Why God's "Cosmic Experiment" Fails Basic Epistemology | The Best Of The Atheist Experience

Added: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]I noted here that you specifically had some kind of response to why God reveals himself to some people and hides himself to others.

[00:00:08]Yeah, my name's Sarah.

[00:00:10]Um >> [snorts] >> Basically, it's a little bit complicated, but it's related to the problem of evil. So, I'm going to go into that a little bit.

[00:00:19]Um basically, if we go back to the Garden of Eden, you know, uh you had uh um >> [clears throat] >> Satan had convinced Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[00:00:31]>> Well, I was I And I And I will let you get through this. Just for clarity, we have no reason to believe that happened, and Genesis doesn't say it was Satan, it says it was a serpent. It's only later revisions that apply that to Satan, but sure, we'll go with the mythology.

[00:00:46]Okay. So, basically, in Genesis 2:16 and 17, God said that the the punishment from eating from the tree was was basically death, and Satan said uh you will certainly not die, for God knows that in the day that you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you'll be like God, knowing good and bad.

[00:01:03]So, basically, Satan there was accusing God of withholding something that was good from his creation. Seems that the serpent was the one telling the truth there, don't you think?

[00:01:12]Cuz they didn't die that day.

[00:01:15]>> well, see Well, see, this is what I'm going to get into. Because the Bible admits that when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, that both of their eyes were opened. Yeah, which affirmed what the serpent said.

[00:01:29]Well, so, this this begs the question, does this imply that the tree had magical powers? And I would say no, the tree doesn't have magical powers. It was actually symbolic. Uh uh when Adam and Eve decided to eat from the tree they were essentially deciding for themselves what was good and bad.

[00:01:50]>> I could I could see the whole story as metaphorical or symbolic or whatever else. On the other hand, if you think this actually happened um then I don't know how you can write off a magical tree when you're talking about a serpent that spoke to Adam and Eve and told them what to do. I mean, where do you draw the line on I mean, is the whole story just Did this not happen, and it's just uh a metaphor for a fall from grace?

[00:02:15]Or >> No, I would >> So, there were two people. Was there also a talking serpent?

[00:02:21]There was a serpent that Satan was using to >> Well, it doesn't matter who was using it. There was a talking serpent, right?

[00:02:27]So, we're already in the realm of magic.

[00:02:29]So, what If you're If you're in the realm of magic, why do you get to say that it's unreasonable to say that the fruit was magical?

[00:02:36]I'm not saying it's unreasonable to draw that conclusion. What I'm saying is, from my own personal opinion, that it's symbolic.

[00:02:44]Okay, so that's a symbolic, but the the people and the snake weren't symbolic.

[00:02:49]Correct. And the reason why the the name of the tree was symbolic, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, is like I said, the tree symbolized Adam and Eve's decision to decide for their own what was good and evil, and rather than relying on >> I've heard a hundred different interpretations of this story, and uh you know, Thomas Paine made a very good point in his Age of Reason that that God would never use text to convey a message. And And I think that this this uh you're sort of playing into his argument that that yeah, you can interpret this or interpret that or spin it this way and spin it that way, and and try to try to get to whatever conclusion you want to reach, but but uh you know, the story doesn't stand on its own very clearly because we're we're having to debate about interpretations.

[00:03:36]Right. And so >> a failure, right?

[00:03:40]Whoever wrote it failed at conveying the message they intended to to fail because it it's open to so much interpretation.

[00:03:48]I'm not trying to prove that the story is true. And actually, this plays a part into it, too, is that it's not our job as Christians to prove things. We're here to plant seeds, and it's God's job to >> Actually, it's your job to give a reason for the faith that you have.

[00:04:06]So, it is your job to prove things.

[00:04:09]Right, exactly. So, and and the reason why God God doesn't reveal himself to everybody actually has to has to do with the fact that [clears throat] uh this whole system, the reason why we have all the evil now, is because during that incident, essentially, what Satan was doing was calling into question God's sovereignty, his justice, his right to rule. So >> So, what's that have to do with whether or not So, God reveals himself to some people, right?

[00:04:39]Right. Does it Are there some people that he doesn't reveal himself to?

[00:04:43]Yes. So, why is God playing favorites?

[00:04:45]Does he not love everybody and want everybody to be justified in believing him?

[00:04:49]He's not playing favorites. Absolutely.

[00:04:52]No, no, no, no, no, no. If I have two kids and I want them to pay attention to me and listen to me and do what I say and one of them I never ever interact with and the other one has actually met me that's me playing favorites.

[00:05:09]Yes, but the situation isn't the same.

[00:05:12]Okay.

[00:05:13]>> The reason The reason is because in order to prove that Satan was wrong in what what he was saying, basically, Satan was calling into question whether or not God's way of rulership was correct. And this goes back to um the Garden >> see what that has to Okay, I still don't see what that has to do with why Let's say that Let's say I'm God, and Satan dares to call into question whether or not my way of ruling was correct. If I wanted to convince everybody that I existed and that I was real and that I was just, the best course of action would be for me to interact with all of them directly.

[00:05:47]Because then they have first-hand experience.

[00:05:51]Exactly.

[00:05:52]>> So, if I was a god and I chose to interact with some people and not interact with others, how could I ever condemn the people who I chose to not interact with?

[00:06:02]God is not necessarily going to condemn everybody that he doesn't interact with.

[00:06:06]And um Okay.

[00:06:10]>> for this whole system right now isn't for God to prove that he's real, that he exists, that he has power, because if Satan had called into question God's power, his his existence, that would have been easy to prove. That's not what Satan called into question. So, the So, the question that God has to answer is whether or not his rulership, his direction, is the right direction. Yeah, in order In order to do that, first he'd have to demonstrate that he actually existed.

[00:06:38]But second of all, even if the God of the Bible were to come down and demonstrate to me right now that he was real he'd still have a lot to answer for before I could ever respect him.

[00:06:48]Right, and he's going to do that. The Bible says that there's going to be a thousand >> okay.

[00:06:53]>> thousand year reign of Christ. The issue though is about whether or not belief is justified. And until he does that belief isn't justified, and certainly reverence and respect and adherence isn't justified. So, call me back after he does that.

[00:07:09]Okay. Um Cuz until then, I don't see how anybody could have good reason to believe.

[00:07:15]The only people that really have good reason to believe are those to whom God reveals himself. And And how do they How do they know that God's revealed himself? Because I was a fundamentalist Christian for more than 20 years, was studying to be a minister. If you'd have asked me at the time if I had experienced the Holy Spirit, I would have said yes, but I now understand that that wasn't the case.

[00:07:34]Most people who are Christians who have faith God hasn't revealed himself to them. God reveals himself to a very, very select group. Even in biblical >> So, they're You're saying that most Christians believe for bad reasons.

[00:07:48]Correct.

[00:07:49]>> Okay.

[00:07:50]How do you know that any Christians believe for good reasons?

[00:07:55]I mean, I can't prove that to anyone.

[00:07:57]>> How could anybody prove it?

[00:07:59]>> My purpose isn't here isn't to prove that. My purpose is to explain like I said, why God only reveals himself >> Well, it's the only It's the only point of disagreement. We both agree that people believe for bad reasons. But you're saying that there are some people who believe for good reasons, and I'm asking how you know that.

[00:08:17]I I know that because I believe that you know, God has touched my life. And And I know that that isn't sufficient for you.

[00:08:26]Um but it's sufficient for me, and and that's why I'm not here trying to prove anything to you. Could you be wrong?

[00:08:35]Yeah, I could be wrong. Cool. I I don't think I'm wrong.

[00:08:38]>> I I I know you don't think you're wrong.

[00:08:40]So, the the question then becomes if there's something that I could be wrong about, but I'm convinced of it I can usually give the reasons. Even if they're bad reasons, I can usually give the reasons for why I'm convinced. And if somebody were to look at those reasons and point out that they were fallacious, that they weren't sufficient I would be able to accept that. And so, when you tell me that you've got good reasons, all I was wondering was what are the good reasons?

[00:09:08]I mean, it it's a matter of the things that have happened in my life. My life has has been steered in a very specific direction.

[00:09:19]>> you know that?

[00:09:21]Because I'll tell you I'll tell you because I know plenty of people who think that their life has been steered.

[00:09:27]And not just by God, but by the fates or the stars or whatever else.

[00:09:31]And surely some of the people who you and I both would agree don't have good reasons also believe their life is being steered.

[00:09:39]Because it has been consistent within my life that when I deviate from a certain path, I'm always brought back onto that path.

[00:09:46]>> Well, that's been my my experience as well. When I start to behave terribly to other people, my life tends to get worse. Does that mean there's a god steering me towards better behavior?

[00:09:55]It's It's more than, you know, people treating me bad. It's more like I don't know how to describe it. I guess I guess I can't really describe it.

[00:10:07]Well, the question is how do you know that it's God?

[00:10:13]I I have faith that it's God. Okay.

[00:10:17]Couldn't you justify any position by saying I have faith?

[00:10:22]Yeah. Well, which doesn't that mean that faith is not a good reason for believing?

[00:10:33]I I don't think so. I think Really? So, if I tell you that I believe that white people are superior to black people and that's a position I take on faith, you're telling me that I might have a good reason?

[00:10:45]No. Okay. So, faith is not necessarily a good reason?

[00:10:49]Not necessarily. It can be a good reason.

[00:10:51]>> How can it be a good reason if faith can be used to justify a good position a correct position and an incorrect position equally? How do you tell the difference?

[00:11:03]Mhm. So, let let's say let's say for example instead I said that I believe that white people are superior to black people because I rolled the dice and I rolled a six. Would we agree that that's a bad and unreliable pathway to a true position?

[00:11:16]Yeah. Yeah. So, faith is identical to that.

[00:11:20]You don't you don't you don't you don't get to say that faith can be a good thing anymore than you can say that rolling a six can be a good thing a good way to a pathway to truth. You have to show that it's a reliable pathway to truth.

[00:11:32]Well, faith faith is more than rolling a dice. Faith is also, you know, when applied correctly it's based on, you know, your experiences in life. So, you know, >> that you say applied correctly. I don't know how you would apply faith correctly and from the Christian world view faith isn't even something you use. It's something that's given to you by God.

[00:11:54]It's It's not like it's a methodology.

[00:11:56]And how does it change the reliability of faith?

[00:12:00]There are people who are given faith by God and there are people who are convinced So, why would give God Why would God give a useless gift to people?

[00:12:12]Because it serves his purpose. His purpose ultimately right now is to prove his point. His point being that his way of rulership is the correct way of rulership.

[00:12:20]>> I don't see him attempting to prove any point. How do you know that God's trying to prove a point?

[00:12:25]The way he's attempting to prove it is the only way to prove that God's way is the correct way is by comparing it to all other ways of rulership without God.

[00:12:35]So, that's what this whole system is about. That's ridiculous. I don't I don't have to allow every sort of rulership to be able to know which one is better than others. We can say right off the bat without ever performing the experiment that any rulership that cuts off the head of anybody who who is is part of that system is is demonstrably worse without ever actually having to do it. We we can think about things and evaluate the consequences and extrapolate from knowns to unknowns.

[00:13:04]It's bizarre for you to claim that the all-knowing all-powerful creator of everything has only one way of demonstrating that he's right and that's to let everything [ __ ] up everywhere around so that he can come out winning.

[00:13:20]Well, you and I can justify that me and I can see where you're coming from.

[00:13:25]>> Would that not agree with that?

[00:13:26]>> Yeah. Why is your God stupider than I am?

[00:13:30]That's not true. He's not true?

[00:13:32]>> That's not true about me. So, he So, he understands the basics of epistemology and he understands what should be convincing and he understands what's right or wrong, but he can't reveal himself and explain it to people in a way that would bring understanding to people? If I created a simulation game and my simulations don't understand me, am I not a miserable failure?

[00:13:54]Actually, this this begs one of the questions that Satan had raised because when he accused God of withholding something from his creation, um you know, and he he sort of did uh initially >> Yeah. So, Satan was telling the truth.

[00:14:09]Humans are inferior to angels. Angels are inferior to Jesus. Jesus is inferior to God. Therefore, there is there is a hierarchy of creation. And in order to prove Satan wrong, one of the things that God is doing is is his revelation reveals that there's going to be 144,000 that are picked from the earth.

[00:14:29]>> Okay. Now Now you're talking about something that isn't happening that hasn't happened that you have no evidence for. You're just plucking numbers out of a book.

[00:14:36]You can't know that that's happening if it hasn't happened, right?

[00:14:40]So, this is just another exercise in you having confidence that this will happen.

[00:14:45]Where Where Where do women and atheists fall on this picking order?

[00:14:49]What was that? Where do women and atheists fall on this picking order?

[00:14:56]There have been people through history women women I I I don't see where where you're where you're Oh, well, just as soon as you establish a picking order you can put yourself above everybody else. I mean, according to the Bible men are superior to women. Right. Do you Do you buy that?

[00:15:15]I interpret this passage a little differently than than other people.

[00:15:21]Well, the man's the head of the household in the same way that Christ is the head of the church. When it comes to uh rights, the men are the ones with the rights.

[00:15:29]Um the women are traded around and become parts of harems and you can sell off your your daughter as a slave. Uh Paul didn't permit a woman to teach in church. I mean, that pretty much establishes uh a picking order.

[00:15:44]Maybe a pecker order.

[00:15:47]>> [laughter] >> Well, yeah, of course there's there's always an order. There is an order.

[00:15:50]There is, you know, Why?

[00:15:51]>> God is the head of everything. So, according to me according to the Bible when women would be at least marginally inferior to men, right? Do you buy that?

[00:16:02]We don't buy that, just so you know. Don Don's gay. According to the Bible, he he should be killed. Are you okay with that?

[00:16:11]No, actually I'm a trans woman. So, no, I don't. Okay.

[00:16:16]Well, I'm scratching my head here. I I wonder I wonder where trans women fit on that biblical picking order.

[00:16:25]Because I'm pretty sure that from those archaic standpoints about men wearing women's clothes, which is by the way, I'm talking about what the Bible says, not me. You're a woman. I'm cool with every all that. I support all of your rights, which makes me infinitely superior to the book that you're apologizing for. And the author >> But anybody who who did a literal reading of the book that you're you're advocating for would put you even lower than cis women. And then, of course, anybody who slaves is lower than that. I mean, this is the thing is what Don's talking about. If you start if you start going this picking order, um and you're doing it all without any justification other than, well, this is my interpretation of the holy book.

[00:17:09]It's It's an interpretation I believe that I have been steered to by by God essentially.

[00:17:18]Okay.

[00:17:20]I I don't see how anybody I mean, I'm I'm glad that um No, actually I'm not glad. I I I really don't know what to say because you think that you've been steered a certain direction by God and this is something that you can't demonstrate. And I don't even know how you how you came to that conclusion that this was God steering you.

[00:17:42]How did you determine that it's not you steering you?

[00:17:49]I I guess I can't really say that I have proof for that.

[00:17:59]I mean, that that's that's where my faith comes in and I And like I said at the beginning I I admit to, you know, a certain amount of faith and yeah, that might be irrational.

[00:18:08]But uh For me, it's all about caring whether or not my beliefs are likely to be true.

[00:18:13]And so, I can't believe something unless there's not good reasons. And as soon as I recognize that faith isn't a good reason, then I can no longer use faith to prop up what I believe. I actually have to come up with good reasons.

[00:18:26]And when it comes to Christianity, when it comes to the Bible, when it comes to Islam, when it comes to any of the religions, not only do I not have any good reason to believe they're true, I'm not even convinced if they were true they would be good things because they advocate for so many terrible things within the holy books.

[00:18:42]And we know that religiosity doesn't make anyone a better person.

[00:18:47]And I'd much rather deal with the world here and now and how we interact and get along and what kind of how we're going to make sure the people get equal rights and the people are treated fairly under the law and that no religion, even if it were actually correct about some supernatural realm or what happens in an afterlife, should ever get preferential treatment over any other or irreligion.

[00:19:10]Yeah, I I I don't advocate for, you know, interfering with government and all that. In fact, I stay away from government because I don't believe that that, you know, my beliefs should be be dictated. So, I I, you know, separate myself from politics completely because of that.

[00:19:30]And I don't believe in pushing my religion [clears throat] on other people, trying to force other people into my religion, but it is my purpose still to, you know, spread the good news. That That's part of, you know, what I feel I've been commissioned to do. And And that's, >> Cool. So, >> all about spreading the word and it's not about proving anything. Prove is Prove is with God. I can't do that.

[00:19:55]Well, I mean, you can give the reasons.

[00:19:58]You can follow 1 Peter 3:15 and give the justifications. Whether or not you're successful at proving it is different.

[00:20:03]But, really quickly because I'm going to move on to some other callers, what is it that you think is the good news as briefly as you can?

[00:20:12]The [clears throat] kingdom of God. You know, it it's all about proving, you know, Satan was a liar when he called into question God's sovereignty, his right to rulership. So, God's answer answer to that ultimately is going to be his kingdom and that's where proof is going to be available [clears throat] to everybody.

[00:20:27]>> Okay, so you can't talk about So, the good news is that you're convinced that something better will happen some other time because Satan, who told the truth in the myth, was actually lying.

[00:20:39]Yeah, I I believe that that good news is is right around the corner. I I I know you don't accept natural You were just talking about the natural occurrence of like earthquake and stuff.

[00:20:51]Um but, there's there's a storm brewing, you know, with Trump and everything. I believe that everything is starting to come to a head and and things are going to shift drastically in the near future.

[00:21:02]Okay.

[00:21:03]Thanks for the I mean, no offense, but you hear those sort of vague predictions every single year from all sorts of people. And so, basically, you've called in to say you're convinced that the good news is that something better is coming that you can't demonstrate.

[00:21:24]I mean, yeah, essentially. And for what it's worth, whoever picks up on that, you know, you know, God'll God'll I believe latch on to those seeds and and do what he needs to to ultimately The ultimate reason why he interferes at all with the system because if he if he interferes too much, it's essentially him corrupting the data and it's God's purpose that this experiment is not happen again. So, Oh, that's that's garbage. That's like a parent saying, "I'm not going to do any parenting because that might corrupt the data."

[00:21:53]The fact is The fact is that a God could demonstrate to every single person on the planet that he clearly exists and what his intentions are and not actually force anybody to follow along. Do you believe You You seem to believe that there's a Satan, right?

[00:22:08]Yes. Yeah, so do you also believe the mythology that would say that Satan was one of God's angels?

[00:22:16]Yes. Yeah, so Satan, in your view, knows absolutely about God's power and who he is and what he wants and still chose to rebel. So, that means there can be no problem with a God revealing himself to all of us. We would still have every opportunity to rebel.

[00:22:33]And he's going to do that. Well, when he does, call back.

[00:22:37]>> [laughter] >> Thanks. Okay.

[00:22:40]God's going to reveal himself. What the [ __ ] is taking so long?

[00:22:44]>> [laughter] >> Jesus told some people there are some still You still standing here who will not taste death until all these things have come to pass. And 2,000 years later, now all of a sudden, "Hey, there was an eclipse and there's going to be another eclipse in 7 years." So, that tells us >> and an earthquake. Oh, hang on.

[00:23:00]>> [laughter] >> I I talked about this a couple weeks ago. There's a family member who that because the eclipse happened in North America and that's relevant to her and then she finds out there's another one coming in North America in 7 years.

[00:23:10]That's the 7 years that the Bible talked about. Except that there's also a full solar eclipse in 2019 and 2020. They just don't happen to cross Missouri. And there were a hundred of them in the last century. There's going to be a hundred of them in the next century. And oh my gosh, yes, we had one of the worst hurricanes ever and things are getting worse. But, I think the odds are more likely that has something to do with climate change than end times considering you can go on government websites and find out the frequency of earthquakes and the frequency of hurricanes and their magnitude and find out that yes, while some things are happening that are worse, shit's been bad for as long as we've been keeping track of it. It's a bunch of cherry-picking to say, "Oh, look how bad everything is, but it's going to get better." And then God'll reveal himself.

[00:23:52]Well, until he does, our position is the only rationally justified one that we are not warranted to believe there's a God. If you say that later on God will reveal himself, cool. When that happens, we will then be justified in believing it. But, when that happens, you don't get to say you were right all along because you did not believe for good reasons. You believed for bad reasons. And you might as well have been predicting that you would win the lottery and then if you do, claim that you were right all along. Getting lucky doesn't mean you are rationally justified in holding a belief.

[00:24:25]>> [snorts] >> Thus saith the Lord.

[00:24:27]>> [laughter]