The Forgotten Protestant View of Church & State

Added: 2026-05-14

[00:00:00]Kings have jailed pastors, but kings have also built cathedrals. Emperors have silenced preachers, but emperors have also convened councils. History proves that the state and the church have always been tangled and intertwined together. But the question we're addressing today is, is that a catastrophe that we are to escape or is this an arrangement to recover? And what we think is the answer that we give to this is a distin is based on a distinction that many Christians have probably not thought of or even engaged in much depth.

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[00:01:17]>> This is the magistrate. I'm Josh Howard.

[00:01:19]I'm joined by James Bear. James, good to see you, brother.

[00:01:22]>> Good to see you. I'm excited about this one.

[00:01:24]>> This is going to be fun. Uh The Magistrate is part of the EM network. I encourage you if you're not familiar with the EM network, um we have several shows that post on a dailyhourly basis.

[00:01:34]I think even at this point, we do have several great contributors. Please check those out. Several guys that overlap significantly with the work that we do here at uh the magistrate. Before we jump in, I do want to mention our uh one of our sponsors, Rock Wall Bibles. And I will hold up my Bible that is getting a bit tattered already. So, now I can do the humble brag of preachers and show how tattered my Bible is from from great use. But Rockall Bibles makes fantastic Bibles. These are heirloom quality Bibles. Um, they do rebinds. You can get a fresh bind uh like I did. They have several different leathers that you can choose from, including one that I did not know existed. Great uh customer service. You can contact Adam. It's a Christian run, familyrun business. They will be a massive help to you. And one of the things that I constantly mention because it's been a benefit to my family is if you have a father uh who is quite literally a father in the faith to you um or if you have a mother or any sort of relative who has one of those old tattered worn Bibles that is so dear to them, consider a rebind for them. It's a it's a tremendous gift. It's something that you can pass down and it speaks volumes to the the heritage of faith that we can pass down to those after us.

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[00:02:47]you get $10 off your order and we also uh let Adam know that we're out here trying to spread the good word. But today the the topic that we're discussing again we're we're kind of looking at the intertwining of church and state. Um we're talking about the magistrate and uh what relationship if any he ought to hold with the church.

[00:03:06]And typically I think this is given kind of a a bifurcated dualistic view. You either you either want the governor in your pulpit telling you what good doctrine entails or you say we have nothing to do with the state. If anybody mentions anything even sniffing of politics they must have been given over to the spirit of the age. That's not typically the way that the reformed faith has engaged these things.

[00:03:26]Obviously it's a bit more nuanced. The thing we're going to talk about today is just two Latin phrases and the interplay between the two and that is insacra and circa sacra. Um the the quick and easy definition is obviously in sacra is relating to authority or uh modes of authority in sacred things in sacra typically this is referring to the actual work and duties of the church. If you think of the church as a institution of word and sacrament this has to do with those sort of things. Circa sacra is things around the sacred things. the things that relate to them um still have an interplay with them and yet they're things that are kind of tangentially related to it. So when we look at the civil magistrate, we're asking can they or should they exercise authority in relation to matters of religion, matters of the faith. Um and how should that be related to the church in in Sacra or circa Sacra? James, any initial thoughts on this kind of admittedly deep theme, but one that we do want to introduce today on the magistrate? I think the first thing I want to say which when people start to understand this distinction it's very important is you must distinguish between when you're understanding these terms whether you're doing history or theology >> or political philosophy even too often people will start defining the term by how it was understood or used at different points in time that's very important I mean definitely But do not confuse that with understanding what the thing is in itself.

[00:05:04]Right? And I think that's what we want to do today is really understand the substance of this reality of the difference between insacra authority and circa sacra authority. Um and that's going to help you figure out how to do a theology you can use today rather than simply saying this is what so and so thought back then. Uh so yeah, that's how I kick it off. I think it's critical uh to to really understanding um how to do good political theology today.

[00:05:29]>> Excellent. Side note, yeah, just building on what James said, side note, because we just had this conversation in a sort of local church context that we're navigating, is when you read uh reformed authors, again, we are kind of broadly associated with sort of a retrieval movement. And I say broadly because again, I don't consider myself a retrievalist. And yet, I think all of us are invested in retrieval of some sort of fashion. We want to be reading those who have come before us. I have no desire to reinvent the faith once delivered to the saints. So when we read uh those who have come before us, reading Calvin, this is my example from this week, reading Calvin and reading Turin requires you understanding the way Turretin and Calvin use certain words and certain phrases. And that often entails reading the entirety of the context. Uh you have to read the sources, add fontest, go back to the sources and understand what they're getting at with those. We we live unfortunately in a day of kind of quote mining and and hot takes that are given online. It's good for Twitter. It's not great for theology, but that's that's a rant for another day. But returning back to insacra circus sacra, let me give this let me throw this one out and then I'm going to pump back to you James for thoughts. When we talk about in sacra again, this is um relating to things in worship in religion. What this is discussing is primarily the internal function and uh form of the church itself. So if you were to think about this sort of thing, what affairs are in Sakura internally in the the form and function of the church. Um there is number one doctrine. What is true doctrine? Um what how do we arrive at what is good doctrine and what is heresies? Those sort of things. Worship.

[00:07:03]How do we worship? Um how in what way do we gather for worship? James and I are from a tradition in which we respect the regulative principle of worship. But I think any Christian popping in on this channel can understand there's lots of different ways that Christians worship.

[00:07:16]Some, you know, more acceptable than others, I think, with invariance. Um, but still doctrine, worship. You could also also look at discipline. Who disciplines the members of the church?

[00:07:25]This is an insacra conversation. How do we exercise the keys of the kingdom? How do we discipline those who have who have fallen by the wayside specifically with sin? How do we exercise the sacraments and administer the sacraments? Or if or if your tradition perhaps, you know, uses the word ordinances, that's fine.

[00:07:41]The Lord's supper. Um coming to the table for the Lord's supper, being baptized. Again, whatever tradition you come from, this is a sacramental function of the church. And then finally, ecclesial governance. How is the church to be structured? Uh elders, deacons, whether you have a session or a consist, whatever that might look like within your church or just or just a pastor team or whatever it looks like.

[00:08:02]How are those things to be to be done?

[00:08:05]Those are insacra distinctions. Um, typically within especially again within reformed theology, Protestant theology, we have respected and maintained the insacra matters to be things that are functions of the church. And James, I see you twitching a little bit. I don't know if you want to jump in on that one before I get to the circus sacra because I know there's a lot here to cover and you with this stuff.

[00:08:26]>> Yeah. So the most important thing to understand about um circus uh in sacra is that they are not things that are to be determined. They're things that ought to be proclaimed.

[00:08:37]>> Okay?

[00:08:37]>> It's a declarative function of the church.

[00:08:40]>> Declarative function, right? They are not thing, you know, we don't get to decide what the baptismal formula is, right? Or who has a right to receive it.

[00:08:47]We don't get to decide um the preaching of the word. This is something that's determined by the word itself. We don't get to decide um you know whether or not we ought to use um both elements you know bread and wine or one element or a third element right uh the the stuff that is properly under the authority of the church is under the authority of the church because it's under the authority of the word >> right >> and the church's authority is only declaration ministerial declarative spiritual right um it's not things that get to be decided this way or that way no It's one way. It's the way that the word has determined and then we're proclaiming it.

[00:09:28]>> Good word is what separates that's what makes insacra authority unique and the reason why the magistrate does not have it.

[00:09:35]>> Good word. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:38]>> Yep. Yeah. So if you were to be um if you were to be looking at the Westminster confession for example which James and I subscribe to the Westminster confession starts off chapter one it's of the scriptures and that's one of the that's one of the uh the points of emphasis within that confession is what we do is declarative of what God has said we God speaks we follow so okay good so in sacra on the one hand and and again I hope I hope our listeners are catching on what I'm not trying to do is draw two parallels in fact I thought about doing a graphic for this And I was I was so afraid it would be confusing because it's not exactly two spheres that are unrelated. It's also not two spheres that are overlapping. Right.

[00:10:14]We'll we'll get into a little bit of that. It's a way though of thinking through these authorities, how the authorities to play in.

[00:10:20]>> Yeah. It's in and around religion.

[00:10:22]>> Right.

[00:10:22]>> Right. What is it in it or around it? So circa sacra is is something that again I think I think for many especially protestants uh well I say that many Christians especially in the United States but really across the western world and across across the the globe um during the the years after 2020 many people including myself who were kind of unprepared for some of the challenges that came along many of us were doing heavy lifting with atrophied muscles that we should have had previously so we recognized that but a lot of the things we were dealing with was insacra circaac circusacr distinctions circa sacra just to give again sort of a brief definition this is relating to authority that is exercised around or you could say in relation to matters of religion it's not disconnected from religion it's sort of around the church house and in relation to the church house so here you could think about the magistrate's authority one which is external again that means outside the church it's a civil function but you can see that relating to the matters of religion and Yet outside of the matters of insacral religion, you can see this with things like suppressing blasphemy >> which again has been done in many settings including in the United States in many different regards. Um you could think of protecting the church's freedom.

[00:11:40]>> By what by what regard do we appeal to the magistrate to protect the church's freedom? This is a circus sacrifunction of the magistrate >> preventing heresy to flourish and become a public public civil menace in the process. Now, I know that one's a bit a bit on the nose and a bit controversial in our day and age, but again, historically within our country, this has been a function of circus acra. And you could also just generally say ordering the civil life. I'll use I'll use James' James's phrase in such a way as to promote the flourishing of the true religion, which again is not new to James. This is this is something our forebears have have spoken of. But that's a function of the circus sacra functioning of the magistrate providing for such a way as that the true religion can flourish. Um now you can find different emphases of these across religions but you can find this sort of dynamic again across the protestant spectrum but >> right >> James f fill us in thoughts.

[00:12:35]>> Nope. Uh I think that you're absolutely nailing it. Um, I want to start as we unpack circus Sakura because all of us agree the magistrate has no authority in Sakura. He can't um decide for example to change the apostles creed. He can't do any of that, right? Uh the closest thing that he can do is to this is the closest the magistrate gets to insacra authority. It's when he calls a church council to determine a particularly troublesome issue. Okay? So think about Constantine.

[00:13:12]He does not have authority in Sakra. He cannot write or determine the Nian creed. Okay? What he can do is call the council of Nika, preside over it, make sure everything goes well as the ministers then proclaim the word of God as it relates to the issue of the deity of Christ.

[00:13:32]>> Right.

[00:13:32]>> Right. So that is a perfect example. The ministers are exerting authority in sacra in sacred things by writing the um nian creed. uh Constantine is exerting authority kirk or circa sacra by calling it and convening it and saying hey this is a real issue right now I need you guys to to settle it right >> right right >> that that's the classic you could almost say in a way the first and greatest right example of insacra verse circus sacra but let's take a step back so that we can really understand >> could I point out by the way before you jump in on that one put don't don't don't lose your train of thought there but but yeah I I think what you're saying is so important because This this has come up in conversations about the nyine creed from circles that I've been in. For example, the SBC quite famously in recent years sort of um weighed whether or not to adopt the nine creed as an official creed. Um our church confesses the nyine creed on a weekly basis. Many other churches do as well.

[00:14:30]But this is this is a conversation that comes up whether people are familiar with the the definitions of circus sacra in sacra. They're they're trying to reason through is it a good thing and a proper thing for that council to have been called in the first place and can we trust what was confessed from it? And I think this this reasoning helps us as you just kind of laid out understand they're declaratively confessing what scripture says within the context of insacra even though circus sacra has has uh interplayed with that as the as the emperor has called this council together. So I think that's a great that's a great example to bring up.

[00:15:04]>> Yeah. And notice, right, the the bishops, right, the pastors, uh, that are at the council of Nika, they're not determining the nature of the trinity.

[00:15:13]>> Exactly.

[00:15:14]>> They're proclaiming the nature of the trinity. Right. This is what the scriptures, this is the faith once, you know, delivered to all the saints.

[00:15:22]>> Absolutely.

[00:15:23]>> But there is no church council that decides you're a papist if that's what you think. Right. This is the early church talks this way. Protestants talk this way. Roman Catholics don't the church does not determine anything right who was there a determination that was made around you know involving the nian creed yes that there would be a council that it would happen in the city of Nika that it would happen in 325 right those are all things that are actually determined decided all of that was determined and decided by Constantine by the magistrate so um the difference between Insacra and circusac Sacra is proclaiming verse determining. Okay. If it needs to be determined, it's probably probably circa sacra and in some sense in some way under the authority of persuasion of the magistrate. Um does that does that make sense?

[00:16:17]>> Oh yeah. No, that's perfect.

[00:16:18]>> Generally generally speaking right now the confession also says of course also the magistrate um doesn't this isn't in all cases. Okay. The church does have some the magistrate has no insacra authority. The church depending on the context does have some circus sacra authority, >> right?

[00:16:37]>> Okay. So, for example, when a session gets together and says we're going to have worship at 11:00 a.m. instead of 10:30 a.m. on Sunday, that is actually the session exerting some circus sacra authority. So, they're not perfect parallels here. Okay. Um, you know, the general assembly of the PCA, right? Is it going to happen right in June this year? That is a circus sacra decision, right? It's going to happen in Nashville. Okay. Um the church does have the ability to do that.

[00:17:05]>> Um but it doesn't go the opposite direction. The magistrate doesn't have sacral authority, >> right?

[00:17:09]>> I think to really understand this distinction what it is at its core, you have to look under the hood of what's going on. And um Turin's always great for this. So I think we both independently went and refreshed ourselves uh on Turin on this distinction. It it's always a good day to go back into the uh institutes of Olympic theology.

[00:17:31]>> That's right. And uh he gets under under the hood in a really helpful way. He says uh the first proposition in this uh discussion is this. He says that there's a multiple right concerning sacred things that belongs to the magistrate.

[00:17:47]So concerning is a one way to translate you know around or circa. So, and he says, here's how we know that's the case. First of all, from divine command.

[00:17:58]He points out in the scriptures that the magistrate is directly charged with upholding the divine law, the ten commandments, all 10. That's what Cal that's what Calvin says. That's what all the major reformers say. Turretton's no different. Um, and he says because of this, the magistrate has to care for the piety and worship of God. We still see this in the American version of the Westminster confession. Right? This is chapter 23 section 2. The Americans don't change this. It charges the magistrate with the duty to maintain piety. Okay, that's one divine command.

[00:18:35]Next, he says we see that the magistrate is should be concerned and have care for religious things because of the titles that are given to the magistrate in scripture. So, famously, he's called a nursing father in Isaiah 49:23.

[00:18:49]The Americans move that language from the scripture proof, which is where the divines had that passage, up into the body of the confession itself and referred to the magistrate as a nursing father. That is a circa sacra title. Um, Turton also points out there's passages in Isaiah where magistrates are actually referred to as pastors, right? Not that they actually are pastors, but they have a concern for sacred things. Obviously, they're referred to as fathers multiple times. uh he even thinks this is a common um interpretation of I think it's Psalm 82 that the gods that are referred there are magistrates that the Bible actually refers to magistrates as gods and he says the reason is is that they bear the mark of God's power. They're referred to as gods not because they are gods but because they are in a sense God on earth right they are God's avenger. This is Romans 13 doing the work of God in that respect. And then he says this says now I've given you some scriptural reasons, titles, direct divine command. There's some reason like logical argumentation that would lead us to believe and prove in fact that the magistrate has a care of religion. Um circa sacra he says this first of all the magistrate's number one job is to care for the safety of the state.

[00:20:10]Number one job. And what he says is, "How can you possibly ensure that the state is safe if you don't care about its religion?"

[00:20:17]>> And who does he cite for that point?

[00:20:20]Aristotle.

[00:20:21]Listen, everyone thinks this. Even the pagans agree. You can't have a safe state without caring for the religion of the state. That's what binds the people together is their religion. It's where they find their national identity. It's a n religion is a national security issue. And this is just the western tradition, right? which is which is also it's obviously it's reflected you know chapter 23 of the confession right but when they they uh wrote the confession they refer to three principles of piety justice and peace how is the magistrate to maintain piety justice and peace it's by understanding and maintaining the true religion >> exactly right he says then the next one is obviously the job of the magistrate is to procure good things for the people that's the job of the magistrate now this is really we need to think about this for a second if you go and the larger catechism on what it what the commandment thou shalt not steal means.

[00:21:14]It doesn't just mean you don't take things from your neighbor. What it means is that you also seek to increase the prosperity of their estate.

[00:21:25]>> So obviously the opposite of taking away from your neighbor is to give to your neighbor, will good things, procure good things for your neighbor. Guess what?

[00:21:34]The ten commandments binds the magistrate.

[00:21:38]So that means if the magistrate is going to not steal, he has to procure good things for his neighbors. All of us have an eighth commandment duty.

[00:21:46]>> Even the magistrate, like I said. So when you think about the fact that you're not supposed to steal, you're supposed to actually give. That binds the magistrate, too. And it's actually the eighth commandment that drives our evangelism. We want to give good things to our neighbor. What's better than telling them about Jesus, giving them the gospel? Um, Westminster Larger Catechism 99 makes it clear that in our place and station, so if you're a father, if you're a boss, if you're a magistrate, you actually need to follow these commandments and help the people under you to follow these commandments too.

[00:22:17]>> Correct?

[00:22:17]>> So then the last one he says is governments are the guest chambers of the church.

[00:22:22]>> Right?

[00:22:23]>> The bride of Jesus is in your guest chamber. king, ruler, senator, congressman, uh, judge, president, they're in your guest chamber. You actually have to care for the bride of Jesus that lives within your realm. And then Turin says this, therefore, the magistrate ought to see that it's well with her. Okay, these are the reasons why they have care for religion. In other words, they can't just say, "I'm going to take care of civil stuff, second table of the law, and um and hope through divine providence somehow the church ends up okay." Okay. They need to have a direct concern, right? All right. There you go.

[00:23:03]Thoughts on that?

[00:23:04]>> If you were to think it it it's it number one, it's making me think of if if you were to think within the reformed tradition, but specifically, again, obviously James and I are speaking as Presbyterians. If you're to think within the Presbyterian tradition, which again I think many would have sympathy with this, but there's something called the establishment principle.

[00:23:24]>> Yeah.

[00:23:25]>> When you think of the establishment principle in the Westminster standards, um this circa sacra function, this around matters of religion function, what it protects is that the state has a vested interest in true religion but not authority over it. That's what again Turin is keying in on and explicating in greater depth. That's what the larger catechism is walking through at great depth is that the state has a vested integral interest uh in the promulgation and preservation of true religion, but it doesn't have a direct authority over it. Um that's that's important because you can see this with things. Um and I've gotten I've got an example. I'm not sure if this is the best time to throw it in there. I don't know if you had do you have anything else you're about to run on to or do you want to throw this illustration in?

[00:24:10]>> Let me throw it in. It may be helpful, it may not. It may derail us. Feel free to tell me to table it. It was making me think um when you think of, for example, uh you know, many of us from from the south um remember, you know, sort of blue laws and even after blue laws weren't in effect. You you had this sort of kind of kind of cultural preservation of blue laws, everything was closed on Sundays, whether there was a law there to to have it or not. But if you're to think of one of those things, if a business, let's just say there was a blue law in effect, um, which means that the magistrate uh, recognized that the declarative function of the church said the Sabbath is to be kept as holy unto God. The magistrate then acting circus sacra, let's just assume they're all working as they ought, right? There's obviously abuses that happen. We we understand that, but let's just assume the state is functioning as it ought. If someone was to violate the Sabbath, open up their business on Sunday, compel their workers to come in, that sort of thing, when there's a law against it.

[00:25:07]What the state is doing is not discipline over the Christian or the church member qua church member. In other words, they're not disciplining the church member, taking the keys of the kingdom and disciplining them. That function still belongs to the church, the pastor, the elders, the session, whatever your setup is. They would then have the keys of the kingdom to then go and address the sin within their midst and address that church member. That's church discipline. It's in sacra. What the state is doing is honoring that declarative function by saying you've actually violated a civil law for the preservation and promulgation of true religion. We're going to give you a fine and we're going to ask you to not open your store on Sundays. This is where you see the interplay between the two.

[00:25:46]>> Yep. Yep. That's exactly right. Now, of course, then it it opens up a whole can of worms like what exactly can the magistrate do? Like what he what can't he do? Obviously, we look in early America if we're only going to do what they did in early America, which first of all is a little risky because you got to remember there's lots of things the government didn't have to do because the people did it of their own free will.

[00:26:07]>> Yeah.

[00:26:09]>> Um but you know, we can think of a few examples, right? They have blasphemy laws. Okay. That's circus sacra, right?

[00:26:15]Uh they had Sabbath laws. That's circa Sacra, right? So, we we see this already happening in early America. The early American Presbyterians weren't trying to deny the magistrate all this authority, but there's lots of stuff that some of them thought it was imprudent for the magistrate to do. Uh some of them thought that um uh even if it was prudent, it was uh let's say not the right time or place. [laughter] And you know, there's others who just on principle, you know, think like there's stuff the magistrate just can't do anymore. Um, and most of this has to do with like the the magistrate cannot tell you that your denomination of Christianity is illegal to practice, right? Can't do that. Um, but it's important to understand how that thought developed um, historically. And I think a great a lot of people what they'll do is they'll read someone let's say uh like one of the southern Presbyterians in the 1800s they're very disestablishment most of them right uh and then they'll read someone like Calvin and they'll say look at this huge difference right but you got to understand the bridging figures and events there that allowed that thought to develop and one of them is going to be the act of toleration right that happens in England where basically there's a preferred church but then they allow denters right to have their own churches not perfectly but they allow it. And then uh theory starts to develop because you get all these states that have different types of Protestants in them and many of them different types of Catholics and of course Jewish people as well. And a great book to read uh on this is going to be a guy named Vatel on the law of nations. This was an assigned text at West Point for like over a hundred years very long time. Um and he walks through how the magistrate should act when he has diverse religions uh within the same realm. And when he says religions that would be like Baptist, Presbyterian, two different religions, right? So you got to understand how the word religion is being used there. Um and he basically talks about this is when you need to tolerate. This is when you uh you can afford to be a little more firm. And the Presbyterians read Vetel. They read this natural law tradition with Pufindorf and other guys as well and they start understanding that circumstantially the magistrate may have a duty to do different types of things but I want to reduce this down to one thing that all of us should agree on and in my opinion it's the most important and it's this the magistrate the most powerful one of the the second most powerful thing and some would argue the most powerful thing that magistrate has is something called the power of fashion.

[00:29:03]The power of fashion. Here's what it means. If the president does something, it's kind of cool.

[00:29:10]The influence >> the memes, by the way, from that phrase.

[00:29:14]Endless possibilities, but go ahead.

[00:29:16]>> Yeah, exactly. That's that's literally the idea that people follow their rulers for good or ill. Okay. They just do it.

[00:29:24]The example of the ruler has incredible power over the people. Uh it shapes their dispositions in massive massive ways. It's really hard to understate how powerful the power of fashion is. The example they set um the things that they countenance that means favor. The things that they discountenance that means disfavor. I mean it is like it's a 600lb gorilla in the rowboat. Okay.

[00:29:53]>> [snorts] >> I want you to think about this. I'm just going to leave people with this thought.

[00:29:57]I want you to go through a turret section on the things that the magistrate must do uh in order to rightly use his circa sacra authority. And I want you to ask yourself this, could a ruler accomplish these goals merely with the power of fashion?

[00:30:18]And you will be shocked to see uh what you find. I think it's actually the case that if you have this magnanimous pious magistrate, large sold, extraordinarily wellresected, um, you know, piety dropping out of his ears, and if he turns and looks and says, "Not that, man, does that really affect the people? Where does he go to church on Sunday?" You know, think about all the people that were carefully looking at whether or not George Washington was taking communion, you know?

[00:30:50]>> Yeah. Um I think that what you'll find is that there's various means that the magistrate may use depending on the circumstance. But the one means that he can always use is the most powerful and that is the example that he sets, the words that he says, the things that he favors and disfavors. At the very least, I think all Christians should agree that the magistrate should care about how religion is doing in the nation or in the country and that he ought to at the very least use his power of fashion to do that. So, number one, I'm going to adopt that phrase, the power of fashion, because that's objectively cool. But also, I think it helps to answer that question of um when when somebody has an objection to this sort of thing and they say, "So, you're depending on the president/king/mperor/ whoever it might be in power. So, you're depending on them to promulgate true religion." And it's like, well, no. But at the same time, are we acting as if that has no consequence upon the people who follow him? I mean the entirety anybody who comes through um you know a study of for example the English uh the English historical precedent for how religion and the various wars but also just how religious u how religious swings happened within England over the years and how that's shaped kind of the colonial field you'll understand that a ruler and their faith has has massive implications on those who follow them.

[00:32:08]Um I do want to point out two errors and and just kind of again this is this is sort of just kind of framing the insacra circus sacra discussion. What this helps to prevent and sort of preserve and help people walk through is obviously sort of twin errors and there's different ways we could probably phrase or or or uh or kind of uh form these these kind of errors. Um I've chosen I've chosen two different definitions of it. But the the illustration I want to use is during the sort of aftermath of COVID and when people were um you know discussing is it is it okay for our government, state government, whatever it might have been to tell us, you know, how close we need to stand and in what way we can sing and possibly how loud I can I can sing. And um there was a Christian apologist who used this this illustration about having a hat with a spinning wheel and if the governor says that you should wear it, you should wear it and stuff and and things got very strange.

[00:33:02]>> Yeah.

[00:33:02]>> What what this circusac discussion helps prevent is sort of two twin errors. On the one hand, you have arassianism which is again the state sort of absorbing the church. not not just having a circular authority that interacts with the church and is concerned with matters of the church but actually absorbing the church. Now again lots of kind of in-house discussions and debates on arassianism but that's at the one the one in true arassianism wherein the state absorbs the church. That's one thing. On the other side what this helps prevent us from is a radical separation or separationism where the state has no concern in religious affairs. These are these are polls if we can graph it.

[00:33:41]These are polls of concern. One says the state must absorb the church to get things done. The other says the state actually has no concern with the church or how the church functions. Traditional reformation theology has rejected both of those things um explicitly at many points. So that's what we're trying to guard against and help people to think through.

[00:34:01]>> That's right. And I I would say that the more winsome but equally erroneous way to make one of those errors is to say, well, yeah, of course, you know, the president cares about how the church is doing, but he just as much cares about how the local mosque and Hindu temple is doing.

[00:34:19]>> Mhm.

[00:34:19]>> Okay. That's actually not displaying a care for religion.

[00:34:24]>> Yeah.

[00:34:25]>> Right. that that is that that's showing that you actually don't care because those are mutually exclusive. They're mutually exclusive, right?

[00:34:32]>> Yes.

[00:34:33]>> Now, I'm of course I'm not saying that he doesn't care about how the citizenry are doing and you know, you don't want violence, things like that, but there is a special prioritized attention and concern that the magistrate has to have for the Christian church because it is the true religion.

[00:34:52]>> Right?

[00:34:52]In fact, uh, as is wise, uh, and useful, he should attempt to reduce the influence of the false religions because he cared because he cares about religion, >> right?

[00:35:04]>> If he didn't care about religion, oh, he can just treat them all neutally equally, right?

[00:35:08]>> So, whenever we say, you know, on the one hand, he does, you know, it's not like the pastor has to look to the magistrate to know if he can do his job or not. The pastor >> deres his authority from the the president. Totally false. That's the errors of arastianism. On the other hand, we don't want to say he has no care. We also don't want to say that he has equal care for all forms of religion, >> right?

[00:35:31]>> That just shows you don't actually care about religion, >> which again the the way you're using religion, again, just kind of keying back to what you said earlier about words. When we speak of religion and when when our reformed forebears spoke of religion, typically what we were discussing is Christian denominations.

[00:35:45]Does the president have the same concern for Yeah. Methodists and Baptists and Presbyterians on the same block. We're not talking about those things which you just described as false religions, things that that are offensive to God and are antithetical to the true religion. The fact that the magistrate would have an equal care for those denies every bit of what we've been walking through.

[00:36:05]>> Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, I think this distinction is worth keeping. I think it's operative um amongst our American Presbyterians at the founding and later.

[00:36:15]Uh, and I think that there's lots of things that just don't make sense if you get rid of it.

[00:36:19]>> Yeah. And I also think it helps it helps Christians, again, this isn't like a hottake episode, but anybody that's been keeping up with things in recent years, um, sometimes they'll have a prayer breakfast at the White House and you'll see various stripes of quote unquote people of faith and they're and they're gathered together. And again, what we're discussing is what should be and what can be and what ought be. We're not necessarily discussing what is now or what was within the last 10 years or 15 or 20 years. However, when you see those sort of things, what you should be thinking through if you're using these categories is the true religion. The the magistrate is doing best when he is concerned with the true religion, not interfering in it, nor subsuming it under his authority, which would be improper. However, having a true care for the true religion, not the same care that he has for citizens who are given over to false religions, which again he has a duty to, but not in the same way we're describing with promulgating the true religion, cuz what what God has given is actually best. That's actually good for any people in any age.

[00:37:19]>> That's exactly right. And I want to bring this home because I think for some people they really do think about this as if the magistrate is uh we're saying the magistrate has to care about things that aren't really relevant to him.

[00:37:30]Okay?

[00:37:31]>> Right?

[00:37:32]>> And we had the liberty of thinking that way for a many decades because while we denied in words that the magistrate had anything to do with religion in the 20th century, we could only do that exactly because all of the Christian assumptions that were deeply baked into our legal and social systems. Okay, imagine a world where the magistrate is literally neutral on which religion is true. Is it possible for him to do his job? No.

[00:38:03]Which laws ought to be enforced?

[00:38:06]Which laws ought to be enforced?

[00:38:08]>> Right.

[00:38:08]>> Okay. Um, you could think of laws relating to sexuality, relating to theft, relating to all sorts of different things that the magistrate can't properly write laws or enforce them unless he takes a religious position. Okay, >> it is true that when you look across cultures and across time, you see God's natural law at work or there are many things that uh countries with uh false religions still got right. Okay. But we all know the things that they got wrong >> and many of them are incredibly important and central to our social institutions and our social cohesion.

[00:38:49]What's marriage? Can you have more than one wife?

[00:38:52]>> Okay. Can you have um a you know the Romans did many things that were very evil to young men. Okay, is that okay to do or not according to Christianity?

[00:39:04]Not. What about polygamy? You know, we could go on and on and on. The magistrate can't do his This is why it's a national security issue. The magistrate can't enforce law and order unless he um is ruling from the position of confidence about what the true religion is because that feeds into everything else. And everyone acknowledges this. Okay, the Romans, the Greeks, ancient near east, across the world, across time, all of them recognized you can't have law without religion because religion determines too many things that are very important for social life, right?

[00:39:33]>> They all they all acknowledge >> what is good and what is evil. Yeah.

[00:39:36]>> What's good, what's evil, right?

[00:39:37]>> Um so we can pretend like that's not the case as long as secretly everyone is really Christian deep down, right?

[00:39:44]Culture. Okay. But once you start losing those moral assumptions, all of a sudden you got to really reckon with, well, can we make an argument against gay marriage just purely on quote unquote natural law, what everyone agrees on. You know, people have tried and didn't convince the Supreme Court, >> right?

[00:40:03]>> Yep.

[00:40:05]Good. All right. Well, we'll land the plane here. Large topic. I'm glad we gave kind of a 30,000 foot overview, but hopefully it's helpful. Um, if anybody watching this has any um feedback, comments, uh, if if they're positive, post them. If they're negative, just keep them to yourself and pray for us.

[00:40:21]But, um, no, interact with us. Shoot us an email. Always happy to do so. And again, this is something that we've interacted with on on some of our other EM network channels. Um, I know Alex Kman has interacted with some of these things. So, check them out. Um, check out the other channels that are that are part of our sort of podcast uh family at at EM Network. But, James, always always a pleasure to talk to you, brother.

[00:40:42]Always a pleasure to talk to you.

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