He’s Not Holding Back: Christie’s Bold Move for the Presidency | Open book with Anthony Scaramucci

Added: 2026-05-14

[00:00:00]Now on Open Book is Governor Chris Christie, the former governor of New Jersey, and a 2024 GOP presidential candidate.

[00:00:09]He's also the author of Republican Rescue, Saving the Party from Truth Deniers, Conspiracy Theorists, and the Dangerous Policies of Joe Biden. So, first of all, Governor, a friend for a long time, it's great to have you on the show.

[00:00:22]Congratulations on everything so far.

[00:00:25]Um I'm going to go right to the decision to running for president. You said that your wife, Mary Pat, who the Scaramucci family is very fond of, had sort of helped you make that decision. Take us through that. Uh My wife would castrate me if I speak publicly. My wife has a castration policy if I run for public office, and so that's obviously not a non-starter for me, but take us through that.

[00:00:51]Well, you know, it it really started the conversation started in earnest, Anthony, you know, probably last fall as the uh as the field started to assemble a little bit, and we kind of were watching what they were up to and how they were speaking, and particularly how they were dealing with the issue of uh Donald Trump running again for president. And as we moved into the winter, um Mary Pat continued to say to me, "I don't think any of these people are going to have either the guts or the ability to take him on directly, and he needs to be taken on.

[00:01:24]And you're the guy who can do it." Um and in the beginning, I'll tell you cuz she was she was certainly less enthusiastic um in 2016 about me running. Um and and this time, you know, she just kept pushing and saying to me, "You know, you can't allow him to get away with saying the things and doing the things that he's doing. Um it's bad for the party, it's bad for the country.

[00:01:45][clears throat] You're the one who can prosecute the case against him." And so, she was a big part, Anthony, of the decision to finally run. I think she she's right, and I think the early part of the race has proven she was right. No one else is doing this, but we are and we're doing it aggressively.

[00:02:02]Um you you It's a big deal though, Chris. I mean, let's just talk very openly. You've got beautiful kids. I've met your children.

[00:02:12]Parents, uh you know, it's a big deal. Okay? So, go ahead. Take me a little deeper. Take me a little deeper if you don't mind because right now you're doing you're doing great. You got speaking engagements and television punditry and board seats and uh you can write books and you are a very popular figure.

[00:02:34]Uh it it especially in the north you're you're popular national figure. There's no question. You could I mean, you know, you could win the presidency. Knock on wood. I would love to see you as president. Obviously, I'm one of your supporters. But, it's a very big deal to go back from being a private citizen with a very high quality of life to undergo what you're about to do. So, give us more caller, please.

[00:02:57]Yeah, look, it it it's not an easy decision as you just laid out for a bunch of reasons. One, the last 5 years out of public office have been really very good to me and I've gotten to stay in the public discussion through the stuff I've done on ABC News and some public speeches paid public speeches I've been able to give over the course of time.

[00:03:15]Um Mary Pat and I spent a lot more time at the Jersey Shore together with our family over the summers, which has been great. Um and really enjoyable to us.

[00:03:24]And you know, started my own business and and and we've been successful. So, you know, all those things are things that say, "Why would you ever want to give most of that up um in order to pursue the presidency again?" And and and it's not easy decision. And my kids were of mixed feelings about it like their mother. Um my daughters were not very enthusiastic about the idea of doing it again. Um they they're concerned about me. They're concerned about, you you how the stress and the pressure will affect me um and being back in the public limelight. My sons were a little more enthusiastic than my daughters, but still I think they would have been just as happy if I didn't do it. But in the end, Anthony, you know, um if it's in you to believe that the country matters and the things that I've seen happen to our country under both Donald Trump and Joe Biden are just things that I couldn't sit by and leave to others to try to fix.

[00:04:18]And when I looked at the other candidates, if I had a great degree of confidence in any of the other ones that they would do it aggressively and the right way both in terms of campaigning for president and ultimately being president, I I I probably wouldn't have done it, but I don't have that confidence and so it's time for me to to, you know, put up or shut up and so we're at put up time. Okay, that's fair enough. You you you I I I watched one of your interviews this morning.

[00:04:42]You said that you and I laughed actually. You said you were from New Jersey, so you're used to people saying nasty things about you in public, okay?

[00:04:50]I I enjoyed that cuz I'm from Long Island. I've been run over by a steamroller, as you know, three or four times and for whatever reason it doesn't bother me. So, what is it about the water in New Jersey or a place like Long Island uh that gives us a little bit of that fight and a little bit of that bite, Chris? We're We're tough, you know, and we grew up with tough people and we were raised in in in our case with you and I, Anthony. We were raised by tough parents who weren't given anything in their lives. Um they had to work for everything they got um and were absolutely intent on us having a better life than they did and guess what? They succeeded. Um and so, you know, when you have that kind of of of background plus, you know, I have a Sicilian mother um who, you know, was edgy and tough uh and didn't take any garbage from anybody and that was the example I watched growing up. And so, as I got into public life, the interesting thing was she didn't live for very long in my public life. Only for about 2 years of my time as US attorney. But even then, if there's anything in the paper that was somewhat negative, this really tough woman would go completely berserk um and and want to write letters to the editor and all the rest of this, which I had to throw my body in front of the stopper. Um so, you know, it's hard for families to watch this stuff. But I think for me, you know, and for you, it's it's part of who we are and I take great pride in the fact that I could take a punch and get up. I don't like taking a punch. I don't want to kid anybody.

[00:06:23]Um nobody likes it. But I like the fact that I could take the punch and get back up and start throwing punches of my own.

[00:06:30]And I've had that a lot of times in my career. And I know I'm going to have that some more over the course of the next 18 months um between now and election day 2024.

[00:06:39]So, let's get to it.

[00:06:41]So, so Chris, we we we're in the same camp, obviously. And again, I uh uh I've I've given you money and I'm I'm psyched to give you more money and I'm psyched to raise you money. I don't want to help you. Uh we've both known Trump for a long time. I think you said you've known for 22 years.

[00:06:59]I met him personally 17 years ago.

[00:07:01]Obviously, we both knew about him before we met him cuz he's been a fixture in our lives for many decades.

[00:07:08]But tell tell me about how this shapes up. How do you think when you workshop in your mind a campaign for the presidency going up against Donald Trump, um does he survive? Does he survive all these indictments? Um does he drop out? Does he stay in the race?

[00:07:28]His family is decidedly not with him this time, although Melania's tepidly with him. We both saw the special report interview last night where I sort of felt left out, Chris. He attacked everybody but but me. I felt like I was left out, but maybe because I was only there for 11 days, I didn't qualify for the the death and destruction rhetoric.

[00:07:49]How does it shape out? How do you see this?

[00:07:51]Look, he's the front runner, Anthony, and and he's a front runner by, you know, double digits, big double digits, 20, 30 points. Um and so, I don't understand how you can game this out any other way but having to take him on directly and go after him.

[00:08:08]Um there's one lane, it seems to me, to the Republican nomination for president.

[00:08:12]He's at the front of that lane, so to do it, you have to go through him.

[00:08:17]My instinct tells me, knowing him all these years, that he does not drop out, that no matter what happens, he would not be able to survive the idea of dropping out of this race voluntarily. I think he's going to have to be defeated at the polls um in the Republican primaries. I do think that if he loses one or two, he then will drop out. Um he can't take losing, as you know, that's the whole basis of this denying that the 2020 election actually happened the way it did because he just can't bear the idea to be called a loser, but he is a loser. He lost in 2018 when, you know, uh the House of Representatives when he was the leader of the party. He lost the White House and the Senate in 2020.

[00:08:58]He lost two more governor seats in 2022 and another Senate seat. And so, here we are, um as a loser party now for the last 6 years uh under his leadership. So, I think he wants to try to reverse that, but if he gets the sense early on in the primary season, let's say, Anthony, he were to lose Iowa and New Hampshire, I think he gets out because I think he can't bear the idea of the beating that would come after that. So, I think he'd say something like, "The country doesn't deserve me. The elections were rigged. I don't need this, and I'm going back to Mar-a-Lago." Um but unless he gets defeated at the polls, I don't think he ever drops out voluntarily. No have No matter how many cases are brought against him.

[00:09:42]Um okay, so let's talk about beating him then. So now you you know, and we both know the Republican parties primaries are front-loaded. It's a winner-take-all primary system. Um you've got about 6 weeks really to beat him. Obviously you have this and and and uh you know, beginning of the year. But once you get into 20 24 January, you know, you've got about 6 or 7 weeks. So I have the my thinking right? Is that a correct analysis or It is. It is. Look, you're all the time's going to matter. Yep.

[00:10:15]Yep. So how do we do it?

[00:10:17]Well, the way we do it is we start as we have right now in the last 2 weeks of the campaign, our first 2 weeks. Um we've been going right at him and going at him strong and you get a lot of attention when you do that. And that's what you need. The American people are not focusing on the presidential race right now as you know. Guys like you and I are focusing on it. But the American people aren't focusing on it. And so it's going to take enormous amount of repetition over the next 6 months to get into their psyche. And once we get past Christmas then everybody will be paying attention to it. And that's when you have to lay it on even harder. But hopefully you've laid the foundation in these 6 months. And then in these last 6 weeks, I think, you know, we don't know what's going to happen with his cases, et cetera. So you can't talk about exactly every issue you're going to bring up. But I you have to talk about how he was a failure as a president. How he failed on the promises that he gave to us. So whether it was to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it or repeal and replace Obamacare, balance the budget in 4 years. Um these are all things that he said he was going to do. Fix the immigration system. He didn't do any of it. And a lot of Republicans know that uh our agenda is not safe in his hands cuz he doesn't really care about an agenda. What he cares about is power for himself Um and retribution now against those who he thinks have done him wrong.

[00:11:37]That doesn't seem to be the great basis for a presidency and that's the case we'll be making. So, I think that's the way to do it.

[00:11:43]And as you know, he'll give us like he did last night on the the Brett Bear interview that you referenced, he'll give us plenty of opportunities for additional points to make every time he opens his mouth.

[00:11:56]You know, you're uh very well-liked in the blue-collar community. You know, my my father-in-law who unfortunately is no longer with us was a huge fan of yours.

[00:12:09]President Trump is also well-liked in that community and you identified something, he identified something. There's a forgotten group of people, Governor Christie, where they were once blue-collar and economically aspirational, but now they're blue-collar and they feel economically desperational. Um in your case, however, though, I see you as somebody that can come up with policies to help them.

[00:12:35]President Trump has been an avatar for their anger, certainly, but he never came up with any policies to help them.

[00:12:41]So, so explain to us what differentiates you and explain to us what you would do in your first 100 days in office to help these people.

[00:12:51]Well, a few things. You know, first off, Anthony, I think you're right that he's tied into their anger and that's and and that gives them some comfort, but it doesn't give them any relief.

[00:13:01]In the end, we need to give them the kind of relief that they need. So, what do you do? First off, you got to get inflation under control. It is the biggest invisible tax that these folks pay every time they go to a store and the way to do that, in my view, is to bring government spending down. So, in the first 100 days, you have to propose a budget that is going to bring significantly under control the federal budget and that's going to be a fight with the Congress, depending upon who controls the Congress, but it's a fight that you have to have because you have to send a signal to the markets, something that you know better than I, that this inflationary period is going to go away. As that goes away, rates go down, more investment in business, more investment in job creation will help um the middle class in this country.

[00:13:44]Second, I think that parents are incredibly frustrated about the educational system in our country, not only the college system, but the K to 12 system. So, one of the things I want to do very early on is propose a federal tax credit um for school choice so that parents can take send their kids to a a parochial school, a private school um if they want to and and not have to worry about whether um they have the wherewithal to afford it. You and I have been fortunate enough that we can make those decisions for our kids to send them to the very best place, whether it's public, private, or parochial. A lot of parents in this country don't have it. We need to give them that relief so that they can feel like again, like our parents felt, that they were giving us an opportunity for a greater life, and they knew education was the way to do that. You went one of you went to one of the finest educational institutions, higher education, in the country. Um and and so that opportunity for parents like yours to see their their son um go to an Ivy League school and be able to build a career off that, it takes away a lot of that anger, Anthony, that you're talking about. Um third, I'd say that we need to fix the immigration system in the country. People need to know that the immigration system works and that it's fair, that the people who immigrate legally into this country are being let in based upon their merit, and that the border and in the south is closed for two reasons. One, because it's unfair to everyone who's waiting um in a in a legal way to come in, but secondly and more importantly, um the amount of fentanyl that's coming in over the southern border, Anthony, is is obscene.

[00:15:15]Manufactured in China, sent to the cartels in Mexico, and then brought up to this country. 110,000 overdose deaths last year.

[00:15:24]Um, it's now the leading cause of death in young men between 18 and 34 in this country. Um, I'd send the National Guard down there in the first 100 days to assist our Border Patrol officers to interdict um, that fentanyl and to try to prevent as much of it as we can from coming into the country. And I'd couple with that a much more aggressive program um, Anthony on treatment and drug treatment in our country so that people who need the treatment can get it. We're not going to solve this problem by jailing drug addicts.

[00:15:56]Um, drug dealers definitely should go to jail. The ones who are profiting off of it. But the addicts need to get treated.

[00:16:03]It's a disease just like heart disease or cancer um, or diabetes. They need to be treated and can be treated. And uh, we need to save lives. And so, those are example of the things I would try to get rolling in the first 100 days uh, to accomplish on behalf of the country.

[00:16:20]Well, you know, listen, it's obviously it's a great plan. It's great policies that I believe in Chris. I I I want to ask you about the other side though because um, you know, I'll say this rhetorically, I didn't think we were going to grow up. You and I are roughly the same age.

[00:16:36]Uh, didn't think we were going to grow up in a society that was this polarized. I sort of remember more comity and get alongness if you will in the uh, body politic when we were growing up.

[00:16:48]Maybe that's not the case, but it certainly seemed like that. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong because you you're more of a student of this than that. But how do you get your policies done in an environment like this where people are at each other's throats in Washington or on the airways, on cable, in the streets, on social media. How do we do it, Chris?

[00:17:10]Well, that's one of the things I think Anthony that differentiates me from the other candidates. You know, our other candidates are basically red state candidates who have operated either as governors or as senators in states that are dominated by the Republican Party. And so they had an easy time for the most part getting their policies through. Everybody agreed. That's not the atmosphere in Washington as you know. It was not the atmosphere for 8 years when I was in Trenton in the state capital in New Jersey where I had a Democratic legislature for all 8 years.

[00:17:42]So I had to learn how to use the bully pulpit, how to use public and private persuasion to bring people along to do things like we did in New Jersey in pension reform against the public sector unions' opposition.

[00:17:57]Health benefit reform again against the the public sector union opposition.

[00:18:02]Firing the Camden Police Department because they were wholly ineffective.

[00:18:06]Bringing in a new police force and training them in a new way which now has led to a 75% drop in the murder rate in the city of Camden.

[00:18:13]These are the kind of things that we were able to accomplish in a bipartisan way. And so I think one, you have somebody who knows how to do that and knows how to work with the other side to accomplish things.

[00:18:23]Secondly, I think it also is about the rhetoric you use. You know, you know me, I'm tough. I will fight and I'll throw a punch whenever I need to.

[00:18:32]But we need to get back in Washington D.C. to the idea that we're all sent there for a reason and that reason was accomplish something that makes the country better for the people who live here.

[00:18:42]And you know, that's the kind of desire I would bring to the job. It's everyday look for ways that we could work together. I won't abandon my principles, but what I will do is not call someone who agrees with me 80% of the time my 20% enemy.

[00:18:58]They'd be my 80% friend. And that's the way you have to look at it and that's the way I'd go about it. And I hope that by getting rid of some of this Trump induced chaos and vitriol and this, you know, constantly looking back and whining and moaning and complaining about the way he was mistreated, that'll bring everybody's anger down. We'll still disagree, Anthony, but you remember, I think what what what you and I are thinking back on is times when you could sit at a dinner party or a cocktail party and disagree with people about politics, but not have it end the evening.

[00:19:32]Now, you have any of that kind of disagreement, people are so on edge and so angry and feeling grieved that it can end a dinner party, end a cocktail party where people just storm out and won't talk to each other. Mhm. I think showing people that government can get something done will bring that temperature down.

[00:19:51]So, what is the is the real leadership question, okay? I think about this often in my own life, okay? And I have my uh list. Um are there things that you could have handled differently or better?

[00:20:04]And if so, what were they?

[00:20:07]Oh, a number of things. Um if if I had to do all over again. Um there's a there's a a law in New Jersey I think that allows retired police officers and firefighters and number other public sector workers to get paid at the end of their careers for their sick time, unused sick time. So, I always thought the benefit of having paid sick time was if you got sick, you still get paid. But these men and women would bank it and then get checks for a quarter of a million dollars, 300, 400 thousand dollars at the end of their careers on the taxpayer.

[00:20:41]I went, I railed against this as governor and I got a bill to my desk that would have capped those payments at $15,000.

[00:20:50]And I wanted it to be zero.

[00:20:52]And I vetoed the bill.

[00:20:54]And I never got another bill back.

[00:20:56]And I could have capped this thing at 15. Instead today now, 9 years later, um they're they're they're still getting these huge checks. It was a mistake. And what it taught me was a bigger lesson, which is that you know, if you can get two-thirds of a loaf, you should take it and live to fight another day. Then you're only fighting between the difference between 15,000 and zero, not between unlimited and zero.

[00:21:19]Um on the on the George Washington Bridge matter, there's no doubt that the mistake I made there was some of the people that I picked to be over at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. Um and I made I made bad judgments there. Uh and you know, personnel is policy.

[00:21:37]And uh people there disappointed me. Uh and I learned a very important lesson in that, which is that there is no insignificant job that you give to anybody uh when you're in a position like governor or president. And so I'd be much much um even more discerning than I was before because of that experience and everything that it cost me and it cost the people of our state to have people go off on a on a a fraternity prank at the George Washington Bridge. Um and and it and it wasted a lot of time and a lot of energy for everybody because of what they did.

[00:22:11]The last thing I'd say is that there were moments where um when I was younger in public, I said some things that I probably shouldn't have said, used some adjectives that I shouldn't have used.

[00:22:23]Um and you know, uh it's part of who I am and my and my nature. As you said before, I'm very direct, but I also think that as you get older, you realize that there are other words you can use to be just as direct and just as blunt without being nearly as crass or insulting. And uh I think I've changed in that over the last, you know, five to six years as well. So there's some things that I would do differently um if I had a chance to do it all over again, and maybe I will um with the presidency.

[00:22:53]What What did What do you wish you went a little harder at?

[00:22:56]Say, "Wow, you know, I had I had that in my fingertips. I should have pushed harder."

[00:23:03]Look, I think that if I had to do that all over again and pushed a little bit harder for stuff, I would have pushed even harder for reducing more tax rates in the state. New Jersey is so difficult, as you know, from a tax perspective for the people who live there. And I got a cap on property taxes. We eliminated the estate tax. We reduced the sales tax. We did some good things, but we never were able to get anything done on the income tax. And I think I I wish I'd gone harder on the income tax than I did. Um I tried it a number of times, but I probably could have spent more political capital on that um if if I had thought even harder about it. I I think also um I would have started on the drug treatment issue sooner, Anthony. I think in the beginning I had more of a prosecutor's bent towards it um and an enforcement bent, but the longer I worked on that issue, the more I understood that treatment was really important. And we made great strides in the last 3 years of my administration, but I wish I would have spent 8 years in that regard. We would have made even more progress and probably saved more lives.

[00:24:04]You know, I appreciate you answering these questions with such candor cuz I do believe and I know you believe this as well that good leadership requires that level of self-accountability.

[00:24:14]A lot of times you hear somebody say, "I've never made any mistakes." As Mr. Trump is want to do, then you know you're in trouble because uh you know, yeah, you'll enjoy this, Governor. I was with him when Mike Bloomberg called him and to congratulate him on the presidency. Obviously, Mike was with Chris Christie. I mean, I'm I'm with with Hillary Clinton and he says to uh he says to President Trump, "I just want you to go out and hire the best people." And you know what Trump says to him? "I actually don't need to do that. You know why, Mike? I'm the smartest person. I'm the best person. I don't need to do that." And that was heard by like five or six people that were in the room. So, it's not like I'm you know, it's not as Trump says, he can say fake news all he wants, but you know, people heard it and saw it. It is what it is. All right, we're down to the last few minutes here. So, I have five words. I'm going to read out the words, Governor. You give me your reaction to the word. It could be a word. It could be a sentence. Ready?

[00:25:09]Let's start with Vice President Pence.

[00:25:12]Nice guy.

[00:25:14]Okay.

[00:25:16]Governor Ron DeSantis.

[00:25:18]Don't know him.

[00:25:20]Okay.

[00:25:21]Donald Trump.

[00:25:25]Lying narcissist.

[00:25:27]Okay. And and also past his sell-by date, I think. How about the word about the word Republican, Chris?

[00:25:36]Always has meant conservative to me, Anthony, and anti-government.

[00:25:41]Unfortunately, I think it's starting to change to be more like Democrats and I don't like it.

[00:25:48]Okay. All right. So, you want to reinstate, sort of revitalize it.

[00:25:53]We've got final words here from you. Make a little bit of a closing statement to our listeners why they should be supporting Governor Chris Christie for 2024.

[00:26:06]Anthony, look, I think that that our country under both Barack Obama and Donald Trump and now even more so under Joe Biden has become small.

[00:26:17]Small-minded in the things that we that we discuss.

[00:26:20]Small-minded in the things that we argue and bicker with each other about. We divide ourselves up into even smaller and smaller groups. So, we only stay with people that we agree with.

[00:26:30]We've divided our input of information into smaller and smaller things so we only hear things that we agree with.

[00:26:36]And our goals for our country become smaller and smaller.

[00:26:40]I want to be President of the United States because I want to do the big things again.

[00:26:45]I want to revitalize an economy by lowering inflation and putting spending under control so that interest rates come down and that the American businessman and woman can invest in creating jobs. I I I want to reform our our entitlement system so that seniors don't get a 24% cut in their benefits and not be able to pay their rent or buy food. I want to make America a big player on the world stage again to make sure that freedom and liberty being fought for and supported all around the world. When America is a force for good in the world, that crowds out communist China and totalitarian Russia and and the and the the mullahs in Iran. I want this America to be once again one that's leading the entire world. I want to make sure that every parent has educational choice in this country as we discussed to have a federal tax credit that allows them to pick where their children go to school, how they learn, and to be able to be a big part of supporting them in that learning. And and lastly, I want a country that once again understands what the truth is.

[00:27:49]Now, unfortunately, um there are different versions of the truth um in the country we've lived in in the last 8 years and that's not the kind of country that we've ever been. Um we've The truth matters.

[00:28:01]And having leaders who will tell you the truth whether you like it or not are the kind of leaders that we need to have.

[00:28:06]That's the kind of leader I've always been and I'll be even more of that type of leader if you give me a chance to be president of the United States. To lead with the truth.

[00:28:14]Well, I'm in your I'm in your boat. I'm rowing with you. I got to give you my last I got to give you my last word. I gave you four. Pence, DeSantis, Trump, Republican.

[00:28:24]My last word is Christie.

[00:28:27]Truth teller.

[00:28:29]All right, my friend. Listen, I'm wish you great success, okay? I got to I got to We got to round up some dough for you, brother. Absolutely. I'm I'm looking forward to that. And uh I'm looking forward to you being on you and I being on a campaign together. It's going to be good. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to having a good time with you. Just remember something though cuz I have you on tape, okay? I don't I don't need to work in the White House more than one day, okay?

[00:28:52]I just have to I have to get a 12th day, Chris, okay? You can You can have me in the photo area. I don't care. You can have me like loading toner in the copy machine, okay?

[00:29:02]I got a couple of really good ideas for you, Anthony. We'll talk about that. But we can definitely get that 12th day, no problem.

[00:29:08]>> [laughter] >> Lots of love, my man.

[00:29:11]All right. God bless. Thanks for join- Thanks for joining Open Book, man.

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[00:30:18]Uh they are the authors of Crypto Decrypted, which is a great book. It's It's debunking myths, understanding, breakthroughs, and building foundations for digital asset investing.

[00:30:32]Sorry, there there it is. Okay.

[00:30:35]And uh Rick Edelman, a good friend, wrote the forward on this book cuz I'm dropping my microphone.

[00:30:40]Uh awesome awesome stuff, guys. I really enjoyed the book because it lays out in a really easy to understand format what everything is. What is an NFT?

[00:30:54]What is the blockchain? What is a layer one technology? It's all here.

[00:30:58]And so, all you have to do is buy a copy of this book uh, and uh, you get it all. Okay, what is digital scarcity? I mean, and I mean, you know, to me when I read the uh, table of contents before I started the book. That's my first thing I always do is read the table of contents, see what it tells in the book. I said, all right, these guys are answering the questions that people want to know. Even people in our industry would benefit from reading your book because they pretend that they know things that they don't. Myself included. I really didn't understand the whole NFT marketplace until after I read Crypto Decrypted. So, so let's start with the two of you and your background. So, Jake, you go first.

[00:31:41]Tell me about your background, how you may met James, and then James, you tell me Yeah. I know your background, but I want my viewers and listeners to hear your background, James. But, you go first, Jake. I almost called you Jack in the introduction cuz I was thinking of Tom Clancy. Yep. And >> [laughter] >> you know, you know what I'm saying? I've gotten that one and I've I've gotten the, you know, uh, Jake Ryan from 16 Candles, so all good ones. Just good good movies. Um, yeah, my background, I got a degree in computer science from the University University of Texas at Austin. I focused in artificial intelligence. I did some research work in the field of AI around using neural networks for computer intrusion detection.

[00:32:22]I went out and got a uh, uh, my first job was with MCI, which doesn't exist anymore, but it was a, Mhm. S&P 100 telecommunications company, uh, and then started a consulting firm in the early 2000s and did that for 15 or 16 years.

[00:32:39]Uh, I started to get into angel investing and venture capital in 2014.

[00:32:45]I worked as a a mentor with a a venture firm out in LA. I did my first blockchain venture investment in 2015.

[00:32:55]I bought Bitcoin for the first time in in 2016.

[00:33:00]And then really thought about you know, one of my passions was was investing and so you know, venture capital is a lot about pattern matching and about understanding what's what's about you know, what's going on and some trends and investment themes.

[00:33:15]I did a lot of trading just for myself in in stocks and options and so we had James and I had been going out with hedge fund manager for dinner once a month for many moons and he said you know, well you you really understand this industry and you know, you have some good returns and history where you could you could prove that you could uh you could invest and trade and so started a hedge fund in you know crypto hedge fund in 2017 and 2018.

[00:33:46]And James was in a started out as an advisor and you can hear about him.

[00:33:51]Yep, go ahead James. Yeah, my my story's similar. You know, I computer scientist and was a technologist the first part of my career but really moved into becoming an operator. So built five businesses, bought two, sold two.

[00:34:05]And you know, Jake and I worked together originally you know, around the year 2000. And kept in touch for the for that period of time and how I got here is I never expected to be in in this space but in 2016 Jake said to me Jim, you need to go buy some Bitcoin.

[00:34:23]And it was $674 a coin.

[00:34:26]But I was way too smart for that.

[00:34:28]I looked at it and I didn't understand it and I said Jake, this is not you're not, good luck with your crazy crypto thing."

[00:34:34]And when I sold my business in 2017, I said, "Gee, maybe maybe I'm nuts, and maybe maybe it's me that's the problem."

[00:34:42]So, I I took a year and I went all over the world. I went to conferences in Dubai, I was in the EU, all over the US, Toronto, and I digested everything I could, and I became convinced of two things.

[00:34:55]This technology was going to absolutely change the world, but people didn't know how to explain it.

[00:35:02]And I would go to conferences, and people would use all the right buzzwords, but I'd say, "What does that mean?" And they couldn't really unpack it.

[00:35:09]So, ultimately, this led to, you know, becoming an advisor uh for Jake, and then um you know, coming on board with the fund and growing the fund with him.

[00:35:17]But, that's what led to uh you know, Crypto Decrypted, which is a sequel, not a sequel, but a the second book after Jake's first book, uh Crypto Asset Investing the Age of Autonomy.

[00:35:30]It's designed to explain this. The first book is almost like a textbook. The second book, Wiley said, "Could you write one for humans?" So, we kind of wrote it I love that you have your mom at the end of the podcast. We wrote this for our moms.

[00:35:41]We wanted our moms to be able to understand this space, because I almost missed it.

[00:35:47]Cuz I just didn't get it. And this is going to touch everyone on the planet, and we want people to understand it, because this isn't going anywhere.

[00:35:56]You know, as a technology, um obviously, there's an investment opportunity, but it's a technology. It's going to shape everything.

[00:36:03]Well, first of all, I can put you in touch with my mom. She'll never understand Bitcoin, just so you know.

[00:36:08]We barely got her off the rotary phone.

[00:36:10]She does have a touch tone phone, but it's like one of those wall units that you would remember from the 1980s, you know, Alex Alex Keaton used it in Family Ties.

[00:36:20]But, I But, I'm with you, but but I want to I want to give you each a chance to make the elevator pitch though because you know why why would anybody need I I mean I know the answer but I need you to give the answer.

[00:36:38]Why would anybody need a hedge fund? Why not just buy Bitcoin and go long Bitcoin or long Ethereum and shut the lights out for 5 years.

[00:36:47]Yeah, sure. I think uh we tell our LPs definitely buy Bitcoin.

[00:36:53]You know, we think uh Bitcoin is great.

[00:36:56]Um Bitcoin is sound money. Bitcoin will be at the root of uh what we call the autonomous economy.

[00:37:03]Um but money is is required but not sufficient. Um there's a a technological revolution um that we've we've just started. Uh we've really completed the age of information and we're going into a new age, what we call the age of autonomy.

[00:37:20]And it comes by through a cluster of innovations. Um IoT, artificial intelligence, robotics, and blockchain. And I would say that, you know, IoT creates a massive amount of data.

[00:37:34]AI can be used to synthe- synthesize that data into knowledge. Robotics use that knowledge in the physical realm to generate economic activity.

[00:37:43]Uh but it's really that blockchain is going to be able to use that knowledge to generate economic activity without human intervention.

[00:37:52]And that really is the the moat or the comp- the competitive advantage in this new technological revolution.

[00:38:01]In the age of information, it was about getting specialized knowledge. It was about if you'd become a lawyer or a podiatrist or a computer scientist, you had specialized knowledge and you could turn that uh into competitive advantage and generate an income.

[00:38:19]In the next technological revolution, in the age of autonomy, it's really about building autonomous operations. Um, we have knowledge now democratized with things like chat GBT. Anybody can write a program with chat GBT if if you, you know, go and use it for a few iterations. And so, what's going to be the compelling technology in this technological revolution?

[00:38:45]And you need to be able to build autonomous operations. And that's what is the you know, the innovation stack is what we invest in. And so, right now we don't have mutual funds for that yet. And so, if you want to take a diversified fund approach, hedge funds are are your opportunity to do so.

[00:39:04]And I'll I'll add on to that really quick is, you know, innovation is where wealth is generated.

[00:39:10]We look at Bitcoin as a wealth preservation asset, much akin to gold, right? Um, you know, Paul Tudor Jones just came out with another endorsement.

[00:39:19]Uh, you've got BlackRock and all these guys are saying, "Hey, this is a gold that's better than gold." And Bitcoin's gone from a penny to, you know, 69,000, a 69 million percent gain. We're not going to see that again, right? We'll see gains, but not at that level. But the innovation stack is where you can get real multiples. So, that's what we focus on and we think the real opportunity is. And um, it's based on, as Jake said, the age of autonomy thesis.

[00:39:46]But here's what's hard. There's 10,000 different crypto assets out there. How do you know what to invest in? How do you know, um, what you want to jump into? And then, once you do, candidly, do you have the stomach to ride it through? Because, you know, we're dealing with markets that are volatile, right? So, we look at the window and look at how these things are going to grow and look at the opportunity to take advantage of the overall innovation stack and, you know, provide that value to our investors.

[00:40:15]You know, and that's where we're going to get multiples we're just not going to see it in Bitcoin anymore cuz it's still so low on the adoption curve. People still don't largely understand blockchain technology and what it is, right? Companies are adopting, but it's still very very young. It's like the dial-up modem age still in this technology.

[00:40:32]Okay, I mean, you know, obviously I I agree with everything you're saying, but I want to give you a chance to say it in your own words.

[00:40:40]I think that the great thing about the book is how clear it is. Okay, so I want you both to give me an example from the book and I want you to speak with the clarity, frankly, that you speak in the book. And so so let's talk about something that nobody understands, okay? We'll start with you, DiOrio, okay?

[00:40:59]What [clears throat] What is a Byzantine general and what is the Byzantine generals problem?

[00:41:07]Okay, perfect. Um this is the thing that nobody's talking about that everyone should talk about.

[00:41:13]And this is why we wrote the book.

[00:41:15]There's a lot of books on how and and what. We wanted to write a book on the why. Why does blockchain technology matter? So, it matters cuz it solved an unsolvable computer science problem. And that's called the Byzantine generals problem. And it was a top 10 unsolvable computer science problem. And so it says this, you know, and it's got a scary name. Byzantine means you'll never understand it, but pretend it's really simple. It's actually it gets a bad rap.

[00:41:44]I've got 10 generals, you know, 10 generals and they're going to attack a city.

[00:41:49]If they do it together, they win.

[00:41:52]If they don't do it together, they lose.

[00:41:54]That's a pretty easy problem, right?

[00:41:56]The question is how do you do it without anybody in charge?

[00:42:00]So, how do you get peers to work together without someone calling the shots?

[00:42:07]Right? How do you know that the communications they send to each other are reliable? How do you know that they can act in concert? And normally, in the digital world, that's never been possible. You've always got a counterparty.

[00:42:20]Your money says whether you can Excuse me, your bank says whether you can send a wire. Or PayPal says whether you can send money. Or a video game says whether you can actually use the magic cape. Or, you know, or something from the game.

[00:42:33]And that's not how we work in the physical world. If you were sitting right next to me, Anthony, this is a $20 bill.

[00:42:40]I can hand this to you.

[00:42:41]You can take it. I pulled it out of my pocket. I hand it to you. There you go, take it. It's yours.

[00:42:47]And you're done.

[00:42:48]You don't have to ask um the government, your state, your business partner, your wealth manager.

[00:42:56]You We can just do that. We can transact in the physical world. And now, we can do that in the digital world. I can have a digital thing.

[00:43:04]I can prove it's unique if it's unique.

[00:43:07]And I can transmit it to someone else just because I want to, without the interference of a third party. It's frictionless. And it's peer-to-peer.

[00:43:16]And this is why blockchain matters. This is what makes everything possible.

[00:43:23]And the reason we talk about it so much is a lot of people are scared of the space, but once they understand this innovation, they see what's happening as an opportunity here. Now, again, the problem is, as I mentioned earlier, we're in the dial-up modem age.

[00:43:38]Right? Remember back in the dial-up, you unplug it from your wall, plug it into your your modem, and 2 minutes later you get some stream of data, and you get that.

[00:43:47]Who knew that that would evolve evolve into the phones we carry today? Or the, you know, the the smartphones that we have today.

[00:43:55]Everyone wants to get that in blockchain today, but we're still in the dial-up modem age.

[00:44:01]You know, Jake, you This is a part of your history, right? Yeah, I mean, I can just remember in the the mid-90s working for a ISP, people would call in from all country of of uh Texas saying, "I just bought the internet. Can you help me, you know, get connected?" And uh you know, we would have all these problems with connectivity in the internet age back then, but we still could envision a PCS or personal communications system or personal communication device. And we thought, you know, we'd be able to stream movies and all these things that we could do.

[00:44:34]But we couldn't do it for another decade, right? It took that long before we got the iPhone or a smartphone. You know, we had Blackberries, but but but really the iPhone was about the same smart improvement. And so, that's where we are today, where we can invision invision what the future's going to be like, but we're still dealing with, you know, technical constraints. And it's just all a part part of the adoption curve. It just takes uh some time.

[00:45:01]So, I want to be the skeptic now.

[00:45:05]I'm 60, cuz I actually am 60, and I'm a blockchain skeptic. I'm a traditional finance person.

[00:45:14]And yeah, the Byzantine general sounds cute, and you did a great job of explaining it, but really what you're talking about is just financial blather.

[00:45:23]It's a mathematical blather. It has absolutely no use cases. It has absolutely no There's nothing It's not worth It's not worth anything.

[00:45:32]Okay, can I respond to that? Okay, so when Uber came out, I just have to point out that I don't believe any of the [ __ ] that I just said, but I'm trying to Okay, okay, I I need you to respond. Okay. You gave out the straw man. So, when Uber came out, they came out with a new business model, and it was a different than we had been doing business uh prior before. No question.

[00:45:55]We call prior businesses called pipeline businesses, where they might have owned either the the sales or the demand. Like if you were a uh hardware store, you owned a bunch of supply of hardware, but you didn't own the customers, right? It was a a pipeline business. And what Uber did was to come in and provide a different type of business, a two-sided marketplace where they owned both the supply and demand and created uh a marketplace where they could meet in real time. I have a bunch of drivers and I have a bunch of people who need to go places, and they created the most efficient business model.

[00:46:36]And that business model has an unbelievably competitive moat, right? Uh you know, many people have tried to to break into, let's say, Facebook, right?

[00:46:48]Google Plus came out. It had better technology, but uh Facebook was able to keep on all of their users because everybody had already uploaded their photos, and they didn't want to convert to another network. We call those network effects.

[00:47:02]And so, Google did not win. Facebook continued to win um even when they bought Instagram. They would fight Snapchat because they were able to come out with, you know, mimicking the same functionality that Snapchat had, but uh they already had the network effects. And so, this type of model has revolutionized business and operations.

[00:47:24]Well, tokens are really just efficient two-sided marketplaces. They can generate a protocol that allows supply and demand to come together uh in a real-time market, and that that's the most efficient way to build an Uber company.

[00:47:44]In the future, all of these Uber-type companies, these two-sided marketplaces, are going the most efficient way to do to generate both the the production capital and financial capital of that company is through a token. And so, many services are going to be delivered on this. I'll give you one example. There's a token called Render.

[00:48:05]Render allows for if you have a smartphone and you have some GPU power that you'd like to give to the the platform, you can rent out your GP GPU power and Render will aggregate millions and millions of phones and computers and and GPUs and then users can use the Render token and use it to maybe get a lot of compute power to generate training for an AI agent or render a metaverse that takes a lot of GPU power.

[00:48:41]So, they can do that within this token structure. You know, they don't need a storefront and and board of directors and all these things to deliver this functionality. It is the most efficient way to deliver a two-sided market place.

[00:48:55]And in the future, when autonomous operations become the competitive advantage, this is going to be the mechanism and vehicle that allows business transactions to happen in the most efficient way possible.

[00:49:09]>> I got to carry you around with me, Jake.

[00:49:10]Okay, you you I feel like I just going to pull the back of the string and the in your back and let you rip like that.

[00:49:17]Because I I think it's a it's very solid explanation.

[00:49:21]James, let me turn to you for a second, okay? I'm going to hit you with three questions at the same time.

[00:49:26]So, give me So, give me three different paragraphs. You're ready? Yeah.

[00:49:31]Uh what's going to happen in regulation for crypto?

[00:49:35]Okay, could regulation still crypt kill it or is it beyond being killed at this moment?

[00:49:42]Is crypto bad for the environment?

[00:49:46]And are we in a crypto bubble?

[00:49:48]Okay.

[00:49:49]Got it.

[00:49:51]So, perfect. So, regulation. We need regulation. You know, we No, regulation is not going to kill crypto.

[00:50:00]Um unless we get regulation that is designed to kill crypto. The state change that's happening right now is Look, this is an innovation stack and you know, part of the reason people are still having a hard time getting their hand around is we call them cryptocurrencies. I hate that word.

[00:50:17]They're not all money. They're technologies as Jake mentioned and they can do different things. We need regulation that's appropriate for this space. Right? Um you know, we had uh the you know, Congress passed the um you know, the uh the joint house bill to overturn SAB 121 and then it was vetoed by um President Biden and that was a mistake. That was movement that was going to go ahead and allow banks to custody this. We need to empower our institutions, our banks, our businesses to use this technology. And here's And here's the issue, Anthony.

[00:50:55]If we don't do this, the US is going to fall behind as an innovator and that's what's happening now. We're seeing um obviously we have we have an election coming up. Um Trump has come out very pro-crypto, but we see that Kamala has now turned a corner, too, and she's embracing this.

[00:51:12]Uh including, you know, um making a change with uh our not-so-friend, Mr. Gensler over there at the SEC and that's really important. We need to get individuals in office who are going to embrace this or the US is going to fall behind and we can't afford to fall behind. What's going to happen is our thought leadership will leave the country. It'll go to other places where it is regulatory friendly.

[00:51:35]So, is it going to kill it? Um it it If we set it up to kill it, it will, but we we turned that corner. We need the right kind of regulation to promote innovation and we've always done it as a country.

[00:51:46]Um and it's time we do it again. And I think we're finally getting to that point. So, that's very exciting.

[00:51:51]All right. So, that's that's my spiel on regulation. Okay.

[00:51:55]And uh you know, and by the way, we we've got FIT21 coming up. We've got other bills coming. We've got things happening and there's a lot of senators who really argue my position.

[00:52:04]>> go to the environment. All right. So, the environment.

[00:52:08]A lot of people talk about, you know, and that's one of the big shell games, that this is really, really bad.

[00:52:14]Every new technology, right, is going to come forth and it's going to have some type of impact.

[00:52:21]The Bitcoin blockchain is very energy intensive, but it still uses less than half the energy used by the banking industry or the gold industry. It's kind of one of the things that we like to talk about as a shell or or or kind of a straw man argument.

[00:52:36]The reality is that this is going to move us to being more fit Necessities the mother of invention. Um, Elon Musk was pro-Bitcoin then oh my gosh, it's bad for the environment, I'm anti-Bitcoin. And then, right, he formed the Bitcoin Energy Mining Council. What's that about?

[00:52:55]That's about getting into renewables and using different types of energy and driving different types of energy. We've got hydroelectric. We've got flare gas, which is used for mining rigs. We've got wind. And being able to do these have mining operations in different areas where they can be decentralized will actually promote getting in new types of energy into the world. So, we think it's actually going to drive forward the innovation. And And by the way, just about every other blockchain out there is is is not the energy suck that that Bitcoin is. You know, the Bitcoin blockchain is a proof of work. A lot of energy is expended. Um, you know, Ethereum, proof of stake. Other layer ones, different consensus mechanisms that are not so energy intensive. So, we think it's going to really be progressive and it makes some change.

[00:53:45]So, um that's very important.

[00:53:48]Okay.

[00:53:49]Is that too far? By the way, one other thing interesting, look what's happening with energy right now. Microsoft is lighting up Three Mile Island again.

[00:53:56]Right? Cuz the the energy that's going to be required for AI, for all of these things, for for um our data center is going to be staggering. So, we have to get to new levels of energy and we're seeing it and that's not even Bitcoin or or blockchain related, that's AI related. So, we're seeing this happen across the board.

[00:54:15]All right, and that was uh what was your third one?

[00:54:17]Bubble. Oh, is this a bubble? Um no, it's not a bubble, it's a cycle. People have been There's no Mark Twain quote, um you know, the rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[00:54:29]Uh you know, someone thought he died, they published that, he responded with a telegram.

[00:54:35]People have been predicting the downside of this since it started. And the reality is now, it's been embraced. It's been embraced by the biggest asset managers in the world. BlackRock manages $10 trillion in assets, right? 10% of the world's investable assets, they're behind it. Fidelity's behind it. Um you've got 83% of the Fortune 500 are adopting blockchain technology. So, that's very interesting. Uh you've got Citigroup which has an FX product they're launching on a blockchain.

[00:55:03]Franklin Templeton is launching a money market on blockchain. And then you've got companies like Starbucks and Walmart and FedEx which are all experimenting with it. So, the technology's getting adopted. What we need to do is realize that this is an innovation and innovations take time to mature.

[00:55:23]It's not 10,000 types of money so we need to pick which one is going to be the next big money. Forget about that.

[00:55:28]This is an innovation stack. We need to go forward and um the the thing that's interesting about this is we've seen consistent cycles.

[00:55:38]We've seen these cycles go and we're entering another one right now. And the big driver for this is the monetary cycle.

[00:55:46]The big thing that we're seeing right now is liquidity being pumped into the system. We just had a rate cut. Uh they're expecting another one coming up in November.

[00:55:53]And they've seen a very clear correlation to how these markets move with liquidity.

[00:55:59]Right? We're seeing global liquidity.

[00:56:00]We're seeing with China, right? Um uh pumping money into the system. We're seeing rate cuts across the world. So, as we enter this loosening economic cycle, this should actually drive the next phase of the run.

[00:56:13]And we're expecting that will kind of go till, you know, call it roughly February 2026 is kind of our target right now.

[00:56:19]So, and that's going to be the next bull leg. Now, nothing goes up in a straight line. It will we will have a pullback.

[00:56:27]That will probably happen when we see quantitative tighten happening tightening happening again. So, we've seen direct correlations between what's happening with um with the macro cycle, with the monetary cycle.

[00:56:39]And um you know, everyone wants to bring doom and gloom. Things go up, things go down. What we're looking at is where we going to be in 18 months?

[00:56:47]And if I reasonably believe that's going to be a move forward, uh by the sun just came out here. I look very dramatic on camera.

[00:56:54]>> [laughter] >> If we think that's going to be a uh you know, a great move forward, right? In our markets, which we do, it's a great time to invest. But, the point is we're past the point of no return.

[00:57:06]This is technology that's changing the world. It's not bubble, it's not tulips, it's not seashells, it's innovation. And innovation has always driven the world forward.

[00:57:17]I would just add one last thing on that real quick. It's just that uh there's two cycles, the economic cycle and the monetary cycle. And uh crypto assets are extremely reflexive assets. They go up a lot and they go down a lot. And so, the they're more tied to that money cycle than the economic cycle cuz they have to do with scarcity. And so, when you pump more money in, that's when these assets really go up. And that's the thing to take note and to manage.

[00:57:47]It's about money money cycle.

[00:57:49]Okay, so we're at the last couple of minutes of the podcast, okay? And since you guys have listened before cuz James mentioned my mom, she always comes on at the end. Uh I have five words.

[00:58:00]So, I want you to give me I'm going to say the word and each of you give me one or two words like a Rorschach test, okay?

[00:58:06]Right? Ready? Yeah. When I think of the when I say the word investing, what do you guys think of?

[00:58:15]Who goes first? Go. I'll go.

[00:58:17]Uh diversify. Okay.

[00:58:21]Uh good putting um current um spending for future gain. Okay. I say the word regulation.

[00:58:36]Balanced.

[00:58:39]Social contract.

[00:58:45]Autonomy.

[00:58:47]Autonomy.

[00:58:50]Uh running >> Go ahead, Jake. Without human intervention.

[00:58:54]Okay. Future.

[00:58:57]Okay.

[00:58:58]I say the word blockchain.

[00:59:01]Innovation.

[00:59:03]Uh peer-to-peer transaction. Yeah, is that like security? I think the word security. All right, I say the word crypto. It means a lot to different people. What is that?

[00:59:13]An an asset that is secured by cryptography. Its truth or integrity is Okay.

[00:59:20]>> secured by its cryptography.

[00:59:22]What do you say, James? Liquidity.

[00:59:24]All right, the fact that we've got liquidity in the digital age is going to change everything.

[00:59:30]All right. Well, the title of the book is Crypto Decrypted.

[00:59:34]Uh it's debunking myths, understanding breakthroughs, and building foundations for the digital asset investing. And I got to tell you, it's a great book. Learned a lot.

[00:59:45]Proud to be part of it with you.

[00:59:48]And I wish you great success. And you see, I'm right on time here cuz the paddy wagon's coming to [laughter] take me away, James.

[00:59:54]All right. All right. And I'm I'm just asking them to take me voluntarily without the straightjacket. Brooke, I I appreciate the way that we finished the podcast. That was very kind of them.

[01:00:04]Right? They were timing it. Right, exactly. All right. God bless, guys.

[01:00:08]Appreciate Anthony. Say hi to your mom for me.