A Conversation On Unpaid Care | The Importance Of Male Allyship

追加: 2026-05-19

[00:00:00]When you think of care, what do you think of?

[00:00:02]>> Women get postpartum [music] depression, they get child bringing up depression, they get taking care of the elderly depression. Why? Cuz they actually even when you take care of a sick parent, you actually get sicker. Some of the things [music] that my dad used to tell me is a man's place is not do some [music] things in the house.

[00:00:21]So, I realized when you lecture people they resist.

[00:00:26]But when you use humor, you make them laugh, they reflect. Then switch when men are in the vulnerable positions that women have always been in. Yeah.

[00:00:42]>> [laughter] >> Hello. Hello. How are you doing? This is new. This is a new setup for me. My name is Mashirima Kapombe. I'm a journalist with Citizen TV Kenya. But for purposes of this conversation on care, we're in a different room, not the usual studio.

[00:01:00]And today we are talking about care but the aspect of male allyship. When you think about care, what do you think about? Unpaid care? Is it something you've heard before or is it new?

[00:01:12]So, here in this studio, we have men only. And let me tell you, anytime people see a panel of men of men only, they're like, "Where are the women in the room?"

[00:01:23]But for the purposes of this conversation, we want to hear the men's voices because they have a lot of power.

[00:01:30]They have a lot of influence. And inasmuch as we want women to win, we cannot win on our own. We have to partner. We have to be allies. And I'll start by introducing our panelists today for this podcast. And we have Peter Ngure. He's the founder of Pathways Initiative. He was also instrumental, part of the team that came up with a policy on costing care. Thank you so much for joining us today. We have DJ Soxxy who really needs no introduction.

[00:02:00]Entertainer extraordinaire, you know him from online. He's also an influencer and a voice for maternal and reproductive health. We also have Caris memes, one of my favorite content creators.

[00:02:14]Favorite content creators. Do you remember the last one you did on on Kikuyu's naming Their businesses, yeah.

[00:02:21]>> [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:02:23]That was a good one. Thank you. So, let's jump right into it.

[00:02:28]When you think of care, what do you think of? Is it the first time you or rather when was the first time you heard of care and unpaid care?

[00:02:37]What should I do Soxxy?

[00:02:39]Right. I didn't know you know English, but yeah, I'm impressed. [laughter] Wow.

[00:02:46]Well done. Thank [clears throat] you.

[00:02:47]I think for me when I hear care, when I think care, I think my mom.

[00:02:51]Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is my mom, you know, feeding me, washing me, taking care of the home, taking care of my sisters, you know, cooking food for us. I think top of mind, that's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear care, it's my mom. Caris.

[00:03:11]Yeah, more or less the same.

[00:03:14]Care, I go back to home where we were raised and ultimately my mom.

[00:03:20]And how we were raised because you could see there's a lot she's doing and there's a lot and there's also just there. He's just Ministry of Finance.

[00:03:33]>> [laughter] >> Ministry of Interior just leads.

[00:03:38]And mom is the one who's taking care of everything in in in the house. So, when I think of care is is home and mom particularly.

[00:03:46]What has shaped your understanding on how men can show up in care? Soxxy. I think for me, it's my upbringing. You know, uh and I grew up I'm the only boy at home. So, I grew up with four sisters.

[00:04:00]And I saw the amount of work that I put in, you know? Some of the things that my dad used to tell me is a man's place is not to do some things in the house. You know, you only kazi ya wasichana.

[00:04:13]Uh, but once I left home and I married my wife, I realized some of the struggles that she goes through.

[00:04:22]And you know, I I actually acknowledge that you know what?

[00:04:26]Some of these things that we assume are roles Yeah. uh, specific to women or to wives uh, specific to husbands, you know, are not necessarily it. It does not mean that this is where you draw the line at this is in terms of care and and work. This is what a man needs to do, this is what a woman needs to do. Because I want to make my marriage thrive. And I want to make my home happier, you know? Happy wife, happy life. So, [laughter] the more I support her, I realized the more I support her, the more I support the more I did those roles that are not necessarily men's roles, uh, there was a huge difference, you know?

[00:05:07]For example, even just taking care of my my children, you know? Some of the things that are not ordinarily my responsibilities, quote and quote.

[00:05:17]Like washing, you know? My kids. You know, like changing diapers.

[00:05:23]They are not necessarily my roles, but they have a lot of impact. You know, because one, I get to bond with my children, you know? I also get to bond with my wife because uh, the more I support her, the happier she is. And you know, and the happier she is, the happier I am. So, >> And she'll have more time for you as well.

[00:05:42]>> Exactly. And so, it means that I I unlearned some things and and learned and intentionally learned some things.

[00:05:49]And so it's not until it's the end. I'm still learning, still growing, still trying new things, you know, even acknowledging that this is not drawing line in terms of roles and things that I need to do and things that I do not need to do, but it's actually this is our common thing. And it does not necessarily make me any less of a man.

[00:06:10]Yeah.

[00:06:10]>> Because I am doing some things. Yeah, I was I was just about to get into that because Carissa is a content creator. Of course, you've seen when when men come out and show that they're supporting their wives, there's this word that always comes up, seems. Yes. And they'll tell you seems wanna dust.

[00:06:28]So, how how do you how do you bridge that in your content creation to show that care is not this thing that when when a man does it it's like it's taken away from their masculine masculinity.

[00:06:42]No, probably now through my content uh mine is humor.

[00:06:50]So, I realized when you lecture people they resist.

[00:06:55]But when you use humor, you make them laugh, they reflect.

[00:06:59]They're they're like, ah, but you only meme me.

[00:07:02]That's that's that's situation you just put on on on on the reels, that's me. Like the one I did last year of me being in bed and there's so much chaos in the house, there's noises, it's like a wild war three going on.

[00:07:17]>> [laughter] >> People are screaming, people are shouting, and me I'm just in the bed wondering what is all this.

[00:07:22]>> [laughter] >> And in fact, that was my best performing post last year.

[00:07:28]So, it shows you that people relate with that. And now when you put it in that aspect, they relate with it and they're like, ah, okay, I think we are sometimes we are unfair.

[00:07:39]And we should be more caring towards our people in the house. Yeah. Yeah, being present and all that. Yeah. Yeah. I also understood care when I moved out of my parents' house.

[00:07:51]>> Yeah. Now, that's when you realize you need to cook, you need to clean.

[00:07:56]You also need emotional support at some point.

[00:07:58]That's when you realize, "Oh my goodness, somebody was doing this."

[00:08:02]Care.

[00:08:04]Unpaid care. Yeah. You've come from work, you're tired, you get to the house, you have to do all those things.

[00:08:09]That's when you realize care is so important. Yeah.

[00:08:13]>> but religion is even what what I can say is the worst. With the religion is the one that really shapes care. Tells you you are the head of the household. True.

[00:08:24]You're the priest. Yeah. You're the provider.

[00:08:27]Actually, when you go through premarital class, they actually draw a chart of roles and responsibilities that this is what you need to do, this is what you need to do. This is man's role. Now, you'll be the man of the house, the husband, you know. So, these are your roles. Then, as a woman, these are your roles. But, let me add something that Carice, you the last meme that if you can just explain what the meme that you did was you're in bed and the chaos is like the wife getting the kids ready.

[00:09:04]I know it's not generic because now in my house here I am that You're the one who deals with the chaos.

[00:09:12]Exactly. I'm the one who deals with the chaos. I'm the one who wakes up first because I am the one who takes I I don't in terms of dressing but I'm the one who dresses, uh takes the kids to school early in the morning.

[00:09:23]It's my role. But, you see, it's not that way in most houses. The assumption is it is the man, it's the woman who does that work.

[00:09:33]But, in my home it is actually quite a not really me, but I am the one who wakes up first. So, I'm the one who deals with the chaos of uh Leo should just keep going to school.

[00:09:42]Oh, ni ni ni uh where are my socks?

[00:09:44]Where I'm the one who deals with. So, there's no, I think, generic way of of uh of roles. And that's why I'm saying, as you say church and the way religion almost shapes, you know, and draws a line, there's nothing generic about how we do things. In my home, it works because that's how it is. And there's nothing wrong with that. In another person's home, it's the wife who wakes up early in the morning to dress, to cook. Mhm.

[00:10:11]Yeah.

[00:10:13]>> [clears throat] >> There's a Sometimes there's a discomfort on on costing care when that conversation comes up. I've seen it um online where someone says, you know, um if I have to do all these things, then can you pay me for it?

[00:10:28]And you see, it's different when you've hired someone to do it. Yeah, let me ask. If, say, if uh for example today, I chose to pay you as my wife for doing that role, that wifely role in the house, would you take it nicely?

[00:10:47]No, I'm not your wife. No, I'm just saying.

[00:10:49]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm just asking.

[00:10:53]I'm just saying if if I went home today and I told my wife, you know, I will be paying you X thousand shillings every month for the roles that you do as a wife, I doubt if it would go down well. It's I I doubt it would go down well.

[00:11:07]>> Just I mean it. We We when we're doing the research when we're doing the research and supporting the policy, we asked young girls, millennials, late millennials, and Gen Zs, if someone paid you to become a housewife, like our old parents were housewives, but this time you're being paid, you're earning money to stay home and just do the basic, our 40% said, I want.

[00:11:33]I don't to I don't want to wake I don't want to wake up at 5:00 to start running around with traffic and get to work, get a boss who is crazy, come back home, I have all these pressures. We are like if you you're treating me well, like it's not it's not the the old school housewives who are also not treated. If if you actually allowing me to feel like we are equal in this and I am earning from it and it doesn't have to be earning from my husband or from my boyfriend or from my partner. It's like we have something common that we do as a family. Let's say you have a business. That business pays the husband because he works there. This business pays the wife because she takes care of things at home before the guy goes to work and they were like we want that kind of an arrangement. But isn't that isn't that redistribution? Because when you talk about it, I'm thinking of of my own folks.

[00:12:24]And and I I remember when uh during my mom's funeral when my dad said my my mom was his second in command. He would be able to go to work and and do his thing because he has an assurance that the kids will be taken care of, the home will be taken care of. If there are projects that have to be done, then that's how they're thinking. So at what point did we lose it? Actually, let me >> that's redistribution is not the same.

[00:12:54]You know, here we are assuming that it's the wife, it's the lady staying at home.

[00:12:59]And getting paid for it.

[00:13:02]How about the man stays at home?

[00:13:05]And the lady pays for this man and the roles that he does in the house. Especially with the empowerment of women nowadays.

[00:13:13]They have opportunities. Yeah. More than the boy child nowadays.

[00:13:16]>> So would you guys stay home?

[00:13:19]No.

[00:13:20]>> [laughter] >> Very direct. DJ Sbu, would you stay home? It was just a hypothetical question.

[00:13:25]>> [laughter] >> But but I would feel bad and that's why when I place myself in the same position, I would feel bad that my wife is paying me for just being who I ought to be. And I think we go back to the hypothetical question that that DJ Soxxy brought up. Um, and can we look at what does male allyship look like on a day-to-day? Not in theory, in practical sense.

[00:13:54]Karis.

[00:13:56]It means presence.

[00:13:59]It means um you actually knowing your kids' schedules.

[00:14:05]Not just paying fees.

[00:14:07]When I I'm done.

[00:14:10]>> [laughter] >> It means knowing what goes on with their routine, everything about them, their hobbies, all that.

[00:14:18]It means being there, like clinic visits when your wife needs to go to the clinic, maternal care.

[00:14:25]It means being present to me on a on a day-to-day basis.

[00:14:31]Yeah. DJ Soxxy. I think for me it also means just to add on what Karisa said, being intentional.

[00:14:39]Even to and even as we have this conversation.

[00:14:42]Knowing what like your partner, your wife goes through.

[00:14:47]You know, on a day on a day-to-day. You know, not assuming that ah she was meant for this. Ah madem going to sing. The way we say ladies say exactly. And there's a certain grace that you're given that as we being intentional to find out what does she really go through? Because I know there are times my wife all she needs for her to have a good day is a cappuccino and a piece of cake.

[00:15:16]Just that.

[00:15:18]And she's [laughter] happy.

[00:15:23]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, for me all that's important.

[00:15:27]Yes.

[00:15:28]From me. Because you're recognizing that thing.

[00:15:31]Yes. And you see because I over time and that's what I was saying you learn over time. I have because now I'm intentional to know what she goes through. There are days that I would tell she's going through a bad day. Yeah.

[00:15:45]You know, it's been a bad day for her.

[00:15:48]So, I will try and acknowledge and recognize what she's done and how she's feeling and try and cheer her up. Yeah. I think for me it's that intentionality. Yeah.

[00:15:58]>> Yeah. So, Peter how how how do we invite men into these conversations where they're not feeling like so so you're putting me in a box or it's an us versus them kind of conversation. How how do we get everybody to be on one page?

[00:16:14]I think this it should start very early for for for young kids just to know the distribution the first the recognition of that these roles are there.

[00:16:25]And some roles will not be redistributed. It's impossible to redistribute some roles.

[00:16:32]And that's why we come to the that hour of rewarding.

[00:16:34]The reason why we go through that is because if you think of taking care of newborn.

[00:16:43]Even if you wanted to as much as possible say men should or can they will not They will not breastfeed. They will not nurture. They will not kangaroo children. So, that's a role that the woman will do. But they can. Cuz when you mentioned a newborn I just had to because when I think about it as a woman hey, it's not a place you you want to to be really all the time.

[00:17:16]I'm speaking as someone who had a baby 11 years ago and even when I think about having a baby now, those are the things I'm thinking about. I'm like when I hear a man saying, you know I can't relate. I'm like, what?

[00:17:30]>> hours how many hours would you give your husband to nature a 1-week-old? It's not even hours. It's just that support. And let me give Let me Let me give my own personal experience with my dad because he and I'll speak about him a lot. He He was there. Like in the middle of the night he would hear the baby crying and he would come knock on my door and say, "Bring the baby." And he would go with him for 2 or so hours so that I I can get some sleep.

[00:17:59]And then he would bring him back like at 5:00 a.m. and say, "Now it's my turn to sleep." And that's only that that's when my mother wasn't there.

[00:18:07]So it's not about giving hours and say, "Oh, in a week you need to do a b c d."

[00:18:13]It's just knowing that there's someone who can recognize and doesn't have to be told that hey, I'm tired.

[00:18:21]>> I'm tired. It's It's that You've You've talked about two things and they are there like you're trying to redefine them. One is recognize.

[00:18:29]The fact that he's recognized that this child 60% or 70% of this child this child needs the mother.

[00:18:37]But I can play a role that is being played by the mother to try and help her offload some of of that. And I use the wrong word, not help because helping insinuates that this is not my work.

[00:18:53]But then because I see you're tired, I can come in and I can go if I don't want to. So I think that's that's where now the reward comes in.

[00:19:06]How much do you recognize and reward some of the unpaid or paid some of the care work. How do you recognize that this role really this individual cannot because doesn't have to be men or women because there are some women who really can't take care of children and there's some men who are good at it.

[00:19:25]How do you recognize that what this guy is doing is needs and that's the way nurturing now as you address that's the way nurturing is important. It's not telling every boy that now as you're growing up should play with with toys so that you you kick in your maternal instinct or the telling girls now you should play with cars so that you kick in this instinct is about redefining that whole concept that we are not telling you now start doing that because there's there's a time where this conversation is that why do we have gents and ladies in spaces like here I've seen we have a gents and we have a ladies but at home we don't have a gents and a ladies. We use one washroom all of us. Why is it at home we our mentality is okay to use one washroom and in public spaces in school in whatever our mentality is I can't go to that ladies washroom. I don't know any. I can't go to the male washroom.

[00:20:21]So it's it's how we redefine from when we are young that this is not a role for any of the genders. This is something we should do for our family. For example, I have a daughter and a son. Daughter is older 11 years son 9 years.

[00:20:40]So what we purpose to do is you see the way after having maybe dinner or lunch you'll always assume it's the lady to go and wash the dishes but we decided no today it's your shift to wash the dishes the girl tomorrow it's the boy's shift so that he doesn't grow up thinking that you know washing dishes is only for because that's how I grew up. That's how I grew up. My dad wouldn't allow me to go to the kitchen. You know, because so me I grew up knowing Viyombo needs a woman to work.

[00:21:16]You know? So, imagine now me getting married and I expecting my wife to do the same because that's how I grew up. But, it's not that uh in a bad way.

[00:21:27]But, it's just that those gender norms I have grown up seeing this is how it ought to play. Yeah. And so, for me uh we decided let's short-circuit this.

[00:21:36]It's not It's not about this or that.

[00:21:39]Yeah. Uh but, going back to the baby thing and and raising a child we acknowledge that there are roles that a man cannot do. As much as I want to support my wife I cannot breastfeed.

[00:21:51]Yeah. You know? And I know there are times that my wife will get frustrated.

[00:21:56]She has cracked nipples, you know? She can't The baby's not latching. There are days that, you know, but >> [clears throat] >> I acknowledge I cannot Mhm.

[00:22:05]breast There's a place that, to be honest I cannot be able to be uh what my wife can be to the children Yeah. as a lady and as the mom. Mhm. But, it does not take away that it does not mean that she's more superior than me.

[00:22:27]So, that I allow her to be you know? And she also allows me to to be. Yeah.

[00:22:34]We also need, I think, to to accept that we cannot 100% understand or feel what you feel.

[00:22:43]But, it does not mean that we do not try and understand. Yeah.

[00:22:47]>> We do try and learn. You cannot breastfeed, but you can burp. I can Exactly. Exactly. I can bath the baby, you know? I can change diaper. I can, you know, those small things. And at times, just as you said, like like your dad used to do. Take the baby.

[00:23:04]Allow her to rest.

[00:23:06]You know.

[00:23:07]Allow her to rest. Allow her to have her time and just walk, you know. And Mimi But you haven't seen you haven't seen these videos of of when when when the woman stores her breast milk and then the man puts it in a bottle and then he has some crazy way of pretending to you know feed the baby.

[00:23:33]The moms the moms >> [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> As I said, anybody watched the movie Fatherhood Kevin Hart? Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:23:51]Yes. I coincidentally watched it last week.

[00:23:54]And it explains everything we're talking about here.

[00:23:57]Care.

[00:23:58]The wife died after giving birth to the daughter.

[00:24:03]So he took in the daughter and it was a hell for him to raise the child.

[00:24:09]The child couldn't sleep and I'm putting her to sleep and I'm putting her to sleep the whole night. So he was going crazy.

[00:24:16]Even Kevin's heart Kevin Hart's mom came to offer to take the child.

[00:24:20]He considered but he rejected. He said I'm going to do it. And he did and eventually they grew up and bonded so well with the daughter and eventually it was a happily ever after kind of story.

[00:24:30]Yeah. Yeah. When the woman Eventually you become friends. I should go watch it.

[00:24:34]But I think that's that's now what the real care conversation is about.

[00:24:39]Is Like I look at policies. Like now we are writing the policy but then uh if you look at paternity versus maternity.

[00:24:48]And even look at developed countries, they don't give maternity. You go on leave.

[00:24:54]Paternity you go on leave. It's not like maternity and paternity. Why? Because now we've placed it like maternity is 3 months. Some organizations say 6 months and we clap.

[00:25:04]But the guy is still being given 2 weeks and then he's given maybe 1 month and we clap for that organization. They're not really thinking what is this guy going to do at home now that you've given him paternity leave.

[00:25:16]To be honest, I mean long ago when I was a bit younger paternity was a drinking spree.

[00:25:25]I actually wanted to say that.

[00:25:27]That's how I used my paternity. Those 2 weeks Yeah, I have a kid. I'm happy. So I'm celebrating every day.

[00:25:35]>> [laughter] >> It's like it deals with with this issue of like care.

[00:25:39]Like now we're talking about child care.

[00:25:41]There's the care for the elderly which is also part of that. Like when you have elderly people come to your parents are old and sickly, it's still the women who actually take care of. Even if it's my parents, when they come to my home it's not me who will deal with them. It's But but now when talking about the way society sees the day my wife gives birth the whole house is full of women.

[00:26:08]And so as a guy, I am a bit concerned. Yeah, you want to step out.

[00:26:13]>> I really want to be there but the society and how people are is that even those women are the ones who are telling you where about So I know to in most communities up to 3 months the lady actually stays with the mother or the mother-in-law. So as much as we want like for the child to do care work more and more, bringing men into care work, we also need to look at some of these societal setups that really limit our people from doing care and offering care especially for children. The elderly, it's a bit different because yes, it's a women who do more of it, but at least the men have enough space to to work together in in in taking care.

[00:27:01]>> that you've brought that up and and what Caritas talked about when it comes to the movie Fatherhood. What's the cost of perception for men who choose to be in this space of care when they're at work, Mhm. when they're out having their social thing with the with the kids or whatever. What's the cost of perception for the men? What what do you go through?

[00:27:25]You're mocked.

[00:27:27]>> [laughter] >> It was seen. You're a colonist.

[00:27:32]And the assumption is >> [laughter] >> you you are less of a man. Yeah, because you've done A, B, C, D.

[00:27:39]But I believe I strongly believe there are many men out there who do it the right way.

[00:27:47]But we never talk about them. Mhm.

[00:27:49]They rarely talk about them. You know, that you know, because and that's why they'll rather nyamaza was it to convey uh than talk about and celebrate such men. And we all encourage women actually.

[00:28:03]Women rarely talk about the good things that their men do for them.

[00:28:07]Rarely.

[00:28:22]>> [laughter] >> You know, I'm you rarely speak about I'll encourage women. Even structurally and because when we are now doing the laws, you have to do a lot of structural thinking. Think structurally.

[00:28:50]If you were walking in town and saw a man carrying a small baby and the kid is crying.

[00:28:58]If it was a woman, people would say, "Let's try and help. What's going on?"

[00:29:02]If it's a man, who would say This is structural thinking. When I come to uh spaces that we call modern spaces, modern washrooms, the men [clears throat] place has no baby changing spot. The women washroom has a baby. So, me as a man, I'll take my baby and I want to change them. I'll walk into a ladies washroom. The first thing every lady will scream in that washroom.

[00:29:23]"Kuna mwanaume kwa choo yetu." So, you see, even these guys who really want to help, structures are making it impossible. And so, sometimes, even when we're changing the law, we're changing society, we're changing the thinking, you have to create structures that support this kind of You have to say my boy. By the way, I used to really struggle with my my daughter.

[00:29:45]Uh when we go maybe to a mall and she wants to go use the washroom.

[00:29:54]I used to party at a lady up what he just please me I can't. So, you know what I used to do? I used to her eyes. I enter into the gents.

[00:30:03]I match So, I need your sheet or even the woman I'm a macho and I am a man direct what you call I'm a so that you see you right now the man then I end up [clears throat] she does her business.

[00:30:22]Then I think her eyes again. I come out, but I would tell Mhm. You know You know what you talk about and I want to go judge.

[00:30:39]So, there is what are you saying?

[00:30:40]Systems even structure and we we need to do better. We need to do better. I like that you brought that up because it was going to be my next question on the stories that are missing because men you go through a lot. We we don't know about at least we men we talk about them because when he just talks he's talking about what he had to do with his daughter I'm thinking of what I have to do with my son. When you need to go for those bathroom breaks and you're traveling or you're in the mall it's a headache.

[00:31:09]And I'm just outside the gents thinking is he okay? Has anybody touched him?

[00:31:16]What has happened in there? So I don't know what what do you guys talk about as men when it comes to these care conversations that are missing that women don't know about. Caris.

[00:31:28]We actually rarely have those conversations to be honest. Talk about other things yes uh politics sports maybe I think but when it comes to that conversation I hear you too.

[00:31:42]>> [laughter] >> There's nothing that goes on. So it it we should normalize it.

[00:31:48]Because it's it's it's it's a day-to-day type of scenario.

[00:31:54]And I think normalizing the conversation is what should happen henceforth from now.

[00:31:59]Yeah there's no shame there is it's not weakness to be there for your family and for your wife. She's a human being.

[00:32:07]And like he said happy wife happy life.

[00:32:11]So yeah even when you're there presently for her the house is peaceful is nice and yeah.

[00:32:20]Life becomes uh sweeter.

[00:32:22]Yeah.

[00:32:23]So sweet. And we also feel bad.

[00:32:25]We also get we may not show it but it it hurts us to see you struggle.

[00:32:32]Maybe we never speak about it but it like it would crush me when I come back home in the evening and I find my wife crying.

[00:32:47]Yeah.

[00:32:49]You see, most people assume that we are macho, we feel nothing. That's why at times maybe you avoid being in that space because you do not want to see the pain that your partner is going through. Let me give you an example. Uh my wife's mom, my mom-in-law, passed on some years back. And for the last month uh when she was uh alive, we stayed with her at home.

[00:33:20]So, my wife was the primary caregiver.

[00:33:25]You know, she took care of her, everything.

[00:33:28]But, I would be macho, I would look strong, but deep down it would crash me just to see what the mom is going through and what my wife is going through. We may not speak about it.

[00:33:43]We may at times want to support, and the only support that I could give her at times is just to hug her and allow her to cry.

[00:33:51]Just that. Mhm. Because that's the match that that I would do and I but deep down it would crash me. And at times I would not I would leave the house just because just to freshen my mind. You know, I feel it's it's draining. And you see, this is a modern this is a modern man.

[00:34:12]Traditional men like me would say, "So, my wife is stressed.

[00:34:21]The first thing that comes to my mind is not what she's going through or what she's feeling or what she's is more of That's true. I want to relief Yes. this burden of care. So, can I pay someone Mhm. Can I So, we and and You're not addressing the emotional >> Men have Men have been monetized.

[00:34:41]So, when a problem of care comes up the first solution that men have been taught to give is monetary, is financial.

[00:34:51]How do we deal with this?

[00:34:53]Oh, you're tired of washing your money Let's get a house help. You're tired of driving your car, let's get you a driver. Yeah.

[00:35:02]So, we have actually just kept monetizing other than bring the emotional aspect of it, bring the psychological aspect of it.

[00:35:10]So, that everybody understands care is not really all about reward.

[00:35:16]It has more than just paying for care. But, someone would ask um what's the problem with that? Cuz if if a man has been conditioned since he was a little boy that this is how I help my partner.

[00:35:33]This is how I help my mom.

[00:35:34]This is how I help my sister. Is can I get someone to do it because I I can't relate. So, what's the problem with that? It's that last bit you said.

[00:35:45]I can't relate.

[00:35:46]And that is where now the the challenge with with care work. And that's why when night care started nursing it was purely supposed to be women becoming nurses, not men. Why? Cuz they could relate. They could feel >> feel um Do Do I have a whole conversation there?

[00:36:06]There was used to be a head of uh um secretary of state in the US went to a NATO meeting and it was all men. And um she was only women. And so, they were talking about war.

[00:36:17]And she was asked what do you think about the war?

[00:36:22]She said, I feel. And all the men told her, no, you don't feel war.

[00:36:27]You think war, you don't So, it's it's now men have been told like they only use brains. And like it's it's here, it's not the more we extend this to this man even when they the reason why he would hire someone to help is because he's feeling not because he's thinking that that So, I think that's that's now where now we take the conversation from policy to implementation and say can we allow everybody in the in society to to really understand that even this man has been given off 2 weeks because his wife is taking care of someone so he needs to take care. And we always say the person who does care is actually more vulnerable than the person who needs care.

[00:37:13]And and and if you look at it, women get postpartum depression, they get child bringing up depression, they get taking care of the other depression. Why?

[00:37:22]Because they actually even when you take care of a sick person you actually get sicker than So, if people would recognize that and so offer a solution to this person who is taking care that emotionally, socially, you are supported, then care becomes something that we all because we have to live with care. We can't There's no way we will the world will not need care. Yeah. And actually, let me just say there are things you cannot pay for.

[00:37:48]I would pay for a help to assist my uh wife take care of the mom.

[00:37:55]But you cannot pay for that emotional thing she's going through. You get?

[00:38:01]You that one you cannot pay for that.

[00:38:04]You'll still need to be there. You'll still need to do something about it.

[00:38:08]That one you cannot pay for. Because as much as now you've reduced her maybe physical roles that she'll do, there's an emotional uh thing that she's going through or a mental something that she's going through that you cannot pay for. Money can't pay for that. So, which is the hardest to shift? Is it awareness? Is it willingness?

[00:38:30]Is it systems?

[00:38:32]Which Which one is the hardest to shift mindset when it comes to >> Awareness? Okay, I think to to to own it.

[00:38:41]Yeah, it's it's it's our whole responsibility actually.

[00:38:45]It's the way you are seeing it's it's helping. It's Helping is is is kidogo. I'm just coming to assist.

[00:38:53]Just there, but if it's something I don't need to be told to do.

[00:38:57]You you you own it. The major waiting to be told to do something it becomes like you're being supervised.

[00:39:04]So, yeah, we need to own it.

[00:39:07]Yeah.

[00:39:09]Peter.

[00:39:10]Willingness, awareness, systems.

[00:39:14]I think I'll say systems, but not not like the the institutional system. It's all systems, cultural systems, religious systems. Because people will a lot of people will want to do care, but they will fear, you know, repercussion from society. Some will not know how to do it. Some will be told by religion not to do it. Some will not find the right space to do it like I said structurally.

[00:39:40]But I think overall even cuz a lot of people want to do care, but they don't know how.

[00:39:47]They they they they are lost in how how can Cuz if you I'm sure at the space of a husband and a wife in their bedroom, they they do hug and say, "Hey, my baby, you did a lot of things today." But the moment we leave that door, the whole thing changes. So, there it's all. There's The The easiest to change is structures and systems. Yeah. You can put in our washing space. You can do all these adverts. You can also create awareness, it happens.

[00:40:19]But the the innate thing and so for them to will to change, then that's where now up on the book of for both men and women because sometimes men will take over our role supportive and be very nice and the people who will ridicule them and actually their own women.

[00:40:37]I sometimes I would stay home for a weekend and extend 2 days and then the first question that I would be asked is Why don't you want to seek your own way?

[00:40:48]You don't have anywhere to go.

[00:40:51]>> [laughter] >> So so it's it's not a one-day, one-week, one-generation conversation because I'm sure people have tried to change this for a while.

[00:41:00]Yeah. But but the moment we are able to recognize is the first step. The moment we are able to reward is important. The moment we are able to redistribute some of the roles it's important and so yeah, it's a Yeah, they say experience is the is the best teacher.

[00:41:19]It is would that be the thing that everybody has to go through to appreciate care in the sense that when your mom is sick, it's almost natural that your wife, your sister your aunt will come and take that place.

[00:41:34]But when it's the man who is unwell in that context of health will that change that mindset cuz you see that the things that a woman cannot do with a bedridden man. Your father you did it. The things you cannot do. So does experience being in that moment shift how we think as men, how you guys think? I think just having more of these conversations helps.

[00:42:04]Having these real-life stories of of how things work, things play out, some don't work.

[00:42:13]There are things that you try that don't work. But I think we need to tell more of these stories and be open enough to share our vulnerable moments.

[00:42:22]You know, uh the moments that we failed, the moments that we felt like we we we couldn't do it, you know, the moments that we felt that we we broke down, you know, uh I think it's normalizing these conversations and having more of of these conversations so that we learn from each other. Uh because what might work for me might not necessarily work for for you. Uh like for you what you're basically saying like when it's the man who's unwell and it's the lady who ought to take care of of him.

[00:42:55]Would that lady be my wife? Would that lady be my daughter? Would that lady be Your mother? my mother?

[00:43:02]How does that work? Yeah. You know?

[00:43:07]Because I think there there's there's a limit where my daughter can take care of me.

[00:43:12]There's a place where my mom and can come and support.

[00:43:16]And there's also a place where I'm now my wife would So it's not at your generic one fits all. No, it's not a silver bullet. It is uh I think circumstance by circum- issue by issue, you know, and how best we can maneuver through that situation. Yeah.

[00:43:35]Yeah, but we need to have these conversations more.

[00:43:38]Yeah, we really do. that, yeah. Like even my personal experience, like what we were saying about paternity leave, what I did with those 2 weeks.

[00:43:46]>> [laughter] >> Mhm. But yeah, after party And you could see at home she's drained.

[00:43:52]Mhm.

[00:43:53]There are some levels of postpartum.

[00:43:57]So when you go home, it's it's it's stressful. She's not happy. The house becomes cold. It's it's it's chaotic. So if you can tell somebody else probably who's just getting married they're about to have a baby. Let's have those conversations. Tell him, yes, you're going to go through this and this and this. So, judging from my experience also be there for your wife when this happens. Do this, do this, do this.

[00:44:22]Let's talk about it. And and even show like men who are doing it well, they need to be showcased more.

[00:44:30]They need to be showcased more. Why?

[00:44:31]Because people learn more from like my role model is doing ABCD.

[00:44:37]So, I can I can do the same.

[00:44:40]Other than us just, you know, trying to talk like it's a story, it's a book thing. You need to know like you are meant to do these little things that you are supposed to do. You know?

[00:44:49]But then, you don't see anybody doing it. Society has to >> [laughter] >> Because when we talk about care, sometimes when we talk about care, we we really minimalize care to this is what we want to help our women, to support them.

[00:45:09]And that's okay.

[00:45:10]But then, we should realize that care comes with a lot more than just us changing, switching roles.

[00:45:19]To to more invisible things that we don't talk about.

[00:45:24]When you go to those labor labor wards nowadays some of them, some hospitals have like a cot which is like a bed.

[00:45:33]Yes. For women to sleep there.

[00:45:36]For the mother. They are not They are not two beds.

[00:45:39]It's only one.

[00:45:41]For the mother.

[00:45:43]You know? But mostly also I'm saying the bed is only always one for the for the mother and like a small one for for the child. But there are actually hospitals that have an extra one where the dad can now can actually sleep to support. But how many of us were not CC?

[00:46:04]to tell By the way But then back a bit is not comfortable for the last two.

[00:46:19]It's a horrible >> you mean it's not comfortable for the man?

[00:46:23]Let me tell you things switch and this is where society changes. Things switch when men are in the vulnerable positions that women have always been in.

[00:46:32]That's when men realize oh This has been bad.

[00:46:36]>> [clears throat] >> I am not going to We are going to change the law.

[00:46:40]Yeah. We are going to change if >> [laughter] >> Think about the way we things like we donated cost of condoms uh cigarettes It's every time men feel vulnerable.

[00:46:54]And they realize women have been in this space for so long and they've been so vulnerable.

[00:46:58]But men can't take an hour of vulnerability when women take 10 hours of then the law changes. And that's the way society works.

[00:47:09]Even for the nurses eh? And maybe it's structured that's why I did that when For a nurse maybe your wife has given birth.

[00:47:23]>> [laughter] >> But flip it flip it to it is the man who's unwell and the woman sits by there.

[00:47:35]She's caring. She's caring.

[00:47:38]Think about it.

[00:47:41]That picture doesn't look bad. It looks okay because it's the wife supporting the You have. I think that's a perception that you men have because when I see like one time one of my friends was unwell and the husband was there and she took a picture of him he was he was half asleep and she was on the hospital bed and I saw that I was like aw.

[00:48:12]So women actually appreciate it when you guys do it. So that perception you have in your mind take it out.

[00:48:18]>> that's you. Take it out of your Let me let me send you let me let me Even even when you look at those comments >> That was a good aw. Hiya. [laughter] Did did the wife the what did the wife take a photo?

[00:48:30]Yeah but I can make up at my WhatsApp group here lady friends to say my >> it on her stories. She actually No as in not stories stories okay. Social media stories that's good. That's aw but in the group of Yianni the inner circle for the ladies did she send that photo to celebrate the husband look at my husband he's doing such an amazing job.

[00:48:53]>> let me tell you I doubt it. Let me let me let me tell you. When women sit and and talk about the the men who actually show up >> Mhm.

[00:49:02]It it's a conversation that is always there and we applaud you guys. It's just that you're not in the in that space so you wouldn't know. You you wouldn't know and until I said that my dad did A B C D until I keep saying it out in public you wouldn't know.

[00:49:22]>> [laughter] >> Let me tell you something. Exactly what you are doing.

[00:49:27]If I'm having a drink with my boys Mhm.

[00:49:30]And this should not be taken with my wife I hope you are not watching. If if if I'm having a drink with my boys and I have a girl I'll invite her she will sit the whole night sitting with me and listening to because this is my girl. You see?

[00:49:48]But if women are having a women conversation they don't even invite their two boys or their husbands. But why are you having two girls and two boys?

[00:49:57]>> [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> So so men men actually two things mesmerize men.

[00:50:17]Uh pregnancy and giving birth. Men cannot understand And that. They wish they would understand that.

[00:50:23]Second thing, men are mesmerized by the reason why they are always kicked out of women spaces when women are talking.

[00:50:30]Where we end up talking to our friends, what you talking about?

[00:50:33]They always wonder And that's why they would say The only thing you speak about is bad things about us. You don't praise us in those You make assumptions.

[00:50:44]You make assumptions. Actually, as we try to normalize this conversation, as as we try to even bring more male allies and grow more male more male allies, even for you ladies, I think it's a challenge for you guys.

[00:50:57]Celebrate those good ones.

[00:50:59]Celebrate them.

[00:51:00]Make noise about them.

[00:51:02]Not just during Father's Day and nini, make noise. Random days to appreciate.

[00:51:08]It goes a long way. And I think even for us is is to to elevate to celebrate, to showcase the good men.

[00:51:17]The men who are supporting, the men who are doing those good things that we want to do, those men that are called simps.

[00:51:25]Everyday men, let's celebrate them. So that we can raise others because I know there are many. But some are scared But if they see one, two, three to talk and loudly about what they are doing you know, they'll get confidence to even do more. So as we close what are those uh three things that you can say that that marry into recognizing care work and especially for those who who carry it out in your homes.

[00:51:57]For me I'd say presence.

[00:52:00]Being there. I mean that's all that it takes sometimes.

[00:52:04]Uh like my personal example, sometimes I was not there and it cost a lot of emotional damage.

[00:52:12]So yes, presence.

[00:52:22]>> [laughter] >> Then you take the kid back. No, be present.

[00:52:27]Yeah.

[00:52:28]I think for me is intentional.

[00:52:30]Uh recognizing that I need to be intentional even in in celebrating, in acknowledging those small things that my wife does, those small things that my mom and my sister, you know, like I'm a picker chocolate in money, you know.

[00:52:46]Thank you. The food was good.

[00:52:48]Uh I didn't pick you a shot passing, you know, thank you.

[00:52:52]You know, I look good because you did.

[00:52:54]You know, we assume that, you know, so you assume the role you have to so you don't need to so those things you only being intentional on recognizing that you need to vocalize it and say I sent it even however small it is, but thank you. Or even thank you for going to Zambia beautiful children. Just that.

[00:53:16]Thank you.

[00:53:25]I think for me I am into willingness and I'm willing to recognize that women go through a lot. The 70% the four extra hours.

[00:53:38]Just a willingness to recognize that that happens.

[00:53:42]For me is key and from my mother to my wife to my girlfriend to my sisters Your wife and girlfriend.

[00:53:51]Kila after to my past to every your willingness yako [clears throat] when my demo on a good supporting yard after you know we talk about them and I could cuz sometimes when we talk about care your girlfriend >> Sometimes when we talk about care we don't talk about care conventional care but care goes even to By the way, that's when you are in a waiter Charlie you know what I mean So willingness to recognize that women are actually doing so much to make your vulnerability feel less It's the key.

[00:54:34]And I I also recognize the men who actually show up, the men who take on that unpaid care and not just helping but being present, being willing, being aware and and we thank Better for Kenya for this conversation because it is critical male allyship is a critical lever to have that shift to to recognize what care work looks like and to bring us all together. So until the next one my name is Mashirima Kapombe. Goodbye.

[00:55:09]Yeah.

[00:55:11]Eh. wall and shatter Eh.