CLAVI Founders on Next-Gen Crypto Security & Quantum Protection

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Welcome to the DC [music] show, Crypto Chats. Let's go.

[00:00:12]Yeah. Hello and welcome to the Coin Bureau. Welcome to the third DC show.

[00:00:18]And today we've got a pretty sick and dope topic, very important topic as well. And that's self custody, quantum computing. And we've got true experts with us. Juan from Clavi and Dra from Clavi. Hello guys, thank you so much for making it.

[00:00:35]>> Hey DC, thanks so much for having us.

[00:00:37]Very very grateful to be here. So yeah, I'm I'm D and I conceived of uh Clavi with my co-founder uh who goes by one, his name's Max about about four years ago. Um so yeah, very grateful to be here. Thank you.

[00:00:51]>> For sure. Like to anyone uh wondering uh it's not that you're like not fully doxed, it's just you know um like because the people won't be able to see you. Um we spoke beforehand. Um, we also know each other from like half a year ago and both of them actually shared a ton of information that I think is super valuable for anyone to know because you know I I figured before we actually spoke I figured I was pretty up to date when it comes to self custody and you know the security of hardware wallets but I actually wasn't and there were a ton of things that you shared that I was yeah I was super impressed by. So before we start like could you actually you know could you talk a little bit about yourself and how you actually came into that industry before we dive into Clavi?

[00:01:39]>> Yeah sure. So uh we'll keep it brief. Um if I'm honest I like to have people get to know us just by hearing us chat about our areas. Um and we you know as a lot of people know you tend to wear multiple hats uh when you conceive of and start uh something as ambitious as this. So, uh, I would describe myself as this person in our little dynamic duo who deals with more of the inner layers of the sphere that is Clavi. Uh, where Max deals with more of the outer layers, the things that you can see, etc. helping us grow outwards. Um, I'm more I guess at the at the core of things. Uh, if he wants to pitch in a little bit more. My background is is engineering. That's not software engineering, aerospace engineering. Um, and uh, and yep.

[00:02:26]I think that um summarize pretty great um our work. Um the the funny way u people like to call us is uh the designer on the or the engineer. Um but I think saying da is the inside of the company and I'm the outside um is pretty accurate and um yeah we we tend to do a lot of things so it's hard to give a proper role right now.

[00:02:52]>> Yeah. like [snorts] and and obviously you know um you're in the crypto industry like what was your entree into crypto? Like how did all that start?

[00:03:04]>> So I got in uh where are we now? We're 2026. Time goes way too quickly. Uh I got in a little over 10 years ago. Uh maybe 11 years agoish. Uh I learned about it. I was a student at the time from uh from a friend who who told me about this little old thing called Bitcoin. Uh, and I thought he was he was uh kind of off his rocker. I thought he was a little bit crazy and uh didn't really pay too much attention. Later on, stumbled upon the Bitcoin white paper, read it, thought it was so interesting.

[00:03:33]Thought I'd missed the boat. Um, and then uh, you know, long story short, got in. I used to used to build PCs and that kind of thing. Uh, tried out mining and all that. And uh yeah, fast forward to to today, we've identified a few areas that both uh Max and I feel very deeply and strongly about um that we want to tackle and try and solve. We see some issues in the space uh some areas where things have evolved very very quickly, very rapidly um and it's very hard to keep up even for people uh working on the inside of the industry, let alone outside.

[00:04:08]>> Yeah.

[00:04:09]>> What would you say? Yeah. Apologies.

[00:04:11]Apologies, Max. No. No worries. Um I entered a little bit um later than DHA um and I was um quickly hooked by the ideology behind crypto um especially many of the economic or trade issues that were mentioned quite early and later on the development were in my view always interesting you know the deos or um the uh digital art. So many of the step really resonated with me and the idea of clavia is mostly born of um let's say all the hurdles we faced um and um it wasn't our let's say initial intention to build this product um let's say to commercialize it but just uh let's say to passionate people uh who wanted to create a better product for themselves and it happened that many people were hooked and interested um about what we were solving. So that's uh I would say that's the fun part of um of Clevia. It's it's really born let's say as a as a set of ideas and patient personal project between DHA and I and evolved into a company with a with a real demand.

[00:05:23]Um I think you know what's super important for viewers is obviously you know Clavi is is a is luxury priced like it's not your average Ledger or Trezor without throwing Ledger or Treza under the bus like they're dope products but there's a massive difference um when it comes when it comes to what you guys are doing and the obvious first question you know is where's the actual difference like is it in in the quality of materials you guys use is it in the craftsmanship is it in the security aspect as well. Like where's the where's the massive difference?

[00:05:56]>> Yeah. So, that's a that's a great question and it it you know it I think the depth of why it's a great question doesn't immediately resonate because well the first thing we like to say is well we're we're not really doing the same thing at all. We think uh Ledger Trezor I mean they're the two biggest names in the self-custody uh cold wallet space. Uh we think they're doing a a pretty good job at what they've uh at what they've built. And also it's really worth considering just how long ago those guys set up and put out their first products. I mean Ledger in particular I think the Ledger as a company was incorporated in like 20 2011 2012 the first product out in 2014ish.

[00:06:35]Um and it has been a very very long time and in this you know technological landscape things evolve unbelievably rapidly. So I'll start by saying that we do not do the same thing. Um our product Clav happens to also be a self self-custodian hardware wallet. Um it does also happen to fulfill uh some of um or a lot of the functions that some of their products do. But the way that we go about it is is inherently where the divide is. a lot of our time, attention and focus has gone into um building out let's say the the infrastructure and distilling it into uh an item that you can buy. Um it's this idea of giving people custody over the entire system as opposed to just one part of it which is the signing. Um that's a very like rough and quick overview of it. But yeah, there's there's a there's a big distinction there. And to to to also quickly address the the the price point and everything, it's it's 6,000 Swiss Franks for the for the base model. And um we have this so you know it's it's rare that you have uh a designer and an engineer like at heart um get along, let alone work together and build a thing, right? Um there tends to be conflict there. And one thing that uh Max and I really agreed on and resonated with from the very very beginning when we were just you know like friends working together on other things way before Clavi uh is there just shouldn't be a compromise between form and function. And once upon a time a lot of you know nowadays we call them luxury but a lot of very high-end uh makers of things um I don't want to just call them products like it could be anything and everything. So, a notorious example is um Hermes, the you know, very luxurious brand today. Back when they started, they built these wonderful um extremely well-crafted saddles for horses. Uh they were built for people who did a heckload of riding and they would wear through their saddles very very quickly and they needed one that would last longer and that's whereas came in and that's that's the kind of thing that they built. it was it was things built to a a very high standard of quality because it would last longer. It would fulfill the function better than the others and there's there's a value return there. Um and that's where a lot of it started and that's something that we care very deeply about. So building Clavi especially in today's landscape where security privacy it's it's all kind of under increasing uh exponentially getting getting bigger threats. Um, we just wanted to build something where we weren't thinking about, you know, margins and all that kind of thing. We just wanted to build a no compromises product that is architecturally uh sort of maxed out on on on all the levels and all the areas and parameters that we could possibly max out something like that because that's that's kind of something that should exist in our view and that's kind of why it started and then like Max said it we didn't initially intend for it to become like a whole company and a product like this but it but it has now.

[00:09:35]What would you say is like the biggest you know difference um especially like when it comes to self- custody from where we are today um to you know where we started like what what are the things that have changed?

[00:09:46]>> Ooh that is a that is a very good question. Um so a lot has changed right and this is this is thinking about the last 10 10 15 years but this is also looking at how technology and our interaction with it has changed. Um, and we'll kind of hone in a bit on on security and a little and touch on why I mentioned privacy too. So, self-custody once meant and still in a lot of people's eyes uh means this idea in definitely in the blockchain space, the crypto space that that that we're talking about here. Uh, this idea of taking custody of the keys that that you can um own your wallets and, you know, own the interaction with your wallets with. Um, and that's that's what it meant. That's where it started. And it was it was fueled by this incredible degree of of excitement. Um, about 10 years ago, you had a lot of sort of altruistic perspectives about how we can have this sort of decentralized ownership of our assets and all that kind of thing. Um, a lot of sort of hate towards banks and banking systems as well kind of got tied into it. I would say that our take is a little bit different and it is a result or a product of how security at its very roots has evolved over the last 10 years as well. So back then the self custody did address the needs genuinely quite well. We liked it a lot. Um I love the original Nano and and everything it was doing. today. There are other factors that I would argue um put under threat uh your security um as much as if not more than some of the areas that the original self-custody uh did address.

[00:11:28]And we're talking about data protection um today with and this is inevitable is going to come up right um with AI being a catalyst for so many technologies and empowering so many individuals to do more things. It is this this pretty fantastic tool um that and and any tool as as we look historically is taken up by by criminals first because they don't care about regulations. They just want to leverage it for its fullest abilities and capabilities. And then you know sort of regulatory landscape takes a while to catch up. And we're in this sort of uh interesting flux right now where the capabilities have definitely exploded and they're everywhere and everyone uses them. and the understanding of just how much they can do is not quite there yet.

[00:12:12]And this includes the people working on them. Um, and that that very tricky space to be in. Um, and that's that's a that's a space that that we're cognizant of and and now we're thinking more about because if I'm going to ground this in some real world examples, areas where data protection matters more now is an area where well most recent examples in in in France in the last 2 three years you had people getting kidnapped. Not because they weren't doing self- custody correctly. Uh, and not because they did anything wrong individually, but because their data was leaked by companies who have very much commoditized our trust.

[00:12:48]Um, and data has been brokered all around the world. And now it takes uh far less. There's a lower barrier of access to access uh just these huge droves of data uh that exist all around the world around us. um and our individual habits, preferences, things that we do and uh that is the threat that we see today. Um we think the user experience, how easy it is for an individual to access um let's say secure systems is also something that's really worth thinking about. So the the self-custody that was built and thought about 10 years ago is already and it was already addressing what it needed to do very well. Today we think that the needs and the responsibility of self-custody providers uh has shifted significantly and architecturally it calls into question a lot of decisions that were made that may also need to shift.

[00:13:42]>> Mhm. Like the last time we spoke I was super super impressed by because I've never actually thought about that was the jurisdictional advantage you guys have because obviously like for for the audience you know um Clavi [clears throat] is based in Switzerland and this is not purely because it's luxurious and you know Rolex and all of the you know the watches that are there.

[00:14:04]It's also it has a privacy advantage and I really um wanted you to dive into that as well because I think it's hugely important. Um and this is actually essentially is in my opinion one of the biggest biggest aspects when it comes to self custody is privacy and why Switzerland is so good when it comes to that.

[00:14:22]>> Yeah absolutely. Um and uh just before starting on Switzerland, it's as well important to remember that we all live in our education bubble and I am the one who speaks a lot to clients and people who you know just contact us out of curiosity and there is a huge gap uh between let's say the people who educate themselves or just scroll on Twitter versus um the average um wealthy person in Switzerland. land. I spoke to a few uh clients who are um working for their family office and I regularly have questions such as a his I've asked on TV a good way to secure Bitcoin or last week someone asked um where our servers located. So and and it's not to mock those people. It's just to show what's the the reality of u security and um as well a friend of mine was thinking um open AI was actually open source. So because of marketing and because we cannot be interested or knowledgeable about everything um education doesn't solve because we regularly uh see and that's why I'm I'm going to jump into Switzerland. uh but we discussed a lot before making clav it was um a long long brainstorm about how do we solve um security and for a long time I remember dha was doing tutorials about security on discord and that didn't really solved much usually people would have a bad experience first and then they would get interest into security and it will always be super light they will never go into multi-ature or taking care of their privacy. So it it's it's this way that the the ethos of Clavia is born into we should really build a product for the people who cannot or do not have time or are not yet at the stage where they can understand how the technology works. You should provide them great privacy. you should provide them uh great options uh by design and you shouldn't work hard to educate them and I think it's been a big flow in our space to tell people hey you should have you know did this action else it's your fault if you have been act there is a lot of gaslighting into um you know punishing the user who's doing something wrong but let's be honest many of the action in the blockchain space are quite complicated um and we reach a stage because of AI or because of social engineering. Um even an expert or um you know any anyone can fall into traps. Someone who's working every day in the industry can fall into social engineering and um an experienced developer can download um a malware or just install the wrong package. So that's with this idea in mind that we were like we should create um a product and the product is one thing but the user experience is really important and the latest point that many people do not consider when they build a company is the jurisdiction. Jurisdiction is very important because that defines what you can or what you can't do with your product. Um and Switzerland has its unique set of laws when it comes to privacy. It's not perfect. Um anyone listening the live might be telling me, hey, I know they do have, you know, proton and they might mention a case where uh proton let's say did compliance with the law and that's important to remember there there's no perfect jurisdiction. Uh but Switzerland when it comes to um giving a proper set of laws for companies doing what we do to protect the customer is is very important and um D might speak right now but um another point I can jump back on Switzerland later but >> anyone can check online but Lara will tell you as well how do you protect um data and it's it's as well down to how much you collect. Before we come to that because I didn't want to interrupt you like obviously like you guys are absolute wizard when it comes to that but have you ever been like you know tricked have you ever been scammed? Did that ever happen to you?

[00:18:52]>> Was like social engineering so good that they actually got you?

[00:18:56]>> Yeah it it's happened and um it's the biggest lesson you you you can have. Um my first um issue was just I I I got too much habits. uh back in time I was trading a lot on unis swap and uh one day and it's still something that is going on which is really infuriating so that was years ago and I didn't had unis swap saved into my favorites and I was just out of a bits typing the name uh into my web browser and I just open uh one fake unis swap that was like a perfect replica it was showing up even if you had add blockers um first and uh I just clicked I just swapped uh my tokens. It was maybe 3:00 a.m. uh my wife was speaking to me and then 10 seconds after I realized I I I just got you know uh tricked and that that was a huge lesson because many time ego will tell you I won't be tricked because you're very careful. Uh but that that lesson made me understand that a wrong habit or lack of care, being tired, being you know foggy in the mind, you you can get tricked.

[00:20:08]>> Yeah.

[00:20:08]>> And the most brutal um examples we have which can be the topic of another emission is social engineering. We've we've seen through our career >> um people falling into very very complex um social engineering scheme and it can involve people who have um a bunch of well-made paperwork, a bunch of people who are ready to shake your hands, build relationship for years. So I I would say anyone no matter the experience can fall into the things and and our job is to basically provide the product that prevents this as much as possible but everyone everyone saw as well one of the ledger co-founder being um assaulted at home and it's the proof um that can happen to anyone and I was sure this guy had you know personal security maybe cameras and a lot security measure that goes beyond um what a lot of people have.

[00:21:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's such an important lesson. Sorry. Sorry. It's I just wanted to add like such an important lesson for you know anyone watching this that even like you guys you know people who are absolute wizards who know their stuff who like yeah even this stuff even happens to you. So, it's hugely hugely important that you pointed that out for anyone watching. And yeah, like social engineering and all of that like people are getting crazier and crazier. They're getting more and more creative in the ways, you know, they they they want to scam people. So, but they want to, you know, steal steal your coins basically.

[00:21:44]So, yeah. No, just wanted to add that.

[00:21:47]Such a valuable lesson. Sorry, Dra.

[00:21:49]>> No, no, not at all. It it it is a very valuable lesson and it's Max Max touched on these on these areas already but there's this this funny thing that happens with with new technologies.

[00:22:01]There's a lot of sort of gatekeeping like intellectual or academic gatekeeping for by the people who understand it very well and there's this this sort of onus of responsibility that's placed on the individuals accessing and using the tech where you know I if you've done something wrong they phrase it exactly like that you've done something wrong and that's I think that's quite problematic that's not a great way to welcome people to what should be a new and interesting technology Um, can you still can you still hear me because the >> I can hear you. I can hear you. No, no, no. You're here. You're here.

[00:22:37]>> Yeah. I think I think that onus of responsibility is is one of the areas that is at the crux of where the problem is. Um, and it's one of the areas that we want to tackle and that's what I touched on a little bit earlier as well when I said uh I think part of the problem is is user user interface. its user experience because especially today and and this was already a problem five five six years ago but today with with AI LLM uh accelerating uh you know an individual's capability the way they have malicious actors now have this um I want to say fantastic but equally terrifying tool uh to create for example um a fully tailored dashboard on the web that may look exactly like the dashboard that you're used to when logging into your bank um or anything else that is a sensitive area. And they have this lower barrier of access to make these tailored ones, you know, specialized for you as an individual, which and you know, security is is not a binary thing. It's it's this constant look and view and judgment of how much time, energy, and money will it take for me to uh break through this this thing that I might be trying to break through. Um and that equation is is shifting shockingly fast uh in today's world and that's that's part of the problem and that's why fishing in our view is is probably amongst the largest systemic issues that is facing uh that that cyber security is facing uh on the whole and that's one of the areas that we're thinking a lot about and that's why um I also mentioned that architecturally speaking self-custody uh has to try and evolve adapt shift as as quickly as possible um to to keep up with the growing issues that are not based around really protecting your keys anymore. The the solutions worked well for that. But what is the point when you're being tricked and you as an individual are authenticating your coins to leave you but just with basically some extra steps that are put there by the hardware wallet. Um so that that is I would I would say very much at the root of what we're trying to solve. uh as a company, as individuals.

[00:24:50]>> Now, there there are many people um that would argue, you know, that those social engineering hacks and all of that stuff is even more dangerous than quantum computing >> because that actually [snorts] >> it is okay. That that's perfect because like this was my my next question. Um obviously there's a bunch of talk about you know um you know there this and this much cubits needed and Q day is now 2030 and you know everybody's going crazy like where do you guys stand on that you know from a technical perspective and that's even more the more honest and and question is there anything that hardware wallets could do when it comes to quantum or is yeah like >> that's interesting okay now I'm very eager to hear.

[00:25:39]>> Yeah. So, I mean, look, quantum quantum computing and this this exponential rise in cubits that we're able that we've been able to uh to stack onto single single computers has been really interesting to watch. Quite exciting from like the academic perspective. Uh for me, I'm like a bit of a nerd. Um so, it it's been very cool. But it is honestly not something that that scares us at all. It is something um that is very important and significant uh with a great deal of responsibility for uh not just self-custody harbor wallet providers but for any wallet uh operator or provider it doesn't matter who uh centralized exchange uh decentralized exchanges um everyone has to think about it to a certain degree definitely the chains themselves Ethereum Foundation should be thinking about it um and they already are we've seen uh posts from Vital metallic uh to basically call attention to the fact that this is a little closer uh than people initially anticipated. But the the fix is um dare I say it not as difficult as a lot of people [laughter] >> are are worried about. It is it is a it's a pretty straightforward thing um that is somewhat complex to implement but once it's there it's it's there and that's quantum resistant encryption. Um once you have an algorithm that has quantum resistance baked in, you can use that in tandem with existing ones or in place of existing ones. And that's about it. Uh it's it's it's the responsibility of wallet providers, etc. to make sure that that's in place for the way that they custody and secure keys. Um, and I mean there's a lot of security experts out there who who are going to say that I'm simplifying things, and I absolutely am, but there's no denying that that is basically what it comes down to. Um, and that is obviously something that we're that we've paid a lot of attention to, and our uh our signers, we call them runes, um, already have uh quantum resistant algorithms for encryption in place. Uh, they have been approved by an entity called NIST. Uh that's NISD in November India Sierra Tango. Um they're an entity that you know causes a lot of debate. People in the space like to say great and terrible things about them, but in the end of the day they are still the the go-to to look at. Okay, you know they've approved four uh different approaches for encryption algorithms that are quantum resistant and there there are another four. I think um they're they're talking about them this year and next year and they should be out there by 2028. And you know what?

[00:28:16]There will be a lot of uh wallet custodian providers and all that kind of thing who will not update. Maybe ones who are deprecated, they're out of date.

[00:28:22]They've they've gone bust and all that kind of thing. There will be some coins that are basically like you know put uh compromised like put out into the wild because of this. But in majority if you are uh a proactive custodian uh or wallet provider or you know an individual you mostly don't have too much to worry about uh as long as the the operator of your wallet is basically still around. Um it's it's all good more or less. I I would like to jump that a big part of our job um especially the way we've built the product is a lot discussing with people and in anything in any product whether you take a plane whether you take uh the car or you use a hardware wallet the feeling of security and the actual security is two very different things. As an example, you see on the timeline a lot of people panicking about quantum computing while the real risk like we discuss is social engineering. Blind singing is another big one or just like supply chain risks um direct attack on the supply chain level um or any other vectors and those might feel like less um a direct threat.

[00:29:40]And you have a second issue in the industry is u that many companies who have a great power are going to do their IPO soon. Uh so you might see people who have u these fear-mongering strategies of saying hey everything's going to be broken and um that that is sometime used at at an advantage to be like hey we have this secret amazing things indoor it's very good marketing to say I have a quantum computer that you can't access that can break stuff it's very great marketing to say I have a model that can break stuff um and even if it's actually true um yourself. Your most direct issue is maybe um that you will download bad package vibe coding. This is probably the way you will lose your money rather than um big criminal having this Dr. for zoom quantum computer um hacking you tomorrow will come a day where it's a real manise but I think most of the people will have ways to anticipate while um the direct issues in the security world are the ones that you do not see coming or the one who are built through social engineering or through um you know those those malares or packages. So when we discuss with with clients, we try to build a product addressing both the the core security and still providing a user experience to make them feel great. That's why the product has a certain size. That's why you can see things in a certain way.

[00:31:11]That's why there is a certain weight because another question that we ask ourself when we build this product is um will our dads will use this thing and you can build the best product. I can think about UB key or ledger. Um I think a part why it was not yet adopted by many people is that it looks very um you know retrofuturistic. Not everyone might conceptualize that the the future of security looks like a in device.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:42]>> And that's not an attack on the product.

[00:31:44]It's great product. um I use myself uh some of their product but um in in the perception that people have about security there is an association that is made at the mental level where they are naturally skeptical. So that's as well something we really discuss a long time um at the software and hardware level because the great experience in addition to having an actual secure devices as well feel secure.

[00:32:13]>> Mhm.

[00:32:14]Um [snorts] just quickly because I highlighted that comment of Charles. Um the other voice is coming from within the stream but the guys are their cameras are off. So um these are the guests one and Dra like Max and Dra the founders of Clavi like yeah very very high-end you know um security I want to say wallets but they're not really wallets are they like is it fair to say wallets? It's more like you know Yeah.

[00:32:44]Yeah, they are >> like time pieces, right?

[00:32:47]>> Kind of. I mean, they we see them as like personal infrastructure. Um, but that's just kind of a bit abstract for most people's tastes to be honest with you. Um, but look, yeah, our our one of our mottos and or slogans, we we play around with them a lot, is is like personal digital sovereignty. So it is the idea that you you take true ownership over not just your wallets um but we treat uh your personal data with the same degree of care that we treat uh your your assets on chain basically um because in this day and age uh they should have as much significance and care taken around them um as your assets do uh because of the the exploits and the problems with fishing and everything like that happening. Um, so yeah, you can you can call it call it a wallet, but it is sort of uh it's it's a lot of things. It does a lot for you. It's an orchestrator for uh all of your personal data uh and your sense of security in the digital realm.

[00:33:48]>> In the digital realm. Yeah. Be-c before we you know uh come to Switzerland because that you know that needs to be discussed as well and we need to jump back to Switzerland. Um I I the last thing about you know quantum because I partially you know I understand why people are are making a big deal about it because um obviously you know the bitcoiners have to pull on one string eventually and you know to actually solve this issue which is a big one. So the reason I was asking before you know if if there was anything we could do on a hardware level like once the 12 or 24word seed phrase is broken um there's no coming back from that right it doesn't really matter what you can do on a hardware level there is no way to actually save that once those 12 to 24 words are gone is that statement accurate or is it not I would say it is not entirely accurate um it is it is lacking nuance, let's say. Um, okay, look what it comes down to, and this is I know that this has been a a hot topic in in the Bitcoin space in particular. Uh, we don't know.

[00:34:59]And Satoshi's wallet exists. It has, uh, you know, let's say a lot of money. I don't know how much the exact figure is.

[00:35:06]People keep contributing to it.

[00:35:07]>> I think it's like 1.2.

[00:35:09]>> Yeah.

[00:35:09]>> Yeah. 1.2 like million I think Bitcoin is.

[00:35:13]>> It's a huge percentage of the of the total supply. Um, if indeed the way that that wallet was generated and its keys are generated and and secured, if that is not brought up to date with modern encryption standards and systems that are quantum resistant, there is a serious uh threat that those coins will be amongst those uh, you know, accessible uh, and and released into circulation. Now that the I mean the problem with that is obviously that that can you know affect the price of Bitcoin. So obviously a lot of people are concerned about that. Um but in our view this the the the quantum threat is is a is a larger one um at scale that affects not just assets on chain but you know affects you know all kinds of data.

[00:36:07]We've got these companies who've built their entire worth. They're worth trillions. um on our personal data over the brokerage of it etc. They >> can I push back here for a second because like I want to play devil's advocate. Is it not easier for a very centralized company, you know, let's take let's take any bank, you know, because the argument always used to be um if quantum comes like Bitcoin is the least of your problem because if like SHA 256 encryption is broken, all of your passwords like all of the banks like everyone is going to be screwed.

[00:36:38]But isn't it isn't it more like rather the more centralized an entity is the easier it is for them to actually >> um you know include quantum resistant uh mechanics or or technicals or whatever that may be. Um and it's much harder for a truly decentralized protocol like Bitcoin where everyone needs to come together to actually make that happen.

[00:37:00]>> Isn't that isn't that a fair fair argument fair statement or >> it's fair that is entirely accurate and true. Yes.

[00:37:07]>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, I mean I'm hopping. I guess I'm a devil's advocate with you. Yeah, that is entirely true. And it is why, you know, you basically don't need to be really afraid that these large companies nothing's really going to happen with them and and the way that they uh secure their data, their assets, anything and everything that they're doing. Um and the problem really is in the decentralized nature nature of uh of custody. Um and uh custody providers.

[00:37:34]Now again this comes back to that idea of placing the onus of responsibility on the user. This this does cause problems.

[00:37:41]This is what banking is built on. This is you know post the 1920s great depression and banking bank runs that happened back then. And this idea that you know people don't really entirely trust themselves to custody their own value and wealth that they acrew. Um, so yeah, I think I think the the threat here calls into question a lot of systems that we've set up for ourselves as a society which then inevitably get abused. Um, but yeah, a you know, I I I think you're absolutely right.

[00:38:15]Basically, you're that statement you made was entirely accurate. [laughter] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't want to, you know, interrupt you. Um, but no, I I just think it's it's yeah, it just makes so much sense that this is the entire because in my humble opinion, this is what will actually drive the market over the next four years. Like if we if we assume right now we're in a bare market or like I don't know, we're possibly, you know, entering another good season or we're still in a bear, who knows? Um, but the way that quantum is being handled will ultimately, you know, >> yeah, that's going to make or break everything in my humble opinion.

[00:38:50]>> Yeah. So, this is a huge huge huge aspect that we kind of need to solve.

[00:38:55]And yeah, >> I would just I'm going to play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate for a second.

[00:39:01]>> Yeah, please.

[00:39:02]>> Let's let's talk about the market and what drives it. And I'm going to quickly mention and preface this by saying that we Max and I, everyone in the Clav team, um we love blockchain for the core technology uh that it has enabled and the and the functions that are enabled by it and and basically how cool and interesting it is uh on the whole uh because of because of what you can do with it and the way that the regulatory landscape, the financial markets, economies are adapting to its existence has been a really interesting thing to watch particularly in the last 3 to four years because that's more or less you could you could say the time period through which they've started to take it seriously. Um we've had ETFs be green lit um and we've had the SEC debating it. We've had uh nations start to legalize it as as legal tender. Um we're talking about El Salvador as the first one etc. So this has been a really interesting time to to to have lived through uh quite I would say historically significant in terms of things that affect you know global economies. Um and let me get I tend to go off on a tangent. So let me get back to the [laughter] point at hand here.

[00:40:17]The reason I'm playing devil's advocate is because there's this sort of inherent disagreement by uh regulatory entities and and and leaders uh in these sort of evolved economies on how to treat blockchain and things like Bitcoin and Ethereum um because of what they enable but what they are and how they've been treated thus far thus far by the people who use them. Um, Bitcoin started as this uh as this thing and it's it's in the white paper as well. This is this is the new money. It should be used as as a as a means of trade basically. Um, and that shifted very quickly and people started to say no no no the narrative is is digital gold. It's a store of wealth, store of value. Um, and that's not something that you will want to trade.

[00:41:05]You go back to things like Teal's law and Gisham's law, good and bad money.

[00:41:09]What's if something's legalized then it becomes, you know, part of what good money is. and uh when when yeah I'm not going to get into those. It's again that's another tangent I'll try and avoid. Um but so the the interesting thing that's happening now and this is post the '08 uh you know financial collapse that we had um there there was the set of laws uh that were put in place um or rather like regulations called Basel 3 and these basically have mandated that banks must have this increased minimum amount of uh of backing for the for the for the amount of funds and value on the on behalf of clients that they hold. Um and just a few years ago, I I don't know exactly when, but it was in the last like five six years, uh gold was elevated to I think a tier one asset for backing uh of value. So then we started to see banks basically double the amount of gold that they would purchase yearly um about four or five years ago. Um now why do I mention all of this? Because blockchain started to be taken seriously. And what does that mean? Well, banks have this moment that all culminates 20 years after the '08 thing happened and Basel 3 was was was kind of announced and thought about and 20 years from that moment is 2028. Now, that's creeping up on us pretty quickly. That's, you know, a year and a half away, a little bit over. Um, at the time of listening to this, uh, some people, you know, might might be even closer than that. And now it's like Ethereum and Bitcoin are in this interesting place where they are not considered, you know, close to tier one assets at all. They're not considered, uh, you know, stores of value that banks can use and say, "Yeah, we've got we've got the value here that can that can serve as the backing. But interestingly enough, um, ETFs, even Bitcoin ETFs are built on Ethereum. And it is genuinely much cheaper and effective and faster to operate some banking rails using blockchain. And so this starts to speak to the real value of blockchain and what it's doing for global markets, global economies. And this is what I see as like a bit of a conflict because the you know the the the tokens themselves, the coins themselves are seen as this like volatile risky thing. you can't count on them as a store of value in the eyes of the banking world. But if you do not transition and start to use blockchain technologies uh you know to to to make more efficient your banking rails your end of the day settlements your end of the week end of the month whatever and of course your settlements then you are now burning a lot more money than competing banks who have shifted to using those roles and that apply look I'm not an economist I'm I'm an engineer so you know take everything I say with like a metric ton of salt but that is that represents a very interesting and strange view on blockchain technologies and Bitcoin and Ethereum in particular and I would say Ethereum is the kind of you know the main candidate for what to look at here. Um because basically banks are in this odd position where if they don't start using Ethereum and its its underlying technologies then they're going to be in a really tough position come 2028. But if they do uh then they can't store Ethereum, but yet they have to store Ethereum to make their rails work if they transition. So that is something that I would I would say does a little bit play devil's advocate because >> Yeah.

[00:44:38]>> Good one. Good devil's advocate.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. I I agree with that.

[00:44:41]>> Yeah. It's it's an odd thing. I don't I don't have thoughts or conclusions to be honest. I'm just I'm just sort of thinking out loud. But this is uh >> I believe >> I believe even Vitalik himself was it yesterday or the day before? was like very recently came out and said, you know, it's it's funny that all of those banks are building their own blockchains, but they're not really decentralized to that amount that users will trust it. Um they can essentially like stop it and, you know, [snorts] um freeze funds and do whatever they want.

[00:45:08]So eventually they will all have to return >> to Ethereum and he basically put it out there. So this is essentially what you're saying right now as well. So that brings me to my next question and I didn't want [laughter] this this you know interview or or you know live stream to basically turn into um where do you see more use Bitcoin or Ethereum but um is that the case you know purely coming from an engineer side of things do you reckon do you do you personally see more use in Ethereum than Bitcoin or is the store of value aspect um still stronger than you know the underlying let's call it the highway or rails or you know the the global computer that Ethereum eventually is or will become.

[00:45:50]>> So your question is specifically about seeing more use. I see more use in Ethereum technologies than I see in Bitcoin >> and it's and and the way it works with with proof of work and everything. Um but that is that is very specific and narrow in saying seeing more use uh because seeing more use has a underlying inherent pragmatic function associated with it. Um but that's not to say that Bitcoin won't [laughter] remain you know king of of I mean for a lot of people Bitcoin is blockchain. They're synonymous and I that may never change.

[00:46:30]Yeah. Um, it's one of it's one of those things where, you know, our our belief at Clavia as well is that we we just don't think that technologies need to take the spotlight. Um, people should be able to leverage them, use them without knowing or caring what's going on under the hood. And if what's going on under the hood is Ethereum, great. Um, but you you as an individual should not need to care about it. And that also ties back to the whole onus of responsibility thing. Um, it's it's the idea that if you need to care about this, then it's a problem. And like Max said, there's this whole education barrier that you have to cross, but we just don't think that you should have to cross it. Um, it was a similar thing with the internet. You know, you can still find articles in the 80s and even the '9s saying, "Hey, this internet thing is a fad and it's and it's going to die." Um and the fact of the matter is everyone started to use it without really knowing or caring that they were using it. Of of course now everyone knows um because that's you know sort of how a society shifts and evolves. But >> that that is the point at which uh technology genuinely starts to be uh adopted and become widespread. It's it's when the education barrier basically dissipates away entirely. And that's that's my view on it. Basically, instead of comparing Bitcoin or Ethereum, I'm just going to dodge that entirely.

[00:47:52]>> Yeah. No, no, good, good. Well done.

[00:47:54]Like very political. Like, like a like a politician. You did it very beautifully.

[00:47:58]No. Um, you know, just adding to that before we come to Switzerland, um, I think, you know, it's it's so weird that we preach about Austrian economics the entire time. And basically like the first lesson in Austrian economics is that all value is subjective. So you know that coming from one side you know from you know Bitcoin maximalism all value is subjective but if that person enjoys Ethereum or you know uses Salana or whatever it may be like it's it's a shitcoiner and you know I I respect like I love I love Bitcoin like I think it's it's yeah in my humble opinion it's the greatest store of value until you know quantum actually takes it but like until that doesn't happen I think Bitcoin is very great but >> although I think in the long term that that's going to be maybe a blip in radar. I'm saying maybe I don't know for sure. I think it could affect things in the in the short term. Uh but I think in the long term it won't really impact the trajectory of Bitcoin because at its crux if if the majority of people using Bitcoin still get together and believe that it has, you know, a degree of value for a certain set of reasons, then it just does. And that's kind of what it comes back down to. Uh when when humans decide that something has value, it just does. we all got together and decided that this shiny gold rock, >> you know, has value. So, it just does.

[00:49:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. I I would like to add as well um there is always the public view of something and the reality there there are many Bitcoin fans or any fans who speak about the thing like it's the thief's element and um they discovered some kind of rare gem that is imitable.

[00:49:34]But Bitcoin is um something that evolve and even if you look at who's working on Bitcoin, you see people like Adam back they've launched blockstream they are working on some kind of layer two you see people like Hamir who you know moves into the SIM ecosystem and now he has his own thing and he was I think one of the first Bitcoin CEO and one of the first developer so I think it's just really important to see how the the protocol itself evolved because it's very far from just being like an element. It's far from being static. Um it's been something in evolution. It's pretty much the same thing for SRM. I think it's good to keep in mind there are technologies and they are not like a rare gemstone that we found. And I think the view of people um thinking, you know, it might be perfect. It's very far from understanding what it is. It's something that keeps evolving and even if it's not evolving at a certain speed there are other people who built around such as you know the rap bitcoin or people who you know created the ordinal so you have as well this conflict within the community because people push bitcoin in another direction you as well have now ctc which I think is the coinbased BTC. So, Bitcoin itself is going in direction that we cannot even fully uh grasp yet because um people are building it's it's forever evolving ecosystem um and same for SRM and uh that's why they are very exciting but people have to understand how they work they are not like a sort of fine supply magic gemstone that you found in in nature there are things >> [laughter] >> Man, I loved how you put that. I loved how you put that. Yeah. No, totally agree though. Yeah, >> that's the issue with maximalism and and that creates I believe that's as well the issue um this maximalism um created um I would say many problem in the market because people just started to launch new coins new token new blockchain speaking about the the fate aspect like if it's some kind of groundbreaking stuff or speaking about blockchain who are more decentralized than SRM or more efficient than Solana and then it it People market their new product who are most of the time misleading like you said they are centralized instead of being decentralized and they always try to compare to compare to Bitcoin SM or even other blockchain but even Bitcoin or SM are moving things in from from a technology perspective um if if you follow SIM development there are constant changes to the technology and that's what's interesting to look at it's not like a finite thing and that's why we decided to build Clavi the way we did and that's why it's um the work is let's say forever uh um in in in in the addition that you need to do and you need to consider.

[00:52:35]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, makes makes complete sense. Makes complete sense. You know, apologies for laughing before, but you know, I had that Wolf of Wall Street scene in my in my head, but like DiCabrio is sitting there and you know where you were saying like with that French accent like this we need the you know gemstone and [laughter] this is just um no but yeah no I I completely 100% agree with you before we you know because I think this is one of the most important things or aspects actually um is jurisdictional and we wanted to dive into that but then you know um one thing led to another and we actually didn't. There's a huge difference jurisdictional if a company is like registered in Switzerland or in London let's say or like Germany or where wherever >> and I think especially when it comes to hardware wallets this makes a massive difference and I didn't know that. So that's something I really wanted you to dive into like quickly as well so that the audience can take that away.

[00:53:32]Um yeah, look I I can give because because actually this is one area where Max and I have have uh different perspectives on it and different sort of knowledge areas. So I'll I'll dive into my bit and then I can pass it over to him. Um yeah, look, we we set up Clavi four just under four years ago. It was it was incorporated uh a little over three years ago and like you said, there was a lot of brainstorming um and a lot of research done to to figure out where to set up. And this isn't, you know, this isn't just like a sort of brand perspective thing where you have like a lot of Swiss companies and watch makers uh set up there. I mean, obviously logistically that's actually quite nice.

[00:54:08]You know, you have precious metals coming through. Uh and it is convenient to tap into those lines. Um distribution also gets a lot easier particularly within Europe. Uh which is where a lot of you know high-end retailers etc are based. Um but one of the main things as well and this is you know remember this is at a time then that the uh the micica laws for the EU were still in discussion they were not uh finalized or formalized yet and we'd also watched um the regulatory landscape for things surrounding uh and and touching uh blockchain technologies be in a in a seriously volatile state of flux. And one thing that at the very least uh Switzerland is known for is making uh sustainable steps um when moving forward in a in a regulatory landscape. Now this isn't a sweeping statement. They are not without their flaws. But you can look at some companies uh whose attitude towards um their clients, their cleonel data, how they handle them is one that resonates with us that we quite like. Um examples being Proton people have heard of, you know, Proton Mail, ProtonVPN, etc. We like the way that they handle things. However, like I said, that's not to say that um that, you know, Switzerland is without its flaws. There there were some laws being debated uh that would put at risk some client, you know, client data being turned over and and Proton was, if I'm if I'm not wrong, they were saying they'd have to set up a a facility in Germany to to custody certain bits of data.

[00:55:45]>> Yeah, there was something like that.

[00:55:46]Yeah.

[00:55:47]>> Yeah. So that you know it's it's it's not a it's not a perfect landscape and it's there's no correct answer for this but uh in our view Switzerland is far and away still uh one of the best options uh for basing one's HQ uh for basing one's uh production facilities um and importantly for uh how a company can conduct their attitude towards client data. Now there are um legal obligations when you sell a thing um to people that you need to uh take uh certain parts uh certain bits of data and you need to hold on to it for x amount of time and those those variables change dramatically from region to region from jurisdiction to jurisdiction um in the in the EU and in a lot of European nations um the UK as well they're not in the EU but they're you know in Europe uh we're watching uh the attitude towards s um user data and user data privacy and all that kind of thing change very very quickly in in in honestly quite a terrifying way. We see the data protection act which is is starting to feel like quite the opposite for a lot of people. Um the online safety act and uh chat control is being debated in in the EU for quite some time. Um and that kind of defeats the purpose of endto-end encryption that we that we all see whenever we send a WhatsApp message or you know on any of the kind of messaging platforms. So these are all the things that we're watching and thinking about and those are a lot of the reasons that contributed towards our decision uh to to be based in Switzerland. So it wasn't just this sort of arbitrary uh hey you know it's good for the brand. It's um you know >> it's a rooted decision let's say >> logistically speaking because as we said and and we're quite I don't want to say pleased about this because it's not a good thing happening um privacy and data protection is among the most significant things in security to be watching out for and to be uh cognizant of uh because it is more or less becoming the root of a lot of security exploits like I said those those customized dashboards that are made, they they can only tailor them to you when they've got the they being malicious actors information like you know a lot of information about you and so if more and more companies are gathering tons of data and it's going into these uh repositories that then get leaked on the dark web and all that kind of thing and I won't name the self-custody providers um but there have been quite a few whose data repositories on their cleontell have been leaked all over the dark dark web multiple times um and This is [clears throat] ledger problematic.

[00:58:28]>> No.

[00:58:29]>> Oh, no, I didn't say anything. But um [laughter] but yeah, no, this contributes quite significantly to, you know, security and security exploits and issues. So, yeah, great. Your hardware wallet and and your keys are are safe. But what if someone knocks on your door, breaks into your house because they know that you exactly by your full name, live at this address, and have these hardware wallets, then you're sort of defeating the purpose of all of it. So that that that definitely ties in quite deep to our decision with Switzerland. Go on Max. Yeah.

[00:58:57]>> Yeah. I can as well mention a few other points that pushed us um there. And one element that will explain to everyone how far Switzerland you know was when we incorporated. So Mika was debated and Mika is a frightening thing especially as um our first angel investor was American and [snorts] God knows American they love to invest in America and everything outside [laughter] of America is um is a tough deal to negotiate. Um so we had to find as well uh jurisdiction because this investor was uh into cleav um I think before we incorporated and it as well seemed that uh Switzerland was the only place where um he was happy to put money because of the regulatory uh landscape and clarity and even before Mika Switzerland already had multiple banks.

[00:59:49]Um they were called Seba back in time now they are Amina uh they do have signum and they were already doing custod um so the whole world is discussing crypto custodian in bank account hey man it's been years that in Switzerland you can have your bitcoin your sim directly in your bank account isn't that crazy the whole world is like yeah it's going to change maybe in 2027 we can have bitcoin on you know my association account yeah in Switzerland and they do it for years. So that was already like a big um point. The other point is um I would say the the global level of education and care that the country have um I'm looking a lot into um many things and a big debate and the content were based in was the digital ID and you can look into how the digital ID have been built in 2000. this is very um well tough doesn't mean I am for or against it but when you look at the technology providers and the people who are contracted by the content to build the things they really have I will say um proper skills and a proper way to build while in Europe we've seen a lot of um let's say government contractor who are I would say not skilled to build the solution it's very frustrating for Europeans because we know a lot of people who are based um in France, Germany um and who do have the skill to build those things. So it's double frustration because some of the best um developers and actors are based in Europe and they see their the European Union actually building solution that themselves can can break into one day. So I think that's a great point is that in in Switzerland they they care about what you build and it still seem that um quality matters before who you you know shook end with um and that's very important um when you get clients when you get investment because um the world is shaking we can see right now the middle is being shaken we can see how um money is flowing and uh trust is very important It's more important than what people realize.

[01:02:04]People can quit a jurisdiction or never come back because you just met a small level of friction um at let's say a banking level or something. So right now I would say Switzerland is trying um to provide this uh level of um security and I'm happy to let the high expand a little bit because he has a lot to say.

[01:02:30]>> [laughter] >> not not too much hopefully. But um I wanted to quickly expand on that area of trust. I would say that it's not just kind of eroding but it has very quickly been commoditized in the last few years and it's it's kind of starting to be bought and sold and you know that is what the commoditization of it means um increasingly and I I see this as equally problematic and fueling the same fire that is impacting privacy and security and data protection because regulators are really unsure what to do to tackle this effectively. And what I'm talking about as a day-to-day example, there are plenty of people that we know who would ask ChatGpt or ask Claude, their, you know, whatever your chosen AI provider is. Uh, they would ask it questions and send it information that they would never reveal to their closest friends or even their family, you know, they would send it pictures of things that are very private, etc. And these are all going to centralized servers. they they have become they being the companies the AI providers um particularly cloud models uh they've become the fastest growing uh treasure troves of data that are growing um at this unprecedented scale um I would argue like globally right now >> and this this presents you know some pretty big issues that I think uh a lot of people are not quite experiencing the repercussions of quite yet. And it's because it's happened so quickly uh and because the the trust has eroded so quickly as well where people when you know you once went to an expert in a certain field to ask them a question. A lot of people feel now that they can't quite trust the individual that they're talking to um for a couple of reasons. A because they can fact check everything with what feels like a total and utter, you know, unfettered expert just on their phone. Um and you know it's become very on Twitter it's become this very classic thing of just like Grock is this true? Uh everyone is asking it and you'd see you know the leading you know PhD holding physicist in their area say something and then you you'd see someone say Grock is this true. It's >> it's like asking the echo if the origin of the sound is telling the truth >> which is a ridiculous thing [laughter] when you look at it in that >> 100% completely agree complet. Sorry to interrupt but I have to add to that. Um it's like the moment you actually are knowledgeable in some or in any area, this is where you realize that AI um most of the time is like delusional. But if you really aren't knowledgeable and you use AI, that's it's a super dope tool. Like you know, I couldn't, you know, I'm not a vibe code, like I cannot code. I'm a vibe coder. So for me, this is AI has been a huge unlock. But for anybody that actually does know how to do it, >> they all say the same thing. It's basically like Yeah.

[01:05:28]>> I mean, important to know what AI does right and what AI does wrong and for coding it has been in many case doing a big part of things right. Um the issue we see with Clavia is people who ask um question about the future or who try to do some kind of prediction with AI and prediction can be copy pasting documents and asking you know what the market will be or if a company will do X Y or Z or if a leader of a country will do something and this is far more dangerous um to to to have people who start to let's say give they're they're tough to to AI for coding. um at clavy the the most of the part is done uh manually uh bunch of ground work uh but I would say one of the biggest risk we've seen is people completely forgetting what it is and we might see the risk uh being um you know there there are providers coming from certain countries and one day you might have some bias imagine one day there are more conflicts in the world and you use model based in America and American decide they don't really like Switzerland and you ask hey [laughter] which email you know I should use maybe they will completely ban proton from being suggested from their model that's where the the dangerous part is and that's why we do appreciate as well to be in Switzerland it's because when we speak to people no matter their age they they already care about that because they know about the scandals that happen such as Cambridge Analytica and it's it could be a a huge risk coming with AI. Um this idea that people rely too much on advice and forgetting that in the end they are company located in a certain country and this country they all have their own interest um and things might change one day. This is why um options are needed. Uh but you know that's even another topic.

[01:07:38]>> Yeah. No [snorts] guys um you know I don't want to you know uh take away or steal your time any further. So the thing the last question or the last like input that would really matter a lot is could each and every one of you like both of you basically could you leave one like hugely important tip when it comes to like self custody for the audience. It's like one thing that is often overlooked but actually hugely important that everyone can take away from.

[01:08:11]>> I mean, not to not to answer this uh in a bit of a copout way, but to tie back to our introductions, uh try not to make significant transactions at 3:00 a.m. with your wife talking to you next year. Um that's for starters. the the you know this the problem is that uh human error is still the greatest thing to watch out for. So the only thing that we can really advise for the time being is no matter your custody provider or solution, I mean we're we're assuming that things are already, you know, set up reasonably well. And honestly, with a lot of custody providers, it's fairly easy to do that. Um, if you're at all knowledgeable. Um but yeah, taking a degree of human care when using them is probably still the most important thing and actually arguably uh increasing in importance to because of fishing, because of scandals, having you know the right sites that you interact with bookmarked etc. It's just these sort of basic practices that for for now unfortunately that onus of responsibility is still placed on the individual.

[01:09:18]>> Yeah. And um another thing that is um very often you know under considered is what do you do and uh the self custody been being a bit uh misleading to people because they as well uh mix words between you know cold storage self um and some people been signing a lot of things including with their hardware wallet and um when you sing something you you might get drained or when you give approval um you might get drained even if you used um a ledger and the flow isn't in you know hardware uh being compromised it's maybe you just gave your approval because you u minted a new NFT because you um started you participated in in in ICO using your your device and um it it's important to basically look and think about the the global EGN you have we know many people with hardware wallet who've been um drained and it was very often because they were just using it like way too often like a metam mask and singing a bunch of thing never using um evocation of access and such things and that's something we try to solve with our wallet because again I I don't think um the way to solve is by education um I think it's by a better product >> [snorts] >> Well, awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much uh for joining, guys. I hope you know if you're watching this right now in the future that you took something away like that it helped you because like back then, you know, I was I was honestly super surprised by everything the guys told me. Um but yeah, if there are any questions, um please leave them in the comments. I'll try to answer like most of them, all of them hopefully. And um yeah, I'll see everyone next week.

[01:11:17]Thank you so much, Max and and Darra for, you know, taking the time. Thank you so much for having us. Really appreciate it.

[01:11:23]>> Yeah, thank you so much.

[01:11:25]>> Thank you.