What Happens To Your Body When You Run A Marathon? | EP 169 🎙️

Added: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]It's days, a week, weeks even since you ran a big race. Your brain's feeling foggy. You're a little bit lost. You're bumping into things. You don't know where to go. You end up walking the streets late at night wondering, just thinking.

[00:00:14]>> Is this you after a marathon or or is this you after a few glasses of wine in an in an evening?

[00:00:18]>> Well, same rule applies. Actually, >> do you know what though? I know exactly what you mean. Like postmarathon general blues, it's such a weird feeling because you forget the race. so quickly you're not left you're left not really knowing what's happened and you're just kind of wondering what's next.

[00:00:36]>> Yes. So that's what we're going to talk about today. I actually ran my half marathon yesterday and I am a broken man. So we're going to be talking about the physical and mental effects of racing on your body and your mind.

[00:00:46]That's going to be what we'll talk about today.

[00:00:48]>> And also uh some big news on numbers for next year's London Marathon. And I got an email this week which basically reminded Owen and I of the reason why we do this. Let's get into it.

[00:01:04]>> Oh, that was deep. That was deep. I love that.

[00:01:06]>> I'm so excited for the end of this podcast already.

[00:01:09]>> Well, you should be excited for the the the middle as well cuz there's something coming up that I'm going to ask you and Rick to do, which I know that you're going to enjoy very much. Sarah knows what it is. Rick doesn't know what it is, but you will both enjoy it very much.

[00:01:20]>> That's just not what I need. But how are you? You raced a half marathon yesterday.

[00:01:24]>> I did. I ran How did it go? Milton Kings. Well, you know, cuz you were with me on the bike. You went working a bank holiday.

[00:01:30]>> Working a bank holiday. You know what that means?

[00:01:32]>> How's your back?

[00:01:32]>> Double pain.

[00:01:35]>> What? News to me.

[00:01:37]>> Um, my back's fine, actually. I rode me and Tom went out on our filming bike, which if no one's ever seen before. It's basically a like a cargo bike that um Tom sits on the back facing backwards holding a camera. I sit on the front, pedal him around, and we try and stay together as a couple by the end of the half marathon, which actually we did pretty well at.

[00:01:58]>> And just in case anyone tries to cancel us, we're not, you know, there's various uh stories in the last few years of people >> sort of sneaking bikes to film on the course. We had permission from Milton Kings Marathon >> and they were amazing to let us do it.

[00:02:12]You wore high viz, you stayed away from all of the other people. you were very careful to respect the rest of the runners and you were running so quickly that it made our job a little bit easier because it meant that you had loads of space around you. However, then towards the latter stages, you and you were running with Freddy, legendary former running channel camera >> cameraman who who we roll out full of my challenges.

[00:02:35]>> Yeah, he's so rapid. Although I'll skip ahead a little bit and said that he was so disgusted with how hard the course was. I wasn't and the previous attempt that he did with me for I'm still trying to I'm trying to run this sub 75 minute half marathon.

[00:02:49]>> First attempt was well first attempt I aborted cuz I got injured. It was supposed to be in Malaga. Then >> so we ran it for you as a relay.

[00:02:54]>> As a relay >> disgusting.

[00:02:56]>> Then Newark in August. Terrible month to run a fast half marathon. Very hot and quite a hilly course. And then Milton Kees yesterday and Fred Freddy his parting comment to both of us yesterday was I'm choosing the course next time.

[00:03:08]>> Yeah.

[00:03:09]>> And it was an amazing event to be fair to Freddy. Let's go.

[00:03:13]>> He was like he's already been sending me messages about Berlin and Valencia.

[00:03:16]>> Oh really?

[00:03:17]>> Yeah. It was it was so much fun. Also what I found the best thing about Milton Kees is there are so many different events happening all at once. So, there is a marathon that sets off at the same time as the half marathon, which sets off at the same time as a marathon relay. And I'm I said to Tom on the way home, we've got two friends. Katie, who I ran Rosan with, who does run, James, her partner, who you know runs occasionally. I said to Tom, I was like, we should definitely do the relay with them cuz I think that's such a fun.

[00:03:47]>> So, you have four people, I think. I don't think it's far. four people each doing just over 10k each and you each do your leg and then together you've like run a whole marathon. But I just think that's such a fun I agree that is a good concept.

[00:04:02]>> Really good. We should do >> much more fun than running.

[00:04:03]>> More um when Mo did Milton Kees marathon a few years ago, he he he had paces but they were doing the relay.

[00:04:10]>> What time was great? He was going sub three.

[00:04:12]>> Yeah.

[00:04:13]>> That's a tough course to I mean it's no wonder he's he's now trying to go to sub 230. So having run sub three at Milton Kings. So, it's it was really well put together course, amazing support on the course as well, really well organized, but the the course is definitely challenging because I think if you zoom out from the course profile is relatively flat, >> but there's lots of small hills in it and those hills really beat me up actually. So, it was >> it's quite a fun course if you don't like, you know, big road events where it's just closed road running on an A- road quite boring in comparison. It's lots of what are they called in redways which is basically just little pavements >> cycle paths that mean that you can you can cover the whole of the city and go all over on these redways without ever having to like >> cross a road cuz it goes under underpasses and overpasses.

[00:04:58]>> I don't think I've ever heard of that term redways.

[00:05:00]>> They're called the redways cuz they're they're made of sort of red tarmac or like red. your um so your wife and your kids came along to support you yesterday and then all of the the whole they lined the whole halfway and Tom was talking to your wife about um about the redways. He had never heard that word before literally the whole afternoon the red on this bit of the redway.

[00:05:22]>> Yeah. So amazingly I saw them at about a mile and a half and then about 5 miles and then in the stadium at the end. So it's a stadium finish which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it starts on like proper closed roads, big dual carriageways. That's I would I prefer that the feeling of running on.

[00:05:37]>> It looked sick as well.

[00:05:39]>> Same as the Great North Run >> for about 5 miles. So you basically start basically out and back and then you dip onto the smaller roads and then some of them are roads through the >> cuz Milton Kings is effectively made up of a lot of a lot of villages that kind of got joined together.

[00:05:52]>> Um and then you on and off these redways as well. So um it definitely kept it interesting but it was by no means flat.

[00:05:59]And in the first 5 miles there's actually like some quite steep hills. So I was feeling it early. I was feeling my quads were like were like I was oh my god my legs are battered already.

[00:06:10]>> Um and the pace we were trying to run we set off at more or less 330 per kilometer which is 75minut pace.

[00:06:15]>> That's just disgusting.

[00:06:16]>> Yeah. Which was really challenging.

[00:06:21]>> Yesterday um yes I did. Yeah more or less I think. Or it was very very close.

[00:06:26]>> I bet you were knackered on the bike.

[00:06:27]>> Yeah actually. That is one thing that I would say. It is an electric bike, but man, I had to pedal really fast.

[00:06:34]Especially cuz we were going up and down there. There was one section where we had to go like up and over a canal. And I just pulled to the side cuz I was like, Tom, we're not making it up with you on the back. Even with level three electricity, I can't beat Andy up.

[00:06:47]>> Yeah. There was one point when I genuinely turned to Freddy. I don't think this is don't think we recorded it, but I just turned to him. I was like, "Are we going to have seen Sarah and Tom?" Like because there was a point because you were with us for quite a big bit in the beginning and then we then turned off and I was like we hadn't seen you for ages. I was like where are they?

[00:07:02]And then you popped up in this little underpass and >> Yeah.

[00:07:04]>> then you were kind of leaprogging us, right?

[00:07:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. So basically we were supposed to see you in the middle of all of that. Um but Tom took his sweet time coming down from the underpass and then then >> couldn't catch us up again. We couldn't catch muffins. And that's that's what we had our only our only dispute of the of the race >> where he took so he was so slow getting back to the bike and then I was like, "Right, calm. I'm just not going to let him know that it's now tight for time."

[00:07:29]Pedal really quickly and then we got to the bit where we should have seen you.

[00:07:32]He knew the run like we the field was too dense by that point. So I was like, "Right, okay. They've already gone." So, so, so, so actually like we just to talk talk through the race quickly. The >> I'd looked at previous year's results and I thought if I was going to be around about 75 minutes, which was my target, then I'd be somewhere in the top five or top 10. Yeah.

[00:07:51]>> Like that was roughly historical results.

[00:07:53]>> Um, and so yeah, I got to the front of the pen. We we headed off and then I turned to Freddy after about 100 meters.

[00:07:58]I was like, "Oh my god, either this is a much deeper year than normal or there's some lots of ambitious people in front of me."

[00:08:04]>> Yeah. Um and it was probably a bit of a mix of both probably 50 people in front of me at that point. Yeah. Um, so, so that was the course was challenging that mentally was challenging and then probably just the most important thing I want to talk about today because I need to work out how to do something about it for next time is I was debilitatingly nervous like >> for the 72 hours beforehand probably like the whole weekend it was bank holiday Monday this race I couldn't sleep I had like >> why >> I I don't know I well I mean I do know because I cared about it and I've been building up to this Valencia in December.

[00:08:40]>> What was your main fear about it?

[00:08:42]>> Well, like like pro debilitating debilitatingly >> to the point where I feel like it negatively impacted my performance ultimately cuz I just couldn't sleep a couple of nights before and I was like really anxious. I had this sensation of like you know if you're feeling slightly nauseous and you like start salivating like you can your mouth start watering like when you're about to be sick.

[00:09:01]>> Yeah.

[00:09:02]>> That's how I felt for like the whole weekend before it to the point where I was like am I actually getting >> sick? And then I did a little Google search. I was like, can you is like extra salivating a symptom of nerves and anxiety. And and obviously this wasn't a medical response, but the answer was yes, >> cuz it can change the way your body feels. You can start to tummy can start to feel a bit funny. And if your tummyy's starting to feel funny, then you can like produce extra saliva. And I just felt awful.

[00:09:26]>> So what was the main thing that you were worried about?

[00:09:29]>> I think I was I was worried about how hard I found the half the first time.

[00:09:33]>> Yeah. Um, I was worried about the fact I knew actually date deep down the course was going to be a real challenge.

[00:09:38]>> Mhm.

[00:09:38]>> But I think mainly I was worried about the fact I'd worked my ass off for 4 and a half months training for this thing.

[00:09:44]>> Actually longer than that. Probably the best training I'd ever done >> and then the last two weeks with traveling to Boston and then staffing like London and supporting all that sort of stuff. I just felt so tired and I was worried that I'd like kind of thrown all that hard work away >> and then that yeah, I was going to go and not be able to do this thing that I was so desperate to do.

[00:10:00]>> You haven't really had any time off, have you? No, no. And I'm I feel completely I know we're going to talk about this in this episode today, like how you feel after a race. Like now I don't feel >> I feel really emotional. I feel like on edge.

[00:10:13]>> I feel kind of a little bit empty. That kind of like well I've done this thing I tried to do.

[00:10:17]>> Um and now I don't quite know what's next. I just feel absolutely like bone tired, like deeply exhausted.

[00:10:23]>> Can I just ask what what did you do well yesterday?

[00:10:26]>> Oh, it's a nice positive Sarah. Um, >> what would JC Perry do?

[00:10:32]>> I I really like I totally executed my pacing plan. I was like looking at my splits actually. I'm really proud of those. So like should we fast forward and just give a result and then Yeah. So I was trying to run sub 75 minutes.

[00:10:45]>> Mhm.

[00:10:45]>> My actual Garmin time for the half marathon distance was >> 75 minutes and 1 second.

[00:10:53]>> Jokes.

[00:10:55]that afterwards cuz you know official unofficial obviously we would never post a watch time or a straa time or what that is not your time you have to go with the chip time but I did say to Andy cuz he was obviously upset afterwards I was like what does your straa time say that might make me feel better and it was second >> so that did not make me feel better but it did make no but it sort of did because I was like I'd set out to run through those splits and I did it and 75 7522 was my actual time >> um 22 I thought it was on your watch as well. You thought it was 24. So anyway, you got 2 seconds back.

[00:11:28]>> Winner.

[00:11:29]>> Um, >> so the sleep basically did it. Sleep cost you 22 seconds.

[00:11:32]>> No, no, no. Positives. Positives. I smashed the pace. You can do it. And from the beginning almost, no, actually from about 5k in after we There was an early hill at about 3k in.

[00:11:45]>> Um, 3 or 4k in that really sapped my legs. From that point, I felt battered.

[00:11:51]Like I felt exhausted. did. I was like, "How am I going to run another 18k?"

[00:11:54]>> Yeah.

[00:11:55]>> 17k at this.

[00:11:56]>> Um, but I just stuck at it. I was like, well, let's run the kilometer I'm in.

[00:12:00]That's your mantra. Run the mile you're in. So, I did do that. I just like I'm just going to get to the next beep and I'm going get to the next beep and I'm going to take my gels on time and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do all of that stuff. And I just ticked over the kilometers and I was I was nailing the pacing and I I'd given away a little bit of pace deliberately during the the hilly section because I had to.

[00:12:18]>> Yeah. Um, I'd have killed myself to run 330 per km up that. Um, but then all of a sudden we got to 15 16k 10 miles nearly n 9 miles and I felt great. All of a sudden the end was in sight. I was like 5k to go. I can do this. I was checking the splits. I was like I'm going to nail this. I just need to pick it up a tiny bit. So not like start sprinting, just squeeze.

[00:12:38]>> And Freddy, for the first time ever, >> running with him, he was breathing really heavily next to me and not doing very much filming. And I and that that gave me a massive lift once competitive.

[00:12:49]But I do think this is a big disadvantage for me being in a race like when I did Newick last year and Milton Keen.

[00:12:53]>> I don't think I've even seen Freddy breathe. Never mind breathe.

[00:12:56]>> Yeah. Exactly. Is in those environments.

[00:12:58]So I ended up eighth.

[00:12:59]>> Yeah.

[00:12:59]>> And from 9 10k I didn't see anyone else.

[00:13:03]Just me and Freddy running together. So that moment of feeling like you know what I could actually drop Freddy here.

[00:13:08]Like that's what went through my head.

[00:13:09]But that gave me a big surge of like confidence and spirit. What did um Andy Hobdale say afterwards?

[00:13:15]>> Oh, he he he knew it was going to be a tough course, so I think he'd just been like trying not to let me get in my own head beforehand, but afterwards he's like, "Yeah, run under 74 minutes somewhere flat."

[00:13:25]>> Um cuz it was cuz then it started twisting and turning and >> Yeah.

[00:13:28]>> And and then you can see on my um on my Garmin Connect elevation profile at 11 between 11 and 12 miles. So like a really key point when I've really got into my rhythm, me and Freddy are properly motoring now. like I'm running 320 something per kilometer.

[00:13:43]>> Yeah.

[00:13:43]>> Um and I'm making up the time that I know I need to make up fractionally to get the job done.

[00:13:47]>> And then we just hit this like >> beast of a hill it felt like at that point. And it was up and over quite quickly. It was probably 30 seconds to get up and over it. But it just destroyed my rhythm and my momentum.

[00:13:59]>> And then coming off the back of that then I just had this like slight flicker of cramp which I was really terrified about. Um but and this is where we can have a bit of fun you guys.

[00:14:09]>> Oh god. So, I had stashed on my person two gels. I was planning to take two gels on the roof, >> but then two I Yeah. took a gel out like 25 minutes and then another gel at 50 minutes.

[00:14:19]>> I suppose when you're only running for, you know, an hour and a bit, whatever.

[00:14:23]>> Exactly. Piece of cake.

[00:14:24]>> I've been paranoid about cramps. I had cramps in both my marathons. I had cramps at the end of my previous half marathon, which scuppered my attempt at 75 minutes.

[00:14:31]>> And I'm convinced for me it's not an electrolyte thing. And there the science is out anyway as to whether actually electrolyte levels will will impact your like cramping. I'm sure it's a muscular fatigue thing. And so I've been trying to get fitter and do all the gym stuff, but I also had a backup like a break glass in case of emergency, which is pickle juice.

[00:14:49]>> Oh, right.

[00:14:50]>> So pickle juice, I'm not 100% sure of the mechanism. We touched on this last week.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah, it's something to do with shocking your nervous system out.

[00:14:56]>> People are all over it at the moment.

[00:14:57]There are signs about it everywhere. So I had a courses I had a 60 mil sache of like like in like a gel format.

[00:15:04]>> 60 mil.

[00:15:05]>> Yeah, it's quite a lot. And I basically tore the sound >> to the t the top off it and I started sipping on that and I didn't have cramp then it actually it was probably about 3k to go that that started.

[00:15:14]>> And so then I I basically was holding in my hand and just sipping it as much as I could but I was very close to being sick.

[00:15:20]>> How did it get tastes disgusting?

[00:15:22]>> I I love a pickle.

[00:15:23]>> Well, honestly I'm a bagel and a pickle.

[00:15:26]I want to have a bagel without pickle without can find out how much you like pickles because I've brought the pickle juice with me for you two to try right now.

[00:15:33]>> So, give me a second. I'm going to pour two little cups. I'm >> not sure about the juice version of it though cuz I I I'm all in for the actual pickle but just juice.

[00:15:41]>> This is it. Little uh no cramp shot it's called.

[00:15:44]>> Has it got anything else in it as well as just raw pickle juice?

[00:15:47]>> Acetic acid, which is essentially vinegar, I think. Vitamin C and A, sodium, magnesium, and zinc. So, >> there's no flavor. Well, I mean, it's the flavor of pickle juice. Sarah looks so horrified of this.

[00:15:59]>> I'm I'm all in for this. Try. So, I I would neck this obviously because I cramp for about half a day doing London.

[00:16:06]How much are you going to neck?

[00:16:07]>> Well, you've got to have half of it. Try a whole one of these.

[00:16:10]>> But we're not running. So, let's just have a little >> Give Rick that. Well, actually, no. Give Rick whatever's got more in it.

[00:16:14]>> Whichever's got more in it. Okay.

[00:16:16]>> Okay. I'm not going to have all that.

[00:16:17]>> Right. So, I've handed you your lovely glass. Oh, Sarah's just done a wretch just just from smelling it.

[00:16:22]>> I'm not going to smell it. I'm just going to go straight down. Ready?

[00:16:24]>> You're going to drink all of it.

[00:16:25]>> I'm going to drink a lot of it. I'm just going to taste it. Cheers. Pickle juice.

[00:16:31]>> Oh god. Do you know what it tastes like?

[00:16:35]>> It tastes like >> No. No.

[00:16:38]>> If you put McDonald's cheeseburger into a shredder.

[00:16:42]>> Oh, yeah. The pickle in the top. That's what it tastes like.

[00:16:45]>> See, >> as someone who likes pickles, I I could drink that. I I could do if I knew it worked. I could drink that. I can work with this.

[00:16:53]>> Well, I was like so desperate not to have that experience of cramping that that had really hindered those last two that that obviously sample size from this perspective. N equals 1. Like it's a very small sample of me having tried it.

[00:17:06]>> I don't know. I think it's something about the neurological pathways or the nerve path or something where it tricks your it says to your brain. It's such a shock to your taste buds and so on that your brain is then >> I'm taking a so horrible.

[00:17:18]>> Let's take a so bad. A she's >> I think we should I'm I'm all in.

[00:17:24]>> You know, I'm almost I'm almost brushing her tongue with her fingers. No.

[00:17:30]>> No, I don't want coffee.

[00:17:31]>> Are you okay?

[00:17:33]>> You got a bad back.

[00:17:34]>> There's no amount.

[00:17:35]>> Your face is falling apart.

[00:17:36]>> ARE YOU ALL RIGHT? YOU GOT TO GET on a plane to Argentina in a bit.

[00:17:39]>> Oh god. Yeah, there's literally no amount of like Oh, >> just just a big no from you.

[00:17:46]>> But I did survive the cramps thanks to that. And and you asked me about the positives like that that was one of them. And also this the big biggest positive I ran like close on a minute personal best I've ever ever run before in my life >> and I was annoyed about not going under 75 minutes. But I think actually when I I think about it most it's I find the half marathon distance so difficult >> for the marathon running say 355 4 minutes per kilometer for me is easy in inverted commas >> and it's more I know it's going to get hard later.

[00:18:14]>> Yeah. where I was running at 330 per kilometers. Even though I can run faster than that, my 10k I did recently really gave me loads of confidence.

[00:18:20]>> Like I'm so close to that red line right from the very beginning that that it's it's way more attritional.

[00:18:25]>> Can I give you some friendly advice?

[00:18:26]>> Yeah.

[00:18:27]>> I feel like the biggest thing you need to tackle here is the fact that you race like three times a year.

[00:18:32]>> Yeah. And that's why it's such a big buildup to it, right? That I was like so anxious.

[00:18:35]>> Sign up. Sign up to a trail one. You live in the countryside. Sign up. Sign up to something where it literally Sorry, still use the pickle. Sign up to something where doesn't matter. So like the half marathon that me and Tom >> Nothing I do doesn't matter to me.

[00:18:51]Everything's really important. I get I'm almost vomit worthy. Vomit. I'm almost vomit inducingly nervous for a >> as in so like Milton Ke. No, but this is because you literally optimize everything. So like Milton Ke you can run a PB there. So go out, find a trail run, a hilly 10k, a hilly half marathon, sign up to your local running clubs midweekly.

[00:19:13]>> Literally does not matter. Race other people just like taking time to do all that, Sarah.

[00:19:17]>> No, I know. But I just feel like this is not conducive to like running a personal best.

[00:19:22]>> Turning yourself into a shell of a human being.

[00:19:25]>> Have you got the shakes? I'm just looking at your hand hands.

[00:19:28]>> Yeah, he's so nervous. Have you got the shakes?

[00:19:30]>> Literally, no one cared. As in like the best thing I heard after the race was, "Oh, your daughter asked like, "Oh, how did you do?" And you went, "Oh, well, I wanted to do this and I didn't do that, but I did run a PB." And she literally stopped listening to you halfway through when you were talking.

[00:19:44]>> Yeah. And she went, "Well, that's brilliant then." Yeah.

[00:19:46]>> And she's like, "And that's really close."

[00:19:48]>> And then she literally went, "Right, can we go shopping now?" That's the attitude you need to have.

[00:19:52]>> I remember my agent before the Olympics I'm nervous for, just being like, "Well, everyone's going to be watching East Enders by Tuesday."

[00:19:57]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:58]>> No one cares. Um, and that was that I do need that reset. But yeah, it was it was >> awful and I need to get better at dealing with that because it was >> um >> maybe we'll sign you up to some >> holiday. Did I tell you I was once on holidays?

[00:20:11]>> No one cares, right? Should we >> Speaking of, however, you did go for a run today.

[00:20:16]>> Don't worry about me. It's all >> No, but you're recovering from a marathon. This is my segue.

[00:20:21]>> Physically pickle.

[00:20:24]>> I I genuinely I am a little bit worried about you. Sarah's really I mean I said I felt nauseous with nerves. Are you feeling nauseous from the >> She's got the shakes. You look like you're going to vom on me.

[00:20:34]>> And how are you doing?

[00:20:35]>> I'm fine.

[00:20:36]>> Okay, great.

[00:20:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got up and went for a run today. Yeah.

[00:20:40]>> Yeah. How far did you run?

[00:20:41]>> Stop being so smug about being 5k.

[00:20:48]>> I thought you were going to say you'd done like a mile.

[00:20:50]>> I just went I just went out for I like Andy felt the physical after effects of running a big race and I actually did have the shakes as well but so I didn't go for a run the first week you're not supposed to but this morning I thought right nine days on I'm ready let's get out and >> how was it >> it I mean it was good to be back out actually it was nice it it felt good but I do I do feel like my body has needed that week of doing >> nothing to actually recover and you know I've got three I've lost three toenails pretty rough lovely.

[00:21:27]>> One's got three layers, you know, so but your body needs that. You need to take a step back. And I had the shakes as well.

[00:21:33]>> It's that that weird feeling of sort of being cuz you are still depleted of of kind of energy and um energy and fat stores and the stuff that you would have been obviously spend a lot of time car bloating. Sarah's still struggling juice. Um >> and and then and then afterwards like everything has been you've sort of maxed everything out and that's that's how I feel right now. I feel empty of both like I slept last night the best I slept in months cuz I was just all of that anxiety had lifted cuz I didn't have to worry about it anymore >> and had nothing else to think about and I was so I'd gone completely to my limit.

[00:22:08]>> Um and so I was then just like totally exhausted.

[00:22:10]>> See I didn't sleep well the day after the marathon.

[00:22:13]>> Yeah. But then I think that's the difference. I mean still half marathon is hard but I think that's potentially the difference half marathon to marathon. So should we start should we talk about so two things are happening when you've run >> we're going to focus on marathons here but you can kind of apply it to >> I think they apply to everything but so it's probably just that the ex extreme the extreme nature of the physical beating that your body takes during a marathon is is more and like the obviously impact load you've literally taken twice as many steps as you've taken a half marathon. So >> yeah and the length of recovery like is directly related to kind of how far you're running. So we're going to talk about what happens physically and what happens kind of mentally and neurologically to you.

[00:22:51]>> Neurological that one.

[00:22:52]>> Okay, great.

[00:22:53]>> So physically we've got microscopic muscle tears and doms. I'd say that for me is usually what prevents me from being able to sleep is kind of not cramped.

[00:23:05]>> So delayed onset muscle soreness. So that's that's usually worse the second and third day after hard. So you can wake up on the day after a marathon and actually not feel so awful. But then and this is the same if you if you start lifting heavier weights in the gym all of a sudden or do a really really extreme track workout that's way harder than stuff you've done before. Then you would expect that because you've challenged your body in a different way.

[00:23:26]Yeah. You've you've gone through this level of adaptation that requires these muscle.

[00:23:30]>> There are also blood markers that indicate muscle damage. And weirdly I had a blood test last week and then it showed up straight away.

[00:23:37]>> Oh really? That you had muscle damage.

[00:23:40]damage blood test.

[00:23:41]>> Is that too personal a question?

[00:23:43]>> I I love an occasional blood test.

[00:23:46]>> Okay.

[00:23:47]>> Just for the crack.

[00:23:48]>> Yeah. Just go and have an occasional Don't you do it.

[00:23:51]>> No. I haven't had a blood test in like 15 years. I don't know.

[00:23:53]>> I've never had a blood test.

[00:23:54]>> You serious?

[00:23:55]>> Yeah.

[00:23:56]>> Maybe we should. What? What? What are you looking for, Rick? So, this is an assignment. What am I looking for? The the the elixir of youth. Just >> Right. Let's stick to >> No. No. No. Well, actually, when it comes to what's going on in muscle damage, I think they look for stuff like creatin kinase.

[00:24:15]>> You think they do? Creates >> kynise and and what's >> Yeah, go and try and say this one.

[00:24:20]>> Lactate >> dehydrogen dehydrogenase.

[00:24:24]>> I'm glad he had two goes with it.

[00:24:26]>> And they and so like specifically those two you can take six to eight days after a marathon. So I had a blood test after about 4 days and all those markers were heightened. But I think that's something that's interesting to think about because I think quite often we will say so many people will say like listen to just in general life, listen to your body, go off of how you feel. But I do think when it comes to marathons, you need to also consciously be aware of like what is happening inside your body as well because most people, especially now with like social media and just like how fast stuff is in day-to-day life, it feels like ages since you ran a marathon. Like absolutely ages to me.

[00:25:06]Might not to you, but it's literally 9 days since. So, your blood markers might have only just stabilized, but I'm guessing you now feel >> I feel back to normal now, but last week I wasn't surprised when those blood markers were heightened.

[00:25:18]>> Yeah, but I think most people >> in the week after there's a lot going on.

[00:25:22]>> Yeah.

[00:25:22]>> You know, physically you feel sore, but you're not supposed to run, are you? In the week after a big race, >> I think pros might and and like more experienced runners who regularly do, you know, a large volume of miles every week. Um or Yeah. But but for a regular person, I don't think you should rush back and giving it that first week off is like is very sensible. Um you can get out and do low impact stuff, swimming and cycling and things like that. So it's not like you can't exercise, >> but yeah, your body's taking a a beating and and and this this applies to like half marathon, 10K, 5K. If you've gone really hard, maybe the length of time doesn't need to be the same, but you still need to just give yourself a chance to to deal with all these things.

[00:26:00]The same things will be true. The microscopic muscle tears that then lead to delayed onset muscle soreness. you're going to have an inflammatory response as well, which actually you need >> and that's an interesting this is an aside but I think don't come at me I'm not a doctor but like when you get an injury like an acute muscle injury like you might have a muscle tear or something then obviously if you think about the way pain medications marketed it's often anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory uh pain uh yeah an NS aid like a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug so that a lot of people might think well I've I've I've felt a ping in my calf on my run, like I felt like I've slightly torn my muscle or a muscle strain or something. I'm going to take something anti-inflammatory like ibuprofen straight away to try and knock that on the head. But actually, your body needs the inflammatory response to recover and to repair.

[00:26:50]>> So, you don't So, inflam inflammation is not always a bad thing.

[00:26:53]>> You and I have talked about this about where when or when you should not take paracetamol and ibuprofen.

[00:26:59]>> Yeah.

[00:27:00]>> Yeah. about if you've had a bit of a knock while you've been training.

[00:27:04]>> But there's there's a lot going on with your immune system like in in general because doing big races can create this kind of open window of immune suppression which makes you more susceptible to >> upper respiratory infections if you two got ill straight after a race.

[00:27:18]>> Do you know what was really weird before Rosdam? I got ill before.

[00:27:22]>> Right.

[00:27:22]>> So I and I'd heard the stuff about like anti-inflammatories. So, I was like, "Right, well, I can't really take like ibuprofen on the day, but I started to feel like I was getting a cold the like a couple of days before." I don't know if it was just >> paranoia, >> paranoia, mixture of like getting on a plane as well. I just felt really stuffy.

[00:27:42]>> Feel dry, don't you?

[00:27:43]>> But I was like, "Oh no, I'm getting ill.

[00:27:45]What am I going to do?" Um, and I def and then on marathon day felt absolutely fine. And then afterwards, felt 10 times worse. And I think that's probably because your your immune system is down, especially like if you go back into work or like if you've got kids, any cold that you might have been able to get rid of.

[00:28:01]>> Yeah.

[00:28:02]>> You probably can't.

[00:28:02]>> Yeah, that that's definitely true. But also I think there's the impact of of like it's like if you have a you remember final exams at university or like you're building up to a massive thing and you sort of you know that you can't get ill so you >> kind of don't and then the moment that that your whole body and psychology relaxes after you've done your final final exam that's when you get ill.

[00:28:22]>> That's why I also think I'm always hyper aware that I might get ill in the taper >> cuz I feel like sometimes you're almost giving your body a chance to get ill.

[00:28:29]>> Yeah. It's like it's that like weird reverse thing where you have to allow your body to recover to then be fresh for race day, but then also you're recover whilst also like relaxing.

[00:28:42]>> But there's all this stuff going on, but what can we actually do to stop it? I mean, when you hear that you might experience respiratory fatigue or even spinal shrinkage. I mean, it doesn't sound very nice. So, but what what can is there anything you can do to stop it?

[00:28:58]I think it's just being really sensible post marathon >> and the the I would argue as well I mean it's a hard one but broadly speaking the better trained you are to take on something like the more that you've done to get ready to take on that extreme event or that race then the quicker your recovery is going to be and the quicker all of these markers will return to normal but only if you're sensible. So if you if you finish your marathon and then spend the next two or three days partying and drinking heavily and all of the stuff that you know will hamper your recovery anyway because the combination of alcohol and caffeine makes sleep quality poorer etc. >> Like if you're doing all that stuff then you're much more likely to get ill because you know you've suppressed your immune system. All of this sort of stuff.

[00:29:38]>> So it's kind of >> being well trained in the first place and then just give yourself give your body a chance. Eat relatively healthily.

[00:29:46]uh sleep as much as you can or spend time resting. Do you do a little bit of stuff to stay active? Like before we go on to maybe what we should call the reverse taper, which is is almost like tapering back up to exercise in the opposite way to what you did before race >> is just addressing the other things that I'm experiencing right now. So like central nervous system fatigue like just you talked about the shakes. I think that's related to that. like you've put your body under a lot of stress. The hormone balances off. All of the stuff that would be helping you to recover is going to take a little bit of time to come back up to normal levels anyway.

[00:30:19]So, your sort of ability to recover is is impaired >> and you just I feel cognitively >> foggy.

[00:30:25]>> Yeah, maybe that comes across in this episode.

[00:30:28]>> Sorry, pickle juice. Um, another thing as well that I think is quite interesting is brain mileelin depletion.

[00:30:35]Um, so recent MRI study has shown that when the body runs out of glycogen during a marathon, the brain can actually start burning its own myelin lipids, which is the fatty insulate, which is the fatty insulation around nerve fibers for energy.

[00:30:49]>> That does sound quite alarming, but yeah, but apparently researchers believe that this temporary myelin depletion acts like a workout for the brain and the myelin rapidly regenerates within a couple of weeks to a few months.

[00:31:00]>> It's quite a long time though.

[00:31:01]>> But yeah, that is quite a long couple of months. And I think that's like another reason people run marathons in all different ways, but especially like if it's if you are racing flat out, you're on your red line or if potentially your training hasn't quite gone to plan and you've lined up and kind of attacked the marathon without necessarily doing all the things that you should have done.

[00:31:22]Both of those things are probably going to lead to kind of a longer recovery. So just bashing out like marathon after marathon is really going to start to take a toll. If Rick were bashing out marathon after marathon, it might actually explain his uh his his like general brain functioning level.

[00:31:38]>> Yeah. You just secretly running a marathon a week.

[00:31:40]>> I just feel very calm.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah. Great. Okay, perfect. Well, should we talk about the reverse taper then?

[00:31:45]Cuz I think this is something that I've got wrong now twice in my past two marathons. So, I need to listen to this because I think I've got very confused.

[00:31:54]>> To me, a week is a long time. So like if you know I take my full week off. I run run a marathon on Sunday for London and Rotterdam. I took my full week off. Then on Sunday I went for a gentle run and then >> really just picked things back up again as if it was hurt back and then hurt my back. Then you know I went to the physio and apparently I have no core. So we're just we're unraveling like a whole a whole load of stuff over here. But I think this is a very good idea that I should have done.

[00:32:24]>> Yeah. And even straight after the race yesterday, Andy, coach Andy texted me and I misread it to start with. I misread it as I was like, "Oh, that's generous." I thought he'd given me three weeks off. He said, "Three days." He said, he said, "Don't run for three days at least. Just give you like cuz I was saying to him, I just feel so beaten up after that. Like I feel so like I've gone to to zero."

[00:32:44]>> And it's hard because you have like if especi like you ran a huge PB, there will be loads of people who will have felt the fittest they've ever felt. And regardless of whether your race goes well or it doesn't go well, that's actually something we're talking about in uh the Running Channel club podcast episode this week of kind of what to do if things don't go to plan. But sometimes it's really hard to go from like right, I'm the fittest I've ever been.

[00:33:08]>> I don't want to lose this fitness. I need to bank it.

[00:33:10]>> That's discipline because actually in the long run you're going to do yourself more harm than good. Give yourself time.

[00:33:15]>> Taper back up. take back up. So what? So in the first week, depending on how much you run, potentially just don't run at all. Focus on recovery. Can do some cross training. My only thing with cross training is if you're if you never cross train, >> I don't feel like it's the time to introduce it postmarathon. This might just be a me thing, but I tried to do that after London. And as someone who never swims and never cycles, >> oh yeah, >> I just feel like it was absolutely pointless. Well, you use different muscles as well and then all of a sudden those muscles are like and that movement makes you slightly more sore >> and I Yeah, I just feel like that's where I went wrong. So, you know, if you I went out for lots of dog walks because I do that normally anyway, but don't suddenly, you know, see everyone going out for swims and cycles and be like, "Right, >> I am >> Tom Dailyaly/ insert cyclist here."

[00:34:03]>> Tom Daly not famous for swimming obviously.

[00:34:05]>> I know, but I mean he has to swim out of the pool swimming trunks. Yeah, I think that's the connection.

[00:34:10]>> Tom Pety is who I was thinking of. Tom, Adam.

[00:34:14]>> Adam Pety.

[00:34:15]>> Give us some more pictures.

[00:34:16]>> Week two.

[00:34:18]>> How's that cognitive function?

[00:34:19]>> So good. I'm on week five.

[00:34:21]>> I think in the first week post marathon, you're putting on a pair of speedos and going up the 10 m board >> for a bit of light cross training to do some gymnastics, diving into the pool.

[00:34:31]>> Then uh >> right, so week two, this is when you can start to reintroduce running back in.

[00:34:37]But it's short. It's easy.

[00:34:39]>> Yeah. It might be walk jog. It might be every other day. Like it's just don't put the pressure on yourself to get out there and do anything that's too too intense. And you could use this just just shortened after a 10k or half marathon. Just like >> just give your body the chance to recover. So it might just be a couple of days instead of a week. And then it might be easing yourself back in something where you're like, you know, I've asked you you've asked your body to do something really extreme. If you run a personal best, it's >> the fastest it's ever done something before. So, you know, give yourself a chance. M >> basically you're kind of in a taper for >> six weeks.

[00:35:10]>> Six weeks.

[00:35:10]>> Seven weeks.

[00:35:11]>> Be seven weeks. So it's a big chunk of your your year. You're tapering down.

[00:35:16]>> What are you talking about?

[00:35:17]>> Well, if you're doing do a marathon, you're tapering from three and a half weeks probably three weeks out and then on the way back >> and then three week taper up. So six, seven weeks.

[00:35:26]>> Okay.

[00:35:26]>> Are you just in the taper?

[00:35:28]>> Yeah.

[00:35:29]>> I can I can long on both sides. I think three and a half weeks would be a long time to taper for. Kip Limu told me that's what he tapers for going into a marathon.

[00:35:38]>> Okay. I think his tape is probably relative though. Like he's probably still running 150k a week in his in those >> same same as Mark in the office.

[00:35:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:46]>> Probably have to take.

[00:35:47]>> Right. Well, hopefully that's helped. If you have raced or run a marathon recently, do email in podcastunning channel.com. Send us a voice note if you've got any voice note. Yeah.

[00:35:57]>> And now, should we cover some exciting news?

[00:35:59]>> Let's do it. I remember a year ago we were amazed that 1.1 million people applied to be in the London Marathon 2026, but they've gone ahead and beaten that number.

[00:36:11]>> 1.3 million of us.

[00:36:14]>> A bit more than 1.4 1.4, isn't it? It's >> idea is your name in the ballot?

[00:36:18]>> No.

[00:36:19]>> Rick, your name in the ballot?

[00:36:20]>> No. My brother's >> mine is >> I just feel like it's fun. I feel like I'm missing out on Yeah, you like Sorry, not you.

[00:36:30]Yeah, >> is like premium bonds. This time you got premium bonds.

[00:36:34]>> Yeah.

[00:36:34]>> Have you >> never won anything?

[00:36:36]>> No.

[00:36:36]>> Never.

[00:36:37]>> I think so. No.

[00:36:39]>> Might want to reconsider your choices.

[00:36:42]>> Um but next year it might be that a record number of people get in through the ballot because they're considering doing it across two days.

[00:36:49]>> So it might be might be 100 plus thousand >> 120,000 people.

[00:36:53]>> One of the surprises.

[00:36:54]>> Well, they did 60,000 this year.

[00:36:56]>> Yeah. of our kind of live from London marathon in 2026 was when we asked people I know sometimes when you ask people to put their hands up if you've got to make a movement you're less likely to do it so but we asked people whether or not they thought it was a good idea to have the London marathon across two days >> overall almost everyone thought that was a bad idea hardly anyone put their hands up to say and anecdotally just a few people then asked afterwards about why they were like well does it >> in a way feel like less special >> yes because more people are doing it and doing it over two days. Like, is one day more special than the other? And do you want to be So, I would think maybe it's more special to do the one where there's going to be two days cuz I don't think they're going to do it.

[00:37:36]>> Yeah.

[00:37:36]>> Every other year after this, I think it's a one-off.

[00:37:38]>> No, I reckon they're stress testing it.

[00:37:40]>> Maybe.

[00:37:40]>> I think they're stress test. I feel like you you promise it as a one-off and then if it goes well sign up to it >> and then in years from now marathon week >> if they wanted to exceed last year's world record break then this was a waste >> I mean horsear parade was rammed anything they can do to make that small like less crowded >> you can't go I don't think they can go much bigger than what they've done >> no I don't think you get 100,000 people doing it >> it was crazy busy >> I'd love to do it on Day one though I think if if if you go that's the problem Sarah I feel like so every so if you do it on day two there might be fewer crowds people wouldn't come out as much >> no I think there would be more crowds on day two personally because look at it this way if you have day one day day one you taper you get your bib whatever la then you go out you run your marathon on the Saturday done >> day two support people support simultaneously you have got the two best experiences at London marathon you've run it and you've supported it in one weekend.

[00:38:44]>> I love your uncle.

[00:38:45]>> I haven't seen what they're planning to do about the elites cuz I think we've speculated that the only way surely to do this they'd have to have the men on one day and the women on the other day.

[00:38:52]>> I think so.

[00:38:52]>> Otherwise, you remove the prestige of like running on the same streets as like world record holders or whatever.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully the same for like the wheelchair athletes as well of setting those off.

[00:39:02]>> Yeah. I was thinking also shut down, you know, one of the biggest cities in the world >> twice.

[00:39:07]>> Twice. I mean it's kind of shut down already on the Saturday really isn't it?

[00:39:14]>> Probably every transport officer in London is like no >> I think it would be very special if they did if they do pull it off. I think it would be cool.

[00:39:24]>> I think I just want to support both days. I think it will be interesting to see whether the people of London can be bothered to come out twice. But if you think like people go to Glastonbury for 5 days so really same same >> it's not the same is it?

[00:39:38]>> No.

[00:39:39]>> Do you think you get different medals Saturday medal and a Sunday medal?

[00:39:41]>> No.

[00:39:42]>> It just one medal.

[00:39:43]>> No. Yeah.

[00:39:43]>> Do you think there'll be people that try and sneakily do There will there'll be people who try and sneakily do it twice and get two medals. That would definitely be against the rules. But there must I mean that's the sort of thing someone >> be one entry for good.

[00:39:53]>> Well, it looks like it's going to happen. So we we will review.

[00:39:56]>> Yeah, we're going to find out.

[00:39:58]>> Yeah. Questions.

[00:40:00]John from Birmingham just wanted to send an email over to say thank you because this podcast has helped me to a 4hour 23 minute and 1 second chip time at Newport Marathon.

[00:40:12]>> Woohoo.

[00:40:12]>> And something I'm even more proud of, I achieved a negative split.

[00:40:16]>> Oh, you've been out there with producer.

[00:40:18]>> Yeah. I've been running for just over 12 months and as most runners have been on a bit of a journey.

[00:40:23]>> Burped because my still going.

[00:40:26]>> She's still going.

[00:40:27]>> This is the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:40:29]In 2021, I weighed 23 stone. At the age of 30, I was in a fairly dark place mentally and physically. Then in 2023, I had quite a turnaround and got down to 15 stone.

[00:40:39]>> Wow.

[00:40:40]>> I did this making a lot of changes in my life, eating well, strength training, extra steps, but also changed my job and took myself out of an unhealthy relationship. Roll on 2025. I began with Couch to 5K in February, did an official half in April, and then did Western half in October in just over two hours. I had caught the bug, but didn't have anyone to speak to about running or even listen to, which is where I found you guys. By the end of 2025, I got bored waiting for the next episode to come out. So, I started from the beginning of the Running Channel podcast. Good god, those first ones.

[00:41:18]I don't know what it would be like to go back and listen to them. Whether we whether it be cringed >> I remember a lot of banging on about Rick pressing buttons and Rick definitely spoke a lot less. He musled his way in, didn't he?

[00:41:28]>> The first couple of months it was just Rick pressing buttons and then he musled his way in to try and talk more bringing more and more notes in to try and do little monologues.

[00:41:36]>> I'm going to continue John's message.

[00:41:38]You guys have kept me company on the three-hour long runs and what can be a very boring two easy runs a week. All three of you have said plenty of times that smiling can make the run easier and I often find myself laughing running through Birmingham as Rick who I'm confident is we go >> who I'm confident is very intelligent comes out with some absolute waffle.

[00:42:05]>> Correct.

[00:42:06]>> Accurate. Are we confident he's very intelligent? My problem is, shut up, Cambridge. My problem is I'm on I'm on episode, >> speaking of you pushing buttons in the first three, three weeks of the podcast, I think I've just found your buttons to push.

[00:42:21]>> My problem is I'm on episode 153 and I have only 13 episodes left.

[00:42:25]>> Oh boy.

[00:42:25]>> I'm not sure if it's my age or personality, but I find it difficult to meet new people. And although I'm I've pondered running clubs several times, I haven't taken that leap. How do I approach finding a running club? And do you have any advice on how to jump into the initial sessions? Thank you for all the help and advice you've given me over the past 1,000 km.

[00:42:47]>> What an email.

[00:42:50]>> Good.

[00:42:50]>> That was lovely cuz it said lots of nice stuff about us and slightly took the mickey out of Rick. So that's the perfect email if anyone's looking for one to actually guarantee getting read out. That's the that's the balance to strike.

[00:42:59]>> Can I suggest a slightly controversial approach? So I think with a running club it would actually be better if you're nervous about it to go to a interval session rather than join an easy run.

[00:43:13]You might think like oh I'll go for an easy run I can chat with people that would be lovely but that you're signing yourself up for like a continuous run where >> you know you potentially do have to keep up or like you might be thinking about that. So I would say >> on the track you could just you could walk at any time or you could you can regroup in the recoveries. Like there's a lot more scope for that >> and you might only have to because that's what Tom did with the running club we're both part of. Did I tell you by the way I got him signed up. He goes >> joined a running club. Road runners.

[00:43:40]>> North road runners.

[00:43:40]>> Yeah. North as you called them for a couple of months.

[00:43:43]>> North.

[00:43:44]Um yeah, Tom goes along to that and you only have to run you run with everyone like to the location where you're doing your intervals, which is just a random, you know, little side road. Yeah. And then do your interval session, which you know, you might be running with other people, you might find people to kind of stick onto the back to or you might be running by yourself and then you will meet up at the end and then run back, but then you'll have a coach there as well. I think that to me is the least stressful way of turning up to a club running session compared to, you know, a long run or a tempo run or an easy run where you're like in a group pressured.

[00:44:16]>> The only thing I would add is just to remember that running clubs are >> the vast majority of the time, almost all the time, incredibly safe spaces of of like people just like you. Yeah.

[00:44:26]>> Who might be introverted or extroverted and might also be worried about talking to people. But the brilliant thing about going for a run with somebody else is you don't have to like you're not sat across the table from looking them in the eye having like deep and meaningful conversations. But I end up having and have often had most of my like most meaningful conversations sometimes in the middle of a long run because >> you're with someone that you know pretty well. You spend a lot of time with them.

[00:44:48]You don't have to talk. That's that's like you know when it's good friendship because it's like companionable but then you can talk because you're not looking you can you can talk about some fairly deep stuff sometimes. And it's a lovely time of year to join a running club because now if it's in the evenings, it's nice and light in the UK. And then if you're like happy with it, you can then continue it into the winter. And it literally gives you so much accountability on like a dark, cold, rainy, wet, horrible night to go out, run with some other people and share the experience of running in torrential rain.

[00:45:14]>> Yeah, I I totally agree. It's when you're when you're not looking at someone directly and you're running or I always give Shantel really bad news in the car.

[00:45:22]>> So, you know, when we're both when she's driving, so she can't react. So >> to be fair, I've had some of the best conversations.

[00:45:28]>> We're not going to the Moldes this year.

[00:45:30]We're going to Bogna.

[00:45:32]>> Nothing wrong with Bogna. It's a very nice place.

[00:45:34]>> Bogna's lovely.

[00:45:37]>> Sorry. Uh I was confident that I was intelligent, but it turns out I've just got a load of waffle coming out my mouth.

[00:45:44]>> But also, as a as a final side note, all of the stuff that John's described there is what the Running Channel club is.

[00:45:50]It's not a club where people are necessarily meeting up in real life to go for a run together. Although we do have location based tribes where you can find other people.

[00:45:57]>> Yeah, exactly. Um but it's just lots of lovely people where it is a really safe space. You can ask all of your questions in there um and get them answered by people who are kind of going through the same thing. And they're all over the world. So cool.

[00:46:07]>> And people like John will be meeting people who feel the same way. There'll be lots of people going to run club going, "Oh, I'm a bit nervous about meeting someone new." They you're meeting like-minded people. And that's why you're going to running club to meet up with like-minded individuals who want to get out there and exercise. Yeah. And all I want to do is talk about running.

[00:46:25]So you that's >> you're in the right place. You're in the right place.

[00:46:28]>> Best of luck, John. How it goes.

[00:46:30]>> This time next week, we're going to be doing this show not from London.

[00:46:36]>> Yes. However, the next episode you hear will be from London. And then the week after that, >> we will be coming to you liveish from Argentina, >> Buenoseris.

[00:46:50]>> Buenoseris. So look forward to that. If we have any listeners who are from Buenoseras, email in podcast channelannel.com. We would love to pick your brains on some stuff.

[00:46:58]>> Yeah, >> get in touch.

[00:46:59]>> We'll see you soon.