Elections Are Rigged! Only Those In Government Can Tell How ~ Diana Ngao & Mark Ouko

追加: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]We'll talk about Madaraka Day celebrations, and of course the ending femicide match that happened yesterday, to the state of the nation from a youth perspective.

[00:00:09]With us is youth coordinator, National Students Council of Kenya, Mr. Mark Okoth. Mark, good morning and welcome to Ready Generation.

[00:00:17]>> Yes, good morning to all our viewers.

[00:00:19]Good morning, Boovie, and CT, and sister here.

[00:00:22]>> Yeah.

[00:00:22]>> Yes.

[00:00:23]>> Karibu sana.

[00:00:24]And our sister is none other than Diana Ngau. She is a youth league member at the People's Liberation Party. Diana, good morning and welcome back as well.

[00:00:33]>> Asante sana. Good morning.

[00:00:35]>> Did you Did you get to watch the the the Madaraka Day celebrations yesterday?

[00:00:40]>> I didn't get to watch, but I did a recap. Yeah, I was busy in town with the end femicide issue.

[00:00:46]>> So, you will tell us what happened in that end femicide match, but meanwhile CD has got a proverb. Kama kawaida, you will let us know what you think about it. It's from the country of Seychelles, also known as Ushelisheli in Kiswahili.

[00:00:59]>> No, no, no, no.

[00:01:01]>> Ulipenda nini Kiswahili?

[00:01:03]>> [laughter] >> Thank you.

[00:01:13]Opportunity does not wake up those who are asleep.

[00:01:18]>> Ladies first.

[00:01:19]>> Mhm.

[00:01:21]I think it would be similar to saying that um opportunity moves on to the next available person. So, if you're asleep, it will take you past it.

[00:01:31]Yeah.

[00:01:34]>> Yes, I For me, in context, I think opportunities are available for those who go after them, and it won't come to your doorstep for the literal, you know, meaning around it. So, sometimes you need to stop sleeping, awaken from the dream, and, you know, come to work. Yes.

[00:01:56]>> Okay.

[00:01:56]>> Mhm.

[00:01:57]>> Opportunity fortunes the brave.

[00:02:00]>> Aha.

[00:02:01]>> Mhm.

[00:02:02]>> And opportunities >> Mhm.

[00:02:04]>> benefits the bold >> Mhm.

[00:02:06]>> Aha.

[00:02:06]>> and those who are prepared.

[00:02:07]>> Right.

[00:02:09]>> End femicide.

[00:02:10]>> Yes.

[00:02:11]>> Tell us about it.

[00:02:13]>> Well, I'm I'm saying because it's such a it's such a it's such a heavy thing to think about that many women don't feel safe in their own country.

[00:02:26]Yeah. Like even walking even in daylight now is you're always looking at the back like who's walking behind me. Because there's just so many incidents of women being killed. Most of them unfortunately have been by their intimate partners.

[00:02:40]Some of them it could be just they're enjoying their walk home and they're two men decide no, this is going to be someone that I want to abuse. So, it's just so unfortunate that we have to get here that we have to go out to the streets to actually demand for this to be called a national crisis. Just last year we lost 220 women um to femicide cases and those are just the documented ones. There are so many that go undoc- undocumented. So, I mean, it's it's a it's a somber moment just to think that women and children are not safe in this country.

[00:03:14]>> 200 women you say?

[00:03:16]>> 220 just in last year.

[00:03:19]Between January of this year to now um yesterday I think Jerry Mwigwi said that it was 67 cases of femicide.

[00:03:26]>> Mhm.

[00:03:27]>> Yeah.

[00:03:28]>> Wait.

[00:03:28]>> From January to >> Yeah, to May.

[00:03:32]>> Oh, you're talking about 2026 the last six months.

[00:03:35]>> We've moved 2025 there were 220.

[00:03:39]>> Yeah.

[00:03:39]>> And then now 2026 in the last six months we've lost 67.

[00:03:43]>> Yeah.

[00:03:46]>> Wait.

[00:03:46]>> Yeah. And it's it's it's that's why we're saying it's it's it's no longer a woman's issue. It's a society issue.

[00:03:53]Yeah, this is a mirror of society and the kind of society that we have in Kenya. And it's not even it's not just something something that women should go out to the streets and and demand.

[00:04:03]We are also asking our brothers, like stand with us because you're not our enemies. We are collaborators in this country. So, we must be able to call out those those other men who decide that women do not deserve to live.

[00:04:17]>> Yeah. What are some of the issues that are leading to these kind of deaths from, you know, what you know?

[00:04:23]>> Um of course there's gender-based violence, there's sexual violence.

[00:04:28]Um and it's just the general thinking of what the place of a woman is in the society that makes there's a power dynamic there that makes a man feel that, you know what, at any point if this woman aggravates me. There's a story of a lady who was unfortunately murdered in Kilimani and it was from an ex-lover who all of a sudden felt aggrieved that, you know what, he she doesn't deserve to live anymore.

[00:04:55]>> Or is the if I can't have you no one can have you kind of situation?

[00:04:59]>> And we've had so many other cases.

[00:05:01]That's that's just the most recent one.

[00:05:02]They have so many other cases, not just this year, last year, so many So, along the way until we got to this point that it's a national crisis, they've been there. It is just that um um the the act of government or rather the ministry and even the police take it like, um yes, we know this is a problem, but there's no goodwill to fully implement the recommendations.

[00:05:25]>> Yeah.

[00:05:26]>> Yeah.

[00:05:26]>> Okay.

[00:05:27]Um Mark, your opinion on infanticide.

[00:05:32]>> Yes. For me, I think it is more of like a value system chain and I'll dwell more particularly around the issue she has talked about around the intimacy issue.

[00:05:43]>> Mhm.

[00:05:44]>> And this has been dynamically changing over period of time. Now, uh I had those other time where I think City was giving an analogy of how the courting process during the days used to look like, you know, how it will take a bit of time and all that. But, we live in in a world today, especially for my generation, where it is so much commercially based, where people feel like because I spend much more money money on you and all that. If for example, on the ex-lover situation, you'll find that it is not even really particular about intimacy, but they do feel because of perhaps the level of investment they have done in terms of money and all that, then they feel like, you know, this has gone to waste. And the people who feel the justification that because they've spent a lot of money on you and all that, then uh if it is not being reciprocated, uh you know, perhaps the only way they think, you know, and it's very unfortunate that it is happening um you know, in our in in in our country.

[00:06:44]>> Let me let me speak about something that might end up putting me in trouble, but I'll say it anyway. Do you think that perhaps there's some truth to it that we men, not we, but men invest a lot.

[00:06:56]And not just men, also women invest, but there are partners who invest in their partners, but that investment isn't either reciprocated >> reciprocated.

[00:07:08]>> Yeah, or they they do not get let me call it value for either their money or their time.

[00:07:14]>> But, you see, if you look at the hierarchy of things, there's nothing that comes after death.

[00:07:21]Once you kill somebody, >> It's a wrap.

[00:07:23]>> Yeah, it's a wrap. Like I mean, you there are some things you just call it bygones and leave it, you know, this didn't work. And you can always try to the next person, you know.

[00:07:32]Uh and you know, if you look at life, and I think Elder City will tell us here that there are times things could work. There are days it will not be meant to work.

[00:07:42]>> Even right now, it >> might or might not work. But okay, let me let me perhaps phrase it differently.

[00:07:48]>> Yes.

[00:07:50]>> Is it possible that there are some partners who take advantage of their partner, whether men or women, whereby I know for a fact that Diana here I don't love her, but because she is so invested in taking me to school and you know, helping me find a job and even helping me find opportunities.

[00:08:10]I I I endear myself to her and I just feel like I don't even love her, but the moment I get what I want, me I leave this relationship and I tell her, "Bana, you know me, I don't like you. I don't love you. I don't want you." Do you feel like there are some folks who actually do that?

[00:08:25]>> You see, that is now a different context, you know. Whatever happens between relationships as to what whatever because when you get into a relationships, people have, you know, different kinds of, you know, what a 20-year-old and a 25-year-old and a 30-year-old lady and men want is totally different. But the bottom line is you don't need to kill somebody, you know, that's >> Yeah, no, that one I agree. I agree. I'm not I'm not justifying this. I'm just asking, do you feel like because by the time someone is feeling, "Hey, bana, Mark, I paid your school fees. I I I I even built your parents a a home or a house. I I even bought them a car and so many other things that I did and then now you're telling me you don't want me." Surely.

[00:09:06]>> And and that's why I'm saying that this issue is really a society issue. It can't be looked at a from a gender lens because the moment we start saying that this man invested so much in the woman, then there are other men listening to you and saying, "Anyway, why why did I invest so much in this woman?" And start to become aggravated. I think the conversation we should be having around femicide and this issue is in regards to the value of a woman and the cost of life. You can't cost life in like there's no cost to life. It's priceless.

[00:09:38]>> True.

[00:09:38]>> And the fact that these issues of what what to me are now even in businesses >> Mhm. Mhm.

[00:09:44]>> business partners who would to me are now you know, but that doesn't give me the right to take life.

[00:09:48]>> Mhm.

[00:09:49]>> That doesn't give me the right to take life. So, I feel like um also men need to have this conversation with their fellow men that um you must respect a woman because whether she's a woman or a man at the end of the day she's a human and she she she was born here without you without you being part of it. So, you can't have be the reason why she's the one who's not living today.

[00:10:10]>> Mhm.

[00:10:10]>> And that also goes to children because by the way this femicide issue is going hand in hand with the number of children who also go missing, who gets raped, who get abducted. This is a serious serious issue that can't be um uh what do you call it politicized and must be looked at. We need to have a conversation as a society and be like what are we doing with majority of our population because women are 52% and children also are part of the 70% of youth.

[00:10:35]>> Mhm.

[00:10:36]>> So, what are we doing with these people who are almost the most vulnerable?

[00:10:40]It shows it's actually a reflection of how we see the most vulnerable people in the society.

[00:10:45]>> Consider consider this perspective, huh?

[00:10:48]How do you bring up our children?

[00:10:52]>> Of course with a gender lens. The the the girl usually usually it may not be the case anymore, but I mean in most households, but usually the girl was the one to pick up um around the house follow what her mom is doing and then the the boy would really just sit at home and maybe be sent once or twice for errands.

[00:11:12]But because we have more modern households where women are also working women, I think that dynamic has also began to shift.

[00:11:20]>> You see, if we had a situation where there were more women killing men and that was the problem perhaps we'd pay more attention to this particular matter.

[00:11:31]>> And that's why I'm saying the issue cannot be that women are being killed.

[00:11:36]It's women are people. They're humans also. It's a society in crisis where the value of human life has been reduced to power dynamics. It is also what we are seeing play out with police brutality.

[00:11:50]It's another power dynamic where police who has been mandated to protect and serve decides to take a life of someone.

[00:11:58]>> Again, I go back to how exactly do we socialize?

[00:12:04]>> Mhm.

[00:12:04]>> The value aspect is absolutely spot on.

[00:12:08]>> Mhm.

[00:12:09]>> You see, there is this assumption that we human beings are logical creatures.

[00:12:14]We actually not. We emotional creatures.

[00:12:16]>> Yeah.

[00:12:18]>> Where our logic comes in is when we want to justify what our emotions have led us to do.

[00:12:24]What Paul >> Yes, exactly. What he said, "Oh, you know, I've spent money. I've done this."

[00:12:28]That's now the logic coming in. Okay?

[00:12:33]>> I still remember in the days when I was much younger, I was actually a child.

[00:12:38]I remember the first time I ever encountered what we're discussing here.

[00:12:42]Nobody died.

[00:12:44]But I had an uncle who had actually paid school fees for a young girl he was interested in. In those days, somebody could actually pay fees for this girl as she grew up, 15, 16, finish school, even take her to college in the hope that he would marry her.

[00:12:57]This uncle of mine did all this.

[00:13:00]Then a friend of his ended up marrying.

[00:13:02]Now, how we understood the story was because he came to live with us because he had attempted suicide.

[00:13:07]Mhm. That's how disappointed he was.

[00:13:09]See?

[00:13:10]Now, the issue of men seeking to spend money clearly you were forced. See, it's you who decides you want to spend the money. Okay?

[00:13:22]So, why is it that when you have decided to spend the money is now suddenly somebody else's fault that you're spending money on them. And it is you who made the decision to spend the money.

[00:13:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:32]>> Um well, they they are again, if we look at the arguments online on this particular issue, they they argue this and they say if Diana, I start paying school fees for you, I am definitely not paying that school fees because I'm a very good friend to you. I'm paying because I am interested in in you in one way or another. So, that means perhaps then I marry you. I want you to marry me surely. I'm playing with you to become my wife and so on and so forth, okay?

[00:13:57]>> consent? Did I say that yes, pay for me school fees and then I'll become your wife?

[00:14:01]>> The moment I pay the moment I come to you and I ask you so, how much is your school fees per semester? 130K.

[00:14:08]I remove 130K.

[00:14:10]That already is an assumption that I'm interested in you, right? Assumption.

[00:14:14]>> It is up to you to ask me like when you pay me for money.

[00:14:20]>> Then perhaps I'll tell you but see, of course I want you. I want to marry you.

[00:14:23]>> Maybe they also don't even give their their intentions then.

[00:14:26]>> So, by the time I pay term one, term two, year two, year three >> Imagine you're shifting you're shifting the the the blame to the woman. And that is part of the reason why we are here with the end femicide. Because for time memorial, the the blame has been shifted to the woman.

[00:14:43]It is not the victim's fault.

[00:14:45]>> In fact, you we take it even further.

[00:14:48]Whenever you have a discussion about rape, suddenly it's the woman's fault and you're thinking, hey, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah, she didn't dress well.

[00:14:55]>> to be raped?

[00:14:56]Did did did she what part did she play? Again, somebody has done something horrific and now they're looking for ways to justify it and so you blame the victim.

[00:15:09]>> And that's why I'm saying the conversation needs to be extended to men.

[00:15:12]Because we cannot solve this without the men on the table. Yeah. You have to have conversations with your fellow men to understand because there are very good men who are great collaborators of this women movement, right? And who understand that you know what?

[00:15:27]Just because she's a woman doesn't make her less of a human. Doesn't make her that just because I may be stronger doesn't make her less powerful in her own right. So it's it's important that these men who understand this to talk to the fellow men because these conversations are happening online. And by the way, majority even for me, if you see majority of the people following me online, majority of them are men.

[00:15:48]Right? But if we have more men online coming up to speak. Yesterday we had men in the on the in the match and I was just I was like we needed more men.

[00:15:58]First of all, I was grateful for them joining the match. Second of all, I was like we need more men. We need more men to see that this is an issue.

[00:16:06]Because what CITI said that if it was more men being killed, it would have actually been an issue.

[00:16:12]But now that it is women, so men, let's talk about this and let's make sure that more men are aware that women need to be respected. Children need to be protected.

[00:16:22]>> But where does all this start? Remember what I talked about. How do you bring up our children?

[00:16:27]How exactly do we bring up our children?

[00:16:30]And what is the role of men in bringing up children?

[00:16:35]How do they influence that process?

[00:16:37]Because these people who go around killing women are Kenyans.

[00:16:42]These people who go around killing women are people's children, people's brothers. They they they they're just human beings like others. So what is it about them that makes them have this tendency?

[00:16:55]>> I I think it will also move back reverts to what Mbubi was talking about because I don't think a rational human being would just take a knife and you know, pierce or throw somebody. It's something that you know, it's a form of anger that grows over time, you know, and you know, they feel at some point. But to go back to what the the analogy that Mbuvi was giving about you know there's a man who feels he's frustrated like your uncle. He has paid fees and all that. I think one thing that perhaps a young man or a you know older men should always have is to see things in foresight because the social attraction to towards somebody is always evolving. And what do I mean?

[00:17:38]What a 20-year-old say girl will [clears throat] find attractive or is looking for say from a man or what is their most immediate need say for example if somebody feels like I'm 20 years and right now I just need somebody who can help me to finish this school cycle. When they get to 25 they have something different. I I think that would also be the same mess that perhaps your uncle was caught up. The girl is done with school and now he's thinking about something different. Perhaps the maturity levels is and there's all that. But the bottom line I think as we cycle on to you know relationship dynamics and all that I think there is nothing that justifies killing any person.

[00:18:14]>> There isn't but a sense of entitlement will take you very close to that point where you feel you can actually kill somebody.

[00:18:23]You see the moment you quantify relationships and you commercialize them you open the door that will lead to things you did not expect because it is not an understanding of mutual existence. No no no no it's trade. Okay?

[00:18:47]And the problem is and and and Paul actually hit the nail on the head. You assume.

[00:18:52]>> But just to add on something I think as to give us a a solution remedy apart from a what is also being done in terms of you know protest and all that I think is that we should revert back to you know our initial accountability systems. Like if you found a how you know a marriage is used to coexist in the especially when you know old times like in a city or getting married.

[00:19:15]>> you have referred to me five times.

[00:19:16]>> [laughter] >> It's because there was a time you were giving an analogy and I really loved that and the latter.

[00:19:21]>> I I love the analogy you was giving about [laughter] marriage.

[00:19:25]>> Our families were pretty much if for example me and Diana are involved that courtship process before me and Diana are involved in getting married so many things are involved you know families and all those so by the time if by the time even somebody is thinking about say killing you the accountability systems that are around it you know sometimes if you have an issue and they say hey what to eat the one say and they come and talk and all that but in the modern society two people who don't know barely know each other well you know they're staying in Nairobi nobody you know is is within that account who can take accountability of what is going on between them and all that you know say even if I kill her who will ever know the parents don't know me the brothers don't know me you know so >> Yeah.

[00:20:09]>> What sorry yes.

[00:20:10]>> And the accountability system apart from the family I think needs to go up you on because sometimes people can even they can kill you because you even if they know your mother or they spoke to them your mother that afternoon because I mean that point of rage which you talked about is illogical the logical brain has shut off.

[00:20:27]But the other accountability system that we are asking for is a public registry of sexual offenders. We need to name and shame these people and I don't know what entered the president to decide to pardon sexual offenders but we need a public registry that shows that this person this person this person that even when employers are employing that it is known that this person is a sexual offender.

[00:20:52]Because a lot of them hide it could be someone's uncle someone's father someone's brother they hide with us in between society.

[00:20:59]>> They do I agree. But what I what I will say because we need to to move on to the other issues we need to discuss what but what I will say about this particular thing is this.

[00:21:08]If today Mark, you send me 10,000 shillings. And I didn't even ask for it.

[00:21:13]The first thing I'll do is I'll call you and ask you, "Hey Mark, you sent 10K?

[00:21:17]What's up?"

[00:21:27]But if you send me another 10,000 another day.

[00:21:31]I'll call you and be like, "Hey Mark, I'll be like, "No Mark, we we we can't live like this.

[00:21:39]Please kindly."

[00:21:40]>> By the way, Paul, do you know >> I will be like, >> You don't belong to this guy's generation.

[00:21:45]>> I know. I know.

[00:21:47]>> Yes, I'm glad you are because the vast majority of women who have been killed are young.

[00:21:52]>> Yes, they they are.

[00:21:54]>> Yeah, 19, 20 years.

[00:21:55]>> Young, really really really young.

[00:21:59]Do we actually understand the dynamics of how those people relate to each other?

[00:22:05]Do we? Well, you need bracket yako. Now it's my turn to refer to you.

[00:22:09]>> [laughter] >> In terms of how young people relate to each other in terms of Do you mean in the romantic context or >> No, no, no.

[00:22:17]>> Yes.

[00:22:17]>> In the context of picking tea. What else would I be talking about?

[00:22:21]>> [laughter] >> Yes, in the romantic aspect.

[00:22:26]>> I I I feel like inadvertently inadvertently there is a bit of imbalance in terms of expectation because you see for the 20-year-old for the comrade there, he's expecting a normal kind of relationship, you know, they are still dependent on their parents and all that.

[00:22:46]But what is also growing up so much is that you know, women are looking upwards and you know, for for the girls whom and ladies whom we study with we have been in studying with at say the university that most of most of them want, you know, men with money, you know. So, >> You think it's something to do with your age?

[00:23:06]>> I just I just want to say that we dilute the conversation by speaking in regards to only intimate partners. That we realize that there's a woman who walked down the road who was walking down the road somewhere in Juja and got raped and killed.

[00:23:17]>> Mhm.

[00:23:18]>> You know.

[00:23:19]I If we If we reduce Yeah, exactly. If we reduce this conversation to only speak about um intimate partners and the dynamic between intimate partners, no matter the age group, it really dilutes the issue is that women are being killed almost every other day.

[00:23:34]Women are being um uh raped and sexually abused every other day. There's also physical abuse that's happening in households in many other places. So, we can't reduce the conversations to only speak about one dynamic. All what we can all agree here is that number one, you cannot kill someone.

[00:23:53]>> Yes, you can't. But, you see, I am concerned about the triggers that bring these about.

[00:24:00]Again, I'm going back to how do we bring up our men?

[00:24:04]>> Ah.

[00:24:06]>> All right. Uh Yeah, teach >> And what are the influences once they've grown up like Mark here, what are the things that influence the way they go about their behavior?

[00:24:17]>> Yeah, I I agree because even uh in my church, the church I'm a member to, um even when we're doing a lot of this uh parenting and these different uh classes and communities, the men are absent.

[00:24:30]The men are absent and and the question is that if the men are absent here, then what what about even in the homes?

[00:24:37]>> about church, go to schools when you have functions at schools. I just look at the population of men, it it will tell you volumes.

[00:24:44]>> Mhm.

[00:24:44]>> Yeah.

[00:24:45]>> Yeah, teach and say that whenever you you you talk about femicide, talk about pedicide also.

[00:24:51]Uh Okay. And then upbringing and value systems have degraded. These are part of the part of the symptoms in my opinion.

[00:25:02]>> I agree with you. All right, so we'll we'll set a date to talk about all these femicide issues because indeed we can't have a conversation in what? 20 minutes?

[00:25:11]>> Yeah, I agree. But it's a conversation that we have to keep having.

[00:25:15]>> Yes, for sure, for sure. When you talk about Madaraka Day celebrations, a couple of things happened yesterday. The president did say that part of the reason why he agreed to the Ebola quarantine sign center or facility in Laikipia is because America has been a friend to Kenya for a very long time. They've supported our health care system for a very long time. I understand currently 30% of our health care is 30% is funded by, you know, foreign entities, perhaps the US, the UK, and others. But what are your thoughts on this Ebola facility?

[00:25:47]Yes, ladies first. [laughter] >> I don't know why CITI is laughing so much, but I can see.

[00:25:56]I watched the the US, I'm forgetting, Marco Rubio.

[00:26:02]>> Yeah, he's the the state secretary of state.

[00:26:04]>> Yes, and how passionate he was, like, we cannot allow Ebola into the United States. We must protect our people.

[00:26:12]And for a moment I thought, I'm like, wow, I'd be proud to be a a citizen of that country and actually have trust that my government is taking care of me.

[00:26:21]Like you on the flip side hapa, we are like, you know what? We've been friends with the United States and I mean, what is a little Ebola? We can contain it uko Laikipia.

[00:26:32]I mean, I think that it also it is a testament of the kind of relationship our our leaders or the people in government have with the with the with the citizens. Just because we are friends with a foreign nation does not mean that we give up our sovereignty. Yeah.

[00:26:50]>> So according to you, they don't have boundaries.

[00:26:52]>> I I I I don't even know how that even became a topic that you know what? In our agreement for health that we will I'm shocked that this is possible this is possible. And you know the worst part about it, if it was Kibeste probably we could make very many agreements. I mean we would make very many discussions and debates about it.

[00:27:11]But the fact that there's money involved that Kenya will be given a bit of some money to be able to put up this quarantine center.

[00:27:18]>> 1.7 billion.

[00:27:19]>> Exactly. So it just shows that you're putting again the cost of of of um the cost of life based on a number that's there. Because Kenya I mean, if I look at it, Kenya right now is grappling with a lot of economic issues.

[00:27:34]>> True.

[00:27:34]>> Right? So I mean the the government of the day is trying to look where to get money to get funding, whether it's own source revenue, whether it's development funding, whether it's commercial loans. They're looking everywhere to ensure that they can continue doing what they are what they are doing.

[00:27:50]>> Okay.

[00:27:50]>> So now when we see that you're bringing an Ebola facility to Laikipia when we know Ebola is a fatal disease.

[00:27:58]>> Mhm.

[00:27:59]>> Where we know that we can't even our current even health system, if one Kenyan was to be able to get Ebola, will not be able to contain the spread of that virus.

[00:28:07]>> No, actually we will.

[00:28:09]>> To aje?

[00:28:11]>> You see you are assuming First of all, let's start with the sovereignty issue, Diana.

[00:28:17]>> Mhm.

[00:28:17]>> How exactly do we compromise our sovereignty?

[00:28:20]>> We have never heard. Maybe you can tell me, um CT. I have never heard of a foreign country setting up a quarantine facility in another country that is not where the disease broke out.

[00:28:35]>> Okay.

[00:28:36]>> If anything, why can't they set up the quarantine facility in Congo?

[00:28:41]>> Actually, ideally they should set it up in Congo.

[00:28:43]>> Yeah.

[00:28:44]>> Mhm. Where the epicenter is.

[00:28:45]>> Mhm.

[00:28:47]>> Do you understand and know why it is the US spent so much money on treating researching on HIV and AIDS?

[00:28:57]>> Mhm.

[00:28:59]>> When you conduct research and you provide treatment and you provide ARVs, what you're doing is you're protecting your own citizens.

[00:29:08]>> Mhm.

[00:29:09]>> That is the larger picture.

[00:29:11]Cuz HIV you is not on a wood is forehead is any Yes, the incubation period for the longest time was known to be 10 to 15 years.

[00:29:25]When a government like this particular one seeks to do what they're doing and they communicate it the way they are doing it, they shoot themselves in the foot.

[00:29:35]>> Mhm.

[00:29:37]>> This is not a stand-alone thing that the government is doing. No.

[00:29:43]>> It is part of an agreement that was first signed in 2015.

[00:29:46]>> Yes.

[00:29:47]>> Ratified by Parliament in 2016.

[00:29:50]>> Mhm.

[00:29:51]>> An extension was given to 2029.

[00:29:55]Mudavadi spoke on it.

[00:29:58]It is an agreement that dealt with diseases like malaria, dealt with HIV, dealt with child mortality, blood transfusion. It is a wholesome thing that had to do with the support that the American government would give to the Ministry of Health.

[00:30:14]>> So, City Lawyer if someone we have that quarantine facility in Laikipia, if a Kenyan in Laikipia contacts Ebola will they be able to access that quarantine facility?

[00:30:26]>> That is what is being asked.

[00:30:29]A quarantine is not for somebody who has been infected. It's somebody who's been exposed. When you're infected, you are isolated.

[00:30:38]>> The information about this facility is so vague that the questions you ask are valid.

[00:30:45]>> Mhm.

[00:30:46]>> This thing could have been explained better. It could have been spoken of by experts who know so that it could be understood. So, when we're debating it, >> We can debate from a point of >> we know what it is that we are debating, but the government has not done that. So, here we are talking about it.

[00:31:05]The details of whatever they agreed on, we do not know.

[00:31:09]>> Mhm.

[00:31:09]>> How it is or who it is who's going to have access to the facility, we do not know.

[00:31:14]That it's in a military compound, again, now, immediately, there's restriction because military installations are not places that citizens can just walk into. So, it's not that I'm in disagreement with you.

[00:31:26]>> Mhm.

[00:31:27]>> I know because I have worked for the Kenya Medical Research Institute, so I have knowledge about how some of these things work.

[00:31:35]>> Work. Okay.

[00:31:36]>> And I have an idea of some of the benefits that accrue from it from the work I did when I worked in HIV and AIDS care and treatment and research.

[00:31:44]>> Mhm.

[00:31:45]>> And I saw how capacity building worked and what it is that we were now able to do simply because of this same funding that was received.

[00:31:55]>> Mhm.

[00:31:55]>> Unfortunately, [clears throat] uh hemorrhagic disease like Ebola is scary.

[00:31:59]>> Yes.

[00:32:00]>> Mhm.

[00:32:01]Very, very scary.

[00:32:03]>> Yeah.

[00:32:03]>> Mark Ogot.

[00:32:04]>> And >> Oh, sorry. You wanted to conclude?

[00:32:06]>> Yes, I just wanted to conclude by saying and even at the at at When you're saying that it's very, very scary.

[00:32:11]>> It is absolutely scary.

[00:32:12]>> even not knowing the the context of or the what is inside the agreement. Over the years, this health agreement we've had with the United States, it is important to also look at the times.

[00:32:26]The country is dealing The government is dealing with a lot of mistrust of its citizens.

[00:32:31]>> Mhm.

[00:32:31]>> It is not the time to further uh uh drive that mistrust by some of the actions.

[00:32:37]>> Okay.

[00:32:38]>> It's It is a matter of putting the citizens first, and that's what we fail to keep seeing. Even the lack of public communications on the issue that further divides the country, further divides the citizens, further erodes the trust. How will you be able to govern?

[00:32:54]>> You know, you know one of the things which is tragic is this, um when a government does not control a narrative that it can and does not present the citizenry the information they need, then we have the situation that we have here.

[00:33:14]>> Yeah.

[00:33:14]>> It happened with the issue of building a nuclear plant in Kilifi.

[00:33:18]>> Interesting.

[00:33:20]>> The government didn't come out and explain to us what it is that they wanted to do. Now it is in CI A.

[00:33:26]Again, what you raised, Diana, I'm in agreement with in this sense. I was I was asking Paul this morning.

[00:33:34]I honestly honestly do not understand why you have all these communication people in government, and yet the thing that they're supposed to do, they don't do.

[00:33:47]Surely such a thing Should this thing not have been spoken of a long time ago?

[00:33:52]>> The issue with the communications of the government is that it's highly politicized. They have failed to transition from campaign sort of communications and focus on governance sort of communication. That is the tragedy, and that's what's That's what's driving the corrosion of public trust with the government. Because you see, the thing is there are very key issues, never alone even this about Ebola, very key issues that when you take you decide to take a few 30 minutes of your time to further research, you start to actually get Oh, okay, this is not so bad for us.

[00:34:24]But because it's been politicized, it's now been seen in the light of two time, one time, no time, half time, all these terms.

[00:34:31]>> [laughter] >> Is where now that's where now everyone has seems to have an opinion, but I agree that the the breakdown of communications, especially from the government side, um it's a letdown. And I don't know whether >> You know, in the USA when you are put in a trial and you do not want to answer the question for self in incrimination, you decide to pledge the fifth.

[00:34:57]>> Okay. So, are you pleading the fifth here?

[00:35:02]>> [laughter] >> I wanted to pledge the fifth around this Ebola issue because of uh I just feel around the timing of a of a view because of the confidential knowledge I have perhaps around it, but just to, you know, um I lay out your fears. I think you raise a very valid point that it that on our side as government, there was much need to give much more communication around it.

[00:35:31]Gives, you know, give Kenyans the clarity of how, you know, those who are, you know, those who are being brought from the USA, are they those who are actually infected or you >> Is it USA or DRC? Are they being brought from the USA or DRC?

[00:35:45]>> Yeah, US citizens from DRC.

[00:35:47]>> Yes, US citizens from DRC.

[00:35:49]>> Okay.

[00:35:49]>> Yes, yes, but from Kenya, the process around that. Then also a inversely also show if it is what is it that you are getting in reciprocation for in aiding out, you know, USA in terms of hosting that quarantine facility saying in Laikipia.

[00:36:07]>> Mark, Mark, pause for a second.

[00:36:10]Are you saying that this facility is only for US citizens?

[00:36:13]>> No, no, no, no, no.

[00:36:17]>> And that's why I started by saying that Because if if it's a topic quarantine center and it's catering for the region, you that's a completely different story.

[00:36:28]>> Yes.

[00:36:29]>> But we are setting up a quarantine specifically for the US citizen. You know, you know, >> Didn't they say it's a 50 bed facility?

[00:36:38]>> I don't >> 50 bed to cater for the region.

[00:36:41]>> I do not know.

[00:36:43]Let me explain again. Please understand the difference between isolation and quarantine.

[00:36:47]>> I agree, but 50 bed?

[00:36:50]>> You see, this is not a difficult discussion to have.

[00:36:55]If you look at the facts, okay?

[00:36:58]It is really not a difficult discussion to have. But in the absence of the fact, what exactly are we discussing?

[00:37:03]>> You know what? I guess we'll we'll do this because CS Adan Duale is appearing before Parliament today.

[00:37:09]>> Yes.

[00:37:09]>> We'll wait for a high court there's a court ruling.

[00:37:11]>> there's that court ruling also expected today.

[00:37:14]Um I guess we'll wait for that. Perhaps now speak from a point of knowledge, but as it is, just like the government-to-government oil deal, we have absolutely no idea what this thing is about.

[00:37:24]>> My friend, you know, this is this this is now the downside of how [laughter] successive governments function.

[00:37:31]>> Yep.

[00:37:32]>> There was the MES saga.

[00:37:34]>> Mhm.

[00:37:35]>> Where county governments the thinking behind it, sound.

[00:37:40]We all agreed that we're going to get equipment so that that can be used by what? County governments because this devolved function of health equal per county.

[00:37:49]>> Mhm.

[00:37:50]>> How can that agreement matter that the the the the AG doesn't know anything about it? Matter that the minister of health doesn't know anything about it.

[00:37:59]Matter that PS is so you're thinking.

[00:38:01]So, how did we even get to the point the mistrust is built over time >> Mhm.

[00:38:10]>> because of the way in which government has a tendency of doing things in this country.

[00:38:15]>> Right.

[00:38:16]Yeah, when you forget to put the people first.

[00:38:18]>> The the the unfortunately, they always tell us it's they're doing it on behalf of the people.

[00:38:24]>> Mhm.

[00:38:25]>> Well, that's not the nature. And maybe Mark can tell us. Are they doing it on behalf of the people? Because >> Are Are you?

[00:38:31]>> US government.

[00:38:33]>> [laughter] >> There's There's a question >> But I don't think it's very right to say that they don't have a knowledge they don't have knowledge around it. Perhaps they're just not >> It's not them. It's us who don't have >> don't have knowledge.

[00:38:44]>> Yes, it's not them. Them they have knowledge.

[00:38:46]>> For sure they do.

[00:38:47]>> See, they have already discussed it. So, they have knowledge.

[00:38:54]>> Because of the confidential nature of the of the of the information.

[00:38:58]>> But there's something that took place last week.

[00:39:01]Actually, it was the weekend before this one.

[00:39:04]Where some politicians, you know, said that they will ensure, no matter what happens in 2027, that is next year. This election will be rigged. Now >> [laughter] >> They will ensure rigging?

[00:39:16]>> Yes. You did say that. They did.

[00:39:19]They They made it very clear.

[00:39:21]You heard it, right?

[00:39:23]>> It was in the papers.

[00:39:24]>> Deputy Governor Savula, he said that no matter what happens, they own government, they're the ones who fund IBC, we and they will I mean Yes, sir.

[00:39:34]>> Allow me to comment on this now.

[00:39:36]>> I will allow you.

[00:39:37]>> At least that one we have a >> You have receipts?

[00:39:41]>> [laughter] >> Anyway, what I wanted to say about that There's something in law they often call the statements of puff. They They may not be actually true, but they differ from reality.

[00:39:51]>> Okay.

[00:39:51]>> So, there is this there is this said I don't know if it's delusional or there is this concept that has always been sold out that there is only one person who has a monopoly of this thing called deep state. It doesn't exist because they are somebody who has been part of government I've I've done a bit of an analysis of this. You'll get that all these political players will always have their people everywhere.

[00:40:15]Gachagua will have his people in NIS, in police, in IBC. All these people will have across the board. So, there's no one who has a single monopoly of this thing called deep state that they can use deep state to their advantage to steal elections.

[00:40:28]>> Okay.

[00:40:29]>> I'll give you a proper example of what happened in in 2022 elections, okay? In 2022 elections, when the the the tally was being done both on Raila's side, Azimio's side, and on our side on Kenya Kwanza, >> Right.

[00:40:44]>> the election was meant to go on a runoff of 37,000 votes.

[00:40:50]The the runoff was supposed to be but you know, there's these people who normally called enthusiastic voters, eh?

[00:40:56]The enthusiastic voters normally finish voting around 2:00 p.m., 3:00 p.m. And because you we have a 44,000 polling stations in this country, see, everybody we shall be just be sending ah, unajua you send to the national tally. Ah, hii hapa ni kama tumechukua hii hapa tumechukua. So, it was a tight end. So, there there people who started saying that the deep state should now come in for Raila Odinga and you know, just add one vote one vote one vote one vote per per per per per per polling station, but that could not work. What happens and decides who will win especially when, you know, it's hard to call one, is something called a multiplier effect. And how does the multiplier effect work? Like in 2022, I've told you the gap was supposed to be 37,000. Now, at 3:00 p.m., okay?

[00:41:42]>> Mhm.

[00:41:43]>> Imefika saa tisa.

[00:41:45]Tunapiga simu. Sasa tunasema, "Eh, you know, this thing is hard to it's hard to call. How do we now start calling more people to to still come and vote?" So, like for example, the turnout in it's a bit of a complex comp but I think you're getting me. In the turnout in Mount Kenya and turnout in Rift Valley and the places that supported William Ruto, it was easier to do the multiplier effect because there were actual people who came out to vote.

[00:42:12]>> Okay.

[00:42:13]>> The problem as to why it was a hard for Raila to increase his numbers after the enthusiastic voters have finished voting is because people did not turn out to vote, particularly say in Nyanza. So, >> that's how you guys have decided to explain this thing.

[00:42:28]>> Imagine.

[00:42:28]>> I that's what I was talking about.

[00:42:30]>> She has not answered the question.

[00:42:32]>> She has said it's a very difficult concept, but I hope you're getting it.

[00:42:36]>> not answered the question.

[00:42:38]>> I agree.

[00:42:38]>> But yeah.

[00:42:39]>> I love >> Do you see?

[00:42:40]>> I love the logic.

[00:42:42]>> Yes.

[00:42:43]>> I love the logic. Unfortunately, >> Yes.

[00:42:45]>> it doesn't tally with how our elections actually process and how it moves along.

[00:42:51]It is a good theory. It is like the tyranny of numbers.

[00:42:58]You see, it is I like the intellectual approach to this and it is good. What you've done is good.

[00:43:04]You see, if I were to ask you for evidence to support what >> Yes.

[00:43:10]>> you're saying, you'd tell me you have evidence.

[00:43:11]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:43:12]>> Okay.

[00:43:12]>> Yes.

[00:43:13]>> After the fact.

[00:43:14]>> Yes.

[00:43:15]Not now.

[00:43:16]>> No. Three years down the line is when this had it come up on the day, a week, a month, everything you're saying would have been extremely plausible and I'd have said, "You know, this this is actually possible." Three years down the line, >> Mhm.

[00:43:31]>> you might as well >> is not mathing.

[00:43:33]>> No, no. You might as well tell me, you know, that that that that server was moved from Germany to Czechoslovakia.

[00:43:38]>> [laughter] >> But you see, you see also this >> idea of the >> to Budapest.

[00:43:41]>> Yes. This idea this this idea of a stealing elections, how do you actually you you because you see for with the with the new enacted law, the results of the presidential election is announced at at the at the at the at the at the constitution's level.

[00:43:58]>> Yes.

[00:43:58]>> So, and we live in a very digitalized world.

[00:44:01]>> Yes.

[00:44:01]>> Surely, given just the result >> heard of Jose Camargo?

[00:44:05]>> [laughter] >> Did you hear of Jose Camargo?

[00:44:08]>> But you you see >> [laughter] >> If indeed is announced at the constituency, then why do you have a telling center at Bomas? What do we need it for? I mean now it's for the national telling to bring all Let me tell you the official announce what I've heard over and over from folks including even Boniface Manyi who I hosted here last night.

[00:44:34]They have said that this is being said over and over so that we can have that voter apathy.

[00:44:41]So that strongholds of the opposition whether they are flag bearer will be let even say it's Matiang'i.

[00:44:48]Supporters of Matiang'i or Maraga will say or Martha you know, will will say that you know what? Why even come out and vote for Martha? And yet these guys have already rigged this thing. So so they will end up winning anyway because the real supporters of opposition will be like Let us let us also just say that we do have election rigging in Kenya.

[00:45:14]Okay. That one is for sure. We do have election rigging in Kenya. They how because neither of us have been part of rigging an election, we won't be able to give you the facts.

[00:45:24]>> [laughter] >> And as Mark is telling us that he has been a part of You know, we've not been part of the election rigging. But we know we have seen even presidential petitions talking about election rigging and But it has it has never been conclusive. Well They've never said that this election was actually rigged. He actually said that Maraga Maraga's judgment in 2017 was basically saying that yes, we need to go for a rerun because this presidential election did not did not pass free, fair, and credible Yeah, it didn't meet the threshold of free, fair, and credible elections.

[00:45:59]Right, but he didn't say that this election was rigged in favor of a certain candidate.

[00:46:04]>> But if someone says that this election has not reached the threshold of free, fair >> The question you ask is very important.

[00:46:16]But as as journalists I have got to say there is no evidence to suggest that indeed there is no judgement rather that has been has been put out there to say that this election was actually rigged.

[00:46:26]But yes, free, fair and Selma.

[00:46:28]>> What what does what does the meaning What is the meaning of free, fair and credible election?

[00:46:32]>> just mean that according to what is expected of an election in terms of maybe what party has to say.

[00:46:44]>> Free means an election is free from any sort of manipulation and interference.

[00:46:51]What is rigging?

[00:46:53]>> Manipulation.

[00:46:53]>> Exactly. So he's saying the same thing.

[00:46:55]This election has been rigged.

[00:46:57]>> but manipulation is not just rigging.

[00:46:59]Manipulation could be everything else or anything else for that matter.

[00:47:03]>> You know the the thing about our elections we we focus on the presidential election >> and forget about >> Yes, and we forget even about party nominations or elections.

[00:47:18]Our induction into rigging starts with party politics.

[00:47:22]>> I agree.

[00:47:23]>> Because that's where every trickery, every political game that can be played is played.

[00:47:36]So by the time you're going into the national election uh we've practiced because at the party level this is what we've been doing.

[00:47:45]Complaints don't reach the ears of many people at the party level because there are many parties and they're regionally based so they're not national. However >> Right.

[00:47:56]>> when it comes to a presidential election and you talk about rigging My friend >> By the way, there's something in regards to party party nominations. There's something that um uh Daisy Amdany, who's the executive director of Crown Trust, that said in the national gender sector working group on pre-preparedness of elections, said that political parties must make their nomination rules and procedures public.

[00:48:24]That way we can address what you're talking about in terms of the rigging or the culture of rigging um uh let me not even start. Let me use um his words and say the culture of not just rigging but manipulation of of of of elections can be can be addressed because now that's what that's what characterizes the primaries, is what characterizes how the how the um the actual seat will go. Whether it's MCA level, whether it's governor level, and whether it's even MP level. I feel like once if this is actually publicized, that political parties are able to publicize their nomination rules Yeah? Then that way we can be able to audit and say, "Yeah, this party indeed the D is democratic indeed." In not just in name but in nature.

[00:49:10]>> All right.

[00:49:10]>> Uh just in finishing around this because they there has been that part I think it has not been explained well about particularly the advantage of the incumbency over other people other candidates.

[00:49:25]There is a time there is one president in Africa had lost an election. I think it was Kaunda or somebody and they Mobutu was having was in a party and he asked the question, "How can you lose an election which you you have organized yourself?"

[00:49:40]So [laughter] and that has always been one of the analogy because you see the truth of the matter is that the incumbency has advantage of the intelligence system in this country.

[00:49:48]>> Right.

[00:49:49]>> They have you know uh >> Monopoly of violence.

[00:49:52]>> monopoly of violence.

[00:49:53]>> They have >> monopoly of security state operators.

[00:49:56]They have more. But it is true. They have monopoly of >> They have the police. They have the army.

[00:50:02]>> They are the ones who are funding the election commission.

[00:50:04]>> supposed to be independent institutions.

[00:50:07]>> I'm saying where the analogy is picked that, you know, you cannot lose an election which you have organized yourself because literally the entire ecosystem is being controlled by the sitting government.

[00:50:17]>> Yes.

[00:50:17]>> The funding of the electoral commission is done by the sitting government. The security of that commission is done by the sitting government. Somehow we may not want to say it, but even the process to us to how the people who form that commission is elected by the sitting government. So, the the sitting government would normally have, you know, some level of advantage to the opposition. But let me just say this.

[00:50:41]>> Right.

[00:50:41]>> When you are going to a presidential election, a presidential election the fundamentals to a presidential elections are not like that one of an MP. You can always actually do your prediction to eat even a year or two to eat because the truth of the matter is that our election is much based on tribal arithmetic. You can always like right now you can know Mount Kenya is not going to vote for President Ruto like they did in 2022. And once you have already known the fundamentals of that >> Yes.

[00:51:10]>> the only thing that would now matter say is something logistical issues say such as turnout. And I think you when I told you about 700,000 people from Luo Nyanza did not turn out to vote. If these people turned out to vote for say Raila Odinga, he would have been president today.

[00:51:27]>> So, so Mark, are you saying that it is okay for lawmakers to actually publicly say that by via hook or crook we will rig this election?

[00:51:35]>> saying that is right. I'm just saying we need to understand where these analogies coming from. Then we can have that conversation. What could be this that you know, would because they are like okay, here I busy you know, so then we have a conversation >> If that if that were true then how did Odinga lose the last election?

[00:51:58]>> lose the and that's why I >> Because his supporter was the incumbent his chief campaigner was the incumbent who as you say had control of all those faculties within government.

[00:52:10]>> you then you didn't hear me from the word go.

[00:52:12]I said >> analogy >> I'm no, no, no, but I said in that today particular state of things. There is no one who has one monopoly control of this thing called deep state.

[00:52:24]>> Well, I understand.

[00:52:25]>> No one.

[00:52:25]>> I heard you very clearly what you said >> Yes.

[00:52:28]>> is they have an advantage.

[00:52:29]>> Yes, they have an advantage.

[00:52:30]>> And I'm asking where was that advantage?

[00:52:34]during that time during that election.

[00:52:35]>> there should have been an advantage.

[00:52:37]came with supporters to begin with anyway.

[00:52:39]So all he needed was a little nudge. Not too much, just a little nudge.

[00:52:43]>> I think he has confidential >> Although I'll be roasted online is that I don't I still don't think I will be getting lost in 2022 election.

[00:52:53]>> Okay.

[00:52:54]>> Let me know whether evidence that the supreme court Me I I sat with those lawyers on that side. I saw the evidence.

[00:53:07]And I believe that Odinga did not lose the election.

[00:53:12]However, the the instruments of power were given to the current president.

[00:53:17]>> Okay.

[00:53:17]>> Yeah.

[00:53:18]>> I'll allow you 20 seconds each for your last remarks. Unfortunately, we've come to the end of Are you okay?

[00:53:25]>> No, me so it is not the reaction that are amusing me.

[00:53:30]Surely you can answer.

[00:53:34]>> already considered to losing the election over time and surely I think >> No, no, did he concede?

[00:53:41]>> He never conceded.

[00:53:42]>> Of course there's nobody who will always outrightly come out and tell his supporters that you have lost the election. At least state >> Kamala Harris did it.

[00:53:51]>> Yeah.

[00:53:51]>> Uh >> Even Uhuru Kenyatta 2022 >> Uh Uhuru did it.

[00:53:57]And other people who did it that we can count. But guys, >> [laughter] >> you have now 10 seconds. You've already spent your 20 seconds. Okay.

[00:54:05]Closing remarks.

[00:54:06]>> No, more than astonished. Like I'm even run out of words when he says >> Give me >> That Raila won the election.

[00:54:14]That Raila won the election.

[00:54:16]It's very late.

[00:54:17]>> No, no, no, you will still get 30 seconds.

[00:54:19]>> It's very late.

[00:54:20]>> So, see.

[00:54:20]>> I know I threw you off.

[00:54:22]>> I'm like [laughter] >> Uh over to you. 30 seconds.

[00:54:25]>> Um I think when you look at um the issues we spoke about today, one thing maybe we didn't speak about is in regards to the president's remarks. In apologizing for um how the north has been treated in this country, the north of Kenya. And I did I agree and I welcome that apology.

[00:54:42]But what he's talking about um sessional paper 10 was actually um something that was for post-independence Kenya. And the issues with that that he he alluded to, which is right, is in terms of just focusing on high potential areas. Yeah, and that also caused the marginalization. However, 2010 Kenyans came into a new social contract called the 2010 constitution, which brought about devolution. And in this devolution, it said there's some areas in this country that are still underdeveloped. So, we're not only going to give them divisional revenue, we're also going to give them the equalization fund.

[00:55:20]Now, um I feel like his apology and his statements yesterday was not just a an apology, but also a restatement of what is actually enshrined in the constitution. Everything, by the way, he said. So, if all what we need, we ask the William Ruto administration, Tekeleza Katiba.

[00:55:38]>> Mhm.

[00:55:39]>> Hizi vitu zote unajua promise is equal cut back. They are not new. They are not new ideas.

[00:55:45]>> Constitution.

[00:55:46]>> And if anything even about the equalization fund since 2013 they are still behind.

[00:55:51]And in 2013 when this this was actualized who was the chair of Ibec?

[00:55:57]The intergovernmental >> It was really the deputy president.

[00:56:00]>> It was the deputy president. Who was the deputy president in 2013?

[00:56:04]>> William Ruto.

[00:56:05]>> Yes. So unless apology is his is personal but we are all we are just saying I agree the north has been neglected but it has been it hasn't been neglected because of sessional paper number 10. It is by the failure of implementing the constitution and the full promise of devolution.

[00:56:23]>> But also not in his defense but there are some counties that have never claimed their equalization fund. Yeah so as much as someone is in charge of distributing it there are counties that have just never come to claim their share.

[00:56:36]>> Yeah that's true. We even that's true.

[00:56:39]We we should come and discuss that another time in terms of >> and then devolution.

[00:56:43]>> yes.

[00:56:44]>> Thank you lady and gentleman. We'll ask you once you have settled just go read the live comments.

[00:56:50]>> [laughter]