This analysis provides a sharp reality check on the legal limits of self-defense, correctly emphasizing that proportionality is a requirement rather than a choice. It serves as a sobering reminder that escalating a minor physical altercation into a lethal encounter is legally indefensible.
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BREAKING! Karmelo Anthony FOUND GUILTY (Defense Attorney Breaks It Down)Added:
Heat. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> Willie D live.
>> What's up, family? Well, the jury has spoken in the case of Carmelo Anony's murder trial, and they have found him guilty of murder, rejecting his claim of self-defense.
I am here to discuss this case and the verdict with attorney Dennis Sperling. Uh Dennis, are are you there?
Looking for attorney Dennis Sperling.
There he is. Yeah.
Here we are, man. Um so you called it.
>> Yeah, >> you called it.
>> Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. Just >> so now now that um now that you know the verdict is in, what piece of evidence do you believe ultimately convinced the jury to find him guilty?
>> Well, Willie, like I was saying in our earlier conversation, the question is not whether or not um Carmelo Anthony had the right to defend himself. it was whether or not the the the use of deadly force was justified.
And in this particular situation, under the Texas statute that we talked about, deadly force is necessary if you feel like uh your life is in danger or you're in danger of serious bodily harm. And being pushed by someone does not rise to the level of serious bodily horn or or or what should make a person feel like their life is in reasonable danger. That's what it was.
And the statue is pretty clear. And when you sit in those jury rooms, the judge, well, first of all, the judge is going to read all of the jury charges into the record in front of the jury. They're going to sit there and they're going to read 10, 15, 20 pages of jury charges and they're going to give you your instructions and you simply have to follow those instructions. If you get this, you have this. If you hear this, you have that. If you find this, you don't have that. And that's what happened, man. You know, and and it's the jury's determination to determine what are the facts or not. That's why they call it the finder of fact or the trial of fact. What they believe and what they didn't believe. And in this situation, they believe that Carmelo Anthony was not in fear of losing his life. And as I said earlier in our previous conversation, I don't see where he was. Uh the the Metcap didn't have a knife. He didn't have a gun. Uh Carmelo wasn't on the ground getting stomped out. Um you know, and you know, he all he did was push him. And I get the fact that he touched him. And if somebody touches you, you have a right to use ordinary force under Texas law. He could have got up and stole off on him. He could have hit him with an uppercut. He could have kicked him in the in in the groin. He could have done a lot of stuff. But to pull out a blade and stab him, that that's not justified. That's not a justified use of force. That's what happened.
So, uh, Camello is now facing five to 99 years in prison. you. What do you think now? What do you think that sentence might look like?
>> They're going to consider the fact that these boys didn't know each other. There was no uh Carmelo doesn't have a a a um he doesn't have a criminal record.
Otherwise, you know, non troublesome kid. No past. comes from a good family, educated young man. Um, they're going to consider the fact that he was concerned.
They're going to consider the fact that he did not necessarily, he wasn't looking for trouble. He was just sitting there minding his business. They're going to consider all of that. And so, I don't think he's going to get 99 years, but I don't think he's going to get five years either.
>> But if anybody should qualify for the five years, I mean, that's what the five years I think should be. If you if you're gonna say if you're gonna say five to 99 years, No, no, hear me out now. If you're gonna say five to 99 years, what is the damn five years for if it's not for somebody like Carmelo Anthony who was a model student, a model citizen up until that point?
Uh five years is I mean, you know, the truth is you get probation. I mean, there there's all of that's available, but that's not gonna be available to this young man. Not in Frisco, Texas.
Okay? That's not it's not gonna happen for Carmelo. Uh you can say whatever you want to say, but I'm thinking 20 I'm thinking somewhere between 20 20 years.
That's what I'm thinking. Now, uh it's reserved for people >> uh who who who I don't even want to I don't want to speculate because I don't know. I don't want to I don't want to speculate. What I want to just stick to the fact is this. Um the jury found him guilty. And the reason that they found him guilty because the use of force in that situation was unnecessary. And so that's why his um his self-defense claim failed and it was going to fail. That's what I'm thinking, brother. You know, and you know, I'm still reeling from the guilty verdict myself. I'm still trying to gather my thoughts because we've been living with this for a year and a half.
And we already living in a racially hostile climate. People are at each other's throat. You got this clown up in Tennessee telling black people to stop chimping out and he shoots a black man.
Then you had the little boy over in South Carolina. He trying to accused of stealing some damn water and get run down and shot in the back. And that dude, Mr. cow gets a not-uilty verdict.
So, you know, man, I'm a father. You know what I'm saying?
>> Call that sucker mister. Man, mister is reserved for people that you don't call that chump mister.
>> Yeah. I think but you but you mentioning that uh underscores the fact that >> this is not just a situation where black people are under attack by white folks.
I mean, this is, you know, that that guy was Asian. And speaking of that, you know, you look at these racial uh disparities that go on in these little small towns. Like if you look at Colin County where the where this trial took place, it is 53% white, 21% Asian, 16% Hispanic, and only 11% black. Ain't no way a black person is going to get a fair trial in a county like that.
uh when they're accused of killing a white person, you're not going to get a fair trial. And that's the fundamental problem with this country. When you look at the when you look at the the way that this this ch these charges came about in the first place, it took the it took the uh the prosecution, it took them months to come up with these charges. Anytime anytime they have a slam dunk, man, it's just like when they have a slam dunk on video, they show it immediately. But when they don't have one, they got the doctor and manufactur something. I do believe these charges were absolutely manufactured. And what happened to the video of this? That boy Eddie, I understand that was that called Carmelo over to the tent, who I believe set Carmelo up in the first place. allegedly he had recorded the incident. What happened to the recording of it? You know, kids record everything these days.
Anytime there's a slight confrontation, they they start recording. Where's the recording? You can't tell me it's not a recording out there. And I do believe that at some point that recording is going to surface.
>> Well, Willie D, I I can't speculate with you. All I know is what the jury heard.
And the jury heard uh they heard the evidence. Now, I can go over uh what I think happened and you and I talked about this earlier in the preliminary leading up to this show, but uh for the most part, man, you know, when we there's a body. Now, that's Let's start with the fact that we do know that Carmelo stated that he killed him. He said that the office, I believe it's officer Alvarez, um I'm sorry, officer Cortez, who is the uh teaching uh the uh the uh the campus resource officer. He said, "Yeah, this not alleged. I did it." So, he admitted that he killed him. He admitted that he stabbed him. Now, that doesn't rise to the level of murder by itself because murder is a legal determination. Murder is a legal definition and under the Texas Penal Code uh section 19.02, it says a person commits murder if he intentionally or knowingly causes the death of another person. I think that's clear. Okay. A person commits murder if he intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life. And that's what he did. So if you pull a knife and you use it during a confrontation and somebody stop dies and that's going to be murder and the jury agree with that.
Now, capital murder is something different. That's murdering somebody while you're doing another crime. It could be kidnapping. It could be killing multiple people. And then there are special exceptions if you do something to somebody under 10 years old. If you kill somebody or murder somebody while you're hired, that's going to be a capital murder case. You're getting a death penalty. Now, when we talk about manslaughter, the old saying is you do something reckless or you do it in the hot blood without a chance for cool reflection.
Okay? Obviously, the jury didn't think it was Huh.
>> I never heard that saying before, but I >> Yeah, you do something in in passionate a passionate killer. You come come home and catch somebody you love doing something with somebody that ain't you, and you and then you decide to unalign both of them or one of them. That's that's called manslaughter. And that that's what happens sometimes. Um but uh you know but but then of course you also have situations where you didn't intend to kill somebody. You did it in a reckless way. That's that's manslaughter. Also speeding down the highway, you know, you lose control of your vehicle and somebody dies. Okay, manslaughter. You shouldn't have been speeding. Now again, the self-defense, which is what people are are dwelling on, you know, again, Carmelo didn't take the stance. How is the jury supposed to know what's on his mind if he didn't actually take the stand to discuss how he was feeling at this time? Everything we're talking about is speculation.
Yeah, he could have been afraid or he could have been angry. He could have feared for his life or he just could have been ego tripping because he didn't want somebody pushing him out the seat.
Maybe it was some little cute girls around. He didn't want to seem like a punk. I don't know. Cuz he never took the stand. Now, his lawyers, of course, raised the idea that this was a self-defense. They talked about how big the other boy was. They talked about the physical evidence. They talked about the size difference in the two of them. Um, they talked about the fact that he sat there the whole time. And he also talked about the fact that Austin Metaf put hands on Carmelo first. And see, that's great. You raised that. But again, Carmelo never actually took the stand.
Now, here's the thing we have to address. Texas Penal Code section 9.31 ordinary self-defense. Okay. A person can use force when he reasonably believes force is immediately necessary to protect himself against another person's unlawful force. So if Austin pushed him, if he grabbed him, if he tried to move him, okay, then Carmelo had the right to use force in return. He could have used a proportionate force.
He could have pushed him back. He could have put hands on him the minute he dude pushed him. He could have kicked him in the groin. He could have stomped on his foot. Uh he could have threw a haymaker and knocked him out. All right. But see, using deadly force is something very different. And see, that's addressed by Texas Penal Code section 9.32. It says deadly force is justified only. Let me say that again. only only if the person would be justified in using force under section 9.31 which is what I read above and reasonably believes force is immediately necessary to protect himself against another person's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force or to prevent a certain serious crime like aggravated kidnapping, murder, sex, sexual assault, aggravated assault. So, in other words, if somebody break in your house and they trying to they trying to do something to you, they got a gun and you shoot them and they die right there in your house, that's one thing. If they run out your house and you chase them halfway up the block and you shoot them down like a dog, that's no longer self-defense, Willie D., that's something else. Okay? And so, that's why we have to understand now in this particular situation, we talking about the actual use of the force itself. Okay? And that's the problem that we have in this case. See, you see where when when when you talking about deadly force coming from Austin's side, okay, where's the weapon? Where's the knife?
Where's the gun? Where's the evidence that Carmelo >> his hands was the weapon?
>> Go ahead, Willie. I want to hear.
>> I'm just saying. Look, look, look, look, look. Okay. So, my hands are registered, right? My hands are registered.
>> Okay.
>> And so, uh, if my hands can be registered, his hands can be registered.
>> They Well, they weren't registered, Willie.
>> Well, the hands can be dead.
>> They could be. And if it was a fifth, guess what, Willie? We all be drunk.
Okay. But that's not the evidence that the jury heard. Texas law defines serious bodily injury as an injury that creates a substantial risk of death.
Pushing somebody even if they was you were pushing them like a linebacker or a lineman. That is not considered something that's creates a substantial risk of death. You might fall down and scrape your knee. Okay? It's not going to cause death. It's not going to even cause serious permanent disfigure figment in this case. It's not going to cause long-term impairment of your body, organ, your brain, something like that.
So, the question isn't whether Camello uh uh was embarrassed or whether or not he didn't want to get fronted or in front of these girls or whoever was there or he was angry. Uh you know, it it isn't even whether Austin put hands on the first. The question is whether Carmelo reasonably believed deadly force was immediately necessary. I don't see that. And the jury didn't see that.
Okay. Carmelo was not being stomped out on the ground by five people beating him unconscious. Okay. Austin and his homeboys didn't pull up with baseball bats and knives and guns to try to beat him down. Okay. This wasn't some grown man beating up a child in the middle of a track meet. It was this one boy pushed another boy. This is what this is. This happened in broad daylight at a football stadium between two 17-year-old football rivals. Austin was wrong. He shouldn't have put hands on the boy. He shouldn't have pushed him. He shouldn't have tried to push him uh out the tent. He shouldn't have done that. But under Texas law, that does not justify using deadly force. He should have pushed him back. He should have swung on them. But you can't pull a knife and stab a person. That's deadly force. can't do that. And see, that's what the jury had a hard time with. If the jury even wanted to acquit this young man, even if they did, they would have a hard time. Okay? And a lot of people confuse this whole thing, no duty to retreat. In other words, stand your ground. All right? If if a person has a right to be where they are, hasn't provoked anybody, again, isn't commit committing any criminal activity, the law says you're not required to retreat before using force or deadly force. I get that. You don't you don't have to retreat. But no, but no duty to retreat does not mean you have a free license to kill. You still have to meet the deadly force standard. You still have to be you still have to reasonably believe deadly force is immediately necessary. And the jury said it wasn't.
>> Okay. To your point, Dennis. Maris McGlaclin. Remember him?
>> I don't, brother. I don't remember.
>> This Maris Mlakton, uh, he was shot by Michael Drea [snorts] outside of convenience store in Clear Water, Florida. Mhm.
>> This is the guy who was inside of the store with his small son >> and his wife was outside parked in a handicap spot.
>> This guy, the white guy goes over to the car >> and you know starts harassing her. And so when her husband comes out, the husband tells her, "Hey, you know, this guy is harassing me, blah blah blah."
And the husband forcibly pushes this guy to the ground. He pushes him. Guy falls to the ground. He comes up. Boom. And he hits Maris one time in the chest. Kills him instantly.
>> Okay.
>> And uh this guy uh went to court, got convicted, and he's in prison right now.
>> So let me see about I think I remember this case. So this is the Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I'm just I'm just saying to your point, >> they you know he he tried to use the stand your ground defense because you know Florida is notorious for letting people get away with stand your ground but they said particular incidents >> this was not a stand your ground because you did not return force. You you didn't return force with force. You you used more force than was necessary to stop this guy from uh attacking you.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. And you equate that situation where we dealing with these two kids in the football stands.
>> No, no. What I'm No, what I'm what I'm equating is the push the push wasn't deadly. So you said you said that >> Austin Medaf's push was not deadly. It was not a deadly force. He was he pushed him and uh therefore um uh what's his name? Carmelo's life was not in danger.
>> So what I'm saying is that these people use the same defense that this guy tried to use the same basically the white guy if you if you reverse the roles the white guy is now acting as Carmelo Anthony. Mhm.
>> He was pushed and he pulled out gun and shot the guy >> and he ended up in prison.
>> Okay, >> that's what I'm saying. Carmelo, >> he pulled out a knife and stabbed the guy >> and now he's going to prison.
>> Okay. Well, I'll be honest with you. You know, these are that's Florida. This is Texas. I haven't looked at the Florida statue. I don't know what he was charged with, but I can tell you what the jury did today. They found Carmelo Anthony guilty of murder. And I'm explaining to you to to everybody why they found him guilty of murder. Because they could not justify the use of deadly force in that situation. They couldn't justify somebody pushes you on the schoolyard and you haul off and stab them. Where we do that at? You know how many times I've been pushed on the schoolyard? You can't haul off and kill somebody because they push you. And I'm not even talking to you as an attorney right now. I'm talking with you common sense. What if you in the Walmart and somebody pushed you? Are you now entitled to haul off and pull your pistol out and and and put uh two in the chest and one in the head?
I think that's a bit excessive. I think it's a bit excessive, Willie D. My opinion.
>> Okay. What I'm saying is that is a bit excessive.
>> Put your hands on somebody, you don't get to determine the level of force that they use to defend themselves. And I'm saying even if they're wrong in that situation, even if they're wrong, even if legally they're wrong, you put yourself, you created the situation. You put yourself if if Austin don't put his hands on Carmelo. Austin is at home or he's at in at college uh preparing for a test partying kicking it with some girl uh hanging out with his buddies doing whatever college kids do. Maybe maybe maybe he's homesick and missing some home cooking from mom. Whatever.
>> I agree. Yeah, he shouldn't put his hands on it. I agree with that.
>> That has to be some liability on his behalf >> clearly. and and and and and that and Carmelo Anthony would have been justified in teeing off on him and trying to knock the be Jesus out of him.
Try to knock all his teeth out of his mouth. That's what I'm saying. But the but that would be justified. What you can't do is pull out a knife and stab somebody. Somebody put hands on me.
I'mma I'mma try to I'mma try to I'mma try to uh give them a two-piece from hell. That's what you get. That's called a proportionate response. What you cannot do, brother, what you cannot do is pull out a blade or pull out a pistol or go for a dangerous weapon and and and kill somebody. You can't do that in this society. Yeah. We regulate that behavior. And see, that's what I'm trying to get at, Willie. You can't we cannot you you the the the the response has to be proportionate. If your life is not in danger, you cannot escalate a situation where you take somebody's life.
You can't do it. We don't do that in this society. And that's it. That's what the jury said. You could be mad. They could be mad if they want to, but that's what the jury said. That's what the law said.
>> Dennis, I go ahead, brother. Yes, sir.
>> I absolutely agree with you legally. I get it. I understand because I I brought you on because you're the legal expert, not me.
So that's why you're here, you know, and so I respect I respect everything that you're saying.
>> Yeah.
>> I am telling you that that might be the legal standard, but in reality, if you put your hands on somebody, then it has to be considered. They they have to take into consideration a person's reasonable reactions. If like you said, if somebody put your hands on you, they put your hands on you, they push you or whatever, you gonna try to dust them off, right?
>> Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, honestly, if I feel like somebody's trying to Now, bro, I'm be honest. You and I a different age at this point. You know, you and I are trying to walk away from conflict at this point because like you said, we have we have responsibilities.
We have people depending on us. But you know, younger people, the 17 year old, we got two 17 year olds, their mind, their brains aren't even fully developed till they get 25.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> And so the the message that I'm trying to explain to these young people is you need to control yourself. No matter what happens, you have to act as a reasonable person because you're gonna end up like Carmelo Anthony. Did he win? I don't think he won that conflict.
>> He about to go he got guilty. He about to go to jail for 20 years. let us know what what he probably should have did. I bet if you ask him again, would it have been better to walk away from that conflict or go ahead and pull out that blade and st I bet he would be think I bet he would give you a different kind of response right now if he got any sense.
>> You're absolutely right. He would give a different response. I believe give a different response.
>> I would give a different response after in the aftermath. I don't know what I will do in a particular situation because I just don't know. I know what I would like to do. I know what should be the smartest thing like you're saying, the reasonable thing to do is the lawful thing to do. I understand that what I should do, but I just don't know exactly what I would do. It depends on what my day has been looking like, what's on my mind, what's happening. Let me take let me let me just make let me land this as Jasmine uh would say >> the thing is that conflict is costly.
This is why >> this is why at our age we try to avoid conflict because we've lived long enough to know that conflict is costly. Even if you win, you might lose.
>> Yeah.
>> Camelo won the fight. He loses the war because he's going to prison. So, and even if he even if he got he was found not guilty, he has the burden of having to have his family uprooted from the community in which he was growing up in and they was building a life.
>> He has now the jacket on his back as a murderer for the rest of his life.
>> Yeah.
>> That's going that name recognition is going to impact his family and anybody that carries the name Anthony. uh especially anybody that's associated with him, his kids are going to be affected by this decision. Uh so, and then had he uh had he been uh acquitted or never charged at all, perhaps there's somebody that's a family member or maybe even a friend that might want some revenge. So now you got to look now you got to watch your back for the rest of your life. You got to always be on guard. So, I understand that. I truly understand that conflict is costly. This is why I try to avoid all of these suckers and clowns and and fools. I try my best to avoid them because I don't really understand that. I don't think that they really understand who they [ __ ] with when they [ __ ] with me. I really don't. You know what I'm saying?
So, but I try my best to avoid it because I I know what I'm capable of doing.
>> So, I but I don't know exactly what I will do.
>> But I will tell you this. If somebody put their hands on me, I don't know if I'll pull out a knife and stick them. If you push me, I don't know if I'll pull out a knife and stick you. I don't know if I'll pull out a gun and and and and pop you a couple of times. I do not know. This is why I mind my own business. I stay to myself. I get out of the way and I let the clowns, you know, pass me by. I try my best to circumvent the clowns because I understand that conflict is costly. But I'm saying that it is reasonable to suspect that a person who is under attack might go overboard with retaliation. That's all I'm saying, >> man. Willie and see the thing is man at this age you know and you know my history I'm from South Central LA I grew up with violence like these people who they they glorif I was I'm hood before the hood was fashionable you understand when I hear when I hear these old school rap songs I'm not listening to entertainment I'm hearing what's going on in my community and when I say I'm from the hood I'm talking about South Central LA in the 1980s and the 1990s you got you got You got gang wars. You got you got cocaine has flooded the neighborhood. It was plenty of conflict around. Plenty of places where you could get shot, smoked. I got homeboys now. I can walk down uh 60th from if I walk from 60th in in Normandy to to Vermont.
It's three bodies that I can show you.
Couple of relatives that got shot right on that street. So, it's plenty of conflict around. And what you have to learn in life and what we've learned is sometimes you got to walk away from that. And there's something called a proportionate response. Just because somebody disrespects you, just because somebody pushes you, that does not give you the right to take that life. Because if you do in this civilized society that we live in, you will then have your life taken away from you in the form of incarceration or you could get the death penalty. Especially somewhere like Texas. You mentioned earlier that it's only a small percentage of black people in Frisco, Texas or Colin counties, Texas. It has a reputation, but yet you want to live there. You see what I'm saying? So, you going to deal with that.
You You want to move out of South Dallas. You want to move out of Fifth Ward, Texas. Well, then you going to go out there with them people at and they going to look at you sideways if you do anything wrong. It is what it is. But the bottom line is, man, like uh the reason that the jury punished him is because the Texas statute that uh would would would allow a person to utilize the defense of self-defense uh also argues that the use of force has to be reasonable. It has to be proportionate. You can't have somebody using ordinary force on you, pushing you, something like that. and we not even talking about a punch and then you turn turn around and use a deadly weapon and take that life. That's where the jury's at. And so whatever people say, man, the lesson here is if you can, it's best to walk away unless your life is in in serious danger. And here's some other things, you know, and I he was up under there and I told you earlier when you look at the the Frisco school policy, he wasn't even supposed to have a knife in the first place. That was illegal. The jury never heard from him. He never testified.
>> No, hold on. Hold on. Not again. Yes, sir.
>> Against school policy.
>> Okay. Okay. I get what you're saying.
It's It wasn't an illegal knife in that it was between 3 and 12 in 2 in long. I get that it wasn't an illegal knife, but having it there at that time in his possession as a 17year-old student was illegal. So, the jury didn't get a chance to hear from him. He didn't testify. So, they didn't hear why he had the knife. Maybe he had it because he used it for his track equipment. Maybe it was a track Maybe he utilized it as a track knife and you can get track knives all the time. They use them to shave their cleats, etc. I get that. But the jury never got a chance to hear why he had the knife on him. That was probably a question they had. The jury never got a chance to listen to, you know, how he felt at the time because he didn't testify. Now, I will say this. the fact that they struck three black jurists on the grounds that they were quote unquote school teachers or educators and they didn't want them on the uh they didn't want them on the stand. That may be grounds to have for appeal. That does not necessarily mean that this young man is not going to go in handcuffs uh to the back room and get processed. That doesn't mean that. But what it does mean that at some point in the near future he may get a uh a a new trial and they will you know because it it violates the Batson case. That's what I'm thinking.
Uh but anyway, brother, you know, you go ahead. Go ahead, brother. I know you got more. Well, no. I'm I'm just I'm just I'm just I'm just thinking here like what like what what what could have the defense done differently to get a different outcome? Like what is is there anything that they could have done differently?
I mean, Willie, you got 20 witnesses.
Your client has admitted that he did it.
It wasn't when when when the when the officer said, "This is the alleged perpetrator." He said, "No, I'm not alleged. I did it in broad daylight."
I is is is is nationally known.
>> You think he should You think they should have took a plea? That's what you're saying?
>> I don't think they even offered a plea, >> huh?
>> Yeah. I don't I don't think they offered a plea, man. I I think this is just one of those cases that you know you you got to there ain't no getting off. There's no not guilty in this there. And see, here's the thing, man. The crowd doesn't reap the benefit of the conversation that we had uh for about an hour before the guilty. You guys don't know. Willie D and I got perfect timing. You see what I'm saying?
And I gave him all the reasons why. And lo and behold, right at that one hour mark, boom, you know, it's a murder charge. And I said it's going to be nearly impossible. I will be shocked if the jury doesn't come back with murder because that's what it is. And when you read the statute, when you read what the jury charges are going to look like, that's what it is. It is what it is. You won't have people don't have to like what I'm saying. But the the question is, what lesson are you gonna learn from this? See, my lesson is this. Okay? And I talked me and Willie, we went back and forth about five minutes on this situation.
I'm having a private conversation with my son and I got three of them and I'm telling them, "What the hell were you thinking? Somebody push you and you you haul off and stab them to death.
Bro, have you lost your damn mind? You don't do that. You don't stab somebody to death cuz they push you. That's crazy as hell." Now, what I'm saying to my son in public, I'm 100% in support of my son, and I have three of them. I'm 100% in support of my son in public. Hey, uh, you know, innocent till proven guilty.
Um, he was defending himself. He was minding his business. He's a good kid.
All that dot dot dot dot dot. But behind closed doors, your dumb ass has lost your goddamn mind. You done stabbed somebody cuz they cuz they pushed you, fool. You play football. You don't You ain't been pushed before. You mad because somebody push you like a Have you lost your damn mind?
>> Go. Yeah, bro. But this what I'm saying, bro. Like real talk.
Let's have a real father. You going to ruin your goddamn life cuz you ego tripping cuz some little hottail girl is sitting there and you don't want to get punked in front of your friends and now your ass going to jail for 20 years. Was that a really intelligent decision, son?
this the conversation of now I got to spend $150,000 $200,000 on a criminal defense attorney. Your ass still probably gonna go to jail anyway. All right. We got to go up to Huntsville to visit you. You see what I'm saying? All because you could cuz you you tripping.
Why'd you have a damn knife with you in the first damn place? Why do you need a knife in the first place to go to a track meet on a Saturday morning at 10:30 a.m.? What what deathdeying feat are you going to have to overcome that you need a knife with you at the schoolyard? Cuz at the end of the day, Willy D, this is a schoolyard beef that could have been settled with hands. I didn't had 10 20 of them my damn self, right? This is not a situation where you where your life is. You not in Afghanistan. You not locked down in the penitentiary where you need a shank or a blade. This is some schoolyard [ __ ] And I don't understand why we can't register the fact that we need to look man. Look, bro. I got too much trauma and I've watched too many people bleed out in front of me growing up in South Central LA. You see what I mean? To take this as anything less than what it was. You got a little boy who over goddamn reacted.
All right. And I get it. I understand it's a black. It's a white thing. But we know how this world is that we live in.
We know where we at. I mean, we know where we at. You You living up with all these white folk. They don't like your black behind anyway. And look, I'm not even talking as a lawyer right now. I'm just talking as one black man to another. At some point, we need to explain to our sons, man, we this is where we live. We are behind enemy lines. They always see they already see you as a chimp, as a ape, as violent.
And now you out here cutting up and agon fool. You going to go to prison, man.
You going to go to prison. You going to be forgotten about. We gonna go on to the next conversation. It's going to be something else crazy is gonna happen in a couple weeks and we will have forgotten Carmelo Anthony.
>> Let me jump in here right quick. Um um let's say you first of all you know I I would I would have to say that you know what what are you saying in in a legal aspect?
>> Yeah.
>> From from a from a from a legal standpoint you're spot on.
But what if this wasn't the first time that this guy put hands on Carmelo?
>> I mean, then they got a history. That's a different scenario, but that's not what that's not what the jury that's not the evidence that the jury heard. It's my understanding that the according to the jury in the 20 witnesses that the the prosecution put on and the four witnesses that uh the defendants heard these boys didn't even know each other.
So, you said something about you you said something about uh and this is important and I want everybody uh everybody specifically black people to hear what I'm about to say because um Dennis mentioned something about uh knowing that where you are. You know how these people feel about you. You know, you know what community you live in. You know that they run this whole situation or whatever they running.
They're governing all of this stuff and how they stick together. They got a good old boys network. They look out for each other. This is But even beyond that, now in a small town, you really got to be on point. But beyond that, just in America, if you are black in America, point blank, period.
If you do something, if you put some If you put some heat on somebody, if you hurt somebody, harm somebody, no matter who it is, but especially if they're white in the United States of America, you got to know they got a different set of laws for you. It's going to be a different reaction for you. That's something that we have to understand.
And it's not fair. It's not it's not fair. Life ain't fair. That's just the that's how until things get better, until something changes, that is the world that we live in. And so we have to move in a different manner. So when we do something, if we take a life, we got to make sure we're all the way to the right because even if you're found guilty, you can ex be exonerated if you're all the way to the right. But if they got you to the left, your ass is grass.
>> Yeah. I mean, and the thing is, bro, like we I mean, it's obvious if the roles were reversed and and you got a 6 foot one, 200 plus black child who jacks a little white child up who was sitting on the bench minding his business, trying to cover from the rain, and then the little white boy jump up and stab him in the chest. Then we got a whole different scenario. People are going to be asking the question, well, where was he supposed to go? you know, he was just sitting there minding his business. You know, the other kid was a bigger kid.
Oh, it's not about race, right? He was just defending himself. We know how this would go. You know where you are. You understand? And see, the thing is, man, we can't parse this out. Yes, race plays a part in it. We understand that.
Location plays a part in it. The fact that it was a all-white jury plays a part in it. But at the end of the day, you had somebody that jumped up and stabbed somebody and killed them because they pushed them. And so the facts are bad. Sometimes you just got an ugly baby. In the law practice, you know, we always say you just got to embrace the ugly baby. And that's what the jury did.
The jury I mean, that's what the the the uh damn uh uh uh uh defense lawyers did.
They embraced They knew damn well that they were going to get a murder charge.
They knew it before they tried the case.
They know what these these defense lawyers already know where they are.
They know what's going to happen up there. They were just trying to mitigate the lawsuit. Well, what we're going to try to do is we we we we put in our bats in challenge and, you know, we'll take an appeal to get a new trial. Maybe we'll kick this down the road for a couple years and then hopefully some of this stuff will simmer down. Maybe we'll get a more lenient jury, more lenient judge. But we're not going to put him on the stand. We can't put him on the stand cuz we put him on the stand that's on the record. And you know this 17-year-old, 18, 19 year old kid, we know he's going to mess it up for the future. They playing the long game. They know damn well that boy is going to get convicted of murder. How do you think I was able to tell you a couple hours ago this is going to be a murder charge. You see what I mean? Because it reads like a math problem. 1 plus 1 equals 2. 2 plus two equals four. Okay. Guilty of murder.
It's not that hard to figure out. The only people surprised about this are the people who've been listening to a lot of this this this hype. But if you actually read the law, if you actually read what the law says and what the law requires, what is murder, what is stand your ground in the state of Texas, what is um uh uh uh uh homicide, what's capital murder, and what would be considered manslaughter. It reads right there. And the thing is, man, it's going to keep happening.
Okay, let me let me say it like this.
It's going to keep happening. You got a lot of people who are out of control, brother. You see what I mean? You you can't stab I'mma keep going back to the fact that you can't stab somebody cuz they push you. Just like you can't shoot somebody uh uh uh uh cuz they cuz they bump into you. You see what I mean? If you in a fist fight, put your hands up and fight.
>> You understand what I'm saying? You you can't do that in a in a civilized society. What happens if every time somebody push you, somebody got to die?
Is that where we going in society?
>> Okay, I gotta jump in right here, Dennis, because this Go ahead, brother.
>> This is the second time that you said this. You called this a civilized society. America is not a civilized society. We are living amongst the uncivilized.
>> We got some of them, too, man. Uh but butized muts running around here. We got some univilized muts in the country.
>> Yeah. Yeah, man. But we still can't just be shooting, killing, and stabbing folk just cuz they pushes. You got to at least let them do something. [laughter] You know what I'm saying? It'd be Look, man, if if if if those boys had surrounded him and they was packing him out, they was they was molly wopping.
They was jumping on him and stomping him out, I would understand if he pulled out a blade and took and used it. I would get that. But this is not that situation. We in broad daylight. We surrounded by people. This is not a This is not a a alley in in in in Brooklyn at 2:30 in the morning. This is not Compton, California, South Central LA in the 90s and and you getting or or or you over in Watts and you got caught up in the Nickerson Garden [laughter] or the PJs cuz you over there trying to see a girl you you ain't supposed to be overseeing. We not talking about those situation. We talking about broad daylight, suburban Texas, two kids at a track meet and and and one of them pushed the other one. And keep in mind, Carmelo was talking [ __ ] See, that's another thing. He wasn't just sitting there quiet. You know, he said, he said, "Y'all football team is ass."
>> I get it. We supposed to be able to say we want to say. I get that.
>> Started talking [ __ ] to him first.
>> They, bro, whatever they was, they was talking [ __ ] together. That's what I'm trying to say. And it escalated. You see what I mean? That's what I'm trying to say, man. It it it escalated, you know?
And and and at the end of the day, I get that I I have had football rivals. I've had Muay Thai rivals, jiu-jitsu rivals.
I get that you going to talk. But it should never escalate to the point where somebody is is dead.
That's what we That's not I can't see that, man. That's not justified, brother. And um you know, like I said, man, as a father, I don't ever want to when I send my son to attract me, I don't expect him to come home in the body bag.
If I send my son to attract me, I don't expect to get a phone call from the jail house two hours later saying he called a murder charge. We have to we have to recognize that that is extreme.
That is not supposed to happen. That is extreme. And so then we as adults have to look at the situation and ask ourselves, well, what happened? What went wrong? And as society, they have to society has to look at that and say, well, we have to punish this type of behavior. And if you're black, you need to be absolutely certain that you are going to be on the forefront of the ones getting punished. You you are not going to get the benefit of the doubt. At least that has not been my historical assessment of how this country has treated black people.
Period. I'm just going to say that. So, you have to operate accordingly. When I was a young boy, I had a conversation.
Well, well, when I was young, I got to talk. I had to talk with my son. Son, you got to have insurance. You got to make sure all your tags are straight.
You can't be around here speeding and running around and and whatnot and cutting up cuz the police will pull you over. And then once you get pulled over, they going to find a reason to say you acting suspicious. Next thing, if if you say something wrong, you going to get them upside in the head. You gonna be face down with a knee in your back if you're lucky. And if and if you get too crazy, they gonna put some in you and I'mma be at the morg saying viewing your body. It's just is what it is, man. See, I'm real practical when it comes to these things, man. I'm real practical when it comes to these things, bro. You got to you got to behave accordingly.
Okay? And and and and I know again, I'm not just talking to you as a lawyer. I'm talking to you as a father. I empathize with Carmelo Anthony. His mama and his daddy are not gonna be able to see their grandchildren because that boy is in prison. This boy is so he probably ain't never even been with a woman at 17 years old. He going to be in there with them savages and them soldiers. You understand? I bet they going to push him off a bench. I bet he ain't going to jump up and stab one of them. But on the flip side, I can empathize with this other little uh this other boy, Austin Metaf. His brother had to watch him bleed out in front of him.
>> [ __ ] Real talk, bro. Hold on, man. I done watched people bleed out.
>> Bro, bro, death is death, man. I done watch people die.
>> You understand? It ain't It ain't something that it don't matter what color it is. Cuz I know it's dudes in the military. They got homeboys, battle buddies. It it it's it's what I'm trying to say is, man, death is death. Nobody I empathize with everything. But the bottom line is family, the bottom line is this situation could have been avoided by many different ways. Somebody could have walked away. Hell, if you ain't want to walk away, take off on it.
Hit him with a couple of uppercuts.
Teach him a lesson. The problem with the bullies is nobody ever checks the bullies like they need to be checked cuz we got a soft society that tells everybody, "Oh, you supposed to go tell the teacher take off on him." I've been in that circle before, man. [ __ ] I'm Bro, I've been in a circle. It don't matter. Whoever run up first up, first down. You run up on me, I'mma try to take your chin off. Now, of course, I'm much older and more mature, okay? I'm not a 17, 18 year, 19 year old boy, a young man anymore, but it is what it is.
Sometimes you get tested and and and and failing the test is you pulling out a blade, stabbing somebody, and now you going to prison for 20 years as opposed to saying, you know what, I lost the fight, but I got my respect. That's all I'm saying, man. That that's brother that's all I'm saying. It this could have been handled in a different way.
That's that's my that's what I'm saying.
>> But I agree that it could be it could have been handled in a different way.
But one thing that I do not I I would personally don't agree with is having empathy for the brother. The brother started I let me let me finish. The brother I the brother from from what I understand is the main reason why Austin is dead. He and that's why the brother didn't want to take the stand. That's why they didn't put him on the stand because he changed his story up a couple of times. He even lied. So he ain't innocent. I don't have any empathy for him because one thing that he could have done, he could have talked Austin off the ledge. He could have just said, "Hey man, it ain't worth it. Break that down.
Leave that alone." But no, he sat back and he instigated. So he was part he was he part of the reason why we're here right now. He's part of the reason. I have zero empathy for him. His mother different story. His father different story. His cousins, aunts, aunties, whatever, as long as they ain't racist, different story.
>> Different story. But if anybody who had any part in that happening, including the friends who sat back and watched, >> let me tell you something. Since we since we're appealing to the youth, >> young, >> if you see your friend doing something stupid, you don't take your damn phone out and start recording. [snorts] You shut it down. Hey, man. What you doing, man? Get out of here, man. Let's Let's We don't do that. You don't You don't walk let your friend your friend walk into the fire. You don't let your friend get it put himself in a situation where he going to go out here and ruin his life. You see your friend loading up the gun and you see all this and you just sitting back like, "Man, why don't you use instead of using that one, you know, why don't you use the AK, man? That's going you gonna get more more shots off with [laughter] that." You know, you know, you if it's your friend, you care about your friend. You care about your friend's family. You don't go to your friend's mama house, daddy house, eat their food, enjoy their entertainment, watching their television, sucking up the air, and then you go out into the streets and you see that their son doing some stupid [ __ ] that you know that can get them messed off, get their life taken away from them, get their freedom taken away from them, and you just sit back and watch the [ __ ] happen, and you call yourself a friend. You ain't no damn friend. That ain't what a friend does. A friend protects his friends. And what I'm saying is that Austin friends did not protect him.
>> They did not protect him and they don't deserve nothing. They don't deserve no they don't deserve no empathy whatsoever.
>> And you know, bro, I agree with that, man. You know, and it's just like again, I hadn't made any comments about this thing because I just don't like the whole situation. I don't like the two the two boys lives is ruined. One is dead and the other one's going to go to jail or prison. So, you know, and this happened. I mean, this is close to home.
We we we ain't but what a couple hours away. You see what I'm saying? This is in this is in our neck of the woods. And I hate that this whole situation happened. And um you know, but the truth is, man, we as society have failed. And I'm going to say it like this, man. We failed because we've trained white people to believe that black people don't have humanity. Generally speaking, we've trained uh we've trained society to believe that black people don't have a right to defend themselves. And whether we're talking about black folk being punished when they took up arms to defend themselves during the civil rights movement, uh whether we're talking about, you know, brothers using fire, there was a brother who defended him. Some people broke in his house and as a homeowner and he and he took him out and he went to prison. I don't know if that was in Florida. I know it's back east somewhere.
>> Yeah.
And so now >> I believe four of them or something like that.
>> He put him Hey, he he he he sent him home to that maker. But what I'm saying is, man, we as society have failed ourselves and this whole racial divide.
You see what I mean? I'm trying to get to the point in this particular case, and it's it's hard for everybody. Let me try to look at this in a very sterile way as an attorney. Let me try to look at this as a scientist, as as as a scholar. But unfortunately, we keep getting back to race. You see what I mean? Because we can't we we can't escape that. It's unfortunate at the end of the day. Uh you know, Carmelo Anthony is a young 17-year-old boy and now his life >> 19 now.
>> Well, 19 his life is ruined because he made a bad decision. You see what I mean? and he took another young man's life. And we're in a situation now where we as society have to recognize that we failed that young man. We did. And now the law that we have set up to punish people for doing things is punishing him. So, you know, man, it's it's unfortunate situation, man. And um it it really hurts my heart, you know, especially with a with a time period that we living in right now where you already have all this racial animosity.
And you know, here's the thing, man, and I know you know this. The same people that cheer you are the same people gonna be wishing for your death. These same people, oh yeah, uh, you know, we support Yeah. Yeah. Carmelo Anthony until somebody like him do something to them. And then you want to know why he not in jail. Why y'all don't get the neighborhood cleaned up? And I'm not saying Carmelo is a bad kid. From what I understand, he doesn't even have a record. but but constantly just falling on the side of, oh, he's black or he's Asian or whatever, so because he looks like me or he's my race or she's my race, I'm just gonna side with her.
Let's try to focus on on something uh more tangible. You see what I mean? And in this particular situation, the only thing that I know that is is not true is that if somebody uh uses a disproportionate response uh to your force, then you know a society where people get killed for pushing people or somebody accidentally step on your foot and you and you go to the extremes with it, it's not acceptable, man. We can't live like that, man. That's not somewhere where I feel safe. Everybody's going to be on edge. We're gonna have a prison yard. You see what I mean? That's where I'm at, brother.
>> Yeah. Do do you think that the verdict will with withstand an appeal review?
>> Well, in the state of Texas, man, we have uh the Texas criminal appealer court and I absolutely and because it's a court of intermediate uh intermediate court, all appeals are mandatory. So, you have to they as long as you have the money and whatnot, they they have to review it. Now, what I think is, and I I I mentioned this earlier, the fact that they struck three jurors and the defendant, three black jurors and the defendant defense council uh did uh preserve that objection.
I definitely think it might be is good grounds for a new trial. So, you might have a new trial. I don't know. Um but but uh you know, that was one error that that that the prosecution made, but I understand why they did it. They just wanted a conviction. This is a these are politicians. When you elect a a a prosecutor, he's a politician. What he wants to do is get a feather in his head. Say, "See, I convicted him. I convicted him. We we did we got a murder conviction." So his people, he can go back to his people who contribute to his campaign and say, "See, I did what I'm supposed to do." It doesn't matter if it's stick. That's the next prosecutor's problem. By the time four or five years go by, you won't even remember this.
It's gonna be a whole another group in there somewhere. This guy might move on to be an attorney general or something like that, but he got a feather in his hat. And see, that's the thing about prosecutors, man. This thing about the criminal justice system, you got to feed that animal. Once you create that animal, you got to put bodies in it. And the bodies that they like to put in it are undesirable. Whether we talking about black bodies, whether talking about illegal immigrant bodies, we want to put bodies in that system because we make money off that system. Period. It plays a lot of judges. It pays a lot of salaries. It pays for a lot of Mercedes Benz, Rolls-Royces, 6,000 square foot houses, etc., etc. You understand what I'm saying, brother? So, uh, they don't care. They just want the conviction. So, if they get a conviction that eventually gets overturned, that doesn't take away the fact that they got a convent a conviction. And this is what I'm looking at. And so the the way I see things from being an attorney and and having done this going on 30 years, second generation actually, man, come to find out, man, my great great grandfather was an attorney. That's something went to Russ College in Mississippi, end up being the county attorney uh for uh Nicodemus, Kansas, helped found one of those free black towns in Kansas. So it's in the blood, but uh this is the way the system works. You know, it it's the way the system works. And uh my thing is man, just do your best to stay out of that system. You don't want the hands of justice to get hold of you because it's hard to get them up off you once they put that stink on you. And so yeah, they they wanted they got a feather in their head. They put one in, you know, a high-profile case. So that's what I'm looking at.
>> How much impact do you think that social media had on this outcome of this case?
>> Hey man, the jury watch the jury's on Facebook, the jury's on Tik Tok, the jury's on YouTube. I'm sure it had an effect. If nothing else, it affected the ethos. If it didn't affect the jury, look at the 21 kids. Look at the fact that Austin, I mean, Carmelo's so-called friend, remember his friend? I don't know that guy. You, you know, he he denied him like Peter did Jesus. I don't know him. I don't know who that is. And then the defense say, "Is that the picture of you? Didn't y'all hang out three times in one week? and you telling me we have photographs of you hanging out with Carmel uh Carmelo Anthony and you turn around telling me that that's not your friend. What are you talking about? And so he said, "Oh, okay. Yeah, I might have known him a little bit."
Clearly, you knew him a little bit more.
And so what that situation tells me is that, yeah, man, you can put a parade of witnesses up there, but if you get in a certain environment and people realize, look, man, I got to live here. I I got to live here in Collins County. So, if I'm one of the people who come up here and say something like, "Well, you know, Carmelo was just sitting there minding his business and old buddy, we, you know, he really ran up on him and jacked him up." You might change your testimony. I'm not saying anybody lied.
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you might augment, you might add on, you might detract some things that you would otherwise say if you were being telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So, the fact that you have 20 witnesses up there, that does not necessarily mean that uh the jury heard all the facts as accurate as each one of the witnesses uh could have possibly remembered. That's all I'm saying. Um and again, Carmelo didn't testify for himself. Then that doesn't mean he's guilty. Okay? But he How is the jury supposed to know what his mindset was if he didn't get up there? And and that's going to be, in my opinion, the crux of the self-defense argument. It's a give and take. You get up there, you say, "Hey, yeah, look, I stabbed him or I shot him or I did whatever." But I did it because I felt this way. There was a guy over here, a guy over there, a guy over there. I already knew these guys' reputation.
They they I had I had understood that they were they knew jiu-jitsu. They were violent. I understood that. But he didn't get up on the stands and say that. You see? So, how is the jury the jury is just supposed to infer that from the physical evidence? They supposed to infer the fact that oh well this guy is um you know 5 foot7 145 40 pounds or 160 pounds and this other guy is uh you know 6'1 210 lbs. We can infer the fact that he he was afraid. They have to infer that but they never actually heard that testimony from from from Carmelo. And I get why his lawyer wouldn't want to put a teenage uh boy under there under crossexamination.
I get that. He say something and that's gonna make the jury like him even less than they like him now because at the end of the day, you know, we're looking at a murder car. We looking at murder.
But go ahead, brother.
>> I would say it's going to make the jury hate him even more than they hate him now. [laughter] The jury was against Carmelo Anthony from Jump Street before they were even picked. I do believe that the jury had their minds made up. Let Dennis, let's say Carmelo's parents reached out to you right now and said, "Uh, Dennis, uh, we'd like you to uh, represent us in appealing Carmelo's murder conviction."
What's the first thing that you do?
>> Well, I'm going to tell them I don't practice criminal law and that they need to find an attorney who practices criminal law.
>> If you did, if you did, because you know, you do know criminal law. So if you did, if you were to represent them, what's one of the first things hypothetically speaking, what's one of the first things that you do?
>> Well, let me say it like this. I have a dark practice. And what that means is it's a practice that I don't advertise.
Uh, and there are a lot of people around the country who know about that. Like I I reach out to a lot of stars and a lot of very powerful people around the country. And one of the things I do with my dark practice that I don't advertise is I put together teams of lawyers and other professionals and experts to help people consult behind the scene how they should handle certain crisis. And so in this situation, I would never put my name and associate myself with some sort of criminal appeal, but I I would put a fantastic team together for them to help them. Now again, you know, my dark practice has a lot to do with you got to have some money. Okay, this ain't this these are people who want to be paid.
You see what I mean? Now, that does not necessarily mean that his appeal uh will uh lead to some sort of uh overturning a conviction like what happened in the Bill Cosby case, but I would do my very best to get him the best appellet team together. And uh you know, this is possibly something depending on what the uh Texas Criminal Court of Appeals would do, might end up in the Supreme Court, but it would be a lot of money. It's going to cost a lot of money. I don't know the family. I don't know them. But, uh, you know, it would have to be some serious numbers, you know, in order if they want if they want to go to the full extent. Um, I would try to do this, I would say, hey, look, and I don't I've been on here with you. I don't know if they took him behind those walls after the verdict or they gave him a little time to get his affairs together. I don't know. You see what I mean? But I would try to delay incarceration until uh sentencing. You know, in other words, it could be three, six months before they sentence. Or the jury could have sentenced him right there. They could do that. That's an option. But uh I would do my very best. That would be the But at this situation, man, it's just trying like not It's like trying not to get wet in a hurricane. It's only so much you could do. You out there with an umbrella, you trying not to get wet in a hurricane, you gonna get wet, you know?
Uh you're gonna get wet. This is a bad situation. It's unfortunate. And the most we can do, man, is go hug your children. That's what I'm telling you.
Go hug your children, man. Go hug your children. Have a conversation with them.
Black, white. Y'all need to tell these little white boys, keep their goddamn hands to their self. They don't run the world. You need to tell little black boys, "Look, man. You know where we at.
You know, these people looking at you sideways anytime you walk outside, whether you in the in in the damn convenience store and and you got a little couple of bottles of water or whatever the hell you got. You know what I'm saying? They still looking at you like you stole something. They looked at you like you stole something and man, you walked in. Hell, walking while black is a crime. Apparently, you get shot for that. You understand?
>> Just just being black and just existing >> Yeah.
>> as a black person is a crime in some people's eyes.
>> Yeah, man.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So now, how difficult do you think it'll be for the defense to get to overturn this verdict?
>> I mean, you could get a new trial. You know, I don't think they're going to be able to overturn a verdict. It ain't going to be overturned a ver rarely that an appellet court is going to overturn a jury verdict. They might grant him a new trial because uh the Batson issue where they struck those three. And I don't know every detail of what, you know, what other uh uh errors was made error errors were made by the uh trial judge, but I do know that's the most obvious and that's the that's the one that's most quoted. You can't just strike three black jurors on the opaces that oh, they're educated.
That that's that's that's suspicious.
You understand what I'm saying? That's that's that's that's too obvious. They have cases about that even if they are pimpy strike permpter strikes. And so I think that's the most obvious grounds for appeal and that might get them a new trial but at the end of the day let's say best case let's say this let's say in order to avoid a new trial let's say they couple years go down the road in order to avoid a new trial they say look well we'll give you another three years time sir just plead guilty I mean you already been found guilty once you know you want to try this again we give you 10 years you quietly go away we put you on probation for another 15 years etc etc you still be young enough you in your 20s, you know. I mean, you know, the defense is the only people that seem confused about what's going on is the public. The prosecutors and the defensive attorneys, the the defense already knew what was going to happen.
I'm sure, I am absolutely certain that defense council had a honest conversation with Carmelo Anony's parents and Carmelo Anthony prior to the commencement of this trial and they let them know what they're looking at. I'm absolutely certain of it. It's really no surprise. Again, I sat up here with you uh a couple hours ago and I broke down every reason why this was not going to be manslaughter, why it wasn't capital murder, and why it it it it landed squarely on a murder conviction. And so, this is where we are. So, I'm sure his attorneys told him the same thing.
>> Yeah, you did. You did do that. You did tell me how this was going to go down.
You told me exactly how it was going to go down. What I want to know is was there a point during the trial where you saw a turn where things went into the uh direction of the prosecution where the prosecution had an advantage.
>> Man, first of all, this trial was supposed to go on much longer than four days. This is a four-day trial for a murder trial.
>> Yes. And I was thinking thinking about the Diddy thing. I'm like, diddy case lasted like six, seven weeks and it was a freak off. Uh it was it was a it was a it was a freak uh what do you call it? Uh it was a freak case, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And we talking about kid on trial for murder in in his last four days, >> bro. The jury the jury retired at 2:03 yesterday afternoon. I'm thinking to myself, well, you know, it's Monday.
They going to deliberate at least till Friday at 12:00 just so they can get those extra days off from work. Well, the jury came back today and apparently they they they came, they stayed for lunch and by the time two o'clock this afternoon showed up, guess what they did? They had a murder conviction. Man, they And look, I don't want to judge the jury. I don't know, but to me, it seems to me like they they pretty much had their mind made up somewhere between uh uh the the the the after Vor Dire was when they picked the jury and panled the jury and uh uh at some point when the prosecution put on his case and chief, I think that the defense council probably knew it, which is why they only put on four witnesses. I didn't see any experts, no forensics. Uh, you know, you say there's some videotape. I didn't hear anything about anybody subpoenaing any uh uh you know uh cloud information, any of that. I didn't I didn't see any of that. You know, at least I didn't hear. Maybe they did, but the jury to me it seemed like the jury had already made their mind up before the case the defendants rest their case. and chief.
>> I absolutely believe that the jury had their minds made up already.
>> And so what if it comes out that the actual judge, the the the DA in the case was really friends with Austin Medv's dad, Jeff, and that Jeff was in uh was in a friendship with the actual judge in the case. You got the DA, the judge, and the father of the deceased, the victim, all friends. Isn't that a conflict of interest? Isn't that And isn't And isn't that grounds for an appeal?
I mean, you can appeal for any reason, but um Willie D, brother, you have a young man that admitted he stabbed and killed another man. You can't get rid of that evidence. I don't care how many conflicts you have.
>> There's a dead body out here. We got a dead body.
>> Who who did who killed this person?
That's the only question. And if you have somebody who admits that they question is why did he kill him?
>> Well, I mean, Carmelo Anthony didn't testify as to why he killed him. He didn't come up on the stand and testify as to why he felt that his life was in in in serious danger that he needed to pull out a knife and stab this other young man in the chest or wherever he stabbed him. We don't know. We don't know why what his motivation was because he didn't testify. We assume that it was self-defense. We assume that he felt that his life was in danger and it and it was such a threat that it rose to the level that he needed to use uh uh uh deadly force. That's the only thing we can assume. We don't know. I don't know this young man's motivation, but what I do know is that there's a dead body. And in the state of Texas, if there's a dead body, more than likely, somebody's going to prison. I think we all can all of us Texans can agree to that. Somebody's going to go to prison. If it's a dead body involved, I that's that's all what other evidence you need. Look, man, it's a small town. I done been to towns, man.
Let me tell you something, man. I remember one time I took my ass to Shreport, Louisiana. This is where I first got my law license. Had to be about 2002, 2003. They had Confederate flags outside the goddamn courthouse.
You know what I'm saying? I'm I'm in the courthouse. It's me and the janitor. We the only two black people in the street port city. Shout out to Monk House Road.
Is a clearly black town. Okay. But I'm the only black me and the janitor. The only one in there, man. My my client and my client. I had got him a a judgment for $27,000. And he was like, "Well, can we go back in and ask the judge if I can get more money? Why didn't you have I say, "Look, man. This is what we agreed to do before we even got in the courthouse. You want me to go back in here?" Mind you, it's getting dark. We need to get our ass back down to Houston, right? I'm say, "Let me tell you something." I said, "Do you see that flag up there? You see that flag with that Confederate symbol up there? Let's get in this goddamn car and go on back to Houston. That's what we're going to do." And so he said, "Yeah, you right."
Bottom line is man all in these small town everybody know everybody.
Everybody's married to somebody.
Everybody has a friend or relatives that works in the clerk's office. Everybody is related to somebody that used to be the DA or used to be a a a clerk or a cop or whatever. Everybody knows everybody in these small towns. You can't get around that. You're entitled to a trial by a a jury of your peers.
You're not entitled to a trial by a jury of people who share the same race as you. That that's what that that's not just because >> you explain that and it's like what what exact for for Camello Anthony what constitutes a jury of his peers?
>> A jury of of [laughter] the last ones left after the ones you don't like are struck. You don't get the best jurors. You get the ones left.
That's what you get when you go when you go to these when you go to these jury uh what do they when you go to to when you get that jury summons uh from the local clerk's office. They eliminate the ones the the other side is going to eliminate the ones that's good for your side and you hopefully will eliminate the ones that's good for the other side and you get what's left. That's it. That's the jury you get. You don't get the best jury. You get the ones that the ones that couldn't figure out a reason to get out of jury duty. Those are the people you get. My baby sick. You good? You stay here.
>> Yeah. Go ahead.
>> Just to be clear, the a jury of your peers are not people who you have uh that that you relate to. People that you have things in common with, people that might be of your same age or ethnicity or any of that. That's not a jury.
That's not what they mean when they say jury of your peers.
>> Absolutely not. That's that is somebody have it being in the same work class as you or field as you. None of that.
>> Nope. None of that. You get what's left.
>> Who have So it's just people who are who are legal voters who has who's left in the jury pool. Whoever is left in the jury pool, that's it.
whatever criteria that local clerks use, whether it's a a registered voter, taxpayer, somebody who paid >> uh whatever criteria they may have, that's those that's your jury pool. And of those people, what typically happen, they'll line you up in a room depending on the different uh it depends on the different jurisdictions. Some will leave you in the audience and they have a row of 10, 15, 20 people and you the two lawyers or whatever everything they looking at the jury they'll say jury 1 through 50. Okay. Well, we don't like jurors two, 7, 15, and 20. Or really, they'll start with the ones in the front because those are the ones most likely going to be in the jury. They'll eliminate. They got to get up and go.
And so now you're in this situation where two and seven are gone, but there's somebody who was in in in the second seat. That might be juror five, that might be juror eight, whoever it is, because the rest of them are gone.
And once you out of exceptions, once all the judge rules on all your uh uh uh uh your calls and and you use your perimeter, this is what you got left.
That's it. And that's who that's who is going to determine your whether or not you win the criminal case or whether you get a not guilty or guilty on the criminal case. And then the civil matter, that's the one that's going to turn determine whether or not you get the relief you sought, whether you get the land, whether you get the monetary judgment. So these people are are these are your 12 judges. And then some they have a what's called a pate jury, which is six. That's it. That's what you get.
So you're you thinking that you going to get 12 Willy D's to judge Willie Doo?
Absolutely not. You going to get some Martha's. You going to get some Karens.
You going to get you going to get some uh Jesus's. You going to get a couple Maras and some Jose's and some Linglands. That's who you going to get to judge you as long as they fit that criteria. You get what's left. And Carmelo Anthony was judged. Uh was it an all-white jury? He got judged by a bunch of John's and Sarah.
>> It was non black. It was all non black.
Let's put it like that. Not >> that's what he got judged by. Yeah, man.
on the jury in a racially charged case.
A racially charged case. Not one person >> who looks like him who fits his ethnicity group. Not one.
>> Well, bro, brother Willie, we saw what happened in South Carolina with that. I know you don't like to call him Mr. Child, but what was his first name? I forget that man's first name, but but the the child versus state of South Carolina case, they had five black jurors, two what they would describe as non uh uh uh black jurors and five white jurors, and they still found child not guilty. And see, here's the thing. It only the Supreme Court reemphasized this statement because Louisiana was doing some crazy stuff. All you need is one.
All you need is one juror to object and you have a hung jury. You see, >> that's all you needed. And the Supreme Court reemphasized that some years back because they had a lot of cases coming out of New Orleans and they would have people saying they they would try to hold n guilty anyway. Even if even if it was so so you have to have a unanimous jury. And so if you have one, guess what? You got a hung jury. you got to retry. But they didn't they didn't get that in South Carolina. And this jury here was unanimous also. So, you know, it sometimes it doesn't matter, man. You get a bunch of school teachers and engineers. They could be black. If you want to get a couple of school teachers and engineers on your jury panel, I don't care what kind of black they are.
They could be light-skinned black, midnight black, uh uh uh black as hell, light bright, damn near white. get a bunch of engineers and school teachers on the on the jury panel and see if you don't if you don't not get what you want, >> you see. So, yeah, it the color doesn't always matter.
>> Well, man, uh yeah.
>> Yeah, this this this case has been exhausting. uh not so much as for us as it's been for Camello Anthony and and uh his his family and uh Austin Medaf's family, but damn man, this race damn thing in this country, man. God, good lord, man.
>> Yeah.
>> You do you think we'll ever get to a point to where we just uh look at right and wrong versus black and white? I mean, just >> No.
>> Never. Yeah. I mean, >> look, let me tell you something, man.
Brother, race is as is as is as is as is as American as to as apple pie. It's not going anywhere. It's part of the ethos.
This country was founded on race. And I know people don't like to say that. I know we have a lot of people out there who want to believe, oh, we had a black president. There's no such. I knew it was BS when I heard that.
>> We the Confederate flags are still up.
>> Uh people still hold on to their strongly held beliefs. I don't try to change people. If you're racist, be a racist. I If you're a bigger, be a bigot. Do whatever you do. I just want you to leave me alone, >> right?
>> Let me mind my business and you mind your business. And again, this should be considered the mind the business case, okay? Because you you made some valid points.
>> You're not wrong, okay? Because if somebody had minded their business, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now. But the bottom line is race is part of the American ethos. It's not going to go anywhere. And I would argue that if if if if if all the white people disappeared from the planet, there would still be racism. You still have Asian on Asian racism. You still have black on black racism. You still have Indian on Pakistani racism. Folk look the same to me. All right? Because people are always trying to find a reason to one up or big up other people. This is everybody always wants to feel better than the next man. And it just so happened that white people are at the top of the pile right now and they like, "Well, we gonna hold it down for our team." It is what it is. Everybody wants to look out for their own group. I get that. But but but the bottom line is, man, we still have to try to find a way to live together in this society. Everybody that I've met wants to be able to raise their children, enjoy their life, enjoy some of the wealth and success. They don't want these artificial impediments in the way like we're not gonna give you a job because of the color of your skin. We're not gonna let you live here because of the color of your skin. We're not going to let you drink out this goddamn water fountain because of the color of your skin. See, that's the type of foolishness that that needs to be done away with. And that's what our ancestors who came before us fought against. That sort of overt racism is what we fought against. But you still can't change people's hearts. And unfortunately, it's always going to be that anytime somebody can't pay their rent, anytime somebody feels inadequate, anytime somebody feels as though they've been slighted, they're going to look around and instead of blaming themselves, >> they're going to look around and try to find somebody else to blame. It's the Mexican >> or it's the black people. Uh uh the Martians are taking our job. The the the people come down, AI is taking our job.
And so instead of looking within and trying to make yourself the best person you can be, you want to blame somebody else. And and and that's just where we are. And the other thing about it, and look, man, I'm a capitalist, you're a capitalist, we make money, but part of capitalism is competition.
And and and if we can team up on our little squad and and because we white or we black or whatever, and we can we can beat the other little squad, hey, it is what it is, man. We like racism in America. We That's what we need to understand. We love it. It's our It's They always talk about baseball as a national pastime. Racism is the national pastime. You want to know?
>> You want I know [ __ ] Let a white man.
What's that man? Paul. What's that? R.
What's that boy's name? The the little the boxing boy. John Paul. Yan. What's that little white boy name that got knocked out?
>> Yeah. That's the That was the crappiest fight I've ever seen in years. But people watched it because it was black on white. We love racism. And when you just accept the fact that you know what this is just how we are as the Bible said we are all filthy rags. This is how we are. But at the end of the day we still have to manage to exist in this country and we have I know you disagree but we have to try to behave like civilized human beings. We have to do that because >> you mean that I disagree. I don't disagree with behaving like civilized human. [laughter] I think that's the problem is that we don't behave like civilized >> and and and and let you tell it. We uh race isn't the biggest issue. The biggest issue is lack of respect, >> you know, because you can not like somebody but but but respect them enough to not go knock on their door and say, "Hey, motherucker," and d or tell them, "Hey, what you doing around here?" You ain't got to like a person. just don't try to uh don't try to interfere with their existence. You know, that's that appears to that's the biggest problem I think is that because listen man, we all have uh we all come with our we come wired with our own set of implicit biases, right? We all have implicit biases. Whether it it be in regards to race, whether it be in regards to uh a team, a sports team, uh some artist that we like, uh the type of jobs that we want to have a neighborhood or whatever we we have preferences, right? So, that's not the biggest issue. Is it is the lack of respect that we have and that some people just think because they are the way that they are that they are entitled to be disrespectful to other people's to other people's existence.
And so that's that's the way I see it, man. Like I'm not gonna mess with you, but please don't mess with me, man.
Because I don't know what I'll do. I do not know how far I will go.
>> Yeah.
Yeah, brother. You right about that, man. I uh you know, but I've given this conversation a lot of thought and I appreciate you having me here again, brother.
>> Absolutely.
>> It I'm gonna be honest. This this hurts my heart. You know, even >> I don't even want to talk about this.
This is not even I talk about a lot of things, but it goes to the crux of the issues that we have here in the United States. And unfortunately, this is a 400 something year old problem and we still dealing with it. We still dealing with it.
>> So, America ain't as smart as we think we are. Huh? Americans are not as smart as we think we are.
>> No, but they got issues all over the world with with bigotry and racism. And if it wasn't bigotry and racism, it'll be anti anti- relligion or anti- whatever. If if it was if everybody on the planet had brown eyes and the other group had had had light brown eyes, it'd be racism between the dark brown eye people in the light brown. This is the nature of human beings. But we have got to find a way to exist in this world and find some siblance of peace. That's why we try to abide by the law. That's so that our women can be safe, so that our elderly can be safe. Uh and and we have to hold everybody to that standard. And this is why it's important that we have laws in place. And it's unfortunate that America has this relationship or black people in America have this un this this this unhealthy relationship with the legal system because it's often been used and directed at black people unfairly.
Things like pie versus Ferguson. I mean, we literally had to fight and die for a civil rights bill, which is just the right to vote in a country that we fought and bled for. So, yeah, man. You know, it's it's it's it's horrible, brother.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm I'm glad to be here with you, man.
Appreciate it.
>> I'm glad you came out, man, and imparted your wisdom. Thank you for coming on the show once again. Ladies and gentlemen, attorney Dennis Sperland. You >> No more. make tell them to make sure that I mean if you you guys want to come hear me scream at the internet y'all feel free to con come over to Dennis Sperling podcast man real easy to find >> that in there right quick Dennis it's just Dennis Sperling right >> Dennis Sperling podcast man y'all come check me out I just cracked 100 and uh you know man big shout out to my sons and and my wife because I spent a lot of time you know coming up with these very con complic complicated, you know, theories and and and and find historical data, but man, Willie, you know, man, I it's is I I talked to a lot of street dudes before I came here today. I I literally talked to a lot of killers, people who got bodies, and initially the knee-jerk reaction is, "Yeah, man, he shouldn't have put his hands on them."
But then dudes who have really taken lives and did time and said, "Man, you you you see them people's faces at night when you sleep." You see? So we we talking about this situation, but there's a young man, Carmelo Anthony. He he he's he's going to think about this for the rest of his life. He's gonna see that young man's face. He's going to rethink that. And I don't want any other child to have to have to deal with that sort of torment. You know what I mean?
So let's try to save our children. And I, you know, and again, you have a right to defend yourself, but let's understand that there are consequences for every action. and and you know whether you right or wrong you still have to deal with those consequences the the law supporting you or not supporting you is one thing but you have your internal compass and I don't think you know you know I I I I don't think that this is good for that young man or anybody else who had to live through that's my final thoughts >> and that goes on that goes for both sides man uh you know keep your hands to yourself but if somebody put their hands on you make sure that you have a very healthy outlook on conflict resolution because >> if not you can find yourself in a real bad position.
>> That's my time fam. Enjoy yourself.
Enjoy the rest of your morning, afternoon, or evening wherever you are in the world. No more
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