Caller CANNOT Control themselves when talking Racism || JOVAN DEBATES

[00:00:09]Uh, coming up next to stream, we have Ryan calling from Texas. Ryan is calling to talk about topic number three, systemic racism and white privilege being real. Ryan, if you can hear me, please provide me with your age and pronouns.

[00:00:22]>> I am 28 and it's going to be he him.

[00:00:25]>> All right. Now, Ryan, your mic is coming through pretty muffled. Are you like on a headpiece or something?

[00:00:31]>> Uh, actually, let me see. It's my speaker. Does it sound better?

[00:00:34]>> That does sound better. Yes. Um, and Ryan, just because I could hear a little bit of wind and stuff. You're not driving, are you?

[00:00:42]>> No, I am sitting in a truck, but it's it's parked.

[00:00:44]>> Okay, cool, cool, cool. Uh, all right, Ryan. Uh, I believe systemic racism and white privilege are real. Do you disagree with that statement, and if so, why?

[00:00:54]I disagree, but it does depend on like exactly what you're defining as systemic racism. So, uh before I delve very deeply into it, what would you what prerequisite would you have to apply to have it to be systemic racism versus just individual racism?

[00:01:11]>> Well, I don't believe in individual racism. I believe all racism is systemic.

[00:01:18]as in well I guess explain the systemic side because my my im immediate idea of what systemic racism would be would be a system in place that is racially motivated. Um but obviously what you're implying on that is probably heavily deviating from what I'm assuming.

[00:01:36]>> Yeah. I would just say that systemic racism is a system in which one race oppresses another race for political, social, or economic gain.

[00:01:45]So what is the system I guess is where my catch is.

[00:01:50]>> What the system would just describe anything that any like um uh institution that runs different things in this country. So like the political system would be a system, the education system, the criminal justice system, the health care system. Those are all systems.

[00:02:06]They're just sort of like frameworks.

[00:02:09]Well, and how does that negate the idea of individual racism? Because I mean, I could individual racism I I don't believe individual racism is a thing. I believe individuals can be racially racially discriminatory, >> but racism I believe to be a structure of power and something that does have an influence on larger society as a whole.

[00:02:32]I believe individual racism is just a just sort of a tool white supremacy uses in order to legitimize itself.

[00:02:42]>> So I mean but I guess you're slicing what many would just count as racism into two like separate identified categories then. I mean, what what definition are you using for someone who just individually themselves is uh just actually racist towards another person based off of raceing?

[00:03:04]>> If they are part of these, if they are part of the race that holds systemic power, they would be engaging in racism.

[00:03:10]If they are not, they would be racially racially discriminatory.

[00:03:15]You can discriminate anyone you want based on any feature. So, they would be discriminating based on race. But in order to be racist and engage in a system of racism, there has to be some level of uh institutional power.

[00:03:27]>> Should those be looked at and reacted to at the same level? Are you viewing those as equal equals?

[00:03:33]>> Not even remotely. Most people that are just racially discriminator person who >> like is being extremely racist and calling slurs to a Chinese person that is eons lower on severity scale than if a white person were to be racist towards a black person is what you're saying.

[00:03:51]>> Yes. Because black people don't hold institutional power against Asian people.

[00:03:56]>> Okay. So the prerequisite is institutional power generally to white people. Um, what like percentage of the institution do you have to own to claim that ownership of having racial institutional power?

[00:04:13]>> Uh, I don't know that there's a direct number. That would be like asking me how much sand do I how many grains of sand do I need in a pile before it becomes a pile of sand?

[00:04:21]>> I don't think there's some I don't think >> 40% uh nonwhite people in a governance.

[00:04:28]Would that still count as >> if the system is still the system is still engaging in a way that promotes disparities between black and white people to where white people receive like the benefits of that society then it wouldn't matter how many black people are in charge if the system is not changed.

[00:04:45]>> So I mean you're highlighting promotion in that. So you are recognizing that there's not like any direct like identifiable law or system in place imposed by any governance that is act directly doing this. So what >> systemic racism doesn't talk about there being like specific laws or policies. It looks at the disparities created by the system oftent times through laws or policies that don't have any direct uh that don't uh claim to have any direct uh uh racial biases within them.

[00:05:16]>> Okay. So it's just a causal effect of something that could cause a racial uh dis uh what would you call that? Um, I guess discrepancy >> disparity.

[00:05:29]>> Disparity is the word I was looking for.

[00:05:31]Disparity between the claimed race and power and then any other race that is outside of that. My main issue with that is like that's just imposs like it's impossible to track and and nail it down. You know, it's like if there is something >> Well, >> we literally have track it in the eyes of race only and it could socio.

[00:06:01]>> Brian, do you think that when we look at these things that we're not factoring out other like other cohorts or other confounding things that would be increasing to this?

[00:06:14]Because one of the problems you're when we're talking about like like oh what if we factor in economics? Well, then you have to look at like why black people, for instance, tend to have significantly lower wealth than white people. And then it's we're right back to systemic racism.

[00:06:29]>> Well, previous systemic racism that was re removed, I wouldn't say necessarily remediated to put them back up at the same equal level, which I'm against. Um, but just because >> against policies that would put black people and white people on equal playing field. No, I'm against policies that would if there is a uh if there was a policy that existed before that put a certain group uh uh absent of race, anything just in any way behind another group. I'm not pro like artificially pulling those people up to essentially make them economically the same or have the same >> uh you're saying the government would have >> you're saying let me let me ask you you're saying the government right >> um so we'll talk about specifically the government because we're talking about laws and policies would not have some sort of duty or obligation to fix an issue that it systemically caused.

[00:07:32]No, I mean you can fix it to for so me I'm I'm >> How would you fix it without specific laws or policies?

[00:07:38]>> You would remove what what would cause the the gap in the first place. So I mean because >> Okay, hold on. Hold on. Run an experiment with me. Hold on. Run a racist policate on this and then I can we can run the I don't I don't need you to. I the the thought experiment is what's going to help the elaboration.

[00:07:57]There was no law on the books in most places that said black people couldn't be hired. There were just a bunch of racist white people who didn't want to hire them. How do you fix that issue without a law? Slavery wasn't abolished.

[00:08:11]So you could say that there was aification of what caused that? Now is there going to be compounding effects post that? I'm not talking about slavery was abolished.

[00:08:20]>> I'm not talking about slavery.

[00:08:21]>> Yeah. But what caused that to happen in the first place? What caused that post thing? Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're Hold on. Please just listen to Listen to what I'm saying. You said we should not implement laws to fix these things. We should just get rid of the things that are >> fix them.

[00:08:36]>> No, I said you shouldn't rectify things with the goal to pull it as equal to another race group cuz that's never going to work. It's never going to be equal and it's going to be too artificial.

[00:08:47]>> Exactly. Uh that's there's no legitimate way to ever actually do that that has cuz the idea and the goal which I mean I'm not against the idea and the goal.

[00:08:56]Like if I um you know steal $1,000 from you remediating that back to you it' be giving either equal value of $1,000 or $1,000 back to you. That makes complete sense. But if your comparison in the system is these people have X, Y, and Z, these people need to have the same thing. Well, there's too many compounding factors that caused this one group to happen.

[00:09:21]>> Hold on. The only way to replicate that right we're right back to the question I was trying to ask you.

[00:09:28]>> When it came to hiring practices, >> white people would not hire black people. Not because there were laws on the books saying that they couldn't.

[00:09:37]>> They just didn't want to.

[00:09:39]>> So, how do we rectify >> laws now that that prevent that from happening?

[00:09:45]Jacob or Ryan, sorry. Ryan, you're not engaging. Sorry, Chad's talking about somebody named Jacob. I don't know who the [ __ ] Chad is talking about. Ryan, you're not engaging. What I'm asking you when we No, no, no. I need you to hold on. No, no, no. Ryan, I need that literally fixing the problem. Ryan, >> I need you to directly engage. Let's make a Ryan. I don't Ryan, I don't know why you're talking right now. Joan Ryan, I don't know why you're talking, >> if you want to get muted, I'll mute you.

[00:10:10]I don't know why you're talking right now. What I'm trying to ask a question.

[00:10:13]Hey, Jovon.

[00:10:14]>> Okay, I gave you a warning. Now you're muted. I gave you a warning and now you're muted. So, I'm going to keep talking.

[00:10:22]So, I'm going to ask my question again, and I want you to actually engage with the question I'm asking you and not some mythical question you think I'm asking.

[00:10:31]When we look at disparities in hiring practices and we saw that black people were not getting hired at a rate much more significant than white people and there was no law on the books saying white people had to be hired over black people. How do you fix that issue? There is no law to resend.

[00:10:55]So, how do you fix that issue if there is no law to resend? I want an answer to that question, Ryan. If you try to answer another question, I'm going to mute you again and ask the question I was asking in the first place.

[00:11:10]So, the beep you heard, that beep was you being unmuted. So, please answer the question I asked you.

[00:11:17]>> Wait, sorry, I put you back on, speaker.

[00:11:18]Um, there is no way to fix that legally.

[00:11:22]It's impossible. It's statistically impossible. So the way that we can do is remove >> I'm sorry.

[00:11:28]>> There's no way that you can >> there is no way that you can implement some type of overarching governmental mandate law you would you would want to do to remediate that one to one. It's impossible. And in fact it's either going to be extremely abused or it's going to serve I'm sorry that's not the question that I asked you. I asked you, "What do you mean by it's not legal?"

[00:11:56]You said, "There's no way to do this legally."

[00:11:59]>> Well, I'm sorry. I meant uh uh governmentally.

[00:12:03]>> Great.

[00:12:04]>> There's no way to do this on a policy level to help even out those disparities.

[00:12:11]>> Yes. Because >> the goal So then back to the question I asked you, how do you fix it?

[00:12:20]You make a law to prevent people from hiring or from discriminating based on race and hiring >> which we've done.

[00:12:28]>> There are legal ways to fix it.

[00:12:31]>> It's not fixing it's not fixing in the way that you are saying remediating the problem because you already identified that that is not the solution that I identified the solution is. You can only make it to where the opportunities are equal. You cannot remediate solution based. You can only remediate what opportunities are being removed. Okay, black people are still hired significantly less than white their white counterparts even with the same resumes just with different names. Now, how do we fix this issue? Cuz what you claimed is that >> I I'm going to finish my sentence.

[00:13:06]What you claimed was, oh, in order to fix this, we have to implement a law that implements fair hiring. Yet, it's still happening. So, how do we fix this disparity that still exists?

[00:13:20]>> Is it is the problem you're identifying racism or is the problem you're identifying just candidates are going to be picked at a higher rate based on closer to what a someone who is hiring is going to relate to more. And that's like if you have an entirely blackowned business, I guarantee the exact same >> I feel like you've missed what I've said. White applicants did not remotely you you 100% did cuz you pivoted to something else.

[00:13:52]>> We know currently right now I don't know why you're I don't know why you're trying to step in. I think maybe you want to be dishonest here. But if you want to have a good faith conversation, >> that's not how it works. So we know >> how is that bad faith >> based on I >> how is it bad faith for you to pip to move the topic to something else then when I try to get back on topic you interrupt me. How is that bad faith?

[00:14:15]>> Oh I wonder why >> the exact same topic. I don't know how moving the top >> the same topic.

[00:14:20]>> Me asking how is that evidence of racism is not aligning with the exact topic we're debating.

[00:14:26]>> Yeah that's not what you did. What you did was move it to what you did. No, what you did was go, "Oh, but what about like predominantly black businesses that hire predominantly black people?" which wasn't what which when I was telling you about was the fact that when all other factors are equal, the thing you didn't want to engage with the fact that when all other factors are equal and we look at uh resumes and we look at white résumés with or resumes with names that t typically sound white and rums with names that typically sound black, white people get called back for interviews and hired at a rate of 36% more than their black counterparts. How do we fix this disparity?

[00:15:10]Well, obviously, okay, again, the only policy level that you can do is preventing or is making a law where it's illegal to discriminate. So, obviously, if that still exists, >> you >> But the problem is, how do you prove that someone is legitimately discriminating based off of race? It's pretty tough thing to do. So, it's not necessarily something you quality level fix. Ryan, if I have two resumes that are exactly the same and the only thing that is different >> like >> and the only thing that is different is one name sounds traditionally white and the other sounds traditionally black.

[00:15:45]You're going well, we have no clue what the reason one might be picked over the other.

[00:15:49]>> So, okay, explain to me then. Okay, so I'm I am someone who's hiring.

[00:15:55]I get two exactly identical resumes word for word besides the name.

[00:16:03]How is that even an appropriate test sample? Like that's statistically impossible in a natural setting to occur as you're trying to imitate.

[00:16:12]>> How does that so is it the same hirer?

[00:16:15]Is it are they going to multiple people?

[00:16:17]Like if you would you would do it through a a double blind study traditionally like you would give you would give rumés out to to different people and see which résumés get called back. You make it in the same positions to a bunch of different jobs in the same positions typ what what uh the biggest study was used uh looked at five I'm sorry looked at 55,000 applications.

[00:16:45]They had a sample size of 55,000 applications and found again 36% more call backs and hiring for the white sounding applicants than the black sounding applicants.

[00:17:02]>> But it's not going to the same like hiring place like it's just >> because there would be no way because there would be no way to get a get a sample if you did that.

[00:17:12]>> Well, that'd be the only way to truly test it. Uh, >> no it wouldn't.

[00:17:16]>> And >> that's a silly thing to say.

[00:17:18]>> Absolutely. Only imagine that you say that I don't know how studies work.

[00:17:23]>> I mean, I'm just saying like the perfect replication of that would have be having the exact same two people walk in, one of a different race and one with a different name, and the person who is more white appearing and has a white name would be called back. Then you go, okay, then that's only race that's determining this. Other than that, if you're going to different companies, >> there's there's no way that you can like justifiably say, "Oh, 100% this is just race-based because every single company's going to have different hiring policies. Every single company is going to have a different type of position. It could be the exact same position. It's going to have different prerequisites, different I don't know if I don't know if you're just trying to run away from addressing the fact that we've re replicated this study time and time again. Hey, listen to me, man. This one study% I don't know why you're speaking right now. Hiring people are >> I don't know why you're speaking.

[00:18:14]>> Hiring practices are racist. I don't know why you're talking. So now you're muted. I don't know why when I started talking you decided it was now your turn to talk.

[00:18:24]That's embarrassing.

[00:18:27]Kind of weird.

[00:18:30]Kind of weird.

[00:18:33]Okay, so I'm going to speak now uninterrupted because you're muted. So one, there is not just one study that has done this. This has been done and replicated time and time again. Two, there are two main approaches to this study. One of which is sending the same resume to the same company and noticing the hiring trends. The other is sending their resumes to companies that have the same type of jobs posted.

[00:19:01]Three, again, I'm just going to repeat the first one.

[00:19:06][ __ ] multiple studies done here. And four, peer review has found that these the methodology used in these studies is very accurate. Now, unless you can provide me some sort of academic source that's been peer-reviewed that discredits the meta analysis that we've we have on all of this, which you're not going to find.

[00:19:27]All you're sitting here is saying, "Well, I don't like the methodology."

[00:19:30]when you haven't looked at the methodology because you've not read the study.

[00:19:36]So, this is nonsense.

[00:19:38]So, I'll unmute you again. Try to stop interrupting.

[00:19:42]Seems weird that you can't control yourself.

[00:19:46]>> Thank you. I appreciate it. I love debating you, man. This is this it's very enjoyable.

[00:19:52]>> Is this a debate? You haven't really provided an argument.

[00:19:56]>> Or let me rephrase that. You haven't grounded your argument in anything. You just keep saying trust me, bro.

[00:20:01]>> No, I'm just I am >> I've grounded my argument.

[00:20:03]>> No, you were saying trust me.

[00:20:05]>> I'm sorry, Ryan. I'm sorry, Ryan. I offer up a study. It's called meta analysis of field experiments show no change in racial discrimination.

[00:20:12]>> Hold up. I'm going to put you on mute real quick because I don't need bad faith actors. See you, Ryan.

[00:20:23]>> Uh, I'm going to put a note in Ryan's call thing. Uh, he owes a waste my time tax if he ever calls back.

[00:20:35]for wasting my time.

[00:20:43]So if Ryan ever decides to talk to all back, he owes a waste of time tax.

[00:20:49]So anyway, as I was saying, I have actual sources for what I'm talking about. This uh would specifically be meta analysis of field experiments shows no change in racial discrimination and hiring over time. Uh this is a meta analysis uh taking into account litany of studies using uh about 55,842 applicants.

[00:21:10]So I can provide evidence for what I'm claiming. Ryan's evidence was trust me bro. I don't do trust me bro.

[00:21:21]Just don't do that.

[00:21:23]It's not too fun in a debate. I like factual evidence.

[00:21:31]Thank you all for watching this video.

[00:21:33]If you don't know me, I'm Jovon Bradley.

[00:21:34]I'm a leftist content creator who does debates, political commentary, gaming, and more. If this is your first video, thanks for sticking to the end, and I hope you subscribe. Thank you to all my YouTube members. Your continued support helps me create as much as I can.

[00:21:47]Consider joining. A membership starts at $2.99 and gets you access to early video drops, our community Minecraft server, and our community Discord where we host roundt discussions, guest lectures from creators of all kinds, and our monthly book club. Shout out to my tier 4 members who go above and beyond to help keep my content as accessible and regular as it currently is. They're on the screen now. Your support goes a long way in helping me to continue the fight for equity, justice, and education.

[00:22:13]Thank you for watching, and remember to stay educated.