While the dialogue frames the transition to faith as an intellectual evolution, it ultimately substitutes rigorous skepticism with the psychological comfort of a love-based narrative. It is a polished exercise in narrative apologetics that prioritizes emotional resolution over objective epistemological inquiry.
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The Journey of Discipleship - an Atheist Retrospective with @ApostateProphet!Added:
Okay. So, Rvan, otherwise known as Apostate Prophet or AP for short, um, welcome and thank you for giving us your time.
>> Thank you.
>> So, um, we're >> thank you, Bob. I appreciate that. Sorry about that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no worries. Um, it's, um, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Um, we're going to be talking about your sort of journey in faith.
Um, you know, how's that going? And um the the the aim of this conversation is to discuss disciplehip and and and it's aimed um for people that are watching.
It's aimed for all of you new Christians out there, you know, because Rid Van's a new Christian and it's uh a journey and it's a journey that that as a community we take together. So um to get the ball rolling, do you want to maybe tell us a little bit about your life as a Muslim?
>> That's a very long story. Are you sure you want to do that or >> just like just tell us a little bit about All right. To sort keep it to to qualify it then and to shorten it down.
Tell us something good about your life as a Muslim, something ugly about your life as a Muslim, and something that you know is um like uh that that that is mixed.
>> Okay. Okay. I'll keep it under 40 minutes. Um something good about my life as a well something good about it is that um one thing that I actually appreciate is that I was uh raised with some sense of um respect for what I uh was told to believe in >> and what I did believe in. To be fair, I don't think that this works in uh in with with many Muslims, but for me it was always a very important thing. Even when I wasn't very devout as a Muslim, I um and even if I like engaged in behaviors and things that I wasn't supposed to do as a Muslim, in the back of my mind, I was always um I always thought I have to have respect for for Allah, respect for what I believe in.
And um it's it's quite funny actually, something that I carry with me to this day. Uh I would always make sure even if I don't practice Islam properly always to uh to say the name of Allah to say bismillah in the name of Allah before I take a bite of anything or before I take a sip of anything.
>> It's actually a very very difficult habit to shake off. I still find myself today taking a bite and >> before you take communion >> nowadays I find myself taking a bite and going bis what am I doing?
So um but you know a sense of respect and um >> uh reverence for something that is ultimately false and um but still even if it is false the respect is something that you can learn and then take into a good direction when you have something >> something that that ingrained respect is still part of who you are today.
>> That's a good thing. What what what would be an ugly thing?
>> Where should I begin?
>> Pick pick one that's relevant to you when you were a Muslim.
not one that you would use now as a palemicist story.
>> So, um that's actually a very good very good way to approach it.
I think one of the one of the best ways was that or one of the one of the things to highlight that bothered me the most was that Islam basically teaches you to um you know in Christianity there is this relationship that the that the that the that the person the human has with with God that the man has with God and um and you have a you have more of a loving relationship more of a a relationship of compassion where where God does not expect you to be um you know absolutely and completely blame free. You are human and that side is acknowledged and you do your best and you live in a sinful world and all that and um it it is more like an understanding a loving relationship between a father and a child. Whereas in Islam it was more um it was more like a relationship between a slave master and a slave or like a like a brutal trainer and a and a trained animal basically. So um it is very painful and I I think it also contributes to um the frustrations and the you know the the personalities that um that Muslims reflect all around the world and that I also reflected when I was a Muslim that uh whenever you do something that you are not supposed to do or you fail to do something that you ought to do as a Muslim, you are basically taught that um for for for listening to music for example or for going into an environment you're not supposed to go into or saying things that you're not supposed to say that you are going to be brutally punished for that by Allah >> that you're going to be uh burned possibly for just doing one minor thing.
You're going to be burned for years or for for generations in hell and he will torture you which is described in very graphic ways in the Quran. Um and you know there is there is very little hope for Muslims themselves according to Islam that they will just because they are Muslims or because they are good Muslims they would you know go directly to to heaven. It teaches that even most Muslims will you know uh probably go and burn in hell for quite a while before they are admitted into heaven. Uh and uh what you basically learn is that it is a it is an extremely and brutally fear-based system >> where you are disciplined by a tyrant and um it always bothered me uh even when I was doing my prayers for example at some point um it bothered me that you know it says for example that you if you pass wind during a prayer or after evolution it might be invalidated. So it makes you paranoid about whether your prayer is accepted or not and you don't want to be insufficient in front of Allah because he's a brutal tyrant basically.
>> So um that that teaches some that teaches people a very a very messed up psychologically manipulative and oppressive uh system to live by and I think that was very torturous when I was a Muslim. I think that is one of the that is possibly the ugliest thing.
>> Yeah. It all I mean it also makes Allah's mercy not worth the paper that it's written on. You know, Allah the most merciful is still sending your head to hell anyway, no matter how much you've repented, you know. Um, and it's often struck me here that that the the vision of God in Islam is a bit of a neurotic fetishist, you know, um, who who is psychopathic and um, a bit like fickle and a bit like Pablo Escobaresque, you know, he'll let you in or he'll not let you in and it's all down to how he wills and you have no certainty about what he's going to do anyway. you know there were lots of um I don't want to spend spend time uh complaining about the way I was brought up you know I was I was raised but um >> well you will find this you will find this commonly among uh you know people who are raised in religious Muslim families um that the raising is done with uh with some with with inappropriate forms of discipline a constant breathing down your neck a constant uh checking of whether you're doing things right or not and then uh you know harsh discipline in return and all that and um you know I I certainly uh did suffer a lot of that uh as I was growing up. But as as later on I uh left the religion and um went further out into the world and began you know understanding how Islam is and how it differs from other systems of and systems of belief. I kind of um I I I realized that so much of how Muslims treat their children and and Muslims treat each other is a quite natural result of how their God treats them.
>> Yeah.
>> It's you know um you say that uh hurt people hurt people you know there's a cycle of oppression and all that. And >> do you do were you were you a Sunni or Shia Muslim?
>> Sunni.
>> Was this in Turkey that you were raised or somewhere else? Uh I was raised mostly in Germany but at the age of 16 or almost 16 and 15 we moved to Turkey where I was where I then lived for uh 10 years or >> and and what was it that got you moving out of Islam and into atheism?
>> That's a very difficult question but uh >> just a short summary because we're that's the main substance is later.
So I had a very good good relationship with a a person that I loved a lot which was who was my my aunt um my father's younger sister and um she was basically like an older sister to me like the sister that I never had and um at some point she was brutally murdered by her um husband with whom she was trying to uh separate because of all his uh oppressive and threatening behavior and all that. So um she was very dear to me and very close to me and when I when I um and we had conversations a lot about the meaning of life and she was kind of like a you know what you call a free-spirited woman and all that and um but she was also exploring uh belief and was thinking of maybe we should go back to maybe we should we should be devout and religious and all that when she was killed uh it was a great shock to me and I kind of went into the wrong direction when she was killed instead of being pushed away I kind of was turned more toward Islam and be uh became devout and practiced. But that that that devotion also led to me sitting down and uh lovingly really lovingly with devotion reading the Quran and exploring what it is that I that we believe in and reading it in a language I don't uh reading it in a language that I that I actually understand because most Muslims don't read the Quran in in a language that they know.
>> They recite it in Arabic because that's what's what's considered virtuous. Yeah.
Uh but I read it and um it's funny my father once came and asked me what I'm doing and I said I'm reading the Quran.
Uh and he told me that it's not uh not advisable to read it by myself in Turkish and that I should rather ask other people. And >> I thought that was quite quite an interesting thing to say. But as I read it, I I had more and more questions about um >> about how Islam describes the world around us and how it treats people and all that. And very long story short, we'll talk about this of course again, but uh I read it a second time and by the third time that I read it to get better answers. After asking lots of people, I thought I can't really do this anymore. So I allowed myself to I basically had the idea if I have questions uh I shouldn't be asked or told to suppress my questions as Islam basically instructed.
>> Did you find that people were saying don't ask that question?
>> Yeah. Don't think about it. don't think about it. Uh these are doubts. These are just brought to you by by evil forces and all that. And I thought it's it's Allah says in the Quran that he created >> uh you know me and my mind and all that.
So why wouldn't I be why would he judge me if I ask questions and go to their and once I opened that door it was basically game over. And epis and epistem epistemologically if something is true it should be able to stand up to question >> because truth is that which corresponds to reality. So if a worldview is collapsing under investigation it's a big sign that that worldview isn't the truth.
>> Exactly. So how did you end was it just automatic then that you went into atheism or did you arrive at atheism through some process of thought like how did you end up getting into atheism?
>> When you leave Islam this is very common among uh across uh you know people who leave Islam. When you leave Islam you end up very frustrated and very angry at the world because you are raised with this very strict adherence to this thing that is that defines everything in your life. you are supposed to be loyal to the to to Islam to Muslims. You know, when you leave Islam, it's not like you just ended a relationship with with God.
It's yet you have betrayed your parents, your nation, everything.
>> And so everything is built on that. And once that um is pulled from under your feet, it it is extremely frustrating. I thought everything that I thought life was about is it's gone now. What am I supposed to do?
>> I was angry. So um I wasn't sure exactly about the existence of God for about a year or so after I left Islam. I kept thinking about it and um I I did read glimpses of uh the Bible and I thought I don't really know I don't really know if this is I need to be 100% sure that something is true before I commit to it once again. So I rejected it and um I kind of went into the direction of concluding that God is basically just a human construct that humans came up with in order to explain the things that they cannot explain out in the world. And um I I I stuck with that and it was it was very funny because my my general mindset was um humans are ignorant and unreliable sources of information. We don't know what's at the bottom of most of the you know the oceans. We we have explored like we haven't explored most of it. We don't know what's out there.
How can how can humans know whether there is a god or not? I can't trust them.
>> So I thought we are unreliable. We don't know anything and this is just some explanation. I just don't believe it. I have to have 100% proof. The funny thing is you approach nothing in life that way. Nothing in life you approach with I need 100% proof.
>> True.
>> So but I I didn't see that for the longest time.
>> It's a rhetorical tool of the atheist community, isn't it?
>> Yeah. Yeah. But that's basically the direction I went. And um at first I was frustrated and angry at uh religion in general for a for a year or so. And then I started um understanding again and sympathizing with the belief in in God.
Even when it comes to Muslims, I always I did and and to this day I think when I see somebody devoutly praying >> in Islam, I think that's a what a nice thing.
>> Yeah. But still uh considering what they are how they're praying and what they're praying to and what they believe in, it's just uh it is it is detestable and needs to be it needs to be needs to be called out.
>> But I've I've had great respect for Christianity and often thought to myself, I wish it was true.
>> But I just couldn't believe in it. So that's that's what kept me >> and and then you made you you made quite a reputation for yourself as an atheist, you know. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how you ended up becoming a spokesperson for atheism?
>> I never really considered myself a spokesperson for atheism.
>> Oh, was it or were you just a critic of Islam?
>> Yeah, I was more a critic of Islam.
>> Just more of a critic of Islam. Okay.
So, we'll we'll park that then. So, >> for a minute. So, so tell us a bit about what what was your life how was your life different as an atheist versus how it was as a Muslim? What was the sort of contrasts between atheist Riddvan versus Muslim Riddan?
>> Contrast is a very good word because um when I was a Muslim, I was very um suppressed and oppressed by my Islamic system that I had to adhere to. Um when I left Islam, I was frustrated by all the oppression and everything. I thought I was oppressed by nothing basically. And um now that I do not have that anymore that I can explore the world and explore my mind properly.
I want to make sure as an atheist that I that every single thing that I was taught I want to lay out and analyze for myself.
>> But also every single thing that I was told that I cannot do, I might just go ahead and see if it's if it's if it's good, if it's bad, and just enjoy it and live my life and have freedom and maximize liberty and happiness and all that. And that was basically kind of like the the direction I was going. And um you know with with Islam it was kind of the the religion oppressing me. And when it when it came to Christianity it was more um me basically oppressing the good side of myself by maximizing ironically u the goals of freedom and and happiness. M >> and um I I think that as an atheist I I I I really did um aspire to be to try everything to do anything that I want to be to explore things as much as possible to seek happiness and freedom but there is really nothing out there that satisfies the human >> in the no matter what you do you always end up wanting and you always end up uh with with a sense of dissatisfaction with a sense of regret and emptiness.
>> Yeah.
>> Was it was it fair to say that your life became a bit experiential in pursuit?
>> And so it was like, oh, I've not had this experience, so now I'm going to have this experience. I've not had that experience.
>> Yeah.
>> And and and the more you push out on those boundaries, the more it kind of feeds a fire that desires more fuel. And the more fuel it demands, the more life it drains out of you. And the more life it drains out of you, the emptier it feels. Is that is that a fair description or was that not how you experienced it or >> I think that is quite fair. I think that is quite fair. It's um and I noticed this myself um and I started I started studying psychology taking psychology courses and it's it's basically what psychology uh tells you which is that there is nothing nothing in life that will um or that that that you want that will actually end up uh giving you ultimate satisfaction that you're looking for. Because whenever you have a desire for something, you are basically just being fooled >> by your own senses, by your own mind that okay, I just need this. But once you do get that, you you get a you get a temporary sense of satisfaction and then it will it will come back again. And then oh, I actually want this, >> I actually want that. And it keeps going on like that. And uh after a while, you you start becoming a slave to your desires and your wants.
>> Yeah. And then also becoming a slave to your desires and your wants and not having a a a a safe space of refuge and having no grounding in in something good being basically in a dark world just chasing your desires.
>> It it it leads to a very dark state of mind.
>> Yeah. And so as part of that you ended up becoming a a critic of Islam. So since we touched on that, we'll just close that cupboard very quickly. What was it that made you a critic of Islam and and why did you decide to pursue that as part of your atheist life rather than just go on and live a atheist life as it were? Why why get involved in a fight necessarily that you didn't need to have?
>> Well, I was always a little bit um reckless, I guess. Um, I know lots of people who leave Islam don't want to speak out against it, don't want to criticize it because they don't want to burn bridges. They don't want to put themselves in danger and all that. And I've always had the tendency to just say what I think and to point things out if I think they're wrong. And I'm not trying to depict myself as a hero.
People call me the most humble for a reason.
>> Oh yes. I've I've experienced only minutes with you and I've completely convinced you're one of the most humble people in Christendom.
But um um but so >> the Pope messaged me just last week. He was saying Ran's so humble. You really must talk to this guy.
By the way, I I don't know if you know, but I'm secretly a Jesuit priest. So >> Oh, nice. I didn't know that.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feature in a number of chick flat chick tracks. Um so go ahead. So what what what was um I I was in a state uh during in the year that I left Islam or you know the year after that I I did think I looked online for answers you know and I explored these online um social media platforms and conversations and what I frequently and repeatedly saw were uh attacks by atheists against Christianity >> against Christians >> and there was very very little that actually addressed Islam and even then at the time I thought this is just wrong you know this is Christianity. You might think that Christianity is wrong. You might think that Christianity is false.
You might think whatever you want, but Islam is an actual political giant threat that will kill you if you allow it to >> to to encroach and to do whatever it wants. And um but the the one motivating uh greatest factor that actually pushed me toward wanting to speak out was I grew up as a Muslim and I heard all my life about our goals and our beliefs and our missions and about the prophecies and about how >> uh the the the non-Muslims and the enemies of Islam are basically our enemies and we ought to fight them and we ought to prepare for it and all that >> and um it's it's very common very commonly known among Muslims and then Muslims go out into the world and speak to non-Muslims in their language in English and it's suddenly, oh, you know, we're just we're just regular people who just believe and we're just like you and me. It's like, >> yeah, the the new atheist community, I mean, cosmic skeptic probably best embodies this. He's very cowardly when it comes to standing up to Islam. Um, but very verbose when it comes to criticizing Christianity. And I think he represents well the the the new atheist community which is pretty much dead now apart from Ayan Hersy Ali who when she was an atheist she's also a sister in the Lord now um you know apart from Iron Hersy Ali very few atheists were willing to criticize Islam and I don't think we need to spend much time exploring that it's obvious because it's it's cowardice you know >> and with >> picking on Christianity is the easy target >> because Christians will love you rather than bomb you know, >> with Cosmic Skeptic Alex Oconor. Um, I still have a lot of love for him. I think he's he's a he's a brilliant, smart guy. I've talked to him personally quite a bit. We were set to do something together on Islam. And that was around that time that he made his final video about Islam and then deleted it and said that he doesn't want to talk about it again. M >> um so I was in touch with him and I was and I I was in touch with him and asked him why that happened and he explained it to me a little bit and it was very much about personal anxieties and concerns because he got multiple threats that became very credible to people that are around him that he loved and all that >> which is why he decided it's not worth it I can't do this anymore >> and and this is you need something you need some bigger reason to stand up against Islam because it does come with dangers and you know for a Christian to die is Christ and to live is gain. So we can't be intimidated in the same way that the atheist community has.
>> That's that's true. I mean um I think that the the fact that there is a threat and that there are so many people who violently and in a threatening way, you know, oppose this and try to stop us. It just motivates me even more.
>> Yeah.
>> It because I think this is this is a righteous thing to do. This is a good thing to do and I want to do. So, how did you end up how did you end up moving out of atheism and into Christianity?
Again, we're going to have to do a short story. So, like maybe maybe pick up on the the first thing that got you going, hm, I need to maybe think differently about this and then maybe cut to the bit where it was like, yes, Christianity is true.
So um two years ago or nearly three years ago at the end of 2023 when um the attack happened by uh Hamas against Israel. It was like um I was awake. I followed it all. It was pretty pretty terrible, pretty messed up. Um as a a few months after that I went up to I went to Israel. At that point I was still an atheist. Um I did go to Israel and I started uh despite the fact that the whole whole trip was just all about exploring what's really happening there and all that. Um so I did go to the to the western wall. As I was there I um started thinking about the history of it all the history of the of the temple and everything and I went up there and explored that place and um went to the church of the holy sephiler which was incredible and um with engaging with religious people over there primarily at that point with religious Jews was quite interesting to me. I thought uh all my life I was told to or I was told that that these people are monsters to demonize them. The world demonizes them and I go there and this is like the kindest place that I've ever been. It's like people are being people are incredibly kind, incredibly good and they say thank you for coming. You can now say whatever you want about us but it's good that you came here and all that. I thought there is something something so interesting about uh people demonizing this group but then this group not being worth demonizing at all. M >> and then uh their connection to the land it it it got me at first into exploring Judaism. I thought uh there there is much about this place and this this spirit that is quite compelling that is unlike anything out there.
>> So I got into I started getting into Judaism and was actually uh exploring a possible conversion to Judaism >> because I I started thinking that maybe I am wrong about the world. Maybe there is more to it. So I I I declared myself a little bit of an agnostic at that point. Um I was exploring. I got invitations from Jews to go and attend some of their things and all that. And uh I was going into that direction until one day I was um at that point I was only reading the Old Testament, you know, only reading the the Jewish Bible until at some point I was asked to read a passage from Romans because it related to it was relevant to Jews.
>> So I sat down and started reading it and I found it so fascinating that I thought, "Wait a minute, I want to read this entire thing." Yeah.
>> So I started Romans from the beginning and um the way it was the way it is written, the way it is narrated by the Apostle Paul is just um it was it felt like it's it's it's like some it's like nothing I've ever read. I thought it was >> beautiful. And the relevant part that I was uh asked to read was basically Romans 9 through11 which was where you can see how he describes the Jews who are unbelieving in Christ and who are even persecutors. He describes them as, you know, opponents for the gospel's sake. But still, it starts with uh that he has so much love for them, for his fellow Israelites by flesh >> that if he could, he would give up his own salvation to save them.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh it is full of love for those that persecute him and his people. And I thought, this is just this is incredible. It's not like anything else.
Certainly not like Islam. Um as I explored the writings of Paul further and also passively was listening to um the the gospels.
>> Yeah.
>> I then I heard about this for many years but I encountered the whole um the the in another text of Paul um of the apostle Paul uh as he says um that 500 of us have seen >> Jesus you know as he rose from the dead and was among us. And um I heard I heard it before, you know, there were 500 witnesses, but it didn't really mean anything to me. I thought it's just from a text, you know, what do we care what a text says? That is that we can't establish that 500 people actually saw it.
>> But uh thinking about the context of it, he he doesn't use it as an argument that this is true. He just reminds people, you know, 500 of us have seen this.
>> Nobody objects to it. It is a it is an actual historical letter that he that he wrote to a congregation of people >> of 500 people witnessing Jesus. And um there are no objections to it, no reputations to it. Nobody says uh what are you talking about? Nobody we didn't see such a thing.
>> Yeah.
>> And I thought this is quite this is we believe in a lot of things in history for which we have very very little evidence.
>> True.
>> And here you have a solid piece of evidence corroborating with other people and there is literally there is no reputation to it and we can historically attest that these writings do belong to Paul and that he did write those things to his congregations. So, um, it made me think >> and where pagan authors or non-Christians write on interface with the the Christ story, >> they don't actually disisconfirm anything, but they confirm even if they oppose. Yeah.
>> It's like Christ was crucified. He was a wonder worker, but he was doing it through magic that he learned in Egypt.
You know, it's kind of like so they they they engage with the they, you know, like the the body was stolen. and that's why the tomb was empty. So all the the sort of counterarguments that exist in antiquity, you know, and there are counterarguments to different parts of the Christian story, but they all accept the basic premises of Christ's story as being true. and even the Jewish um the Jewish sources, the the most the most um hostile or the most uh strong opinions among the early Jewish accounts and writers uh in response to Christianity because in the early centuries it was just basically a big fight between the Christians and the Jews that broke out.
>> Their response was basically that Jesus was uh that Jesus did do actual supernatural things but that he was a magician.
>> Yeah. Yeah, that was the charge that was thrown at him even by Celsius.
>> It wasn't that he uh that that these are just exaggerated accounts of something that never happened. It was that he was a magician which is why you know we shouldn't be deceived by it.
>> Yeah.
>> So um this led me to exploring Jesus more and to read the gospels and um I I came to more and more as an atheist I always thought that Jesus is a wonderful respectable figure and I have uh much respect for that figure. I just don't believe that he is he's you know what what Christians believe about him. Um but it was after that time um that I started actually giving a chance to um reading Mere Christianity by CS Lewis which I always thought quite lowly of without actually reading it. uh and um >> as you do >> and there is a section where he very very nicely addresses the entire sentiment that is so common which is oh Jesus was surely a great teacher >> he was very respectable he was great but you know he just wasn't >> God or you know anything and he actually addresses that directly >> and says that um that having that mindset is actually an insult to Jesus because um if you claim to respect Jesus and claim to claim to say that he's a very that he was a great a great scholar worthy of respect and all that but that he's not God then you are basically you know accusing him of lying or of being deluded for example >> um so it it is a it is a very interesting approach all of this just led me to more and more explore what Christianity is and uh and the story of Christ and um how he shows himself in the world and then the anthropological aspect which is um that Christianity stands thought so uniquely in the world among world religions.
>> Yeah.
>> That is um where where you usually find that God is across religions glorified as this uh powerful masterful being that is far above everything and he's he's being reverted because of his great power and might and all that. And in Christianity, you have God himself, >> taking on flesh uh coming and becoming not just you, becoming the lowest of you becoming condemned, >> dying, >> becoming powerless, hated >> for you, >> rising up and basically reaching out to you and you know, >> which is often the st biggest stumbling block for a lot of people. Muslims often chuck that out and say, "How can I worship a god that's so weak?" And um you know we not get on to it too much but for me my reply is why would you want to not worship a god who's motivated by his love that he does present himself in this weak state rather than this fickle despot of a god who can't even be bothered to come and talk to you and just sends messengers and then is fickle and decides that he's going to do random judgments for random people based on random things like if a woman loses loses three kids, she gets to go to heaven. But if you only lose two, you're going to spend some time in hell. You know, it's just like, you know, I'll take the loving weak god over the despot tyrant any day of the week.
Sorry.
>> And it's a great misation. No, that absolutely. And it's a great misrepresentation which is um >> they make it look like either uh knowingly or unknowingly I would say often unknowingly they make it look like um that that God is actually weak and that God was actually exposed to you know that God was uh had to be weak. But it's it's that's not the point of it.
It's that true >> God doesn't have to be subjected to anything. God doesn't have to do any of these things. But it is God himself who chooses who chooses for for us for our sake and for his glory >> and by his love.
>> Yeah.
>> To um this was one of the most >> it is still to me the most beautiful things about about our Christian faith.
The the incarnation the >> the the God becoming a baby emptying himself.
>> Yeah. becoming subjected to everything that we are subjected to and more >> subjected to more than most of us are subjected to >> becoming weak suffering >> to show us a path >> to suffer for us to say hey I >> and was that the is that the thing that what was the crunch point at which you want which you thought I've got to commit to this I've got to commit to the Lord Jesus you know I need to as CS Lewis said get on my knees and admit that reluctantly there is a god. You know, CS Lewis described himself as the most reluctant convert in England. you know.
So, for me it was um I went to church and I um it was an Orthodox church that I went to and um I spoke to a to the priest after the second time and spoke to a monk that was there and I basically I told them look I really I really like this. It gives me a sense of fulfillment. I I see that there is >> meaning in this. I see that there is safety in this. I have been basically on a on a I I have told people as an atheist all the time I'm very very happy but I was suffering the entire time and just being thrown around in nothingness >> and um going toward a path of d of self-destruction and I really like what I have here in the church and in Christianity and what I believe about what what I see in Jesus and what he represents but I have questions and the biggest issue is that I still have this skeptical commitment which is that unless I know it is for certain true I cannot commit to it. So I had a conversation with the monk and he basically in like a five-minute speech which I can never possibly uh >> replicate >> replicate he turned my whole world upside down and basically explained to me in the nicest and kindest way possible that I'm basically uh drowning in arrogance >> and um in an amplification and a worship of my own mind and my own knowledge and my own wisdom and intelligence.
>> Yeah. and that uh that in the end however I do not realize that I will be left with nothing except just death and nothingness >> and all of it will be for nothing >> and so maybe it is time to simply sit down and accept that I do not know everything and that I cannot grasp everything and to and to sit down and listen and have humility. Yeah.
>> And he said this like in the in the in the most in the kindest ways that you can imagine.
>> Beautiful. And um it's funny because I had that mindset for 10 years until that point and suddenly it was turned upside down and I thought you're right.
>> Yeah, >> it's time to stop putting myself and my knowledge and everything. I was basically worshiping myself and my knowledge.
>> Um I I wanted to show off to everyone that I that I know things. Yeah.
>> It was what I valued the most in life.
And I thought, >> you're right. It's time to sit down, be quiet, and to listen more and to take it in. So, >> you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
>> And I I and I began praying and um and and I and I began to see the impact of what it does for me and how it guides me.
>> And the priest suggested that that I read the Gospel of John attentively. And I did. And it made me even more uh love Christ and more understand the the the way he is and what he does.
And and I realized that for for 10 years I was always given a misrepresentation of what Christianity is.
>> Yes.
>> By the secular and atheist culture.
>> And maybe and this is not an accusation, not enough of an explanation from the Christian side of how it actually is. I also probably didn't listen very well. I I think I think there is a a problem within the church that the church is not um out there enough speaking up for itself and often lets other people represent it how they want to rather than owning the job of representing itself. Um I also think there's a lot of absorbed liberal guilt, you know, around standing up for our Christian faith that we've got to drop off. So you've been a Christian now for how long?
It's been I think almost a year and a half.
>> A year and a half. And how would you say your life has contrasted as from being a Christian to when you were being atheist? You've already touched on the fact that you you had intellectual pride as an atheist. So I'm I'm guessing and and I've already experienced your profound humility. I mean it's incredible. Um it's it's almost saintly.
It's glowing. Um, but like how else how would you contrast your life as a Christian to your life as an atheist?
>> I have peace and I have I have um I have something to to live for to look at.
>> I was um I was obsessed with happiness and um and all that and I I never found it >> as an atheist. I was just chasing it the whole time, which is very ironic. And um I was always anxious, quite anxious. And today I'm I'm I'm at peace. When I when I fail, when I have moments of failure, which is basically every day, >> I uh I have a I I I have a um I have somewhere to, you know, feel safe and to seek help and to remember what I live for.
>> Yeah.
>> What I who I am, what my nature is.
>> Yeah. I can ask for forgiveness, for help. I can repent.
>> And it's it it brings the light back into my life that I basically uh blocked out for 10 years.
>> Yeah.
>> Um it brings the hope back to me that I blocked out for 10 years. It brings the genuine love back into my life that I kind of um that was very very shallow >> as an atheist.
>> Yeah.
>> And it as an atheist it was all about basically the glorification of yourself.
Yeah. and and the reliance on your own on your own capacities and now there is more to it. It's actually it's actually easier in a way.
>> It's a broadening out of life, isn't it?
Yeah. Of the existential journey. It's like it is it is at it is at once it is at the same time difficult to be a Christian >> but also easier in an internal way because I don't have to um I don't have to think that I am basically I have these great responsibilities of bearing the burdens of the entire world on my shoulders and I can do everything and and all that I can accept that I can't actually do everything >> that I am not actually fantastic and great that God is great and that I need to ask him for help because I can do nothing on my own.
>> Amen.
>> As the Apostle Paul says, >> and um I think it's it's it is beautiful. I I don't know how how else to say this. Beautiful.
>> Yeah. Um so I I mean as a Christian, you know, the the the Christ doesn't call us to make converts. He calls us to make disciples.
And disciples are people that obviously learn the way of their Lord. They don't recast Jesus in their image, but they seek to conform their image to Christ.
So, what has been some of the challenges that you've encountered on that journey?
Like what are what are the the the the Yeah. What are some of the challenges that you've encountered on that journey in terms of your own personal disciplehip?
>> So, it's a very interesting uh thing since I went to the or since I have been going to the Orthodox church. The Orthodox Church is a very distinct way of approaching the whole thing, the whole situation based on a passage in uh or is it second Peter, first Peter about how um he became uh one of us so that we may uh participate in in him and all that. Um >> that we might participate in the divine nature.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Theosis.
>> Yeah. It's in it's in one of the epistles of Peter.
>> Yeah.
>> I think it's in I think it's in second Peter chapter one. Yeah. Yeah. Um it's it's one of the more of the core uh ideas in the Orthodox Church of uh of deification, of glorification, of being being godlike, of partaking in in what God is. And uh >> and and that transformation happens throughout your entire life and then beyond it. So uh when you when you believe in Christ, you don't simply just become something different. you start the process of becoming >> like like Christ like God as he became like us and um it's a very very interesting way of approaching it and of teaching it. I still don't know if I fully and truly understand it >> and I see how how it is how the how that is understood across Christian uh you know denominations and churches and communities and all that. But um the way I see it is that um when I first started becoming when I first became a Christian, I thought okay now my life has changed. I have not I now have to put everything bad aside and never do it again >> and now become uh a perfect Christian and devote myself to it >> and then after a while it turns out it actually it actually doesn't work that way because you are still in a in an imperfect sinful world and you are just sinful and lacking. So yeah, I think I think the best way it could be described for those that are new is that it's the heart of Christian spirituality is repentance. Repentance >> is the engine that drives you forward in your journey to become like Christ. And it it touches it's meant to touch upon every aspect of our life. all of our habits, all of our behaviors, all of our words, all of our actions, all of our prejudices, all of our hopes, all of our aspirations, all of our sentiments, all of our aesthetics, all of our um you know, every every pattern of mind to be conformed to Christ. And the way that he encounters it is that as you as you repent of something, it opens up a new area of thought that you might not have encountered before. You might never have considered it before, you know. Um, and so then you can start to explore what it means to repent in this. And then that opens up other avenues and other directions. Another way you could kind of summarize it is just to Christianize every part of your life.
you know, what flowers do I put up? What what flowers do I decorate my home with?
You know, as as a Christian, that there is a way that you can think about that, you know. Um, and the church has developed patterns, instruments, rhythms, and its own culture that you can tap into and and draw from on on your own sort of existential journey, you know. And that's kind of how I I think of it in my own in my own journey of repentance.
>> One of my greatest struggles is um and I don't talk about this. This is probably the first time that I'm actually talking about it, but uh it's because I I I often do not know how to really talk about these things or I don't um I don't talk about my faith enough at the moment because I think I'm not in a position right now to talk about it. Um and I'll leave it to others. I'm here to learn and all that. But um one of the greatest struggles for me as a new Christian who amplified pleasure over everything for so long is uh >> I I I look at at Christians, I look at others, I look at all these devout uh people and I see that um I see that so many people are good Christians. They are exemplary people. And I know of sure of of course you can say you know that that's surface underneath it might be much worse and all that. However, um evidently so many people are out there that that I really admire as fantastic Christians who don't have all these all these uh you know uh urges or all these hobbies or all these things that I spent my time with and um I wish I could be more like them >> but I just happen to be um so drowned from my past in uh maximizing pleasure and happiness.
>> Yeah. that um after the initial joy of becoming a Christian, your your your habits come back to you and then you and then you you deal with it and it starts feeling like I I start feeling like >> I am not just not good enough, I'm also bad.
>> Yeah.
>> I how can I be better? How can I be a >> well recognizing recognizing that sin is bad and that sin operates in our flesh is actually a good revelation because that recognition helps to propel you forward to change. And I think often a lot of our most deeprooted habitual sins are connected to um our childhood, you know, issues connected to our childhood.
Um and a lot of it um a lot of the process of repentance in my own experience has been about about using my imagination, refraraming things, you know, um and also re-evaluating things because often sins are uh as Aquinus says and as CS Lewis says, they they they point towards something that is good because we're driven by this natural a law that directs us to that which is good, but it's often um it it's of it's towards a a good, but it ends up pointed at the wrong end. So often, you know, the pursuit of sexual pleasure, you know, that that's pointing towards procreation, having a family, having a a stable family. Um and but it ends up going down a culde-sac, you know. Um and we then can end up valuing the experience so highly or valuing a a a a particular experience so highly that it becomes dominating and as you said enslaving and through the use of our imagination and allowing ourselves to learn from the pattern of Christ as revealed in scripture and as embodied by the the saints both both in the past and Today we can start to re-evaluate the value that we give to things and start to restructure in our mind our value system and and tell ourselves a different kind of story about who we are and who we want to be.
And meditative tools can often help us in that. So, for example, you know, one meditative tool that I'd encourage you to do if you haven't done it already is to write your own obituary.
Write your obituary. Um, imagining what kind of life you want to live so that people tell this obituary about you, but be frank and honest with yourself. So I did this exercise for myself and I discovered that there were things that I wanted in my obituary that actually were not compatible with Christianity. We're not compatible with a walk with Jesus.
And then that allowed me to identify something that I needed to then work on in my own life. And God willing, if I ever do that exercise again, I'd write a different kind of obituary.
you know, reflection on death is often a good tool to help us to reflect upon um, you know, what's important and to help us to re-evaluate our our life structure.
>> I love that.
>> I love it.
>> I It's It's It's a practice that's um, you know, seen in the church like in the monasteries. I don't know if in the monastery that you went to, they kept the bones of the other monks.
>> Yeah. Um, and you you've got these um these pictures in I think it's in the Renaissance where they they do pictures of skulls on tables with flowers that are dry and dead and I think they're called I forget what they called now memorial something memorial something memorial to death or memory to mortality or something and and this tradition of just reflecting and meditating on death as a way of helping us to focus about what's really important in our life, you know, and I think one of the ways to sort of defeat our passions is to is to fill our lives with meaning.
The more meaning we can fill our lives with as Christians, um the more we can then achieve pleasure from pursuing that meaning cuz you know your body needs pleasure. It needs that dopamine hit. It needs that um that that part of itself, but it needs it to be um to be built upon a life of meaning that then develops its own structure.
Whereas whereas we often use sin as a a shortcut to get pleasures that the hard work and sacrifice put further out, you know. Um, and we use sin as a way of shortcutting to pleasure be in in in higher doses than a steady progression towards a meaningful life can give us. I think it's um it's you know sin was as I said when you asked me about uh the ugliest thing in Islam as a Muslim >> I I I talked about how uh it treats you as a ty as a as a as a as as a you know as a as an animal that needs to be brutally trained and Allah is basically a tyrant and when it comes to Christianity it's not quite like that.
So when I today have my shortcomings and my sins and I um and I feel bad about them and go and and pray and ask for forgiveness and uh try repentance um and all that. It's like it's it's I'm not doing it because I'm >> afraid that uh that God will brutally punish me.
>> I'm I want to I do it because I want to be more like him.
>> Amen. And I want to be more um I want to be more suitable to the person that it's it's like when you go before a before a king >> and you don't want to go as a as a complete >> jerk and you want to go with with with reverence.
>> You want to go with respect. You want to go with love. And you going you want to go in this case if you're actually if you actually have love and respect for that king the king of kings you want to go with genuine with genuine respect genuine love genuine transformation >> it's what what you want to do u I I I like to believe and this is the Christianity that I that I came to uh to understand and to know that as long as I do want that as long as I aim for having, you know, being as respectful and as good as possible that God in his eternal compassionate wisdom will understand the effort that I put into >> and uh and and he knows that I'm merely a broken sinful human being >> and and that that that that vision of God I is what is meant to draw us forward. You know, I one of my one of the reasons why I reject Islam is because Muslims treat Allah as a means to an end. What they want are the joys of paradise and what they want is to avoid the fires of hell. Though virtually every Muslim is going to hell anyway. Allah has decreed it. He says so in the Quran. So what does his mercy count for? But and and and so Allah is just a stepping stone to what you want.
He's not the end in himself. Whereas within the Christian faith, because salvation is a gift that is given to us, merited on Christ's work, not our work.
That that means that we are prep we're drawn forward in thanksgiving.
Um, and we have the confidence to walk to walk towards our father and go, I screwed up. I messed up. Because we're we're going to a loving father to say, I'm sorry. and messed up rather than a tyrannical despot who will maybe forgive us or maybe punish us and we don't know and we have no certainty.
Um and in in terms of helping us to hold on to that vision, the church has given us many instruments, you know, the Bible being the chief of all the instruments of our disciplehip, you know, um icons, art, music, liturgy, and then onto that, you know, there's been other instruments that Christians have created, songs, poems, plays, um processions, And you know of all these instruments for disciplehip which are the which is you know obviously scripture should be of the greatest value um but get taken the fact that you've got scripture what other instruments do you find yourself using for instance I see you carrying some a prayer a prayer is it is it rosary in the orthodox they call it a rosary is a prayer rosary >> it's actually a Catholic rosary >> Catholic rosary so do you are you using these are the kinds of instruments that like >> I I think um so it's very funny uh when I first beca when I first beh started becoming interested in Christianity um I picked up a rosary because I always liked how they look and I always liked so I had a rosary when I was an atheist uh but I didn't use it and I didn't know how to use it until I became a Christian and actually decided to look it up um but I think one of the first practices aside from simply sitting there one day and actually praying genuinely and asking God for guidance was to uh to pick up a rosary and to >> um you know do do a um >> yeah pray the rosary >> and I found that it was very it was a very beautiful practice and um it's one of those things that are that I have grievances about. I guess we can talk about it and I would like to ask your input on that as well.
>> Yeah. Yeah, please. Which >> any questions you want to ask feel free to ask them and we'll talk about them.
There there there are there in our current time some interdenominational fights about that stuff going on and I and I think they're unnecessary.
>> But you know um I started doing the uh the rosary and I thought it it really brought me to appreciate um God and to appreciate Christianity, to appreciate Christ, to get closer to him.
>> And um it drew me to the faith further and further. And uh I I I went to this was a funny thing. I went to my priest and I told him um I want to be part of the Orthodox church but I also really like some Catholic Catholic practices. I like the rosary and he said there is nothing wrong with that. He said there are certain things within it that you know Catholics generally pray when they say that we cannot accept because they contradict with our >> beliefs about about um about the Virgin Mary and all that.
>> But uh aside from those uh doing the rosary prayer and all there is nothing wrong with it. you can continue doing it or you can continue doing it in this way which is how some orthodox saints have done it as well. So I thought hey that's perfect. So >> yeah the the you know the like the rosary is a a a given prayer and and it appeals for um Mary's intercession. I I I use the rosary but the the prayer if I'm going to do any I actually use the chaplet of divine mercy which is a a separate set of prayers and the church has given us and then the saints of the church and the church over 2,000 years has accumulated all of these prayers to assist in our prayer life. Why would we not use them you know and why would we not seek the intercession of people that have gone before us who are alive in Christ or why would we not seek one another's intercession?
>> That's the thing. I mean, I believe that uh I mean, looking from the looking at the scripture, looking at the tradition at the earliest Christians and all that, it's it's evident to me that uh that we believe that the that the saints are are alive and they're in heaven and they and they pray for us. So, what would be wrong with uh with with asking them for their prayer for their for their prayer for us, for guidance?
>> This was done in in most of Christian history.
>> Exactly. Who was Jesus talking to on Mount Table? He's talking to Moses.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Moses was, you know, in quote Mark's dead. how it was done and it goes further in in in in ortho in Eastern Orthodox uh tradition and in the whole teaching of theosis and uh I don't want to butcher it or talk about it remotely because I'm afraid of misrepresenting it but it's basically that uh you know that people who who become saints through their deification through as it is taught in the in in second Peter it's like um they they part they are with God and they partake in the things that God does >> partake in the divine nature >> and so um it it wouldn't be unreasonable at all to by by that say, "Hey, they are with God."
>> They are.
>> I mean, just just to clarify on for those because, you know, and we'll maybe just segue into the denominational stuff like, you know, in in Orthodoxy, it's called theosis. In Roman Catholicism, it's called divonization.
And the Protestants have the same concept. They just call it sanctification.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, and it's not that we become God. It is that we partake in the divine nature, which is what eternal life is. That is the divine nature. And if you're partaking in eternal life, you're partaking in the nature of God. But it's >> uh maybe when we when we put this video together, you should take all the points where I use the wrong word and should use a voice over to the >> correct. We'll keep that. It's like it's like sticking a knife in a fire. If you stick a knife in a fire for long enough, the life will the knife will take on the properties of fire. It will glow red. It will give out heat. It will burn. It will give out light. Um just as a fire does. And so it has taken on the properties of fire without becoming the fire.
>> And so is the idea of theosis. So is the idea of divinization or sanctification.
is that through drawing closer to God, we take on the properties of God, we become more like God, but we don't become God, you know, or it's like holding a candle flame up to the sun, you know, the moment you do that, the flame disappears, you know, but it's still a flame in its own right. Um, I mean, and when when it comes to navigating these denominational differences, I think we've got a triage.
Gavin Uland talks about this really well. He's a Protestant, but he's he's a respectful Protestant. You know, he's um and he argues for a kind of reformation that recognizes that Roman Catholicism is Christianity. he's just picked up accretions, you know, and by that extension, the same logic, I'm sure he would apply to um the Orthodox church.
In fact, I know he does in his books. Um and by by the way, Gavin, if you ever want to talk, I'd love to talk to you, but like um but the point is he triages differences between different denominations.
And there are some things that Christians disagree about that are of little to no importance. Like whether we have communion with flat bread or leavened bread, like it's of little to no importance. Then there are things that are of genuine importance, but they're not things that we really need to fight about, like the cannon of scripture. How many books do we have? Do we have extended versions of this passage or that passage? And these are important. they have an impact, but again, they're not anything really to fight about. And then there are things that are of genuine importance that are worth fighting about. But I tend to find that in my experience that that th those kinds of categories are the things that divide traditional conservative Christians amongst all the denominations.
>> Exactly. from the progressive syncratists in all the denominations, you know, who who have a a much more deeper assimilation to enlightenment liberal culture, you know, and and that's where the real battle line is.
It's not between different denominations. It's between and within each denomination with its own liberal absorption of the liberal enlightenment agenda and uh worldview into Christianity. I have this thing, you know, um it has been one of those one of those things that is that is um that are sometimes disheartening um within my own circles online orthodox Christianity. Um there was always a very hostile attitude towards um those they disagree with religiously on fundamental things.
>> The orthal bros.
>> Yeah. Uh then um there's the Catholic side of it.
There's the aggressive Protestant side of it. Often pushed by certain American Protestants.
>> Yeah. And um and I don't want to badmouth any of them necessarily. It's because, you know, I find it disheartening and counterproductive. I think that there are certain things that I consider very very important that I never ever talk about. But uh for example, the the communion, the Eucharist, I think it's a it's an extremely crucial issue and that if you have the wrong beliefs about it, this is very problematic to me personally biblically speaking. However, I would never think of um therefore adopting a very hostile attitude toward those who, you know, have a have a diminished view of the communion of of the Eucharist.
>> Yeah.
>> Um it's the the way I look at it and the way that it gives me the way that I like to see Christianity is less of a of of an internal hate and fight, but more of a union of people who have >> different perspectives and different approaches. And I also like to believe that um I mean just thinking about the division between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church for example, I think it would be humanly near impossible for the two sides with such growth and such spread to stay completely united. I think it was like it could almost be by design, by God's design that the that the two sides go different ways and do their do their own things in different ways. And um I like to I like to visit Catholic churches. I love the devotion of Catholic clergy.
>> I love the I love Orthodox monastics. I love going to an Anglican church. I love the Lutheran and, you know, how they present themselves and how they worship.
>> I love going to a Baptist church and um and and learning the wisdom of the of the of the, you know, of the Bible from them which they memorize and reiterate.
And >> I appreciate all of it. And um sometimes I I go into a circle and they they try to aggressively pull aggressively pull me out of my own tradition into their tradition. And I just think how about we stop that and we just >> it's it's a culture of poaching. And you know um and there is a way to speak about it from an ecumenical perspective which is that it is poaching because you're not making new converts. You're just drawing someone from one church to another. uh you're drawing from people from one ecclesiastical governance to another ecclesiastical governance. And I think the folly of it um the folly of it starts with a lack of respect for the Jewish origins of the faith, you know, cuz all of the main churches, they're all gentile constructs um of a Jewish movement, you know, and when we get back to basics, we recognize that at bottom, and Hanskung um in his epic tome, the church um points this out quite well is that the church community is always a a community that is responding to the reality of the resurrection in their own time and making real the consequences of the kingdom of God which is brought into the world through the resurrection in their own age. Um but what that has resulted in is that you know like with anything when you practice love consistently enough it crystallizes and forms institutions you know if I go out if I decide to make some bread to go out and feed the poor and I do that regularly enough even if I just do it on the same day give it a year I'll have a team of people working with me I'll have someone have volunteered to let me use their kitchen I'll have a I'll have to put a rotor together I'll have to appoint a team leader, you know, give it 10 years and an entire infrastructure is going to be built out out of that one impetus to go and take a sandwich to a poor person.
And so all of our churches have are are crystallizations of the Christian movement of the practice of the love of God at different times and in different periods. So the Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church and the Church of the East are some of the earliest crystallization the crystallizations of that church movement. The Roman Catholic Church much later but still incredibly early and then Protestant churches increasingly you know into the present.
And this kind of if if we can recognize that that all of our institutional churches are but the creation uh of ourselves and that Christ has called a people to love one another and that by that loving witness to one another, the world will know that the father has sent a son, the son into the world where we emphasize our unity And it doesn't have to be unity that ignores difference. Like >> exactly >> as an Anglo Catholic, I believe in the real presence. And I would argue with someone who doesn't recognize the real presence that they should elevate their vision of the Eucharist.
But there is a point at which you know even the reformed Calvinist who just sees it as a symbol still meets with me in agreement about what the Eucharist is because they at their best will treat it as a somber act of remembrance of the Lord's sacrifice which within our understanding of the Eucharist even though we include the real presence we also remember that it is an act of remembrance of the Lord's passion. And so there's that point of unity right there. And I think we need to emphasize these points of unity more.
>> Yeah.
>> Than these points of difference.
>> Exactly. Exactly.
>> You know, and it's an uphill battle, you know, to try and get that into the church. And I'd encourage you to to to embody that wherever you can find it.
So, it's kind of funny, you know, when you asked me this whole conversation or this this topic here started out with uh uh things that I appreciate about uh you know that are within the church aside from um things that you mentioned. So, the the the the example of the Virgin Mary was one of the first things that that drew me and I thought um I thought it was beautiful. I thought um you look at the gospels and uh and one of the earliest u according to one or two accounts uh >> right the earliest miracle that Jesus uh presents >> in one gospel or >> gospel of John >> yeah is is basically he does it um before he he he says my time has not yet come but his mother the Virgin Mary >> says they need your help and then he goes and does his first miracle.
>> Yeah. It's basically her um intervening and um >> and uh you know seemingly in the text making him make us at first first.
>> Well, I mean she she she appears in the texts of scripture um quite highly and when you remember it is a Jewish text at a time when women were seen to be quite low in society. the fact that she features so much in the texts um she's one of the few people that's mentioned in the list in Acts for instance in Acts chapter one um demonstrates this this radical reinvisioning of the status of women in society and sort of Mary is the first exemplar of that way of reseing women as being part of the ecclesiastical community as as being u someone that God works through >> and it's like uh you God uh he becomes man. He becomes one of us. And uh the person that um plays such a great role that he chooses to have uh to have such love for >> and um personal, you know, dedication to >> and that that plays a role in him showing his his glory to the world >> is is her is the Virgin Mary. And there's something beautiful about it.
And uh I I I always loved that. So the example of of her and you know there is a thing about it. There is a there is a there is a thing where even where I have difficulties as well which is um in in the Eastern Orthodox tradition the role of saints is one that is very very highly elevated. One that I find sometimes a little bit difficult to >> uh relate to. So when I see the saints and when I even see the Virgin Mary, >> it's more that uh it's more that I see a wonderful example and the love of God and the love of you know the the love of God for the the the human and for and the you know the human's love for for God played out and I see a wonderful example in in all that and it's more like an example to follow and something beautiful to remember for me. Um and you know similarly you asked me this question before we before we talked but um when it comes to >> ju just before you ask just before you bring just just to bring up on to talk a bit land on the saints because it is part of our disciplehip you know Paul says this he says you know imitate me as I imitate Christ you know so he's he's literally commanding people in his instructions imitate me you know and you got this beautiful meme that that sometimes people share on X where it's kind of like You see Spider-Man and then you see a man in a really good Spider-Man costume. Then you see someone in a really mediocre Spider-Man costume and then you see someone with like just a hood, a Spider-Man hood that's made out of tea towels. And you know that that phrase, imitate me as I imitate Christ. And in other epistles he he tells you to look up to those that are doing well in the faith. you know, and then he celebrates in Hebrews chapter 11, you know, the great cloud of witnesses and he recounts the stories and he mentions the saints that were suffered in the Makabean revolt, the Makabean martyrs. Um, and so esteeming saintlyhood is is esteeming the saints and and honoring the saints, remembering the saints and learning from their example, you know, is another one of the instruments that we have in in growing.
And so before you come to your your your question, is there any particular saint that that has kind of captured your imagination that that speaks to you that encourages you that you know >> it's very funny because um yes there is one and um that's I learned about that saint when I was a little Muslim kid >> and uh you know I was in Germany. I was raised in Germany. Um and and German schools are um especially for those who are, you know, who are from America, uh they're not not quite secular in the American sense.
>> Uh and you know, religion still uh plays a big role in them. And so I grew up in a um in Germany and uh it was common to sing Christian songs. Yeah.
>> In the in a music class and all that. So um when I was in fifth no when no long before that when I was in first grade and second grade we started uh we we we would sing a song about a certain uh St. Martin >> and um it was a very beautiful song and it's it has been stuck on my mind since then from that age.
>> Do you remember it?
>> But I you want to give us a rendition karaoke >> where it goes like St. Martin St. Martin it's like St. Martin St. Martin um is basically about a little little um part of his life that is recorded in a uh in a writing that is uh written by a friend and contemporary of his.
>> Yeah.
>> Which I didn't know much detail of. All I knew from my childhood from back then as a Muslim child >> uh being taught that Christianity is basically you know evil and bad.
>> Yeah.
>> I was taught about this man named St. Martin who was riding on his horse one night in the cold winter.
>> He saw a peasant >> and he saw a he saw a man who had nothing to wear and he was freezing >> his cloak into >> and he was begging and St. Martin stopped and he cut his own cloak into and gave it to him >> and cover him up and then um and then went away and I didn't know more about this.
>> Yeah, >> that's all I knew. I just thought what a wonderful act of kindness. I mean, the saints are often esteemed because they embody some virtue that we should all seek to esteem.
>> I'm often encouraged by the stories of the martyrs because given the work that I do, you know, and and the possibility that, you know, I might get shot or stabbed at Speaker's Corner or something like that, then, you know, it it's kind of nice to think about the martyrs who have who or get if I get chucked in prison because of our crazy regime of a government.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, >> but that story of St. Martin like the the the act of kindness that was that was amplified to me as a child in a kid's song in a lullaby how it was always uh it was always always very moving it always uh was with me in my mind >> the kindness and the charity and all that and uh >> I I I often sang that song to me even as an adult in my head some to myself and um it's only that that I that when I became a Christian I thought about this again further as I started thinking about saints and I thought St. Martin.
So I decided to look up uh what his story actually is and what he actually did and what the song is actually about.
So then I I encounter his story and from the writings I mean the popular accounts are even are not as as detailed as the actual text is and the actual text is that um so St. Martin is a a soldier in the Roman army uh in the 4th century and um he rides out or 3rd century fourth I don't know um I forget years centuries he rides out at one night um he's he's very interested in becoming a Christian he's a catechuman but he struggles with things he's from a pagan family >> and uh he rides out one night and he's so he has already been charitable enough that he gave his pieces of clothing to other people. This is often not mentioned in popular accounts. So, he has very little little to wear. In fact, aside from a few things on him, his his big cloak, which was very important in the Roman army, is the is the one thing that keeps him warm. But he sees this man struggling. So, uh as he sees him struggling, he without thinking about it, stops and cuts that cloak in half.
And that cloak was a Roman soldier's bed.
>> Yeah.
>> So, he cuts it in half and gives it over to him. Yeah. And the text even says that uh that he basically looked ridiculous as a result because he had nothing else to wear and he was riding around with half a cloak and people started staring and laughing at him.
>> And and and that practice of that practice of doing good is also part of what it is to in our disciplehip if we if we live out sacrifice if we live out sacrifice as pointed towards God's end um it has a transformative impact upon us. It allows the Holy Spirit to work on us more and it helps to instill habits of behavior of self-denial which then clear more space in our life. And so the practice of good works is is something emphasized in scripture, you know, and and and the something that we should seek to pursue with a zealousness, you know. Um, you had a question on the the saints before I or or something. I think it was to do with the saint before I kind of >> I was actually just going to go into this but I but uh it is a related question. So just to conclude that point about St. Martin. So the story ends that he goes that he uh goes back and sleeps that night and then he has a vision of Christ coming to him with that beggar or that Christ is the beggar.
>> Yeah. and that uh that he says this is my servant or this is my this is the catechuman Martin who helped me in my moment of need >> and basically it goes back to what you do to the least of these you do to me >> and I thought and as I found out more about this I thought this is this was with me my whole life and I didn't really understand it until until now so I I thought I wanted to take I wanted to do I wanted to if I take a patron saint to you know get baptized >> have you have you thought of one >> I thought of taking Martin St. Martin.
So >> yeah, >> but um >> but I think I think you know that that that's also true is that we're meant to find God in the way. We're meant to find God in the journey. We're meant to find God in one another. We're meant to find Christ particularly in his body, the church. Um and so when we serve the church, when we serve the community, we should very much see ourselves as serving Christ. And and obviously there is a there is a um a triage of service and it goes to the people with the most needs first, you know, and so the poor of the church, the lonely of the church, the the widows of the church, the orphans of the church, the persecute of the church, you know, require the greatest need and solidarity. And in that you can find an an entire economy of of service, an entire economy of good works, an entire economy of disciplehip because in the prep in the pursuit say of justice for persecuted Christians, um it it will then fall if if that is your calling, if that's what God's called you to do, if that's your vocation, um you're going to find that it involves certain sacrifices you have to make for Christ. um certain disciplines you have to bring upon yourself um to pursue the vocation that God's given you. Um it will pursue you to to to learn the relevant theology, the relevant ethics. Um and it and it will it will begin to transform you, you know, and it will help to put pressure on you to be a good Christian as you as you pursue that particular vocation. And so this is another aspect of of our disciplehip is the practice because as we Christianity is not meant to be a series of intellectual consents. It's meant to be something that we live and we experience and it's in that living and in the experience of it that we learn what it is to be Christian.
>> So I have a final question about that um which is um when it comes to doing good works. Yeah.
>> And abstaining from you know uh committing sin and being a better Christian. We talked about this earlier um you know um saying speaking to God praying uh repenting asking for forgiveness and saying I messed up you know and being better. There is often a misrepresentation in the world uh when it comes to Christianity this misrepresentation comes from certain atheists and from Muslims as well which is that uh in Christianity you can just do whatever you want and then you are forgiven and you and God and God saves you anyway. In others uh from from another circle within Christianity there is a misrepresentation that some of us believe that we have to you know work toward being saved. Yeah.
>> I I believe that as it is very very clear in the scripture that uh that salvation is you know it is by grace it is a gift by God and that our works are not what save us. Yeah. But um what would be a good way to resolve both of these issues, you know, um why works are uh basically why we should be doing good great works despite the fact that they do not uh save us.
>> Yeah.
>> And um why we can't just treat it as oh I can just do whatever I want and I'll be saved anyway.
>> Yeah. I mean like we've got to be clear all churches all Christian churches reject pelagianism. this idea that we somehow work for our salvation or earn our salvation. Um I think within, you know, within the Protestant church, it is that you're saved um through by Christ through faith alone. Sorry, by grace alone, through faith alone, by Christ alone, and you will do good works. And within more Orthodox Catholic circles, it is you're saved by um you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and you should do good works. So, if you can hear the imperative difference between you should and you will, the inevitability of the will and the should, which implies this idea that you you you should do something, but it's not you should do good works for salvation.
It is that you do good works as a part of your disciplehip. It's part of the theos the process of theosis. It's part of the process of sanctification.
But it does count for something because again and again and again and again and again Christ says over and over and over again in scripture and it's repeated in adnauseium that he's that he will reward people according to their works. So, how do you reconcile that with his idea of salvation by faith alone, which all Christians believe in? And it's this idea that your works count for nothing until your works are directed to the appropriate end. And through by grace, through faith alone, in by Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, you're you're you're now directing your good works to the appropriate end. And now your works can count for something whereas before they were just filthy rags before a holy God. And so even though everyone who has placed their faith in Christ will be saved, um those that are saved, the church are going to receive different levels of reward for their good works. So even though a a Christian like the thief on the cross is saved, um a a saint who you know labors for 80 years for the kingdom of God and and and then he's martyed at the end all to the glory of God. That saint's going to receive a greater reward as part of his salvation than the thief on the cross who will also receive salvation but with not as great a reward as that person. Paul puts it in one of his letters. He says that you know you know build on your faith in a way that's appropriate. Build with jewels, build with gold, build with things that last. Don't build with wood and stick and straw because even though you will be saved, you'll be saved as one through fire and you you'll you yourself will still be saved, but you'll suffer a loss. So, if we don't live a life of thanksgiving, and that's why we should do our good works in as as a thanksgiving response to our salvation.
Um, if we don't do that, um, we don't live a life that is dedicated to good works, but it is nonetheless a life of sincere faith, we're not going to receive as rich a reward as we would if we did. You know, we will have suffered a loss of something more that we could have had. Now, you know, to use the analogy of Christ, he says, "In my father's house there are many rooms." Um to to put it in a picture metaphor, it's like everyone that Christ has saved gets a room, but those that have worked for Christ be out of thanksgiving for their salvation will get a bigger room or maybe a room with a nicer TV or do you get do you get where I'm going with that picture metaphor? It's kind of like you get a reward. And so there is real meaning to the works that we have. And it's also a sign and and it's also a sign of how thankful we are.
>> If if if we are truly thankful, why would we not give our life over to God?
>> Why would we not give our life over to the service of God if we're truly thankful?
>> So I'm I'm uh just to clarify, I'm just asking this question for everyone who's watching, not for us. So you and I are literally saints basically. So >> yeah, everyone is everyone is a saint.
>> No, you and I are specifically saints, but everyone else they have all shortcomings. So I'm asking it for >> all right there's that there's that renowned humility coming through again you know but um yeah any any any any final thoughts that you want to share with people who who are watching this maybe who are atheists who are thinking about Christianity who or even ex-Muslims who are not yet Christian and don't and they that that person who's just made you know that year that you were like >> wondering yeah >> before you became an atheist who those kinds of people what would you want to say to them?
>> I would say um specifically to those people who have been fooled by one system and now hate the the rest of the world or are in frustration um just because one has wronged you that doesn't mean that everything else is therefore wrong. It is that uh you have been fooled by something wrong but there is actually something right out there.
You have been exposed to some darkness, but there is light out there. And you don't have to spend the rest of your life in the darkness or in a darkness that is supposedly the absence of darkness.
>> I tried it.
>> It it it doesn't have a good end. It's like a it it is it is meaningless. My greatest I had accepted as an atheist that life is meaningless, that the universe is meaningless. And I thought it is okay.
That's okay. Mean meaning is something that is imposed by religions and all that. It is it is okay to live in a meaningless world and to find you know uh to navigate through it all but it is ultimately meaningless. In my deepest saddest moments I thought uh there is no meaning to it all to it to to any of it.
So there would be nothing wrong with just you know uh giving up hope and giving up my existence. There would be nothing wrong with it. People would be sad right now about it but in in a few generations none of it would matter because none of it really matters and none of nothing will be remembered. Um it is only through coming to the faith which is not simply something that you accept because it is it is nice but something that you accept because it is wellestablished well established historically attested and also meaningful beautiful >> wonderful to walk on and wonderful to walk with that you find meaning that you find the light again so I would say um I don't want to be the only one who participates in this I would love for others to experience it as well And uh don't take me as an example. I'm I'm terrible. And I'm saying this because I'm very very humble, of course. But um there is a great example in um I can't be serious for a second.
>> Try try.
>> But but there is a there is a great example in Christ, a great example in in what he is, in who he is, a great example of what he did for us. Even if you don't believe at first that it is true, >> just think about it as a story, something that he did for us when he did have to do it at all. Something beautiful, something wonderful, something to lift you and me up to reach out to say, "Take my hand >> and come just as I came down to you."
That is absolutely wonderful and beautiful beyond any kind of compassion that I have ever witnessed in my life.
There's something beautiful about it.
And uh respecting the story and loving the story and appreciating the story is of course the first step. And once you once you believe in the story and once you realize that the story is a true story, you you you realize how beyond your comprehension wonderful it is. And I think everyone should have the chance to experience it and to follow it >> and to live it.
That's all I want to say.
>> Thank you. It was great speaking to you.
I >> It was very It was very good to be here.
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
>> Yeah.
>> Glory to God.
>> Yeah. I just I just just just before we close actually there was one final thought on the saints that came to mind.
So we this is a a postcriptum if you will on on on that earlier point. But as we were talking about the saints, I was thinking about Charlie Kirk because, you know, the Protestant church, the evangelical churches of America discovered saintly veneration um by accident when when Charlie Kirk was martyed. Um but Charlie Kirk embodied that kind of life of I have been given something wonderful and out of thanks I want to devote my life to giving something back. And it cost him his life to do so, but it was a a price that he was willing to pay. And um um may the prayers of Charlie Kirk and all the saints advance the salvation of the world. Amen. Amen.
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