DEMOCRATIC GOVERNANCE UNDER ATTACK - VICE PRESIDENT UGANDA LAW SOCIETY

[00:00:00]media. We are most honored to have with us the vice president of the Uganda Law Society, Mr. Anthony Assim.

[00:00:10]Uh today we have uh paid a courtesy call to the Uganda Law Society here in Kamwokya.

[00:00:19]And we are going to be talking about a number of issues. First of all, uh the vice president will allude to us and to the country at large about the state of human rights in Uganda, in the country, and how what efforts have they put in place to see that the status quo changes.

[00:00:41]Mr. Anthony Assim, you are most welcome to the meeting.

[00:00:45]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[00:00:48]>> What is the state of human rights in our country?

[00:00:52]>> Um I must say we are living during um difficult times, unfortunate times.

[00:01:02]Uh in a state where we are seeing heavy involvement of the military, militarization of every system in Uganda, militarization of every institution where there's total disregard and disrespect for the rule of law and uh constitutionalism.

[00:01:25]Um This time we are seeing, you know, things beginning to threats.

[00:01:34]>> Yes.

[00:01:35]>> Very many to see actual things happening.

[00:01:39]At the beginning of this week we were shocked to see the manner in which one of our members, uh Mr. Assim Kwoyelo, was Yes, was violently abducted from his home, breaching his right to privacy as provided in the constitution, turning him in his bedroom in front of his wife and children is abducted his disappeared and this is the military involved you know heavily armed and then you see [snorts] the CDF a few minutes bragging about it saying I have this money my best mate is learning his why he sharing but images you know trying to this degrade the person of Elias Lukwago This is not just a lawyer is a former lord mayor is a former MP is even head of the party political party is called Forum for Democratic Change being treated like that in such a manner and as a country we're expected to normalize that This is not the first time in much as you are saying this is the direct attack on the legal profession we've seen threats before the same CDF threatening lawyers you remember Caleb who was representing his client among they on on on X the man is threatening saying I do not expect to see any lawyer representing these people I'll deal with them We've seen other lawyers being arrested in the course of their work Kato Lubwama similar the day I went to visit at Magere see Bobi Wine he was there he was arrested and chased away >> Yes as you also said what should be the procedure what should the the CDF what procedures should the CDF follow in if he wants to uh ex- to to to extend his uh >> Nu- number one if the CDF has an issue with anyone we have laid down procedures in the constitution and the police act anyone is suspected of having committed an offense there should be due process there should be summoned to police if he appears at police he gives a statement even if if he chooses not to go that is the only time the police can probably go and get him but even if you are to arrest someone you have to go and get an arrest warrant issued by court and you go and arrest the person but the first step should have been to summon this person and this should be the role of police. The constitution is very clear it has separated these institutions. The army has a different role all together to protect Yeah, the boundaries of Uganda not to get involved into civilian aspects.

[00:04:09]>> So, you are trying to say that the army is into is a is trespassing.

[00:04:14]>> The army is in the role that they are not supposed to is intruding into civilian affairs where they should not be involved.

[00:04:20]>> Oh, we expect to see the army only when Uganda is at war or when they are boarding when they are protecting the borders of the country when we have a threat coming in. We do not expect to see the army participating in civilian aspects like politics, civilian affairs like civil courts. And these matters because it is completely wrong, it is overstepping and we are seeing militarism. That is why if you remember the beginning of the year while holding our separate opinion with the new lawyer here because the judiciary had not invited us as usual since they have started on that from the previous year.

[00:04:56]We warned the country. We warned the members and said we have a big challenge of practicing law amid military rule.

[00:05:02]We are literally in a military rule where the country is being is being run, it's operating on a state of emergency like situation where we see the army coming into civilian affairs. You've seen the abductions, the disappearing of people.

[00:05:17]We've seen the ones involved in uh um you know, abducting political activists. You see the the statements the CDF is giving. I remember when we were going to hold the election. The CDF and other senior army officers are giving directions on how our election should be conducted. Everyone should vote and go home. That is not their role. They shouldn't be doing that.

[00:05:36]>> Uh Mr. Asimwe, uh the Lord Mayor happens to be the the the head of the legal team for Dr. Besigye who is currently in prison?

[00:05:47]Uh What offense, according to you as a lawyer, did he commit?

[00:05:55]>> Well, um under normal circumstances, um we'd look at this as a joke.

[00:06:02]Because number one, we know Elias Lukwago is the lead lawyer for Honorable Robert Kyagulanyi. [clears throat] >> Who is being charged with the offense of treason?

[00:06:10]>> Yes. And uh his case has been ongoing in court. The DPP has already uh you know uh given the disclosed the necessary evidence to the defense counsel, including Elias Lukwago. And then you see this threat by the CMI, successfully see Mr. Lukwago being abducted, then he appears out of nowhere. Police have just taken him to court and charged with an offense of misprision of treason. And the the implication of that offense is that you got information, you got some information that is in your knowledge that a person who is uh planning to commit treason is planning to and you failed to disclose that information. Now, look at this stupidity. This is a lawyer representing uh Dr. Kizza Besigye. Not only Elias Lukwago has been his lawyer.

[00:06:57]>> Yes.

[00:06:57]>> And you're saying he's just being charged with treason, but his lawyer is being now charged with misprision of treason, failure to give this information.

[00:07:05]>> Yes.

[00:07:05]>> Under the Advocates Act, advocate every advocate owes a client a duty of secrecy. You cannot go and begin sharing information regarding your client with the public or the >> Even if it were true.

[00:07:15]>> The same applies to a doctor.

[00:07:17]>> There is that protection.

[00:07:18]>> Even us lawyers we protect our sources.

[00:07:20]>> Exactly. It is against all the principles of professional ethics.

[00:07:23]>> Yes.

[00:07:24]>> So now, are you going to say that Ugandans all lawyers in Uganda should stop practicing law? Are you going to stop practicing law because all the people who represent And remember these people are entitled to legal representation, a right to a fair hearing and a fair trial in Article 28 of the Constitution provides for someone to have legal representation.

[00:07:41]>> Yes.

[00:07:42]>> So, in essence, you're saying people should not get lawyers to represent them because if your lawyer represents them, then they're also going to be accused.

[00:07:50]And if you look at the IBS standards and the UN basic principles on the independence of the legal profession, these instruments are very clear. Even our constitution, a lawyer cannot be connected, cannot be in any way attached to his client. I'm simply offering my legal representation.

[00:08:06]>> Where does this put the independence of the judiciary and the even the law profession?

[00:08:11]>> Of course, we are seeing this as a direct attack on the legal profession in this country, a direct attack on the independence of the legal profession, the threats, the intimidation, and the constitution is also clear under Article 42. Everyone has a right, every citizen has a right to practice his profession without any interference, intimidation, or, you know, any kind of interference from anybody.

[00:08:33]>> Yes.

[00:08:33]>> But specifically for the legal profession and the justice sector, this is worrying because imagine the man's offense was attempting to serve the CDF with court papers. These court papers are not signed by him, they're issued by court. Some of them are issued by court and some of them are by a judicial officer.

[00:08:49]>> Were there other other channels through which uh areas of government could use to serve the CDF?

[00:08:57]>> You see, under normal circumstances, there are clear procedures. Let's Let me remind you uh during the the presidential the debate on the presidential term limits in Mbarara, the former CDF then was also I think Mwozi. Yeah. The the the the one who was the CDF then was served with summons, and he appeared.

[00:09:16]>> Okay.

[00:09:17]>> He appeared in court and he testified and he left. They didn't take anything from him.

[00:09:20]>> No.

[00:09:21]>> These are things that are provided for in the constitution. Let's forget that no one is above the law.

[00:09:25]The constitution we have, which is what we live by, it is over 30 years of age, and there are clear procedures. No one is above the law, we must follow the law. So, there should be no excuse whatsoever.

[00:09:35]>> time lawyers in this country have been abducted because of such an offense?

[00:09:40]>> Um You know what worries me is the history of where the first we've seen lawyers being abducted before. Even Elias Lukwago himself it's not the first time uh due to his uh you know political affiliation we've seen him go through this kind of struggle, this kind of hustle. And uh we know he's a strong man.

[00:10:00]>> Yeah.

[00:10:00]>> But what is worrying is the trend that is taking us back.

[00:10:04]>> Okay.

[00:10:04]>> I don't know if you've read uh Samuel Odonga Otto's book. Yeah, The Betrayal.

[00:10:09]>> He was my MP.

[00:10:10]>> You can see exactly what was happening during the Amin regime. But regime these are the things that we are seeing now.

[00:10:15]When you're reading a book you think it's a movie. Unfortunately we are seeing these things happen during our time. In this damn era we are still having these things where people are being abducted and mistreated.

[00:10:24]>> Even even they formed the our first Chief Justice, our first black Chief Justice was abducted.

[00:10:30]>> Exactly. So probably our concern is again you asked whether this is the impact on the independence of the legal profession and the judiciary.

[00:10:39]Our challenge is that the judiciary, the DPP, all these government institutions that also have lawyers by the way, much as they are government lawyers, that should be standing in the gap instead on the same side of the oppressor. Because you cannot tell me that this person who has been abducted, you see how he's looking like he's sickly, he's suffering, he's produced before a court. That judge is sanctioned by the DPP.

[00:11:03]He's a lawyer.

[00:11:03]>> Yes.

[00:11:04]>> And that judge is read by judicial officer, a magistrate. Why people make a prayer and say let's take this man to hospital, he's doing badly. And the magistrate says no, remanded to prison.

[00:11:13]So they are somehow look at it as a connivance. Probably what is going to wake them up is if one of them is is picked.

[00:11:22]And I can assure you that is about to happen with the trends we are having.

[00:11:25]>> Okay.

[00:11:25]>> But we are calling upon them. That's why you saw yesterday I had to even have to write the DPP and say please do your job. You have a constitutional mandate to protect the citizen. That's your role.

[00:11:34]>> Initially, you gave a 24-hour ultimatum to free Elias.

[00:11:40]And now we are in I think we are in He was produced in court. He was not given bail.

[00:11:45]Uh you are you are tried of course different channels. He's still in custody.

[00:11:51]So, where are you What what's next as you guys have said?

[00:11:55]>> No, the time we gave we wrote a protest note to the CDF and they legal UPDF. In our protest note, we had demanded that he should be produced within 24 hours from wherever he was. That time no one knew where he was. We were just seeing, you know, photos and and and social media social media. But we demanded We had about four demands. Our first demand was that he should be released, he should be allowed access to his family, lawyers with immediate effect. Uh but we had also made a demand that the UPDF should come out clearly.

[00:12:24]Yeah, and make it clear publicly that they will stop interfering with civilian affairs and the practice of law and independence of the legal profession. We also made a demand to the Chief Justice and the Attorney General to come out and speak against this, to come and give their stand on where the judiciary is in as far as the independence of the judiciary is concerned and the legality of all these acts actions. We've not had that response from the DPP or from the Attorney General. We've not had the response from the Chief Justice. That is why we even decided to boycott the bar bench meeting which they had called because we didn't have any response. But then again, in a turn of events like we suspected, like we said, much as he was presented, he's produced now in court under charges placed on him. If this man had been, you know, suspected of having committed these offenses, they should have gone through proper process. We are only calling for due process. If you want to prosecute someone, let it be a prosecution not a persecution. Go through proper channels constitutionally laid down procedures. And now the demand we are making, that's why we shifted now our guns to the DPP. Why would we sanction such a charge? Why is the person still in prison? Now we know why he is, but you know he's there legally.

[00:13:33]He shouldn't be in that prison.

[00:13:35]>> Mr. Vice President, where is the problem?

[00:13:40]Do we have the problem in the UPDF Act that the the holder of that office of the CDF is acting according to the UPDF Act or is acting contrary?

[00:13:55]>> There's no problem with the law. The law is very clear.

[00:13:58]The law actually as written, especially the constitution, is very clear. It gives roles, duties, and responsibilities of people. What he's doing is breaking the law. It is outside the law. Whatever actions you're seeing are completely breaking the law in total, you know, disregard of what is written down and what is stipulated. He does not have any power in the whatsoever. All these are illegal actions. In fact, some of them are prisoners.

[00:14:25]Cuz you cannot overthrow the constitution and then you think it's a normal thing. So what is happening is there's no legal backing for it. It is illegal. It is breaking the law. It is unconstitutional, and it is really absurd.

[00:14:38]>> As a law society, have you tried to engage the Minister of Defense? I hope the CDF is working under the Minister of Defense.

[00:14:44]>> No, we we we've engaged the necessary parties where we feel. That's why the first person we wrote to was the CDF himself.

[00:14:52]We delivered a protest note and made our advance clear. And also the legal process expects a lawyer being in in the institution. They should be able to advise and guide on the law and the proper thing and the proper processes to take. So we also wrote the same note to the head legal at the UPDF.

[00:15:09]Those are the people we intended to engage and we engaged them, but we've also engaged other duty bearers because this is a Ugandan army. He's doing it in the name of the government. That's why we involved the Attorney General because these are legal matters.

[00:15:22]Attorney General >> legal adviser To the Parliament and the government departments including the FDC. So, we are waiting to see the kind of advice they will give or the kind of steps they will take because on our part we are taking the steps that should be taken by engaging those people, by calling out these wrong things, the wrong doing, by you know, exposing whatever we are seeing and demanding that there should be a difference. So, the next of us should be done is those duty bearers who should come out and do their part to restore sanity.

[00:15:53]>> Uh thank you so much uh Mr. Asiimwe. And thanks for the work you are doing here in Uganda Law Society. I can see uh there is the there is the business business is quite normal.

[00:16:07]Normal and the construction is also getting to completion.

[00:16:12]What's new at the Uganda Law Society?

[00:16:15]Uh what changes are you making?

[00:16:18]What are you bringing on board to see that there is effective rule of law and justice in this country?

[00:16:25]>> Uh all we are doing we are implementing what we promised as the leadership of the radical member.

[00:16:30]Uh we won people one of our major four days agendas is demilitarization and we have steps we are taking. We have plans we are taking to ensure that we demilitarize Uganda. We demilitarize these processes through the programs we are going to lay out and uh very soon you should actually watch watch out for a clear program on the activities. Now, why we did not actually because we have four days, why did not overemphasize on that on the four on the demilitarization before, uh people would misunderstand it and as they would think maybe we are extremists.

[00:17:04]We are not extremists.

[00:17:06]But now it has reached the time where we now have to invoke that because everyone now has noticed. We have so many calls from members. We have so many requests from members saying please do something do something and it's high time we put up that program of demilitarization.

[00:17:19]You'll be seeing the activities that will follow.

[00:17:22]>> And then also how is the project going on?

[00:17:25]>> The project is ongoing of course with the support of the members because as you recall this is strictly members money. Members of the band I would like to thank them for the commitment. We do not have any other input. If you recall the president at the beginning had promised 5 billion which never came and we actually decided to say no longer want that money let it go support you know people have no meds in the hospitals and I'm glad that our project is moving on slowly. We shall eventually get where we are supposed to get. We are not yet there but we shall get there because we know we have the capacity to do that while working together.

[00:18:00]>> So before the completion of this project what challenges have you been facing?

[00:18:05]>> As you >> Of course of course the challenges are so many because one we never had the amount of money required at once. It's been going on at at a slow pace.

[00:18:13]>> And prices >> to the extent that project which was supposed to have ended in around 2023 we are now entering 2026 about you know three extra years without completing but nonetheless we shall get there.

[00:18:26]Yes.

[00:18:27]>> Uh any support any any