It's Our Gas - Answering your questions on taxing gas

Ajouté : 2026-05-12

[00:00:02]Okay, we're here to talk about taxing gas with David PCO. My name's Lincoln.

[00:00:08]I'm from part of Dave's team. You ready to do this?

[00:00:11]>> I think so. Yeah. What a huge number of questions that have been sent in. Like literally hundreds of questions. So, we're going to do our best to get through the the most commonly asked ones. We won't get to all of them, but you know, thanks thanks to everyone who's engaging on this and really pushing it. This this has become a huge issue in politics this year.

[00:00:30]>> Yeah, I think it's I think it's very close to over a thousand questions just on the video where we asked for people to submit questions. That's not counting the I want to say tens of thousands of comments across all of the other posts that you've put up recently. So huge amount of interest. So this is an issue that you've been talking about for a long time. It's something that's been campaigned on for a very long time in the public sphere, but I think it's fair to say it sort of hit a whole new level with your uh clip that's now gone viral.

[00:01:00]So, David, you been going on about this for a long time.

[00:01:03]>> A lot of people have been going on about this for a long time. You asked one simple question that went viral on social media. Are we still getting more from beer XISE than from PRRT, petroleum resource rent tax? Why did you ask that question? Well, I think firstly, I've been going on about this for a long time because Australian gas belongs to Australians. This is a finite resource that we know we haven't been getting a fair return on on the export of this resource >> and been pushing the government to do better for a long time. Many others have been doing that. And then going through uh budget papers, literally five lines apart, is petroleum resource rent tax, which is how we meant to get a return from offshore LNG, liquid uh natural gas, and beer excise. And beer excise is you almost double what we're getting from PRT. And so figured, well, let me let me ask some questions at at estimates and just get them to confirm this because this this doesn't seem right. And I think we've seen Australians um see that and get get angry that that that we're currently getting fleeced.

[00:02:14]>> And you asked that, as you mentioned, at Senate Estimates, and you asked that directly to Treasury, whose entire job is to keep track of the money that comes into the government and the money that that the government is spending. So this is not just some, you know, alleged figure that you're pulling out of nowhere. the very diligent public servant from Treasury went through the papers and answered as they should accurately and fairly with what is right there in the budget papers like you say a few lines away from each other before we get jump into all the questions that have come in through social media I think we probably need to get a lay of the land a bit first so can you tell us a little bit more about how we actually tax gas in Australia right now currently >> sure so there's a really important distinction onshore gas and offshore gas. Onshore gas, you have the Queensland and WA governments collecting royalties. Then a lot of that gas is exported or sold into the domestic market. On offshore gas, we basically get nothing. Rather than having a royalty, we have the petroleum resource rent tax, which was set up for oil in Bass Strait, >> and it's actually worked fairly well for oil projects. We've got a decent return from extraction of oil in Commonwealth waters. Then came along the gas boom and we've basically got nothing.

[00:03:38]>> Finally, a few companies have started to pay, but it's really not working. And you know, expert after expert have pointed out that we seeing huge volumes of gas extracted from Commonwealth waters, Australian gas, then being exported, and we're basically getting paid nothing for that gas. H. And so when you asked that question at estimates, that was very specifically Berx ice compared to what you've just explained there, the petroleum resource rent tax, which is what we're supposed to use to get a return from our offshore gas.

[00:04:10]>> Exactly. You're comparing, you know, two things. Beer excise. When you go and buy a beer, the government clips the ticket.

[00:04:17]They add all that up. That's that's the the beer excise. You got to remember that's not the spirits excise or what we get from wine. Those are two other very big uh numbers.

[00:04:27]>> Yeah.

[00:04:27]>> But it's comparable to the petroleum resource rent tax because PRT is how we're meant to clip the ticket >> on offshore gas. But because of this system that is so complex and has been totally gamed by gas companies for decades now, we're not getting a return.

[00:04:44]And so I think that is where this campaign for 25% gas export tax comes from. We've got a complex system that isn't working. let's move to something that is far more simple, harder to gain, and actually gets us a return for the export of our gas. So, because of the PRT setup, we're in this crazy situation where 56% of gas that's exported from Australia is exported royalty-free.

[00:05:08]>> And in the 4 years till 2024 2025 financial year, Australia exported $170 billion of royalty-free gas.

[00:05:19]>> That is huge. That that is massive. And we're expected to export the same amount up till 2030 royalty-free. Like what are we doing? This is Australia's gas and we're exporting it royalty-free. That that makes absolutely no sense.

[00:05:35]>> So one thing that we do hear really often is that PRT isn't the only tax that these companies pay. Is that sort of a fair way to frame it?

[00:05:44]>> It's obviously not the only tax that they pay. You'd hope that they're paying corporate tax on profits. They're paying state and territory taxes like uh payroll tax. But PRT is how we're meant to get a return from offshore LNG. And I think an example here might help. If you look at Impex, which is a wholly foreignowned company, uh exports more gas each year than New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australian um households com combined uh use and has paid no royalties, no petroleum resource rent tax, and just 484 million in company tax on 81 billion worth of revenue. That's $81 billion worth of Australian gas that has just been shipped off and exported. Um that's a rate of return on revenue of 0.6%.

[00:06:33]If we look at Norway, they're roughly getting 60% return on revenue. So you imply well from our gas, >> aren't paying for the gas, and then, you know, seem to find a way to not pay much corporate tax either.

[00:06:47]>> I think we'll come back to Impex again later. This does lead nicely into what was a fairly common question that we saw through um what was submitted on on socials. How much are they actually paying? Nowhere near enough. We hear big numbers thrown around. uh but there's there's a lag in data and the most recent figures from the department of industry science and resources are from 2022 uh23 and they have the value of exports at $92 billion I think if you add in domestic sales we're looking at around hundred billion earnings from the uh industry industry claims that they paid 21.9 billion last financial year >> yeah can you can you I don't a lot of people might not be following on socials but you've done some digging on that number. Can you tell us the background of that?

[00:07:44]>> Well, we heard this $21.9 billion number start to come up. Um the gas lobby starts using it. The prime minister then starts using it. Uh opposition uh politicians are using it and so we were you know we've been interested well where does this number come from? And it started out if you went to the um Australian energy producers the gas lobby's submission to this Senate inquiry that we just we just held and you clicked on the the source it took you to a broken link and so did a video on that saying well how can you have your source being a broken link.

[00:08:16]>> They then updated the link and the um it basically went from the submission to the website when you clicked on the website link it took you back to the submission. And when you clicked on the submission link, it took you back to the website. Like absolutely no transparency, >> an infinite loop of >> where this comes from. So we did another video on that. And so guess what? They just deleted the link. So now it's just not hyperl. It just says, "Oh, it's from some, you know, member survey." There's absolutely no transparency over where that comes from. And so I actually asked the parliamentary library to to look into what the actual figure was. And the most recent figures available are from 2023 24. And for that year, the gas industry claims to have paid $21.5 billion. The parliamentary library research on publicly available data found the actual figure is 15.2 billion.

[00:09:09]So there's more than a $6 billion disparity there. You know, that's 30 times as much as we spend um on the disaster ready fund to prepare us for, you know, fires, floods, cyclones, make communities more resilient. a lot of money and they seem to just be fudging these numbers and you know no one's actually asking well why aren't you just using atto and and treasury numbers surely you don't just get to put your own numbers out there and have the PM repeat them.

[00:09:37]>> Yeah, I think I think this is is a common tactic that we've seen from the industry. they sort of start talking about all of these different numbers and all the different ways that they pay uh money and and different taxes and it all goes back to Australia and they lobby in all of these numbers which we don't actually know as you have just outlined where they're coming from. There's actually no transparency on what numbers have or haven't been included.

[00:10:02]But I think the key thing is that's all a bit of a distraction. Like over here you have paying your corporate tax, paying your payroll tax, paying all the other things that are related to your business.

[00:10:13]Paying Australians for the resource is a totally separate issue that is irrelevant from all of these other figures that you're talking about.

[00:10:20]>> Who else gets who else gets the raw materials for for free?

[00:10:23]>> Yeah.

[00:10:24]>> And sure, you have all the deductions and everything to reduce your corporate tax, but why are we giving them the the actual gas for free? And you know, one of my frustrations in this Senate inquiry that we just had was when the gas companies were up, they were telling us, you know, this is how much um we've invested. This is how much tax we've paid. And I was sitting there, okay, well, great. Thank Thank you for your contribution. Um what was your revenue last year? Oh, we we don't know. We'll we'll have to get back to you on that.

[00:10:56]These are the you know one one instance it was like sort of essentially the CEO of Shell saying I can't tell you what the revenue was last year. I said okay well how much gas did you sell? Oh I don't actually know can't tell you what the how much gas we sold. And so they're throwing these numbers at us saying oh we contribute all this thing but they don't want to address the fact that they are exporting eyewatering amounts of Australian gas and they want to try and conflate paying corporate tax with actually paying for the raw material.

[00:11:23]you know, we don't allow property developers to, you know, make big investments, do developments, sell them off, pay corporate tax, but get the land for free. Like, no, they pay for the land as well.

[00:11:34]>> Yeah.

[00:11:34]>> And yeah, they can deduct all sorts of costs from their corporate um tax, uh, you know, their their tax on profit, but we're we're allowing these gas companies to do the to do things on on both sides.

[00:11:46]One, reduce their corporate tax, which they're very good at. Santos is a good example where they sold tens of billions of dollars worth of gas and paid zero cents in corporate tax and at the same time they're gaming the the PRT side of the equation which is meant to be how we get a return for offshore LNG.

[00:12:04]>> Should we just be trying to reform the PRRT? Is that the problem here? Is that is that the fix is to just redo the PRT?

[00:12:12]>> Also, some people will say, well, let's just reform the PRT. It's it's essentially a superp profofits tax. This sort of windfall profits uh tax that when companies supposedly make a lot of profit, we claw back a big chunk of that. But it's very comp complex. And you know, we heard in the Senate inquiry from a former executive at BP who says, you know, back in 2000 when they were considering changes to the um PRT, >> uh BP and others fought as hard as they could to make sure that no changes were made that disadvantaged them. And he said it was great. You know, it's worked very well for gas companies. So >> my view is that these companies thrive when there's complexity. They're gaming the system at the moment. They're playing by the rules. Yes. But I think we need to actually change those rules.

[00:13:04]And that's why I think a 25% gas um export tax on revenue. If you sell 100 bucks worth of Australian gas, you pay us $25 >> for that gas. That seems fair to me. You can't game the system. And we do away with this this PRT which isn't working.

[00:13:21]like you know in the UK they've had a similar sort of u PRT arrangement on projects that are now decommissioning they're having to refund refund these companies for the decommissioning costs and I asked at the Senate inquiry and it sounds like we'll be in the same position where we get to the end sure we you know we get $1.5 billion dollars of PRT a year and we we're meant to be grateful for it and then these big gas uh projects get to the end of their life and we're potentially going to be handing that money back to these companies So we as in at the Australian taxpayers would be needing to pay back the >> that's what's happened in the in the UK with decommissioning and all the questions asked at the Senate inquiry everyone said well yeah hasn't happened yet but sounds like it probably could happen here like this is a this is something that I think we urgently need to uh reform and you know Dr. Dr. Ken Henry, who's the former secretary of the of Treasury under John Howard, um when asked about the PRT, said, "Honestly, I'd tear it up and start again." And I think that's where something like a 25% gas export tax comes in.

[00:14:24]>> You've mentioned the the 25% tax on revenue there a few times.

[00:14:30]By far, without a doubt, the most common question or comment that was was coming through on social media was, "Why 25%.

[00:14:39]Why don't we do 78% or more like some other countries like Norway do? Can you just break down again in really simple terms why you're saying for a 25% on revenue rather than a a bigger number that's instead on profit?

[00:14:55]>> Mhm. Well, I think firstly it's shows just how much support there is to get a fair return for our gas exports where people's first response isn't should we do this but you know how much should we be getting back.

[00:15:08]>> Yeah.

[00:15:08]>> And it really comes back to what I was saying earlier where the 25% gas export tax is on revenue. Um if you look at Norway it's 78% on on profit. They've got a different system there. Um here we know that these companies are masters of profit shifting and the PR hasn't worked because it's uh complex. The gas industry thrives on that uh complexity.

[00:15:36]And I think we need to take all that away and say, okay, well, let's go to a really simple system where you just pay us for the gas that you export. And industry claims, well, if you did a um a 25% gas export tax, uh that would be an effective tax rate as high as 83%. It's widely accepted that this figure is wildly uh inflated.

[00:15:59]>> Yeah. But I think 20 25% on on revenue represents a fair return and I think it's a it's a credible uh achievable starting point and modeling shows that that 25% gas export tax would raise about $17 billion a year in a normal year. Uh had it been introduced when the Albanese government was first elected, we would have received $70 billion. you think of what that could have done in terms of investing in the services that Australians need, paying down some debt, setting up a sovereign wealth fund.

[00:16:32]>> And I think critically, one of one of the great things about a gas export tax is it actually reduces the price of gas here in Australia because it's obviously 25% cheaper to sell gas to Australians than it is to export it.

[00:16:46]>> Yeah. Because it's only that 25% on exports.

[00:16:49]>> Exactly. And the thing we want now is for Australian manufacturers, businesses, households to not be paying ridiculous international prices for our own gas. And the number of times over the last four years I've either met with or even been at press conferences with uh manufacturers who are still using gas, fertilizer, uh manufacturers, all of these things that are actually really critical here in Australia. And they're saying, "Listen, we're paying more for our own gas than Japan >> is importing our gas for. That that doesn't make sense." And so the 25% gas export tax actually does that.

[00:17:20]Essentially, it's anti-inflationary. You know, we've just seen the Reserve Bank um pull the sledgehammer out and hammer households again by putting up interest rates. This is something that would reduce um inflationary pressures here in Australia. So, it's it's sort of mindboggling why there's so much opposition from the major parties to this.

[00:17:40]>> Yeah. Something that has come up time and time again is Australia being in this crazy situation where we are paying international prices for our own gas. And part this ties into all of that because there is no incentive for these companies to keep some of the gas here in Australia to sell to Australian households, businesses and manufacturers.

[00:18:03]So we end up putting just jumping in there and being paying the same price as any other country who might not have any gas as part of their natural resources and we're paying the same price as everyone else. Well, there's actually this situation that's been happening in Queensland where Santos has been buying gas from the domestic market, from the spot market and then exporting it. And so all the other companies are really annoyed because Santos has essentially entered into these contracts for more gas than it can actually produce. And so it's buying up gas which you know Santos denied this at the inquiry saying us buying gas from the domestic market isn't increasing prices. But you know it seems like economics 101 to me that them buying gas here in Australia and exporting it is clearly um adding to potential supply um issues but also raising the price. And so this would actually ensure that it's cheaper for Australians to have Australian gas. And surely that's what we want it to benefit us through the transition and to get us a really good return when we do export it.

[00:19:08]>> Yeah. All right, let's jump back into the questions coming through on socials.

[00:19:13]We have one here. Guy says, "Please rebut the latest talking point. It is a bad time to do it as we will upset our allies in a time of fuel insecurity."

[00:19:24]Mhm.

[00:19:26]>> Well, the thing we heard through the Senate inquiry was it's never a good time to get a fair return on the exports of our gas. And again, we had a former gas executive say, "Hey, this is what we always said, like now's not a good time.

[00:19:39]Sovereign risk, all these other other arguments." But I think the really key piece of evidence that we heard through the Senate inquiry is that these gas exporters are actually price takers.

[00:19:51]This is an internationally traded commodity. They're not setting the price. They're selling at the international price. And so what a couple of the companies um actually told us, Chevron and Impex, is we'll have to keep selling at the same price. We'll just have to absorb the 25%.

[00:20:08]>> It's coming out of their their profits, >> which is exactly what we want. We want them to pay us 25% to export our gas.

[00:20:16]And so all this talk about, well, this is going to compromise things with Japan and South Korea, they'll still get the same amount of gas at the same price.

[00:20:24]The difference is is that these companies who are exporting our gas will have to pay us for it. And so I just think it's a really convenient line. The other thing that we heard from economists is that now is exactly the time to introduce this because these companies are making wartime profits. We we saw when Russia invade Ukraine in the next 12 months, gas exporters in Australia made an additional 45 billion dollars. So they've got a lot of cash to be able to actually pay us for our gas.

[00:20:54]So now is the time. Uh I think this is the line that the government is going to uh keep using, but we really need to push back and say, "Hey, we can be a reliable ally in a time of crisis and also just get a fair return on the export of our gas."

[00:21:10]>> Yeah. you you just mentioned Japan there. I want to ask uh what you thought about Japanese uh the Japanese prime minister's visit because we did have a question from Cassandra come through.

[00:21:23]She asked, "What's your take on the PM's deal announcement today with Japan? What does this mean for the gas tax movement?" It feels like a kick in the face to be honest.

[00:21:32]>> It links back to the last question. Uh Japan hates the idea of us getting a fair return on the export of our gas.

[00:21:40]Not because it's going to interrupt supply or mean that they'll pay more uh for the gas, but because Japan actually invests in companies like Impex, who as we talked about earlier are getting a lot of gas for free and clearly making huge profits and so the Japanese government benefits from that investment. But then Japan is actually really smart. They have an import tax on all fossil fuels including gas and actually raise more uh from the import of gas than we raise from petroleum resource rent tax. The export of our gas despite us being one of the top three gas exporters in the world. Japan having zero gas fields. They're raising more.

[00:22:19]>> So So Japan makes more on Australian gas than the Australian government is making off Australian gas.

[00:22:27]>> Yep. So they both have an import tax.

[00:22:30]They've used that tax to actually build up 90 days of liquid fuel supplies, which is what everyone's meant to have.

[00:22:37]>> Must be nice.

[00:22:38]>> We've got a month as we all have uh found out. But then Japan actually imports more gas than it needs now, and it exports gas. So again, Japan has no gas fields, but they've become this essentially middleman where they import gas, then they export it. And we know they made about a billion dollars last year from on selling gas. So of course they don't want things to change.

[00:23:00]They're getting cheap Australian gas, >> exporting it and doing very well for themselves and you know they are obviously firmly focused on what is best for the Japanese people and that is the current system. But what we've got to say is well what's best for the Australian people and we can still be a reliable ally to Japan. They're a really important ally. They'll still get the same amount of gas at the same prices but we'll actually get a return. And and I I take real offense to foreign governments telling us that we shouldn't get a fair return on the export of our gas. Like that's for Australians to decide and that's for surely politicians to actually say we're going to put Australians first and we're going to have a system that ensures that we just get paid for a natural resource, a finite natural resource. Yeah, they've obviously like the Japanese government is smart, very smart. They would know that this is the the situation. I don't think it's it's on us to be casting shade on them for for doing a good job for the people of Japan. I think it's really on us to put the pressure back on the Australian government to say, "Hey, what what are we getting out of this?

[00:24:09]Can you can you get a better deal for Australians?" We've had another one from James.

[00:24:14]The government's argument is that there's historical contracts in place, including set trading terms with the gas giants. Can we still impose a 25% tax on gas exports?

[00:24:27]>> Well, the short answer is yes. But this is an area where you probably need to take a bit more care. And if you know it is decided that those contracts won't be uh affected by, we could say all new contracts because a lot of the big contracts actually come up in a few years. You can say all contracts going forward are subject to a 25% gas export tax, but the underlying principle remains that Australians should get a fair return on the export of our gas and that is not currently happening.

[00:24:55]>> All right, we're going to go to Anony's question next.

[00:24:58]My question is well Anony's question is why the government appears to work for big corporations at the expense of taxpayers which is everyone contri contributing whilst some corporations have access and lobbying groups to maximize their profits at our expense. I think there's a few reasons. Uh, the gas industry has historically been better organized, better resourced, and far more persistent at lobbying for what they want. And not just lobbying, but then saying, "Hey, if you don't do this, uh, we're going to run a multi-million dollar campaign against you."

[00:25:34]>> And that came up in the hearing, didn't I? You asked, uh, was it the CEO of Shell again if they were contributing to a campaign against this gas tax? So the head of Shell, who is also the chair of the gas lobby, said, "Yep, we've contributed a million.

[00:25:53]Six or seven other gas companies have contributed a million dollars. And then the smaller ones have contributed a small amount." So, you know, you add all that up, they've probably got about $10 million just for this campaign. So, this is this is a very wellresourced um industry.

[00:26:09]So, you've got the the ad campaigns.

[00:26:12]We've seen it in the past. We're seeing it at the moment. And then you've got donations and lobbying. You know, gas companies, the gas lobby, donate to the major parties. Uh they lobby incredibly hard. They spend a lot of money on lobbying. There's a revolving door where you see politicians leave their job and go and work for work for these companies. The same things happen happens with ministerial um staff. And so I I think, you know, there's this system where it's just been easier for the major parties to do what the gas companies want rather than what's in the best interests of all of us. But I think that's shifted now. We're seeing more and more Australians uh angry about this and actually just hammering politicians, hammering their local politicians, saying, "Hey, where do you stand on this? Why are you putting vested interests, your donors, uh the people who are running these campaigns to not have to pay for our gas, why are you putting them ahead of us, >> ahead of what's in the national interest, what is fiscally responsible, uh what's actually good for our kids and our our grandkids? Like, who who you in there to represent?

[00:27:18]>> Yeah.

[00:27:18]>> The gas lobby or us?

[00:27:20]>> And so I I honestly think um things have have have changed here and you know that's on all of us to continue to push and and keep that pressure going.

[00:27:28]>> Yeah. Can we just touch on the lobbying there because I know that something that people probably don't appreciate is that there's two kinds of lobbyists that can come into Parliament House. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit?

[00:27:40]>> Sure. This this honestly blew my mind when I was this wild >> elected as a as senator. Turns out any politician can sponsor an unlimited number of people to have these access or areas passes to Parliament House and no one ever knows. There is no transparency. Like that is just the the the the most insane system. You know, I'm an elected representative. Surely the people I sponsor their pass, people who elected me should actually know who I'm sponsoring a pass for. And so we've got I think the last count is like 2,200 people who have access all areas passes to Parliament House. We've got no idea who they are, who they represent, and who gave them their pass. And as as you sort of said in the question, everyone kind of thinks, oh, well, if you worked for Woodside or Santos or um Quantis in government relations, you're obviously a lobbyist. No, >> you're not a lobbyist. Apparently, you're what they call an in-house lobbyist, and so you're not on the lobbyist register. Uh there's very little transparency. You just get a sponsored pass and and on you crack. So, you know, we've done a lot of work on this trying to say, hey, access to Parliament House is a good thing. You want people to be able to get in there, whether it's from, you know, uh, peak bodies, companies, uh, community groups, um, NOS's, they need to be able to access the building, have their say, but there needs to be more transparency around it.

[00:29:04]>> And there's just such a tragic lack of transparency. And every time I asked these gas companies, uh, the gas lobby, do you have a sponsored pass? Yes, I do.

[00:29:13]Who gave it to you? Not going to tell you. which stands in stark contrast to a whole bunch of other you know the National Farmers Federation. Yep, we've got one and you know this politician gave it to us. So I I just don't understand why there is a lack of transparency there and you know the major parties and even the Greens uh don't want to see this changed and so uh we've you know we've launched passregister.com.au where people can actually go and see the passes that have actually been uh disclosed. So I think a lot of the independents have done that.

[00:29:47]As I said, no one from the major parties, no one from the Greens is willing to disclose. And then at Senate committees, I just ask, well, do you have a sponsored pass? Who's it from?

[00:29:54]Like surely this isn't something you should be ashamed about. You should you should stand next to the person that you've sponsored their pass to.

[00:30:00]>> Yeah. And it it kind of creates sort of two tiers of lobbyists. Like if you're someone who's representing a community group who might you might not have deep political connections or know a person who knows a person who can ask a member of parliament to sponsor your pass then you're on a public register. Your name is out there when you go into the building is publicly available information. But if you work for a really big company that has strong connections who can get a parliamentarian to just sponsor a pass for you then you're not held to the same level of of scrutiny that those other lobbyists are held to.

[00:30:33]>> Yeah. I mean, I before I go into politics, I just assumed that Australia was better than the US and the UK, but our system is so loose. It's so loose.

[00:30:42]Like, even if even if you're a registered lobbyist, at least there's a code of conduct. But turns out the worst thing that can happen to you is that you just get a few months banned from Parliament House. Like, you just got to sit on the sidelines for a few months, have a bit of holiday, mate, and then you're back into it. So, >> straight back in.

[00:30:58]>> It's not working. And I think it is honestly part of this whole system why we get these decisions that are aren't actually in the best interest of all of us. They're in the best interest of the vested interests who have access who have money who spend money on political donations on you know attending all of these dinners and lunches with the prime minister and the treasurer and others.

[00:31:19]>> Uh you know this is this is a big part of why people are getting really frustrated with politics. The next most common question sort of was asked in a in a bunch of different ways, but I'm going to essentially sort of summarize it as why are you focusing so much on the 25% on gas exports? What about all all of the other resources that Australia has? Why not iron ore? Why not coal? Why just gas? Well, starting here because I think it's the most egregious example. We're one of the biggest gas exporters in the world and we've just taken such a different approach to somewhere like Norway who now have a $3 trillion sovereign wealth fund. We've got a trillion dollars of national debt.

[00:31:59]Every time there's an energy crisis, we feel poor.

[00:32:03]>> We don't feel like, oh, we're getting a good return because the price of gas has gone up. No, we're paying international prices and something like PRT isn't actually returning that much more. So it absolutely needs to change and I focus on it because I think there's broad recognition that it needs to change but absolutely across the board we should be saying to multinationals you can come and benefit from our stable democracy from you know everything that Australians love about Australia but you know need to actually pay us for that resource whether it's critical minerals whether it's renewables companies here they need to pay tax here in Australia whether it's data centers you know big tech big tech are masters at profit shifting you know Facebook and and and and others, they'll raise billions of dollars um through people paying for for ads here in Australia and then find these really creative ways of shifting that to parent companies elsewhere where they don't have to pay as much tax.

[00:32:56]>> Yeah.

[00:32:56]>> So, you know, this is has been the focus cuz I think it's egregious. It needs to change. But clearly across the board, there's a real need for for much broader tax reform in Australia. And I think particularly in the face of artificial intelligence, we're going to have these huge multinationals who potentially going to be displacing jobs and under our current setup probably not paying a lot of tax here. So the government doesn't seem to want to put many safeguards in place. This is something we're going to have to deal with as a country.

[00:33:26]>> Yeah. And I think part of the urgency is just that it's a finite resource, right?

[00:33:29]like if we don't get the tax settings completely right in the first go with tech companies or renewables, well, it's going to happen again the next year and the year after that. That those businesses continue and we can adjust those tax settings along the way. Once the gas is exported, it's gone. Like that's you don't get a you don't get a second crack at trying to tax these resources.

[00:33:50]>> Well, it's a it's exactly it's a finite resource. Once that gas is exported, it's gone forever. And we also know this is an industry that's not going to be around forever. So we have to actually get a return now while we're exporting huge volumes of gas. So we actually invest in things like research and development. You know, as a as a country, we have hit record lows of investment in R&D as a percentage of GDP. That does not bode well for the future. We need to be diversifying our economy and actually investing in solutions to these massive challenges that we're facing as a country. And yet instead we've got this, you know, budget that is in sort of a structural deficit and a trillion dollars of national debt.

[00:34:30]We've got to find a way to turn that around.

[00:34:32]>> I think plenty of Australians are going to agree with that and it seems pretty clear from the response that we're seeing across the board that people support this and they want to see this happen. Well, you know, I think on that the the thing that I've tried to talk about a lot and I've seen the Senate is like this is not a left versus right issue.

[00:34:51]>> And so many of these big challenges that we're facing are not left versus right issues. They're actually vested interests and they're strangle hold on the major parties at the moment versus the Australian people. M >> and you know the media and particularly the major parties love to sort of fight each other over you know culture war issues left versus right all this kind of stuff and then you know we see it every day how many times do the major parties sit and vote together against the crossbench when it comes to lobbying reform when it comes to the publishing of ministerial diaries when it comes to getting a fair return on our gas exports they're voting for not Australians but for vested interests >> and I think you know That is why this is such a critical issue because one, there's $17 billion on the table that we should be getting for exporting a finite resource. But two, I think it actually talks to the bigger challenge we're facing, not just here in Australia, but globally with this declining trust in politicians, decline declining trust in institutions and declining trust in our system because we are making decisions that are not in the best interest of the people. And people are saying, "Well, what on earth are you guys doing? This system's not working for us." And you know, this actually came up at the Senate inquiry. I asked um Ken Henry a question about this. And he said, "Yeah, this is this is way bigger than just a gas, you know, getting a fair return for our gas. This goes to trust in institutions, trust in politics." And so I think it's it's critical that we we do it. where we actually um make the changes that we need to see to start to restore that trust because, you know, let's face it, we're facing some pretty big challenges as a as a country, as a as a as a global community. Uh and we actually need leadership and people actually trusting people who are elected to make decisions that are good for us, good for us now, and good for us into the future.

[00:36:46]>> And I think that was easily one of the most common other themes that came through. We had I think I liked how Jude put it. Jude said, "What can everyday people do to pressure the government into making the necessary changes?

[00:37:01]>> Keep the pressure up." You know, we're seeing people commenting on politicians posts just calling out the, you know, using gas industry talking points and actually saying like who who do you represent? Are you there for us? Are you there for the gas industry? So I think keeping the pressure on publicly and then you know we've set up a website ourgast.com.au you to make it easier for people to write to their local MP. It makes a difference when you start receiving hundreds of emails and phone calls saying, "Hey, where do you stand on this issue? We want a 25% gas export tax." Clearly, you know, the major parties are are are feeling it. So far, they're sort of towing the the the gas industries line, >> but we're starting to see some backbenches start to say, "Hey, no, this needs to change." And we we've seen the work that Ed Husk's doing. um Senator Anander Raja also from Labour in the in the Senate has been talking about this and so I think we're going to see more and more people say hey this has to change. So thing I'd say to people is yeah keep the keep the pressure up any way you can and share this episode. If there's someone that you know that is maybe a fence sitter or it's it's just not something that you think they're aware of. Flick it over and and uh get the awareness up around the community.

[00:38:18]>> Good plug link.

[00:38:19]>> Yeah. Yeah. Can't can't forget the plug.

[00:38:20]I'm going to chuck in one final question.

[00:38:24]Why does this matter so much to you?

[00:38:28]Because this is a finite resource that belongs to all Australians. And once it's gone, it's gone. And we're not getting a fair return.

[00:38:35]>> This is $17 billion every year that could actually go into the services that Australians want and need. We could be paying down debt. We could be setting up a sovereign wealth fund. Like that that is clearly in the national interest.

[00:38:46]That's fiscally responsible. That's what the vast majority of Australians want.

[00:38:51]And yet we're not seeing that happen.

[00:38:52]And so I think it actually goes to something much deeper and this broader frustration with politics and why people are getting cynical and why we're seeing this declining trust in politics and in institutions is because time and time again we're seeing decisions being made that are not in our long-term interests and are not in the interest of the Australian people are actually in the interest of vested interest. And it comes back to, you know, lobbying, um, political donations, the revolving door and Australians saying, "Hey, who who do you who are you in there to serve?"

[00:39:25]>> Yeah. Me and my family, our future as a country, what's good for my community?

[00:39:31]>> All these multinational gas companies that are making record profits while we get absolutely slugged for our own gas and have the RBA putting up interest rates. So, you know, we've already missed out on so much. We've gone through some of the numbers of how much gas has been exported royalty-free, but from today, we could actually get a fairer return. And that's the opportunity here. We can absolutely uh turn this around. And it's a one of those rare um examples in politics where there's a problem, there's a very clear solution, and there's such overwhelming public support for that solution. the thing we need is political will, some political courage. It's it's not really even courage, is it? When you have 70% of Australians saying just get on with it and and do it. Yeah. It's just actually doing what is in the best interest of Australians. So something I've I'm going to continue pushing this.

[00:40:26]Like this is really important. Um and you know, absolutely do everything I can to get a result on this.

[00:40:32]>> Keep that pressure up. Like Dave said, uh there's the website thereg.com.au.

[00:40:37]Go in. Our team's built this super easy tool where you can just in a few clicks email your local MP, tell them that you want them to do something on this.

[00:40:46]There's a bunch of other ways that you can um help out through the website, but keep the pressure up.

[00:40:51]>> Well, big thanks to Lincoln and the rest of my team for all the work they've put in this episode. Thanks again to everyone who sent in uh questions.

[00:41:00]Wherever you're listening or seeing this, you can like and subscribe to make sure that you get anything else that we put out. Thanks Lonzale Street Studio uh for the use of their studio and their support with this.