WATCH | Sander disputes Gen Senona claim over corruption email

追加: 2026-06-07

[00:00:00]I'm suspicious of my my techniques and my technology.

[00:00:04]But it was just in actual fact a very good working relationship with different role players and eventually some very good informers.

[00:00:13]I assume you mean sharing the information. The sharing there sounds bad. It's as if you're not sharing the drugs with them. You are not sharing the information on on how you are so successful with the drug busts.

[00:00:29]Commissioner um I don't know how to say it. Maybe we will get there in in in in other evidence if I can have 2 minutes of your time to tell you how we disrupt them getting the stuff and the different techniques. But it's going to expose undercover operational techniques. I >> I think just just I don't think you should get into that detail because then it will alert the drug dealers uh on how you operate and they will then h find ways to get around that.

[00:01:17]>> Thank you, Commissioner.

[00:01:18]>> Thank you, chair.

[00:01:21]Can I can I ask a question and hope it it doesn't get us back to what the chair is trying to be cautious about.

[00:01:31]You you said uh some words back that uh there has to be and I think you were explaining why how how Trump does for for that chain to to succeed ultimately.

[00:01:48]Can I ask you to just elaborate a bit there uh the role of a corrupt customs official for example in facilitating this? The role what role they would play the corrupt police officer in this chain that ultimately sees a successful uh trafficking of drugs to their final destination.

[00:02:15]Commissioner, I believe um the advocate asked me about the CHC seizure. If I deal with that, that will give you the commissioner a good example of how the information of a corrupt SARS official came about and then the steps taken after that.

[00:02:39]>> All right. I leave it to Can I do that?

[00:02:40]I leave it to Miss Sigas to >> Yes, we'll get to that. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:02:45]>> I just want to close off the your movements within DPCI so that we can then get to your statement and then we can deal with the other uh factual stuff. So what I wanted to find out from you in so far as your time at support services is you're not on suspension.

[00:03:06]you've been moved there because of serious corrupt allegations um which you you weren't given formal uh notification of what what they entailed.

[00:03:18]Uh what I want to understand is why they would move someone who's being accused of serious corruption to support services. Is it considered a safe place?

[00:03:29]I mean you mentioned um supply chain management. Is it a safe place to put somebody who's being accused of serious corruption?

[00:03:42]Commissioner, I don't want to say the location of where it is. Let's just say my office.

[00:03:48]I had a vault full of fully automatic weapons at my disposal.

[00:03:53]Not one, not two, a lot. As I said, I was the I I took over the armory for the DPCI. There is documentation. and I've signed a handing over. I was responsible for an audit. Um, a good audit if I may add. Um, the SCM team there is amazing.

[00:04:09]We got a clean audit from the auditor general for all our weapons and ammunition.

[00:04:13]Um, if I was corrupt, wouldn't sell drugs, I'd sell guns. My field of expertise is weapons.

[00:04:25]>> And so in that position, you described it as being in a prison.

[00:04:31]Commissioner, I work outside. Um, I'm an outdoor person. Um, you you you clock in through a checkpoint in the morning. You clock out at a checkpoint. There's no time. You cannot go out at a certain time. My only safe space was my coffee machine. And then they stole my coffee machine inside the DPCI.

[00:04:52]Sorry, I'm laughing about it. It's still so annoying. And I had to get polygraphed because of the theft of my own coffee machine.

[00:05:00]Who asked you to be polygraphed for the theft of your own coffee machine?

[00:05:04]>> General Sona. There were other exhibits.

[00:05:07]Um, there were other items that were going missing in the in the environment and again I was seen as a suspect and I had to go and get polygraphed for the theft of my own coffee machine.

[00:05:20]>> Do you know if you passed?

[00:05:21]>> I passed.

[00:05:24]I just want my coffee machine back.

[00:05:28]Did you get it back?

[00:05:30]>> No.

[00:05:34]>> No.

[00:05:35]>> Okay.

[00:05:37]Warrant officer. So when you move from uh supply chain management to uh in 20 in August 2025 to the um let's just call it the anti-human trafficking division.

[00:05:53]Um, how what is your experience like when you're now in that unit?

[00:05:57]>> Um, I'm dealing with some pretty high-profile cases. Um, I believe one has been called up at Madlanga a few times now. Um, and at another commission with DPP.

[00:06:10]Um, I have that matter at the moment.

[00:06:14]Um, I have, as I said, wildlife and fisheries, um, illegal poaching on our coastline. I've got human trafficking with people going to Cambodia that were trafficked nearly 200 and something people. So I think they're high-profile and with some form of um expertise or let's let's call it you don't want a corrupt person investigating them but here I am. I'm investigating them.

[00:06:38]>> And have you ever tried to get back to narcotics?

[00:06:45]>> I'd love to go back but I can't.

[00:06:49]And why do you say you can't?

[00:06:55]>> Here we are in Mlanga today. I'm giving evidence about the people that I work with or giving um testimony about different things. It's just not a very happy space.

[00:07:08]>> So your intention is then to stay where you where you are?

[00:07:12]>> I'm happy. It's a nice group of nice group to work with. We we doing we actually doing very well.

[00:07:19]>> And who do you report to?

[00:07:21]>> Colonel Jacob.

[00:07:22]>> Okay. So you still report to Colonel Jacob?

[00:07:25]>> Yes, ma'am.

[00:07:27]And >> can I just ask how long have you been a warrant officer?

[00:07:32]>> 2003.

[00:07:33]>> Since 2003.

[00:07:35]>> Yes, ma'am.

[00:07:41]Now, unless the commissioners have any other questions about your history, we I'd like to move over to your statement. You witness that.

[00:07:51]>> Maybe let me ask the this allegation against you. This this email that was sent that you're supplying narcotics to I think you said on Florida Road to people on Florida Road. Were you given other than that statement that there's an allegation that you're supplying narcotics, were you given any further detail of it as to what exactly you are alleged to have supplied? Who are the people that you're supplying to? When was this?

[00:08:27]>> Commissioner, the answer is no.

[00:08:29]>> You never got that detail.

[00:08:30]>> None of none of any of your none of any of your statement right now. The answer is no. No. No. No. No. No, no, no.

[00:08:37]>> So, you don't even know who the source of that email to head office. If there is an email to head office, there was an email.

[00:08:45]>> There was an email.

[00:08:46]>> The general had an email, but I wasn't allowed to read it.

[00:08:49]>> You don't know who it comes from?

[00:08:52]>> No.

[00:08:54]>> So, it could you didn't see it that email?

[00:08:56]>> It could also be a false email.

[00:08:58]>> That's what I'm asking. That So, it could have been an email that says, "Hi, how are you?" to anybody, but because you didn't see it, you don't know if that email that was being waved around contained the allegation against you.

[00:09:11]>> Correct, Commissioner?

[00:09:12]>> Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, M.

[00:09:15]>> But Commissioner, it from my side, if I may, it's false.

[00:09:20]>> Yes.

[00:09:25]>> Yes. Thank you.

[00:09:28]>> Thank you.

[00:09:30]Can we then go to your statement which is an annexure to Colonel Jacob's statement? It's in the consolidated statement file um under section three and it's the second folder under section 3. can just uh look at the tab GYJ1 commissioner.

[00:10:11]And now before I ask you to read the statement, can I just ask you how did it come about that you prepared this statement?

[00:10:27]>> Commissioner, I was called by Colonel Jacob. Um, no I wasn't called by him.

[00:10:31]Um, it was either long my office is right below his office. I am applying for early retirement and my exit interview and my paperwork has to be done by Colonel Jacob and I believe it was in the process then I also do our group returns and we talk about cases and convictions and stuff like that. So there was obviously admin that also needed to be done in Colonel Jacob's office. And when I was in his office, he said to me, he'd been approached and he had to give a statement for Matlanga. He wanted just to confirm a version of of his regarding a seizure that I had made at CHC.

[00:11:23]Um, I seized quite a large consignment of Mandrex at the premises and he was rebutting a statement um, made by General Flynn.

[00:11:37]>> Okay.

[00:11:38]>> Um, he said he'd prepared a statement and that he just needed me to sign it.

[00:11:44]Um, he read it at first. Um, I wasn't happy with what he had written and I said he needed to edit a few things. Um he did such and he asked me to sign it.

[00:11:59]>> So did he draft this statement that we have on as GYJ1?

[00:12:05]>> Correct, Commissioner. Um I did ask that there was no case number on the top of the statement. He said he didn't require a case number on the top of the statement. Um the pages weren't indexed or impaginated. He said it was sufficient and I left it at that.

[00:12:20]Um, just before I get to the statement, you said that you've applied for early retirement.

[00:12:27]>> Correct. Commissioner, >> do you mind me asking uh if it is related to your work or is it for personal reasons?

[00:12:35]>> Yes.

[00:12:37]>> Which >> um it's related to work and the police has given us a a an early retirement benefit at the moment. It's a no-brainer. It's it it's suitable. I've got after this year I've got this year I've got 40 years service. I wanted 42.

[00:12:57]I'll take 40.

[00:13:00]Um I'm not going to get promoted. Um I was shortlisted previously. Thank you for that. Um I did not get the posted asset forfeite. Um but if I'm correct, there won't be another notch increment or I won't qualify for any further promotion in the SAPS at my current um rank. So for me not to take the benefit, it's actually nonsensical. There's quite a few other fellow members that we're all applying to leave.

[00:13:28]And the I mean it it seems maybe to state the obvious quite a shame that with with the amount of experience that you have in matters relating to narcotics you would leave uh early but also because of circumstances in the work environment.

[00:13:49]um this application for for early retirement is it a given that it succeeds or it's subject to subs management deciding that we still require your skills and we we want to retain you >> that is correct commissioner there's quite a little lengthy bible that you fill in and one of the questions they ask you have you transferred your skills said how do you transfer your skills in two months Yes.

[00:14:19]>> That's impossible.

[00:14:22]That's impossible. 40 years of skills.

[00:14:24]How do you transfer it in two months?

[00:14:28]>> Is it What's your answer? Is your answer that it's subject to management approval? You You've applied.

[00:14:34]>> Is it a given?

[00:14:35]>> God willing, I've applied it to get approved.

[00:14:37]>> Okay. So, it may it may not be approved.

[00:14:39]>> Don't say that.

[00:14:40]>> No.

[00:14:45]>> Okay. I'm having a theoretical discussion with you that theoretically the way the system works I'm asking a systems uh process the way the systems work system works it's it's in the realm of of possible outcomes >> that is correct that could be a decision and and which is a good faith disc decision let's say good faith because someone thinks you should go back to narcotics and we need you there for another 10 years. I'm asking that kind of question. You you know it you agree that >> I agree with you commissioner that to me um if I was the commissioner of the police and you had to read certain people's performance and stuff and you say yes that person can do this you okay come back I want you to do that I agree commissioner the skills retention um if if I if I may um I have asked the permission my current partner she's her and her sister are twins she's the kennel master and my current partner is one of the old golden diamond people. So when she leaves in October, you got no more qualified gold and diamond people in Durban KZM.

[00:15:58]So who's going to have the the expertise um the valuation of diamonds, the valuation of gold, identification of platinum and all the the necessary? It's gone. That vacuum, that space can never be filled.

[00:16:15]>> Thank you.

[00:16:17]Thank you, warrant officer. Can we now go to your statement?

[00:16:23]Can you read it from paragraph one?

[00:16:30]>> I'm a detective warrant officer in the South African Police Service. My >> Don't read your personal number.

[00:16:35]>> I'm attached to the director proprietary crimes investigations, serious organized crime investigation based at 136 Margaret and Guardi Avenue, Durban. My cell phone number is >> How long have you been in in DPCI uh serious organized crime?

[00:16:53]>> Commissioner, we were the first people in organized crime um under Colonel Villo. Um he was my original commander and um from the the organized crime developed into the directorate for proprietary crime investigation. So I've been there since 1999.

[00:17:11]I started working with them from 90 um when sunup um it was brigadier nika he was still doing the harbor interdiction program and that's how I got to know their working activities I was in a specialized um tactical unit and I started working with them and then when um our unit was closed down change of government I applied to go across >> General Sona found you >> no >> in the DPCI I was there before him.

[00:17:42]>> That's what I mean. He found you there.

[00:17:44]>> He found me there. Yeah.

[00:17:46]>> Thank you. And >> he was from Port Shepson.

[00:17:51]>> Okay. DPCI.

[00:17:53]>> I think it was murder and robbery. Yes.

[00:17:56]>> Okay. And uh Jacob.

[00:17:59]>> Jacob came from the Scorpions. He was a sergeant.

[00:18:03]>> He also found you there.

[00:18:05]>> I was there before him. Yes.

[00:18:06]>> All right. Thank you.

[00:18:10]You may continue.

[00:18:12]>> Um, paragraph 2. On 20205, I headed an operation at CHC container depot in Isao Durban Central OC inquiry. It's organized crime inquiry. Three of two 2020 refers.

[00:18:29]Approximately 570 kg of suspected Mandrex and Mandrex powder was seized during this operation. Paragraph three.

[00:18:37]>> Sorry, let me ask you a question that I should have asked earlier before I forget. Before this situation where you are told there are allegations against you and you get removed, >> had you had prior cases of disciplinary action against you, complaints? Not >> no.

[00:18:56]>> Okay. Thank you.

[00:19:01]>> You may continue.

[00:19:04]Um three later the same day I along with other DPCI and Metro members uh metro police members proceeded to isap isingo saps wherein the exhibits were to be entered.

[00:19:19]The exhibit cler warren officer perl came through after a while he initially did not want to store the exhibits. He eventually agreed to accommodate us by storing the exhibits in the armory and the charge office. Captain following he indicated that they did not have members to guard these exhibits. I booked these exhibits into SAP 13 register uh via Isaoa SAP 131 163 of 2020.

[00:19:47]On the following day um the date as I mentioned is incorrect. It's 0206.

[00:19:52]Someone from my office called me to inform me that Esopinga SAP called indicating that the exhibits were making the members sick. I am unsure as to who called me. I proceeded to escaping SAP with a team. I noticed the charge charge office members were outside the building. I did then book out the exhibits for analysis with Warrenov Perl counter signing the SAP 13 register to acknowledge the same. I proceeded to FSL amensment to where I was turned away by Colonel Kuzwire and Warren officer Sabir as they could not accommodate these exhibits. I knew that SAP is Sapingo SAP would not take these exhibits back. I am unsure how it transpired, but I do recall that Durban Central SAP had agreed to assist with storage of these exhibits. Page two.

[00:20:41]We stored these drugs at a vault at Durban Central SAP. Um, sorry, I did ask if we could lo disclose the location before we gave the evidence.

[00:20:52]I made numerous inquiries with the FSL amensum toti and a few calls to colonel schol of FSL Ptoria regarding these and other bulk exhibits that required analys analysis or dispos.