How Odysseus Took His Revenge

[00:00:00]The Odyssey, an epic poem of one man's 10-year journey home. Last time on The Ancients, we followed Adysius from the smoking ruins of Troy through lands of cannibal giants, sorceresses, and a journey to the underworld, only to leave him with a terrible prophecy and a home in chaos.

[00:00:20]Today we plunge into the most deadly part of the journey, the sea of monsters. As Adysius races towards Ithaca, past sirens, a whirlpool, through shipwreck and divine anger. Then finally, he arrives to a palace overrun with predatory suitors who has spent years devouring Adysius's wealth and courting his wife Penelopey, the worst guests imaginable. We will trace Adysius's secret return under the goddess Athena's disguise. his reunion with his son Tmicus and the buildup to one of the grizzliest climaxes in Greek myth, the slaughter of the suitors. And throughout we see how this landscape of slavery, of raiding and hostage taking were part of how masonian bronze age power worked in the real world. I'm your host Tristan Hughes and guiding us once more through these bitter bloody waters is the classicist and novelist Emily Hower. Welcome to the ancients.

[00:01:30]>> Emily, great to have you back on the show.

[00:01:32]>> Wonderful to be back.

[00:01:33]>> It's almost as if we've just finished recording the other one.

[00:01:35]>> It really is.

[00:01:38]>> But we are now halfway through the story of the Odyssey. And we can say that because this is literally the halfway point in the epic story.

[00:01:45]>> Yeah. Well, we're right at the kind of middle of those 24 books of the Odyssey.

[00:01:49]We're at kind of the end of book 11.

[00:01:51]We've got a little bit more adventuring to do before Adysius is going to land back on Ithaca, uh, which he does kind of at that halfway point. Um, but, you know, we're we're closing in now on the final goal.

[00:02:01]>> And, and to clarify, so people know exactly what we're talking about. So this second half of the story of the Odyssey, it is very much it's preparing you for Adysius's his his return to Ithaca, which should be like this great homecoming, but also it's it's not the loveliest homecoming, is it? It soon becomes a very grizzly episode at the same time.

[00:02:23]>> Yeah, he's definitely got problems ahead. So you might sort of think that, okay, well, Adysius gets home uh halfway through the epic. What on earth are we going to do for the rest of the epic? He has got plenty to keep him busy. He has the massive problem of the suitors who are 108 men from around Ithaca and neighboring islands who in his absence while he's been away for 10 years in the Trojan War, 10 years on his way home, they have uh come into his house into his palace, they have kind of eaten all his food, eaten him out of house and home. Uh been trying to persuade his wife to marry them, persuade her to accept that Adysius is dead. Um, and so he's got all of them to kind of get through as well as of course making sure that everybody is back on his side again.

[00:03:03]>> And this is not just the the telling off of the suitors. This isn't the exiling of the suitors. This is the slaughter of the suitors, isn't it?

[00:03:10]>> They're not going to get just a kind of slap on the wrist. This is this is absolutely this is they are all going to get killed in a pretty kind of major blood bath. And not many people think of the end of the Odyssey as kind of ending with a blood bath, but it really does.

[00:03:20]It's it's it's a pretty vicious ending.

[00:03:22]>> And that's what we're going to build up to in the episode today. But first off, for anyone watching or listening who is coming into this episode cold, make sure you do go and listen to the first episode. But if you haven't, shall we just summarize where we've got up to by the end of book 12 of the Odyssey. So the halfway point. So we've covered some big themes, some big events so far.

[00:03:42]>> Yeah. Well, we've actually got up to the end of book 11. Sorry, book 11. Yeah.

[00:03:45]Yeah. No, but we've done a good chunk of the poem. So, what we're looking at with the Odyssey is about 24 24 books of poetry and uh we're sort of about hitting the halfway point. Uh we've had Adysius, he started out on Calypso's island. That's where we first met him at the beginning of the Odyssey. We've seen his son Tmicus go on his own mini voyage. Uh we've seen Adysius then being released from Calypso's island. Uh he gets into a storm. He gets washed up on the island of the Fiatians who are incredibly hospitable, treat him really nicely, and in return he gives them the song of his own voyages um as he kind of got there. And so we then get the tale of everything that happened to him from Troy, the famous episode of the Cyclops, of Cersei. Um we get all of that told by Odysius and then he ultimately ventures to the underworld.

[00:04:30]>> The underworld where we left him, wasn't it?

[00:04:32]>> That's where we left him. Exactly. on the shore of the underworld uh communing with the spirits of the dead uh and getting his directions for his way home.

[00:04:38]>> Yes. So, what have the dead and is Tyresius the prophet in particular, isn't it? What has Tyresius just revealed to Adysius?

[00:04:46]>> Yeah. Well, Teresus hasn't been hugely helpful if he was looking for a kind of Google Maps equivalent of how to get back to Ithaca. Um so, he hasn't given him that. But what he has told him is that sticky situation that, you know, we now know about with the suitors. um the fact that Penelopey is is still waiting, but that Adysius needs to really get back quite sharpish in order to make sure that he can reinstate himself as king of Ithaca. Um and he also tells him that he's got another voyage in his future. Uh once he gets back to Ithaca, he's got to go traveling again. So, this is very much a kind of uh telling us about what's going to happen in the Odyssey, but also telling us that Adysius is someone perhaps who can never really truly come home.

[00:05:21]>> Oh gosh, prophetic, isn't it? And he still has his crew at this time. So, at this point, uh, we're sort of heading into kind of the end of the voyage. He still does have some of his crew. Some of his crew. Yeah. I mean, we've kind of mislaid a few on various adventures. Um, but, you know, we do still have some of them. Um, however, that is about to get seriously reduced. Um, and we've got a monster lying weight in order to do that. And we've also got a kind of pretty serious uh kind of uh trespass that sacrilege they do. A sacrilege.

[00:05:49]Exactly. That the crew do themselves.

[00:05:51]Well, the last thing before we now kind of explore those next key events that you did mention in the first episode, but I want to bring it up again because it's so interesting, especially when we look at the figure of Adysius and how he's portrayed is this idea of him as a hero and how the ancient Greeks would have viewed him as a hero because it isn't just just pure bare bones idolizing this figure. This is also a figure who is quite for those associated with him, it's not going to be plain sailing.

[00:06:21]>> It's not. And in fact, the fact that he kind of brings destruction to his crew is something that is a really strong theme throughout the Odyssey because as the Odyssey opens, it says Adysius is striving for the return of his companions, you know. So, the fact that he fails to get them home is actually a really big part of Adysius's story. Um it's something that as a hero you are someone who is uh probably going to be so because you're such a kind of big figure because you have emotions and ambitions that cannot kind of be contained. Uh you can be very destructive to the people around you and it's Adysius's ambition to get back to Ithaca pretty much at all costs. Does it that is what ultimately then costs him all of his men.

[00:07:04]>> Absolutely. And one other thing that we'll be doing uh as this chat goes on is yes we'll be largely talking about the stories and these figures from the mythology uh man and myth uh beasts and so on but also exploring from time to time the real life locations that become linked to these key events. We've already mentioned we mentioned places like is it um Calypso on Malta um the Fishians on Corfu, the river Aaron which is actually a river today in northwest Greece.

[00:07:38]>> Yep. Exactly.

[00:07:39]>> And there are several more locations as well for the events that we're going to cover that people later associated with that actually being the place of the sirens of Cersei and and so on. Well, that's the thing is that when Adysius is kind of going on his voyage, it is a voyage through geography, right? The poet is describing islands. He's describing natural features. And so, I think throughout history, people have been so beguiled by the idea that this might be a real place and have kind of gone on their own little mini odyssey trying to find out where these places are. So, there are absolutely ways that we can match up what kind of later people thought might be the original places of the Odyssey.

[00:08:14]>> So, how did Rome begin? with a throne, a triumph, or a murder between brothers.

[00:08:21]Well, according to legend, the mighty city was founded by the twin sons of Mars, Romulus and Remis. Abandoned as infants, suckled by a shewolf, and destined for greatness until ambition poisoned their bond. I'm Tristan Hughes, and I cannot wait to get into the explosive story of Romulus and Remis on the Ancients live tour in Australia and New Zealand this August. I'm going to be joined by the fantastic Jeremy Armstrong. He's a professor of ancient history and an expert on early Rome. And together, we'll follow the myth from divine origins to blood soaked founding legend, teasing apart what the Romans believed, what archaeology can actually tell us, and how a city built on stories became one of the greatest powers in history. Tickets are on sale now. We're coming to Canra on the 2nd of August and we're going to be in Oakuckland on the 8th. The tickets, they are selling fast.

[00:09:17]So, book yours now at fain.com.auu.

[00:09:22]Can't wait to see you there. So, how should we kick off this story? Where do we begin for this second half of the Odyssey?

[00:09:29]>> Well, we're probably heading out of the underworld, aren't we? We'll get our ships. We'll we'll get them back off the beach. We'll say goodbye to the spirits.

[00:09:35]Um, we've had a little bit of information from the spirits, not just from Tyrese Yas, but also from the kind of triad of Greeks. We've had Achilles, who has done this amazing speech where he says that basically he would rather be the lowest laborer and be alive than be the king of the underworld. So, a complete turnaround from the Achilles of the Iliad we've got here. Uh, we've got Agamemnon who tells uh Adysius about all of the terrible things that happened to him back home. the fact that he was uh murdered by Clytoestra and her lover Agisus. Um and then we've got Ajax who just sulks and uh is is a bit annoyed that Adysius won the armor of Achilles which is one of those earlier episodes from the Trojan War. However, we draw our ships up. We say goodbye to the spirits and we go back and Adysius travels back to Cersei's island. Um and he's got quite an important job to do there. He's got to bury one of his uh comrades who had a tragic accident before Adysius left. uh and who actually appeared to him uh rather kind of tragically as a spirit as a shade in the underworld and said please bury my body.

[00:10:35]>> Did he did did this already know that he had died or was that revealed to him?

[00:10:38]>> It was revealed to him there. So it's it's a real kind of tragedy that that this guy Alpenor is his name kind of says you you need to make sure to bury me.

[00:10:46]>> And also as you mention and in the last episode so Cersei you know witch slash you know what we call many drugs. Many drugs Cersei >> with a lot of a lot of knowledge of drugs.

[00:10:58]and a romantic relationship between Adysius and Cersei develops from that.

[00:11:04]And then he leaves to go to the underworld. And then he's gone back to Cersei's island. He doesn't stay there long for the second time.

[00:11:09]>> No. No. Now he's kind of got his purpose. He's got his mission. Yeah.

[00:11:12]He's got Exactly. And he's got kind of the problem, hasn't he? Because the the issue is now that he knows what's happening back on Ithaca. Tyresias, the prophet, has told him all of the terrible things that are happening. So now his sights have kind of moved from this fantasy world that he's been wandering around with sort of aimlessly and now he's really kind of sight set back on Ithaca.

[00:11:31]>> And so where does he head off to with his troops with his men from Cersei's island?

[00:11:36]>> So Cersei gives him kind of the directions that he needs to to carry on and he's got a couple of different adventures ahead of him. Um we've got famously Sila and Kuribdus. Uh so we've got uh basically a choice between two evils. We've got uh Kuribdus, which is a kind of sucking whirlpool, which you can't escape from. And we've got Silla, a kind of multi-headed dogheaded monster who kind of lurks in a cave and kind of zooms out and snatches sailors from the ship. So, >> and as Cersei said, you have to go past one or two of choose one of those. And she advises him that Silla is probably the better one. Uh we kind of have got to know Adysius over these episodes.

[00:12:12]He's going to sacrifice a few men. Uh and that's exactly what he does. So, he ends up losing six men on the way past Zilla. So that's where he's got to get to. But do we have the sirens episode before that?

[00:12:22]>> We do. So before we even get there, we've got the sirens on the way. Let's do that.

[00:12:25]>> Yeah. So the sirens are really interesting because the sirens um they are meant to kind of be these ultimate lure to men. And if you basically go past the sirens, you're not going to be able to resist them. They've got the wreckage of ships kind of around and beneath them. Um but Adysius, of course, is ultimately curious. Uh he will not be stopped. And so Cersei suggests to him, if you want to hear the song of the sirens, then what you need to do is you need to get your men to bind you to the mast and then put wax in your ears and then uh put sorry, put wax in their ears and you don't have wax in your ears.

[00:12:59]You're going to be you're going to be hearing everything that they're saying.

[00:13:02]You're going to be the only one essentially who is going to hear the song of the sirens and live to tell the tale.

[00:13:06]>> And the sirens, the later ideas, you know, they're beautiful women, but isn't it in the original they're they're bird women or something like that?

[00:13:13]>> Yeah, they're sort of bird women. So they're sort of edging into this world of monsters that we're seeing with Zilla and Carib Caribus as well. So yeah, absolutely a kind of monstrosity to them. Um and we know that their voices are very sed seductive. So what I find fascinating is well what is it that a siren would sing that would be the thing that would cause a man to kind of wreck his ship on the rocks. And what it is is it is his epic.

[00:13:37]So what the sirens do is they basically present a hero with what he wants above all which is to be sung of to be immortalized in song and therefore to be remembered. Um and so they basically what's it's really beautiful they basically sing of Adysius the sacker of cities. They give him epithets like epithets that Achilles gets you know sort of a hero among heroes. Um and that is the thing that is so tantalizing for a hero to hear. They don't call him Poly Tropos, which is what he's described as at the beginning, which is kind of a a complicated figure, is it?

[00:14:06]>> Yeah. So, that's Emily Wilson's translation is complicated. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:09]Poly tropos, which is a fantastic translation. Um, but yes, complex, complicated. That's exactly what he is.

[00:14:15]But they call him a sacker of cities.

[00:14:16]>> The sirens are much more flattering to him and what he wants to hear.

[00:14:19]>> Well, then they turn him into the hero that he kind of wants to be because at this point he's very anxious about what his legacy is going to be. He's not back in Ithaca yet. Um, he hasn't secured his legacy as king. Um, so I think, you know, the fact that you hear your own epic being sung to him is ultimately tantalizing.

[00:14:35]>> This is the more narcissistic side of Adysius coming out, though, right? He's willing to, yes, okay, his men have got the wax in their ears, so they can't hear, but he's still willing to steer their ship very near this very dangerous these dangerous mythical creatures on the way to to satate his own desire for glory.

[00:14:50]>> Absolutely. And like, let's not kind of beat around the bush. It's also other men who have also done that, right?

[00:14:54]Because they're all wrecked there as well.

[00:14:56]He's part of a kind of um a group of men who to whom this is deeply alluring.

[00:15:02]>> And geographically speaking, I said we we visit this once in a while. This is very much associated with the the coastline of Italy with the terraneian sea, isn't it?

[00:15:11]>> Yeah, absolutely. So there are sort of legends that associate Cersei with Italy. Um so there is um a mountain there called Monte Chel which is still kind of in its name uh connected to Cersei. Um and then obviously yes the terrinian sea and then the straits between Sicily and Italy often sort of thought of as where maybe Sila and Caribis might have been imagined as.

[00:15:32]>> I love that. I love that because um recently I went to Pestum. I don't know if you've ever been to >> I have. Oh, >> the very massive gorgeous temples, >> Doric temples, you know, there. Um, but one of the like the association there, you know, first of all, the ancient Greeks in southern Italy, big presence there and their beliefs and one of the gates in the big walls that surround Pest and today is called the Porter Desera. Um, and supposedly it's very difficult to see today, but right at the top of that gate there's a little relief which supposedly shows a siren. So that kind of association well at least the ancient Greeks who lived there probably was a strong thinking that the sirens lived not too far away from where we were. But once again I just wanted to bring that in because it's that that geography link to yes it's mythological but it's what they thought >> but also exactly later people believing that that was part of the map of where they lived and that they thought that that was so important that they would incorporate that in kind of their daily life.

[00:16:27]>> Absolutely. Well let's get towards the straight. So the straight of Msina. Um, and this is supposedly where Adysius has that choice.

[00:16:36]>> Exactly. This is the the fatal choice that Cersei gives him.

[00:16:39]>> And Skiller or Crypt. And there's no way round. He has to choose one or the other.

[00:16:43]>> He has to choose. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:16:44]Which is a kind of, you know, beautiful kind of moment of like, you know, really pinning the hero down and being like, what are you going to do in this situation? And yes. So he he takes Cersei's advice and he he goes past Silla and it is this kind of horrible moment of kind of rowing past that cave as fast as you can. The monster kind of snatching out um gobbling up some of his men. It's exactly what we see saw happening with the Cyclops when he lost some of his men being eaten by the Cyclops. So this is kind of in some sense a kind of reiteration of something that's happened to the crew before.

[00:17:14]>> And is it this idea of like a threeheaded monster? Is it three heads or just one head? So it's multiple heads and and the barking sounds like a dog is what Homer says.

[00:17:24]>> So I think of Fluffy from Harry Potter and the Stone, you know. Yeah. If that floats your boat, Vicious Fluffy.

[00:17:29]Exactly. Exactly.

[00:17:30]>> Um and I guess the idea that it portrays is those heads kind of going down again and again on the ships as it's going through the >> Exactly. Which is why they've got to row as fast as they can to get through.

[00:17:41]>> Okay. And so they lose quite a few men.

[00:17:45]>> Yeah. So he loses six men on his way through. Yeah. Um, and at this point, I'm pretty sure he's only down to one ship left, uh, of the ships that he had.

[00:17:54]So, you know, we're already quite low on men. Um, and that's kind of the point at which they land kind of on their final stop, which is the island of Trinacia, um, and the cattle of the sun.

[00:18:03]>> And that's interesting. Also, as a throwback to our first episode, you mentioned the first things that he does after leaving Troy is sack a few cities, take, you know, take women as war booty quite frankly, as captives and the like.

[00:18:16]So you have to imagine at the beginning you know there are several boats full of men but also captives as well.

[00:18:21]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:22]>> All of them apart from one ship have been lost by this stage in the journey.

[00:18:26]>> Absolutely. That's exactly right. And also you know these are if we think about the men the men who have come from Ithaca these are men whose mothers whose sisters whose wives sent them off to war and have been waiting for 20 years for them to come home. And then Adysius basically kind of does a trade with Silla and is like, "Well, I need to get through here to get to Ithaca and you know, these are the men I'm going to lose." So, you've got to think about what the people of Ithaca are going to think when Adysius uh returns. And this is why it's so dangerous for him to return to Ithaca, why he takes so long to kind of return and make sure that everyone's on his side when he does kind of all of that disguise. It's because he has lost all of these people.

[00:19:02]>> Fair enough. So, for those on that one ship who have survived, Skila, is it Skilla or Skiler? either whichever you prefer. It's Yeah, it's funny how it's spelled. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:12]>> Scooter. Where do they end up next?

[00:19:14]>> Yeah. So, the next and kind of final stop which Cersei has told them about is the island of the sun god's cattle uh called Thrinakia. Um and basically Cersei has told uh Adysius that the kind of one and only thing that they need to make sure not to do is uh not to eat the castle of the sun god.

[00:19:32]>> And the sun god is helios not Apollo or >> that is right. So basically the kind of there are old gods of the kind of the what we call the titans the kind of the early order of gods and Helios is one of those. Apollo then later as a kind of new god becomes kind of the sun god but Helios is the old sun god. Um yes so these are his his kind of special cattle and they're just meant to leave them alone. Now what's really interesting and we didn't talk about this earlier but in one episode of the Odyssey as he's relating his travels earlier um Adysius talks about an island that he went to the island of Eololis uh the king of the winds. Um and he essentially is the person who governs the north wind, west wind, south wind, east. He is the one who can make sure you get home.

[00:20:10]>> A big deal for sailor.

[00:20:12]>> A big deal for someone like Adysius. And of course in that episode uh he very kindly kind of makes sure that Adysius has exactly the wind that he needs. And he leaves that out. And the others he pops them in a bag, ties up the bag, and tells Adysius not to undo the bag. And Adysius guarding that bag on his ship falls asleep. And of course, what do his crew do? They think it's full of treasure. They open the bag and Adysius gets blown all the way back to the island of the winds. So, this is a very similar situation where we've got this moment where, okay, the hero has been told he can't do this. If he does this, it's going to be ruin. And what do the crew do? Of course, they do it anyway.

[00:20:49]>> So, does this reflect badly on Adysius that he can't control his men, or is this very much a thing that Adysius did all that he could, but he couldn't control his men?

[00:21:00]>> I think at this point it is more the latter. I think it's more that um you know they are kind of consigning themselves to their fate. Um you know that he does kind of try to warn them uh this has already been said and kind of outlined to them as something that will be really fatal if they do it and uh they just kind of go ahead and do it. So I think at this point we are seeing a leader who is uh really kind of battling to get his his crew home and just he just can't resist uh kind of the cruel workings of fate essentially.

[00:21:26]>> So he sees them cooking up the cattle.

[00:21:28]>> Yeah. Um, >> and it's this horrible scene where as they cook, they sort of make this these sort of mooing sounds as they're being cooked. It's it's really really kind of disturbing.

[00:21:36]>> And uh, does Helios come with a vengeance right there and then whilst they're still on shore? I mean, how does that divine punishment, that divine vengeance that, let's be honest, we know is coming?

[00:21:48]>> How is it delivered?

[00:21:49]>> Yeah. Well, it's delivered as it often is in a storm. It's a storm. Yeah. So, you know, blown off uh the the island again, you know, can't get back home.

[00:21:56]everyone wrecked um apart from Adysius.

[00:21:59]Um and uh yeah, as he's in that storm, he gets blown back into uh Siller and Corbdis. And at this point, he goes back to Kuribdus.

[00:22:06]>> He's all by himself. He's hanging over the whirlpool, holding onto a fig tree that that is kind of extending over the whirlpool and manages to get himself just clam out of that, holds onto a bit of driftwood. And that is the point at which he washes up on Calypso's island.

[00:22:20]>> And how is he described as he holds on to that bit of >> So when he's holding on, he's described as holding on like a bat. like a bat. I had no idea about this until you mentioned just before we started recording, but that is a funny uh simile.

[00:22:32]>> Oh, I love it because I just feel like it's that kind of sense of just kind of clinging with your claws to the branch and sort of maybe also that sense of maybe being sort of slightly sort of topsyturvy upside down and just sort of um but also, you know, that sort of sense of the creature of the night. So, I think there's a lot of sort of darkness to this this episode in Adysius's life where he doesn't know um whether he's going to live or die. And in fact, if we're thinking about bats when the suitors way way way at the end of the Odyssey are described as being killed, they go to the underworld squeaking like bats. So we've got Bats as kind of here as sort of maybe Adysius is quite close to getting killed and it's just he just gets out of it. He gets on to Calypso's island and of course that is actually where we start the Odyssey. We start the Odyssey right in the middle of the action. Um the the kind of term we use for this is in Medias rays. In the middle of the action we start on Calypso's island. So that story, that kind of narration that Adysius has given us of his travels, it ends with a point that we started the Odyssey >> and and and just as you said there, so actually what we've been talking about with the Cyclops and Cersei in the last episode with the sirens, Silla and Kibdus and the Cattle in this episode, all of that in the story is coming from Adysius's mouth that he is retelling to a king and queen and a princess that he's met along the way.

[00:23:46]Is it now when we get to Calypso's island that it goes out of that?

[00:23:51]>> Exactly. We switch out and he says, "Right, you know, I'm going to finish my story here." And that's the point where we then kind of move from Aditius's narration of his adventures into, "Okay, well, what happens next?" We are now sitting on the island of the Fiats. We are, you know, as close as we think we can get to getting back to Ithaca. They have very good ships. We know this.

[00:24:09]We've been told this. Um, and all he needs from them is a ship. And if they give that then Ithaca might once again be within sight.

[00:24:16]>> I think let's briefly recap Calypso because she's such an amazing figure that we should um because does it also feel that that part of the story when he's lost all of his crew when he's been hanging like a bat when he's washed up, no ship, nothing left on the island. Is it fair to say that this is the lowest point for Adysius?

[00:24:35]>> I mean, there have been many low points.

[00:24:36]>> I know. I know. That's why I say the the lowest maybe, >> but I think you're right that it's the lowest um because he's lost his crew.

[00:24:42]And you know, that's why I would say, you know, we talked about the island of the winds where that must have felt so difficult like the fact that they were actually within sight of Ithaca.

[00:24:49]>> Oh, they could see they could see it.

[00:24:51]>> Um and that's when the men opened the bag of the wind. So, you know, there have been moments of real kind of tragedy, but I think here because he's lost all of his men and he's kind of really failed in giving them that homecoming and he's no closer to getting home himself. I think yeah, there is probably a real desperation there. And it's it's why kind of as the Odyssey opens um when we first see him on on Calypso's island, we see him sitting on the shore and weeping and this really kind of emotive view of a man who's just kind of longing to get home.

[00:25:17]>> And so enter Calypso. Who is Calypso?

[00:25:19]And what does she do with Adysius when he ends up stranded on her island?

[00:25:23]>> Well, so she's a nymph. Uh she is, you know, a goddess, immortal goddess. She lives alone on this island called Aija.

[00:25:31]Um and she essentially kind of brings him in. uh she gives him kind of food and drink uh as you would to kind of a guest uh but they also sleep together uh and they end up kind of uh spending seven years together uh of his voyage of his return. So a long long time that Adysius is there. Now Adysius's version and I feel like you know it's important we label it Adysius's version because we get a lot of this from Adysius is that she has been keeping him captive and that he hasn't been able to leave uh because he didn't have the tools that he needed to make a raft. He didn't have a sale. Um, and it is only when after that seven-year period, Hermes then comes down from Zeus, uh, which is where we start the Odyssey. It's only then that Adysius is allowed to get free >> because this is, of course, this is post the event that's made him realize that he needs to get home. And we covered in the last episode how the first time he visits Cersei, it's almost like he forgets and he he doesn't have that purpose yet because he hasn't visually yet. Yes, fair enough. if it is Adysius's version, but could there be more truth or at least belief behind the story that like he did want to get off the island, he simply just couldn't for seven whole years?

[00:26:38]>> Yeah, I mean there is definitely kind of a sense of that kind of that desperation in that like you know if you're in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea on an island and you don't have the means to build a boat like it is really really hard to get off. Um at the same time you know we also see Calypso in the Odyssey professing kind of the fact that she would love for Adysius to stay and that she would make him immortal if he would stay with her. she obviously also has a vested interest in this. So, so yes, I think we can kind of see Adysius as someone who um you know, really was kind of wanting to get off. On the other hand, you know, kind of you know, he hasn't seven years of of sex with Calypso, you know, I mean, he hasn't struggled that hard.

[00:27:14]>> It's not been too bad, has it? So, in regards to years wise, I mean, how many years have we now covered from leaving Ithaca to go for the Trojan War?

[00:27:24]That's 10 years.

[00:27:24]>> Yeah, we got 10 years there. Yeah. and then up to him now reaching the island of the F the Fishians, the Fishians or however you say it after he leaves Calypso's island. How many more years have we covered since then?

[00:27:35]>> Um so we basically have got um seven years with Calypso. We've got one year with Cersei uh that he's done on the way and then kind of the rest of it is probably puzzled together from all of those different stop offs that he does on his way. And by the time we're kind of in the 20th year, that's the point at which he then kind of finally gets back to Ithaca.

[00:27:52]>> And is this the next part of the story?

[00:27:54]So >> yeah, >> he's done his retelling to this king who's given them and the queen who, as you said, actually seems to be making them all the decisions >> and now he has the a fresh ship, >> the transport to finally get back home.

[00:28:08]The return.

[00:28:10]>> Yeah, the return is about to happen. And that's why, you know, the the fations are so important to him because they are the moment where he suddenly gets this ship that is going to take him back to Ithaca. And not just that, but these are kind of magic ships because they can move by themselves. Um, and they go, the poet says, as swift as a thought. So, the kind of idea is you just kind of think where you want to go and they'll they'll just take you there. So, real kind of proper magic ships. Um, and he falls asleep. Of course, he kind of falls asleep. You're in this kind of moment where you're transitioning between the fantasy world and then the world of Ithaca. And when he wakes up, they've put him on the shore of Ithaca.

[00:28:45]They've put all of his treasure in a cave and a mist has kind of been cast over the land. And at first he's not really sure where he's got to and he thinks, "Oh my gosh, I maybe I've gone to a different island. You know, I'm I'm not back in my island, Ithaca." And it's kind of a moment of of real worry for him.

[00:28:59]>> But of course, it's not the end of the story. Um, and the gods will still play a big role in what will happen next.

[00:29:05]First off, I want to ask about Poseidon, >> god of the sea, because he's not best pleased with Adysius since killing his is it his son Polyphimas?

[00:29:13]>> That's right. Yeah.

[00:29:14]>> Yeah. So So he's been obviously God of the Sea, making sure he can't get home.

[00:29:18]>> Yeah. when he finds out that Adysius has been helped has actually got home. Is he still angry with Adysius?

[00:29:24]>> He is very angry. Um yes. So Poseidon has a long grudge against Adysius because of the blinding of his son, the Cyclops Polyphimmas. Um and of course the Cyclops cursed Adysius. So Poseidon takes this very seriously. The fact that the Fiatans have done this is seen as a massive insult to him. Um now Adysius at this point is in fact, although he doesn't know it, safely back on Ithaca.

[00:29:47]Um, and at this point, Poseidon, I think, as god of the sea, realizes that's kind of the end of his uh, jurisdiction. But what he does do is he takes out his anger against the Fatians who helped Adysius. And so, when their ship gets back into uh, the harbor of the Fiats, it's extraordinary moment where he sort of slams his hand against the side of the ship and it gets turned to stone.

[00:30:08]>> Gosh. And everyone on board gets turned to stone.

[00:30:12]>> Yeah. And it's it's a really kind of horrible moment of basically kind of him like interdicting this seafaring nation and just sort of but but what's also fun to go back to kind of what you were saying about where real places might be.

[00:30:23]Uh there are many rocks uh kind of in the the islands around that kind of that area particularly Corfu uh that kind of maybe look like ships and that people have thought well maybe that is the the kind of rock that people thought was a ship turned into stone from the Okay. So the key episodes have been from where we start. So Underworld, Cersei, Sirens, Skiller and Cryptus, Calypso, >> Fiats, >> Fiatians, Ithaca.

[00:30:51]>> That's right. So we are finally now, thanks to the magic ships, we are finally on Ithaca. Um, and we're kind of just about past the kind of halfway point of the narrative. So, you know, as we said, we've got still kind of a good 12 or so books um to to get us into that point where Adysius feels like he can kind of be certain enough that he can kind of start to stage the comeback as it were, but at this point, he's really got to start gathering his allies around him.

[00:31:16]>> And which divine allies does he have?

[00:31:19]Not just in the mortal realm.

[00:31:20]>> Yeah. Well, the first one is a really important divine ally because you've got to get the gods on your side if you're in the ancient world. And the first one is Athena.

[00:31:27]>> It's Athena. Yeah. And so Athena, she's she's sort of been the patron of Adysius the whole way through. We saw her coming into Olympus right at the beginning and making sure that he got freed from Calypso's island. And it is her now in this second half of the narrative who comes to Adysius personally um and basically reveals herself to him, reveals the island. She lifts the mist off in a kind of beautiful moment of revelation. And Adysius suddenly sees that he is back on his homeland of Ithaca again. So he sees and from then on as she knows that Adysius still has got a lot to do because he's returning on his own.

[00:32:00]>> Yeah.

[00:32:01]>> They're conversing together as well.

[00:32:02]That's another key part of the story. So what do they decide is the next step for Adysius?

[00:32:06]>> Well, they basically decide that he needs to approach this in stages. So it's really important that he doesn't kind of just storm into the palace say, you know, I'm here, I'm home, I'm king, I'm back.

[00:32:16]>> Exactly. Because, you know, would people believe him? It's been a long time. He's obviously changed. Um, there's also kind of the fact of all of the people that he's lost on the way. Uh, there's the fact he doesn't even know who is loyal to him anymore after 20 years. Do they all believe he's dead? Is Penelopey even loyal anymore? So, he's got to kind of approach this in stages and gather his allies around him. So, what Athena does is a really important moment of kind of uh the narrative is that she transforms him so that he looks like a beggar, like an old homeless kind of poor man. And that's really important for him because that kind of changes his status. It makes him kind of at the lowest level of the social hierarchy and that's what will slowly allow him to then climb his way back up to becoming king again.

[00:32:57]>> So he's been transformed into a beggar and then he starts walking towards the palace itself. I mean who does he meet along the way?

[00:33:05]>> Yeah. So on his way he meets a really key figure, Umus.

[00:33:08]>> Um yes.

[00:33:09]>> And um is the swine herd. So he's looking after the palace's pigs. Um he is an enslaved person. So like very kind of faithful to Adysius, faithful to the palace. Um and Adysius knows that, but he's obviously got to kind of test his loyalty. So coming in as an old uh beggar, uh he basically asks for his hospitality. And um who's, you know, one of the good guys, makes sure that he shows him good hospitality and gives him a nice little meal of some some piglets.

[00:33:35]>> And how yes, how does that interaction play out? What does Adysius ask him to get a a sense of the lie of the land as it is?

[00:33:40]>> Yeah. Well, so he wants to first of all find out what's happening up at the palace. So he wants to know kind of what's the situation with the suitors, what's the situation with Tmicus, with Adysius's son, with Penelopey. Um, and he also kind of sets up this uh false identity as it were of his his past, which is one of what we call these [ __ ] tales and tales.

[00:33:59]>> Cret and Tales. Yeah. So each of these, there are three different times where he pretends to be somebody from Cree. The first time he's done it is to Athena, uh, because he wasn't quite sure who she was at first. So he he said one of these little lies where he pretends that he's got this background um uh with Cree the second time to um and then he does another one later on to Penelopey. Now meanwhile Athena is helping with Adysius but in the last chap we also covered how there's also this adventure of Adysius's son Tmicus. Yeah he's gone to find out more about what's happened to his dad visited other kind of key figures of the Trojan War who have made it home like Neestor and Menaus king of Sparta and so on. But for a thing, is Tmicus on Ithaca at that time or does he need to get back to Ithaca? So >> yeah, he needs to get back and there's a serious kind of jeopardy here because Tmicus is obviously quite seriously hated by the suitors who want Penelope's hand and quite clearly want him out of the way because he's a potential heir once he kind of becomes a man. So uh what's happened is he uh is now he started off with Pilos. then went to Sparta. Um, and on his way back, they are very much planning to ambush him.

[00:35:06]Um, and so he is in serious kind of danger at at this at this point in terms of the ambush, but at the point where Adysius has landed on Ithaca, he is still kind of about to make his way back. So again, we've got these two these father and son stories happening in parallel.

[00:35:19]>> Is there a moment where they both reunite?

[00:35:21]>> They do. So once Tmicus manages to get through that ambush, he he survives.

[00:35:25]He's okay. um he first goes to Umus's hut and who should be visiting there but the old beggar. So Adysius at this point is ineous's hut at Tmkus comes in and we've got this amazing moment where the father for the first time in 20 years gazes on his son again um and he does reveal himself to Tmicus at this point make sure that he's got Tmicus on side.

[00:35:46]He's now sort of slowly building up his allies.

[00:35:49]>> And from there, you know, from that lowly swine herds hut, is that where they start to to plan what they're going to do?

[00:35:58]>> This is where the coup begins.

[00:35:59]>> The coup. And it's funny that you say a coup because this is >> this is how it's portrayed. I don't think really in the late Bronze Age, uh, a kingdom or one of these states would have been happy for a kingdom to be away for 20 years. But in this he is still the rightful king and it's a coup to try and retake control of his palace.

[00:36:17]>> Yeah.

[00:36:18]>> From the main enemy who are who we should introduce now, the suitors.

[00:36:21]>> Absolutely. And certainly in Adysius's mind, it's his rightful kingdom. Right.

[00:36:25]We could argue about whether actually having been absent for 20 years, it is anymore. But uh but in his mind, it certainly is. So yeah, what we've got is this kind of major thorn in Adysius's side, which are uh these these hundred or so men who are kind of sitting in his palace, uh eating all of his food, um you know, kind of get making their way through all of his livestock, impoverishing the palace, uh drinking his wine, uh behaving really really badly and lavishly, um and also kind of uh trying to force Penelopey, his wife, to basically admit that Adysius has died and that she's going to take a new husband and that that husband will be the king of Ithaca. So for Odysius, this is a massive threat and he's got to make sure that he gets there in time before Penelope basically gives up the ghost and says, "Okay, I'm going to choose one of you."

[00:37:11]>> Emily, we're getting towards the end now, the final big climax, the final big showdown. And I feel before we get to that, we have kind of mentioned the suitors as the key enemy for Adysius on his homecoming, but do we hear much about who they actually are? Do they get a lot of character development in the in the Odyssey?

[00:37:32]>> Yeah. Well, we do get some of them who kind of really stick out and some of them are given sort of characterization.

[00:37:37]So, yes, there are a lot of them, but um one of them above all I think probably is the leader and that's antinuous.

[00:37:42]>> Antinuous.

[00:37:43]>> Yeah. And that's quite fun because his name means no, which is the nose bit at the end. That means thought or mind and anti means against. So, he's a sort of plotter against. He's someone who can think in response and against your every move. And that's obviously exactly what someone like Adysius is going to be extremely threatened by because he's a bit cunning and crafty. Um so Antinuis and all of the other men, they are a real threat to Adysius. Um and that is basically what he as he's gathering these various different allies and factions. He's working out who is faithful to him and who is faithful to the suitors.

[00:38:17]>> Interesting. And is Antinuous, can you see that he's kind of he's scheming at the same time? Jeremy mentioned that attempt to ambush Tmicus as well. So it's not very much he's just lousing about in the palace all the time. He's also very much thinking about how to make the next move.

[00:38:33]>> Absolutely. And the intimidation of Tmicus at the beginning and then the outright kind of attempt to to kill him is very much a part of this kind of escalation that the suitors are engaging in. Of course, that will end in the fact that Penelopey does ultimately decide that she's going to have a marriage contest. So the suitors at that point think they've really, you know, their their tactics have worked. They've been kind of scaling up and they're about to marry Penelopey in their minds.

[00:38:55]>> And how had Penelopey been keeping off the suitors up to that point?

[00:39:00]>> Yeah. Well, this is the famous trick that Penelopey engages in. And we've been talking a lot about kind of the cunning of Adysius. But I think it's important that we also recognize and acknowledge the immense cunning of Penelopey um who is in many ways kind of a foil for Adysius in terms of kind of just how smart she is and how she's able to kind of outwit the suitors. So, um, we learn multiple times through the poem that Penelopey has come up with this amazing ruse in order to kind of fend off the suitors because, you know, we're looking at a lot of years that she's had to kind of keep them at bay. And, uh, for for multiple years, one of the things that she said she would do was that when she had finished weaving this funeral shroud for Leertes, that that's Adysius's father, then at that point she would marry a suitor. So, she's given them an end point. However, what they don't know, of course, is that every night she is unweaving whatever she has woven during the day. And in so doing, for about four years, she manages to fend off the suitors. Um, now it sounds, I think, uh, for a modern audience like, well, why would they have believed that she would take four years to just kind of weave a funeral shroud, but in fact, these could have been very kind of intricate, complex garments. They could have had figurative scenes on them. So, in fact, if Penelopey was taking a lot of time, I think that's probably not something that would have surprised them. Of course, ultimately they do find out.

[00:40:15]>> They find out, do they? How do they >> do find out? Well, it's one of the enslaved women, in fact, who who kind of uh uh passes the message on.

[00:40:22]>> And these enslaved women in the palace, are they very much portrayed as being in the team of the suitors? I mean, what do we know? Because, you know, whether it's sexual assault or are they being very much complicit with the suitors? Yeah, I mean with the enslaved women, I think it's really difficult because in the way that they are being conceived of at the time in this poetry, they are definitely being seen of as kind of the property of Adysius. And so for him, that's the real issue is that when the suitors have kind of committed sexual assault against these women, they've also kind of assaulted his property. And for him, that's a real issue. So, in Adysius's mind, they are absolutely team suitors because at that point, they've kind of gone over to that side. In terms of what they were doing and what they thought, um, I think that's a lot harder to say.

[00:41:10]Um, whether they're given any agency in that, I I very much doubt. Um, there is one woman who's called Meantho who is very much painted as kind of a woman who has gone over to the side of the suitors. Uh, but of course, again, in part that's because Adysius is very much thinking that way. Good to cover the suitors in a bit more depth as we have now to kind of understand what Adysius is arriving into. So, so can you paint that scene for us now? So, he's got Tmicus by his side, Umus as well. Are there any other allies with him as he enters the palace? What do we know about this particular part?

[00:41:43]>> So, there's another ally, a goat herd called, I believe, Feloius, um, who joins the crew on the way. Uh, and then you've got the the good goat herd and the bad goat herd. bad goat herd is Meanthus who we already measured measured up. Um so we've got you know this sort of growing posy around Adysius as he's going up to the palace. Um and then once he reaches the palace uh there he's kind of disguised as a beggar. He comes in he is very badly treated by the suitors uh who are not pleased to see an old beggar kicking around the palace. In fact they already have an old beggar at the palace who also doesn't want to have a rival. And so they get into a bit of a scuffle.

[00:42:18]>> And so he arrives in the palace as an old beggar. For what purpose? Because otherwise you're thinking, well, why Yeah. If you're in the eyes of the suitors, why has this old beggar just decided been welcomed into this palace?

[00:42:30]>> Yeah. Well, again, what he's doing is he's sort of closing the circle of where he's trying to get to, which is ultimately getting into the palace and getting to Penelope. So, he's just inching closer and closer to his goal.

[00:42:41]Um, it is obviously quite kind of tactically quite dangerous because he is being seen as kind of the very bottom rung of of society. Uh, he gets things thrown at him. uh as I say he ends up kind of having this this scuffle with with the other beggar whose name is OS.

[00:42:54]Uh so it's all not very dignified uh for Adysius. Uh but what kind of ends up happening is that then uh you know they step in and say well this isn't okay and he ends up being being drawn into that circle that inner circle of the Ithacan palace and that is the point where then uh Penelopey orders that he has a bath by Uriclair the old nursemaid.

[00:43:15]>> And is this where he is recognized? This is where he's recognized and this is a moment which is so fascinating because he is running out of control in terms of his ability to control the recognition because all of the other ones he was the one who said you know I'm Adysius revealing himself but at this point where he has a foot bath and Uracleair the old enslaved nurse um washes his feet and she sees a scar on his leg that she recognizes from the young Adysius that he had in a boar hunting accident when he was a and she suddenly realizes this is her old master.

[00:43:50]>> So does Uracle is she team Adysius or team suitors? Does she give him up?

[00:43:54]>> She's absolutely team Adysius. I mean she basically both breastfed Adysius and she breastfed Tmicus. So she's been the wet nurse for both of them the men in the family. So she is she is born and bred absolutely in that family. Um she is an enslaved person within the family.

[00:44:10]But we're we're given to understand that she is very much kind of a a well-treated enslaved woman within within Adysius's household and she absolutely she is overjoyed that Adysius has come home. Um however she kind of wants to shout it out. She's really really excited about this and Adysius is very keen that she doesn't give the game away and so he really is quite kind of stern with her and you know old woman you know you cannot give this up. You cannot tell anybody. So urlair is not even allowed to tell Penelopey at this point that Adysius is home. But she has joined the team Adysius alongside the swine um absolutely uh Felotius.

[00:44:44]Exactly. Tmicus so that the allies are growing. Um so does Adysius have a name that he says does he call himself anything as he's the beggar or does anyone even ask him his name?

[00:44:55]>> So he has multiple different stories and this is what we heard with the Cretton tales. So these are all of his sort of little cretton stories. uh in some of them uh he is Cret and in others he's blown off course and lands on Cree and so he has a different shifting identity each time which is very Odyssey and that his disguise is kind of never really pinned down it's not like he's going through this with one name you know he's different to everybody he talks to and of course the next person he talks to is in fact Penelopey >> Penelopey so this is like this is quite emotional this is a poignant part of the story where he in disguise >> is talking to his wife >> it really is and it's the first time that he's really kind of had a chat with her for 20 years and they're sitting down talking together. Um, now whether she recognizes him or not, that's left open and I think it's part of the beauty of the poetry that it is left open. It's up to you essentially to decide whether you think Penelopey recognized him or not. Uh, she makes several sort of koi remarks. One that I particularly like is, "Oh, Beggar, your hands look so similar to those of my husband."

[00:45:55]Um, so you know, whether she's sort of indicating that perhaps she does know that it's him. Uh, she mentions to him this dream that she's had that she had some geese, 20 geese that she really, really loved. And then an eagle came in and killed them all. And she asks him to interpret it. And he interprets that Adysius is coming home soon and he is going to slaughter the suitors.

[00:46:15]>> Oh. And slaughter is there's no it's been it's been signposted clear that it's not going to they're not going to be thrown out. They're going to be killed right here.

[00:46:25]>> Absolutely. And he's told Penelopey that that's happening >> and she's quite excited for that.

[00:46:28]>> Well, you know, she's she basically says she wishes that it were true, but she's not sure if she can believe anymore that Adysius is going to come home. And now this is the point where we're sort of hanging in uncertainty as the audience.

[00:46:40]We're not knowing. Well, does Penelopey actually even realize that she's sitting right opposite her husband? And at this kind of incredible point of narrative tension, she decides to set a contest for her hand in marriage. And right so but almost so it sounds like spurred on by this hope that Adysius will return.

[00:47:01]It's the creation of this contest. Why?

[00:47:03]>> Well, is it the hope that he will return or is it the fact that actually she's been faced up with Adysius giving her this prediction that Adysius will come home and she just absolutely just says, "Well, actually, no. I don't believe it.

[00:47:14]It can't happen. Maybe she's completely given up. We don't know." But it is rather brilliant that it happens at the time that Adysius is in the palace and he is right there ready to go and she sets up this contest >> because what is this contest?

[00:47:28]>> Well, we've had a lot of debate about this in scholarship about what exactly is happening, but what she does is she sets up a row of axes. Um, and in that row of axes, there are at some point some holes. Now, probably this is somewhere around either the socket or it's somewhere kind of in the center of the axe. We don't need to be too specific about it, but there are some holes. Um, at the same time, Adysius has a bow, a really kind of um old heroic style bow um that only he used to be able to string. You had to be really really strong to be able to string these these old bows. And so she's saying that whoever will be able to string his bow and will be able to shoot narrow through those axes, through those holes, will be her husband. And so the I guess the um ambiguity there is whether she's doing that to find if someone could be as good as Adysius or is it the hope that Adysius will be among them a as the Allah pro aka the prophecy and will be able to show it through the wielding of the bow itself.

[00:48:28]>> Exactly. So is she replacing him or is she giving him a chance to prove himself?

[00:48:31]>> Interesting. Okay. And do we get to that contest straight away or is there more mingling of old beggar Adysius with the suitors so we get even more of a bad vibe of the suitors?

[00:48:42]>> Yeah. So there's plenty of kind of bad vibe of the suitors to make sure that we know that they really earned it. They deserve what's coming. Yeah. No, absolutely. Um but yeah, so we we then sort of move up as the kind of you know narrative is kind of the narrative tension is ramping up. We move into that contest. Uh we've been positioned the suitors definitely the bad guys. We've got Adysius in place in the palace.

[00:49:02]We've got Penelopey setting up the contest of the bow. She's been told Adysius might come home and now everyone's waiting and watching what's going to happen next.

[00:49:09]>> Bringing back into the that kernels of truth of the real Bronze Age world in which this story is set. Do we have any idea like in the late Bronze Age time, this time the the masonians that archery contests or things like that were popular? That might be like the origins of the one of these great stories.

[00:49:27]>> Yeah. Well, there are several different theories about what might have been going on here. Um, one that's really interesting is that we do see um some kind of visual evidence from the period um of uh sort of axe heads similar to kind of what is being described here with holes uh with kind of uh archery contests at them. There is visual suggestion that that might be happening.

[00:49:46]So potentially there might be a kind of a kernel of truth there. Um at the same time we do see multiple different wall paintings of archery happening on uh walls, people going out on hunts and these kinds of things. So, you know, it's definitely something that is definitely not beyond uh doubt.

[00:50:01]>> And this is all happening in kind of the main area of the palace. Are we thinking the kind of the main meeting area where the students are all gathered?

[00:50:07]>> Yeah. Probably sort of the the courtyard that's at the heart of the palace. Yeah.

[00:50:10]>> And so, how does the contest go? Who steps up first?

[00:50:15]>> Yeah. Well, it's really interesting because of course the suitors are delighted by this because they think, you know, as we said, for them they think they're winning. Okay. Maybe their ambush on Tmicus didn't work, but you know, we've got we've got an in. We've got a chance. Uh and they definitely think they can do it. So, we've got, of course, Antinuis, the leader of the suitors, who has his go. He goes first, does he?

[00:50:34]>> I I'm pretty sure he goes first. Yeah.

[00:50:37]Um but he he definitely is uh keen to make sure that he can prove that he uh would be able to be a replacement for Adysius, but he cannot string the bow.

[00:50:46]So, he can't even do that kind of first step to be able to string the bow, let alone be able to shoot it through the axes. And then we get one after the other. We get all of the suitors kind of trying and failing and each of them just can't do it. Um, finally, and this is interesting, Tmacus wants to have a go.

[00:51:01]Um, so Penelope and Adysius's son just on the edge of manhood. And it's really interesting because here we're seeing a replacement for Adysius in a different way. We're seeing a son who could potentially replace the father. And he steps up and he almost strings the bow.

[00:51:16]>> Oh, interesting.

[00:51:17]>> Yeah. And it's a nod from Adysius that stops him from doing it. And is it also this idea of tomicus? Of course, he's not doing it to marry his mom. It's to protect his mom kind of.

[00:51:27]>> Exactly. And to prove himself as sort of the natural successor to Adysius, the next king. Exactly. Exactly. Um so I think it's, you know, definitely a sign that Tmicus is on the edge of that point where he would be able to stand side by side with Adysius and and claim the kingship. Of course, the fact that he doesn't do it then sets the scene for Adysius disguised as the beggar to step in and say, "Well, can I have a go?"

[00:51:50]>> But, sorry, quick because that also makes sense because earlier in the story, he's conversing with Athena.

[00:51:55]She's saying, "Are you going to be quite like I see good things in you for the future like there is potential here."

[00:52:02]So, once again, there's that that that >> that motive that portrayal continues that there is that Adysius like he is going to reach the heights of his father, but not quite now. It's still Adysius's time to shine.

[00:52:13]>> It is indeed. And we've had moments also when he met with Helen, Helen of Sparta, Helen of Troy, where she said, "You look so like Adysius, you know." So, he's definitely being seen as following in Adysius's footsteps. However, in order to kind of get on dad's side, there is something that he's got to do, and that's pretty horrific, which is the slaughter of the suitors, and he takes part in that. And it's almost his initiation into manhood into the kingship of Ithaca is if you're prepared to do this then you know this is what you've got to do.

[00:52:41]>> All right. So Tmicus just doesn't string the bow.

[00:52:46]>> And who steps up next?

[00:52:48]>> An old beggar.

[00:52:49]>> An old beggar.

[00:52:50]>> And everyone's surprised. The suitors are sneering. Um nobody thinks that an old beggar would have a chance of stringing the bow, let alone being Penelopey's husband. However, he persuades them to let him have a go.

[00:53:04]Tmicus steps forward, says, "No, let him have it." And he reaches for the bow and he strings it like a bard stringing a liar. He sounds the string of the bow and it sings out like a bird. An extraordinary, beautiful moment where Adysius the bard has now become Adysius the archer. He picks up the bow and as he does so, the disguise sheds from him.

[00:53:28]He becomes Adysius once more and he shoots the arrow through the axes and the slaughter of the suitors begins.

[00:53:34]>> Is Antinuis the first to get the bullet or should I say the arrow?

[00:53:37]>> Uh he is certainly one of the first. I can't remember if he's the very first but he is certainly the person that Adysius has his sights set on. Um and at this point we then go straight into the action of um needing to get rid of the suitors.

[00:53:52]>> And and as morbid as it is, describe the slaughter. What do we presume for this part of the Odyssey, it's not just and then he killed them all. I'm sure there's a bit more of it.

[00:54:05]I mean, you know, these are epics that were born in kind of glorifying warfare and um preserving the memory of heroes who uh did some really bloody deeds. And I mean, if anyone's read any of the Iliad, you know, you'll know that there's plenty of kind of, you know, brains and blood and guts. Um so, absolutely, we're given quite a lot of detail. So what Adysius does is remember he's already got Uraklair on his side.

[00:54:26]Uraclair is an important player in this because she uh as well as being the kind of enslaved nurse, she's also the housekeeper. She's got the keys to the storms. So she's able to lock the doors.

[00:54:37]So what she does is she's taken out all of the weapons from the hall.

[00:54:41]>> Ah, >> and she then locks the doors. So the women are out, the men are in, and they cannot escape. And what ensues is essentially a blood bath where the suitors completely unarmed are just um completely annihilated by >> I can imagine they're quite they're quite drunk. They're quite drunk as well.

[00:54:58]>> They're drunk. Uh you know they've been also kind of lazing around in Ithaca for 20 years. They're not sort of battleh hardened war veterans like Adysius is.

[00:55:06]Um he's also got Tmicus on his side.

[00:55:08]He's got Yus. He's Felius. And so they all just kind of have at it. And by the end it's just is it blood and guts everywhere? The dead >> the hall is running with blood. And in fact uh it's one of the kind of really awful scenes is that that needs to be cleared up. And who is going to clear it up but the enslaved women >> and these are the women who have been sleeping with or raped by the suitors.

[00:55:33]And they then have to clean up the bodies. They have to scrub the blood from the halls. They have to get the smell out. And after that, Adysius decides that it's time for Tmacus to step up to be a man. And he has to punish them.

[00:55:46]>> What's the punishment?

[00:55:47]>> He takes 12 of the enslaved women who were the ones who were deemed to have been traitors with the suitors and they are strung up by their neck on nooes across the courtyard and killed.

[00:56:02]>> Wow. That's the part of the story that you don't well someone who's been told the Odyssey will probably not quite remember as much as the suitors that that grim after note and that's Tmicus and Tmicus >> you and says you've got to do that.

[00:56:18]>> Exactly. There is there is to me an element here of hazing of you know if you're going to be the king you've got to be ready to do these kinds of things.

[00:56:27]This is Adysius's vision of kingship.

[00:56:29]This is what getting home means. I think we really tend to forget that. We tend to think it's a kind of romantic uh arrival home and you know the reunion with Penelope. Before that happens, there is an absolute bloodbath and there is the hanging of 12 enslaved women.

[00:56:44]>> Is anyone spared?

[00:56:45]>> So there are some people who are spared.

[00:56:47]You've got for instance and Floydius who were on the right side. So they're they're all fine. Um there are some of the suitors who try and beg for mercy.

[00:56:55]Um and not even them uh get away. So, it's uh it is a really kind of thorough cleansing almost a kind of how can we return to what it looked like before Adysius left for the Trojan War. How can we get them all out of our house? I think the scrubbing of the the sort of floors of the palace is very symbolic about the memory of them, everything out. And is it Penelopey then sees her beloved Adysius after so many years?

[00:57:22]He's still got a lot of explaining to do, let's be fair. Um, in the middle of this blood soaked room, does she come running down towards him?

[00:57:30]>> Well, she doesn't. So, it's, you know, Penelopey we've talked about, she's sort of just as clever as her husband, just as canny. And so, she wants to take her time to work out who this potentially murderous new suitor is. Um, Eura comes running up and says, "Odisyscus is home.

[00:57:46]You know, you you should be so overjoyed." And she says, "Well, you know, I've got to make sure." And she comes down and she gives Adysius a test of her own. So, we've had already kind of the contest of the bow, but now she's got her own little test to make sure that this really is Adysius.

[00:58:01]>> And what's that test?

[00:58:02]>> Well, the test is around their marital bed. So the story is that Adysius before he went to Troy made a bed for the husband and wife in an olive tree that grew through the palace of Ithaca and that he hollowed out part of the trunk and made a bed for them. And what Penelopey does is that she says uh to Adysius uh well you know we've made up a bed for you and uh moved the bed out of my room uh for you. And he is outraged and he says who moved my bed? Now, obviously, this is a symbol of the fact that Penelopey might have been unfaithful because if that bed that he made for them, for their marital union could have been moved, maybe she's been unfaithful. And she realizes at the point where he gets outraged that the bed could have been moved and he tells the story of the olive tree, she realizes it's him.

[00:58:48]>> I don't I don't really feel he's got a leg to stand on on that. But, um, is that a is that left um ambiguous? Is that not revealed whether she was faithful or not or >> It's left ambiguous. Yeah. So what they do and there's a sort of moment then of reunion where they get together in that bed that he made for them and they tell their stories of everything that happened and interestingly Adysius tells her about Calypso and Cersei but he doesn't tell her about Nasaka. So he misses some things out.

[00:59:16]>> She's the princess of the the I'm not going to say the word again of the fatian. Yes. Okay. He is. And she's the one, interestingly, who is potentially the nearest miss in terms of him not only being unfaithful, but potentially settling down because they have this kind of sort of weird initiated courtship almost. Um, and he doesn't tell her about Nasikar. So, there's some interesting sort of storytelling going on. I mean, Adysius cannot stop telling his stories, can he?

[00:59:42]>> There you go. And you think that's the end of the Odyssey, but but it's not quite because >> these suitors, I know I haven't got much time, so I can't do too much, but but these suitors, of course, they're still the most prominent figures in the land and around. It's not just them. They have their own families. They have their own supporters.

[01:00:00]>> They do.

[01:00:01]>> And so slaughtering all these people, it's going to have repercussions. And isn't that the case with Adysius?

[01:00:08]>> It is. So, you might expect the Odyssey to end on this kind of happy note, you know, reunion, marriage bed, re reunited, all of that. But it actually ends on a really kind of troubled, problematic note where essentially what we're seeing is almost a civil war about to break out in Ithaca because, as you say, you know, he has just murdered 108 of the, you know, young men from the island and the surrounding islands. Um, they have their families, they have their supporters, all of them come rushing in and saying, "Well, what the what the hell are you doing just killing all of our men folk?" let alone of course the fact that all of the Ithacans that he took on the ship with him to Troy have not come back.

[01:00:42]>> There's other that there's also that part. Where are these soldiers you took to Troy?

[01:00:45]>> Yeah. So they're really gearing up for um a kind of war uh that's about to break out on Ithaca. Um and at that point as Adysius is rallying as Tmicus is rallying his aged father Leertes. At that point Athena uh the goddess who we have seen kind of time and time again coming to almost pull the o the narrative of the Odyssey back into order. she comes down again and she stops the fighting. So, we've got a sort of temporary god induced pause. Whether that would be enough to stop all of the kind of uh conclusions sort of unraveling from what Adysius has done, um I'm not sure whether that would be, but at least for some moment at the end of the Odyssey, things hang in the balance.

[01:01:26]>> Things hang in the balance. But Penelope and Adysius are back together again. And obviously we talked earlier about Agamenon and Claytonestra and how that is not a marriage made in heaven. Quite frankly it's the opposite.

[01:01:39]>> It's a nice contrast though, isn't it?

[01:01:41]One of actually kind of >> a marriage that works >> between a hero and this and a queen um compared to the compared to the the Agamemnon and Clystra and so on. But that is the end of the Odyssey. That's that's the return the homecoming.

[01:01:57]>> That slightly troubled note at the end.

[01:02:00]Well, the troubled note and also the fact that Adysius halfway through the Odyssey was given a prophecy that he was going to go on another voyage again which he tells Penelopey when they have their little chat in the night. He says, you know, by the way, this isn't the end. I'm going to be off on another journey. So, not only have we kind of had a very troubled closure, but also we've got the opening to a future journey.

[01:02:18]>> And do we know what that journey will be? Is it revealed in any other Greek sources what actually was supposed to happen after the end of the Odyssey?

[01:02:25]>> We do. Yeah. So, well, first of all, we know because Tyrese gives him the prophecy of what he's going to do. So, he says he's going to wander um with an ore on his back until he gets to a place where men do not know the sea and they think that the ore on his back is a winnowing fan. Uh so, that's kind of the first prediction. He's going to go on this long land voyage. But the other thing that happens which is really interesting is how Adysius dies. And this is on another uh journey that he goes on. And he ends up accidentally meeting the son that he and Cersei had together. And that son doesn't realize that this is his father. Uh unwittingly wounds him with a poison tipped spear.

[01:03:04]And that is how Adysius dies.

[01:03:06]>> I didn't know that at all. Interesting.

[01:03:09]>> Telegus is the name of the son. And this was the subject of another epic that came after called the Teleg. So, so we think of the Iliad and the Odyssey, but the real the real the real, you know, the hard nuts, the the people who know it the best. No. Well, actually, it's the Iliad, the Odyssey, and then the Telegraph.

[01:03:26]>> Well, absolutely. And all of the others, the Ethiop, the Ilopes, the Cypria.

[01:03:29]There are so many that we just don't have. We've got two of them. There was a whole collection of these epics.

[01:03:34]>> Gosh. So, why of all of them today? Of course, we've got coming very soon, maybe now released, um, we have Christopher Nolan's epic, The Odyssey.

[01:03:45]Why do you think of all the stories, The Odyssey, it resonates so much with us even today?

[01:03:51]>> The Odyssey is a story you can take on many different levels. You can take it on the kind of surface level of kind of swashbuckling adventure, um, the fantastical journey, sort of the piratical nature of what he does. On that level, it's just pure enjoyment.

[01:04:07]But I think on a deeper level, there are themes here that resonate with us as humans. Themes about what it means to be someone who acts within society, within their community, whether that is someone who's trying to uphold them and get the men home as Adysius does or someone who ends up ultimately destroying them, what it is to be within a family, what it is to be within a home. These are themes that I think resonate with us all. and Adysius what he ultimately is trying to do is he is trying to get back into human society make his way in the world and if that's not something that all of us understand that journey to try and understand who you are how you make your way in the world I think the Odyssey resonates with us all >> it's also how to be respectful when you're in the house of someone else how to treat your guests as well I guess are those other big things need >> absolutely thinking about kind of the right codes of conduct with others and that that idea of zenia that idea of hospitality guest friendship those ties that knit us together as a community of humans and how fragile they are as well, how easily they break apart, I think is also a warning, right? That that sort of very troubled ending of the Odyssey is also a sense that um we need to take care and we need to think these things through. And the Odyssey is a beautiful prism to think through those kinds of issues.

[01:05:21]>> Emily, this has been truly epic. 24 books of the Odyssey covered from start to finish. Uh what a story. couldn't have asked for a better guest to talk through it with as well. Last but certainly not least, you have written a book recently which covers several really important figures in the story of the Odyssey and B their links not just to the real world but their importance in the mythology.

[01:05:46]>> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm really passionate about thinking about why these stories matter now and and why we should keep turning back to them and and my book Mythica is about the real women who stand behind these myths and who might have made up the kind of the tapestry of the late Bronze Age world who might have kind of prefigured figures like Helen, like Penelopey, like Nikka, Ariti, who we've talked about, Calypso, Cersei. What was the reality of the world behind that? And how did they sort of trickle down into the legends that ended up making Homer's Odyssey?

[01:06:16]So, you know, it's something that what's fascinating about it is that yes, there was a history that was standing behind the Odyssey, but it's also something that we've been lost because we haven't been thinking and talking about the women. And what we can do now because we're interested in those stories again because, you know, we're looking back, we're turning back constantly to these tales, we can start to ask new questions. And for me, that's what's so exciting about the Odyssey. You can keep coming back and asking more.

[01:06:39]>> Fantastic. And of course, this isn't the last time that I'm going to see you because next we're going to watch Christopher Nolan's Odyssey and we're going to record one more episode, our thoughts about it. Are you excited?

[01:06:53]>> I am really looking forward to it. I am also looking forward to dissecting it together.

[01:06:57]>> Emily, it just goes me to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

[01:07:01]>> Thank you so much for having me.