The Business of Care: Care Is Not Soft. It Is Infrastructure. | Taryn Bird

Added: 2026-05-25

[00:00:05]Welcome to Mindful Mondays, your weekly dose of mental health conversations, mental fitness, storytelling, and conscious leadership. And today is no different. I'm joined by someone whose work sits at the intersection of business care, and what it really means to build with intention. Taran Bird has spent over a decade shaping what social impact can look like inside a global brand, not as an add-on, but as infrastructure. at Kate Spade New York.

[00:00:30]She has helped lead work that centers women's mental health, dignity, long-term economic empowerment, not as soft issues, but as a core to how business performs and evolves. And I think what excites me most about this conversation is she really pushes us to rethink something fundamental. What happens when care is not separate from business, but the very thing that drives it? Taran, thank you so much for joining us here today.

[00:00:55]>> Thank you for having me. That was a beautiful introduction. Thank you. No, honestly, I I saw you speak a few months ago.

[00:01:03]>> Mhm.

[00:01:03]>> And when I heard you speak, it got me thinking about how care, purpose, and leading with impact should not be on the sidelines of businesses, but what happens if it's actually embedded in the business model.

[00:01:17]So, everything that I said was literally based on just hearing you speak and um hearing how you lead. Um, so, thank you so much for coming on here to talk about that.

[00:01:27]>> Thank you. That's a really beautiful reflection. I really appreciate that.

[00:01:31]Well, thank you. Um, how are you today?

[00:01:34]>> I knew you were going to ask me this cuz I was listening to one of your episodes this morning and I love that question.

[00:01:43]>> You know, I think we're very conditioned in our culture just to rush through it like super super quick and then a lot of times the person who's on the other side isn't ready to actually hear the response, you know? So, um, how am I today? I'm like grounding back into New York. I was in LA last week for conference, for social impact conference, >> but I'm also my cup is so filled. I bookended this work trip with two New York friends who now have moved to the West Coast. One was my neighbor on the Upper West Side, Pat. He's turning 80 this year, and I got to spend time with him before I went to this conference.

[00:02:24]And then my best friend since third grade um lives in San Francisco. So then I got to spend time with her on like the back end of the conference, like the two weekends.

[00:02:33]>> And so my cup just feels so full. Like that connection in time >> is something that just makes me feel so good. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm really glad to be here with you today. And I'm feeling like my cup's like overflowing.

[00:02:52]You know, you know, I really love that.

[00:02:54]And to your point, I've always been that person who always feels like when we ask people how they are, >> we must always be ready to receive it because like to your point, we are conditioned to rush past it.

[00:03:04]>> But I also love how >> you went on a work trip, but you still found time and planned around making sure that you spend time with these two people.

[00:03:14]>> Cuz I I think a lot of the times um I was speaking to a friend of mine a few years ago. He had just had a baby and he travels a lot for work.

[00:03:21]>> Okay.

[00:03:22]>> And he was like, "Oh my gosh, um um I won't be able to see her. I feel like I always have to like pick one or the other." And then I said to him, you know, you can video call her, right?

[00:03:31]Like make sure that at the same time every single night, whatever time zone you're in, she knows to expect the call from you. And the same way you would do it at home is ex is the same way that you would do it um when you're traveling as well.

[00:03:43]>> And he's been doing that for a few years. and he realized basically what you just said that if we find ways of making sure that we have connections where possible, it's not always possible, but where possible and connect with the people that we truly care about um even on a work trip, just taking two extra days, you know, just to spend time with your with your best friend >> um makes the biggest difference. So, I'm glad to know that.

[00:04:06]>> And I'll say I wasn't always particularly good at that. like that was that's a learned skill like over time.

[00:04:13]>> Um because I can find travel to be really it can be deeply deeply filling and fulfilling but you do have to bring a level of intentionality to it to say like how am I filling my cup while >> I'm doing this because the >> the process of travel I think can be like really depleting in a lot of ways.

[00:04:32]>> Yeah.

[00:04:33]>> Um but yeah, I'm feeling really good and glad to be here.

[00:04:36]>> How did you find that balance if you don't mind me asking? cuz I think that's the toughest part >> doing it wrong for a very long time.

[00:04:42]>> Yeah, I mean I think um gosh I definitely had a tendency to always be rushing. Mhm.

[00:04:58]>> Um, and I I do still like I have to actually train my brain to slow down and ask myself the question like what is going to serve me while I'm either serving others or doing for others.

[00:05:12]>> And I think that is something that I just turned 40 last year.

[00:05:17]>> Oh >> yeah. August 1st. Leo baby. And um I've really been trying to bring that level of intentionality to what I do and and bringing myself to that, right? Like I know that when I spend time with my best friend, I show up stronger, fuller, more authentically in all parts of my life, including my work life, you know, like being seen at that level and like having someone in your life that knows you and knows knows you in all your parts.

[00:05:48]um it just it fills your cup in ways that like a lot of other interactions and even other like mental health modalities can't for me.

[00:05:57]>> So that type of connection is just so incredibly important. So I just I just really started to learn that about myself. I'd say like in my late 30s that was something because I was I was rushing so much when I was traveling and then I didn't always feel like I was showing up as like my my strongest self.

[00:06:12]Yeah. So probably by not doing it in a way that was of the best service to me for a very long time.

[00:06:19]>> And and honestly a lot of people that work in the in the social impact space specifically in the mental health space well let me speak for myself not for everyone okay >> we we tend to know how to be of service to other people really well but not to ourselves. So getting to recognize what is the thing that makes me fill my cup because that whole saying of you can't fill from an empty cup is so real but it takes a long time to actually start living it and understanding it. Like you can have all the how-tos in the world and still not implement them. Um >> but I I I I like I like understanding what it is that fills your cup because it doesn't have to be a one-size fit all for everyone. And that's honestly what we always talk about on this podcast.

[00:07:04]But >> before we get to the work itself, I want to understand a bit more about you.

[00:07:10]>> Okay.

[00:07:11]>> What drew you cuz you sound like a very intentional person, purposeful person.

[00:07:16]What drew you to the intersection of business and purpose?

[00:07:21]>> Oh, well, I I knew I always wanted to be in service. Like that was something that particularly my mom instilled in me in like a really really young age. I talked about this actually at the event where we met each other that like I was a student council girl like through and through, you know, like I loved being in student council from like really really young ages. I think I like ran for my first student council position in like fifth grade, you know, like and that carried all the way through like into high school and then into college. And you know, I thought in order for me to go into service that I had to go into the foreign service.

[00:08:04]>> So, actually, right out of college, I moved to DC. Um, I applied to go to Georgetown University. I wanted to get my masters in foreign service. And, um, I actually didn't end up getting in. Um, and it was this redirect. It was one of those it was it was so disappointing at the time, but it was such looking back I think it was like such a important redirect um >> in my life. And I had the opportunity to work then at the US Chamber of Commerce at um a very entry- level job that was that was kind of really perfect for me at the time. Um it was in the Latin American Trade Division, so like I thought I still kind of wanted to go that that route. I was an economics and Spanish major.

[00:08:49]And then um that was kind of like a short-term that was like a short-term gig that I had. And when that ended um a role on the foundation team opened up and so I was able to get a really kind of 30,000 foot view of how US-based companies were investing in corporate social responsibility initiatives. I think back then we were using the terminology CSR. I think that's a that's a little less common now. Um but I was really able to get a 30,000 foot view of how companies were investing in communities where they were operating and their employees lived. Um but honestly it was a trip to South Africa that changed the game for me.

[00:09:28]>> Really >> totally changed the game for me. I had the opportunity this was probably like five or six years in. I had you know um taken on more responsibility. I started the global corporate citizenship program at the US Chamber of Commerce Foundation and then we really started to focus in women because a lot of companies were starting to make supply chain investments >> um in women and so um I had the opportunity to actually travel to Nairobi to Kenya.

[00:09:52]>> My boss at the time wasn't able to make the trip so he called me up no joke on like a Friday and was like can you go on Monday and I said absolutely yes.

[00:10:01]So I went on this delegation trip and then while I was there um one of our members at the time was Tupperware and uh a woman named Yolanda who at the time was running their corporate social responsibility she was based in Miami she was like if you get the chance to go to Johannesburg I want you to go to our temporaryware distribution center and I said all right I'm going like sounds good and we had a couple other companies that had um corporate citizenship investments actually in Johannesburg and I went with the Boys and Girls Club >> in Tupperware and got to actually visit their facility and I walked into that facility and it was it was electric.

[00:10:43]There were women everywhere that were learning about Tupperware product. Um they were learning about selling that product in their communities like hosting um events and getting education and financial literacy. Um there was a drum circle I remember that was practicing that was a part of the Tupperware community there and I just remember leaving being like this this is this is where like I want to dedicate like my career. This is this is what I want to be a part of. Um so yeah it was that experience that like really solidified that I would like to be at the intersection of like impact in business. Um yeah that was it. I'm smiling because I grew up in that environment where women you know would sell tupperware you know and having really yeah like it was it was a thing and tap away was like any South African will tell you that having tapaway in your home your mom would protect that with her life it's part of South African culture to the core and the women who'd sell Tupperware it was it was part of my upbringing so hearing you say this I'm like wait what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:50]>> And and it was like that thing where um I've always said that women are the backbone of society.

[00:11:56]>> So when they like when they didn't have traditional jobs or they wanted to make an extra income, >> Tupperware became that you know they would actually so that you see women getting training that was because those women probably that wasn't their only job like they would use that to make an extra income but then to actually get Tupperware to afford Tupperware was like a big thing in South Africa. It meant like you had made it, you know, and the mothers would make sure that they only take them out on like special days and if you take someone's Tupperware, you better bring it back because it's such a special it's such a special thing. So, I haven't even gotten to like the back end of Tupperware. So, I'm just like hearing you saying training and all I can see are like these memories flash by of like the green Tupperware we have at home still. Yes. Um, so a lot of families like they'll tell you bring back my Tupperware. And every I'm telling you now, every South African child knows not to mess with their mom's Tupperware.

[00:12:51]So, so I'm like listening to you say like, "Oh, she just threw me off with that Tupperware comment." Um, but that's that's honestly so incredible to see that. But, and not even but, but, but I think it also just shows um how women can come together to build something so beautiful. You saw the back end and lived through the back end. I saw the front end which is you know like these mothers are going out having conversations and somehow you know the other friend that she has is now buying tip away from the friend that she just had a conversation with cuz it wasn't just like a cold selling. No, you had to sit with that person have cookies with them have tea with them and by the end of it maybe they'll buy two or three of your Tupperware. But what was it in that moment that's that made you say this is what I want to do? What what was it about? I don't know if it's the energy um or was it how they did business? Was it how intentionally they trained the women? Was it how the women received it?

[00:13:47]What was it about that moment that showed you the intersection between like purpose and business? Cuz I mean, it's one thing to look at it, but there must have been like that thing. You know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

[00:14:01]>> Um we're known as the the steel city, and I'm a really proud Pittsburger. I'm a really really proud Pittsburgger. But just as our industry is known for steel, which is like very hard, >> you know, and the culture, like our culture is one that like you meet people from Pittsburgh and those are some of the hardest working people you're going to meet because we have grit. We have tenacity. Like we're we're really really hard workers.

[00:14:25]What I saw in that facility that day was the combination of hard work but expression >> and the physical expression of empowerment was something that I had never really been able to be in the community of or witness and I talked about this a little bit at the FIT event that we met at but you know all the time people are asking me about like indicators you know and we have indicators we have reached targets but I think it's so clear when you're in either like a work environment or an impact project or both where women or the people that are being served are in empowerment because it's physical because it's incredibly sematic. It's somebody that's sitting with their shoulders up like this versus sitting down like this. It's somebody that's speaking from their belly, not speaking from their throat. It's somebody who's looking you at the eye, not looking down like this.

[00:15:12]>> There was so much physical empowerment in that room. And um or it was in that warehouse. I mean, there were thousands of women in there. Like it was it was magnificent. And um so I think it was kind of the the my first experience of being in community with other women where I felt it, you know, like I really really felt empowerment.

[00:15:36]>> Um >> I'm also an athlete so like I grew up in sports. So that's not to say that I haven't experienced team and I haven't experienced um you know uh celebration and I haven't experienced joy. Of course I have. You know I played soccer my whole life. But there was something different about being in that facility that day and being in the fullest expression of empowerment. It was it was um I mean it completely it completely opened my world.

[00:16:07]>> You know when you spoke about um whether a woman is sitting like this or like that >> for those listening I'm so sorry like sitting up or um hunching down or looking up or looking down. A lot of people do not look at metrics like that because empowerment is what we see on paper. So even when I was listening to you on that day, I was like, I've actually never thought about it like that. You know, like you just think that as long as we've checked the the the the box of the fact that we have empowered women through a job or maybe we have given them some education, that should be enough, right?

[00:16:44]>> But I liked >> reading the body language of the women.

[00:16:49]Do they feel empowered? Not we have empowered them. Do they feel empowered?

[00:16:53]And I think that metric is or even that data is often m missed. And I I always speak about nuance, you know, like beyond the numbers, what else can we see to make sure that we've actually done the work. So one of the conversations that I was like um um I speak I always speak to myself, but um I had a conversation with myself. So do I.

[00:17:15]I always have conversations with myself.

[00:17:17]I now call them solo episodes on on mic day. So >> your solo episodes are fantastic.

[00:17:22]>> Those are the conversations that I'd have by myself all the time. I now just use a mic to have them. So >> we're all very lucky cuz they're they're they're beautiful and they're very very um they're like palpable. Like you can you can feel your emotion and like your intentionality behind them.

[00:17:36]>> Thank you. cuz I >> like the latest latest episode that I did was around um um it was a few weeks ago but it's it's about the humility trap and I think it speaks to something that you're speaking about now you know how empowerment >> can also be seen through how women present themselves not present themselves but show up as themselves. um where a lot of the times when we mentor when we invest in women we really invest in their confidence to know that they belong to know that the seat they occupy is theirs and that they don't always have to survive because I think when I think about mental health is >> women have been taught to survive which is why the stats are like really alarming where um a lot of women are at risk of autoimmune disease because of all the stress that they carry um they really have space to take care of their mental health because they're carrying societal needs on their shoulders. How it's been framed is resilience, which I don't I really don't like that word because I agree with you on that.

[00:18:36]>> Like it's it's you we call it resilience, but I think it's a failure of the system to actually create space for women to show up as themselves as soft as they need to, as hard as they need to. Um and and when when you spoke about the body language, I started thinking about how like my mom my mom is incredible. She's the strongest woman I know, but sometimes she hunches down.

[00:18:57]You know, her voice gets softer in certain rooms. And then even though I've gone to really great schools and I' feel really empowered, there's times where I saw that a lot growing up, you know, like the making yourself small without actually >> noticing that you're making yourself small. And the moment I started realizing a lot a lot more I could have the conversations with myself because I now recognize the fact that empowerment is not just what is said or the degrees or you know the the rooms we find ourselves in. It's being validated by someone seeing you as human first and not necessarily like what you've achieved or where you work. And it's the recognition of the fact that I can both be vulnerable and still show up in a room and be incredible, you know, and the solo episodes, I guess sometimes it's it's a lot of vulnerability, but I still worry that, oh, maybe I'm being too vulnerable. I need to show everyone that like, you know, I'm a boss and I can, you know, rule with an iron fist should I ever want to be president one day. But what I realized is a lot of the times we've had to perform as women >> and we've really been given the space to show up as ourselves. And that's why that's why I was saying beyond the data that nuance of knowing that once you leave in your capacity and the work that you're doing with case paid, do those women still feel the same when that specific person is gone? Are the systems changed enough when you guys actually leave the room? If you had to say, >> "We're leaving Rwanda right now. We're leaving like all the different locations that we work at, the people that you've left behind, are they empowered enough to still feel like they can succeed without you?"

[00:20:38]>> That is a very good question.

[00:20:40]>> Yeah. And before I answer it, can I just can I ride one wave that you brought up?

[00:20:45]>> Because that piece about the need to feel small.

[00:20:51]>> I do think a lot of women and girls, that's a that's a survival strategy.

[00:20:56]That's a coping mechanism that women are women are twice as likely to experience a traumatic event in their life. 50% higher rates of anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder in comparison to our male counterparts. And that's women and girls. And so I think that that small um that that need to feel small or that like immediate like oh I need to feel small so I'm not seen >> is actually your body and your mind doing something that kept you safe.

[00:21:24]>> And so I I just want to acknowledge that because I think a lot of times that we think those things are bad and we we say that they're bad.

[00:21:30]>> Yeah.

[00:21:31]>> But in fact your body and your mind they were just doing something to protect you, you know. And so as we go on each of our healing journeys, as we go on each of our empowerment journeys, I think like that's something that's really important for us not to place shame on that >> because there was so much protection and so much, you know, quite frankly just our bodies being so smart >> on how to protect us. So, you know that like taking up space, I think we hear that so much in the women and girls space, the importance of taking up space. And that can be something that is really, really hard to do both like physically, energetically. I mean, on the physical front, you're being fed the opposite information about what we should look like, >> especially in Western culture.

[00:22:14]>> Um, but on the emotional front, that's a that's probably one of the I think >> biggest indicators of empowerment. am I taking up space in the relationship where I didn't before? You know, and that's not something that we're probably going to put on a KPI sheet, but that's something that you will feel and you will know is starting to happen.

[00:22:32]>> Um, and so, you know, I think that that's that's one part of the empowerment conversation that like when you show up in one part of your life, whether you know, you're you're growing your space at work or you're growing up the space that you're taking up um inside of a certain relationship, that's going to spill over into other areas of your life. So that ripple effect I think is something too particularly in the women and girls space that you tend to see you know I wouldn't say immediately but but but it tends to flow afterwards.

[00:23:02]>> Um and so >> that's something that I hope like when you ask the question about like you know will that impact still be there and specifically about the work that we've been doing in Rwanda the last 13 years.

[00:23:14]Um, you know, we Kate Spade New York, we're a we're a fashion brand. You know, we're I I lead our social impact work. We're we're known for our handbags. You probably know us for our handbags. We were founded in 1993 by a female entrepreneur and three of her friends.

[00:23:30]And um, you know, our handbags really mean something to women and that's something I'm incredibly proud of. Um, I've been at this brand 13 years myself.

[00:23:42]I'm a really really proud Kate Spade New Yorker.

[00:23:44]>> I know.

[00:23:45]>> And that's like something that um you know, I feel very fortunate because you can work in fashion and you can bop around and and this has been a really um amazing brand to be a part of and to be a part of the legacy that that Kate set in 1993.

[00:24:01]And so when we became a so we became a social impact investor and client to a Rwandaled manufacturing facility, Abbeesi, Rwanda, >> uh we were their first investor. Uh we were their first client. And so um our goal with this really special partnership was to set up a manufacturing facility that would then would empower women and invest in the community that they called home for the long term. Meaning when you go to that facility, you're not going to see our logo anywhere. This is a Rwanda owned, Rwandaled, women le manufacturing facility. Um, you know, you're also going to see you're going to see product. You're going to see um spaces for an early childhood development center. You're going to see a lot of greenery. You're going to see a lot of art. You're going to see a lot of beauty. And all of that was incredibly intentional from from from the get-go.

[00:24:57]So I say that because we built for the long term and we built in mind keeping in mind what our role as Kate Spade New York was which was investor and client. We are not owner.

[00:25:10]>> And so um those initial infrastructure there's the physical infrastructure component of it but then there's the people infrastructure component of it.

[00:25:17]>> And so I'm really proud to say that actually the current acting managing director of that facility was about the second or third hire at the business 13 years ago. there's been a lot of upward mobility within the um team itself and so you know that that infrastructure I think a lot of times we think of infrastructure as physical things but the people component and that's a lot where like our work in social impact comes forward is so incredibly important um and so my hope that the answer to your question is yes you know that that that the the uh the technical infrastructure the vocational infrastructure that was invested in at that facility remains for the long term.

[00:25:57]I have a I have like a 100% confidence that actually that is true. I really do.

[00:26:02]Um there's over 250 women that work at that facility >> and many of them have been working at that facility for the last 13 years.

[00:26:10]>> And so um that's something that I take a lot of pride in. I know that we at Kids made New York take a lot of pride in. We've made over 300,000 handbags there over the last 13 years that have sold in our stores globally. Um, on every single handbag, there's a there's a hang tag that says, "I made this for you." And somebody from the facility, from the manufacturing facility, is actually signing it. So, there's a level of um connection, of emotionality. There's a made in Rwanda tag right on the front of that handbag. We're incredibly proud of that. So yes, I mean my answer to that is like I really hope that the investment that we've made there is not just one that you know is a short-term investment but actually continues to fuel the lives of the women that work there and positively benefit that community. Um I mean we're seeing that take shape now but but I do think it it has the foundational legs to continue well beyond like our initial investment.

[00:27:05]How how did you cuz that that is incredible work and I mean like most of the products that I've even seen from you that were made there I didn't even know that that that was a thing that you know Kate Spade actually manufactured some of its product in Rwanda. Um, and I'd like to hear more about that partnership because how does how did you manage to be so human centered or people centered or as case as Kate Spade as you went into that specific context to understand >> the women but also ensure that they show up as their best selves to, you know, to know that they're part of something bigger than themselves. um but also still feel like they're an integral part of the work that they do.

[00:27:53]You know, I um I think one of the most important pieces about So, let me back up. So, before I came to Cape, uh I had the opportunity to actually live in Rwanda.

[00:28:07]>> So, I was there for about 3 months. Um, I took a sbatical for my job at the US Chamber of Commerce and I wanted to get more field experience in terms of doing women's empowerment work like in the field and I wanted to work in retail. I knew I wanted to work in retail and I ended up getting a fellowship with an organization called Indigo Africa that also makes absolutely beautiful product in Rwanda. Um, and funny enough actually I missed my bus one morning and I accidentally met the CEO of Kate Spade.

[00:28:37]>> Oh. And that's how I got my job.

[00:28:40]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's like actually how I that's how I got my job. I uh I ended up spending the day with uh my my soon-to-be boss, her name was Sydney Price, >> and unbeknownst to me, the current CEO of the company. And >> this is all in Rwanda.

[00:28:57]>> This is all in Rwanda. Yeah. And it's because I missed my bus one morning and I missed kind of the where I was supposed to go. And then my boss called me. is like, "Hey, these Kate Spade people are here and they're thinking about doing something really interesting. Uh, would you be able to take them around to some of the women's cooperatives that that we're working with?" And I said, "Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:14]That sounds great." And so I ended up spending the day with them. And um it was I mean truly a day that like changed my life. Um and about six months after that they decided instead of outsourcing components of of what they were going to um from a partnership perspective to build a team in house and I got an email from them that said like do you know anyone that might be interested and I wrote back m period e period. That was it. I don't even think I touched my resume, you know, and and I knew I was like I I remember that interview and I sat on this like green velvet couch, the most colorful room I had ever been in as a professional. Remember I was coming from like quasi government a job where I wore like a black suit every day >> and I walk into this office and there's just color everywhere. Like what you think the Kate Spade office looks like it does, you know? It's just full of color. And um and so I'm sitting on this couch and I remember I had a pair of pants that I made at Kakoki, which was one of the cooperatives that I worked with that we that I I still um try to visit whenever I'm in Rwanda. And they made me a pair of pants.

[00:30:24]>> And I was like, I'm going to wear those pants. So I wore the pants to the interview. And I remember saying to my boss, "Look, I'm probably not the most qualified candidate. Like I have no in-house fashion experience, but I will not fail.

[00:30:36]>> This will not fail.

[00:30:37]>> I'm from Pittsburgh. I'm from Pittsburgh and I was just so incredibly excited about what this brand was about to embark on and I knew I just wanted to be a part of it. And so when I when they hired me, they had said, you know, this is going to be hands-on, you know, like this is, you know, and we're we're really looking to something to do something unique and innovative in the fashion space that's using our supply chain to empower women. And when they said hands-on, I thought like, okay, you're a fashion brand, like how hands-on, you know?

[00:31:09]>> And um we've spent a lot of time in Rwanda. And I say this with my team, not just, you know, like Abbezy and our partnership there is one of um about 26 social impact partners that we have globally. It is incredibly important for us to spend time in the spaces um where we are making investments in women to understand the cultural nuance to understand the realities that that leadership team is facing to understand the realities of the what women who are are either going to work or coming to a specific program are facing and kind of pulling back to that Tupperware experience. You can read all you want about it in like a report that you're going to get and you're going to get that as a funer. you know, you're going to get your quarterly reports, you're going to get your bannual reports, you're going to get your annual reports.

[00:31:55]Nothing replaces time spent in community. Full stop.

[00:32:00]>> Yeah.

[00:32:01]>> And so I think like that has been something that we really try to and I really try to make sure that we're spending time. And so I spent a lot of time in Rwanda the first 5 years of of that partnership. Um, a lot of time. And I spent a lot of time with the leadership team. I spent a lot of time at the factory. I spent a lot of time in that community.

[00:32:23]>> Um, and as a I think it's really important as a expat to do that, to earn trust, >> you know, unfortunately there's been a lot of companies that have come in particularly to that part of world, made a commitment, made a donation, and then they're out.

[00:32:38]>> Yeah.

[00:32:38]>> You know, so like, so you have to know that going in and then be really intentional about consistency, being really intentional about time. like understand what is of value. Um because it might be different than what's of value to to me. You know, I'm a New Yorker. Like something that I had to learn like pretty early on too was like, >> you know, like in New York time is like you're you know, like like the the time component of of I feel like if I were to say in New York I feel like we sprint.

[00:33:08]>> Yeah.

[00:33:09]>> My experience of working in East Africa has been that it's a marathon. They're two completely different types of work days and you have to then make sure you have the right types of shoes on and the right head space in order to do it because if you try to do one in one or the other it doesn't work.

[00:33:23]>> And so for me that's something that I had to recognize but also adjust to >> in a way that made our partnership and our collaboration like a lot more equitable in a lot of ways. And so that's something that was really important to me too was like making sure that you know we had a level of equity on both sides of the equation.

[00:33:48]>> Um and you really have to work at that.

[00:33:50]That's not something that you can just say.

[00:33:52]>> Yeah.

[00:33:53]>> You know, but I think the time piece is the most important.

[00:33:56]>> I really I mean it's my love language as a human. So I will say that clearly I love quality time.

[00:34:02]>> But I actually think in business it's actually incredibly important too. you know, you're you're you're you're really trusting someone on the other side. Um, and time together really helps you get to know each other, but also understand nuances of what each of you are bringing to the table.

[00:34:18]>> Yeah.

[00:34:19]>> And I and I love that you touch on one the fact that it was an investment um and you're a client and an investor and also give them the agency and you know, like also put power in their hands to know that they're building something that's also theirs. That is so important because as you rightfully said there's a lot of business on the African continent but I think what the west or not even just the west but what most companies almost corporations going into Africa to do business get wrong is there's always been that aid model that is embedded where it's not a place to invest in it's a place to donate and it's a it's a place to give aid but there is a business component to it like if you read the stats Africa is the hub of business in the future I mean by 20 I think it's by 2050 the Africa will have the youngest population in the entire world.

[00:35:10]>> Totally.

[00:35:10]>> Um and the one key component that they've like a lot of companies have gotten wrong and this is from um >> even the companies that are trying to do good like you know the philanthropic companies is that they don't invest time in the places that they are even donating to. you know, let's even forget the business for a second, but even if you're donating, you actually don't spend time to understand what it is that you're donating to.

[00:35:34]>> Um, and when you do business, it it's really important to go and understand the context. You spoke about East Africa. I don't know if you've been to Tanzania. Like the thing is poly poly just relax.

[00:35:45]>> That's that's how they want to do things. But when you're in New York, if someone is walking slow >> Yeah, totally.

[00:35:52]There's times when someone's walking at normal speed, but I don't know what normal speed is anymore. I'm like, why are you walking so slow?

[00:35:58]>> Totally.

[00:35:59]>> And I've only been here for two years, but it's become such a pet peeve when someone does that. But when you go back home, that is completely normal, you know, like it's completely normal to do that. And understanding that context is so important. Understanding how to speak to these people is so important because the language of New York is completely different to the language in East Africa. Totally. Yes, the business objectives may be the same, but how you get there is going to be different. Um, so I really liked how you how you how you touched on that. And >> also, I'm also seeing um like a thread of finding your place at the finding yourself at the right place at the right time. Totally.

[00:36:40]>> Um because when you were speaking about GW and not getting in and how you ended up at uh the US Chambers of Commerce.

[00:36:48]Yeah, US Chamber of Commerce. Yeah, such a long thing. But from there to randomly missing a bus, like >> meeting the CEO of Kate Spade to now doing the work that you're doing that impacts women in a way where you are being of service just in a different way to what you expected yourself to, but in a way that also shows so much of your light and how you show up in the world.

[00:37:11]It then then gets me thinking around how would you present present service now as a business model to >> a lot of businesses because I think like you said the CSR thing was more of a do good you know we've got extra cash let's just give it to a good cause or good organization >> but I think as the world is evolving now things like mental health have to be embedded in the business model because I think the stats are like 1.2 2 billion dollars are lost yearly due to poor employee mental health. So they miss about 12 days um I think they miss about 12 days annually because of mental health issues but no one really wants to speak about it because there's that stigma of if you speak about it or if you show up in that way with that vulnerability >> right >> then it also looks bad on you specifically for women because we already trying to break into the space >> but from what I'm hearing from you and the work that you've managed to do for the last 13 years at Kate Spade and successfully so >> is that there is a case to be made about embedding impact and um taking care or being human- centered rather um in your business model. What case would you make for service as part of your business model to different businesses out there and not just in fashion because I think it can be embedded across the board. You know, the one word that comes to mind when you ask me that question is authenticity.

[00:38:40]>> And I think it's incredibly important to remain authentic in whatever social impact, cause, sustainability, whatever whatever you call it, you know, whatever whatever that terminology and vocabulary it is, >> that it's incredibly authentic to who you are as a brand.

[00:39:04]and you're consistent.

[00:39:07]You know, when I think about starting that work at Abbeiz Rwanda 13 years ago, because I was spending so much time with my Rwanda colleagues, it became very very evident that if we didn't start addressing dissociation within the workforce >> that we were going to be very very challenged in order to to make handbags and to see women that worked at this facility see year-over-year improvements in empowerment.

[00:39:37]What was happening a lot was is that people were physically there but they were mentally somewhere else.

[00:39:43]>> And I'm sharing this story because this goes back to authenticity and kind of how we arrived at our focus in the women's mental health space.

[00:39:51]But essentially after about a year me and my Rwanda colleagues said you know we have to do something different like this isn't working. And so we went back to the drawing table. We were using a concept actually called human- centered design, which if you're watching this and you're curious about different ways you can go about asking questions versus making assumptions, >> the human- centered design approach has a really really great toolkit to be able to do that and that's what we used. Um, and so we kind of scrapped a more traditional women's economic empowerment program where we were prioritizing access to financial literacy, financial um, uh, to to capital. That that all still exists, but we were we were deciding to then prioritize actually psychoeducation programs on post-traumatic stress disorder, >> yoga for trauma, and we brought in a counselor that was full-time at the factory. Now, that took a long time before a lot of the workforce started to use that.

[00:40:49]>> But what we started to do was start to create more psychological safety within the workforce.

[00:40:55]And it wasn't until 2017 when, believe it or not, we had two professors from Georgetown who were studying our work. No joke.

[00:41:06]>> Ed and Kathy. And Dr. Kathy Tinsley, she's a leadership professor at um Georgetown Mcdana School of Business.

[00:41:13]and she was the first person that reflected back to us that we were doing something unique and different by integrating access to culturally competent mental health resources into a very traditional women's empowerment program.

[00:41:27]>> They wrote a report on it. It came out in 2017. I remember there was a woman from Henrietta Cobb. She was the uh she was at the International Finance Corporation. She actually stood up at this event at Georgetown and said, "You all are doing something really different and we need to be talking and investing more in women's mental health when we talk about gender equality."

[00:41:50]>> And I remember me and my boss at the time, Sydney, we were like, "Huh, this is really interesting." Like, we are doing something we are doing something unique and different. Um, and then in 2018, we lost our founder, Kate Rosnne Henspade, to death by suicide and made a million-doll commitment to support mental health initiatives in the United States.

[00:42:10]>> And from that point onwards, you know, we really started to look at how the work that we were doing in Rwanda was about was was really starting to inform the unique space that we could occupy in the women's empowerment community. And so we partnered with an organization called Prosper Global.

[00:42:31]>> They're a UK-based mental health consulting firm. They're absolutely fabulous. And we put out our first piece of research in 2023 um that really codified a what we call um a theory of change uh and identified eight specific ways how to cultivate good mental health for women and girls and how that leads to authentic access to voice, choice, and power. M >> so we were building you know on the work that we had done in Rwanda that that we started to do with Abihey and then started to establish more partnerships specifically in the women's empowerment space in the United States and some of our other key markets where we were partnering with organizations that were doing vocational training that were already doing leadership training that were providing women access to capital and we were coming in and then funding the mental health support that sat alongside it. So, it wasn't this like standalone program that sat over here, which if you're talking about one of the the biggest challenges I think with mental health is that people see it separate from your daily life. Yeah.

[00:43:26]>> Oh, I'm going to go deal with my mental health and I'm going to go deal with it over here.

[00:43:29]>> When really your mental health is coming with you in every single part of your life. So, that integration component was something that uh we thought was particularly unique, but we were also seeing work. And so, um we released this piece of research. We come forward with a theory of change. It's called the flower framework. Um, and we did that intentionally because when you look at the flower framework, and maybe we can link to it so people can see it, but essentially the eight specific ways to cultivate good mental health for women and girls are the roots. Those are the very pieces of that organism and that flower that you don't see.

[00:44:02]>> But when you're going through a very difficult time, when you're going through a drought, when there's a lot of sun, you know, we all go through different seasons of life, >> those are going to be the pieces that actually anchor you and enable you to be able to bloom again whenever the environment is right.

[00:44:16]And so that's really been, you know, we have this story and we had a long journey. Um, and so the reason I come back to authenticity is because, you know, sometimes especially companies can try to be all things to all people on societal issues.

[00:44:33]>> And it's okay to stay in your zone of genius. Like it's okay to like stay committed to that. you know, when everybody else might be going over here, you're staying committed to, you know, what you uniquely can contribute to the world and is aligned with your brand purpose. And for us, that's all about sparking joy. And joy is just not about the things that are on the outside. Joy is about what you are cultivating on the inside. I know you know that so well.

[00:44:54]So, I think like that's something that's just like so incredibly important is authenticity. Uh, you know, we're at a really unique unique place now in our journey where two years ago we said, "Okay, we can keep going at this on our own and we can keep investing philanthropic dollars in women and girls mental health or we can create something new and new and unique that helps to catalyze investment." And we chose to do that. So, in 2024, we launched the global fund for women's mental health.

[00:45:22]It's a uh catalytic fund that other like-minded companies, companies like uh Pinterest, like Lululemon, like Adion, uh Saks Fifth Avenue, can make investments in this fund um alongside our customer. So when you shop at a North America store, both in our specialty and our outlet business, our customer can make a$15 or $10 donation to the global fund for women's mental health. And all of those dollars then are going to organizations that are aligned to that researchbacked approach and serving to reach 250,000 women and girls with access to mental health resources by 2030. So we've had this like I know that was a really long answer to your question but it's been a long journey but we've stayed authentic and stayed true to I think an area that we feel that our brand can really make a a unique and positive difference in the world.

[00:46:13]It was a long answer but a good one in many ways cuz I was like I'm learning so much from it because what what I I see is you wouldn't have noticed the disassociation of the women if you just looked at the numbers. That's the first thing that I'm getting. M >> you had to actually be there the time that you spoke about to actually understand them to um see them first before just the people who are making your products because you you can't see that on a spreadsheet you know like if they're making the bags they're making the bags but to notice that dis disassociation is a key part of being human- centered that means you're actually spending time with the people that are making you know your products and it actually takes me back to I like case studies so I was reading I I think it was it was either ego is the enemy or the psychology of money. One of those.

[00:47:05]But what it what it spoke about was how there's a difference. It was ego is the enemy. But there was like a different there's different types of CEOs. The CEOs that just give instructions but don't necessarily understand the different parts of their business who is making this you know like they don't visit their factories and actually see the people who are creating you know the products that they they they >> um that they sell. And then there's another type of CEO who goes to the factory, you know, actually greets the people, uh, tries to know as many names as possible because that creates a sense of psychological safety. And the way most businesses um, thrive and organizations really is if psychological safety is created for them to actually come to you and say, "Taran, there's something that's not working without actually feeling a sense of if I say this, what if I get fired? I notice something off happening here and there, but what if I say this and then I get fired?" M >> and I think a lot of abuses within the work space specifically of people but more specifically women is because there's a sense of >> there's a lack of psychological safety that is created that does not allow them to actually say what it is that they're feeling or even say what it is that is going on in their own homes cuz you may not actually know that. You said something interesting earlier around how when you've truly empowered someone it shows up in other parts of their lives that you may not necessarily see on a spreadsheet. Um, so as I was listening, what I'm hearing around authenticity or even the business case for service is it it takes time, but it actually takes you understanding that you can't be everything to everyone. Yes. But once you find what it is that your business cares about, you can actually pour time into understanding the different components of it to make sure that that impact is literally part of your business model in every single way. And the same way you would go to the accounting department or the legal department or the innovation department is the same way that you would make sure that the programs that you are building um for your different employees or even uh your customers, there's a thread in there that is inherently part of actually creating a sustainable impact driven business model. So long but really insightful, but the whole time I'm like, >> you may have to cut that one down. No postp production.

[00:49:17]>> I don't want to lie to you. As you were saying it, I'm like, "Oh, that's a snippet and I'm going to post the whole thing."

[00:49:22]>> It was It was my brain was like, "That's a beautiful snippet." The whole thing.

[00:49:26]>> I feel like all the time I call my co-workers are always like, "Tarren, trim it down, you know."

[00:49:31]>> No, no. I I I love it. I love it. And the other thought that >> Same with my sisters, they say the same thing.

[00:49:37]>> Really?

[00:49:38]>> No, it I watch sometimes I watch some of my my episodes back. I'm like, you didn't have to like go around and around just to ask that specific question, but context matters.

[00:49:47]>> That is totally. Well, this is long form media.

[00:49:49]>> Yeah, you're in the right spot.

[00:49:52]>> But I really I really appreciate the case that you made because again, what it boils down to is being human- centered, and being human- centered means spending time and understanding the places you're investing in as well.

[00:50:04]But one thing that also stood out to me is having um attainable metrics. you spoke about 250,000 women by 2030. A lot of >> companies have and even organizations have unrealistic expectations of how long it actually takes for impact to actually play out in a way that is sustainable in the long in the long run.

[00:50:28]>> So like most people would say 3 million by 2030. Is it possible? Yes. But then if you look at the world and where we at right now, the people you're trying to reach, it takes a long time to actually reach those kinds of goals if they are to be goals that are sustained and results that are sustained over time.

[00:50:48]>> Um, and just to close off, I just want to understand what made you guys come to that number and um, why is it so important to actually be realistic in what impact looks like for Kate Spade?

[00:51:00]>> Totally.

[00:51:02]We arrived at that number, you know, we set a target for ourselves um in gosh, that was 2020 to reach 100,000 women with access to mental health resources.

[00:51:16]>> Our biggest partner in that was an organization called the Boris Lauren Henson Foundation.

[00:51:21]>> This is Taraji P. Henson's foundation and we partnered with them to stand up something called the sheicare wellness pods >> and these are beautiful infrastructure on campuses of H.B.CU that are serving girls and expansive youth on that campus with access to integrative wellness >> and that was such a transformative partnership for us for a number of reasons. I think you know a lot of times when you hear mental health you hear mental illness.

[00:51:49]>> Yeah. You don't hear mental health, the health word at the end of it. And so, and I talked a little bit about this at the FIT event where we met, but the ways in which that you can access mental health care as any individual, but also specifically for women, it's incredibly sematic, >> you know, and there's different integrative wellness tools that you can pull into your toolkit. And I and I bring up that partnership with BHF because there was a wide variety of mental health support that was provided at the pods. And what that really exposed us as a funer um and as a a social impact investor was to expand what mental health looks like particularly for youth.

[00:52:33]>> You know, at the pods, for example, there's rest pods, you know, where you can go take a nap if you need to rest in between class. There's aroma therapy, there's African dance, there's yoga, there's, you know, there's there's just such a wide variety of care.

[00:52:48]>> And so I do think that even as a culture and a in a society, you know, we're we're expanding what it means to take care of our mental health. And I think that's a really really good thing particularly from an access perspective and a cost perspective. Mhm.

[00:53:02]>> So the but the second thing that also really drove that number was, you know, we've been doing this work for a while, but we hadn't yet really done this work at scale inside of our supply chain.

[00:53:14]>> That was something for me. I came to fashion. I'm not kidding you. Being at that Tupperware facility and seeing what supply chain could look like for a multinational brand in a community that then had women selling their product that was bettering their life.

[00:53:29]>> That was so transformative for me. And um you know when you look at the fashion industry, we overindex in women when it pertains to our customers, when it pertains to our employees, and when it pertains to our supply chain. And so one of the programs that I'm so excited about that we're partnering with an organization called RISE. They do factory empowerment work mainly in Asia is is that we're piloting and going to be bringing forward um an industry first of its kind mental health curriculum that's going to get integrated into traditional financial literacy, traditional health education, and inner partner violence and domestic violence prevention.

[00:54:05]>> So you're going to be able to learn about stress reduction. you're going to be able to learn about signs and symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder or anxiety or depression or postpartum, >> you know. And so when we set that target, we knew that we wanted to, you know, really um set an attainable goal for ourselves, but something that was very expansive. And so that supply chain work is also going to help us really expand the number of women that we're going to be able to reach with mental health resources by 2030. But you know when we also set up the fund it was very very intentional to be catalytic in the sense that we wanted other brands to join us to invest in this issue. I mean globally when you look at philanthropy 2% of philanthropy dollars go to support women and girls 2%.

[00:54:51]>> When you zero in on that 2% of what goes to women and girls mental health I don't even have a statistic for you because it's so low >> you know. So, um, that was we we we wanted to challenge ourselves not to think about just how we as Kate Spade New York are investing in this, but going back to your question on infrastructure, how are we setting up infrastructure that has a bigger impact than just the one that we can have alone?

[00:55:13]>> And I always go back to the fact that Kate founded this brand with three of her friends, >> you know, Pamela, Elise, Andy, and her.

[00:55:22]It was four friends who revolutionized the fashion industry. it wasn't one individual, >> you know. So, like that approach is something that like >> I just think we do better work when we do work together with others.

[00:55:36]>> And that is definitely something that we've taken when we think about our social impact work and how we continue to partner with other people, including our customer, that can help us really advocate for and invest in women's mental health initiatives and bring more joy into the world.

[00:55:52]>> That is the end of our episode. Oh, really?

[00:55:55]>> No, cuz I I was going to ask you another question, but you you you summed it up so beautifully around um collaboration is so important in the space because it's so dispersed and it's especially mental health specifically. But if 2% of dollars are like going only into social impact, there's like 98% that's somewhere else, right?

[00:56:19]>> 2% into women and girls.

[00:56:20]>> Women and girls more specifically. And then when you look at mental health, you can't even bring up a statistic for that because it's so low. Um, but it's important that there is collaboration in the space. And then going back again into the business of care. It is also important for businesses to be a lot more human- centered in how they conduct businesses. Then again like women and women and girls are a Kate Spade focus but whatever that focus is for the different businesses it's important that it the systems that are built um ensure that the impact is not only you know like held by them >> 100%.

[00:57:01]>> Cuz I think there's a hogging >> Y 100% >> you know it's it's a tickbox exercise but I think >> what we speaking about are human lives.

[00:57:10]Yeah, totally. Human lives that have a ripple effect where I always say that I'm a product of empowerment, you know, like it took one company giving me a bary years ago and then my life just changed. It was like a ripple effect that happened after that. But I am one person who comes from a family of so many other people where even if it's not them in New York, it's changed the way that they think and look at life. It's changed the way that we think about possibilities, changed the way that we think about hope. has changed the way that I decide to give back. So like you as you were speaking like we sound like the same person but I'd always wanted to be of service because there was just so much that was happening where we tell a young girl that education is the key to economic impactation. Once you get to school everything will be okay but no one is really doing the work around the ecosystem that she needs to exist in.

[00:58:00]This one particular girl had two brothers. She was 11 and she had to be a mom to her two brothers because, you know, her mom wasn't there. And then every time it was that time of the month, she didn't even have sanitary pads. She had to use newspapers. But we telling that same girl to go to school, get good grades, and everything will be okay without actually fixing her environment.

[00:58:20]>> Right. Right.

[00:58:21]>> And that's when I started thinking about impact differently. How we can't just focus on the end result, right?

[00:58:28]>> What are the ecosystems and the in what's the infrastructure for her to actually get there? What does the environment look like? Have we removed enough barriers? Is her mental health taken care care of? Does she have to worry about feeding her brothers? And she's like like only 11.

[00:58:41]>> So what you've spoken about in this episode is the focus on the things that your concept note, you know, your KPIs can't see. It's the time spent in actually understanding what it is that you're building. It's the time spent in knowing that you know your product may be products may be great now you know like the work that you're doing may be great now um but once you understand the people behind it that psychological safety can actually make it better because they feel safe enough to actually come to you and say this is not working you know this is not working I have this suggestion but >> if we are creating a culture we're just perpetuating the status quo there's a lot that is missed there you know and that 2% that you speak about just in women and girls that 2% % could be a lot more if we actually spend a lot more time understanding, you know, the people behind what it is that we're trying to build and the people within our organizations that are helping us build these incredible institutions. But it starts with working collaboratively and sharing ideas. You know, when what you got right at Kate Spade, someone else might get something else right that might actually help you vice versa. But I think there's a lot of competition in a space that shouldn't necessarily have competition because we're talking about human lives. And the reason I'm ending the episode is because you captured it so beautifully.

[01:00:03]>> There we go.

[01:00:04]>> Thank you.

[01:00:04]>> Okay.

[01:00:06]>> Thank you for having me.

[01:00:07]>> Thank you so much for coming on and thank you for everyone to everyone rather for listening. Um I met her at an event outside and we were both lost actually. We were we were both lost and um I just heard her speak as someone who's not only a storyteller but a story listener. This conversation could have obviously been a lot longer and I might just ask her to come back. But um the key thing about impact I think is understanding the why behind what it is that we do. Um a lot of the times I think you know we look at impact and um human- centered design even as a checkbox exercise without understanding that behind every you know sustainable development goal behind every impact report are actual human beings that are impacted by the work and the only way we can move forward and succeed is if we start working together to ensure that no one gets left behind. Um and this conversation has been exactly that. So, thank you so much for listening. Um, if you have any questions, if you'd like Taran to come back and talk about something else, if there's a thread you'd like to pull on, cuz I know we spoke about a lot in a single episode, uh, please do send through your comments and we'll see you next week.