Are There Problems With Trans Escapist Fantasy?

追加: 2026-06-04

[00:00:00]So, folks, I was on the Lines Transatlantic Call-in Show yet again. I co-hosted with Luxander taking calls about trans issues ranging from advice to spicy debate. Check it out.

[00:00:12]>> B, he/him pronouns, calling from Virginia, wants to talk about trans fiction and some kinds of uh hip- hypocrisy of the hosts here. B, you're live on the line with Luxander and Riverboat Jack. How's it going?

[00:00:26]>> It's going okay.

[00:00:28]>> [sighs] >> I feel that. I feel that.

[00:00:31]>> [clears throat] >> Well, lay it on us. What's your topic for today?

[00:00:34]>> If I were to ask you to accept the idea that you giving out your home address live on stream was a good idea, would you accept that claim?

[00:00:48]>> No.

[00:00:49]>> That's fascinating question, but obviously not.

[00:00:53]I mean, trans people receive death threats and we have stalkers and stuff, so yeah, like publicizing my home address would not be an intelligent decision.

[00:01:02]>> I 100% agree with you.

[00:01:06]That would be a bad idea. Let me put on my theist hat for a second. You should have faith in the claim that it would be a good idea. Is that going to change the outcome?

[00:01:24]>> So so the problem with faith claims is that they usually come in conflict with evidentiary claims. And if I have like evidence of trans people being stalked across the world, um like I've like there was that one streamer who like had to move from Canada to Ireland and she was even stalked in Ireland and uh people like found out what hotel she was staying at because she shared a picture that included the sheets in it. So like so there's like I am very sensitive about a lot of a lot of personal information because people are crazy. So the that's what I'm saying about like faith being in conflict with evidence. There's a lot of evidence that publish that publicizing that information would be harmful to me.

[00:02:07]>> Okay. And let me take off my serious hat and put on my trans fiction writer hat.

[00:02:14]You should just suspend your disbelief and just accept that the claim. Is that going to change the outcome?

[00:02:23]>> I What claim?

[00:02:24]>> [laughter] >> I'm very confused already.

[00:02:27]>> that it would be a good idea for you to give out your home address.

[00:02:32]You should just ignore all the evidence that you're wanting to point to and just suspend your disbelief and go along with the notion that it would be a good idea.

[00:02:49]>> Is there a compelling benefit in this hypothetical scenario? Like is there like a I'm going to benefit somehow from that?

[00:02:56]>> Why why would I want to do that?

[00:02:59]>> You Exactly.

[00:03:04]Okay. What I'm saying is I feel like I I'm not saying there's not good trans fiction. Uh pose >> What is What is trans fiction?

[00:03:18]>> Are you talking about like books? Like I That's That's what I think when you say trans fiction, but I don't I don't think that's what you mean.

[00:03:26]>> Just define your term.

[00:03:31]>> I feel like it's self-evident. Um fiction that's primarily centered around transgender characters.

[00:03:41]>> Okay, so just any story that is about a trans person.

[00:03:47]>> Yeah.

[00:03:49]Okay.

[00:03:53]Right.

[00:03:54]>> Okay.

[00:03:57]>> What's wrong with that?

[00:03:58]>> Yeah, like I'm I'm confused what your argument is. Is it bad?

[00:04:06]>> [sighs] >> Um Okay.

[00:04:09]Going back to using the idea of giving out one's home address.

[00:04:15]If you DM'd your home address to each other, you're at less of a risk cuz you're good friends. You'd be doing that in private, right?

[00:04:28]>> Even then, I would probably be uh thoughtful about which platform I send that information over.

[00:04:35]>> Fair.

[00:04:36]But we're in public.

[00:04:39]>> [snorts] >> There's me and there's all of chat. And they're pretending like all of chat and anyone who could ever view this They're pretending like nothing bad will ever happen.

[00:04:56]I just find the trans fiction is just littered with the whole let's ignore all the bad stuff that could ever happen and pretend like nothing bad Let's ignore all the evidence that indicates this is not just a bad idea.

[00:05:16]It's a horrible idea.

[00:05:19]>> Well, in my experience, it's the opposite. Like in my experience, it's like trans stories are often littered with tragedy and difficulty and it's all about the like coming out and how everybody's rejecting you. Like, what do you mean? Are you talking about like escapist fantasy? Sorry, Jack. Go ahead.

[00:05:35]>> I'm I'm just I'm trying to figure out like is your issue with like trans people in general or is your issue with just you've encountered bad or stories you don't like that center on trans people. Like what cuz like I I got I got to tell you there's a lot of bad stories out there about like cis people. Like they're just not very good works of fiction.

[00:06:05]So like is the problem with like the lack of quality in the fiction or is the is your problem with something else? Like just trans people being protagonists?

[00:06:17]>> Yeah.

[00:06:19]Well, one, if you're going to have a trans protagonist, I >> [clears throat] >> I have absolutely no problem with a trans protagonist.

[00:06:32]My issue is with the pretending like things are better or worse than they actually are.

[00:06:40]>> But that's that's a component of fiction, right?

[00:06:43]>> to face him?

[00:06:46]>> But that can be a component of fiction, right?

[00:06:51]>> Um >> Like that's just a function of like the genre.

[00:06:57]Like if you're writing a work of fiction, like you can imagine a world where like trans people aren't as marginalized or are more accepted or, you know, trans people have like a role of like fighting dragons or something.

[00:07:10]Just to start spitballing ideas. Like >> Okay.

[00:07:14]>> So >> I >> Like what?

[00:07:16]>> I I go to the current location of the Stonewall riots in New York City right now and I proclaim, [clears throat] "I'm gay."

[00:07:27]Everybody around me is going to probably go, "Okay." Because we currently live in a society where Okay, that's that's that's a mundane crime. Nobody's going to care, really.

[00:07:43]>> Okay.

[00:07:44]>> I feel like these trans fiction books when I want all the drama and the good stuff of doing that back during the Stonewall riots, but the negative consequences of doing it today. I want all the good stuff, >> [sighs] >> but um not the bad stuff. You point to the idea of a society where trans people aren't marginalized.

[00:08:12]>> Okay.

[00:08:13]You're talking Star Trek.

[00:08:16]>> Yeah, nobody cares if someone's trans.

[00:08:20]>> Okay, but you also in that same society, because you're not they're accepted, don't have the drama.

[00:08:28]There is no good or bad, it's just they're accepted.

[00:08:33]>> So, I don't know if maybe this is just like because you're coming from outside of the trans community, and there's like a lack of perspective here, but it like for a lot of trans people in their real actual lives, our trans identities are a focal point of conflict, and so when we write fantasy, so first of all, there are plenty of things with like trans people in them where that is a focal point of conflict, but it's more interesting for a trans writer, like I'm not a trans writer in that way, but I can imagine the perspective being like it's much more interesting to have a trans character who is dealing with other forms of conflict besides that.

[00:09:16]>> Yeah.

[00:09:16]>> not to say that it's never an issue, but it's not the primary focus. It's not the primary like journey that they're on. So, I mean, if if this call is basically just like a comment that you should have left on goodreads, like I don't know how like what else to tell you that like yes, sometimes trans writers want to have self-insert characters who have the opportunity to triumph over over other forms of adversity.

[00:09:47]>> Yes, it's you're not you're not one note. You are you are multitudes. Everybody is multi multitudes.

[00:09:59]>> I Yeah.

[00:10:00]>> That's kind of my point.

[00:10:03]>> Okay, but >> like your point >> The point you're making seems like I'm sorry, I got I got to cut you off. Your point really seems to be boiling down to trans writers aren't writing the book you want to read.

[00:10:19]Is that >> Not quite because I could Okay, I could I'm going to tell you where I'm coming from exactly.

[00:10:31]>> Yeah, that'd be really helpful.

[00:10:33]>> rights advocate.

[00:10:36]And when the victim I'm having to try to advocate that the court should not throw the book at is someone who has gone and read a likely AI-assisted and/or entirely written trans romance novel that informs them that the epitome of flirting is to walk up to someone you think is a pre-op trans woman, I think that's the word, and grab them by the crotch and they're going to go, "Ooh, you're so forward."

[00:11:10]Yeah, that's kind of what I'm taking issue with.

[00:11:14]>> Okay, so >> that's going to have a good outcome.

[00:11:18]>> Num- number one, if the specific work you're talking about is an AI-generated book, that that is that has nothing to do with like actual human authors, number one.

[00:11:32]Number two, >> Um No, just it straight up doesn't. It It's It's generated by an algorithm.

[00:11:41]Number two, like the vast majority of people who read romance novels aren't looking for that exact scenario to play out in real life.

[00:11:52]It's escapist fantasy.

[00:11:54]Like when cis women read When cis women read like historical romance novels about like pirate corsairs like boarding a Victorian era ship and ravaging the damsels aboard, it's not because they want to be in a scenario where the pirates are boarding their ship and ravaging them for real life.

[00:12:19]It's a different thing. It's an escapist fantasy.

[00:12:24]So part part of the issue here No, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[00:12:32]Like the the question you are posing here of like, well, these books aren't the kind of trans fiction I want to see, that's because they're not being written for you. And in some cases, they're not being written at all because AI is just generating them. So like the problem you have is with like just things existing that you that that aren't for you. Like I'm not a big fan of romances written for like cis women because it's not for me.

[00:13:10]It's not made with people like me in mind. And when we talk about like other escapist fantasy, you mentioned Star Trek.

[00:13:18]You know, you can have a universe where like trans people aren't marginalized and where trans people aren't like being attacked for their identity, but that can still be a commentary on our world today. Like a great example of this would be from the original series where they engage with topics about racism without like you know, yeah, with the flaws of the time obviously, but while like trying to be progressive in their views on African-Americans and integration. And like I don't know. I I there's a lot of interesting things you can do there, but not everything is going to be that and also not everything is going to be like problematic romantic fiction.

[00:14:10]>> Okay.

[00:14:11]And you want to ask somebody, "Hey, I don't think this thing is realistic. You seem to be taking a stance of it is realistic.

[00:14:28]We seem to have a disagreement.

[00:14:31]>> That's That's what you took away from what I said.

[00:14:36]You You You took away You took away from trans people write escapist fantasy sometimes and you were like, "Well, I I like I'm genuine I don't understand the conversation.

[00:14:49]>> There is There is escapist fantasy.

[00:14:52]Yeah.

[00:14:52]>> Yes.

[00:14:54]And that seems to be what you're talking about and what you're upset about.

[00:14:58]No.

[00:15:00]>> Cool. So, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fantasy >> You gave an example about like the way trans people flirt is by going up and grabbing other people's crotches.

[00:15:14]That's not realistic. The author literally tells me that yes, they think that's realistic. It's not.

[00:15:21]>> So, yes.

[00:15:22]>> They're just wrong.

[00:15:25]>> I agree.

[00:15:27]So, I My issue is we shouldn't go around saying it is.

[00:15:32]>> We aren't.

[00:15:34]>> Like if you have a problem with someone else, then okay, but I don't think that this is like So, so it'd be what The reason why we're like confused and a little bit frustrated is because this doesn't seem like it's a common problem.

[00:15:47]Like it doesn't feel like I'm encountering this every day. And like there might be some settings in which it is realistic. Are you at like a trans only nightclub? Maybe grabbing each other's genitals is a normal part of flirting there. I don't know. I am monogamously married, but like it's like if you're taking issue with someone else's fantasy, like I d- I cannot help you and this is not a broader problem. Like if you're you're like literally bringing a complaint about one singular author's one singular story.

[00:16:20]>> Then you're like >> seeming to extrapolate it >> Right.

[00:16:23]>> Okay, well you're extrapolating a very what's clearly a very niche writing area. It's like this this to me sounds like it belongs on fanfiction.net, right? Like some kind of like amateur authors writing their own fantasies.

[00:16:39]>> And I don't understand like why this is a big enough problem for you to bring it to me on this platform.

[00:16:46]>> It just seems like a conversation you should be having with that person.

[00:16:51]>> where I was literally told to shut the [ __ ] up uh about this.

[00:16:58]>> Well, I think it's because people are really confused.

[00:17:02]>> that it can't be wrong.

[00:17:04]>> That's not at all what any of us said.

[00:17:08]We Like if you have an issue with an individual writer, you take that up with that writer.

[00:17:14]Like that's We can't answer for what's in that writer's head.

[00:17:20]We don't know who who the [ __ ] you're talking about.

[00:17:24]>> I I'm not Okay.

[00:17:27]I accept that I'm engaging in some sort of collective blame because I my issue is with the the line as a whole, the fact that you guys are rightfully call out a bunch of BS and CS.

[00:17:44]But find it odd that I find the same sub BS in fiction.

[00:17:51]>> Here's the difference. Here's the difference, B.

[00:17:54]Christians >> Okay.

[00:17:55]>> actually believe the crazy [ __ ] Like that that that but but if somebody is explicitly engaging in fantasy, they're like this is a fictional novel.

[00:18:04]And I think And I think some aspects of this might be realistic. Like maybe they heard one of their trans friends tell a story where that happened and it was sexy. Like I don't know. They could be drawing from their own personal real-world experience. But the thing is that like we are talking about something where it's explicitly acknowledged that it's a story that a person wrote. It's a fantasy that they want to engage with versus Christians and other religious people who have like genuine deep-seated beliefs about how the world actually is on like a on like a fundamental metaphysical level, right? Like the belief that a god exists and that it's realistic that god is taking part in our actions and cares who we have sex with and all that kind of stuff. That is a ridiculously large claim. But the idea that in certain circumstances trans people might be very forward with one another sexually, that is not like unrealistic [clears throat] in the same way. It may be unrealistic in certain context. Like yeah, I'm not going to like walk up to a person on the street. But like if we're in a nightclub and people are drunk, like that there is a context in which that could be understood to be realistic or could potentially happen.

[00:19:17]So, yeah, like I just think that we're talking we're talking about things that are on complete different scales. And I don't know who told you to shut the [ __ ] up. I don't know if that was myself. I I don't remember our previous conversations if I have talked to you before. So, like I'm not going to try to defend anybody who told you to shut the [ __ ] up. Um but like I don't think that it's hypocritical for us to say, "Okay, we can acknowledge that this is a fantasy scenario that a person is engaging with versus like literal god claims, literal metaphysical claims, claims about the soul, like anti-science claims, like I don't know.

[00:19:54]>> Yes, I would agree ultimately what the claim is are very different.

[00:20:02]I agree. You are fully capable of going up and touching another person in any way. That that that's physics. My issue is more the whole Well, the the dumb Reddit meme and everybody crapped that nobody would object to that. [clears throat] I think a lot of people object that such would be a very bad idea and we shouldn't portray it as anything other than a horrible idea.

[00:20:33]Yet, it's being portrayed as the epitome of flirting.

[00:20:37]>> Listen, in I've read fantasy before with that's by with cisgender women for cisgender women, okay? The unrealistic [ __ ] that they do, right? It's We're talking about romance, which is a genre that is fundamentally like >> Messy and problematic.

[00:20:53]>> and problematic. And there's the omegaverse stuff and there's like werewolves and there's like people forcing each other on each other and I Oh, I liked it though. Like it's a whole genre filled with a bunch of messy problematic [ __ ] And I think that the B I feel for you. I feel this frustration.

[00:21:09]I I understand and validate your frustration. This should be like a conversation you're having in the comments of this person's book.

[00:21:17]And not a conversation we should be having here because I I like I I cannot help you any further than what we've already done.

[00:21:24]>> Yeah, sorry.

[00:21:26]>> Okay, with that, thank you very much for your time, B. We appreciate the call and I'll talk to you next time.

[00:21:31]>> All right.

[00:21:32]>> Bye.

[00:21:33]Jesus Christ.

[00:21:37]>> I >> [laughter] >> I I'm a bit speechless.

[00:21:41]>> I know. Like, what do I even say about that? Um Yeah. I >> I mean, there there is a lot of problematic stuff in like the romance subgenre. Absolutely. I I tried I tried to touch on that, but like it's also still going to be problematic when trans people write it or if it's about or involving trans people.

[00:22:03]>> Yeah.

[00:22:04]>> Um That's unfortunately not a problem we're going to fix by like shaking our fingers at the genre cuz people have been doing that for literally hundreds of years.

[00:22:16]>> Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's it's inherently about like borderline unrealistic things that are very exciting and that might border on like kinks or might border on like non-consent or whatever. Like, there is there's so much in the genre that you could you could just basically say the entire genre is bad on this type of logic, which, you know, and then it's all puritanical slut-shaming stuff.

[00:22:42]Like, I don't know. And like, "Oh, you shouldn't portray it as a good thing to to go up and grab somebody." Like, yes, in most situations that would be sexual assault, but in this particular fantasy everybody was into it. So, shut the [ __ ] up about it.

[00:22:56][laughter] It's like, I understand now why someone told me to shut the [ __ ] up.

[00:23:00]I finally reached that. Um okay, great.

[00:23:02]Cool.

[00:23:03]>> That was a call.

[00:23:06]Remember to like, leave a comment longer than eight words, really helps with the algorithm, and subscribe, and also check out the live show every Thursday. Links all down below. And let's keep on going.

[00:23:20]>> The boat Jack is coming to town. [music] All the viewers gather round. Twitch and YouTube and Twitch and streams. All that content is burst the seams. Politics being 24. Your sense of fashion you'll adore. So grab your stuff and [music] hop aboard. We're going straight to Jack's Discord.

[00:23:37]With a boat, Jack.

[00:23:40]With a boat, Jack.