The Trouble with Applying Religious Baggage to Neuroscience

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]This is Jimmy.

[00:00:02]Uh Jimmy wants to ask if we are familiar with Brit Hartley, Noon Nonsense Spirituality, and their thoughts about their work. Hey Jimmy, you're on the Atheist Experience. How are you?

[00:00:16]>> Yeah, I was wondering if you're familiar with her, you know, the work she does on her website um relating to spirituality and and the dispute she had with Matt Dillahi recently.

[00:00:29]I've not seen that. Um I've seen several of her videos. I' I've not seen the work that she does on her website, but I did hear about the dispute with her and Matt. Uh but I've not seen it yet.

[00:00:42]>> Um it kind of goes basically that Matt did a video that he titled spirituality is nonsense. And so, you know, she tried to I guess defend that that wasn't the case. And so she made a response video and used and she cited, you know, some of the research that has been kind of um going around lately that actually, you know, does study uh into religious or spiritual experiences. and she cited that in her defense uh there was this survey study out of Johns Hopkins that showed uh twothirds of atheists could no longer identify with atheist after you know spiritual experience and she was trying to say that um if if the secular community had a language to address spir spiritual experience then you know maybe these atheists wouldn't have you know identific occasion with atheism and they could have, you know, kind of salvaged, I guess, these atheists if that was your kind of contention, but um yeah, I mean, if you're not familiar with it, then um I don't know if you're do you plan to maybe watch some of the >> Yeah, I will. Yeah, I will. There are some things I agree with Brit on and some things uh that I don't. Um, I don't know necessarily what spirituality is because it is so vague. And I I do think that a person can identify as an atheist and still have some beliefs in what they call spiritual. Um there there's ancestral veneration, there's um alchemy, like there's just different things. Um and so for me, like it really depends on how a person is is defining spirituality.

[00:02:34]Um, and so like atheism, the definition of atheist is a lack of belief in a god.

[00:02:43]And I don't know why it would have to encompass um whether a person believes they have a soul or you know what I'm saying or whether they believe uh in reincarnation, you know. So I I don't think that atheism has to exclude the belief in those things.

[00:03:06]>> I think too like it it gets kind of frustrating for me because I think a lot of people assume that if you are an atheist then you don't have any curiosity or you don't have any wander about the world around us or universe or even our existence like and that's just not true. There are people who I think think skeptically and think critically and some of us prefer to understand how something is true and not just accept that it's true because I think those are two completely different positions. So when when you to think's point when you say spiritual there's no rules around that like it's a label that doesn't exclude anything and when you have a label that doesn't exclude anything I don't know exactly what it is that you're talking about at that point. So, I haven't watched the video either, but I'll definitely check it out. Um, it's just that you'd have to be able to explain to us what you mean by spiritual if you're going to expect us to accept that somebody had a spiritual experience.

[00:04:05]>> No, I definitely agree with that. That's why, you know, aside from, you know, merely watching Brit's response, I I would also look into the research that she cited, the studies in neurotheology where, you know, they kind of look at uh things like neuroorit phenomenology of uh experiences that have historically been described in Christianity for instance, as the revelation of the Holy Spirit or beic vision. and um you know they can um sort of map one per one uh the criteria that they've kind of see happening throughout history on their volunteers. So that's another place worth looking into I think uh if you want to kind of see how um spirituality is being discerned within the lens of neuroscience >> like but but it's still just using that word spiritual and the Holy Spirit like I I remember Brit talking about that dopamine effect when you go to a concert right and she compared that to what we when we were believing that we were catching the Holy Spirit in in church and I remember taking my daughter to see Mindless Behavior. Um, both of my daughters to see Mindless Behavior and I got them front row tickets. And my oldest daughter when the one that she liked came out on stage, I thought she caught the Holy Ghost. And I and I remember I remember looking at her like I said, that's interesting. She looks like how I look when I'm in church. Like she's responding the way I respond in church. And it was my first time ever seeing anyone respond that way outside of church. And [snorts] so when I saw Brit's video uh talking about how um you know um our minds are uh neurologically affected by the music and um that we uh enjoy. In the same way like if we are all in the same uh vicinity, one person has a reaction and it goes to the next person, [clears throat] right? And then the next person catches on and and she was explaining like this is what they call like the Holy Ghost um experience.

[00:06:25]Um, I have a a really close friend who is also a uh songwriter, country music star who uses this um information in their performances. And every single time like with without a fail, the audience is having this experience while he's talking about slow like molasses.

[00:06:51][laughter] He's not talking about Jesus, but they have it in experience. So, um I it's just the it's just calling it spirituality or the Holy Spirit. It's the it, you know, it's science.

[00:07:06]>> Yeah, I think it muddies the waters.

[00:07:08]Like I I feel like there's so much from a neurological perspective that we don't know yet, right? And I feel like when you get ahead of these of of the research, you get ahead of the language, you get ahead of the terminology, and you label it spiritual, again, there are no rules in the spiritual. And when there are no rules, you have no way to distinguish reality from fantasy. I don't think either of us in in the many conversations that thinker and I have online all the time, none of neither of us say that, nope, this cannot be. How the would we know? But by labeling it spiritual and then trying to tie it to what we know about our brains and the way that it works before we have the language to say maybe it is something that we experience like these mirror neurons or whatever it whatever these phenomena are that people experience in groups it that may be real but the moment you try to slap this for me the moment you slap the label of spiritual on it you're you're bringing with that word all the baggage that comes with it and I I think that there's some responsibility there that we can't just ignore.

[00:08:15]No, definitely. I, you know, I, if I leave you with anything, it would just, you know, look into that research because I think the professionals there, they're not merely describing it as like tingling ventilation or fry or the goosebumps you feel when you're listening to really good music. um you know they more describe this uh phenomenon in terms of ego dissolution and um you know interconnectivity or interconnectedness unity and you know they go they have a a pretty set uh criteria that they go by and you know I I don't think it's just um a high a spike in serotonin or something like that. Uh I I I think it's they have it a little bit more, you know, defined than that.

[00:09:00]>> But I I still don't Yeah. And like I mean this isn't something that I can say that I've experienced, right? Like it it doesn't with you saying like they like when you say they have more data that they can go by. Are you saying that neuroscientists have uh proof of a spirit that a uh that a spirit is engaging with the spirit of another human being? [clears throat] Um no what I'm trying to say is that um what what is historically you know in in religious in a religious context what has been historically described as spiritual experience uh they claim that they can they have found a certain criteria uh according to the phenomenology that they can pinpoint that kind of maps on to what you know um the religious people have described throughout the ages regarding this phenomenon.

[00:10:02]>> Yeah. Which religious experience though?

[00:10:03]Cuz they have multiple they they describe multiple religious experiences.

[00:10:08]And the one that I saw Brit talk about was the experience of catching the Holy Spirit, right? And the dopamine effect that you get. What other religious experience are you referring to that they are able to map?

[00:10:24]>> Uh well, the one the big one inside the research is ego dissolution. I think that's like one of the I guess primary characteristics of what >> ego dissolution.

[00:10:37]>> Yeah.

[00:10:38]>> What what is what is that? Cuz I I'm Cric. We can talk about egos.

[00:10:43]But what is ego dissolution?

[00:10:46]>> A complete loss of one's sense of self.

[00:10:49]It's also referred to as ego death.

[00:10:50]Maybe you've heard that term.

[00:10:52]>> Oh, the Oh, the Christ consciousness stuff. The ego death. Uh, but >> do you get it back?

[00:11:00]>> Yeah.

[00:11:01]>> So, like that's that's that personal that's that personal development stuff though. I don't necessarily see that as spiritual. Like I don't know why you have to put the word spiritual on that.

[00:11:16]That's >> like what like what what is the can can you help me understand the ego death uh like how how does one achieve this ego death right it's through developing yourself personally right and meditating and right >> yeah no that's right I mean there's various ways of I would there's a Wikipedia go Wikipedia article that's titled mystical or religious experience.

[00:11:48]And if you go down to inducement and development, they show a whole different myriads of ways that this can happen, ranging from, you know, things like contemplation, meditation, uh you know, you know, people have spoken about the god helmet. Uh you know, there's there's a pretty good list on there.

[00:12:09]>> Did you say a god helmet?

[00:12:12]>> Yeah. Or the uh corn helmet. It's a It's a Michael Person. I think he developed this helmet with really powerful magnets that's supposed to kind of mimic the the phenomenon. Uh Richard Dawkins tried it on and he didn't have any mystical experience. But he did fall under the 20% of people that don't meet the criteria that you know that don't have this experience.

[00:12:35]>> This motherfucker's out here making cerebro. Like what are you talking about? Like you put it on and you connect with other people.

[00:12:43]I'm I don't even think the they they understand precisely how it works, but it's able to mimic one of these types of experiences. Um, >> but why like what is the difference between this god him and mimic mimicking these experiences and what the sages used to do in Greece and Rome when they sat on those gas um the the gas holes and uh >> uh sniff the the fumes >> and have a a supernatural experience. or when they took fragia powder and le oysia and they would have uh these uh spiritual experiences like what's the difference with these cuz you're manipulating them. You're not actually having a a a spiritual experience like you're you're altering your the chemicals in your brain in order to experience this thing.

[00:13:45]>> It's being induced. I mean >> I think it may be possible that you know spiritual experience is always about this um transformation of perception or al altered states of consciousness.

[00:14:00]Well, so is being high, right? So like where where is the >> that's another message that people leave. I mean um like if you're referring to psychedelics, people have used that for thousands of years for divinatory purposes.

[00:14:20]>> And what what good has it done?

[00:14:24]What's that? Well, I mean, if you look into uh research surrounding that, they've had um a lot of efficacy in uh treating PTSD, uh depression, uh Alzheimer's. They're looking >> Wait, so a person that takes that is cured from Alzheimer's?

[00:14:46]>> Uh yeah, they think it has a lot of potential there because it's able to cause neurogenesis. And so, um, I mean, there's been accounts of people saying that they got their family members back because they were able to, you know, they they were able to regain their memory and, um, you know, they weren't suffering from episodes of loss of memory.

[00:15:06]>> You said, what what uh LSD did that?

[00:15:12]>> Uh, I I believe it was psilocybin.

[00:15:18]>> What's the efficacy rate?

[00:15:22]I I I'm that's one I haven't really looked into lately. I I I think they just started a lot of uh pilot studies for that particular area of research. Uh but they're trying to see if it could treat dementia, Alzheimer's, and stuff like that, >> right? But those are those are medicinal uses. We're we're trying to figure out how what makes that spiritual.

[00:15:45]>> The what what makes it spiritual? Well, well, I think um there may be a misunderstanding here. Like I I heard you say supernatural and um I think by in terms of the research, they're just going by a a specific description of a particular transformation of consciousness which they're, you know, that's kind of what they're describing as spiritual. I don't think they're describing something as uh supernatural in the sense of like violating the um violating physics here.

[00:16:17]Well, I mean, if you're taking a material substance and it's altering your material brain, my question remains, what part of that is spiritual?

[00:16:30]>> I Okay. I I'm not too sure I followed your, you know, I understand your question.

[00:16:37]>> Could you maybe >> Yeah, I'm trying to understand what makes that spiritual. If I were to go upstairs and I don't know take a rip off of a bong, then of course my brain is going to be altered by the substance that I ingested. If if you go and you know eat some shrooms or something, your brain is going to be altered by the psilocybin that you ingest. I'm asking what makes that spiritual. I've heard of these substances helping people with PTSD. I didn't know about Alzheimer's and dementia. I'll definitely look into that. But that's still a physical substance >> there. There isn't any uh evidence or cases where it actually has helped Alzheimer's. It's is being investigated um I mean researched uh as a potential um therapy for it but not cure.

[00:17:32]>> Well, I mean studies are just started.

[00:17:36]I you know I I would I wouldn't make assummation until they finished those studies. But >> yeah, but you did say that it does. You did say you already posited that it did.

[00:17:47]So you gave us incorrect information.

[00:17:50][snorts] >> Yeah, there's evidence of it. Yeah.

[00:17:55]>> You think that's safe to do? Like like h how are you any different than someone claiming that prayer works?

[00:18:06]Oh okay. When you ask what makes it spiritual, you know, according to this criteria, it would have to meet all six characteristics that constitute what they, you know, describe as this type of experience. At least within the context of the research, that's what makes it spiritual. uh you know if they meet um criteria for uh unity, ego dissolution, uh this uh lasting uh psychological change and so forth as opposed to just calling it, you know, >> like I don't know why they think that. I don't know why they think they need an eagle death. I like I I I'm still asking what is this ego death and what does it do? Like what does it do for for you?

[00:18:49]What does it do for humanity? this ego death.

[00:18:54]>> I because I ain't never met a Christian who had a dead ego.

[00:18:58]>> I'm sorry. Like, so when you're saying that like the religious You're saying like the religious experiences that Christians have and then you say ego dissolution, that's why I'm like, what the hell is he talking about? I've never met a a dead ego Christian.

[00:19:13]>> It's all about I in the conversations that we have.

[00:19:17]Well, the thing is I think there might be a misconception here because I think I heard Fe say, "Do you get it back as though you lose it forever?" I don't think that >> she was I was being facicious.

[00:19:30]>> All right. Well, okay.

[00:19:33]It's not a permanent uh experience of, you know, it's it's supposed to describe a temporary phenomenon, but a complete loss of subjective selfidentity. And they measure this.

[00:19:46]>> Um um so the way they measure this is uh there's an area of the brain that they believe that deals with um you know what we would refer to as your psych your ego in psychology the self-referencing areas of the brain where you know you talk about I'm going to I did this yesterday I'm going to do that tomorrow. Um there's they've kind of pinpointed that area and what they call the default mode network. And so when people are having these experiences, there's a huge uh diminished activity within the default mode network. And so they kind of characterize this as ego death.

[00:20:22]>> Um I I was waiting. I thought he was going to get [laughter] >> I was trying to be patient. Let my my ego die. [laughter] I was trying to be patient. What is the ego for? [laughter] What? Like why why should I want my ego to die?

[00:20:44]>> That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[00:20:47]>> Well, I mean for I I think it's that phenomenon that's being um you know that they're looking at that has this type of that that's caused for the efficacy of why these this research works at all towards um you know aiding in things like depression or uh PTSD and so forth.

[00:21:06]I I you know they they don't know exactly the mechanism for it but they you know to the to the degree that someone has this ego death phenomenon it's beneficial towards that aspect of their lives >> how >> uh let's say um there's a a woman Nina Baser she was in one of the studies out of uh NYU and she was a termal cancer patient uh who you know See, death was always waiting on her mind. She couldn't uh even handle having dinner with her family because she would always be negative and always uh bring up the the topic. And then um she decided to um attend volunteering to one of these studies and she after having this experience completely rid of her fear of death. Now she's able to have family with her, have dinner with her family and she's able to uh enjoy the the remaining days of her life and and she owes it. She she says it's due to this experience.

[00:22:11]>> I love that for her. How can we use it?

[00:22:15]Why do our egos need to die?

[00:22:18]Well, I I I think it's, you know, it's I don't think there's like one answer to that question. I think everyone kind of has uh they you know, the volunteers deal deal with it differently and it helps them in different ways. So, you know, there may be something, you know, I don't think everyone finds their way to volunteer into something like that.

[00:22:37]Maybe you feel like you're, you know, you're sufficient and and you're satisfied with your life as it currently is, you know, but there there's other people that don't feel that way. And I think that's why they take, you know, retreats into the Amazon to try or they volunteer at Johns Hopkins for psilocybin study and stuff like that.

[00:23:00]>> But how is this just not different from medicine though? Like I don't understand that. I still don't see like why you're being why it's being called spiritual.

[00:23:11]>> I mean, I would think if it were actually spiritual, I wouldn't have to ingest anything for the experience to be catalyzed, right? Like if you're saying that there's this power or there's this force or something that connects us naturally just because we are human and because we have consciousness, then let that function as it functions. Why do I need to ingest something for my brain state to be altered in order to experience this thing that you're you're calling spiritual? Like why that doesn't make sense to me?

[00:23:43]>> I don't think you do. I you know I think that's just one path of many. I mean people do um you know spend years in the ashram uh engaging in meditation or contemplation and they achieve it that way. Uh, so you know, I don't think it's necessarily the case that you have to ingest uh something something like a psychedelic to have an experience like that.

[00:24:04]>> Well, I can't go to the jungle, Jimmy. I got to go to work, you know? Right. And you're claiming that there's this >> Okay, that >> Go ahead.

[00:24:16]>> You're claiming that there's this spiritual realm that we all have access to, right? But in order to access it, there are these parameters that have to be met or these substances that have to be ingested. I don't I don't have to do that for things that are objectively real that we all have access to. I don't have to do anything special to inhale oxygen. I don't have to. That just that's just not how it works. So I'm curious to know if you're if you're saying that this I mean you gave some ex I don't know what you were reading from.

[00:24:49]You gave some parameters for spiritual, which I guess are your parameters for spiritual, but that's not the case for everyone else. So, you're still positing something that's supposedly accessible for everyone, but apparently not unless it's under certain situations and in certain circumstances. That that's just not how objective reality functions.

[00:25:12]>> Well, I would be careful with this term spiritual realm. You know what I'm suggesting with this research is that there's a potential phenomenology that we you know people experience in this research that about 70 to 80% of individuals meet the criteria for and it's surrounding a cluster um around these characteristics that I mentioned and and that's potentially what you could experience and what's being described as spiritual um you know I I I would really use the term spiritual realm I because I think carries a lot of baggage.

[00:25:47]>> Well, spiritual carries baggage. He's just not picking it up for some reason.

[00:25:52]>> Right. You You say 70%.

[00:25:56]>> That's a dispute though, is it? Like this is why Brit Hardy is trying to establish the term for and secularize it over Matt Dante who thinks it's not even worth uh you know, it's a thankless task to do so.

[00:26:11]>> I mean, I think it I don't I don't necessarily disagree with that, right?

[00:26:15]Because I feel like if if we've got the language for it and we have the model for it and we can predict with the information that we have, then we've got an answer. It's it's described.

[00:26:25]Spiritual is nebulous. Like it it's extremely vague and the person who uses the term gets to define what it means for them. That's just not the case with anything that's objective. That's not how objective reality works. And I keep going back to that because again it seems as though you're positing that every human being has access to this.

[00:26:49]But then there's a 30% of the population even in the statistics that you brought up that can't. You've got to make that make sense. You've got to account for that. If you're if you're going to make this scientific, you've got to account for that. And you haven't done that.

[00:27:03]>> Oh, I don't think it's 30% that um don't have the characteristics. It's that um so they go by six in the research and uh so in order to have what they call you know um like I guess a full spectrum spiritual experience you have to meet criteria on all six and so there's about 20 to 30% of individuals that don't meet criteria for all six characteristics but they they nevertheless do meet criteria for some. So, it's not necessarily that they don't completely have the experience. Um, you know, they just criteria.

[00:27:43]>> What characteristics could be excluded?

[00:27:46]Name one characteristic that could be excluded from this list of characteristics.

[00:27:53]>> Uh, I think the primary one they go by is unity. And u what this means is a they refer to it as a non-dual experience meaning there's a collapse between the subject object d e d e d e d e d e d e d e d e d e d econoy and you know and your everyday perception. So you know fe has a perception that she's sitting down in a chair and she's looking at a screen maybe. Um so that boundary between you and the rest of reality uh collapses inside this phenomenon. They refer to this as nondo consciousness or unity um or pure consciousness inside the research but uh yeah I mean not all volunteers may may experience that uh but they may experience other qualities that they experience like um deeply felt positive mood um you know what what in Christianity might be called agape or there's a sacredness or reverence or noetic quality after the a term they they use after William James um inability and paradoxicality uh but yeah they may not you know all reports uh the dimensional immunity >> I mean if I if I got to get high Jimmy to experience it I'm still getting high >> I I I just don't >> you said you work right I mean if they they do call I think there's a nickname they call DM MT is a businessman's trip.

[00:29:23]And it's because, you know, they're always on the go. They don't have time to take a 30-year retreat in an ashram or a temple. And so, you know, I I DMT supposedly last five minutes. So, you know, they they should be able to spare five minutes out of their day to, you know, see what it's about.

[00:29:44]>> Let me We talk to people.

[00:29:48]We talk to people every day on um our live stream uh on our show on Tik Tok and who end up deconstructing, right?

[00:29:58]People who were uh once afraid of death, who had gone through like religious trauma, who uh were dealing with um addictions.

[00:30:09]Um, and when they start deconstructing and they they start engaging uh with us in our community, right, and just learning how to question, think critically, um, give themselves credit, right?

[00:30:28]Rewire their thought processes uh, and how they see life. Uh, enforce boundaries, right?

[00:30:36]um uh accept that the past cannot be changed, learn to deal with their trauma, like face their trauma and work through it, right? Not try to go into the future and or you know to tomorrow learning how to be in the present. And we don't uh call that spirituality, but we get people all the time saying the same things, right? like oh uh one person in our community um their mom uh was a member of church uh for a very long time uh paid tithe >> [clears throat] >> uh ended up finding out that she was lied to you know like ended up questioning like um whether she was lied to about the ties. She came in, she talked to us. Um, and after she learned and researched and found out that, yep, tithing is not biblical, she was able to accept that. And then like she was on her deathbed. She was able to pass away uh peacefully like with a with a clear conscience, right? That it that it's not a spiritual uh experience, right? we didn't have to call that spiritual. Um I I don't necessarily see the need for for that.

[00:31:59]Like people get the same results for different things. Um, I mean the same results calling it different things I guess, but it's to me it's just doing work. Like I I see on Brit's page like she does coaching, right? And the coaching that she does is um basically healing trauma, right? Uh deconstruction work, deep inner work.

[00:32:24]Like it's this is why I say it I think it I agree with it muddies the water when you use the word spirituality and then you're positing that you know that that there is this other piece of you right like a soul or a spirit and I'm not saying that definitely I know that there's not a soul or a spirit I'm saying every time someone is describing a soul or or a spirit they're always talking about the things that the brain does or they're always talking about personal um development or trauma healing, right? I I I just don't see I don't I don't see anything different than anything different here.

[00:33:11]>> Yeah. Cuz we completely leapfrog over the fact that solutions have mechanisms, right? And those mechanisms are repeatable. So to thinker's point, like when when you have a person who's doing that deep inner work, the ones who are realizing that I've been using this tool for so long and this belief system for so long and now when I'm investigating it, it's not standing up to scrutiny.

[00:33:34]Let me find another template to use or another system to use that helps me accomplish the things that I want to accomplish. That's that's just self-improvement. And different people have different ways of doing that. What I use for self-improvement may be different than what Thinker uses. what you use, Jimmy, may be different than what both of us use. But ultimately, if you're if you're positing something as a solution to a problem, then that solution has to have a systematic step to follow to show us why it works and to explain to us how it works. The same thing that you say a person can take DMT for, perhaps I can journal and listen to some inspirational music and and and reach that same goal. But that's not spiritual. That's me sitting down with me and being honest with myself about the things that I want to change in my life and adjusting accordingly. You don't have to call it spiritual for it to be impactful. And I think the DNT and the uh the ayaska um it it reminds me of what I said Jesus juice is. Jesus's sacrifice is a shortcut. And actually I talked about this last night uh with Justin. Jesus's sacrifice is like a shortcut that uh gets them to their goal faster, right? Kind of like praying and asking God to help you pass a test knowing that you haven't studied or that you know you don't quite understand it. Like you want that thing to happen supernaturally. You want to you don't want to put in the work. And I feel like that's it. That's that's kind of like the same thing. Like I love what uh Brit does on her website because we need more of that, right? Like we need more people helping people deconstruct, helping people through midlife crisis, helping people work through trauma and accept and you know learning strategies >> y >> um for you know getting through that.

[00:35:31]Um, but what Brit is doing, unless she's adding the, you know, the IASA and the DMT and uh, Silicon and all of that that she's not taking shortcuts, >> right?

[00:35:44]>> So, like I don't I I don't see the the need to identify it as supernatural un unless you're doing all that. If you're going to add the juice, the Jesus juice, the, you know, the thing that helps you have that supernatural experience, that's no different than Jesus telling John to go and get some uh for geopia powder to have a supernatural experience in Revelation.

[00:36:14]>> Well, I mean, I don't think necessarily that they're, you know, talking about the supernatural with this research. I mean, even the professionals would say that it's a completely normal phenomenon. It's something that we're biologically wired for. And so, >> I'm talking about this this other dimension thing, like seeing other beings and stuff that's outside of our natural world. That would be supernatural.

[00:36:43]>> I I don't I don't know if that's necessarily the case. I mean like you know if people are taking DNT and seeing entities you know it may be something there that's you know that could be pinpointed and described in terms of you know neurohysiology that I don't see in it why it has to be necessarily supernatural >> because it's outside of our natural world that like they're saying that they're going to another dimension and seeing these beings not not that they're seeing them here like you do know that Supernatural means outside of what's natural, outside of the uh laws of uh na nature and physics here.

[00:37:27]If they're going to another dimension that's outside of our natural world, >> I I I think there might be a confusion there in that what people I don't think people are necessarily like describing transcending reality itself. I I think what they're trying to describe is it's transcending the way we usually perceive reality.

[00:37:49]>> I've read the Nope. Nope. I've read the the uh studies. They're they're claiming to go to another dimension in seeing other beings.

[00:38:04]>> That's not in every single case though.

[00:38:06]That's >> I didn't say it was in every single case. I didn't say it was in every single case.

[00:38:13]I didn't say it was in every single case. But if people are claiming that they are going to a different dimension and engaging with other beings to get information about themselves and about the this world, that would be a supernatural claim because that is outside of our natural world and the laws of physics. And it's no different than Jesus telling John to go and get some fia powder and have a supernatural experience. He told him to go buy some ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice eye ice salve and have a supernatural experience. It's no different than that.

[00:38:49]No different than the sages sitting on the the the gas holes and smelling the fumes to have a supernatural experience.

[00:38:59]>> Well, what are you saying that's different?

[00:39:02]>> Okay. What I'm saying is like if you look into like for instance Dr. Rick Strossman did some research in the mid '9s with DMC and there's current studies out of the UK as well. But what [clears throat] if when he studied that and and his volunteers did report seeing entities, you know, he didn't um assume this that the volunteer was correct in their explanation of I you know I witnessed this alternate dimension of these and I saw these entities. He would being the you know a neuroscientist would regard it as you know maybe there's some archetypes here in the mind that are being manifested in this phenomenon and he he doesn't go outside the domain of what's natural and what could be explained.

[00:39:41]>> What's your point in telling me this right now?

[00:39:45]Uh well well my my point is to to if you haven't looked into the research I you know I I'll if I can recommend one study to at least read it's um hallucinogens and mystical experience phenomenology and neurolets by Dr. rolling grippers and you know why right right now but why you don't like the word supernatural >> you you so one you think one study is going to invalidate other people's experiences and what they feel like they experienced when they were on DMT >> I don't know what the push back is about the supernatural it's not like the blue people are ringing a doorbell like they are going to in their minds to this separate realm and engaging with these beings that supernatural. Why are you pushing back on that?

[00:40:32]>> Well, no, it's it's only supernatural if you're taking it literally. Uh what's wrong with a more archetypal >> But that's their experience. You're the one trying to say that what they're saying they experienced, they didn't.

[00:40:47]How are you going to tell them what they experienced?

[00:40:50]>> No, I'm that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying in a sc in a scientific sense, we can't confirm something like that. So you know they don't you know take a leap there. They can only study the phenomenology and record that and you know that it stops right there at least for >> it doesn't matter that that what we're saying is if people are taking DMT for the purposes of go uh uh attempting to go and meet these uh beings in other dimensions. In their mind they're going to other dimensions to meet these beings. That is no different than Jesus telling John to go and get some eyes out and have a supernatural experience. It's no different. Like we know damn well Virginia Fia powder wasn't sending nobody to uh the 13th heaven, [laughter] but it was making them feel like they was on cloud nine.

[00:41:46]Well, I think there is a more profound uh experience than seeing entities and then they refer to it specifically in the research as a united mystical experience. And I I think that's what you know people are meeting criteria for at high percentage rates in each one of these studies. Uh I I think that's um I I when people describe spirituality by and large in regards to these experiences that seems to be more or less what they're describing there. Um yeah people do report synthesities I I you know but I I I don't think it's um a huge aspect of the experience.

[00:42:26]What is a huge aspect of the experience then if you're if you're discounting the the seeing of entities and the going to the different realms?

[00:42:36]>> I I would say this this aspect I just re mentioned the unitive mystical experience that that's that's what most people in each one of these studies will meet criteria for. And and it's not about, you know, seeing entities cuz seeing entities, you're still in that subject object uh relationship where you're, you know, you're relating to something that's out there that's not a part of you where whereas the unitive mystical experience that duality collapses and it's no longer about you relating to something else. It's just unity.

[00:43:14]I'm still not following how you're not seeing like in reality I am a different person than thinker.

[00:43:21]I am in a different state than thinker is in right now. So you're you're still positing that we're we're not having some supernatural experience even under the the um under the influence of these substances. It's almost like you're negating what you said earlier.

[00:43:40]Well, I unless you're uh somehow interpreting unity in some way that I'm I'm not, you know, necessarily expressing.

[00:43:51]Um yeah, I'm not saying that you're somehow fused with his mind or something like that. Uh I I think that's I'm trying to use it more in the sense that that's really describing this research. That's why I mentioned I I don't see what I mean. Do you have take issue with looking into the paper?

[00:44:12]>> No, I don't necessarily have an issue with looking into the paper, but I my my point is for what, >> right? Like we're this conversation is about these conversations are about religious and spiritual claims. And what will after I read this paper and I read this re research what will change about the re the objective reality that we share with respects to religion and the fact that spirituality is this nebulous concept that no one can pin down.

[00:44:40]>> Well maybe it won't be so nebulous after reading the paper. What I'm suggest okay if you think the revelation of the Holy Spirit is something vague and nebulous and this research is claiming that they can kind of somewhat pin it down to neurolets and phenomenology then we might have a a viable way of talking about this phenomenon.

[00:45:04]>> Whose holy spirit is >> I didn't have that.

[00:45:11]I'm sorry.

[00:45:13]>> I didn't hear what you said uh right there.

[00:45:15]>> Whose Holy Spirit is it?

[00:45:18]>> I I don't think it necessarily belongs to anyone specific. I think it's more kind of a a universal feature of consciousness that we we all >> something higher than something higher.

[00:45:31]You have a higher power. That's not atheism.

[00:45:35]No. when you that when you're positing that you have a higher power and that and and that is this Holy Spirit, right?

[00:45:44]That's not atheism.

[00:45:47]>> That's not atheism.

[00:45:50]>> It's not atheism. You have a higher power that you call Holy Spirit.

[00:45:56]>> Oh, that's not atheism.

[00:45:58]>> I mean, well, it it may explain why why when people have it, they no longer identify with atheism. I mean, Brit tried to attribute that to maybe, you know, the secular community just lacks a vocabulary to address this phenomenon, but um >> you talk about it as if it's a higher power.

[00:46:18]>> I I don't the I I I never used the term higher power, but >> I said you talk about it as if it is >> like I just asked you whose Holy Spirit is. I just asked you whose holy spirit is it and you said it's a universal it's a universal holy spirit like >> it's nebulous as hell.

[00:46:40]>> Yeah.

[00:46:40]>> I said I said it may be a universal feature of consciousness that we all can pot would potentially experience >> universal holy spirit.

[00:46:53]>> I didn't say that. That's what you literally said. It is a feature of a universal feature of consciousness.

[00:47:04]Correct?

[00:47:06]>> Yes.

[00:47:07]>> So, a universal Holy Spirit.

[00:47:12]>> I I wouldn't phrase it that way. I That's why I said a universal.

[00:47:16]>> You sound like a Christian because you literally said that they scientists have been able to pinpoint the Holy Spirit.

[00:47:23]You called it the Holy Spirit. Then I asked you, well, whose Holy Spirit is it? You said it it doesn't necessarily belong to one to anybody. It is a universal feature of consciousness.

[00:47:36]>> Why would >> and now you don't like the fact you don't like the straight you don't like the straight uh uh line logical and tell me to what you're saying. It is a universal Holy Spirit.

[00:47:49]>> That's how you like the way it sounds.

[00:47:51]Yeah, that's exactly how you just described it, Jimmy.

[00:47:56]>> Is this mushroom, Jimmy?

[00:47:57]>> Yes, it is.

[00:47:58]>> Holy I'm I'm [laughter] gonna go to bed.

[00:48:02]I got to go to sleep. Y'all y'all should have been there told me that. [laughter] >> I thought you knew.

[00:48:08]>> No.

[00:48:08]>> As soon as he came up talking about consciousness and DMT, I thought you knew immediately.

[00:48:13]>> No. [laughter] Well, you you guys get the game. I don't go to bed. I got I got to I got to get some rest tonight.

[00:48:25]>> Oh my goodness. [clears throat] >> You all right? Uh Jimmy, but thank you for calling in. Okay, I got to I got to get some sleep before my stream tonight. Have a good night. Okay.

[00:48:39]>> Have a good one, Jimmy.

[00:48:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. Good night. I hope you guys look into it.

[00:48:46]He not going to be satisfied till we eat some damn mushrooms.

[00:48:50]>> I wish I'd have known that was him.

[00:48:54]Mushroom Jimmy.

[00:48:56][laughter] >> Oh my gosh. He was gonna stay there till we put in an order. You know it.

[00:49:05]Goodness. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> Oh my gosh.