Property Quorum: The Cracks Behind the Housing Drive

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]the conversational map another >> [music] >> Welcome on the avenue. I had to start the show quickly because there was such a a tumult of conversation happening in the green room. I wanted to capture it live and direct before we got out of hand. Um Welcome one and all. Of course, we have Hamish McAlpine as I was going to say.

[00:00:37]Creator of the show, Zara O'Brien as our next law team lawyer, and Salice Leese of Wigwam, investor investor and also social commentator, specifically when it comes to topics like today's one.

[00:00:52]Today's topic is the cracks behind the housing drive. I don't know whether I should put a question mark on the end of housing drive. I will get there in a second. Hamish, would you care to start us off?

[00:01:04]>> Well, good morning to you all. The cooler today, apparently, apparently grand grand weather here.

[00:01:11]Still they haven't quite reached it up in Scotland in some parts, but um here in England, it's obviously not good weather for building. Um um we were actually sort of one of the things we were speaking about. Sometimes these conversations in the green room actually get very very interesting indeed and we can get carried away with ourselves. We weren't really speaking entirely on the subject of today, but it part of it is relative to what the subject of today is.

[00:01:40]But there was meant to be a building drive and there is sort of commentary going on within the sort of the if you like the construction or the the property media about this sort of drive to sort of force ahead with building properties. Um part of our conversation will be speak about another week ended up with speaking about how many empty properties there are, but they're not necessarily new builds that are they're empty.

[00:02:07]Um, what what would we do need new builds. We need an incredible amount of new builds.

[00:02:13]But what the challenges is we haven't yet established how we are going to maintain quality within these new builds.

[00:02:22]Because it does appear um and we did have a conversation a couple of weeks ago on one of the podcasts where we were picking on some of the serious serious problems with new properties.

[00:02:35]Um, and I think between us, I mean back between the experts that we have here I should say uh who have actually sort of been in a I've never lived in a new property myself.

[00:02:46]Nor had to sort of view a new property particularly. I've never particularly wanted to.

[00:02:51]It was quite interesting. I was up in Birmingham the other day there and this absolutely glorious cottage. We were speaking to the owner of the cottage and she said when when she bought the cottage, she said it was at the end of the cul-de-sac and it was just fabulous and peaceful and lovely little walk to the park. Now all of a sudden this the sort of building the this sort of area of builders sort of gone on.

[00:03:13]There's been more and more houses. All of these all of these different sort of types of places and you can't get through the park any longer.

[00:03:21]And the total character sort of changed, but these things can happen, but the important thing is her cottage was a beautiful old cottage. The quality was tremendous. Can we rely on that for new build?

[00:03:36]>> Well, can we rely for new build? I I I I would say the two to rely on it for new build, Hamish, we would have to have new builds. All right, time time after time governments have promised us that there's going to be a housing drive to make up for sweet Maggie Thatcher and her let's sell sell off all the council houses, but not replace them.

[00:04:01]>> Yeah, that's why we've got um affordable housing quotas built into planning and section 106 agreements.

[00:04:10]Um but what I've been out to see some of these sites back in the day when I used to do shared ownership plot sales.

[00:04:18]Um and so we'd have a nosy down at what our clients were were selling.

[00:04:21]And you could see that visibly these affordable housing plots, you know, the theory behind it was that they didn't look different to the other ones, but you can see they're visibly smaller.

[00:04:32]Um what I'm finding as well new build properties are now visibly smaller.

[00:04:38]But you could call them three bedrooms.

[00:04:39]I went to look at one for my dad.

[00:04:42]Um the third bedroom, you could just about fit a bed in there. No cupboard, just a bed and perhaps a bedside table.

[00:04:50]That's the one he's got now. Literally, you can just about fit a single bed mattress in there. You can't really use it um for much else. Um you know, double bedrooms are still smaller as well.

[00:05:04]The whole you know, the whole ethos is you know, it's so- sold according to perhaps square footage or the number of bedrooms. So, the more you can squeeze into the smaller piece of land, the higher you can sell it for. And new builds always have a 30% uplift than your normal property. And that's kind of driven other house prices up as well.

[00:05:29]>> Wow. Uh Silas, so apparently, even though there are some new builds, you're getting uh you're paying more and you're getting less.

[00:05:38]>> Well, interesting. I just did a quick bit of research before we came on and some cursory research indicates that uh Labour's target is around 300,000 new homes built every year Uh and in their first year of government it was about 186,000 so quite a significant shortfall. And of course the problem being this is that compound year upon year upon year. So if we're falling behind this year which it looks to all intents and purposes like we are, we're halfway through the year practically.

[00:06:06]I don't think we're anywhere near on target to build 150,000 homes but in the first 6 months. So that's going to compound significantly and I think everybody could be um was quite convinced that there was no way we were going to build 1.5 million homes under a 5-year term of Labour. But but that aside, um when these targets become so unrealistic and as Zara has kindly highlighted here, that there is a pressure on to build, corners get cut. So back in the 1960s we had all of this with massive blocks of flats. We probably remember all those tower blocks that went up. Um we we when we were training to become surveyors, I shouldn't laugh about this but this is actually true. They surveyed the blocks of flats that were built in the 1960s around the Birmingham area and they found I believe it was nine of them were held up by their own self weight.

[00:06:55]I.e. nobody had put any bolts in to bolt all of the concrete panels together and put concrete concrete slurry into the joints to hold to bind the whole thing together. So a lot of these blocks of flats were condemned and people were moved out. They had to be moved out of these flats. And so you have to wonder is this just another iteration of the same corner cutting techniques in order to meet the quota of volume?

[00:07:20]And it is quite shocking. I like Zara, I've seen these modern new builds.

[00:07:25]There's not enough room to swing a cat as many would say.

[00:07:29]And I think it is shocking now that this is what has become with the standard of homes because people are desperate they're going to buy them. And and it is an unfortunate part about the supply and demand equation that nobody is is bearing down upon the developers and say that quality must matter as much as numbers.

[00:07:48]>> Well, but it appears to me, Silas, that recently because of all the kerfuffle around cladding, cladding matters on tomorrow. Please don't miss it. Um Sorry, shameless plug.

[00:08:02]But when you take the cladding off, you see the quality of the build underneath.

[00:08:07]And we're constantly hearing about people finding untoward things underneath the cladding skin.

[00:08:16]>> It's not a problem that's exclusive to cladding. I think it What it really comes down to is pride in a job well done. And as a surveyor, you can drive around looking at new build housing development sites and look at them and think, "Who on earth has put that brickwork up?" Or or who on earth has has done a lot of this development because you can see the quality is really poor. Now, your average consumer isn't going to know that. I was at a surveying conference 2 weeks ago, and they were suggesting that only a fifth of all properties that are purchased are purchased with a survey.

[00:08:48]And so, it's no wonder that so many developers are getting away with corner-cutting. I mean, if you were honest and went through as a building surveyor to look at a modern new build house, particularly after a couple of years of living in it, I think it would struggle to pass inspection. And that is the the real challenge that I think for many consumers is they don't know enough themselves and they're not educated on what's actually required. And until they are, they're not going to make better choices, which is why developers are going to keep sweeping these problems under the rug.

[00:09:17]But to your point about cladding, I don't think it's an exclusive problem just with high-rise blocks of flats with cladding. Cladding is is great because it's like plastering. Plastering covers up an enormity of sins within a room.

[00:09:29]But it's just the cladding it's plastering for external walls, right?

[00:09:33]>> Right. Well, it is is it's a modern form of render, isn't it? It's a And and the trouble is you put the pretty skin on the doll. It hides a multitude of ills. Uh Zara, we've talked about this sort of thing.

[00:09:49]Apparently, and you've told me that a lot of new build sites are stalled because they're not profitable anymore. So, you're saying they're not making quite enough money, so we don't get the houses we were promised.

[00:10:03]>> Yeah. Um there's lots of stories in the press about um you know, developers complaining it's no longer profitable, so they've literally stopped, um locked up the site and and walked off.

[00:10:16]Um but, you know, going back to what Silas was saying, um I always advise my new build buyers to make sure they go in with a snagging surveyor um before exchange if they can if it's built. If not, do one at least before you move in.

[00:10:34]Um but, you know, despite the quality of new builds, there's a lot underlying the legal stuff. We've got complex legal structures baked into every single new build site.

[00:10:45]Um now, every site I've noticed in the last 20 25 years has got an estate management company, um or sometimes two, depending on I've seen two on freehold houses. Um and you have to be ever so careful about what you're signing up to pay for. I also heard reports of a major developer putting into their transfer deeds that when the property's sold, they want a percentage of the sale price.

[00:11:16]And this is a house. This is not even a retirement home. This is a brand new build, um which I heard on the on the grapevine this is what they're trying to do.

[00:11:26]Um >> Doesn't that sound like sharp practice to you, Zara?

[00:11:30]>> sharp practice, but at the end of the day, we tell we warn clients that, you know, this is not right. You could have problems selling it in the future, but some people just go, "I don't care. I want the keys." And these problems are then stored up, and it's not something that can be easily resolved later on down the line without spending thousands of pounds. And of course, if you've ever dealt with the new build site office, I've literally had to phone someone with harassment um because she would call me first thing in the morning.

[00:12:06]If I was on the phone, she'd call the office. She'd email, not give me chance to respond, and then email the office to say she couldn't get hold of me. And she'd do the same every couple of hours.

[00:12:17]Uh and I was trying to resolve a major legal issue, and I I said, you know, "Enough is enough. You have to wait."

[00:12:23]But they literally constantly chase you and put you under pressure, not just the solicitors. They do it to their buyers, so the buyers get all wound up.

[00:12:32]Um so, you there's that kind of culture going on because they've got targets to meet. They want the money in.

[00:12:38]But obviously, you know, they're very careful about what they say, what specs we get. You know, the solicitors don't look at the specifications.

[00:12:46]You know, you it's up to the buyer to make sure they get hold of them and keep them. Um but I don't know if you saw that program on ITV a few months ago um about new build nightmares. Um councils are allowing developers to build on known flood plains.

[00:13:05]Um and this particular site on that program had actually been flooded whilst they were building it.

[00:13:12]And this poor lady bought, and then it was flooded again while she was living in it. Now, although they had a flood risk part of the planning, the um it hadn't been properly dealt with or signed off.

[00:13:25]Um and you know, the council just basically said we don't have enough powers to enforce them.

[00:13:34]We don't have the manpower to deal with this. Um so, this is what we're you know, this is what Joe Bloggs is facing is that whatever the developers do um if they say yes, okay now or they you know, they've gone to the recommended person, might not be checked as thoroughly. Um or they you know, they accept the risk.

[00:13:56]You know, they're going to end up having to pay for it in the future. Same with these estate roads and sewers.

[00:14:01]If you're having them maintained by an estate management company um they don't have to build them to adoptable standards. Your average conveyancer doesn't know what they're looking for, what evidence to ask for in respect of roads and sewers.

[00:14:17]Um one of the lenders have cottoned on to this, so they're being a bit more fussy.

[00:14:21]Um but you know, that is a ticking It's a clock ticking away waiting to explode.

[00:14:28]Um when the bills start coming out right these these roads need be be laying kind of thing.

[00:14:37]>> You're mute You're on mute, Gareth.

[00:14:40]>> [clears throat] >> Apologies. I had a sneezing fit so I thought I'd mute myself. Thank you Thank you, Silas. Um James, um it appears to me that we're being screwed every way till Sunday uh and uh the councils don't Well, they seem to be throwing their hands up in the air and taking no responsibility.

[00:14:59]>> I think that the councils are really going going through it at the moment. Um unfortunately, what we we do seem to have in this country and it it it's become evident clearly through uh various happenings that we found out within the within cladding and the cladding matters and an awful lot's been brought to light there. But genuinely sort of there are some councils that try as much as they like, they are not in a position to be able to support the demands that are now being put upon them. I mean, we've argued with them sort of conveyancing, I say argued demonstrative and conveyancing, more and more pressure is being putting on conveyancing solicitors or conveyancers generally. Um because all of these additional things that are sort of coming along, which is and because of the the the absence of the number of uh quality quality solicitors, quality property lawyers um to sort out all of these queries, they're taking that little bit longer anyway.

[00:16:04]And the other the other thing is, of course, the enthusiasm as Sara so often speaks about of people just wanting to get into their properties. Um there's a sort there's an awful lot of stuff going on. And therefore, these cracks, never mind the cracks within the properties themselves, these cracks within the agreements, these cracks within the um the contracts that are being signed for the new properties. And the assumption, I mean, this is a tremendous assumption like Sara was indicating, particularly with new properties. People can't they think they're going to be perfectly right. Why should I bother with a surveyor? They've only just built the property.

[00:16:46]And then like as Sara also pointed out, the snagging if you actually sort of get a snagging surveyor to go in and check it out before you move in just as do do it does everything fit are the fire doors lined up pro, you know, are the doors sealed pro, all of these particular people sort of rush into it, they rush into it. And then, of course, afterwards it is a bit it is far too late. If you go to buy a car, you go in it's a brand new car and you say, "Well, I don't like this, I don't like that."

[00:17:16]And you get these minor adjustments, you go in you know, you buy your car.

[00:17:21]I mean, you could only be paying 20,000 pounds for a car.

[00:17:25]Not 250, 500, or 3/4 of a million pounds on a house. So, why can't you actually ensure that that house?

[00:17:33]We do not have the facilities, we do not have the regulators to regulate all of these things combined together along with the pressure on the conveyancing teams.

[00:17:44]So, all together, we've got a lot So, we're trying to push more and more houses through without these appropriate sort of checks.

[00:17:54]Where's our property going to be in the next 20 years when we come to actually sort of look at it?

[00:18:00]Particularly with things what's going to be impacted because we know we're going to get longer periods of this warmer weather.

[00:18:07]Um not not because um we don't manufacture in this country any longer, not because we don't use our own gas and oil and all the rest of these particular sort of things, but largely because the universe is changing. We can't control the universe much as we'd like to.

[00:18:25]But, there's too much out of control, I think.

[00:18:28]>> All right. Um I mean, I believe there's a lot of gaslighting by developers solicitors saying that no one has raised this I've heard this before.

[00:18:37]This is terrible. They try and make you make you feel like you're you're stupid by raising these concerns.

[00:18:44]Really, Zara, this is not unusual, right?

[00:18:47]>> No, there's there's a lot of discussion on the conveyancing forums um where, you know, people sort of say, "Is this an issue? We're being told by the developers solicitors it's not." Um and there's those of us who are conscientious and checking these things.

[00:19:05]Um we're being told by the developers solicitors, "No, there's nothing wrong with it because nobody else has raised this."

[00:19:10]But, if you've got a site of 20 where 15 are being dealt with by the that conveyancer, of course you're not going to get [clears throat] mistakes being picked up.

[00:19:20]>> No.

[00:19:21]I mean, theoretically, I I of course we're not pointing any fingers per se.

[00:19:25]If they're all being covered by the same solicitor, they they have a a vested interest, one might say.

[00:19:32]>> the the professional indemnity insurers are picking up on this. So, now they're sort of saying to conveyancers, you're not allowed to deal with more than handfuls of uh plots on the same site. Um same with the um lenders as well. They have um you know, the lenders spread out. You know, you won't get one lender for all the plots. It will be, you know, they've got a maximum that where they will lend on on a particular site. I think it was a couple of years ago I picked up a post from one of the campaigners.

[00:20:04]A major lender has got a list of sites that they've kind of blacklisted.

[00:20:10]>> Wow.

[00:20:11]Silas, before I pass back to Hamish, it um the whole point of today's conversation was that there are cracks in the housing drive. And I I made a crack of my own just before we came in saying well, for a housing drive to be a housing drive, it has to be going beyond 0 mph. Do you see any potential for that to be actually a housing drive per se?

[00:20:38]>> I I think that what we're witnessing is a compounding of a lot of other topics that we've talked about in the past, uh particularly culminating in the actual cost of development. And And Sarah pointed out earlier that some of these sites have been mothballed because they're no longer profitable to profitable to develop. And that is a an issue that will continue to compound.

[00:20:56]The more expensive energy gets, the more expensive uh it gets to employ people um and on all the rest of it, it's going to become more expensive. And at some point you peak out on affordability because people will say I'm not paying 450,000 for a one-bedroom flat in a Chesterfield because it's just not worth it. And I I I think the the other compounding problem that we've got here, and this is a very serious problem that I'm really keen to address within the property industry, is the burnout effect that's happening to really good quality surveyors and and conveyancers and to a some extent estate agents where all of these pressures are being put on and concentrated onto individuals that is causing them them to exit the profession. And so the poor consumer, of course, is left without the proper guidance that they need in one of the most expensive transactions of their life. You know, Zara is an excellent excellent conveyancer, there's no two two ways about it, but we need more and more of her and more of more of her expertise passed on to future generations. At the moment, the new breed that are coming through, they haven't got that oversight and this is happening in local councils. I think this is default to computer thinking.

[00:22:04]What does the computer say rather than let me go and have a look at that site and has it flooded or does my local knowledge from being in this area for the last 40 years dictate that that site has been known flood plain for for the last 200 years we're not going to allow houses on it or if we are, they're going to be 10 ft up in the air. Those are the sorts of things that are missing. It's that common sense, it's that expertise and and wisdom that I think is missing in so many areas at least of all in politics.

[00:22:32]And that is something that I think we we desperately need to get a grip of very soon.

[00:22:37]>> As I say, common sense is less and less common these days. Hamish, would you take us home, please?

[00:22:43]>> Well, I'm not so sure home is the right word today, but um there are directions and we're not moving as fast as we'd like. We're certainly not getting the number of quality the number of properties built the appropriate quality of built.

[00:22:59]And of course, the what we are finding because of this and because of the uh the absence of affordability, we're getting more investment from abroad, I think, at the moment, too. So, there is go going to be ownership of properties now um not not from the British Bri- British British living sort of the British population seems to be uh the original British population seems to be moving out to a certain extent to move move to places where it's sort of more comfortable to live where they don't get sort of harassed too much for making a profit out of living.

[00:23:33]Um and unfortunately, the investment in this country sort of is counterbalanced by somebody outside of Bri- British uh expanding on that. And of course, this doesn't help the whole situation when we look at the professionals, the true professionals, like the surveyors, like the the solicitors.

[00:23:54]And the numbers, we can't attract those numbers in anymore that we'd attract the the right quality of teachers any longer. The the thing is is is we have a sad sad aspect. We've got all these people qualified through universities, but they they've lost the they've lost the skill factor.

[00:24:11]They don't they aren't able to teach because they haven't been able to they haven't taught them how to do that.

[00:24:15]Well, somehow actually, you have a quality you are able to teach or not, actually. Um but anyway, but whatever the profession seems to be, and we're not attracting those young builders in.

[00:24:28]It used to be a great great thing when I particularly when I was actually teaching myself, the number of number of you that still actually sort of go out and they would go into the building industry because it was such a great place to go. They were outdoors, spend a lot of time. And there was a great So, unfortunately, the the the whole the whole of the the property sector, the whole of the industry is suffering from an awful lot There's an awful lot going on there. And until we get the quality of people to actually if you like, once we introduce all these wonderful regulations, it does need to be properly regulated, too.

[00:25:06]Whether it be whether it be the regular the estate agents, the surveyors, the conveyancers, the builder I mean, there's just so so much that we've just lost the knack of doing in this country.

[00:25:19]Hopefully, some way that will be found that we can actually sort of start working on it and start improving it. And we can actually if you like, there there needs to be a build drive, but there needs to be an effective build drive.

[00:25:35]>> Well, as I hope was the last thing to fly out of Pandora's Box, and let's hope let's hope that there is that movement, as positive movement, as you said, Hamish. Thank you so much. Zara Oliver Workers from Next Move of course, Salah J Lisa, commentator, Wiggy Ram, and of course, Hamish McCloud of such convey and to all of you watching, um please try and take these not as drives, but as as perhaps to grind get your thing screwed to the sticking post and make a positive move forward. Let's get better homes soon.

[00:26:13]Until next time, please get your feet on the ground, keep reaching for the stars in these troubled times. Please try and look after your mental health. Until tomorrow. Bye-bye.

[00:26:25]>> [music] [music] [music]