LIVE: UGANDA HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION APPEARS BEFORE COSASE I JULY 22, 2026

[00:00:00]uh but needless to say we are ready to proceed. I want to welcome uh our witnesses but before uh inviting them I want to give just at least a a a second for the deputy chair the vice chair who is also new to also give some remarks under the communication from the chair window which I was using.

[00:00:25]Thank you chair. Uh good morning once again colleagues. First of all, I want to welcome uh uh the team. Uh this is the first team we're interfacing with and uh we apologize for the late start.

[00:00:37]Uh we were supposed to interface yesterday uh but for the demise of the the deceased right honorable Moses Ali.

[00:00:46]Uh and then for our members first of all the chair has said it all. The most important thing is that when we come here, we are doing one of the most important roles of parliament which is oversight. Uh we are here as part of parliament and when we come here despite our different political unions, we are following public expenditure. We are not following political parties. We following the public expenditure and uh which is one of the most important roles of parliament accountability and oversight. So um we can the work is set out for us. Uh like we mentioned uh the work which is reinstated is a lot uh the work which was reinstated by parliament which was not concluded by the 11th parliament. So our work is cut out that we have two weeks of marathon work uh which is already cut short by one day.

[00:01:39]So it will call for us to keep time to to prepare and of course for the entities that are coming we will not be guided by anything else apart from the law and the facts before us. So I thank you and uh we think that as uh parliament we are here to do what we saw to do a few months ago. I thank you.

[00:02:04]I thank you. That is honorable of municipality is chill.

[00:02:16]Well, I also want to relay uh this this uh previously I think in in the last parliament there are some entities there are some structural commissions some authorities and some state enterprises which had been eron erroneously transferred to nowhere.

[00:02:43]They were neither accounting to public accounts committee, central, local government, government assurance.

[00:02:54]So they were nowhere and indeed some of these entities may think they still have that clout or cover.

[00:03:04]The new administration of parliament, the speaker has since announced that we must do things right.

[00:03:13]So all entities if once invited and you know you are a sub authority, a state enterprise or a commission, you have a duty to come and respond to all concerns as raised by the committee.

[00:03:32]Any accounting officer or entity which chooses to refuse, neglect or disrespect any invitation by Kosas, we shall drag it using the force of law to this committee. And as you rightly heard from our from the introduction. We want to thank paramed that the committee is empowered with an able team from Uganda police, the CDs, an able team from the auditor general, uh from the accountant general, we have researchers, uh and others, economists and others. So we are going to deploy the services of all these user departments to ensure that we are alive with the rules and the committee transact with a lot of ease but in accordance with the law. So I wanted to communicate this not to only you here but to all accounting officers in the country. If you are an accounting officer or a political head under which a satary enterprise belong a commission or agency once invited I only advise you politely and kindly respect our invitation rest we shall invoke the law and drag you here we want accountable institutions and that's our duty and mandate ladies and gentle Gentlemen, colleagues and our guests, I want now to welcome you.

[00:05:03]There's engagement with Uganda Home Commission. Now, from the introduction, I don't know who is heading the team.

[00:05:13]When I read the law, if I invite you on the microphone, the constitution uh the constitution provides for Uganda Home right Commission.

[00:05:32]The commission shall be composed of a chair person and not less than three other persons appointed by the president with approval of parliament.

[00:05:43]Uh now I've heard the accounting officer I don't know who is now the political head of this delegation.

[00:05:54]I want some clarity before we entertain your responses.

[00:06:01]Honorable chair, the political head of the commission is the chairperson who is not here.

[00:06:14]Uh honorable chair, the political head of the commission is the chairperson who is not with us this morning.

[00:06:33]you you're saying chair I said the political head of the commission in um line with article 51 you've read you've just read is the chairperson uh who is not with us this morning here is there any explanation because I've I've been briefed by the cler. They sent invitations to the accounting officer and also to the commission.

[00:07:05]The chairperson was duly invited. Did you receive the invitations from the committee >> chair? The invitations were received.

[00:07:14]>> Use the microphone. Bring it closer. We want to you to be on record.

[00:07:18]>> The invitations were received honorary received by the commission by you.

[00:07:24]>> By the registry. I can confirm.

[00:07:28]Were they transmitted to whoever was invited?

[00:07:31]>> They were transmitted. Honorable chair.

[00:07:34]So the chairperson received the invitation.

[00:07:37]>> Yes.

[00:07:39]Do you have any communication as to why the chairperson is not with you?

[00:07:44]>> I do not have any official communication.

[00:07:48]Is the chairperson still in office?

[00:07:54]Yes, she is honorable chair. So, by the time the invitation was received, was the chairperson in office? Yes, she was.

[00:08:03]And they said the invitation was transmitted to her.

[00:08:06]>> Yes, chair.

[00:08:10]Now, did she or did the commission delegate any of you to read the delegation today or did she delegate any any commissioner officer? Uh honorable chair as accounting officer I'm not aware luckily enough we have honorable members of the commission here uh I would kindly request uh that they are better positioned to respond to that.

[00:08:37]How many commissioners did you come with?

[00:08:40]>> We've come with five. Five. Yes sir.

[00:08:44]Now to to to clear this, let the commissioners speak to us whether any of them have a mandate to represent the chairperson or they also merely came as commissioners without representing the the office of the chair. Each commissioner beyond record chair and members I'm a member of the commission. I don't have that mandate.

[00:09:16]Yeah honorable chair I am omara I don't have that mandate to chair I was invited and I came with my own capacity so I'm not aware >> honorable chair and members I came in my own capacity as a commissioner. I don't have any instructions from the chair chair members. I received an invitation to appear before this committee and uh I am duly here in that capacity. Thank you.

[00:10:04]Uh so accounting officer you are the one who informed or shared the invitation with the commissioners.

[00:10:16]Yes honorable chair. The invitation from the parliament was addressed to the chairperson and the accounting officer and copied in copied to the honorable members of the commission. I took responsibility to write a covering letter to notify them and I attached that intention. It having been coped to them not withstanding. Could you be having a copy of your covering letter fighting and and copying the to the commissioners?

[00:10:55]I only wrote a covering letter to the honorable members because they were in a copy. The chairperson received the substantive invitation. It therefore did not warrant any further internal communication.

[00:11:12]Thank you. Now according to you Thank you chair. My name is Chisa Hakim SA member of parliament for constituency in Wango district. First of all Mr. Chair I wanted us to establish what constitutes a full commission and the second question is the commission still fully functioning. Maybe that can guide our proceedings.

[00:11:58]Commissioner, please switch off that microphone.

[00:12:02]Honorable SE that microphone.

[00:12:06]Yes.

[00:12:09]I wanted chair to inquire according to law. Can we handle these people without the chairperson of the commission and without his delegated person or her delegated person?

[00:12:26]Yes. Any other? Yes.

[00:12:34]Honorable chair, I wanted to learn or hear from the commission whether they have a leadership crisis.

[00:12:44]Yes.

[00:12:47]Thank you, chair.

[00:12:49]chair mine goes to the accounting officer uh because uh there's uh some information which has been going around about the resignation of the chair and when I I I recall your question to him as in regard whether the chairperson has ever received the communication from parliament he does seem not to be very honest to this committee cuz we've been seeing a letter where the chair is resigning.

[00:13:27]He's claiming that the chair the same chairperson received the communication the invitation from parliament. So we want him to to be very clear. We need honesty before this committee because it is the reason why we are here. Mr. Chair, mine goes to the accounting officer. Thank you.

[00:13:55]Now I think there are some administrative and governance concerns and I think in terms of ranking the commissioners are better positioned uh because we have administrative concerns and audit concerns. Now for for record when it comes to uh to accounting before I go into into the admin part Mr. Kamad, when did you become the accounting officer of Omar's commission?

[00:14:29]Be on the record. On the 17th of April, 2026.

[00:14:35]>> 17th of April.

[00:14:36]>> Yeah.

[00:14:37]>> 2026.

[00:14:39]>> You you introduce yourself as an acting >> secretary, not acting accounting officer.

[00:14:47]>> So, how long have you acted as the secretary? from uh for for the last April from 9th April >> which year >> to date this year 9th 2026 >> you have been acting as >> secretary to the commission.

[00:15:03]>> Secretary of the commission.

[00:15:04]>> Yes.

[00:15:06]>> And accounting officer.

[00:15:07]>> Yes sir.

[00:15:08]>> So you received appointment both as a secretary and accounting officer at once.

[00:15:13]>> First as acting secretary and later as accounting officer.

[00:15:19]Uh do you have the instrument appointing you as accounting officer?

[00:15:23]>> I do have the honorable chair. I I could you share with our clerk? I will share.

[00:15:28]I had not carried them with meable chair.

[00:15:31]>> Okay. And uh now that the what the colleague nearby chair I had about acting the accounting officer said he's acting and then he also said he's acting. How long have you been acting? Same question.

[00:15:58]Thank you honorable chair. I have been in acting position from APO to date that from from >> this year >> even the internal auditor I think the same >> now now you have also the instrument appointing you acting secretary and also acting director acting director no accounting officer the instrument appointing you acting secretary because it was so through that Now of course we are dealing with we are going to deal with the OT report 2024 2025 of course the position is once you appointed accounting officer you inherit all liabilities and the vote so you are duly accountable but I want also to draw members to article uh to article 164 of the constitution on accountability specifically article 1642 of the constitution. It provides that any person holding a political or public office who directs or concurs in the use of public funds contrary to existing instructions shall be accountable for any loss arising from that use and shall be required to make good the loss even if he or she ceases to hold that office. Now that we are destined to interrogate the audit reports for 2024 2025 be on to tell us who was the accounting officer.

[00:17:45]>> Honorable chair the accounting officer was Miss Margaret Lucang.

[00:17:52]>> Miss Margaret Lucang.

[00:17:55]>> Margaret Lucang.

[00:17:57]>> Ajang.

[00:17:58]>> Yeah.

[00:17:58]>> Is she still a staff of the commission?

[00:18:01]>> No. She left on the 9th of April, the very day I assumed the acting ship.

[00:18:07]>> By by saying left, you mean what?

[00:18:09]>> She retired.

[00:18:10]>> She retired from >> the commission service.

[00:18:13]>> From the commission service.

[00:18:14]>> Yes, please. She didn't resign. She retired.

[00:18:19]>> On the base of age.

[00:18:21]>> On the best of age.

[00:18:22]>> Yeah.

[00:18:22]>> Now I want to hear from the commissioners to be on the record.

[00:18:26]What happens where there's no chair person? How do you transact?

[00:18:33]Because now we you are we are here as commissioners.

[00:18:39]Just a follow-up question on from the chairs as you answer the question because some of the previous problems we've had as a commission even from the audit reports was that absence of a chairperson for two years in the past affected some of the workings the fundamental workings of the commission.

[00:18:59]So uh maybe as a followup try to answer that question uh because there seems to be a crisis of leadership to the health which speaks to the audit.

[00:19:11]Of course I I wouldn't want to call it leadership for now. We wait for their responses because from the from the uh the the accounting officer the chairperson is is in office but the chairperson has not come together with the commissioners. We want to hear from the commissioners. How do we arrive at this?

[00:19:41]you you you don't meet or communicate as commissioners because the law providing for the chairperson is the same law providing for the commissioners.

[00:19:50]How do we reach here where you you each one came alone for each alone? I want to hear from each commissioner. No one should represent the other.

[00:20:03]Commissioner Smail, you you are the first in the line.

[00:20:12]Yeah. Thank you chair and members.

[00:20:16]Honorable chair. I was invited in my capacity, in my personal capacity as a member of the commission. I got the invitation from the acting secretary and that's why I'm here.

[00:20:30]>> Yes sir.

[00:20:31]>> When you received the invitation, you didn't bother to consult the chair who was also in office.

[00:20:41]>> The truth of the matter took time without meeting my chairperson.

[00:20:45]>> How long?

[00:20:47]We just had the commission meeting on 4th March 2024.

[00:20:52]>> 4th March.

[00:20:53]>> 4th March 2024. So 2026.

[00:20:59]>> Huh?

[00:21:00]>> The the accounting officer has corrected me. It was 9th March 2026.

[00:21:05]>> 9th March >> 2026. That's why that's when I last interacted with her.

[00:21:11]>> Ordinarily, how often do you meet?

[00:21:14]and members we supposed to have a mass commission meeting. The commission meeting is the top a top management.

[00:21:24]This is on making body of the commission.

[00:21:28]Yes sir.

[00:21:28]>> So you are saying since March you have not had management meetings?

[00:21:33]>> Yes sir.

[00:21:34]>> You you are not meeting to the best of my knowledge >> but you are all you are all in office daily.

[00:21:40]>> Yes sir.

[00:21:42]>> No one speaks to each other. No, no. The last time >> are you on recording?

[00:21:48]>> We last met on 9th March 2026 as a commission meet as a commission meeting.

[00:21:55]>> Have you ever taken efforts to remind the chairperson or >> commissioners >> 9th March?

[00:22:03]>> Yes sir.

[00:22:05]>> Have you ever taken any efforts to remind your fellow commissioners or the chairperson that we should have meetings?

[00:22:10]Honorable chair member that is the procedial matter every month we have to meet the chairperson in >> now in your response in your capacity as a commissioner who is paid public funds you are in office and you earn maybe salad moments have you ever taken efforts on record reminding all right your fellow commissioners and the chair that we should have a meeting >> no sir I've not done that one because m >> no no no don't give the reasons >> no sir I should go Do you find it right?

[00:22:46]>> Obviously not right.

[00:22:50]>> Let's go to the other commission.

[00:22:51]>> Yes.

[00:22:58]Mr. M, you want to come in?

[00:23:03]>> Thank you, chair.

[00:23:05]From what I see, maybe I need to inquire from uh honorable Sam as to whether as a commission you've been submitting reports which is supposed to be one of your commandates to parliament those periodic reports because from what we see it's like you've not been sitting.

[00:23:31]Oh, you've been sitting but you don't speak to each other.

[00:23:38]Yes.

[00:23:41]And then honorable.

[00:23:43]Thank you, chair.

[00:23:46]Chair in in this situation I can we be meant to understand whether we are proceeding well without a chair person >> because now we seem to be posing questions directly to the commissioners who are going to tell us they do not have answers questions then in another situation where we do not have an accounting officer a ministers we have an acting secretary >> no we have the accounting officer >> but he has not given evidence chair you have asked for a letter at least to prove that he's an acting officer. He was given that mandate and he has not provided it. So chair I may may we may we understand whether we are proceeding well with uh the team that we have >> uh for for now we are proceeding well because this gives us an insight into Uganda home commission and will inform our mind as we decide on how to proceed with the audit report but given that we have the mandate to oversee equally the day-to-day ongoings of commission as an an entity and that these officers here appear in their joint and independent capacity. We are it is we we are fast tracking and getting facts uh before we can now pronounce ourself on how best to move with the team. So I think for now we are moving right and we shall see how how we go about with the entity after getting these facts. You cannot just assume honorable.

[00:25:25]Uh thank you chair chair our rules are very clear. We are supposed to interface with the accounting officer and when when there are critical matters to do with governance that's when we deal with the chairperson but there's one disappointment that I've got from the commissioners and the accountable officer they are not telling the Ugandans the truth what is happening in the commission because recently I was surprised I don't know whether these days when people are resigning they go to social media and they pronounce that now they have resigned because I remember those days when I was working resation would be a confidential matter but now these days I saw your chairperson pronouncing herself on the social media Twitter what that I've resigned I'm no longer the chair person but you're not telling us the truth what is happening uh honorable say that they last had a meeting in April March 9 to date it means that the commission is not functioning because if you are supposed to meet monthly and now four months down the road you are not meeting means that you are not performing and many Ugandans are waiting to see exactly what's the commission they even don't know whether you are existing or notable don't conclude maybe he was not invited we yet to hear from the other commissioners and then we shall establish honorable chair one one just one thing how many commissioners supposed to be there >> how many commissioners >> are they there and if are they all here and if they Not here. Where are they and who are they probably to have to have another picture of themselves there? I will answer that later. The question then wait him and then you >> uh thank you chair. I raised that matter before but it was not answered. I think it was guiding the proceeding. The first question I raised was what makes a Constitution of the commission and number two is the commission still functional otherwise it seems the every individual actually they working in silos can those questions be answered Mr. chairman I I think I I think let's first hear from the commissioners we cannot uh task them based on honorable su's response alone let's get from all the commissioners present then we can engage them as a team if so requires >> thank you chair chair you had permitted me to speak >> I permitted you okay thank you chair chair there are two things we are supposed to be dealing with now one is the audit audited report of the commission.

[00:28:19]Under the circumstances, we have an accounting officer. We just need to confirm his delegation and proceed.

[00:28:27]There are other issues. Chair of governance. The issues of governance we can only deal with the commission when it is fully constituted or when we have a representative of the chair. Chair I want to propose that the commissioners accept if they are part of the team of the accounting officer be asked to leave this meeting and return only when they have their chair we deal with the accounting officer and technical people I submit chair thank you I before before we can rule on that let's hear from them let's give them a fair hearing now that they here all the commissioners Uh thank you very much chairperson.

[00:29:15]Um the question one question I've had is what constitutes the Uganda Human Rights Commission?

[00:29:25]The commission is constituted by members and the chairperson.

[00:29:31]Now we are also aware that for a commission for the commission to be fully constituted it in there must be a chairperson at any one time and at least three members of the commission.

[00:29:48]So that is uh what would constitute the commission.

[00:29:54]Um the other issue is um >> I I I asked whe whether you have made effort to reach out to your commissioners and the chairperson to have your monthly management meetings and two how do you transact as as a commission as of now?

[00:30:22]>> Yeah, like my colleague said, "We last met in March as a commission, but as members, we have been undertaking activities, as members with the technical staff.

[00:30:38]We have gone on monitoring and inspections of prisons. We have engaged stakeholders in Ginger in Sori in Ha in Arua in LRA as members.

[00:30:54]>> So how do you decide how do you come come up with those activities? Do they require presence of a chair person? You sit as the commissioners or you are already approved.

[00:31:04]These ones these ones are already approved >> and it's not all commissioners or members that go because we are assigned they are commissioners who will go on this activity and that activity >> engagements.

[00:31:19]Okay.

[00:31:21]The the next commissioner, >> thank you chair person and thank you for being candid to ask us to say a few words and like to thank honorable Nang here.

[00:31:38]Yes.

[00:31:40]is saying you must be frank and say what it is other than I begin by chair I begin by adding on what honorable had said since April since March we have never had a commission meeting so in short there has been no activity of the commission in leadership but other technical officers at regions could be doing other work. So as a commission we have not been there and I last met also the chairperson on that day and then she proceeded on leave until I think almost the other day of resination which I had also in papers. I would like to say that while he was away, my colleague here, honorable Mara was acting for some time but at one time also commission was in Geneva and then there was nobody in between. So I I think these are some of the issues which we need to know. In short the commission we have been there individually. Uh but me I've been on leave. I took leave from June and my leave ended actually it ends today 22nd and I'm lucky to end my leave coming here. So the whole month and a half I've not been around but I've been hearing that or whatever I so in short as a commission uh we have not been there but but then other activities have been going on the issue of who is the commission what is the commission who are commissioners the chairperson and at least three members but now we are all six members except there's no chairperson so in There's no commission in this in this meeting.

[00:33:45]>> So all all the six received the instructions appointing you as commissioners.

[00:33:53]>> Yes.

[00:33:54]>> Yes.

[00:33:55]>> The instructions were from from >> the president.

[00:33:59]>> All of you may have a commission appointed by the chairperson. No conession to set the record very clear all of us the six members were appointed by the president with approval of parliament.

[00:34:15]>> Yes sir.

[00:34:16]>> Okay. Uhhuh. Let's hear from the the other commissioner.

[00:34:22]>> Thank you so much Mr. Chairman and members.

[00:34:26]Uh Mr. chairman, the president nominates their names, sends them to parliament to you to the appointments committee and then you give him a feedback.

[00:34:42]If they have all passed the vetting, then he issues the instruments of appointment.

[00:34:48]Uh Mr. chairman.

[00:34:51]There is uh what is called the Uganda Human Rights Act which talks of the chair to chair the committees to chair the commission.

[00:35:06]Yeah. To chair the commission. And we have also the rules that say that uh the chair is the only one who will chair the tribunals.

[00:35:20]So in this instance Mr. Chairman there is no way we can have tribunals without the chair chairing the tribunals.

[00:35:32]Initially it was an individual commissioner that would make it easier but having sought guidance from the attorney general he guided that is supposed to be a tribunal. So we sit four and the chair is the one who chairs and uh >> so meaning as of now if anyone files a complaint the human rights commission cannot handle because there's no one to chair or the one who can chair doesn't want to chair try to clarify in your own words >> according to the rules guiding the tribunals it is the chair who is supposed to chair those trials.

[00:36:16]So if there is no chair that means we cannot have tri dinners.

[00:36:22]>> So in simple terms whoever has a co has to wait until until the chair is around.

[00:36:30]>> Yes. Have you ever made efforts to remind the chair now that you also earn public funds in the salary andments? Have you ever made efforts to remind the chair to constitute meetings or conven?

[00:36:50]>> Uh we have been we have been talking to her to have tribunal meetings and uh commission meetings. But by talking you mean conversation or a letter?

[00:37:05]>> Not talking. And actually I've been engaging the acting secretary. He's here. He can actually assertain to whether what I'm talking is true to invite the commission meeting since it is mandating to him to call the commission meeting so that we can actually do the service.

[00:37:26]I I just want to get a very clear answer from the accounting officer. Has your chairperson resigned or not? Just give us a proper answer. Has she resigned or not? Has she written anything or it is just noise?

[00:37:44]I don't have any official communication to the effect that chairperson has resigned. I don't >> just follow up on that one. Uh Mr. Kamadik is your chair person in office physically.

[00:38:02]>> Yes, she was last today.

[00:38:06]>> Today is Wednesday.

[00:38:07]>> Wednesday. She was in office on Monday.

[00:38:10]>> Okay.

[00:38:11]>> Yeah.

[00:38:11]>> Chair I think for fairness let's hear from the last two commissioners then we engage them at once so that we can choose out who answers. we left with two.

[00:38:27]Uh thank you very much chair. Um I'll move under article 52 of the constitution that uh specifies the mandate of uh the Uganda human rights commission and uh which includes visiting and inspecting places of detention of course to assess conditions of a human rights nature and make recommendations.

[00:38:51]And I want to go on record to say that uh just taking a sneak peek into the last couple of months as a member of the commission and also with my colleagues. We've uh done quite a number of things in this regard. We have visited places of detention. Just last week alone we were in Kitaria. We went to camping rehabilitation center. We were in Nakasongola prison. We went to Machon uh bay prison in Rosa and uh we engaged inmates and people were detained in all these places. Uh the second mandate as per the constitution which no before you go into the mandate >> because we don't have the political head yet. We trying to assertain what we want to hear from you is whether you have heard from the chair person whether you remind the chair person how how do you trans how are you transacting like other commissioners try to restrain yourself on that before you go into the activities.

[00:40:01]Okay. Uh in terms of uh the commission meetings yes we last had one on the 9th of March.

[00:40:13]as has been stated by uh my colleagues and we haven't met had a commission meeting since then >> but that does not in any way >> have you have you taken efforts to to remind the chairperson or your fellow commissioners?

[00:40:29]>> No I have not taken effort remind the chairperson.

[00:40:33]>> Why? Because both the constitution and the Uganda Human Rights Act do not specify the regularity of commission meetings. Commission meetings are convened as and when we have a full agenda to attend to.

[00:40:54]That's according to you your appreciation of the law. Uh let's hear from the last commissioner.

[00:41:07]Yes. Oh my god. Sorry. I'm called I'm a former woman district in our commissioner. Uh thank you chair for the questions.

[00:41:20]It is just simple actually according to me since February we have >> so in a commission >> in March when they search they did invite you >> I think so >> it was much to me it looks like it has been years anyway >> yeah because this is a very important commission let us not downplay things >> and um not sitting for more than four months is a lot >> even is a lot.

[00:41:52]Actually by law we are also supposed to have a deputy chairperson whom we don't have that position is not filled at the moment because if it was maybe if the chair is away the deputy should be doing that role. So us not informing her like he said indeed she knows that she's supposed to be chairing this meeting since she doesn't have a deputy.

[00:42:15]>> By she you mean who? the chairperson >> of what?

[00:42:19]>> Of the Uganda Human Rights Commission.

[00:42:21]My boss.

[00:42:23]Um, well, >> you sound very concerned.

[00:42:32]>> Of course I am. I'm a citizen. I'm a citizen of Uganda and we have cases that we need to be to go to the tribunals.

[00:42:43]need to do these things where that a person is supposed to be and she is nowhere to be seen myself I >> but she's in office they told us she was in office on Monday did you did you pass by her office >> no me I haven't seen her since >> do you actually do you actually report to Uganda home commission offices >> yes I do >> when when when >> once in a while but recently there has not been much >> why because the person is not in office and and it is only 30 days where we are supposed to have a leave and she has had a leave forever.

[00:43:22]So she's not in office.

[00:43:25]>> Now let's get from the >> Yeah, I think we are proceeding like we're on a fishing expedition.

[00:43:37]We have an accounting officer here, chair, who is supposed to make your work easy. The accounting officer is supposed in my view to tell you how the operations of the human rights commission are governed. Do they have a charter? Do they have rules of procedure? Under those rules, what are they expected to do at the particular time?

[00:43:57]>> Be recording this this concern. You're going to respond to all.

[00:44:00]>> When they say the chairperson proceeded on leave, for how long was that leave?

[00:44:06]Who was acting in the absence of the chair? Did did we have did you have meetings during that time of the absence? Chair the one supposed to call the meetings of the commission is the accounting officer. Has he called a meeting and the chair has not showed up?

[00:44:20]I think we have a criminal in our in our presence and we are scattering ourselves going very far. Chair let's focus on where our mandate is. We will focus and get the detail of what actually the ro is within the commission and proceed on to the financial report that we have before us than being on a fishing expedition.

[00:44:40]Please take you're going to answer all.

[00:44:42]Yes.

[00:44:43]>> Thank you chair. Chair our purpose of being here is basically to help the commission function.

[00:44:50]Unfortunately in what I see there is no position of a deputy chair.

[00:44:58]uh it is basically chairperson and other members of the commission.

[00:45:03]Now where we are we've we are hitting a snag where the commission is not functional because the chairperson has put herself on resignation not formally but of course on social media.

[00:45:19]Now uh as my colleague has submitted earlier maybe we need guidance from the uh from the accounting officer in a scenario where the chairperson is not there how do we help the commission function I think that's what is most important Mr. Chair thank you >> yes let's go in the line yes >> thank you Mr. Mr. Chairman, it is very clear that there is a breakdown in the internal control for this commission and I think what we need to do is you see the chairperson has not resigned legally or on paper but in the effect she has actually resigned but she has remained in office. So for us what we need to do once we get the proper evidence we need to advise now on how best the commission can move in terms of its governance but now because the tone from the top this commission is supposed to be the the one setting the tone at the top now the tone is not there everybody is on their own we cannot even expect these things we're going to handle to be correct and actually you can see from the issues here you you can see clearly that there's something wrong. So what we need to do we we we we shall first deal with the governance matters but for now we can concentrate on the substantive matters with the accounting officer even if we don't send them away because still they will be part of the if we need to rectify anything they need to understand what we have discussed they can observe so that when we give recommendations they're able to implement with the accounting officer but we need a proper recommendation that this chairperson has absed from duty and must answer for not because she's earning effectively she's earning but she's not working that is how it is coming out yes we are following the line the all the hands may from what I'm seeing there's total confusion that And I'm seeing there is an accounting officer and acting director of finance who has just been there in in AP and some people are alleging the commission chairperson who was not there. So who put them in office and what happened?

[00:47:48]What was the procedure? We should go back. So I think we need more than fundamental issues from that commission than just coming here and talking these things here.

[00:47:58]And for that matter Mr. I suggest that we deal with the we partially deal with the audit issues but in the process we see they are not doing well we just tell them to go back they will come back when they ready say thank you uh thank you chair to me I've I've had two contradicting statements from the commissioner and the accounting acting accounting officer.

[00:48:36]The account the acting secretary says the commissioner the chairperson was in the office on Monday.

[00:48:47]Another commissioner says chairperson is on leave.

[00:48:52]So we need to learn from the acting secretary now that he he's so high in the office but they share because to the best of my knowledge when you are coming for such a an engagement you share with your chairperson acting secretary did you share because for you you were able to to see her in the office on Monday and Maybe chairperson you guide on the maybe the the filling of the gap of the deputy chair person.

[00:49:34]I think I shall request for your guidance.

[00:49:38]Maybe you make a recommendation. These all these commissioners I see in their faces they feel one of them if there's opportunity can be can can serve as a chair person I saw them coming independently and one of the and and since they came they opted to come I believe if there's opportunity and one is given acting chairperson and another one deputy The commission will be active submit.

[00:50:15]Yes.

[00:50:23]Forunate member of parliament from north. To my understanding work is ongoing in the commission like uh one commission has told us on some duties but like we also observed there is something they're not telling us. They also know that there is this unit among us but they wake up in the morning and they have an assignment to assignments to execute and they execute them.

[00:50:53]Meaning someone is coordinating them having realized that the commissioner the chairperson is not willing or is not ready to work though she's in the office and there is an assumption that she has resigned. So we should be able to get from you how from March since you last met how have you been conducting business who has been guiding you to car out those assignments. There has been a number of expenditures in the commission who has been authing those expenditures.

[00:51:25]How do you wake up in the morning, go on duty, the month ends, and you earn a salary when there's no chairperson to authorize or guide on how we should proceed for the next month? I submit chair.

[00:51:40]>> Thank you, chair. Once again, I'm Zaha MP chair. There seems to be a huge problem within the commission. Last week, honorable raised a matter of identity important to parliament to the house about the situation within the the commission that there were escalating problems and a rumor had it that a chairperson had resigned using her media handles. chair the attorney general rose up to that matter and gave a response that yes he heard about it but the president did not okay it so she's still in office so she's supposed to be in office chair that was in the house it is no longer a rumor who was there and honorable raised that chair maybe we need to dig further into this matter yes the honorable colleagues are suggesting that we handle the audit part since we have the accounting officer and uh let the governor side come back when they ready to with our chairperson chair. How do we help this commission to function to perform their duties?

[00:53:08]When you look at all the commissioners speaking, they're speaking from that point where they're all tired.

[00:53:16]That is what we are we are seeing when they are speaking and I don't think we can get any info from them that is upright for for us to consume as the committee. So chair please let's look at that and get the best way forward on how to handle this matter. Chair >> honorable what we are doing is is not just assisting them but assisting the commission and we can we cannot assist without information. want to uh to comment and advise on an informative position. I don't think they are tired as you said but they maybe they are concerned. Uh but >> if they were concerned chair they would have gone further to look for their their chairperson and dragged her here to come and answer questions.

[00:54:03]>> Let's hear from the other colleagues before before I turn to the witnesses.

[00:54:06]We can we can >> try to summarize >> for record purposes. I'm called I'm the woman member of parliament for Moroto district chair. I I have listened to the commission and is a evidence now that the governance of of the commission is is crippled because of u the continuous absence of the chairperson and also part of the commission members including the ones who were delegated to act went for their leave even those ones who were the rest also got leave and left the office.

[00:54:54]So the the the the absence of the chairperson informs us a lot and the refusal of the chairperson to turn up for this for this meeting informs us also a lot.

[00:55:16]I I know the few activities that took place that the commission says that they they were doing should have been guided by the technical officer because there's no way the commission alone can run without that chairperson and without the guidance of the technical officer to me I was in a view probably the the technical officer that is the accounting officer who actually helped this commission to do the activities it is that they said they were doing in the absence of the chaperson can partly inform us or can should be in position to inform us the infunctionality of the commission especially in terms of the meetings because the meetings didn't take place and yet the law says they have to take place monthly. Why didn't they take place? As much as the chairperson was not there, but of course you are the technical advisor to this commission.

[00:56:23]Please inform us why it didn't take place. And then chair probably would let these commissioners step out or even stay around listen to the the the audit queries that we're going to to get responses from the honorable >> because we don't need to let them just go like that. We have at least to call them once once more and even together with the chair person the chairperson has to be to be to be to be persuaded to come here in the in the in the event that she refuses to come then definitely it has to inform us that there's something wrong. it would guide us in terms of coming up with a solution on how to help this commission to function better. Thank you.

[00:57:20]>> Yeah, members, let's try to summarize our questions and concerns. Honorable.

[00:57:27]Thank you, chair. Mine is just a summary. Mr. Chair, in support of my colleague, the one who Bruce, honorable Bruce, honorable chair, I would request that we interface with the accounting officer. The issues before us are to do with accountability.

[00:57:44]If there are critical issues with governance, then we shall look for the chair who is still in office. The way the commissioners are talking, they are powerless. Actually to my understanding we should discharge them to go and maybe do other things especially my sister here who was talking as if she's crying. I had the commissioner here Kend last talking about visitation to detention facilities where there's no impact. You shouldn't have even brought that up. So to me I feel we should proceed to interface with the accounting officer since he's here before us and he has all the powers to interface with the committee. Thank you so much Mr. K. Yes. Who else was there >> the other side?

[00:58:37]>> Thank you chair.

[00:58:40]I have just two three things quickly.

[00:58:43]Number one, the law is very clear under article 164 on accountability.

[00:58:51]Any matter related to accountability, it is the accounting officer. The accounting officer is here. We should proceed and hear from him and the technical team on matters of accountability. My second point is that chair article 51 clause two the law is very clear the commission shall be composed of a chair person and not less than three other persons. The law is commanding and the appointment of any person is by the president of the republic of Uganda. So we don't have the mandate as parliament to actually appoint a deputy chair. My only political issue is we have seen the chairperson of the commission before go on social media ranting discrediting federal commissioners.

[00:59:46]How can we trust such a comm a a chairperson to work with these people?

[00:59:53]Indeed these commissioners you see here there are things that cannot be mentioned on camera but that chairperson I think undermines them from from social media. My second point is that the chairperson of the commission released a letter and I have a copy here chair with your permission I have posted it on our group dated 16th July 2026 tendering in resation later but equally we have the same chairperson still in office as per the words of the acting accounting officer. This means that the chairperson of the Uganda human rights commission should be on record that she's eating people's money, the public servants money, I mean Ugandan's money without proper justifications because all she's interested in is just being a social media maybe to tell people and confuse Ugandans that she has resigned yet she has not resigned. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the core mandate of the Uganda Human Rights Commission is simple to determine matters of human rights. When you look at the report, we the report is actually telling us to interface with the commissioners.

[01:01:19]Since the commission is not fully constituted, I beg that we only deal with matters of accountability for today. Then for commissioners we call them later on because we are just here wasting time. Thank you.

[01:01:33]>> Uh information some quick >> Mr. Chairman I think uh it should be made to be clear that this was not of resignation.

[01:01:47]>> No no >> it is not of resignation not resignation.

[01:01:51]Secondly the commission is still full. I I think we shall not interrogate a document submitted in that way. uh if if the member has the document can inform us of probably what happens there but we must receive it formally and and that's why we seek to to understand the whereabouts of the chairperson who probably would speak to any information that is out there including resignation and also probably substantiate uh all about that partial document about resignation. However, we pick interest and concern and it further requires us to assertain the whereabouts of the chairperson so that we substantiate whether the information of resignation is true or false and two if it if it's true why she's still in office. But but but for fairness, we are still interrogating and trying to establish why she's missing on this big delegation of the Uganda Humorist Commission. Was there any member left before I I turn to the witnesses?

[01:03:13]Chair, I am a firm believer in leadership and leaders and the fact that we seem to see or we know now there is a confusion in the leadership of the commission that has a trickle down effect on even the reports that we are going to look at. So it is my thinking that we first handle the leadership issues because they have an impact not just on this report but also on the core mandate of the commission itself. No wonder we are seeing what we are seeing in what they supposed to be in charge of because of leadership. Thank you.

[01:03:54]Then we come to >> information I wanted to inform him. I think the reports we're handling are for the other year while the commission was actually working well. So the ones which will be affected mostly are these ones now after 9th of when you had your last meeting 9th of March. So these ones we're dealing with 2024 they have no escape.

[01:04:16]Yes. I want to conclude and return here.

[01:04:19]>> Thank you chair.

[01:04:21]The situation seen here it is either one against many or many against one. This is what we are observing.

[01:04:29]However, I have the view that it's not good to proceed interrogating the report or handling the report when the chairperson is not here is a very substantive person in the commission and two we have not established whether that person refused to come or not.

[01:04:57]So I propose that we give an opportunity we give an opportunity to find ways of reaching out to the chairperson and see that she appears in the next sitting if possible. When she refuses then the committee can devise means to see how to proceed with the matters. I thank you Mr. Chairman.

[01:05:24]Uh yes honorable at extreme end.

[01:05:28]>> Yes sir. Thank you chair chair.

[01:05:33]Uh mine goes to the accounting officer because at first I remember when you were asking him whether the chairperson was aware about this engagement.

[01:05:52]He wasn't clear.

[01:05:55]I'm aware that the invitations were sent to their offices last week if I'm not mistaken.

[01:06:07]The same person is saying that he saw the chairperson on Monday. Remember we were supposed to meet on Tuesday, yesterday.

[01:06:19]I expect him as the accounting officer to must have engaged the chairperson on today's engagement.

[01:06:29]Before we even go further, can we get to know whether the accounting officer took his responsibility to communicate to the chair on today's engagement? Do we even waste our time? Because at first he was still darling. Then after some time he's saying that he saw the chairperson on Monday. Can we get to know whether he took time to notify the chair who was not in office before about today's engagement?

[01:06:59]Mo at the extreme end then I'll first pause there. Let let her finish.

[01:07:06]>> Thank you chair. I I want to add my voice on Dr. Alen is my name. I'm adding my voice to the one of concerning the governance issue here. The letter which is going around. We need to verify first of all whether it is authentic because we are we need to first verify the authenticity of the letter that was presented at the pro parliament and if it is so then we need to get legal advice on how we proceed. If a person send us in a resignation not to resign then it is refused. Can we force a person to remain in office? What happens there after cuz there is a guidance that we need to take up from there probably include in the report.

[01:08:09]Uh maybe before before I give another member I've I've been looking at the detailed trial balance within the reports. One of the concerning issue is that meetings and workshops alone for the previous year were at 3.1 billion meaning that a lot of money is accounted for under that number of meetings and and we are surprised to hear that these meetings don't actually sit. Of course we shall interrogate the whole year the 24 25 but you can see the concerning trend of interactions and meetings and it is also possible that much as they don't sit I don't think it is only the chairperson who is budgeted for for these meetings equally the commissioners and the other staff members so we we shall have to interrogate the details and uh in the circumstances before I turn here there are some colleagues who have joined us where is the moving microphone just to introduce themselves uh to be on the record. I want to offer them that advantage as members.

[01:09:25]Where is they moving or you can borrow from honorable honorable chair and Honorable chair and colleagues, honorable colleagues, I'm Dr. Batimoth Rousella, member of Parliament, Ginger Southwest and a member of this committee.

[01:10:03]Thank you, chair. My name is Alex Nonawa. I'm a member of parliament of South Kisuro district and a member of this committee. Thank you.

[01:10:16]Thank you chair. My name is Bruce Vava Kavasa, member of parliament Rubanda County West, member of this committee.

[01:10:26]I I I think before I turn here now, the accounting officer, we we are we are now in a dilemma.

[01:10:35]First of all, you are in acting capacity as a secretary to the comm to to the commission to the commerce commission.

[01:10:44]But needless to say, you introduce yourself as the accounting officer.

[01:10:50]Members have raised concerns before we take we we give a ruling and guidance on these matters.

[01:10:57]Equally, the commissioners alluded to some tasks you ought to do. For example, I heard that you you you are supposed to remind or constitute these meetings. Try to clarify uh in line with absence of the chairperson of the commission. Have you done your role as the accounting officer? What have you done and what will be your quick response to all these concerns raised?

[01:11:27]>> Uh very much honorable chair. First of all, I would like to clarify uh there's the honorable member who said I wasing that I was not clear. With due respect to honorable chair, I was very clear at the very beginning and at no point have I.

[01:11:48]Secondly, there's a member who asked about the absence of the chair who has been in charge. It is on record the chairperson took leave from 2nd Apo up to the 29th of May and throughout those two months the honorable member of the commission honorable lame Mara was acting chairperson and he was directing the affairs of the commission until the substantive return. So the activities that were being conducted were duly authorized under the leadership of the acting chairperson.

[01:12:30]Second on the issue of commission meetings.

[01:12:34]Honorable chair, even the letter inviting us to your honorable committee is to the effect that the the committee leadership has instructed.

[01:12:48]The meetings of the commission are chaired by the commission sorry by the chairperson. I cannot convene a meeting where the chairperson has not instructed me. I can't I don't have the powers to chair that meeting.

[01:13:03]So in essence there is no way I could have convened a meeting in the absence of the chairperson and without >> leave alone the absence I believe the the rules and conduct of meeting can can there's room for member commissioners to choose from among themselves