- The Argument That Changed an Atheist's Perspective| @smiletojannah visitor lady Speakers Corner

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]Okay, the inference is no. Inference is wrong.

[00:00:04]So when it comes to everything else, we say you know what? It doesn't make sense.

[00:00:08]The world cannot come by itself. It doesn't make sense. Look at the objective design that we see.

[00:00:16]Butterflies.

[00:00:18]Even when you look at the arrangement of seeds within the sunflower.

[00:00:22]Even when you look at the leaves on a stem. They follow either Fibonacci sequence or the golden ratio, which is objective design. Not design that we conjure up in our heads.

[00:00:34]Now objective design requires a designer.

[00:00:37]I would have thought that that's a logical conclusion. If somebody goes no.

[00:00:43]What do you think makes more sense?

[00:00:45]Design requires a designer or design happens with a one in a billion chance of by itself over billions of which makes the most sense to you?

[00:00:55]I mean it's a very difficult question because like we are saying that it's design. I mean we we see we can see the patterns, but there's no physical evidence that actually a pattern. But I gave you the physical evidence, right? Yeah, of course. But I mean it's a interpretation of itself. No, because yeah. I think that there is no designer, but it's it's mostly like the evolution kind of stuff. I mean the sunflower has a specific kind of seed arrangement.

[00:01:37]In natural causes like for example if a sunflower doesn't have a specific arrangement of seeds, maybe it wouldn't turn to the sun when the sun Yeah, yeah. No, no. I I got what you're saying. Let's Let's roll with that.

[00:02:00]So you might make the argument that one particular thing came by chance. Yeah?

[00:02:06]But then the sunflower is part of a greater ecosystem.

[00:02:11]There are animals that only eat the sunflower that require the sunflower for their existence. And they have the bacteria in their stomach to digest that. Right? Then they've got the teeth.

[00:02:22]For example, a lion is designed to eat meat. He's got canines. Right? He's got incisors. But when you look at for example a sheep, they've got flat teeth.

[00:02:33]Their teeth are not designed nor do they have the bacteria within their stomach to digest the meat. So when you start now compounding the chances, so the sunflower, then it's a relation with the animals around them, then the carnivores related to the herbivores linked to the sunflower, also linked to the conditions of planet Earth, that the level of oxygen and nitrogen because the nitrogen is higher than the oxygen, right? And then you've got because the oxygen, do you know where the ox majority of the oxygen comes from on planet Earth?

[00:03:07]No.

[00:03:08]No, no, no. It actually comes from these micro micro beings that are actually on the surface of the water.

[00:03:18]Yeah. So that's where it comes from. Now those small tiny tiny little things. Now how is it that they are enough that they are producing the oxygen enough for the sunflower to survive? That it's enough for the creatures that eat it that are then eaten by the others and it's all an all intricate system and they then in turn have the organs. They have the organ systems. Then they have the org they have the cells which have the organelles which then have the the the DNA that then have the genes then have the the atom. Yeah? That then have the protons that then have the neutrons that then have the quarks that then have the neutrinos. Do you see? Like maybe a person might think you know what? Maybe one thing came by chance. But when you compound this chance, then you've got the likes of physicist.

[00:04:11]I think he's a physicist, Paul Davies.

[00:04:13]He says that the probability of even our planet being the way it is to come the way it is is like one in 10 to the power 30.

[00:04:23]Many others have said many many others have said more more than that. Yeah? But the point is that it's so infinitesimal.

[00:04:33]Yeah? That we do not live our life like this. For example, there is a chance that we can be standing in the park and you know, five pigeons can you know, come together and do a giant duke on us. Yeah? A nuke.

[00:04:50]But we don't live our life like that.

[00:04:52]There is a possibility that when you cross the road that even if the green man is there that a a car can still run into you, but you don't live your life like that. But when it comes to religion, I say we clutch to the infinitesimal over the bigger body of evidence. And I'm saying if we follow the same criteria of evidence, we would be more fair and we would say it the chance of a creator is more because of our general thinking when it comes to everything else.

[00:05:22]And even if I was to take your point of evolution, we have no issue with that. Evolution and Big Bang, they're mechanisms.

[00:05:32]God is a creator of mechanisms.

[00:05:35]So we don't believe that they contradict each other. You can have Big Bang. You can have gravity. You can have evolution. They are mechanisms, but that still asks the question, where did the mechanism come from?

[00:05:46]Why was the mechanism enough that the sunflowers were able to grow and turn to the sunlight like you've said that they are in the right places at the right time for the right creatures. The creatures that require that level of nutrients, etc. And that's why I would say that the question of God still remains.

[00:06:06]Yes, but it's I think Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Be honest.

[00:06:11]One of those many theories. I mean you can you can see say maybe that the Big Bang comes from from a black hole or from God, I don't know.

[00:06:28]I don't know.

[00:06:29]I I don't know that, but I still think that God didn't create the Big Bang. So thanks to the Big Bang we came from the Big Bang and etc. And the sunflower turns from turns to the sun thanks to what came before. Yeah.

[00:06:46]Would you would you say that we exist?

[00:06:51]And would you accept that there are two types of existence, dependent and independent?

[00:07:01]So everything can be classified into two forms of existences, either dependent or independent.

[00:07:08]Or do you think that there's another form of creation?

[00:07:13]Or do you think that there's an exception to this?

[00:07:25]No problem. But just like there are too many programs on Netflix, it doesn't mean that we are paralyzed in fear, right? We still go through them. There's so many choices in life, especially now.

[00:07:37]I mean Dave Chappelle said that the children nowadays they can go home and watch any movie ever made like that.

[00:07:45]Yeah? It's literally at your fingertips.

[00:07:47]But that doesn't mean that we're at home paralyzed with choice. We still make choice. Yeah? We still go through them.

[00:07:54]But I still don't have a favorite film.

[00:07:59]Do you think you will never have a favorite film? Yes, I don't think I will. Because there are too many things to watch. I I cannot watch physically every film. So I won't have a favorite one. Absolutely. We'll we'll come to that example. It's a good example. Yeah? But you said I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Yeah? So if there is existence and there are two forms of existence, either dependent and independent, and us and the universe are dependent, then the question would arise by definition.

[00:08:35]If we are dependent, the universe is dependent, dependent upon what?

[00:08:42]It has to be by definition dependent on something, right? Fantastic. And that thing we're dealing now with a deductively deductively purely deductively.

[00:08:55]Then that thing is is that thing dependent on something, dependent or independent?

[00:09:06]Now there's two options now.

[00:09:07]Either it goes on forever, dependent dependent dependent dependent, or there has to be an end to that chain.

[00:09:15]Which would mean that there is an independent end to that chain.

[00:09:20]Which do you think is coherent?

[00:09:22]I think that it should be going on forever because our universe is purely dependent on something.

[00:09:32]On the the thing that came before.

[00:09:35]I think it should be a continuous But think about what you're saying though. Let's deep this. Yeah? So you're saying we're dependent. Universe dependent.

[00:09:48]Now dependent on dependent on dependent on dependent.

[00:09:54]How can something dependent exist by itself without an independent thing?

[00:09:59]Because it depends on something that depended before or something. Yes.

[00:10:05]But surely there has to be an end to that chain.

[00:10:08]Because by the firstly by definition a dependent thing for its survival needs to rely on something, right?

[00:10:14]>> We don't have a material thing that is independent right now, so why should be an independent thing back in the days, you So you you're confusing two things.

[00:10:25]You're You're confusing inductive with deductive, yeah? Inductively you're right that we're going by our observation. That's why I made the clarification of deductive. Cuz we don't know, like you said, universe is dependent on this that and that. We've gone down the line and we can't observe that.

[00:10:43]So that's why it's a deductive argument.

[00:10:45]But now deductively we're saying surely something which is dependent has to rely on something independent to exist.

[00:10:54]Otherwise it becomes incoherent and illogical. It doesn't make sense.

[00:11:00]Because something by definition Let me give you an example.

[00:11:04]If you see a mobile If I If I threw the mobile phone on the floor and you ask me, "Why did you throw on the floor?" I said, "Because I asked him."

[00:11:14]And then he asked him.

[00:11:16]Then he asked him.

[00:11:18]Then he asked him.

[00:11:19]Then he asked him. We can keep going going going going going and you become tired.

[00:11:25]You have to conclude the end of that chain there was somebody that said, "Throw the phone."

[00:11:32]Otherwise the fact that the phone has been thrown doesn't make sense. Why was it thrown?

[00:11:39]If the condition was that I will throw it if somebody tells me to throw it. So for something to be dependent and survive they have to get that from an independent thing. Otherwise the chain can't start. You can't start the chain off from a dependent thing, sorry. From a dependent thing. Yeah? Because let's just say the first thing was dependent.

[00:12:03]By definition, dependent on what?

[00:12:06]But still if you ask him if you ask him if you ask him etc. Yeah. You have You go at the end of the chain. Yes.

[00:12:15]This is a you know physical example still. Yes.

[00:12:22]It's not a what I meant.

[00:12:37]Basically it's it's still a physical thing because we are thinking with the the idea of time.

[00:12:44]So the space. But both are physical, right?

[00:12:48]Yeah, but this experiment it's a That's physical. The example.

[00:12:52]>> Like the example is still physical. Yes.

[00:12:54]So why And the universe is also physical. Yeah.

[00:12:57]Dependent on physical. So why my example wasn't good?

[00:13:02]Which one?

[00:13:03]If we don't have an independent here on Earth Yes.

[00:13:07]why we shouldn't we should have an independent thing Okay, so so that means that you are restricted to So you're saying that the only thing is the law that works on this planet, right?

[00:13:24]Is that Is that the point that you're saying?

[00:13:27]But then we Yeah.

[00:13:31]In other planets too there's a reason maybe because of the ice that there's on Mars.

[00:13:37]There's a reason.

[00:13:38]And that reason came from a reason and so etc. So if we don't have an independent thing in the universe in our universe, why we should have a an independent thing at least Because an independent thing in the universe would make it dependent.

[00:13:57]Because the universe is dependent, right?

[00:13:59]>> know how to say in English. Yeah.

[00:14:07]You can use Google Translate.

[00:14:09]I mean I don't know how to No problem.

[00:14:12]I'm I'm patient. No worries.

[00:14:20]What language is this? It's Arabic.

[00:14:22]Italian.

[00:14:27]It's a bellissimo argument, you know?

[00:14:30]Yeah.

[00:14:35]Shall I just add one more thing in while you're thinking of the word, yeah?

[00:14:39]So let's just say for argument's sake you say that there is infinity.

[00:14:42]It goes on for infinity.

[00:14:44]That's been refuted again by the fact that there is movement.

[00:14:49]Let's just say that there is a planet that has been rotating for infinity.

[00:14:57]Yeah?

[00:15:00]If it continues rotating that would mean you are adding to infinity.

[00:15:09]So a planet that's been rotating for infinity each time it rotates further you are adding to infinity because a new rotation has happened, right?

[00:15:23]Yeah?

[00:15:23]But that means Now there's a problem.

[00:15:27]Let Let Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why. I'll tell you and then you can jump in. Because the more rotations it's doing you're adding to infinity and by definition infinity cannot be added to.

[00:15:38]You're trying to exhaust an inexhaustible.

[00:15:42]Yeah? You're trying to add to something that simply cannot be added to. Infinity is infinity. If you're adding to infinity it's no longer infinity. If you're taking away from infinity it is no longer infinity. Go ahead.

[00:15:55]I think that something is going on infinitely is infinite. We cannot add something Exactly.

[00:16:07]If for example a planet that goes on forever it's going on infinitely.

[00:16:19]So surely Let's just say today it's reached it You can still see it spinning, yeah? And then it's about to complete the rotation. Now when it starts the new rotation is that part of the previous one or is it a new one?

[00:16:36]Has that rotation happened before, that particular one that's about to happen?

[00:16:41]Or is it a new one? It depends on on the concept of time and space.

[00:16:47]Here we're talking about movement and remember time is movement.

[00:16:51]You know You guys know physics? Distance equals Yeah. DST, right?

[00:16:58]Uh What was it? Uh Movement. Speed is distance over time.

[00:17:03]So if there's movement there is time. If there's no movement there's no time.

[00:17:10]Right.

[00:17:15]So in other words a bend in time and space that's gravity, right?

[00:17:20]Now theoretically though if everything stood still, everything, would there be time?

[00:17:27]No, if everything stood still not talking about mass at the moment.

[00:17:36]Look into this when you get a chance, yeah? Look into this. If everything stood still there's no time.

[00:17:42]Check Check this. Check this. So coming back to the point, yeah?

[00:17:46]So Welcome salaam. If there is movement then there is time. So here the new movement that's taking place is adding to infinity which again doesn't make sense. If you don't like that example, us moving over here.

[00:18:00]We're adding.

[00:18:01]Right? Adding to something which is supposed to be infinite which again doesn't make sense.

[00:18:15]Right.

[00:18:17]Even though we're living in the infinite the fact that we are doing things that didn't exist before means by definition things are being added to. For example, there's a box and there are 10 apples in there. If I'm putting things in there that were not in there before, I am adding to it.

[00:18:41]No problem.

[00:18:43]Give me another one.

[00:18:57]Okay, yeah, yeah.

[00:19:17]I don't understand what you're saying.

[00:19:22]Right.

[00:19:23]Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:38]Okay, brother. Let me just finish this, yeah? Okay.

[00:19:42]Even if you maybe use other examples, there's a theory that says that if the universe had been around forever then there would be there would have to be an infinite amount of stars.

[00:19:55]Yeah, so when we look up at the night sky there would be so many stars that technically speaking we wouldn't even have a night time.

[00:20:03]Just think about it. You've been around for infinite.

[00:20:06]Now the amount of stars, they can't be any black space because it's infinite, right?

[00:20:11]So that that maybe is an example that you can maybe vibe with.

[00:20:42]The first universe.

[00:20:46]Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the preceding universe. But but you're still still now having you've just pushed the problem back now, right? You're saying that this universe is one of millions of other universes, but the question still arises. Yeah, what caused those universes?

[00:21:03]And where did those universes come from?

[00:21:05]Okay, they came from a black hole. Is that black hole dependent or independent? Okay, that's dependent.

[00:21:10]Dependent on what? Something else dependent. Okay, is there an infinite regress or is there an end to that chain?

[00:21:17]Right. So if you have an infinite regress, then what you're now saying is that that infinite regress is number one things are being added to.

[00:21:29]Yeah, like I talked about movement.

[00:21:31]And we can even say well movement slash time. Because things are being added to, it's incoherent with an actual infinity.

[00:21:40]Because I'm sure you accept that an actual infinity doesn't exist, right?

[00:21:51]Well, like what?

[00:22:23]But nothing created a changing form only started at the Big Bang.

[00:22:29]Right?

[00:22:31]Exactly. But what we can say axiomatically is whatever is before the Big Bang by definition has to be dependent.

[00:22:48]No problem.

[00:22:49]But there will be two options though, right? Either what preceded the Big Bang is dependent or independent.

[00:22:55]There is no other option.

[00:23:05]But then again, there are many ways to think about physics.

[00:23:08]You guys don't say when you're learning about speed or time, oh there's many ways to talk about time, therefore we won't talk about time or we won't have we won't hold a position on time. Or there's many definitions of mass, there's many different definitions of species, there's many different understandings and definitions.

[00:23:29]Yeah.

[00:23:37]Right.

[00:23:48]Right. I got your point. So there are some points that we gather experientially, right? There are some that we get axiomatically. So what I'm referring to these are axiomatic truths or necessary truths. For example there being dependency and independency, that's a necessary truth.

[00:24:10]The definition of species or the definition of time, that's not a necessary truth. That's inductive and you're absolutely right, that can change tomorrow. Yeah, so there is something which is a priori which we can gain without our five senses and there is a posteriori which we get through the senses. I think maybe that's why we're talking past each other cuz you guys are referring to the physical, I'm referring to the immaterial, the axiomatic. Yeah? Uh so so that's the difference and dependency and independency is a priori. It's not going to change tomorrow. Something dependent will not become independent tomorrow because by definition something is dependent if it can cease to exist.

[00:24:58]Even if you can consider its nonexistence.

[00:25:03]If you can consider its nonexistence then it must be dependent.

[00:25:08]By definition.

[00:25:14]Yeah, so uh So cause and effect.

[00:25:24]Cause and effect we would argue is a priori. Yeah?

[00:25:29]Actually, that's not a good example.

[00:25:31]Huh?

[00:25:36]What sort of example?

[00:25:40]Of a a priori thing?

[00:25:51]And and with regards to the physical Yes.

[00:26:01]Yes, yes. So for example, when when you're talking about the definition of time yeah, when you're talking about the definition of species when you're talking about the Big Bang theory, these are all physical, these are all based on our inductive faculties, it's based on induction, right? That we we look at our observations, if there's enough observations to match our hypothesis, it will be passed as a theory.

[00:26:26]However there being existence yeah, that's something that's axiomatic.

[00:26:32]For us to do anything we have to accept that there's existence.

[00:26:37]Even though it can't be put under a microscope, even though it's not physical, we have to accept there's existence.

[00:26:51]But then are you saying that there's that you might not exist?

[00:26:58]Or or that sorry, that there is no existence.

[00:27:03]I Sorry, I just want to hear this answer. Remember your point though.

[00:27:07]Do you believe that it's possible for there not to be existence?

[00:27:22]Okay, now listen to what you said.

[00:27:25]It's something that we thought.

[00:27:29]That's pre that's presupposing a we and that's presupposing a thought.

[00:27:35]So there is existence.

[00:27:37]Yes.

[00:27:59]Created or labeled?

[00:28:12]You think you exist, therefore you exist.

[00:28:27]Because you're saying I think presupposes a mind, right?

[00:28:49]Who won't be objective? A wolf?

[00:28:52]Animal. How do you know? How do you know?

[00:29:02]Thomas Kuhn, he's written a paper peer-reviewed, right? He says and he gives the examples of bats. We as human beings will never know how a bat views reality.

[00:29:13]We can superimpose our understanding on it. If we see an animal maybe writhing to what it seems to us, writhing in pain, we will label it as pain.

[00:29:25]But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's in pain.

[00:29:35]Pain itself is not a physical thing, right?

[00:29:38]Pain is not a physical thing.

[00:29:46]So if I was to open up a human being, I'd be able to see pain.

[00:29:49]Yeah.

[00:29:50]Also I'd be able to see I'd be able to see flashes of electricity, but that is not pain, right? Even if I'm elated, that will be electricity. Even if I'm angry, like then you know what I mean? Sorry, I just went like this, but you're looking that way.

[00:30:08]So, that might That's not pain though.

[00:30:11]That flash of electricity is not pain, right?

[00:30:14]It's It's an interpretation of the electricity, correct?

[00:30:19]So, again, it's our understanding of the electricity that we are interpreting as pain.

[00:30:26]It's still is physical. So, if you Yeah.

[00:30:30]But just because it's physical doesn't mean it's pain. I've I've met certain warriors. You go like that to them and they're like They feel nothing.

[00:30:41]Yeah.

[00:30:42]But like When you put the nerves But both that slap or the signal in the brain and the brain felt something. The brain felt something or the brain interpreted it.

[00:30:58]Felt something. Brain doesn't feel things.

[00:31:01]Uh It's It's like a reading a pattern.

[00:31:07]Yeah. A pattern reading a pattern and concluding.

[00:31:11]If I read a pattern doesn't mean I'm feeling that thing that from which the pattern is coming, right? Reading a pattern is different to feeling it. So, because the brain is interpreting something, doesn't mean the brain is feeling it. The brain is interpreting it as pain. You might go to certain cultures in which they don't regard that as pain. Go to certain bros.

[00:31:32]They go like this. Hey! They don't interpret that as pain. They interpret that as love.

[00:31:38]Yeah? You go to somebody else, like I saw one guy, he won a fight and his sensei, you know, punched him in the face.

[00:31:45]He interpreted that as respect and go ah.

[00:31:49]Yeah? Why and you're ah.

[00:31:51]He went like that. Why? Because it was a source of honor for him. He didn't go like Do you see?

[00:31:59]The signal of of the went into the brain and it felt pain.

[00:32:08]But then maybe that punch was like the punch uh you must felt also happy.

[00:32:18]So, you felt also the pain and also the happiness.

[00:32:22]How do you know if it's happiness or if it's sadness? Um molecules.

[00:32:32]Molecules don't have anything to do with uh Electric signal? Electric signal. Uh a molecule.

[00:32:39]The molecules? Yeah.

[00:32:41]How?

[00:32:44]Serotonin. The serotonin.

[00:32:46]Our hormones. Yeah, hormones, yeah.

[00:32:49]They're molecules. Okay, but not to be inappropriate, but there are certain practices that people do in which they get pain, but they feel elated.

[00:33:03]Yeah? You know what I'm saying, yeah?

[00:33:06]So, they are going to release a different type of hormone. Does that mean that that thing that they are getting feel pain. But they said that you said hormones. They are getting a happy hormone. Like dopamine release. But you still feel pain.

[00:33:21]But You can't say that it wasn't painful, but you can say it also brings happiness.

[00:33:28]Okay, let's take one step back.

[00:33:31]So, how do you interpret if something is painful or not? The electrical signal or the hormones? Because in this example, I've said there's dopamine that's been released.

[00:33:40]Not Yeah, dopamine. Not cortisol.

[00:33:43]Yeah?

[00:33:44]Based on the body's physical chemistry, a scientist or a chemist will be able to conclude that that person felt happy, not pain. If you're saying, "No, no, no.

[00:33:55]We have to look at the electrical signals." Then we have to look at how the brain has interpreted electrical signals and we know very little about which part of the brain is an indication of what type of emotion.

[00:34:11]Sometimes we're able to say, "Oh, that part of the brain indicates happiness."

[00:34:15]But if the person becomes brain damaged, then it moves to a different part of the brain. So, we have very little understanding on brain physiology and where emotions, feelings, and memories are localized. That's why I'm trying to pin down where you believe it's coming from.

[00:34:45]Uh can we speak after this, inshallah?

[00:34:52]Brother, this brother is fitna. I spoke to him last time and he just shouted.

[00:34:56]Too much shouting. He doesn't want to listen. He doesn't want to listen.

[00:35:00]I asked him last time very simple question. How many gods died on the cross? And he couldn't answer.

[00:35:09]No problem. No problem.

[00:35:12]So, uh how did we even get to this point?

[00:35:17]Yeah. Okay, so So, if we then um So, So, you were saying in terms of experience, things that are learned experientially and things that are learned non-experientially, yeah? A priori or a posteriori, yeah? So, I'm saying and we talked about existence and you're talking about how you believe that you exist, your mind, etc., etc., yeah? So, I'm saying that if a person casts aspersions on whether there is existence, then everything falls apart.

[00:35:49]Then your physics degree falls apart.

[00:35:51]You even speaking to each other falls apart. If there is no existence, there's nothing. There's a question mark on everything. Then there is no morality.

[00:35:58]There's no I would say experiential certainty. Not epistemic certainty. Experiential certainty. So, what I'm saying is, according to the principle of sufficient reason, according to our understanding of design and things that are either created by chance order as opposed to chaos, all evidences point towards a creator as opposed to a non-creator.

[00:36:24]That makes the most sense. And then if you then further ask yourself, is it one creator or is it many creators? Then when you look at the definition of an independent, could there be many independent beings?

[00:36:38]No, they can't be because an independent everything relies on it and it relies on no one. So, if there are two independent beings, that means one of the independent beings does not rely on the other independent beings, therefore by definition not everything relies upon this. So, it can't be independent.

[00:36:58]Becomes logically incoherent. So, as Muslims, we believe that there is a God, there is a creator.

[00:37:07]The creator, like we were doing, can be rationalized, philosophized, and even when you're looking at certain empirical things, you can reach the inference to the best explanation that there is a creator logically, rationally, philosophically.

[00:37:26]Then it makes sense that that creator being the all-wise and us being limited has not just let us be because we believe him to be all-wise. So, he has tried to communicate to us. And lo and behold, this is the translation of the scripture that he has sent us, yeah? It's a translation and you guys are welcome to have a read in your spare time.

[00:37:52]See what your creator has said to you.

[00:37:54]It's a translation though.

[00:37:56]And if something comes from the creator, we believe that there have to be certain criterias.

[00:38:03]If a book comes from God, surely we have to have it in the same form that it was when it was revealed, otherwise it's no longer there.

[00:38:12]And as Muslims, we argue and we debate and we discuss and we reason. When you look at the Bible, Old and New Testament, it has been changed. When you look at the Vedas, it has been changed.

[00:38:25]Even when you look at modern religions, like Sikhism and their Guru Granth Sahib, their original manuscripts, there is there is inconsistencies and there is a lack of evidence for us to verify the original Guru Granth Sahib. The Quran, however, is the only holy book that we have chains of narration and manuscripts dating to the time of the prophet, peace be upon him.

[00:38:50]We read it in the original Arabic and we memorize it also.

[00:38:56]And Arabic is a living language. It's the fourth or fifth most spoken language in the world.

[00:39:02]Jesus spoke Aramaic.

[00:39:04]New Testament was in Greek.

[00:39:06]Christians do not speak Aramaic. It's UNESCO said it's uh it's fast becoming extinct.

[00:39:15]Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament, only, you know, Palestinians in Palestine speaks it. Yeah? I mean, they claim that they're Israel, but Palestine, yeah?

[00:39:26]So, then even when we're looking at, for example, the evidence within the Quran, the Quran has a falsification test.

[00:39:33]Yeah? The Science Science has a falsification test as well. That typically speaking, if you present a theory, best practice is that that theory attempts to be falsified.

[00:39:46]And then if it's not falsifiable, then we can put it forward. That's best practice, yeah?

[00:39:52]So same with the Quran. The Quran has a challenge in there, that if you believe it was sent by anyone other than God, produce a verse like it, pure, truthful.

[00:40:03]And you have non-Muslim scholars like Angelica Neuwirth, not even Muslims, non-Muslim scholars that say that this challenge was not met by the original, the Arabs at the time of the prophet, because their level of Arabic was unparalleled. But there are other challenges. For example, if it was revealed by anyone other than God, in it you would find a lot of contradictions.

[00:40:27]In it you would find inconsistencies, even when it comes to the concept of God. Christians, as you go through the park, they will tell you, if you ask them honestly, they believe uh that Jesus is a fully God and fully man.

[00:40:43]Which is of course a contradiction.

[00:40:45]Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't make sense.

[00:40:46]How can you be fully God and fully man?

[00:40:49]Yeah, Jesus was limited in knowledge, but he but God is unlimited in knowledge.

[00:40:56]So how Yeah, yeah.

[00:41:02]I don't see it like that because I'm I've gone to many Christian schools.

[00:41:07]And God is just God.

[00:41:11]And Jesus was a he's human form.

[00:41:18]Can't say that.

[00:41:19]That's the heresy of modalism.

[00:41:22]I studied like that.

[00:41:24]Okay.

[00:41:25]No, go ahead. Go ahead.

[00:41:28]So so yeah, so Italians are are Catholics, right? Generally speaking. So the Catholics accept the seven ecumenical councils. And the seven ecumenical councils are clear, unambiguous in their depiction of Jesus. Uh in fact, it's in the Council of Ephesus that it says that Jesus is fully divine and fully God, undivided, unconfused, unchanged. And those are you can check this yourself. Anyone who denies this, they are like 12 12 or 12 plus anathemas, i.e. heresies, that you become uh a heretic. So for you to be a Christian, you have to accept that there's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three are co-equal, co-eternal, but three individual beings. Jesus himself was fully God and fully man.

[00:42:22]He is independent, yet he is begotten, or rather he is eternally begotten by the Father. I'm choosing my words very carefully, cuz I don't want to upset the Christians, yeah?

[00:42:35]So they believe he's fully begotten from sorry, eternally begotten from the Father, and the Holy Spirit is eternally generated from the Father, yet they are both independent, which again is another contradiction. It doesn't make sense.

[00:42:50]But that in itself, because think about it, if Jesus was only man, then Jesus dying on the cross holds no significance for the Christians, cuz they have to believe God died for their sins. Again, emphasized in the Council of Ephesus, which is something accepted by the the Catholic Church. So based upon that, their belief in God doesn't make sense.

[00:43:11]Yeah, that if if Jesus is God and the Father is God, according to the law of identity, the Father has to equal the Son.

[00:43:22]Yeah? I'll say that again. If Father is God, Jesus is God, therefore the Father equals the Son.

[00:43:29]Which goes against the law of identity, which is a very important principle of of logic. So what I'm saying is that com- comparatively speaking, because you mentioned that there are so many theories, and you mentioned as well. I just wanted to come full circle.

[00:43:44]I I appreciate you guys being patient, so I'll I'll wrap up.

[00:43:47]That when you look and you compare the logical consistencies, you will notice that evidentially Islam is more coherent.

[00:43:57]Practically, Islam is more coherent.

[00:44:00]Philosophically, Islam is more coherent.

[00:44:03]Logically, Islam is I can go on. I can go on.

[00:44:07]So like that, then then you ask yourself, if something truly comes from God, should it be coherent or should it be incoherent?

[00:44:16]And that's where my argument would be, something that comes from God has to be coherent, cuz God himself says that had it come from anything other than God, in it you'd find loads of contradictions.

[00:44:27]But it says "Qul huwallahu ahad." Say he's God, the one, independent, pre- and post-eternal, and there is nothing like it. Very simple definition of God. Ask a Christian this, "What's your definition of God?"

[00:44:40]Our God is all kind, all merciful, and you know, he's the all-powerful. Okay, was Jesus all-powerful?

[00:44:47]No, no, no, he needs human form.

[00:44:50]He needs he needs human identity. Okay, so but was that human identity God?

[00:44:55]But wasn't wasn't both the human and the divine in one person?

[00:45:02]Becomes very technical. I don't want to bore you with the details.

[00:45:05]But that's in a nutshell. Do you have any questions about what I said about the Islamic aspect? I know we discussed about the other aspects.

[00:45:13]Anything about Islam that you guys want to get clarified? How old was Aisha when Muhammad married her?

[00:45:22]So you have the Quran now.

[00:45:24]You you have the Quran in Uh sorry, I'm just he's a heckler, yeah, yeah.

[00:45:29]So when it comes to the Quran, you can read that, and I would say and we as Muslims we welcome this as well. At Speakers' Corner, if you see, when you're walking down the street, there'll be someone with a table that says Quran on there, and come ask me questions.

[00:45:44]Have have questions. Yeah, because as Muslims we don't mind, because something that comes from God, not everyone's going to understand it straight away, but as Muslims it's our responsibility to inform people, to help people.

[00:45:59]And yes, we can be accepting and respectful of other people and their beliefs, but we can have our own belief, and you guys can have your own belief, and believe, you know what, this is the most rational.

[00:46:11]Yeah, this is the most logical. And then you guys can, you know, you know, then progress beyond that.

[00:46:19]Yeah?

[00:46:21]So yeah, thank you for your time, guys.

[00:46:22]And I hope you enjoy your time here. Any other questions? I'll be here. Come back to me, yeah? Take it easy.

[00:46:29]Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, you smell. Come on, go. Go. I smell Yeah, yeah, yeah, go. You smell. Yeah, you smell a lot of Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:46:38]How old was Aisha? Get lost.

[00:46:41]Uh get lost, mate.

[00:46:51]Get lost, mate.