If students are ignored, they cannot collaborate, leading to school burnings - James Mang’erere

[00:00:00]that are we dealing with a situation whereby things have gone quiet because there has been a word from government but what are the issues that we still have to deal with when it comes to school unrest and that we saw in the last uh couple of days that the ministry did come out and pronounce itself in various things that schools are not going to close. We are not looking at early midterm but what we are looking at is a commission whereby we can make sure that the various stakeholders will come into play to ensure that certain things need to happen and we're going to make sure that we are very serious about how we deal with this. They've also come out to say that in the second term um whereby the period is very long that what we're going to see is that we'll probably see a shortened period that maybe we will see uh term two will not be so long and that some of these issues will be addressed through the commission. Those are some of the things that came out in the conversation where CS Gamba came out and said okay like we understand but schools will not close.

[00:01:00]Those issues will be addressed because we'll have a commission and we'll deal with some of these things. Now school unrest there is an issue those issues are not being addressed but maybe this commission will address them [clears throat] but there seems to be a way in which you can address these issues without or rather uh without just glossing over them and that's what we're going to be discussing today that can we handle or manage school unrest through the role of peer mediation and joining us in studio this morning is James Manganger who's an advocate of the record and joins us in the hot seat of the situation room this morning. Good morning.

[00:01:37]>> Good morning.

[00:01:37]>> How are you doing?

[00:01:38]>> Fine. Fine, thank you.

[00:01:39]>> Karasana, >> good to see you.

[00:01:42]>> We're going to get into this thing because it has we even saw a video the other day of a parent who heard that his child was one of those who was purporting to bring drama and decided to whip her in the full glare of daylight and everybody watching. And perhaps we say that's not the way to go about it, but I'm sure we're going to go into some of these things. But for what you're saying, mediation has a role to play here. So let's talk about that. Before we get into that conversation, Dennis is going to share today's proverb. We'd love to get your interpretation of it.

[00:02:09]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[00:02:10]>> Yes. Today we are in Guinea. One thing that stands out in Guinea is that it's a rich country that is uh that has many resources. Uh you talk about gold, diamond, um boide as well that is used in the production of aluminium.

[00:02:26]Let's go to the proverb. The God says, "What belongs to the sheep does not involve me until the butcherman shows up."

[00:02:38]What belongs to the sheep doesn't inform you. Okay.

[00:02:41]>> Until the butcher shows up.

[00:02:42]>> How would you interpret it?

[00:02:43]>> That's a very challenging one. But what I can say is that uh you only identify you only identify that the ship belongs to you.

[00:02:54]uh and you will need to probably gain out of it when the bujaman shows up with a knife because once it becomes meat either it's going to be eaten by other people >> or it's going to be sold and somebody needs something out of it. So I think it goes around the issue of ownership.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah. You only discover that it's yours when it's almost becoming something that is useful.

[00:03:19]>> Yeah. That's what I how I can interpret it. Yeah.

[00:03:24]All right.

[00:03:26]Would I be wrong in saying that when we look at the school unrest that you seem to think that one of the ways to handle this is by having a conversation?

[00:03:34]>> Well, I just want to uh say this is did not start yesterday.

[00:03:40]What you are seeing did not start yesterday. Mhm.

[00:03:42]>> In 1991 we had Sentito school secondary school in Meu >> where students died out of what the mess we are seeing right now.

[00:03:54]>> After that there was Bombolu girls and all these times when these events have happened the government has constituted commissions of inquiry. Yes.

[00:04:04]They have written reports and either the reports have been shelved and we have moved on until another event takes place.

[00:04:12]>> You know they always say that uh doing the same thing and expecting different result is what they call insanity.

[00:04:19]>> I think it's right time now Kenyan sit down and look at it.

[00:04:24]PE the peer mediation I'm talking about is the way way of educating our young people to know how to resolve disputes when they are very young.

[00:04:35]>> Educating them to be emotionally mature to be calm in situations where the disputes arise to have techniques of resolving disputes first of all between themselves before the teachers come in to intervene.

[00:04:49]Last week I was I attended a conference in Poston in Massachusetts for mediators all over the world and this issue about what's happening in our country was being discussed in the forums. So I tried to ask the mediators these people have been practicing from different countries what have they done in those countries and the first question they asked me is in your country do your schools have a peer mediation program and I told them we introduced something like that 5 years ago. We have trained a number of mediators but it appears the government has not impressed this idea of peer mediation. Why? probably they believe there are other ways of resolving disputes because what I'm seeing right now in our country is everybody blaming everybody.

[00:05:38]People are pointing fingers to the parents, others are pointing fingers to the government. Others are pointing fingers to the students themselves. And this blame game is not solving a dispute that has been ongoing for the last from 1991 I think it's almost 20 years with several incidents of this type. So what I was told and what I've always been saying is that our children need to be trained on conflict competency from their early stages of life because countries that have adopted peer mediation have realized a lot of calm in their school environments. Students become emotionally mature and they deal with conflicts in a way that is serves the interest of everybody. They develop what we call empathy and understanding and patience. Something that we do not have something that our parents do not teach our children at home. So I just want to state that what brings me over is to tell them what I've been saying all along that the best way to deal with conflict in our schools is embracing the peer mediation programs. Yet we find ourselves at a position where there is the aspect or feeling that students are there to be seen not to be heard.

[00:07:04]>> Yes. where students are being read down or being talked at and not being talked to, you know, uh because it is directions that come from one side and there is no outlet. Students don't know who to talk to because that is the society rather the system that has been there for a very long time. Are you therefore stating that for that to change the system even policy has to change and intentionally put in place an opportunity for feedback mechanism to be present? You know students are human beings like anybody else. They need to be heard, valued and respected.

[00:07:49]We have created an environment where the students opinion may not take into account.

[00:07:57]And you see human beings usually >> when they are treated in a way that they don't feel valued.

[00:08:04]>> They don't feel understood.

[00:08:07]Definitely what you are seeing right now is people who have developed impatience. They do not they're emotionally disturbed. This process of peer median I'm talking about is a process that helps students develop empathy first of all is something that's very important. Empathy is understanding other people's feelings.

[00:08:32]Being calm in in in instances of pressure and knowing how to approach conflicts constructively.

[00:08:41]>> Something that is missing in us. You know they don't get it at home because parents are pissy. You know barrens leave [snorts] home very early in the morning at 6:00 to get back to work. They also go through a lot of pressure. They come back at 9:30 in the evening after going through all this traffic jam. And the only thing probably they do is they are trying to make a lot of money as much as possible to ensure that their children are comfortable. But children do not only need money. They need presence because this is the only way we can develop them emotionally. What you are seeing right now are children who are not resilient, >> children who are not patient, children are not calm because they have not experienced that from their the environments they have from home. So I can tell you how powerful peer mediation is. Mhm.

[00:09:32]>> Peer mediation students start learning very early first of all on how they can solve disputes and conflicts between themselves. Not only solving but managing. There's a big difference between solving and managing. If students are able to marry their conflicts because there's what we call intra personal conflict and interpersonal conflict. Intrapersonal conflict are those conflict within the students themselves. That's why I'm talking about emotional literacy if I how they can manage themselves emotionally and interpersonal conflict is how they can solve conflict between themselves and other students. You know teachers are taking much time these days trying to solve conflicts between students. If students are trained to solve the conflict themselves, not only will they feel responsible citizens, they'll feel honored, they'll feel accepted, they'll feel valued.

[00:10:31]>> And these skills of leadership are what the society is looking for. So when I talk about BM mediation, I'm talking about empowering students very early in life to know how to deal with conflict.

[00:10:44]Look even at our courts right now.

[00:10:46]courts are going resolving disputes in a restorative way. They're embracing mediation. So this beer mediation is something that needs to be inculcated very early in the life of our students.

[00:10:56]In fact, I always tell people if we do not put these things in place then the situation is going to become worse than we are seeing right now. I think it's right time for the Kenyans to stop now.

[00:11:09]Let's not let's look for a different way an alternative way of dealing with conflict. Rather than coming up with uh ways of uh dealing with the indisipline that we have in school, why don't we empower our own students to have the resilience to have the skills to have the competency to be able to resolve those conflicts within themselves and within themselves and their colleagues within the school compound. If we can be able to manage that all these commission of inquiries we are picking policies we are writing can only be pieces of paper if we don't action already what we have like now this uh program of peer mediation.

[00:11:52]Do we have the capacity to deliver it?

[00:11:54]Of course yes. You know the last 5 years we have been working on training peer mediation tutors. The only thing we do not have in this country is a policy that impresses these peer mediation programs in our schools. The Ministry of Education has not taken this very seriously. We are chasing a problem to a different direction instead of facing what is here and dealing with it instantly. We have a solution with us.

[00:12:18]>> Okay.

[00:12:18]>> Why don't we adopt it?

[00:12:19]>> I hear you say you're because what you're talking about is that training amongst peers so that they can understand how to deal with a conflict situation. Yes. But if you look at the issues that are affecting students in school today and unfortunately this largely falls within the boarding schools largely that doesn't take away uh day schools from this but largely if we look at the school unrest right now that's the majority um of the of where the problem lies.

[00:12:46]>> It's against the backdrop of a system where children are to be seen and not heard.

[00:12:50]>> Yes.

[00:12:51]>> So I can be empowered as you like.

[00:12:54]>> Yes. and I can know how to deal with conflict situations.

[00:12:58]>> But when I go and I who am I telling that I have this particular problem and who is listening to me in a system that already seems like it has been fixed to not take into consideration what a student has to say. How do you work within those lines?

[00:13:11]>> Teachers themselves in our teacher training programs we should also uh incorporate conflict resolution skills. Most of the teachers who are leaving teacher schools, I'm sure they what they are being taught about is counseling, there's a very big difference between counseling and mediation because counseling is listening to the parties and assisting them to manage their own emotions.

[00:13:39]>> Mediations on the other hand goes a step further in it teaches you on how to approach and resolve conflict. So what teachers are being told usually in their teaching teachers training programs is how to do uh peer counseling.

[00:13:58]What we are saying there is a better way. In fact, the government should incalculate the change the syllabus of the training of teachers to include techniques on how to manage conflict because what I've seen in most schools teachers themselves have a challenge in as far as approaching and resolve conflicts are because we are thinking in our country we are thinking that the only best way of solving disputes is retribution punishment. Okay. And we can give punishment in different ways. Not only corporal punishment, different ways. But punishment is not the only way of resolving or assisting to to resolve conflicts in especially in our schools.

[00:14:36]We should also be in a position to embrace restorative systems of resolving disputes whereby we reconcile the interests of students or student teachers who have conflict within the school environment. Retribution even the court are moving away from retribution anyway. You see the courts are are embracing court and expediation they are encouraging private mediation why are we doing this if we are doing this if we are embracing restorative justice within the court system why don't we also encourage restorative justice within our schools you know you talk about something that one would say the tone that is set at the talk determines how that then trickles down because what we've just been treated to recently is even the response from um the principal secretary at the time uh was that of what you're talking about punishment and retribution for those who have done this we will arrest you you know anything about schools we will not close schools and that is the tone that is cascaded down all the way and students say if the principal doesn't hear us then where do we run to but then again you've mentioned fact that there is need for change of policy as well but again >> yes >> why is it so difficult for that to be picked if it is a clear and shest way of handling these problems that you find today. What is making it difficult for the ministry to pick that policy and put it as part and parcel of uh of its mandate pretty much you know in our community we are slow to change most people do not want to embrace change especially when it's brought about by people experts who are not in inverted commerce politically correct I will be in your station today trying to tell them something very important but it also depends on my status in society I'm an expert in this field. I have consulted enough as I have just told you. I met a number of experts in Boston, Massachusetts last week and I have talked about this issue about unrest in schools and every person I interviewed, I was at Harvard University and Southro University and others. Every expert that I talked to asked me does as your does your country embrace peer edition? Because if you go to Britain, you go to America, you even go to Brazil in Latin America, most schools have embraced peer mediation because they believe that to be able to build a society of citizens who are responsible, who are conflict competent, who are resilient, this education about uh knowing how to resolve conflicts early in life is a serious uh policy issue within any education system. So I believe that if the minister of education is listening right now and all the other stakeholders, it's high time that we embraced PMED in our schools. Do we have the expertise to assist them to do so? Of course, yes. Like now in MTI East Africa, we have been running a program for 5 years training peer mediation tutors. We have a program, we have a syllabus.

[00:17:39][clears throat] So it is important that as a country it's right it's it's now the right time to stop and look at it again. M >> it's now the right time to embrace peer mediation and we have enough expertise within the country to put these systems in place and even people from houses are willing to help us if we want to help ourselves but if we continue picking commissions of inquiry coming up with reports and shelving them until another incident happens I'll be coming to your studio again 10 years from now and we'll be talking about the same thing so we need to stop now and embrace this system we are ready to roll out peer mediation to our schools. And that time is now, >> not 10 years from now when 100 students have died through this unrest that we are seeing right now.

[00:18:30]>> Who would they be talking to?

[00:18:34]Understanding the students can bring their issues to whom? Remember that we operate within systems. Of course, >> who are they talking to?

[00:18:40]>> When we have a when we uh we establish a program of peer mediation in school, there are a number of things that we do.

[00:18:48]M first of all you don't go directly to the school you either talk to the board of governors the school management from there you train the teachers like there are number of schools where we have trained teachers will be peer mediation coordinators after that we consult the parents who allow their children to be trained as peer mediators you cannot train everybody within school just a few students spear mediators who will then be identified they will graduate and be identified to other students that when students have issues when they have problems within themselves, they can then bring it to the peer mediation uh mediators through a peer medication coordinator who is a teacher. So there's an elaborate program that can be put in school. What it requires is the support of the government and I'm talking about the ministry of health, >> a ministry of education. We need this to embrace it as a policy. We have tried it in private schools and it's working very well in some private schools, but those that's just a drop in the ocean. It's now important that the ministry of jugen takes it as a policy issue so that we can embrace it. We can put a pilot program within our country even for two years and try to pick a few schools and put it as a a pilot program. The results from that will show the ministry that this process really works. Not only does it help students become good leaders, they can transfer these skills outside the school gates to their own families.

[00:20:12]And there's no parent who will not like to see their students having these skills being a good leader and being able to resolve conflicts even outside the school compound once they are through with school. So it's a value adding for the students that we have not only for the purpose of resolving the kind kind of unrest that we have but it also adds the value of the students we have all the way to university >> and the the the the citizens life outside here.

[00:20:37]>> Where do parents fit in in this conversation? because um for a very long time it's been seen as if um parents I've sent my child to school even kazya limo you know but in this conversation you said uh we will go to schools and um speak with the boom who who then one would say is representative of parents right but for every individual parent out there how do they fit into this so that even at their homes they encourage peer mediation among their children because one would Okay. Um, if it's from that basic level, then extrapolating the same would be easy. You see, I just want to take you back and ask you how a parent feels.

[00:21:22]>> You just told me a few minutes ago that a parent went to school and identified one of his daughters as being part of the people who are planning to p the school >> and they had to pick them up.

[00:21:33]>> Yeah. You know parents are really disappointed when they find that one of their daughters or sons was involved in as other students have died. That thing really haunts the parents and they feel helpless. So I'm thinking we have a way of ensuring that we can empower our students to be able first of all to be calm, resilient under pressure and also be conflict competent. Not only will it save our parents from the kind of uh uh situation that they find themselves in, it will empower their their own children not be involved in these hinas acts because the lives of those children are permanently affected. The lives of the parents are permanently affected because when you send your son or daughter to school, what you are expecting is to see a person who s you are looking for success. There's nobody who is more interested in the success of their children than their parents.

[00:22:24]>> So you have paid school fees. You have bought all the books and you believe that your child will graduate from school and become an important person in society. You only receive a call one morning and we be told that your your son or your daughter was involved in arson and other students have died. That is heartbreaking for the parents. To avoid a situation like that, I think the people who should support peer mediation are the parents. Even if they are told to pay some money to ensure that their children are trained to become peer mediators. This is a skill that the children can carry home after school.

[00:22:58]This is a ch a skill that can make their children more confident, more resilient, more calm, have empathy and grow into responsible citizens in future. M >> so it's important that parents themselves embrace this and support the ministry of education and the teachers even private schools to ensure that we put these systems in place and that time is now not 10 years from now when we have 200 students dead some questions may come in because it would seem as though a similar thread of these issues runs from institution to institution and we've heard them I mean in the last couple of weeks we've heard them over and over again the quality of food the quantity of food um um the the the method of discipline, not enough books uh in school for them to able to do their job, overcrowding in some of these spaces. These are the things that these students are complaining about. That means they operate in a system that has already established a certain way of doing things. Now, I can come to you and say it in the politest way possible. I can come to you and I can complain as somebody who was brought up very well. But if the system has already been set in a certain way, I would imagine that there's very little I would say no matter how rude or how politely I say it or bring it up. These are some of the things that peer mediation does train on.

[00:24:21]>> Yes.

[00:24:22]>> But those are the things that I have issues with. How do you turn those things around if the system is not willing to change them or hasn't changed them in years? And mind you, these issues that we talk about occur in the second term. In the second term, it's interesting because I said I'm actually going to go and check and see did we see fires coming up in first or third term and we didn't. From what I know and what I have seen, even read in your newspapers, it usually occurs when students are almost starting to do their exams and they are under pressure.

[00:24:58]So we are not saying that peer mediation will eliminate the of the overstretching of students in institutions or improve the infrastructure in schools or improve the kind of foods that they eat those are challenges that most schools are facing.

[00:25:13]>> But what I'm saying is this even when pe students complain >> the way they deliver their message when they are trained it will not occur in such a way that it can cause turmoil in schools. In fact, when we train students, not only students because we also train teachers who are one of those students, then they they they find better ways of resolving this because then they are able to understand other people's feelings. You know, let me tell you one thing uh uh about conflict.

[00:25:42]>> Conflict sometimes is about perception.

[00:25:46]If I draw a W in front of me here, >> it's a problem and I ask you what type of letter I've drawn, you without thinking, you will tell me it's an M.

[00:25:55]And if I ask your friend on the other side, he will tell me it's a three. If there was somebody on this side, he say an an E. None of us is stupid or crazy.

[00:26:05]We are all right from our own perspective.

[00:26:09]We have put a lot of pressure in our schools because we do not have enough infrastructure. Sometimes the food is bad because that's what the school can afford according to the fees that is available. But this is a problem that we know exists. What do we do? Do we send our children home? Do we ban the school?

[00:26:25]Is that the the is that the the best solution to resolve the dispute? The issue is that our children will be taught to be calm under pressure because we know those pressures exist to be resilient. And you see as teachers try to find better ways of managing a very difficult situation, you'll find that students who have already been trained in peer mediation can be on board to work together to find solutions together with the teachers. those ones that are available. You make a bad situation better by having working with the students in a collaborative way.

[00:27:01]>> What we are missing is collaboration because even in conflict we know what what she's saying is very clear. Schools are going undergoing very difficult times because there's no they do not have enough money. They don't have adequate infrastructure. The food may not be what the children are eating at home. Those that's a problem that we know. But how how do we approach that conflict in a collaborative way that may not result into what we are seeing right now? Because the answer the answer the answer is not panning up schools or beating up teachers or closing schools.

[00:27:33]The answer is trying to look at conflict from different perspectives and trying to resolve it in a collaborative way.

[00:27:39]And the only way we can solve those conflicts in a collaborative way is having both parties being conflict competent. Both the students and the teachers. So if we are training students, teachers equally require some kind of training on how to approach conflict because you may not you may have very resilient students and very highly conflict incompetent teachers that mathematics will not match. So both bodies require some kind of training so that we can be able to handle conflicts which exist which you cannot wish away in a collaborative manner.

[00:28:09]>> Yeah, that's the purpose of empowering our students to that effect. You've mentioned that you've trained a few schools um the p some private schools in the country and um in that training maybe you can just tell us what did you find was pressing uh from all stakeholders so parents teachers and even the students themselves and after going through the training uh what are some of the successes perhaps that everybody needs to know or we can learn.

[00:28:38]Yeah. Once students have gone through training, first of all they have what we call emotional literacy.

[00:28:49]They have more they handle matters more maturely. They are resilient when they are working under pressure because that's what usually happens.

[00:28:57]>> But what what is the initial problem that students raise as being a concern?

[00:29:02]>> The the initial problem is that first of all they the teachers do not listen to them. they are ignored. They are [clears throat] not valued. They don't find that their their proposals or their opinions are valued because they are regarded as students who should listen and learn. So when sometimes they complain, they do not get an environment where their complaints are listened to.

[00:29:25]Number one. Number two, they feel that they are being put under a lot of pressure. Especially when exams are coming close, teachers are drilling them for the purpose of passing exam. And you know our children are not as resilient as us. We we grew in very tough environments that this this is another generation which we must also understand they can't go through a lot of pressure.

[00:29:50]But let me also tell you they have to pass exam. Exactly. That's what we want.

[00:29:54]But at the same time the way we treat them you know when you value somebody it also even works at the workplace >> when your employees are valued when they are treated well they may not even think about salary increment.

[00:30:08]>> The employees you see agitating for salary increment or agitating for good conditions of service is when they think they are being oppressed and they are being misused by the employer. And the same thing applies to our students. If students can feel valued, they can feel accepted and respected even in very difficult conditions, our students will collaborate with teachers in resolving the existing problems. But when they are ignored, when they are devalued, when they are treated as small people who do not have an opinion, definitely they are going to become they want to to to resist. And the kind of resistance it can be subtile resistancy or even physical resistance. and students have resorted to physical resistance by banning schools. So, it's good that we now calm down >> and look at these things differently.

[00:30:59]>> That's what brings me to your studio and I hope people are listening. I have done research. I've gone through other countries where these programs are being implemented. They are working very well and now at least it's a matter of building capacity and getting collaboration with the from the ministry of education getting funding from donors and we put this thing down into practice and the time is now. In those schools that you've um taken the message right um now that is being it's been received and is being implemented. Yes. What are some of the changes that one would say like the immediate winds that those schools have managed um to tell you that this is the change that we see of the training that you brought? The playgrounds are calmer, >> grasses are calm. You can see the peace which is within the dometry. There are fewer expulsions, fewer suspensions.

[00:31:52]teachers get more time to concentrate on teaching than resolving petty issues within the the students because students are capable of doing it on their own.

[00:32:01]The advantages are so many only that we have not sensitized the public to see that. So those schools that have embraced be mediation even the performance is better because students are confident they are able to concentrate because they have lesser problems and they are able to withstand pressure most of the time.

[00:32:19]>> Yeah. because of the training.

[00:32:20]>> And so you can actually see that just it's not just teaching students on this peer education to realize how you can actually solve conflicts better but that on the recip on the other side as well that those who administer the process those who are vanguards uh saying that you know we are the ones who are the stakeholders here caring for these children that we also need to understand where they're coming from.

[00:32:42]>> We train them too. So it's not only limited to still when we putting a program in school we train the teachers sometimes we sensitize the board of governors and the the parents also parents need to understand the importance of this so we have a seminar with the parents before we bring this process in place so it's a multistakeholder thing once this thing has been accepted and impressed and you have sensitized all the parties enough it flows is there enough time because they say that it takes twice the amount of time to unlearn something that has been learned uh maybe even three times but at least we've read that it's twice.

[00:33:18]So if you've been doing something for 10 20 years that it's going to take you double that time to unlearn these behaviors which have been compacted which have been in you that there are some schools at this point where a a student will come to you and actually tell you I'm not feeling well today the default answer is you see that's the default answer. um somebody comes to you and says actually I I have an emergency. The default uh thinking is that this student is lying. How do you unlearn some of those things without with us realizing also that those responses that come to students?

[00:33:59]They don't sit well with the student and that's what leads to them saying you know what these people don't listen to me anyway. So here's a situation whereby I'm going to char. Now in neuroscience which is the science of how human beings think we are told that if you repeat something continuously for 21 days >> becomes a habit.

[00:34:18]>> If it becomes a habit >> so the first thing that the teachers and the p the school community need to learn is to embrace this issue to do with peer mediation.

[00:34:29]>> I know they they are used to you know change to be emotionally intelligent you must also be ready to embrace change in any environment. And what options do we have? Do we just allow this situation to continue? Students dying, destroying property.

[00:34:44]>> Now we have reached a point where this doesn't help. We have tried and I, as I told you, I just wanted to tell you a few statistics which Kenyans know very well.

[00:34:52]>> In 1991, that's when we had our first incident at St. Kito >> 1998. Bombolu 1999 high school 2001 Changuli where 67 students died. 2017 moy girls 20 24 in Russia inside in Russia 2026ishi a total of almost 200 students have died and are those deaths not enough to in now tell people that we have to have things changed >> and of course there are multiple other incidents where people may not have died that property was destroyed but I mean there are at least >> 50 other schools that have gone through damage through fire because of these Same thing.

[00:35:34]>> Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I'm saying it's high time now we sit down a little even in your own household. If you see something is not working. I think you step aside a little and look at it differently. Right now I know you have said there's those teachers who believe that they corporal punishment is the only way that works in schools. And I heard so many parents saying let's go back to where we were >> boarding schools. Yeah.

[00:35:59]>> Let me tell you corporal punishment doesn't help at all. And if this has been discovered, most countries in America, if you kill somebody's child, you go to jail. And those that we don't have such things happening. What we need to do is to embrace the culture of tolerance.

[00:36:18]That's the most important thing. Number one. Number two, let's realize that we can only resolve disputes through collabor collaboration. Let's make our parents, our teachers and our students conflict competent >> because unless we realize that if we still insist that children must be k they must be punished they must be put under pressure we'll just continue with these same trends and when I began this interview I told you if we continue doing things the same way and expecting different results it is clear insanity so do Kenyans wish to continue with insanity or do we want to change things and have these things stopped the time for stopping this mayhem is now if they listen and we have the capacity to do that. We are ready to assist the government and the ministry of education put these systems in place and we have been working though people have not been knowing we have been working at the background training tutors training students in peer mediation. So if the ministry wants to run this program and run it now and put this mayhem to the end we can do it right now. But if we still believe we can continue writing reports and constituting commissions and taking a cup of tea in hotels, coming up with reports which you do not implement, let's continue doing so and we continue seeing many more students dying and many institutions being burned to the ground.

[00:37:36]Time to stop is now.

[00:37:37]>> You see, you've talked about implementation and implementation is where the crux of the matter is. Yes.

[00:37:42]Because like you rightfully said from 1991 we've seen several committees that have been put in place task forces to look into the problems and every other task forces report has had similar reports uh with relevant um implementation mechanisms to change the situation but implementation has remained being zero. What you're talking about now is a new structure, a new way of looking at things that again would call for implementation of the same from a government policy level. You know, why do I say that? Because if we're talking about peer mediation where for example uh children have said, students have said >> yes, >> in my home, my parents don't don't feed me weevils. When I come to school, I don't want to eat weevils. Yes. And the mediation committee has arrived at a conclusion that the source of the problem we have is because the students are being fed weevils and they have a problem with that. It is escalated. But at the end of the day, the government has to plug in and ensure that capitation gets to school on time and it is enough so that schools are able to procure good food uh for the students.

[00:38:56]It is a chain. It's a chain reaction that you've just sorted there.

[00:38:59]Therefore, government must be plugged in.

[00:39:03]>> Yes.

[00:39:05]>> Um, how likely is that to happen when it comes especially to the implementation?

[00:39:09]>> What I'm talking about? The first thing is recognition by the ministry of education. Okay. That's the most important thing. The ministry of education if it does not have capacity to handle this. It should signpost schools to peer mediation institutions that can be implemented outside there.

[00:39:25]We can work in collaboration. Number two, they should give guidance to schools on how to implement these programs because governments are there to put up policy.

[00:39:35]>> That does not because we can solve the dispute by getting good food in our schools but good food does not mean that the exams are not coming next week and therefore we are under pressure.

[00:39:45]>> We can even create rice. We can make our schools like hotels but if we [laughter] still like but but but if we still are having exams at the end of the the month and students have to sit and pass or fail that doesn't take pressure away. So I'm trying to say that then we should import uh import impaired conflict resolution in teachers training institutions. Number three we should also in integrate conflict resolutions to youth things like scouts youth groups. This is a culture that we must start implementing right now. If students have gone through school and yet they have not gotten those skills, we can get them there. We should also enhance public awareness. Unless we tell the we we insensitize the public about this process, public sometimes are the ones who can compel the government to put things into policy. So for example, if if the parents know that if their students or their children are trained as peer mediators, these things will reduce in school. I think the [clears throat] parents can put pressure on the government to put these systems in place.

[00:40:45]>> So sometimes we have to rely on parents because we have parent associations for example we have uh teacher teacher teach teachers unions okay like copet and others if they embrace this and they realize that this is the only way we can get out of where we are right now I'm sure they can push the government to change policy. So we have a multistakeholders who will take who will make this thing put this thing into place. But can it be done quickly?

[00:41:15]That's the question you asking because we are in a problem already. Of course.

[00:41:18]Yes.

[00:41:19]>> Well, the thing is interesting that the schools seem to have a system in place whereby there has been a cascading of power.

[00:41:28]>> Yes.

[00:41:29]>> So you have the school heads and all of that. But then amongst the students you already have this thing. You have the prefect system. We have captains, house captains, you know, sector captains, all of that. So there seems to be an understanding that there can be the cascading of information and communication along these lines. So what has been the pro? It seems that now that has been bastardized where it has turned to be that these individuals who are now in fact right now I think second term is where a lot of these folks are elected isn't it where these [clears throat] students are elected as these represent representatives.

[00:42:00][gasps] It seems that there has bastardized the system whereby now these individuals become snoops for the administration as opposed to actually being communicators and helpers of the flow of information.

[00:42:14]How can those uh how can those mechanisms that have already been set up be used for some of these things that you're talking about?

[00:42:23]>> Exactly. You know when I was in school in 1980s early 1980s prefects were like kings >> they were treated like kings more than even teachers prefects would take you to their cube and can you and they will give you corporal punishment without the teachers knowing especially when we were in form one we would be trained there's something they used to call monolization these things have changed right now you can't do that the students that we have right now so what I'm telling the schools to do right now for example in beer mediation if we can just start with the student leaders.

[00:42:57]>> Mhm.

[00:42:58]>> Okay. If student leaders, prefects and captains are trained to be Ber mediators, I think that will be the beginning because we may not be able to train the whole school. So if we can just I select those when they are being elected they are trained to be peer mediators. One thing they will be very calm they will be conflict competent.

[00:43:15]They will have a lot of resilience. They will have what we call emotional emotional uh intelligence >> intelligence. And these people will then be able to handle other students very well. And when disputes arise even before they come to the teachers offices, the prefect will already have handled it.

[00:43:31]>> So that's why what I'm saying that will be for example a lowhanging fruit is that what we call the doctrine of a low hanging fruit. The lowhanging fruit now could be let's train our student leaders. immediately they are trained they they elected as leaders because if these people are trained what do you hear from other schools because I've had things from schools that I respected most these very big big schools the students go there they go through a lot of problems they are mistreated by prefects who manhandled them mistreat them and this information cannot get to the teachers because the teachers have told them fix your mothers within the the doaties this is where this kind of resistancy comes from so if we can be able to train our prefects in peer medication as a lowhanging fruit past then we can cascade this to other students within the community within the school community. So I think what you have just mentioned is very important because students sometimes are are elected as prefects and then they are given some kind of authority that's beyond what they are able to handle and this now is what brings resistancy from other students. So if we can start by training our prefects and captains within the schools I'm sure that will be a starting point and it may help us manage what we are dealing with right now. How does religious institutions tap into this? Because they are as well respected in the society on their role.

[00:44:44]In many schools, when you talk about guidance and counseling departments, most of teachers there are usually CRA teachers, right?

[00:44:51]>> But as well when you read uh the holy books, spare the road, spare the child, >> how do we how can they tap into this space to be um front runners on the same as well? There's something you have said there which is very interesting. Spare the road, spoil the child. I think that is really being misinterpreted from the Bible.

[00:45:09]>> Yes.

[00:45:10]>> You know what we mean by the road?

[00:45:11][laughter] >> The road is something I'm saying like peer mediation, educating the students to be able to manage their conflict. The road doesn't mean the cane. You know, we literally translated it into a cane and people are saying we are not gaining our students. That's why they are behaving this way. So what I'm saying is that religious institutions really need help.

[00:45:29]I'm encouraging people even in Sunday schools not when children come to school youth programs within churches because we have that kind of youth programs if we can also introduce peer mediation there we can assist the schools because when children are on leave in leave days when they go to church they if they find those programs there I'm sure they will come back to school being more prepared to deal with conflict when they face it.

[00:45:54]So that's why I told you this a multi- stakeholder issue. We all need to come together. You know in any country even in America you will find we have Democrats and Republicans who are fighting every day. But when there's a conflict sometimes a serious problem they come together and they forget about their party positions and they work together to resolving a national emergency. What we have right now on the table today is an emer national emergency. So all stakeholders need to come in together and for example this gem that I'm introducing right now all as uh uh peer mediation let us all embrace it and put it into system if we can do it between now and December I want you to invite me here two years down the line to this same same studio >> and you tell me if we will ever be having what we are dealing with right now. People may think I'm just a false prophet, but I can tell you I have seen what has happened in other countries. We can also fix it right here. You know, we can come into this studio and talk about politics, talk about many other things and then try to politicize the kind of mess we are having in schools right now.

[00:47:00]It doesn't help us. The real thing that really what needs to be done is action.

[00:47:05]We have work to do and the solution is educating, empowering and valuing our students in school on how to resolve conflicts in a productive and collaborative way. Once we fix that, we fix the problem and we shall not be talking about it again. Absolutely. No other student will die, no school will be banned so long as the children really understand who they are and how to deal with conflict. definitely must be considered and and taken and we're glad that you're able to share um a lot of these things with us this morning because for everything there's a solution and [clears throat] other things may have been tried and didn't work.

[00:47:38]>> Yes, >> perhaps it's time. James, thank you for joining us this morning. Uh Wii for to share a lot of these issues uh with us and a good way to end the week for for thought to to think about and now just not think about but actually do and engage. Yes.

[00:47:53]>> Asant, thank you. And for everybody who was part of the situation room this week, thank you for being here.