Lady Heard - Episode 11 - Heteronormativity and Amatonormativity

Added: 2026-05-25

[00:00:29]Hello. Hello listeners and welcome to this episode of Lady Herd. I am Sylvia and today I will be your host. Say hi to our lovely ladies Seolen and Shila.

[00:00:39]>> Hi.

[00:00:40]>> Hey.

[00:00:40]>> Who today discuss with me two concepts that you might not be familiar with. The first concept that I wanted to talk to you about is heteronormativity, which is the idea that everyone in this world is straight. Aka, if you are a guy, you are only and in un and necessarily attracted to women. And for women, you are only interested and attracted to men.

[00:01:11]However, it goes without saying that this concept is a little bit out of touch with reality. We know in fact that sexuality and romance can go in multiple directions which contrast with the so-called norm. So, ladies, time to be heard. Have you ever heard of this term before? And if so, on what occasion?

[00:01:38]Who wants to go first? I can go first if you want.

[00:01:42]Yes. In my case during my bachelors. So I I remember I joined a research group by the time and back in the days we were um discussing society related topics in human rights mostly and one of our discussions uh a member brought up the topic. So I think that was the first time I heard of it.

[00:02:07]>> Mhm. So interesting that they mentioned it during your study course in this case.

[00:02:13]>> Yeah.

[00:02:14]>> What about you, Sega?

[00:02:16]>> I knew of the concept but I didn't have a word for it and uh I think I heard it like only one time before but I didn't do the connection but I knew of the concept. Yes.

[00:02:28]>> And did you knew it from your studies or where have you heard it for the first time? from the study and from realizing after after getting out of my small village and seeing the world and things that not all people are straight.

[00:02:45]I got to realize that yeah you don't have to be in a couple with the opposite say so go out of the village and explore the world. The word heteronormativity was coined by social theorist Michael Warner in 1991 to describe a conjunct of concepts interrelated with each other such as gender, sexuality, and normality.

[00:03:12]It is the belief that every person is heterosexual and that being in a heterosexual relationship is the default and natural outcome.

[00:03:25]Other than that there is the underlining assumption that this vision not only is a standardized experience but also that is the only right one possible.

[00:03:39]Furthermore, it reinforces the idea that there are only two genders with fixed societal role who complement each other.

[00:03:49]Therefore, if we see this in a hierarchical structure, heteronormativity becomes also socially compulsory and it is above everything else. So ladies, now that you got a better insight on the definition, what is your outlook on this?

[00:04:07]>> I really agree and I I still do it sometime because I think it's my my default brain. My brain is in default mode by by how the society is at the moment. But I'm trying to be careful and you know to use they and to use partner but sometime when I'm tired or anything or I don't think before I talk I still like sleep up. If I'm guilty of that I guess that other people can be guilty of that too.

[00:04:34]Uh yeah, it's funny how wired your brain gets to be at at at certain age and that it's kind of hard to rewire it.

[00:04:45]Uh you really have to it's it's a muscle. So you have to rewire it and um to not think how you were told to think until a certain point in your life.

[00:04:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. I know I agree with this that it is not just the wiring brain part. It's also like the environment we grow up in that makes us think, oh, I'm seeing just straight couples. I'm seeing just boy and girl holding hands together being free. And you think that that is the norm. And then when you come across something different, you're like, "Oh, what is this?" If there might be a bit of curiosity, but depending on how your brain and how the your environment shaped you, then you have a different reaction. So yeah, Shila, what about you?

[00:05:44]>> I agree with you both. I think that whether intentionally or unintentionally, we kind of see the world through the lens of heteronormativity.

[00:05:56]And a great example of this is when a man asks a woman if she has a boyfriend instead of asking her if she has a partner, right? So, it's very subtle, but we tend to assume that um as you said, women are attracted to men and vice versa, and that's the only way possible.

[00:06:14]Thank you for sharing your opinions about it. And now I want to discuss another word that I'm sure even less people have heard of and which might spark a little controversy.

[00:06:27]And that word is amatonormativity. The American philosopher Elizabeth break created this term in 2011 and explained that in her book minimizing marriage, marriage morality and the law that it is the widespread assumption that everyone is better off in an exclusive romantic long-term coupled relationship and that everyone is seeking such a relation.

[00:07:00]relationship. Now, I'm not going to bring any further concepts to the table today, but I have come across a lot of videos about people upset about the fact that their best friends or friends they seemed they deemed very close with were suddenly neglecting years of friendship to be with their newly acquired significant others. or were simply obsessed with their new date. So, I wanted to ask you, uh, since we're mentioning like social media and YouTube, um, have you ever come across on your feed, maybe randomly, maybe, I don't know, because you were liking a certain type of content, this kind of complained like, "Oh my god, my bestie is just obsessed with their new date and ignores me." I never encounter that.

[00:07:58]Um but I think it's not I don't get like in my algorithm there is nothing like that. There is no it's all like people reading poem it's all related to film acting or anything or heart in general.

[00:08:12]So I don't have like I don't like this issue and this type of content in my feed.

[00:08:19]Um so I never come across it.

[00:08:23]>> Lucky you then sha.

[00:08:27]Oh, am I fit? Um, no. Actually, if I see that a dear friend of mine is in a relationship and they seem happy, of course, I will be happy for them. But, uh, we I think we all had a friend who became a boyfriend and girlfriend and then the friendship died or faded away a little bit, you know, but I won't judge them. people fell in love and for some the relationship kind of has a different weight in comparison to a friendship.

[00:08:59]So, but not in my feed.

[00:09:01]>> Yeah. Like I mean cuz I don't really have social media but like I remember like thinking about the topic and then I went on YouTube and then like I saw v like numbers of videos. The numbers of videos you don't have no idea. it's all the same topic and like or even in shorts like people complain like about the same thing. So this is the social media experiment let's say that I that I that I did on the topic and that's uh what happened and my findings and now I want to go more into books. So in the book All About Love, Belle Hooks recalls something similar happening to her with one of her closest friends. She says, "Often we take friendships for granted, even when they are the interactions where we experience mutual pleasure. We place them in secondary position, especially in relation to romantic bonds.

[00:10:06]This devaluation of our friendships creates an emptiness. we might not see when we are devoting all our attention to a chosen loved one. Committed love relationships are far more likely to become codependent when we cut off all our ties with friends to give these bonds we consider primary our exclusive attention.

[00:10:32]I have felt especially devastated when close friends who were single fell in love and simultaneously fell away from our friendship. So while is the honeymoon phase, it is something that everyone at the beginning of the romantic relationship seems to be experiencing.

[00:10:51]Fewer are the studies about this other social phenomenon which we just seen for which it is socially acceptable to ditch your friends to be with your lover 100% of the time because a romantic partner will unconditionally and with absolute certainty provide you with all the care you need. like it is a moral obligation they have to fulfill and it is taken for granted that this relationship should be put above any other one. The same goes with the idea that every single human on this planet who is not in a romantic relationship must be really sad, lonely about it, and that they are in some ways as immature as children because a romantic relationship adults you up, let alone those who are seeking more than one partner like polyamorous people.

[00:11:53]greedy of you to assume that more than one person could give you the love that you need regardless of your relationship status. After this provocative statement, I want you to imagine all these ideas put together and growing up watching films where the ultimate goal is to win their heart over.

[00:12:16]And I wanted to ask you, have you ever noticed that romcoms stop at the happy ending phase, but we never see what happens next? And also what happened to their friends along the way?

[00:12:31]>> Yeah, I have I have witnessed that and I I watched a lot of different type of movie and a lot of romcom as the tension that you get before getting together.

[00:12:43]But that kind of word because you you know you want to see the happy ending.

[00:12:48]um it will be great to see um what comes after because the relationship you know it's a lot of work and uh it's not always happy there is conflict and all um and I have witnessed as well like especially in older stories or other work come like you know the single person were sad and um they fade in their life or something.

[00:13:20]It's it get it has gotten a bit better, but we could witness that.

[00:13:25]>> So, we see the single person eating ice cream and being depressed >> and crying. Oh my gosh.

[00:13:32]>> Who doesn't want to have like a night with the TV and eating ice cream and watching a series that you like? It's great. Honestly.

[00:13:40]>> Yes. Yes. We we'll live for the wrong comes especially when we when we need them. Uh but uh yeah, I wouldn't mind like if they added like extra scenes like you know after the ending the the end part maybe you know to have like extra scenes like and that they are not part of the director's cut. They're actually part of the movie. But yeah Sha, what is what do you think about it?

[00:14:07]Like have you noticed this pattern as well? I yeah I kind of notice but to be fair to me if I'm watching romcom I want a happy ending period otherwise I go for thriller really >> that's the least I'm asking for >> that's a choice that's a choice and I understand like sometimes we just need to like like completely relax detach from whatever is going on in the world and in our lives and just put hit pause and like go. My second question to you and final one is, have you ever questioned this reality that not everyone would be okay with a romantic relationship at the center of their lives? And which other forms of love do you think should be equally valued? Actually, two questions. Uh first of all, I think it's really nice when you find someone with whom you can establish kind of a deep connection and start thinking about growing together and supporting each other.

[00:15:22]And I also believe that when we have a romantic partner, we should be each other's best friend. That to me is like non-negotiable.

[00:15:31]Though that doesn't mean all other aspects of your life should be neglected. And even because when this person arrived in your life, very likely there was or there should have been a whole system set. And what do I mean by that? A group of friends who you can count on your family, your hobbies, your dreams, your personal and professional projects, you know. So things and people we care about can be expressed by different forms of love. and I love my family, I love my friends, I love to dance, I love to run, I love to write and so on and so forth. So instead of competing with each other, they should be in a crazy way kind of overlapping because all of them together bring you different and good feelings. So they all combined make you happier. And we shouldn't give up on our own universe just to make someone else's fit in even because there is nothing sexier than someone who has a healthy hectic life.

[00:16:43]In my dearest opinion, I do agree that each form of love should coexist and each and every one of them should be merging together instead of like being in separate compartments.

[00:16:59]So yeah, pretty much agree with you.

[00:17:01]What about you, Sego?

[00:17:03]>> I fully agree with Shida on the partner that you should be your best friend and um I'm like I don't have a I have a lot of obese, but I'm a deeply introverted person. So I love to stay at him. So you know, it need to be my partner need to be someone that I can support every day at home because I'm stuck at home with that person. And so I need to you know the criteria are not the same method.

[00:17:30]I'm way more exent with the person that is in my house with me uh in my house that is my safe space the space that I love to be in the most. So I fully agree with Shida and I think you know love is complicated and there is many type of love and all the love are valuable and they all teach us choose something different and bring you something different and there is also I think moment of your life where there is type of love that you can't provide and you can't receive as well. So you know maybe sometime you are not ready to be in a relationship. So you can't love love someone but you can love your friend and those friend can bring you the love that you need that you can't get anywhere else. Um I'm thinking you know if you're struggling mentally with depression or anything if you can't even love yourself you can't love anybody else at this moment. Um, so I think it's like timing, finding the good person and um, and yeah, like Sha said as well, it's like a puzzle and and every part of your life need to fix together to do a beautiful puzzle. Well, thank you for sharing your point of view, Sego. Yeah, I I could see like how being an introvert like I'm an introvert myself like I think to have somebody you can rely on like especially like in your case like it's also your not only your best friend but also your romantic partner like and husband um would make it like the the full package experience be um in a way uh more valuable and like that it brings something to you that you um feel comfortable with and you have comfort in. So I do I do agree with this part of course uh that um yeah that partners like can give us stability and especially if they live with us um it is better to have a healthy relationship than a shitty one. But for me as a queer person, I have to say that I felt um sometimes well quite a lot of times uh left out by my friends because of romantic relationship. I have to say I have a little biased position on this.

[00:20:08]While is I do consider myself somebody that can feel romantic attraction, I am also aware that there are more than just than romantic and sexual attraction.

[00:20:20]And therefore I am able to give and provide love as a and to hopefully also receive love also from other forms of love such as friendship or like I don't know family member as we were mentioning before and I think that if possible there shouldn't be like such big hierarchy uh between types of loves because in the end we are all humans that want attention, need care, need to rely on one another because as I don't know who said this quote but all humans like every human is an island or something like that and on top of that I read I think a couple of years ago a book by Dolly Alderton called literally everything I know about love. And I'm not going to give you any spoiler about it, but it really kind of shapes your way to think differently about this topic.

[00:21:37]And yeah, I just want to thank you for both of your reflections. And I don't know if my experience and my reflections as a queer person might have like sparked oh like okay she thinks differently because she had a different experience to it or not but yeah before closing I wanted to know from you what do you think of my perspective from uh somebody that doesn't have a hierarchical let's say view of love.

[00:22:13]It's totally valid and totally fair. I think I'm kind of the opposite of you. I think I I don't know if I can blame that um on my introvert side, but you you know being with people is kind of exhausting when you are introvert. And so the only person I can be with that doesn't exhaust me is my partner. And that's great. But when I when I'm with friends, even though I love them, at one point I kind of like I don't have any more energy, you know, I I I start to dissociate. I start to go into my own world and I start to and okay, I need a pose. I need a break. I'm sorry. I love you, but and then go. So your view on that is totally fair and it's based on your personality and your experience and it's not and I think it's great that you were able to pick out the type of love that you need uh because it's important to know what you need in life to be happy and it's great that you don't need to find a love partner to be happy. It's like it makes your job like kind of easier because it's hard to find someone that that's complete you and that give you happiness especially love is can be tricky sometime you can be dump and blind in love then that's great I agree with Sego although uh to me um I really need uh my me time that's very important so I will love my friends I will love my partner but I'd like to balance things out in a way. But it's true that with your partner, you develop intimacy. So you manage to spend a great amount of time, longer time with your partner that you would naturally spend with your friends, right?

[00:24:04]And that's also a proof that there is a future for YouTube because otherwise if you cannot stand each other more than a day, you know, that's kind of a red flag.

[00:24:20]And yeah, so I think it's all about the way you you balance your life and the amount of time you dedicate to yourself, to the ones you love, right?

[00:24:34]Yeah, I I have to say like I relate to both of you because I do have people that recharge me, Sego. Like among like the people that are in my life, like there are some people that I'm like, I love you, but my social battery is dying. Goodbye. And other ones that are like, yes, I want to spend more time with you because I get energy from you.

[00:24:58]Which is weird cuz I'm an introvert. So, but I also am very with you Shila like me time is fundamental especially when you need your like I don't know 15 minutes a day 1 hour whatever of like doing something that you love and like you don't need anybody's intrusion that is so priceless because it allows you to be more in tune with yourself with your emotions, with how you're doing in every moment. And sometimes you really need it. You really need it. So we love our partners and like but not every time. And yeah on the cont on the content of intimacy. Um I think it depends which value and like how you interpret intimacy like cuz if you attached it a ti tie to a sexual relationship that is one type of intimacy but then there's the emotional intimacy as well. No. So I think yeah it it it can depend on the on the person and how they see it and like of course like for you like is like both of them are very important. So of course you value like the 360 degrees of the intimacy in this case. Thank you ladies for both of your contributions in this last minute of our podcast.

[00:26:30]And if this last topic in interest interested you, dear listeners, I invite you to check out this article published in the Atlantic by Ryana Kohhan titled quite provocatively, what if friendship, not marriage, was at the center of life.

[00:26:50]I believe it will spark further reflections and make you see your relationships and the world in a different light.

[00:26:58]Thank you once again for having been with us and don't forget to like, subscribe to our channel, to all of our channels and you can support us fertily if you want to. We very much appreciate it on buy me a coffee. See you next time. Bye >> bye.

[00:27:18]>> Bye.