Lesbians can SLEEP with MEN?!? | The Queer Collective Podcast is Lesbiphobic

[00:00:00]lesbians, everything's their fault.

[00:00:02]They're mean. All drive Subarus badly, mind you, because whammen. All the issues of the LGBT community like bif phobia created by lesbians, but also lesbians. Come here. If you're a lesbian and you want to have sex with one, maybe two sis men a year, I won't tell anyone.

[00:00:18]You're still a lesbian. If you liked that, then you'd also like the topic of today's video, the Queer Collective Podcast, who have found themselves in some hot water recently for so many different things, perpetuating lesbophobia, transphobia, bi-acer, saying the word stud is a slur, blocking people who criticize them, and just having a bad vibe.

[00:00:35]>> Thank you.

[00:00:37]>> The Queer Collective podcast is run by two queers named Carbon and Emily, or Mullet One and Mullet 2. For context, Carbon is a six lesbian. Emily is a non-binary bisexual. This podcast has a multitude of problematic takes, but the one that grabbed my attention first was a podcast episode called Bisexuality isn't 50/50. It's a by cycle. The alternate title on YouTube, which has now been deleted, was something along the lines of, "Why are so many lesbians becoming bisexual?" And in this podcast, they had two bisexual guests on to talk about their experiences being bisexual.

[00:01:05]Now, they have since deleted this podcast, but I saw it with my own two eyes, and they left a lot of clips up.

[00:01:11]Yippee. They opened the podcast talking about the bicycle, something that I was unaware of until this podcast. So, thank you for the education. According to them, the bicycle is slang used amongst bisexuals. And it essentially means that people who are bisexual are not just attracted to women, men, and everything in between all the time, but that it fluctuates, which in theory makes sense to me until they said they could be attracted to women exclusively for like 3 years, and then one day randomly it could switch. And then they're attracted to men and then it switches again and flip-flops. I'm mostly attracted to women, but then sometimes I might be attracted to men and like it might feel good for me. Then sometimes I'm completely repulsed by men. Sometimes it does depend on where my cycle is. That's actually a common experience depending on where you are in your menstrual cycle. When I was in my first relationship in high school, which was with a man, I was like seeing other people on my rugby team start to date other women and I was like, "Oh, I really want that." And it got to a point where I was having this conversation with my boyfriend at the time who I really loved and I was like, "I don't want to break up with this person, but like I have to go do this." For 7 years, I thought I was a lesbian. It came back though and I'm like okay now I actually am interested but I find that it fluctuates a lot for me now. According to the dating app field these phases can last days, weeks, months or even years where you swing one way or the other and these shifts can happen for all kinds of reasons like desires, wants, needs, life events, trauma. I mean the trauma piece that's another element that I forgot to like I think this unhealed sexual trauma that I had with men as well that was like that was a big contributing factor >> which made you feel like no I'm just a lesbian sex only feels good with women like it can't feel good with men when it was like a lot of trauma that needed to be unpacked >> you know I've always wondered where the stereotype that lesbians have trauma with men and that's why they're lesbians came from and now I know because for some people it is true if you're a lesbian you know you've had to explain yourself before about why you're a lesbian I've literally had experience where I was explaining to a man why I was a lesbian cuz he asked. Men ask. I don't know if people know that. If you're a lesbian and a man likes you and you tell them that you're a lesbian, a lot of the time they will ask you why. I was in the middle of explaining that I just like women. That's the reason why.

[00:03:16]And he cut me off to say, "Yeah, too many bad experiences with men." And I said, "No, because I didn't even say that. I didn't even mention men." And as I was trying to elaborate, he kept just going like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it." And I don't think he got it. I just find it really interesting that they can acknowledge that the bicycle is a thing. but in another episode blame lesbians for their fear that their bisexual partner might cheat on them or leave them for a man. And they said that that fear that lesbians have is male centered.

[00:03:39]>> I wanted to kind of kick things off with the most talked about tension in lesbian to relationships. Many lesbians have heard or maybe even felt the fear of what if she leaves me for a man.

[00:03:49]>> That's something that I'm like I'm this way and like that's it like I have no choice. But like the other person if they're bisexual it's like well you have kind of a choice.

[00:03:55]>> Yeah. An option for an easier quotequote more society acceptable life.

[00:03:59]>> Yeah. So for me, it's not really like a man is better, but rather like society just like rewards itself. Yeah, the lifestyle.

[00:04:05]>> Oh, that's interesting. That makes sense. Actually, >> both of the things that you shared kind of tied into the research. When lesbians fear being left for a man, do we think they're centering men or are they accurately recognizing the position that society like holds men in? You know, >> both. I think both a little bit.

[00:04:21]>> You think both?

[00:04:21]>> Well, to your point, that was kind of outlining what you were saying earlier of like the lifestyle that you can have you can have in a more heterosexual relationship. Mhm.

[00:04:28]>> But I also think that you are kind of centering men in a way that every woman who's bisexual is secretly straight and every man who's bisexual is secretly gay. That part where it's like the women are always just the experiment, the play thing, the thing you're hiding behind.

[00:04:38]But the real attraction is to men.

[00:04:40]>> I don't know that I would say that I do though >> because first of all, I don't think that bisexual men are gay. And I don't think that >> bisexual women are straight. If anything, I'm like, please they'll be straight. Please praying and digging and hoping.

[00:04:53]>> Please be straight. That'll be so good.

[00:04:54]Like you can have both. Like keep it, you know? Like that's again I don't think they're better. Like >> they're smellier generally. They're hairier generally.

[00:05:02]>> Maybe that's the attraction piece.

[00:05:04]>> Yeah. The question was about like centering men though. Do you think like this fear of yours?

[00:05:07]>> No. I think it's more so like um just >> hating I guess the patriarchy.

[00:05:11]>> I have some other thought. I I personally think it centers men a little bit. You know what I mean? I agree with what you're saying about it being internalized misogyny. Do I think it's your fault though? Like I think we're all kind of victims of patriarchy, you know? Like I I hold compassion for people who are feeling these insecurities obviously. You know, I feel like you can't be a bisexual in a relationship with a lesbian and like not either. You know what I mean? Like there's going to be insecurities on both sides and I think both parties need to be able to hold space for each other.

[00:05:34]However, I do think it is a little bit of centering men. So, sexuality researcher Policy Rust found that tensions often arose because bisexuality was perceived as challenging lesbian political and identity boundaries.

[00:05:45]>> And I think so.

[00:05:46]>> Well, this I feel connects to kind of all of the online discourse that goes on. Like if you read any of these comment sections, I don't anymore. But intense.

[00:05:53]>> Honestly, if bisexuality works the way that they're saying it works, which bisexuals sound off below because I have no clue. But if it is as described, I can see why some lesbians might be scared. If it's a cycle and you're telling me that you could be attracted to a woman for 3 years, what happens when that cycle shifts and you're attracted to men again? Do we open our relationship or because even if somebody wants to stay with their partner, I don't think any person would want their partner to be unhappy or unsatisfied.

[00:06:16]Like if the person you've been with for 2 3 years expresses to you that they now have an attraction to men that wasn't there before or wasn't that strong before and now it's like an undeniable urge and they kind of like women a little bit less. Where does that leave you? I guess it's just couple to couple how they handle that. Again, I find it interesting but also have trouble believing that that cycle that they're describing is something that the majority of lesbians deal with because I have been around bisexuals. And when I hear a lot of bisexuals talk about their bisexuality and their attraction, they just talk about it like they're just attracted to people and that they don't necessarily care about gender or genitalia or anything like that. It's just about connection. It's about the person and like are you feeling this person specifically, not necessarily flip-flopping through genders. They're just attracted to who they're attracted to and if they like you, they like you.

[00:06:56]So again, bisexuals, I'd be very interested to know, is this true for you? Do you experience the by cycle? And is it really true that you could just be in a relationship for years and then suddenly one day you're like, "hm, I don't think I want this anymore." I'm assuming there's a lot of nuance in this conversation, in this topic, nuance that they didn't really explore. So, I'd be very interested to see what people think or what the bisexual experience is.

[00:07:16]Calling a lesbian male-centered because they're scared that their partner is going to leave them for a man is very invalidating. I think on both ends, it's shitty. If you are a lesbian dating a bisexual, or honestly, anybody dating anybody, don't date people that you do not trust. If you don't trust your partner not to cheat on you, you should not be dating them. That fear might be more of a reflection on your relationship more than anything else in their bisexuality. And if you don't trust anyone, get some help. I don't think that lesbians are centering men by acknowledging the privilege that bisexuals have. That if they are too scared to be in a lesbian presenting relationship or it's too much for them, they could in fact hypothetically be with a man instead. I'm not saying they would, but hypothetically they could. In another episode called Why Bisexuality Triggers Lesbian Insecurity. Crazy title by the way and still up on their channel. They have a couple on that is candid about their experience in a bisexual lesbian relationship. And even they acknowledged that the partner who was bisexual thought about leaving the relationship after years of dating when she realized that having kids might be harder for them >> things. But how did you work through kind of that inner crisis around it?

[00:08:14]Like was it as big of a deal to you as it immediately felt in that moment?

[00:08:17]>> Honestly, yeah. I was questioning everything. Everything. the relationship bigger really >> cuz I'm like oh my god okay this is what I want I know this is what I want but there's so many additional struggles that I didn't think of >> and that are very upsetting for me like I remember this one time we were on vacation and there was this couple straight couple had a baby and that was the first time that I was like >> oh [ __ ] I'm not going to be able to just organically have a baby >> yeah it's not going to be our baby child that's a big on a random Tuesday so sick >> and it just made me so upset cuz I was Oh, like I would die to have a baby with you. And now it's like >> all this medical stuff on top of that.

[00:08:56]It gets rid of the sexy nature of like, oh, we're trying.

[00:09:00]>> Yeah. It's a whole different thing. You had to mourn this future for yourself that you thought was going to happen a certain way.

[00:09:05]>> But I think for us, just being very open and honest and having those really tough conversations made all the difference.

[00:09:12]>> There's a narrative in the Savic space that lesbians are bifhobic for not wanting to date bisexual women. I think what people need to understand is that where that comes from is fear. If bisexuality works the way that they're saying on the Queer Collective podcast, that means you could be with somebody for years and one day they say that they're craving men again. Or you could be years into a relationship with a woman and she says she can't be with you anymore because she can't get pregnant.

[00:09:30]This again is assuming that the bicycle is a universal experience for bisexuals, which is kind of how it's presented in this podcast. I think the bif phobia in the lesbian community is literal by phobia, fearing bisexuals. And I'm not going to sit here and blame lesbians for guarding and shooting themselves because of the pain they have experienced in the past. On the opposite side of the same coin, I think bisexual people are allowed to be upset and feel like they are being unfairly or unjustly criticized for something that a different bisexual did. This is not a black and white conversation. There is no right answer because when you're talking about actual people's love, that is not a topic of debate and you have to be very careful how you talk about it.

[00:10:02]But bif phobia is very real and is very wrong. But I think placing the blame on the back of lesbians is wrong also.

[00:10:08]>> Every label can be a phase. That's I mean lesbian was a phase for me but a lot of people would not like if I said lesbian's a phase you know but it's like literally everyone's >> I'm going to keep that in >> right right >> I've broken a lot of men's hearts because I feel more homo romantic anytime I'm only in connection with men I crave romance with women >> I'll say currently I'm in like a sexual relationship with a man I said to him I was like I don't think that anything will come out of this and now it's kind of like to a point where I'm like >> listen >> I will not have dinner with you and I always tell them at the beginning I'm like I love this it's like just like a sexual relationship and at First they're like, "Oh, this is great." And then it's like, "Oh, well, can I come to your drag show?"

[00:10:43]>> And it's like, "No." Or like, "Can I meet your friend?"

[00:10:46]>> No. Well, you met mine. I don't care.

[00:10:48]They were there.

[00:10:48]>> Yeah.

[00:10:49]>> That wasn't my choice.

[00:10:50]>> Women will break my heart, though. Like, >> I've never broken a woman's heart.

[00:10:53]>> Bisexual women are going to come at me.

[00:10:54]>> But it is usually the bisexual women who have broken my heart. They're like, "Don't feel comfortable dating." And like then a week later, they're out with a man and I'm like, "You're not scared of me. You're scared of everything that comes with me."

[00:11:04]>> I think that's the tea though is like that's where the stereotype comes from.

[00:11:07]>> Oh, you know what? That's a personal thing that I said personally on my own time in my own world.

[00:11:12]>> Nobody come for that.

[00:11:13]>> At this point, the commentary writes itself. We have a bisexual here defending bisexuals, saying they are usually experiencing these issues with bisexuals. I think these inconsistencies are part of why people are telling the Queer Collective podcast to just end it, burn it down, delete the channel because it is doing more harm than good to the community. I understand everybody loves discourse. I'm a yapper. I would know.

[00:11:30]But not everything should be discourse or a debate topic because then you get into issues where across episodes you were being less phobic and bifhobic when you really could have just kept your mouth shut. Another one of their guests also talks about how they used the lesbian label as kink for sex work when I was identifying as a lesbian. At that point I was doing sex work. I had me and my girlfriend and we had clients that were men. And then when I stopped doing it I started talking to a man and I was like this is weird. And all of my friends who were lesbians were like, "Oh my god, look at you being bisexual over there." Like, and then someone would say, "Oh, look at you being straight."

[00:12:02]>> Straight feels like a dagger to the heart.

[00:12:04]>> Straight is too far.

[00:12:07]>> I was like, "Let's go get my homosexuality on." And then I just pushed back so far from it. It felt like it wasn't for me. And I was scared to tell people I was bisexual. But now I'm just like, it's it's the flow of, you know, the by cycle. Who am I attracted to today? And like what's going on? Like where am I at? Well, especially now learning about the bicycle, I'm like, this is just part of it and like I'm going to come out of these phases, but I'm always bisexual. It's just shifting right now, you know? And like that's what labelled as confused or it could be labeled as like a subtle state of fluidity.

[00:12:36]>> I mean, get your bag, but I don't know if this is how they meant it to come off, but it feels like they are bisexual and they were just using the term lesbian to promote their sex work and perpetuating the over sexualization of lesbians. They themselves were over sexualizing the label of lesbian. But hey, that's just me. Do you think people who are attracted to all genders can choose to be a lesbian, can choose to be gay or straight?

[00:12:57]>> You have to decide whether choosing means like your mental space or what you're choosing to do with your actions and your behavior. You can hide being by for the rest of your life if you want to by choosing behavior. But what if they choose a label and then save maybe the actions don't fully match the label?

[00:13:12]Like you're a lesbian but you [ __ ] one guy a year.

[00:13:14]>> That just seems like a like a reproductive kind of thing. I get to ovulate once a year and get to like >> I get to cash in that one little >> I actually know a lot of stories of this happening. Like one of our friends has been like what's called like a bull which is the opposite of like a unicorn.

[00:13:33]As like a male you go and like sleep with like two women. They've gone and done that with lesbian couples who are like this is the only time we're doing this. And then they never hit them up ever again. And apparently they went like dick crazy.

[00:13:47]>> Like they popped off this or not.

[00:13:51]>> Let's say a straight couple did a similar thing where they like go and have an orgy or something that like qualifies as queer, but they only do it once a year. Do we consider those people still straight?

[00:14:02]>> I think it's your choice.

[00:14:03]>> Yes, but that's that was the question.

[00:14:05]>> Like if I met those lesbians, I'd be like cool, be like I don't care.

[00:14:09]>> But a lot of people are going to get mad at you probably. There is some lesbian purists.

[00:14:14]>> If you want to identify as a lesbian, but you [ __ ] a guy a year, [ __ ] it. Make it two and you want to go crazy.

[00:14:23]>> And then by all means, you could still call yourself a lesbian. It's fine. I don't care.

[00:14:27]>> I need a cigarette. In theory, yes.

[00:14:29]Anybody can identify as anything. This is just like that MAL article, you know, the one I made a video about like months ago where she says she chooses to be a lesbian because of political reasons and she doesn't even know if she can hold out the rest of her life, but for right now, she's a lesbian and she's going to try her hardest to hold out on having men in her life, but she wants to have women for right now, but one day she might be married to a man. When topics like this come about, I just think it's really important for people to understand it's okay to be by. Bisexuals actually make up the largest part of the LGBTQ plus community. So, you are not alone. I like bisexuals. My best friend is bisexual. By people are great. It's okay to be you. And if you is by, so be it. Identifying as a lesbian when you are in fact bisexual, I think plays into by eraser. If you desire men and women and everything in between, there is no need to invalidate your own identity just to fit in. I know it might be annoying that some lesbians are less for less, but that's part of why it's so amazing that there are so many bisexual people. If you are identifying as a lesbian and [ __ ] two guys a year and go dick crazy, yeah, you can do whatever you want, but that's just not what lesbian means. I understand that there has always been a push that the lesbian identity is political and you can have attraction to men, but as long as you choose to date women, then you are a lesbian, but again, that's not what it is. Lesbianism includes the absence of attraction to men. If you are attracted to sis men, you are not a lesbian. And the lesbian identity is not political.

[00:15:42]Yes, it's hard to be queer and gay and not be political, but the fact that I love women for me is not a political choice. It's just how I am. Side note, in my video with Mel's article, I mentioned the term feeb fem because I found it online as just a term for bisexuals who exclusively want to date women, but I learned that that is actually a turf term. Do not use it.

[00:16:01]Now, the phrase and term going dick crazy plays into so many stereotypes about lesbians. Plays into the stereotype that lesbians just always want dick normally, but also there are lesbians that have dicks and that is also valid.

[00:16:16]I want to make it very clear. Although according to the Quick Collective podcast, I'm probably considered a lesbian purist. This is not a safe space for turfs. No, no, no, no, no. Trans women can be lesbians because they're women. Them saying in this podcast that when a lesbian [ __ ] man, it's okay because they can ovulate once a year is disgusting to me because number one, that's not even how ovulation works. But also, lesbians are not like that. And posting a video like that is just pushing harmful stereotypes onto the lesbian community. And then when people are calling you out, blocking them or arguing with them in your comments shows that you are not about community. you don't care about the possible harm you are doing because lesbians were calling them out for a long time before this recent apology they made. Lesbians were telling them, "Hey, you are spreading harmful rhetoric. You are promoting lesbophobia and also bifhobia at the same time." But they did not care. They were just blocking and arguing with people. You don't care about community.

[00:17:00]You just care about yapping. We've just got done complaining about how it's hard to accept yourself as bisexual and it's hard to register the bicycle as a phenomenon because of by erasia and compulsory heterosexuality. And then Emily said that they didn't feel like they would be welcome in the queer community if they lent into being by and had to fully lock in as a lesbian using this hand gesture in order to be accepted in the queer community. We just had that conversation. We then immediately pivot into whether or not sexuality can be a choice. And we decide that absolutely it's fine. It's also fine if a lesbian wants to [ __ ] a man because [ __ ] a man once a year hypothetically, which we have friends who we know do and still call themselves lesbians. That's just a purely reproductive thing. Also, it's fine to still identify as a lesbian because your identity is your choice. But there are some lesbian purists out there who are going to get like really crazy about it as in they're going to get really mad at you for sleeping with a man. But it's fine if you want to call yourself a lesbian despite having bisexual inclinations or participating in bisexual activity. Lesbianism is the absence of attraction to men. It is not one man a year. It is not I'm attracted to both but I have to lock in. It is not dating men made me feel like I was at work. It is not unhealed sexual trauma.

[00:17:59]It is absence. The absence of desire at all. The absence of sexual romantic desire at all. is not being a lesbian purist. That is what it is. That is why we use that label. That is what it means. You do not get to stand there, sit there, mic to your mouth, and complain about by eraser when the next words out of your mouth are participating in by erasia. When the very next things you say are denying the bicycle, well, they only do one man a year, so they have to be a lesbian. What if that was the bicycle, right? When the very next words you say are erasing the bisexual label as an option. When you say sexuality is a choice. If it's a choice to be bisexual, why did you choose lesbianism and then complained that you weren't lesbian enough and then complained that that wasn't the right label for you? You chose lesbian and then complained that it hurt you.

[00:18:42]Complained that it harmed you, it confused you, it disoriented you, it made you feel detached from community, it made you feel like you didn't belong.

[00:18:47]You chose it. Or is it possible that sexuality is not a choice? But you're only capable of understanding that so long as it relates to you. But when you get to invalidate other bisexual people by saying they're gay, we're not here to help anyone else unpack the bicycle.

[00:19:01]We're only here to talk about us and to complain about how it hurt us to not know about it and to complain about how we were erased by the big bad lesbians who didn't welcome us into community.

[00:19:08]But we're not going to provide a template, a forum, a playground for any other bisexual to come on this journey with us. We're pulling the rope up behind us and going, "Y'all are lesbians.

[00:19:17]Y'all are lesbians because you chose to be. You weren't a lesbian when you chose to be. You are instrumental in the bioasia you are complaining about."

[00:19:23]>> She articulated this way better than I could have. So, thank you. A major issue I've noticed in LGBT spaces is that although bisexuals are the largest part of the LGBTQ plus community, I don't find many bisexual exclusive events. I see lesbian events, safic events, gay male events, trans events, but not really any pansexual or bisexual events.

[00:19:41]I think a lot of the issues I hear them bring up in this podcast with bisexuals feeling exiled when they're dating a man is because they're not finding community with like-minded people or other bisexuals. They are in community with either lesbians or straight people, not bisexual people. You're allowed to have community with whoever you want to, but I think it's also important to find spaces where you feel celebrated. I love going to LGBT events, but I also really, really, really like going to specifically lesbian events. It's just a different vibe. I think that I would have a hard time if I were to date a man to bring them into the career community.

[00:20:08]>> That because there was this time I was dating this guy. He kept asking, "Can I come to one of your drag shows? Can I come to one of your drag shows?" I'm like, "No." And I almost felt like I was like DL. I was like, "Oh my god."

[00:20:17]>> As someone who's like I totally feel that as someone who's like homic.

[00:20:21]I've had a hard time with that as well where it's like I'm struggling to think about like bringing you home to my family because I'm like I spent so much time coming out as a lesbian to my grandma and now it's like she's going to like the way that her brain would work is like you can choose. I think that's like the internalized by phobia as well.

[00:20:34]Not feeling like you're comfortable to bring your partner into the space.

[00:20:36]>> Yeah. But also people making it like uncomfortable >> by literally saying things like, "Oh, you're straight now."

[00:20:40]>> Yeah. I think there's a sense of disappointment sometimes when I share I'm in a partnership with a man. Like I think people are like why? They're like, "Oh, cuz I love him dearly. What do you mean?" And you feel like you have to like defend yourself now of like no but he's this this and this and nor like he's a good one >> which is like not something that is that's not like a welcomed conversation either having these blanket rules about like no men at this no men at that which is a really common thing in safic spaces which is where I tend to spend most of my time. I think I was with six safic couples and they were and we were all like screaming and doing like karaoke and singing together and I just found myself feeling very like isolated because I knew that I couldn't bring him in and have him engage in a way that all of these couples could exist. And I feel like what needs to be added is like there's massive privilege in showing up in a in a relationship that is straight passing. Like I I never worry about holding his hand on the street or things like that. And that's where often this conversation is shut down. I think it's challenging as someone who's like homo romantic being on the receiving end of it. You feel a little bit otherred sometimes when everyone else has their partner there. You're right. It's like this is part of like the privilege and part of creating these like safe spaces is like there is something really special about like a safic space. And I think that's the trade-off sadly of being in these relationships when you're not in a sappic dynamic is like you miss out on like everything's like girl time kik key vibes.

[00:21:44]>> I feel like I was more open and honest about it online. I feel like I don't really talk about it too much, especially being in a relationship.

[00:21:48]>> But I feel like if I were then Yeah, maybe.

[00:21:51]>> Opening yourself up to more.

[00:21:53]>> Absolutely. And that was always my biggest fear. If we broke up, I'm like, if we break up and I start dating a man, I'm going to be exiled. No one's going to talk to me. I'm going to lose all of my friends. Everyone's going to look at me differently.

[00:22:01]>> Cuz then you're the bad bisexual. Yeah.

[00:22:04]It is kind of a dichotomy that exists.

[00:22:05]is like the good bisexuals are the ones according to the queer community are the ones that are dating the same sex partners and then like a bad bisexual are the people who are getting like like man boo you know it's like that does happen but >> it's crazy I I had no idea and you think you're building this community and if it's something as small as changing your partner up can make you lose that entire community are they really your friends or is this really for you and not really feeling that there's a space that's 100% open and accepting of you in all of your facets >> oh god my life in a nutshell being a biracial bisexual woman >> now I do have my own opinions on But they align very closely with somebody who articulated it a lot better than I would. And it would be unfair of me to just regurgitate exactly what they say in their TikTok. So, I'm going to just show it to you because I really don't think I could articulate it better than they did.

[00:22:45]>> I'm going to be exiled. I don't know how bad this podcast got. Um, well, I'll say this. It's not the take.

[00:22:51]>> Let's follow that statement through a little bit further. You're going to be exiled from what? you're going to be exiled from an already marginalized community that really tries to insulate themselves with people that they feel aligned with. This is a very victimized take and I think it's because you're trying to have your cake and eat it as well. The privilege that bisexuality offers in that if you start dating a man, you are accepted back into the world as you are. And especially given that you're fem and there is nothing about you that is inherently queercoded to, you know, the hetero eye, you have the power of choice in that. And instead of holding gratitude for it, you're putting this disadvantage on a pedestal.

[00:23:30]And you can complain till the cows come home because that's your right. I'm just saying don't expect sympathy from the portion of our community that lives this experience day in and day out. It is not an identity that we can switch out of to the hetero. I even argue that bisexuals should feel like some of the most empowered individuals in our community.

[00:23:48]You can be spies on the other side for good. But no, instead you're on a queer podcast complaining about how the community will exile you if you decide to date a man. Like I said previously, bisexual people are allowed to complain about how it feels unfair to be judged and experienced by phobia, which is very real. But again, it's very important to recognize their privilege. Like I said, I just really wish there were more spaces for bisexuals to be in community with each other. But the issue is that they're not making them. I do not see many bisexual exclusive events. I feel like bisexuals need a space where they can feel accepted fully. And I really hope that they band together and make that for themselves. In a perfect world, everyone should feel accepted everywhere, but we don't. And that's why these subsects of the queer community make spaces for themselves. It's not to segregate us into factions. It's just creating space for yourself, and that's allowed. Personally, as Savic events, bisexuals are duh, allowed to be there because they're safics. So, maybe it's just to me personally, I don't care because I personally still see people's bisexuality as valid, even if they are dating the opposite sex. But because I know not everybody is like me, not all lesbians think like me and are as cool as me and everything, that's why I think it'd be really cool for there to be bisexual specific events in spaces. You may be feeling like this by versus lesbian divide is especially heated lately. But I'm here to tell you that this is nothing new.

[00:24:56]>> It's always been there.

[00:24:57]>> Mhm.

[00:24:58]>> Since at least the 1970s, I will say, is when this like kind of sappic divide started to happen. According to academic research in the Journal of Bisexuality, the political lesbian wars of the 1970s created the biophobic template that's still circulating in safic spaces to this day. Oh no, the lesbians did it.

[00:25:17]Ooh, sorry y'all. In the 70s, a significant faction of the lesbian feminist movement formally constructed the argument that bisexual women were collaborators with the patriarchy.

[00:25:29]>> Oh. Oh. Because they date men, >> they have sex with men.

[00:25:32]>> That's just [ __ ] luck, isn't it? These arguments were not casual. They were published. They were organized. They produced explicit calls to exclude bisexual women from feminist spaces. We definitely see this happening to this day where it's like don't bring your boyfriend talking [ __ ] about bisexuals in the safic spaces so that bisexuals feel uncomfortable.

[00:25:52]>> To be fair, if it's a safic only place, maybe don't bring your boyfriend.

[00:25:56]>> Like say all the lesbians have their partners there and the bisexual friend can't bring her boyfriend. I feel like that's a little hypocritical. Well, I can promise you with absolute certainty that lesbians did not create bifphobia.

[00:26:07]Lesbians pointing out that bisexuals are more closely lined to the patriarchy is much different than biphobia. Now, I will say though, radical feminists are notorious for being bifhobic and transphobic. So, I don't doubt for a second that they excluded bisexuals from feminism, but that's not because they're lesbian. That's because they're weird.

[00:26:21]Using quotes from radical turf feminists to defend your point that lesbians are just so mean and horrible is not the flex you think it is, twin. Why is my eye watering? It looks like I'm crying.

[00:26:30]You know what? I am crying. I'm crying now to the point that it is unfair for a bisexual person to not be allowed to bring their boyfriend to a savic event.

[00:26:38]Are we being serious? I feel like I shouldn't even dignify that with a response. Rage baiting lesbians is so insane.

[00:26:45]Why are you punching down? It's crazy.

[00:26:48]It's so crazy. Like, and I can't believe they well, I can believe that they have a huge platform because rage baiting lesbians, punching down on lesbians, and saying shitty things about lesbian gets you clicks and views. But still, it's like, why are you calling yourself the Queer Collective podcast? It should be called the Bisexuals with vendettas against lesbians because they haven't unpacked their intersectional privilege.

[00:27:17]>> And she's right. It does feel like they're rage baiting us. And part of why it works is because lesbians tend to be very passionate about their community.

[00:27:23]We tend to be very protective of the community because nobody else will. And I think it's because as a whole, people do not care about lesbians or women in general. It's misogyny and lesbophobia.

[00:27:32]But trust me, we are not the only community that the Queer Collective podcast decided to talk about without any qualifications. Trans folks, you think you're safe? Nope. They're weird about you, too. My eye keeps watering.

[00:27:43]What the hell? I'm going to play one of the clips that people are very upset about and then play a clip of a creator talking about that clip because I personally don't feel equipped to talk about it. And unlike the Queer Collective podcast, I know when things are not mine to speak about this whole narrative online that it's like there's no one way to look non-binary and I agree with that. However, it seems like there is a way to look non-binary because Carbon is getting they themed and neither of us are.

[00:28:06]>> Yes. So, what the [ __ ] is up?

[00:28:08]>> Give me whatever is in your wardrobe that is making the magic happen. the bandanna on the neck >> is the misconception that it's like it is androgyny.

[00:28:16]>> I think it's that for example if you see somebody that has a masculine figure they have a lot of body hair maybe they have a little beard but they have long hair and they're wearing a dress. I think majority of people would be like >> they them.

[00:28:31]>> They them.

[00:28:31]>> They walk into the room and then suddenly we're all doing a pronoun check.

[00:28:35]>> Loki some of people need to get out of trans women's business is what I will say. You can tell trans women are women because this is how people talk about us. First things first, obviously I believe non-binary people, even if they feel comfortable implicitly, institutionally, societally being perceived silently as their assigned gender at birth, um should still be gendered correctly when it comes to it, right? And I hope these folks find communities and eventually hopefully find a whole world and a whole culture that sort of validates them and recognizes them for how they present in relationship to their own gender uh more authentically. But notice how they're like, "Here's a transmisogenistic stereotype. Why don't I get treated like that? There's sort of this like envy and antagonism towards this character of a trans woman. You're implicitly saying this trans woman is treated better than me. What it comes down to is that for a lot of sispassing non-binary people, their experience of being transgender sort of begins and ends with like very explicit delineated gestures. Do I get gendered correctly? Do I get shown the gender neutral bathroom? etc. It's a very adolescent idea because it is basically entirely to do with your own internal desire and at most like some very uh sort of superficial interpersonal interactions. But here's where you see sort of like a stunning lack of empathy for how people who have medically transitioned, people who are sort of irreversibly trans, either in like a legislative way or as they are perceived in the world. The difficulties that I face in regards to being trans do include being misgendered or being treated in ways that make me feel dysphoric. It also includes getting beaten up for being trans, getting denied housing for being trans, getting denied work for being trans, losing formative relationships for coming out, being ostracized for transmogistic bias within the queer community itself. And that's coming from someone who is thin, white, and most of the time passes for a sis woman. Gender is a material thing.

[00:30:17]If you want to be perceived as gender non-conforming, don't conform to your gender. There are a million ways to do it. And it's okay to not want that, and it's okay to want that, but not quite be ready for it. And this is how you know that these people aren't adequately listening to the trans women in their life. It's because any trans woman could tell you that they're that a trans feminine person getting they them is not because they are not seen as a man, but because they're not seen as a woman. And you know, I'm sick of the conversation being like, "Oh, well, we have to make sure we listen to everyone because you are listening to them. Everybody's listening to them. Apparently, they have a podcast and it would do these people a massive good to desenter themselves a little bit."

[00:30:48]>> I think she is absolutely right. And the last point she made is exactly why I think this podcast falls flat. They are centering themselves in every conversation. They are using anecdotal evidence in every conversation. Their podcast is not framed as a personality podcast. People aren't watching because they want to know what's up with Carbone and Emily. They are framed educationally. So, people aren't necessarily going there to hear about their specific opinions. If people want some bozo's opinion about things, they come to me. They also had a podcast episode called The History of Transness.

[00:31:15]And in this podcast, they say that trans women were socialized as men. They have now since deleted this podcast because again they had no place to be talking about this stuff. I couldn't find the clip, but I will tell you that this exact phrasing is used against trans women all the time, especially by turfs.

[00:31:29]If you really think that a trans woman experienced the same childhood as a sis man, you're kidding yourself. It's not my space to speak on it, but I think anybody can come to the conclusion that a little trans is probably not digesting their environment the same way as a cis child. But that is also a generalization, so I'll shut my ass up.

[00:31:46]But for real, when you display yourself as an educational source, you have to be careful about how you speak about certain topics because everything you say can be taken as you trying to say a fact. You also have to be careful when talking about delicate topics. You cannot talk about trans people like their lives are just discourse or something to just speculate about. You have to be more careful, especially the bigger your platform gets. And I understand it's hard. That is something that I'm still learning. But what you should not do is just block everybody who disagrees with you. You cannot be a better content creator without listening to the people who watch your content.

[00:32:13]This is why although people have been criticizing them for year, they finally apologized. Yippee bare minimum. The apology is long, but I'm going to play the whole thing at two times speed. So, if you want it at regular speed and want to slow it down, click the little settings gear icon and go to.5 speed. Or if you don't want to hear what I have to say and you're just here to hear me yap over the song, use the timestamps below and skip ahead. Hey everyone, we have been taking the time to really read and process everybody's feedback that we've been getting over the past few weeks.

[00:32:36]And we wanted to come on here to properly apologize to the lesbian and trans members of our community and honestly to everyone who expected more care from us. Um, we received a lot of feedback. A lot of it is really important. And we wrote out our thoughts because we didn't want to miss anything.

[00:32:46]But over the past few weeks, people have raised some really serious concerns about things that we said in our content about lesbian and bisexual identity, the bicycle, trans women, and socialization.

[00:32:52]We have removed the bicycles and the trans history full episodes and the social clips about the cause of bifhobia and safic spaces from our library. We've also edited and removed certain parts of the full bophobia episode. We chose to remove them because they contained harmful framing and after reflection does not align with our personal values.

[00:33:03]And leaving them on our channels would just allow that arm to continue.

[00:33:05]>> And we want to begin by saying this plainly, which is that you have every right to behave with us. the disappointment is justified and we said things that were careless and that were harmful and we published them. So we take full responsibility for that. Now first we want to apologize to the lesbian community and in our discussion about the bicycle and labels I said that someone could [ __ ] a man in a year and still call themselves a lesbian. Now while I'm not here to believe anybody's identities whatsoever this me saying this perpetuated harm against lesbians and I'm definitely going to explain explain more that in a moment. I also shared a story in that episode about an ex who identifies as nonbinary who acted as a bull while they had consensual sex with a couple who were self-described as lesbians. I did this without seriously challenging what that framing communicated. In that episode, I also asked the question, "What if you identify as a lesbian, but maybe your actions don't reflect that claim?" And in response to that question, one of our guests spoke about how when they're ovulating, they feel a stronger desire to sleep with men. And while the guest was specifically speaking about their personal bisexual experience, connecting those two ideas was very irresponsible and a bad editorial decision that reinforced harmful claims about lesbian identity. And these were our questions, they're our framing, they're our decisions to edit and publish the episode. And our guests are in no way responsible for those decisions. So, we take full responsibility for those irresponsible editorial choices.

[00:34:05]>> Absolutely. Now, lesbians are repeatedly told that their lack of attraction to men is actually negotiable, that they secretly want men, or that they just need the right man to change them. And by speaking about lesbian identity in the way that we did, we contributed to that harmful idea. And we understand why people connected our framing to the fetishization of lesbians to essay culture to corrective sexual violence.

[00:34:23]And presenting consensual experiences within that framing didn't really matter because it still echoed the predatory belief that lesbian boundaries are flexible. And consent within the stories doesn't make our framing harmless at all. That failure is completely on us and we have been sitting with that. and how we can make that right going forward, which we will be discussing at the end of this video. Now, me being a lesbian and us trying to make room for people with complicated relationships to identity labels does not at all give us the right to make broad provocative claims about lesbian identity or to ignore the context in which those claims would be heard, bisexuality does not need to be at all supported by weakening the legitimacy of lesbian boundaries.

[00:34:52]And we harmed lesbian and bisexual listeners by deepening the division between the communities through these videos.

[00:34:57]>> Yeah. And in our social clips about the cause of bifhobia and safic spaces, Garbin said, "Oh, no, lesbians did it."

[00:35:01]And I agreed casually instead of challenging and clarifying the claim, which I wish I did. And by reducing a complex history to lesbians did it. We assigned collective responsibility to bif phobia in safic spaces to lesbians.

[00:35:09]That was inaccurate, reductive, and harmful. And in the same clip, we also discussed don't bring your boyfriend as a potentially bifphobic sentiment without clearly distinguishing between the general queer spaces from lesbian and safic specific spaces. Lesbian and safic communities have every right to create spaces specifically for themselves and to establish boundaries around those spaces. For all of those reasons, we are choosing to remove the clip and have removed these generalizations from the full bophobia episode.

[00:35:26]>> Yeah. And we also owe an apology to trans women. Now, two years ago, in an episode about trans history, we described trans women as having been socialized as men. And that wording was both wrong and harmful. And it flattened the complex and individual ways that trans women experience gender punishment, resistance, and survival.

[00:35:39]And it treated a role imposed on some trans women as though it defined their experience of socialization. And quite frankly, it is also language commonly used to position trans women as fundamentally male to undermine their womanhood. And we really should have known that. Now, trans women are women.

[00:35:50]They should not have had to hear language used to delegitimize them coming from a queer platform that they trusted. And for that, we truly are so sorry to all of our listeners who that we harmed in saying that. And for that reason, we've removed that video and we're committed to remaking it in a way that feels good and that we can actually be truly proud of.

[00:36:03]>> Here are the things that we're planning on changing as we move forward. So alongside our guests from the community sharing their personal experiences, we'll be integrating in more academic and expert voices. So hopefully our listeners can feel a deeper sense of trust in the information that they're receiving. Moving forward, we will include all of our sources in our episode show notes and full video descriptions. We will no longer be treating one person's experience as evidence for the entire community. We will clearly distinguish between what is personal experience, interpretation, and established research. Moving forward, all content involving identities that are outside of our knowledge or personal experience will always invalid experience and expertise. Now, to ensure that we were being more sensitive and precise in our wording, we will be adding in additional review processes in both pre and post-production to further ensure that the claims that we're making in our episodes are clear, well thought out, and considerate of all stakeholders in the community.

[00:36:35]>> While this was all initially unfolding, we also mishandled some moderation decisions. While responding to threatening and abusive messages, we ended up blocking some accounts that were offering legitimate criticism and in doing so, we silenced valid feedback.

[00:36:44]>> We have unblocked the accounts we could identify and we apologize the people we wrongly blocked. We have created a written moderation criteria that distinguishes criticism from abuse going forward so that we can maintain safety for our guests, our listeners, and ourselves while also encouraging important dialogue.

[00:36:54]>> And we've been taking in a lot of feedback. But if we have missed a central part of the harm, then in that case, we want to hear from you. So, we set up a listener feedback survey, which is the top link in our bio where you can contact us. Now, you do not owe us forgiveness or reassurance or further education. But if you choose to write to us, we will read what you sent. And your feedback is important to us, especially as we move forward and continue this podcast. And we know that one apology definitely cannot repair trust. And we're definitely not asking you to believe that we have good intentions or to give us grace. And we know that trust can only be rebuilt through what we do, our actions consistently after this video. And in that case, you can judge us by the work that we publish going forward, the standards that we follow, and whether our behavior really reflects what we have promised here. Mhm.

[00:37:25]>> Now, we don't claim to know everything about the quer community. Being curious about every subgroup of the quer community and sharing people's stories is truly our passion and we will continue that mission with a much bigger sense of responsibility and care.

[00:37:34]>> Absolutely. And we want to say thank you to everybody who spoke up, especially those who did so while already feeling hurt and disappointed. And we also wanted to say thank you for listening to this video.

[00:37:39]>> I mean, on an apology scale of 1 to 10, it's like a six. Where is the ukulele? I will say they acknowledged what they did wrong and were very specific and then they offered solutions, which what else can you really do in that case? But the issue that they're not acknowledging is that the podcast is also just bad.

[00:37:52]People feel like a real apology would be them deleting their whole channel, like cancelling the podcast. When I say bad, I don't mean it's like poorly produced or anything. I just mean there have been just so many instances of them saying things that harm the queer community.

[00:38:03]It's much harder to bounce back and gain the trust back of the queer community.

[00:38:07]Especially when it took this long and when people were giving you criticism, you replied with snarky comments. Bigger podcasts that don't cater to a specific audience might be able to piss off a faction of their community and bounce back. But when the LGBTQ plus is not just a faction of your community, but is the whole community and you decided only to apologize once you started losing followers, that feels a little bit iffy.

[00:38:26]It feels like they were not actually sorry because if they were, this apology would have come months ago. The episode entitled Why Bisexuality Triggers Lesbian Insecurity was posted 3 weeks ago and is still up. It seems like they're sorry that people are mad at them. So now they have to apologize. It was a good apology, but because you already said what you said and already platform hateful rhetoric, it feels like too little too late. And the comments seem to agree. If you have to apologize for more than four offenses in one video, maybe being a public figure is not for you. Maybe the podcast is not for you. But watching their podcast clips made me realize something.

[00:38:55]Bisexual people clearly feel a divide in the queer community. They feel the need to erase a part of themselves just to be accepted. And some people identify as a lesbian instead of bisexual because they think it'll help them fit in. I'm here to tell you that being by is okay. This one is for all the bisexuals out there.

[00:39:09]I see you. Yeah.

[00:39:11]>> Being bisexual is okay.

[00:39:14]>> It's all right. Great.

[00:39:16]>> You don't have to be gay.

[00:39:18]>> It's not by force.

[00:39:20]>> LGBT.

[00:39:21]>> Yep.

[00:39:21]>> LGBT yourself.

[00:39:24]>> Just be you and that's enough for me. Be yourself.

[00:39:27]>> It's okay to be you.

[00:39:30]>> Yeah.

[00:39:30]>> You might like girls.

[00:39:32]>> Sometimes >> you might like boys.

[00:39:34]>> Sometimes >> you might like others.

[00:39:36]>> So many genders out there. Nerody.

[00:39:38]>> That's okay.

[00:39:42]>> It's all okay. Just be you like whoever because it's your life.

[00:39:47]>> It's yours.

[00:39:48]>> Your life.

[00:39:50]>> Don't let others dictate what you do.

[00:39:52]>> Like whoever.

[00:39:58]>> It's your life. Do whatever you want.

[00:40:00]>> Bisexual is okay. Actually, it's great.

[00:40:03]>> Fantastic.

[00:40:06]>> I like bisexuals.

[00:40:07]>> LGBT.

[00:40:09]>> They matter. It's okay to be bisexual today.

[00:40:14]>> I support you. In conclusion, the Queer Collective podcast is whack. I think they could have been a good podcast if they would have tried harder and actually listen to their audience the first time, but they didn't. And now people will hate watch them and probably find fault with everything they do from this point forward. Is that necessarily a fair consequence? I'd say yeah. Having bad takes online, it's going to happen.

[00:40:34]It's just a natural part of the commentary life. I'm sure I have bad takes all the time. I'm sure even in this video there are tapes he did not agree with, but it's how you react to criticism that matters the most. And the fact that they block people who are criticizing them tells us everything we need to know about them. I do really hope they learn from this and in all honesty hope they can still have a career because I would not wish financial instability on anyone. They just need to be more responsible and hopefully they will be. Thank you for watching. Thank you for subscribing because I know you did. Thank you to my patrons over on Patreon. If you want to follow me anywhere else, it's @ AJ Talks, Instagram, Tik Tok. Like the video. Hype the video. Stream my song Lizzy about my wife because I'm a lesbian with a wife. Bye.

[00:41:11]>> I thought love had to hurt, but then I hurt her the night the stars to gold rather than I'd never seen before.

[00:41:27]She brought me in from the cold.

[00:41:31]Somehow she unlocked my soul.

[00:41:35]She has the priest eyes and I as me.

[00:41:44]I love her.

[00:41:48]I love her.

[00:41:52]I love her.