EvilDEA vs Steve Kaufman - Who is correct about this?

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]Hey noble ones. Welcome to Metatron Academy. So today we've got a fight on the ring. Evil deer versus Steve Kaufman. Let's go. Who am I going to agree with? What's up grinders? Welcome back to the channel. Today we're going to be doing a react to a video from Steve Kaufman. Why massive input beats flash cards every time. So this one was recommended to me in the Discord and of course it's input verse flashcards. This is a war that has been going on since the dawn of time. So let's see what he's got to say because he's obviously picking a side. Now, normally I don't watch Steve videos. Steve videos.

[00:00:31]Normally, I don't watch videos from him just because, well, if you look up in the top lefthand corner, they're all just to promote his product, but it looks like he's picking a side in this epic war that's been going on forever.

[00:00:40]So, >> I'm actually curious to see. So, I'm going to listen to both positions and then I'll tell you if I agree with Eldia, with Steve, or if or with neither, or if I agree with my commod.

[00:00:49]>> Let's hear what he's got to say.

[00:00:50]>> Today, I want to talk about flash cars.

[00:00:54]>> Bro, is it just me or is he has he got cataracts? Like >> I can see his right pupil, but his left pupil's really milky looking. E >> versus massive input.

[00:01:04]>> It could it could just be the lighting.

[00:01:06]>> But I don't remember this being a thing the last time I saw his videos.

[00:01:10]>> And what have I learned about, >> bro? Now I can't unsee it. Now I can't unsee it. Maybe it's just Maybe it's just me. Like this is not even the point of the video. His health is not your issue. I hope he's okay, though.

[00:01:21]>> Yeah.

[00:01:21]>> Why one works or the other words? Flash cards have quite a history. Even in the 17th century, there was a famous educator called John Amos Kmenius who developed a form of flashcard for, you know, connecting words to pictures uh to be used in education. John Stewart Mill apparently used flashcards to learn Greek with the word, you know, the Greek word on one side and the English word on the other. And then the flash cards moved to a >> Okay, I swear to God, it's me. I'm not even talking about his like pupils now.

[00:01:55]He seems to be slower like in his speech cadence. I'm I have to watch a video an older video from him after this because >> I mean the guy is kind of old. So it's possible that his health is deteriorating.

[00:02:06]>> This has got me really curious. form of space repetition system. And in the 19th century, Ebing House did some research on the memory curve and how soon after first encountering an item, a word or whatever it might be, one should ideally meet that again and again.

[00:02:23]>> That one is a little controversial by the way on how scientific it is.

[00:02:28]>> And he developed this ideal frequency to relearn something before we forget it.

[00:02:32]And in 1972, a German called Lightner wrote a book called So Lman Lean.

[00:02:39]>> For the linguists down in the um comment section, let me know. We all see this uh let me just bring it up again.

[00:02:47]>> A German called Lightner wrote a book called So Lman this ideal freak.

[00:02:52]>> Okay, so we've all seen this before this graph. Okay, this is you know what Anki is based on. Has there been any recent research on this forgetting curve >> or?

[00:03:02]>> Yes, I looked into it because as part of the research of my own book and it seems like it's been debated. It's not as strongly supported anymore.

[00:03:12]Uh maybe will require a dedicated video, but yeah, there is it's kind of not as sound as it as it sounds. I mean, I guess as it's put out to be. Are we still basing all our research on something, you know, that's over 100 years old or whatnot? Like, I'm I'm kind of curious. I want to know because I actually learn a lot from the linguists in my community, okay? Because they they always comment down below and they give me the the newest goths and I don't have to go read it. Like I don't have to go read the articles. So, I'm actually kind of curious if this has like if this is still current science to relearn something before we forget it.

[00:03:46]And in 1972, a German called Lightner wrote a book called So Lentman Lannon describing how, you know, learning was like a filing cabinet. And and I remember reading the book and I thought it was very interesting. And it introduced again this idea of space repetition according to a certain formula. And this was then taken further.

[00:04:08]>> It's overhyped >> uh in the late uh you know the 1990s with uh >> I'm going to have to speed him up. The speed is it's not working for me guys.

[00:04:18]>> Thank you. That's fine. One and a half >> algorithms and Wnjak of uh super memo and Anki and so forth. So it's very much a mainstream part of language learning.

[00:04:29]But another mainstream part of language learning is compelling input massive input. And I want to look at these two based on my recent discovery of the thoughts of Jeffrey Hinton, godfather of AI, and how when he explains how we learn. And the fact is that we learn through developing everexpanding, ever richer networks of experience that contribute to what we understand, what we learn, and in the case of language, what we were able to produce in the language. So one problem with flash cards and space repetition which is a refinement of flash cards is that their focus is on sort of tying one item to one item rather than on developing everexpanding networks of >> yeah I am already I want to hear what he's going to say but to me you you don't have to just say the single word you can absolutely place it inside a sentence and that's how I think most people utilize the flashards rather than just saying dog in or go whatever whatever the heck and that's it. Then you make a sentence with it. Right, >> Steve? My man, you you realize this is not how people just use flash cards. And in fact, this is not even I don't see anyone who promotes the use of let's say Anki or flash cards >> in this modern day and age actually promoting onetoone pairings.

[00:05:43]>> Exactly.

[00:05:44]>> Like this is not what we do. Like if you watch my videos, you'll never see me promoting a onetoone pairing. And I talk about often why you should not do that in the language space. And in fact, it's you could apply that to pretty much any space. So I think this is a you problem if this is how you think flash cards are being used because this is not what I recommend >> because he doesn't use them.

[00:06:05]>> In fact, like flash cards nowadays, a lot of people will use uh either audio flash cards uh which include the word that they want to focus on in context in a sentence so that they can hear it in context or they'll use closed deletions so they can actually try and figure out what the word that is missing based on the context. We we always include context.

[00:06:23]>> Yeah, that's why I actually paused him and then I told you what I was going was going to think and then as you see we're thinking the same way rather than letting him speak and then tell you, yeah, exactly. They need to be put in a sentence and then you're like, "Yeah, but did you actually think that or are you just agreeing with him?" No, I said it on purpose before I listened to him because it's the normal like it's deductive logic. It's understanding how to use memorization correctly and in a way that is apt to retain vocabulary and learn it within context. Absolutely.

[00:06:54]>> So this is just this is a misrepresentation of how to actually use flashcards and it sounds like it's based on those guys from over 100 years ago.

[00:07:02][laughter] I know you're old, my man, but come on. We've moved beyond that point of >> knowledge and of experience. So a flash card is kind of an artificial >> Wait, that that's it. That's >> that's it to him.

[00:07:12]>> That was the entire reason why. Okay, there must be more coming up.

[00:07:14]>> Official retrieval experience. An isolated retrieval experience.

[00:07:19]>> It's >> Yeah, it doesn't need to be. You could literally get the flash card, learn your your word, and then use it on chat with that native. Literally, it's uh >> Steve, my man, what are you doing?

[00:07:34]>> Yes.

[00:07:34]>> No. I can't believe this is coming from a place of honesty. No one uses flashcards like this. where you try to remember this one thing. It's like again Lightner's filing cabinet. What it is you're trying to remember is located in >> based on the filing cabinet model treats memory as storage retrieval, but that's not how the Oh my god. Okay. A good use of flash cards basically takes input and in fact it doesn't even have to be input. It you could play you could do input, you can do output, you can do everything with flash cards. Okay. But I guess the problem is the the idea of a flash card and what we remember from like primary school when you just do those little paper cards. Okay. But the point of a flash card is to give you focused CI comprehensible input with one component missing and the remaining components you all understand to help train your brain on in a focused manner upon whatever word or structure you're trying to learn. Okay. It basically takes a whole heap of input and just focuses in on a certain section of that input. That that's what you should do.

[00:08:38]Like just go watch any of my Anki videos on this channel. I've made multiple different ones. I've even made my own programs before. Like this is just a misrepresentation of flashards >> in a particular place in your filing cabinet. And as Hinton explains, we don't learn that way. We don't learn. We don't go to a specific location. Every exposure to a range of information is an opportunity to enrich our connection. We wait certain things.

[00:09:01]>> And why are we doing input versus flashcards? Realistically, >> because you should be doing both.

[00:09:07]>> Both. Yeah.

[00:09:07]>> Like, you should be doing like, okay, I don't I got to be careful my words here.

[00:09:12]If you're going to do this in the most optimized way possible and it works for you, then doing both is the smart thing to do. Okay? Because if you do the flash cards, it allows you to get words into your noggin as fast as possible and then the input basically cements it and helps you understand all the various different ways those words are used. So one helps it get in and the other reinforces it.

[00:09:36]>> Yeah. And you can do it in any way. You could do the input first and then the flash card exercise or you can start with a flash card exercise and then add the input for reinforcement. Either way works.

[00:09:47]>> That that's the whole point behind flashcards. Yeah. We ei put more weight on different aspects of what we're learning and out of that becomes a richer and richer sense of >> isn't like I've never really used link Q but isn't flashards like a part of it like isn't there a whole section for it that's like flash cards like why are we creating this straw man right now >> of network of web of connections that enables us to learn so the question becomes do we want to have this specific association with a specific word and its meaning or do we want to expand this network do we want to develop our natural ability to recognize patterns.

[00:10:21]And it's the latter that >> you can even do the whole pattern recognition thing. I often do like I don't create just one flash card per word and like just one word in context.

[00:10:30]Okay, >> I could I I generally create a minimum of six. That way I can cover all the main different types of uh let's say templates that might appear in the most common ones. Okay, so the again you don't have to just do one. You could do as many as you could have [ __ ] 60 flash cards for one verb in all those different possible contexts if you want.

[00:10:52]And then that allows you to focus in on all those different contexts rather than just trying to consume hundreds of hours of input or read, you know, book after book to try and figure it out in all its different context.

[00:11:02]>> Yeah. Basically, the flashards allow you to work with organized chaos because otherwise the kind of words you're going to be naturally exposed to will vary very much will vary depending on the situation in which you're in. So of course, if you live in another country, then that's great. It basically automatically presents a lot of different words in different scenarios and creating memories and experiences.

[00:11:20]But for the majority of people, they can't go and live in the other country.

[00:11:23]And so it's good to use the flash cards because you select, you select, you have like I got this, I've got these like 100, 200 words I really want to work on.

[00:11:30]I just can't remember them. Put them in the flash card, create a deck, um, shuffle it, and then you can use them to be like, "Oh yeah, that word. Oh yes, I remember how to read it. I remember how to write it." Because you can do that, too. Or like, "Oh, I know. I don't remember. How is this pronounced? You could even do it with pitch accent, for for instance, or tone recognition, tones, memorization. So, flash cards are not even just above vocabulary. It's insane. But, uh, it it allows you because you make the conscious decision first and then you use random chance through through shuffling to see which ones you get exposed to. It's excellent.

[00:12:03]I mean, flash cards are great. There's nothing wrong with them. Is it the most important thing? No. But it is great. So yeah, it's actually more effective based on Hinton's analysis and based on my experience. So according to Hinton's understanding of how we learn, the retrieval of a flashc card item is a different cognitive activity than exposing oneself to a variety of content with different people, different emotional connection, different lexical or or grammatical connection, all of which is enriching your ability to understand the material. So rather than memorizing pairs or rules, you're expanding your sense of >> what is this memorizing pairs or rules.

[00:12:44]What's that got related to?

[00:12:46]>> I think he's talking about grammar. Like to say, uh, just studying grammar is bad. Which fine, but >> okay. Isolated from context. No rhythm, intonation, emotion, or grammatical patterns. Just a bare pair.

[00:12:57]>> Yeah. But he says it's a problem with flashcard. It's not >> exactly.

[00:13:01]>> No.

[00:13:03]>> This is not [laughter] correct. Yeah.

[00:13:04]>> Oh my god. I'll give you guys a quick example. Okay. So, as you can see, I've got three different decks going at the moment. And every time I probably show Anky in my videos, it looks a bit different because I like to play around with it and try out different things and different ideas. But, as you can see, I've got a listen deck, a production deck, and a reading deck. Okay. So, if we just go to the listen. So, like I got to arrive in 15 minutes. When will you leave? You know, uh, okay. So, I can't eat the eggs. I'm allergic to eggs.

[00:13:30]Okay. And then I can't eat the shrimp.

[00:13:32]I'm allergic to shrimp. I can't eat the peanuts. I'm allergic to peanuts. I can't eat the fish. I'm allergic to fish. Okay. Do you see the commonality between these sentences? I'm just swapping out the noun, but they're in context. Okay. So, these words here, I'm not just learning eggs by itself. And on the front, I've just got audio. Okay.

[00:13:50]Now, if we go to the other decks, so if I go to my production deck, I probably got some similar sentences in here somewhere as well. Okay.

[00:13:59]As you can see, I've been trying out some stuff in here. Uh, these decks are pretty new. Um, where is it?

[00:14:07]Okay. Well, I've got the same type of stuff in here, okay? In the production deck. And then if I go into the reading deck, I got the same type of [ __ ] in here as well. Okay. And this takes me 20 minutes to go through all this. And I do 30 cards a day. Okay. And I'm just playing around with a new idea at the moment. I literally just set this up maybe about a week ago, I think. But no matter whenever I've showed Anky on this channel flashcards, okay, every time I've shown Anki on this channel, I've always shown how to learn things in context. It's never just individual.

[00:14:36]>> Yeah. Basically, what he's doing is the he's he's using the kind of analysis and counter arguments that you use against those people that simply use lists of words. So like a list of words on a piece of paper, extremely boring. You just read it, you memorize nothing.

[00:14:53]Yeah. Is one of the least effective that and then some forms of rope memorization don't really work very well either when it comes to actually acquiring vocabulary for language learning that you need to be able to get back on the spot. But regardless, that's what he's attacking. But he's calling it flash cards. But flash cards are not used these ways by anyone who knows how to use them words. You can probably claim, okay, if I go into here and I go back to some of those beginning ones, every second Sunday, maybe you can claim that is an individual word, but it's not because that's actually made up of several different components. I'm actually learning a chunk.

[00:15:29]>> Cool, cool, cool. Let's see what else he's going to say.

[00:15:33]>> Okay. And grammatical patterns, as you saw, I had a pattern. Okay. So, the pattern for being allergic. So, none of this is true >> of the rhythm, the intonation, the range of meaning of words. It's a much more complex expanding connection with the language which the sort of isolated retrieval of a flash card item just doesn't do that. It's much much more limited. Another thing is massive input means just that massive input. If you spend an hour with flash cards, how many flash cards are you going to do? 100 maybe a few more than that 150. Whereas in >> how is that low volume? [laughter] Holy sh that's low volume. same hour spent with mass input of content, you are exposing yourself to significantly more massively >> and you will not remember the majority of it because input alone does nothing almost does a little bit helps with sometimes pronunciation and rhythm and of course you practice your ability to listen if it's at an appropriate level.

[00:16:29]That's an important thing to say. But you can you can expose yourself to 10 hours of input if you don't speak. You will never learn those words and you will never be able to use them like this without even having to think and like retrieve. I don't know what this guy's on. I mean, I'm sorry, Steve. I just called him this guy. But here we are. If it's nons nonsense, I don't care if the pope said it.

[00:16:51]>> More words, connections, inferences, grammatical patterns.

[00:16:55]>> Yeah, but you're making a massive mistake here. And what you're promoting, okay?

[00:17:00]>> Cuz I've tried both routes. I'm literally learning Spanish by pure input. And then for Chinese, I'm doing a lot of flash cards with some input.

[00:17:08]Okay. So the difference here is that with flashc cards, you're actively engaging. You're act like with every single word that pops up. Okay. That's why it can become a bit of a session like almost a bit of a mental workout.

[00:17:22]But with input, you're kind of skimming over a whole heap of stuff and you get some things here and there. Like I've shown that uh through my Dreaming Spanish series that sometimes you need to see words hundreds of times before they even settle into your brain. And sometimes they still don't settle. True.

[00:17:38]>> Okay. And it takes a [ __ ] flash card to get them in there. [laughter] >> Like >> and and I'm not saying you shouldn't do input and I'm not saying you shouldn't do flash cards. I'm saying they work.

[00:17:47]They they complement each other. They work.

[00:17:49]>> They complement each other. And I would give this is the suggestion that I gave on on my on my book. If you're interested, I'll put a link in the description to the crowdfunding. But, uh, on my book, I said it's at least 6040. 60% input, 40% production at least. At least, and you can swap that after you go out, you get into the intermediate range. Then you can go 60% production, 40% input.

[00:18:18]That's what I suggest in my experience.

[00:18:21]>> Great together. Like why would you not do both in my brain? Unless you are just you just do not like flash cards. Fine.

[00:18:28]That's fine. Don't do it then. Or if you like input, you can just do flash cards if you really want. Like it was [ __ ] it'd be a bad way of doing it, but like not a good idea. Okay.

[00:18:38]>> And also some of the critiques here around intonation and all that type of stuff type of stuff. That's only true if you've got audio to go with the input.

[00:18:47]Okay. So like at the moment he's not showing audio. He's just showing breeding. Now, I believe link Q does have actual audio, but I'm just pointing that out.

[00:18:55]>> And all the while, you are simultaneously updating the waiting of different items in your web of connections that relate to that language, constantly being renewed every time you're listening and reading. But you need a lot of it. And it's only the massive listening and reading that gives you the quantity of connections to the language that are going to help you learn the number of words.

[00:19:15]>> Now, you need to speak back. I completely disagree with him. I disagree with him 100%.

[00:19:21]>> That you can connect to in flashcard review.

[00:19:23]>> Okay, this is my assumption based on my experience. Okay, I have no science to back this up. So based on doing 900 hours of just Spanish input versus what I've done with Chinese and flashcards and input. Okay, I think if you did just pure input and then you did flash cards like Okay, let me explain this better.

[00:19:47]If you did just a pure input approach and then you did an input/ flashcard approach, the input/ flashcard approach would be about three times as fast as just the input approach.

[00:19:58]>> Probably more than that. I'll be honest with you, probably more than that.

[00:20:02]Particularly if it's someone who doesn't have direct experience and has already someone who hasn't reached fluency in in another language, then you're going to be you're going to need more than that.

[00:20:11]>> Okay? I have no numbers to back that up.

[00:20:13]This is just based on my experience with two separate languages, >> but >> Right. And that's what I mean. Like he's already fluent in Espiranto. He speaks Chinese. Well, uh he's working on Spanish. He has experience. Someone without experience and they just do comprehensible input without speaking for like a year.

[00:20:33]nothing like and then you compare them to a student who does production whichever version is whether it be through flashcards whether it be something else production plus input so less input than the guy who does only input but adds a lot of production to it he'll be 10 times better 10 times better that's what he will be someone who actually speaks with a foreigner with a native whereas the other guy he'll be like u uh uh uh uh with with horrible pronunciation that's how it's it's going to be anyways thank you very much. If you want to see the rest of the video and see what other opinions he has, I'll give him a like, click the link in the description or the pinned comment to go and finish the view uh finish the rest of the video. About half of it we watched so that we can give the the view and everything to him. But so far, 100% I agree with him and I disagree with Steve Kaufman. I think he's losing the edge a little bit. But it is what it is.

[00:21:27]I mean, to to each his own. Not an attack on the person, it's an attack on the argument. Thank you for watching.