Stuart & Cliffe Knechtle Take On The Challenge From 3 Agnostic UT Students | Give Me An Answer

Added: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]Jesus said, "Forgive your enemy." Full stop. Sigman Freud said, "Forgive your enemy, preferably after he's been hanged."

[00:00:09]A pretty big difference.

[00:00:12]And yet, I believe our culture is at a place right now that's more similar to Sigman Freud than Jesus Christ. Forgive your enemy, preferably after he's been hanged. Jesus Christ says, "Forgive your enemy no matter what.

[00:00:38]I grew up in a Christian household, but I was always an atheist. Uh then I became agnostic. Uh and I've always struggled with believing in God. Um and only last year did I meet people who um they're Muslim. Uh only then did I ever feel comfortable discussing faith or um only then did I ever feel comfortable with God. um discussing God only then could I maybe sympathize with their views. Um it I I guess my question is why Christianity? I I I feel um I I guess in my short experience I felt more at home with Islam and the very limited experience that I have with it which is just discussing it with with friends and understanding it through them. Um and and their practice and their relationship with God. Um, but I I I just struggle with Christianity. And so my question is why why Christianity and maybe why not some other Abrahamic religion?

[00:01:28]>> Reject Christianity. Christianity has been used to justify the Crusades, the Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials.

[00:01:34]Christianity is a rather hypocritical religion often. So don't believe in Christianity. Jesus Christ is totally different. The reason that you should believe in Jesus Christ is he taught the highest ethical standard possible.

[00:01:49]Robert Kohl's, professor emeritus at from Harvard University said, "All the writings on ethics over the past 2,000 years are simply footnotes to the sermon on the mount." Whoever put that sermon on the mount together, Matthew 5:6 and 7, was an ethical genius.

[00:02:05]Second point, not only did Jesus teach ethical genius, brilliance, but he lived up to it. His lifestyle was impeccable.

[00:02:15]I have tried to live like Jesus. I have miserably failed. I am a dirty, rotten sinner.

[00:02:23]Christ didn't. I put my faith in Christ not because he was racist and condoned slavery. I put my faith in Christ because he taught this incredibly high ethical standard and then lived up to it. Thirdly, I believe in Jesus because as he's bleeding and dying on a cross, he prays, "Father, forgive these people who nail me to the cross." that demands respect.

[00:02:50]When Barbie and Marie Fischer looked into the hand face of Mr. Roberts in that Amish schoolhouse in 2006 in Nickelmines, Pennsylvania.

[00:03:02]And when Marie and Barbie Fiser said, "Shoot us and let the little girls go," they were communicating a biblical worldview of loving others and putting their interest before my own.

[00:03:19]And when Charles Roberts is just about to kill all the girls in that little one room schoolhouse, he looks at Barbie and Marie Fischer and he says, "I want what you've got." And then he blew them all away.

[00:03:34]The Amish in the way they forgive were incredible. And when you see that kind of reality, you begin to realize, whoa, this flows right from what Jesus taught.

[00:03:45]It flows right from an understanding that at the heart of the universe is not a cold empty hollowess. At the heart of the universe is a God who loves you and who wants to forgive you and who wants to draw you to himself. And then the fourth reason you believe in Jesus is because three days after he died he physically bodily rose from the dead and over a period of 40 days he appeared to over 500 people who saw him risen from the dead. I have to believe in Jesus because when I look at all the religions, all the philosophies of life, there is not one that comes close to Christ, in terms of credibility, in terms of trustworthiness.

[00:04:24]Stuart, what do you think?

[00:04:26]>> It all makes sense in terms of your experience.

[00:04:29]All right. Jesus said, "Forgive your enemy." Full stop. Sigman Freud said, "Forgive your enemy, preferably after he's been hanged."

[00:04:39]a pretty big difference.

[00:04:42]And yet, I believe our culture is at a place right now that's more similar to Sigman Freud than Jesus Christ. Forgive your enemy, preferably after he's been hanged. Jesus Christ says, "Forgive your enemy no matter what." All right.

[00:04:57]Emotionally for me, the only figure historically who ever said, "Forgive and love your enemy and forgive everyone was Jesus Christ." I don't know about you, but that makes an imprint on my heart.

[00:05:09]There's something about that that screams, "Yeah, this is what life should be all about. This is what it's all about." Secondly, your identity. I'd say there's a lot of identity issues on this college campus right now. Who am I? I have no idea. It's all about my authentic self. Caitlyn Jenner says, "I don't know if I'm going to ever be able to find my true identity or my authentic self, but if I do, then I'll get through the pearly gates." That is a fool's errand, Caitlyn Jenner. a fool's errand.

[00:05:37]You're never going to be able to find your true self. What even does that mean? Find my true self. My true self could be, hey, I'm a greatlook guy. I am a great-looking woman. I am fantastic at school, at sports. I could be totally puffed up. That's me. That's my authentic self. Or I am the scum of the earth. My parents told me I was a horrible kid. I have no future. That's my authentic self. No. Jesus Christ says your authentic self is you were created in God's image. Yes, you're a sinner and you're broken. So that humbles you, but you're also loved to the skies by the God of the entire universe who has a future for you. That's oh, by the way, eternal. So you also have the greatest confidence in the world. Okay, that checks out. That's objective, an objective form of identity and value.

[00:06:22]You don't get that in any other world view. What's another one? Hope.

[00:06:27]Objective hope. Guys, I hate to say it, but the number one killer when it comes connected to suicide in our nation is hopelessness, is purposelessness. And if you're here yesterday, I was talking to an atheist nihilist who said, "Oh, hope doesn't matter. Purpose doesn't matter in life." Are you so sure about that?

[00:06:44]That's like the number one most important thing in life, to have a purpose, to have a hope. Well, if you don't believe that there was a God who created you, that you have objective meaning and purpose and hope, and that you there's no afterlife, there's no heaven, I hate to say it, you you have a very subjective, fragile sense of purpose and hope. It's not even hope.

[00:07:01]It's it's blind optimism. I mean, go ahead, try and live for your family. Go ahead, try and live for your own attractiveness, and you'll die a thousand deaths before your real death at the end of time.

[00:07:13]I mean my word if you don't live for something transcendent outside of this planet your finite existence whatever you live for oh by the way everybody worships something like David Foster Wallace the great atheist said but if you worship something that's inside of space and time so your looks your smarts whatever your family it will eat you alive and so you choose my dad laid out a lot of the intellectual evidence I go by the experiential evidence Typically everything in my experience screams, hm, the Christian worldview makes a lot of sense.

[00:07:48]>> Human beings inherently are limited.

[00:07:51]Their actions are limited. And because of this, I fundamentally disagree with the fact that somebody can deserve eternal damnation.

[00:08:02]I get like I get the definition of hell being they chose not to be with God and I and so then they're in hell. And I agree with this, but I don't think this I don't think it's fair that they're stuck with that decision for eternity. I don't think there's anything that bad somebody can do that for eternity they deserve to stay in hell. So, how can God be fair?

[00:08:26]>> Give me a better option.

[00:08:29]>> What would you like to see happen?

[00:08:30]>> Maybe like they can do their time and then have have some kind of other way to like get back to have another to have some other chance. Why do you believe in reincarnation? What's the evidence that reincarnation is true?

[00:08:43]>> Well, that's not necessarily like part of the fact. Like I feel like there's there could be other like systems. I just don't agree with like somebody being in hell forever. Like why can't they serve their time in hell? Like there's still an afterlife in that hell.

[00:08:56]Like can they not serve that time, realize their mistake, and then be judged again? And then we like if the whole point of punishment is to better somebody to help them realize what they did was wrong and then to better them like that's how we like you know that's how we would I guess punish people in today's today's society. We don't we punish them they serve their time and then eventually they get better. And that's the whole point of punishment in my in my view to help people get better so that they can be good. So why why can't somebody who served their time in hell then be rehabilitated and then go back to heaven?

[00:09:34]>> I know obviously I'm going to try and press you.

[00:09:37]All right. And don't worry I'll get around to answering your question.

[00:09:40]What's the evidence that your option to the judgment of God which is reincarnation? That's the option you've chosen.

[00:09:49]>> Why do you believe that? What's the evidence that reincarnation is true?

[00:09:54]>> I'm I'm not entirely sure of the evidence. I like you said earlier, there's a truth and we have rational minds in order to try to understand that truth. But if something seems irrational to me, I would I would believe that the real truth of God would be rational and and according to like if if I were to take God and his system of you're either going to go to hell or heaven as the truth, I don't think that makes sense.

[00:10:19]That's that's my evidence that I would say like it doesn't make it doesn't logically make sense to I don't think that's fair.

[00:10:25]>> What is illogical about an eternal judgment?

[00:10:29]>> I think, like I said, somebody can't I don't think there's anything somebody can do that is so bad that forever they're going to be punished. If God is truly an all all fair god, there's nothing that somebody can do in a finite life with finite scope of their actions that should necess necessitate them to be punished for eternity.

[00:10:49]But your whole argument with me is based on I can't believe that which is not rational. And yet you're believing in something called reincarnation that you cannot give me any rational basis is true.

[00:11:01]That's a problem if if you're going to be consistent and depend on reason.

[00:11:08]There is absolutely nothing irrational for a creator God to say, "I'm giving you a gift of life. And if you choose to live your gift of life separate from me, I respect your dignity. I respect your free will. I respect that you have chosen to live your life separate from me, which means you don't want to spend eternity together with me." And that's one of CS Lewis's points in his book, The Great Divorce. people, a people group get on a bus and go to heaven from hell. They get out of the bus in heaven. They walk around and they don't want to stay cuz it's eternity in the presence of God. I resent God. I don't want to live together with God. I proved it how I live my life. And they go straight back to hell. And Lewis's point is hell is God's ultimate compliment in respecting your free will. And if you don't want to live together with God, he's not going to force you into his presence against your will and you'll spend eternity separate from him.

[00:12:12]>> If somebody were to truly understand God, I don't see how anybody could reject him because God by definition should be perfect, should give pure happiness to every single anybody who truly witnesses him. So then why would they ever reject him if they if they I that doesn't make sense to me either.

[00:12:29]But once again, I think that the answer of Jesus is very rational and very understandable, which is I want to do what I want to do. I want to do what I want to do and I don't want you and I don't want God and I don't want the government telling me how to live my life. I want to do what I want to do. In other words, I think I know the theme song of hell. I did it my way. And God says that will be hell. You will do it your way for eternity. That's your decision.

[00:13:08]And that's very attractive in many ways.

[00:13:10]And I've proven the attractiveness of it by rebelling against God and living according to the philosophy of life that says, "I want to do it my way." Period.

[00:13:22]End of story. Bug off. Stay away.

[00:13:25]>> Why can't they choose afterwards? My old perception of God was false and I actually do want to be with him.

[00:13:32]>> I understand you don't like it. You've made that very clear. God says that life is the time that you and I have to determine where we want to spend eternity. Either together with God or separate from him. It's not irrational.

[00:13:45]It's not unreasonable.

[00:13:47]You don't like it. I understand that.

[00:13:49]Many people don't like it. I don't like the law of gravity. When I trip over a stair, the law of gravity sucks me to the ground and I hurt myself. But I'm sorry.

[00:14:00]I better grow up and learn that the law of gravity is real and I better pick up my feet and not stumble down the stairs.

[00:14:08]So Jesus in the Bible insist God is just. He's loving. He proved that by sending his son Christ to bleed and die on a cross. Which means the way to afterlife is not through working off your bad karma. It means heaven is a gift that God gives you by his grace when you trust in his son Jesus Christ.

[00:14:29]So that's the big difference between reincarnation and eternal life in heaven. Reincarnation, you work off your bad karma through a cycle of rebirth, reincarnations, and eventually you attain nirvana. Jesus says, "No, you can never work your way to heaven because God is holy and you're a sinful human being. But God loves you and offers you the gift of forgiveness and eternal life when you put your faith and trust in him. So it's either works, work off your karma, you can do it, or grace. It's a free gift that God gives us because he loves us. Then when you receive that grace, your heart changes and you begin to live a new life. a new life under the leadership, the commands of Christ, of God.

[00:15:17]>> The laws are like the laws, right? Like we can like them, we can dis we can agree with them or not agree with them, sorry. We can dislike them, but they're still there, right? But if some I don't think there's again I don't think there's anybody who if they knew the real truth would ever not choose God. If I think that my I can I don't know if I could say that with certainty, but I feel like I could like if anybody knew the real truth of God and they knew that God for sure is literally happiness, they would never not choose to be with him.

[00:15:47]>> Okay. And I think that you have a very naive view of human beings. I know of human beings who know very well what's wrong and they still do it.

[00:15:56]>> Well, they do it because their wrongdoing still brings them some type of happiness. whatever misconr way that might be somebody somebody who's crazy might find happiness in killing somebody but at the end of the day we're still after that happiness. So if God is pure like like just like a pure happiness factor then nobody would never not choose him.

[00:16:16]>> Okay, good. So I agree with you. People who commit suicide do so because they think they're going to be happier dead than alive. So I agree with you. A big motive in our lives is happiness. So now the question is am I smart enough good enough to be able to define what will bring me real happiness or is God all knowing and all loving therefore I should trust him to lead me into real joy that is a fundamental question you've got to answer it and what is human arrogance I am the center of the universe what is human arrogance I'm all knowing what is human arrogance God is inferior cliff is superior. I want what I want. And humility is God, you are the center. You're the creator, and I want to do it your way. Stuart, what do you think?

[00:17:11]>> I just think the cast system is something that has >> really hurt >> your case.

[00:17:21]>> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:17:24]Has really hurt the case of of Hinduism.

[00:17:26]I I went with some Hindu friends once to a Hindu temple and everything about what was going on in the Hindu temple was to celebrate the new year that was coming.

[00:17:35]And for 24 hours straight, they had to bang a tambourine in the exact same way.

[00:17:39]If anybody missed a single note as they were rotating through banging this tambourine, they would have bad luck for the whole year. Okay, that's focusing on ritual. That's focusing on religiosity.

[00:17:52]That's focusing on you have to get everything right in order to move on to the next phase, in order to reincarnate, in order to work on karma. Okay, the Christian faith is the exact opposite of that. It's we can't ultimately fulfill what we really want to fulfill in most cases to be a good husband, to be a good wife, to be a good parent, big one in our society, to make x amount of dollars, but especially to be a good person. We'll never be able to get there. And so I don't believe the answer is somehow, oh, you got to work this off and you'll never ultimately be able to work it off unless you're a really, really good person. But then you have this cast system issue. We went to tea afterwards, me and a couple of women, and we sat down for tea and we're drinking tea, and that's when I brought up the cast system. I said, "Are you guys all in the same cast system?" And they started giggling awkwardly. I thought, "Oh man, I may may have uh stirred the pot here a little bit." And sure enough, one of the ladies turns to me and says, "No, she's in a higher cast system than I am."

[00:18:57]But we look at each other the same is sort of implied. But the awkwardness right there and I know a lot of Hindus say no we've done away with the cast system. Well that's not fully true for one but then two oh it's that sting is still there. I think the fundamental difference one of the fundamental differences between Hinduism Christianity is grace because we're never going to be able to be perfect.

[00:19:18]And the second one is all are created in God's image. So it doesn't matter how you were born, what family you were born into. Everyone has equal value and dignity no matter what. And that, my friend, is tremendously crucial right now over in certain Scandinavian countries where certain reports are coming out saying, "Hey, guess what?

[00:19:40]We've done away with Down syndrome.

[00:19:42]Finally, Down syndrome kids, we can eradicate them completely. How awesome is that?" They think, "Wow, okay, so there's some type of medical way of of healing Down syndrome." No, no, no.

[00:19:53]We're going to kill them all. We're gonna abort those babies.

[00:19:57]All right. Well, that's dignity, value, making subjective value judgments on somebody's life. And what changed the entire known world not too long ago, according to Lufere, a prolific athenostic author who's who's written many New York Times bestsellers, I think a Pulitzer Prize winner as well. He said as an agnostic, it was what God said through Jesus Christ that everyone has equal dignity no matter what. That changed the whole known world at the time. Cuz never before then did anybody ever look at people of other faiths or other civilizations or their own. If you had a girl instead of a boy, for example, you'd leave that girl on a trash heap.

[00:20:43]That all shifted and changed when Jesus Christ came.

[00:20:47]So there's some huge fundamental differences and I just want to touch quickly on your point with God and happiness. Was your point it would be easy for human beings to want God because he's the source of all. What was your point there? I missed it.

[00:20:59]>> So there there's always that thing where somebody asks, hey, if somebody has never been, you know, told about Jesus or anything or they'll be those will be judged fairly, right? Because Jesus understands that maybe this person wasn't perfectly conveyed the truth. And if they weren't perfectly conveyed the truth, then it's hard for you can't really fault them for not choosing the truth, right? And my point is like if anybody was really shown the truth of God and the truth of God is that he's good, he's the best, he's pure happiness, then nobody would ever deny that. If they truly felt the happiness that God gave them, they would never deny that.

[00:21:37]That's like I don't the it's like against like it nature that somebody would deny something like that. they would deny it if they was maybe like of course like if somebody if you went to somebody and were like hey you can't do x y and z if you want to be a Christian they're probably not going to like you know like that but if you were to if you somehow told Christ hey give him or her like this the full happiness that you get in heaven and then tell them those three things they would still choose it because they felt that true happiness I don't think anybody would deny that and that was my point >> but let's say if you were adopted and you were in a home where a single mother worked her fingers to the bone to put you through college.

[00:22:18]And once a year after being put through college and getting a tremendously successful job, once a year you'd write back to her, "Hey, mom, that was great.

[00:22:29]Great memories. Appreciate that."

[00:22:33]Do you think that that would be fair, loving, honorable, understandable?

[00:22:40]Or do you think, man, I would want to I would want to help my mom out. She spent everything on me as a single mother who adopted me as well. I'd want to come close to worshiping her cuz she's done everything for me. She sacrificed everything but her very life physically for me. Well, that's the claim of the God of the universe. It's not simply for your own personal happiness and hedonistic lifestyle which is tremendously selfish. No, it's it's understanding that the God of the whole universe created you. So what are you going to do? Just like I hope the response to that mother of yours who adopted you and work and spent her entire life just focusing on you and really creating you in many ways to give you these opportunities. What's your response going to be like?

[00:23:28]And so that's the love that is offered not just for your own personal happiness and self- aggrandisement. No, it's love that's offered to connect. And we know there are two greatest drives in life.

[00:23:39]All psychology shows this. To offer love and to be loved. Okay. Well, what worldview is going to back up those two drives the most? Because I think whatever worldview connects and explains why we have those drives the most, I think there's a very good chance that that's the right world view. Very good chance. doesn't prove it, but a very good chance.

[00:24:01]So, no. And I know many atheists who would say, "Okay, I could be happy maybe serving this God if he's my creator, but no, no, I'll be happier not serving this God, but ruling in hell.

[00:24:15]I'd much rather rule in hell than be a servant in heaven." And so, they choose to go to hell. Even if is at a place that's that's a very it's filled with deterioration and pain, they would still rather rule in hell.

[00:24:27]>> Uh would you relent that God is simultaneously all good, all knowing, and all powerful?

[00:24:33]>> Yes.

[00:24:34]>> He's all powerful. He would have the ability to prevent evil. If he's omnivvent, meaning that he's all good, uh he would have the inclination to like quell the evil. He'd want to prevent the evil or not even the inclination, it wouldn't the evil would be so incompatible.

[00:24:50]Sorry, keep going.

[00:24:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. The evil would be so >> Let's just speed it up just because we have five minutes left. Sorry. I want to get all your points.

[00:24:55]>> So incompatible with his nature.

[00:24:56]>> So because he limited his his own power he limited when he created us >> and he gave us a free will >> and by giving us a free will >> that was his ability to share his love to have that type of connection. If he didn't limit his power then >> yes but free will free will only explains man-made evil. Free will does not explain meaningless suffering. So if you had a baby that was born the day that the volcano erupted and destroyed the city of Pompei, that baby is seemingly just a casualty of God, right?

[00:25:26]Because there's nothing that we did in that situation to to cause the death of the suffering the death and suffering of that innocent baby. And yet the >> and I would disagree with that 90% there's a direct correlation between our actions and the suffering itself. A lot of people would agree with that. That 10% where it's not connected to our direct actions. Okay. Well, the claim of Genesis chapter 3 though is we crack the door wide open. There doesn't have to be a direct connection by us cracking the door wide open. It's from a cosmic level, total breakdown. From a sociological level, total breakdown.

[00:25:59]From a psychological level, total breakdown. And it just goes on and on and on. So, when you have something like animal suffering, yes, it's nothing that the animal did in and of himself, but it's the consequences of us cracking that door wide open and all hell broke loose. I >> This is my question as a rebuttal to that. Um are there because it seems like that answer opens the door up for people possibly being casualties or uh like collateral damage if that makes sense. I wrote over here um >> just sadly like war >> just about every single war there's been collateral damage >> right but I I I wrote over here like if it is for a purpose then does go does God love some people more than other people if he's willing to allow certain people to die or meaninglessly die as a sort of collateral damage because as you said evil was opened up as a door however many >> according to Luke chapter 13 when the Pharisees come and say hey why why is this man born blind here Jesus explain it do you love him less is he less man.

[00:26:54]No, Jesus says there's no direct correlation. He didn't do anything. His parents didn't do anything, >> but this was simply to show the glory of God through him, through his very suffering. Or in Luke 13, why did this wall fall down on people and kill them?

[00:27:07]Was it something that were they less than in some kind of way? No. Christ says there was not a direct correlation in somehow them being less than in their value or being loved less. It shows the entropy and the breakdown of this very world. the second law of thermodynamics >> in that situation like you could say his purpose >> sorry you you could say that his purpose would be to like be redeemed by God and therefore like his suffering would no longer be meaningless if that makes sense because there is a purpose to it >> but sure >> there's a ripple effect from any suffering how do you know that there's no purpose to a certain form of suffering >> how do I know that there's no purpose to a certain form of suffering >> yeah you're saying that there could be a purpose >> there are there are certain instances of suffering where there is truly no purpose that look I don't know for a fact either way I'm not omnisient >> but you would say that like the death of a a baby born the day of the Japanese tsunami >> right that that had a purpose behind it >> there >> that's the specific death of that individual there was a purpose behind >> there could be suffering there could be the suffering of that child made parents or adults or somebody who saw it happen start to think hm suffering in this world hm bomb. Maybe I should start asking deeper questions.

[00:28:25]>> Is the justification for suffering worth the crime? So like it it the death of a baby is obviously this like existentially bad thing. Is this really really like I I would put that on the scale of over here this is about as bad as it gets. And I would put the recognition of suffering as you just said from other people that's a good thing but that's not nearly as good as the death of that baby is bad. Right. So at least in my mind and at least in the mind of many people right so I just don't understand. I I can't bridge that gap with you because to me it seems like there's still some leftover if it was an equation there's still some leftover that meaningless suffering in that situation in which like you know what I mean that still seems unjust cuz you talk all the time about God's also making >> what's the better alternative cuz you're putting inestimable amount of value on this baby's life >> right >> so why is that baby so valuable if there is no God if he's not created in God's image has no objective value so why is it a problem to begin Secondly, the Bible clearly describes that that baby's going to be in heaven.

[00:29:24]>> That baby will be in heaven.

[00:29:25]>> Yes. But I'm operating within the parameters of Christianity. So you're saying why is it so bad? Like the alternative is like well if suffering but it's like if there is no God meaningless suffering and meaningful it doesn't matter. It's not a problem for the atheist as it is a problem for the Christian. It's a problem for the Christian.

[00:29:42]>> No, it's a problem if it bothers the atheist. It is a problem for the atheist. This is why CS Lewis became a Christian. It pushed him to objectivity.

[00:29:50]It was an objective thing, subjective experience, but he knew intellectually it was objective.

[00:29:55]>> I think that's just the conclusion that he came to. I I don't see how I can bring >> Well, that that was bred out of the death of his wife.

[00:30:03]>> Yeah.

[00:30:03]>> That wasn't him just like spinning ideas in his little ivory tower >> like that. That came out of his experience. It's pretty powerful. It's a pretty powerful argument, >> right? That's correct. And I don't want to take too much time. There's people that have been asking questions that are longwinded, but I appreciate it.

[00:30:16]>> No, thank you, man. Thank you so much.

[00:30:18]Fantastic.

[00:30:19]Buddy.

[00:30:22]>> Hey guys, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. Like and hit that subscribe button in order to join the family. Also want to invite you to our church where we pastor at in New Canaan, Connecticut. It's called Grace Community Church. We are currently meeting at a middle school, Saks Middle School, and we start at 9:30 a.m. Hope to meet you there. See you soon.