Unchecked Abuse - Old Apostolic Lutheran Church Article by Minnesota Star Tribune & ProPublica

[00:00:03]Welcome to the cultard. Uh today I wanted to discuss the uh recent uh article a collaboration between uh the Star Tribune and ProPublica where they had uh collaborated on an article about the the CSA um in the within the old apostolic Lutheran church. Um they had in last November there was an article that uh was uh that uh starch view and uh ProPublica had written about the abuse the enabling of abuse um CSA within the whole apostolic church and just uh recently they released another article and about this church CSA has gone unchecked for so long that it spans generations. So I wanted to just uh cover some some parts of the article. Um discuss a little bit about the like psychology behind uh the behaviors and when it comes to uh groups that are high control religions.

[00:01:07]um the like I used I was formerly a member of the Lepostolic Lutheran Church and uh examining the church alongside of the um different resources such as the bite model and other resources to uh determine if something does meet the criteria or metrics of what is a cult.

[00:01:27]Um I found that it did meet the it did meet the uh just about every metric of um what defines a religion or an organization as a cult. Um some people get upset by the word cult. Um you know they see as like you know short of words and and it's more it's like we're coming to this just descriptive. Um, like I said, I'm eventually I'm going to record a whole video to, you know, explain exactly what what determines what is a cult. And, uh, a lot of times I'll use I'll say like high control religion stuff because that way people are less defensive when you, you know, say high control religion as opposed to cult. But there shouldn't be such a stigma around the cult word. Um, a lot of people think, oh, that means that we're in an organization, we can't leave, but you know, etc., etc., etc. Um, no, it's not like that. there's there's a harm containment of cults. So, there can be some benign cults that are like it's no big deal. Um they're not really causing much harm or anything like that all the way to extreme ends of like um cults that have done horrific things. So, it can be on a whole continuum of uh what is defined as a cult. So, like people like when I left the church and I referred to it as cult, well, naturally get defensive or upset because to them, you know, cult is a bad thing. Um, but they'll never look into like what it what metrics are used to determine if something is a cult. Um, which I've had other videos about that talking about that. Um, and anyway, below this video, I I will uh place a link to the first article. Um, and also an interview I did about the first article that Star Trek Proa did. And um, in this under this video too, I'll also put a link to this uh, article that I'm going to go over now and discuss. Um it's uh when like with these high control religions slashcults um quite often you see that the people the people in authority or in leadership roles in these um organizations often times will like defending the church or or or keeping a spotlight off the church is a big priority for them.

[00:03:36]um while they might not say that orth that out loud um psychology of like that group think um it can be it can be demonstrated that that is indeed um like the first especially if you're you know in these religions where they all think that they are the one true one and God is working through them exclusively well you know if somebody from the secular world is questioning what they're doing and what it what and saying things that are harmful and etc etc um they're going to take they're going to take what the leaders in the church, they they're going to that's going to carry much more weight than people that are outside of the organization because they will think that well this is coming from leadership that God is working through. And um people that are in these religions aren't well ready enough to understand that they are in a high control environment or cult. Uh no any you know any person that's in a cult doesn't think they're in a cult. Um so they'll do all the mental gymnastics required when things come that are problematic. they'll do whatever they can to um keep their mind um not stress their mind. So they'll do all the mental mental gymnastics required to stay within that organization which often times you can see people retreat from information or they'll they'll say things that is clear logical fallacies in what they say but uh they're either not well enough to understand it or they just want to retreat from something that is like being brought up. So, like I said, I've I've discussed that in many of my other videos. So, I encourage people to check out the other videos that I've posted here on my page. So, like I said, we'll just go through this article. Um, I just highlighted a few sections of it and we'll discuss that and and uh you know, I'll try to get my uh input from a layman's perspective when it comes to cult psychology of of why behavior certain people do or say or behave the way they do. Um, so always you we scroll down here.

[00:05:30]Um, I said encourage people well like either look look this article up on Star Tribune ProPublica or else like I said I'll link it below too. You can find in the in the notes in the comment section below.

[00:05:42]Um and then here's across the country epsilog Lutheran church's culture forgiving and forgetting sins has absolved abusers and silent victim silent victims who sometimes stretch from parents to children to grandchildren.

[00:05:56]Um I appreciate the work that these uh reporters have done um covering this case and and you know put putting and highlighting the um like the enabling that goes on in these type of environments and and typically what happens when articles like this are um are done or highlight highlight like inadequacies within these type of religions whether it's the OLC or any other type of eye control religion are called they will quite often just flip over to to first defensive and say, "Well, it's just is just persecution."

[00:06:32]Like, you know, they're out to persecute us. They're out to get us. You know, the world is um going to say all manner of evil against us and stuff like that. Um that again, like I said, that's to protect their psyche from not having to consider if something is wrong or incorrect or done wrong. Um, also, like I said, if they believe that they're God's uh chosen people, well, they're going to think, well, if we're God's chosen people, these uh psychologists or or these uh therapists or these law enforcement officials, like what they say doesn't carry as much weight to them as what like the leaders of these churches say. And and so that's when you consider like, you know, persecution complex. I mean it's a very real thing where you have to say well okay so they're you know they're saying these things against us you know that was put it it's against us so we're being persecuted. Um people that are in these organizations that think that they are you know at at a higher level or higher level of understanding or things like that will say well you know they will they will look for any little thing any little disagreement somebody has has with the way they practice their religion or the way they live their life and say well we're being persecuted. So that's when I say persecution complex is very real. It's like it part of your badge of honor or whatever is that I am persecuted and look the world is out to get me and they are just you know pointing a faultf finding finger at me and woe is me like and since I'm being persecuted therefore I feel I am you know righteous and and uh like I said they're not well ready enough to understand about pers you know persecution complex or the cognitive dissonance of trying to make your make your mind not uh basically not fight itself to protect to say, well, I've had these these beliefs that I have to believe. I'm in this organization and and I've, you know, I believe in my leaders or I believe in my teachers. I believe in the elders. So, they're going to do whatever McDonald gymnastics is to protect that that brain from having to go through the stress of of considering, you know, different things. And if a person isn't well read, they're going to be lacking in critical thinking skills, too. So like you know when I've had a few conversations with people from the church or people have tried to save me say that you know since I left the church I left the one who saved me today things like that. Well when I've brought up you know things that were just normal you know common sense not I shouldn't say common sense common sense is there were critical critical thinking skills that I used to you know point out logical fallacies and the things they were saying.

[00:09:11]Um, quite often I just would get a a blank stare back at me because I could tell they didn't even understand what I was saying and and where the logical fallacy was. And that's when they, you know, they would typically get defensive or frustrated and then just want to end the conversation, which I always thought was was uh, you know, very strange that, you know, you're coming to me to tell me what I don't know and what I'm missing.

[00:09:32]And then when I point out logical fallacies in what you're saying and and you, you know, can't understand what I'm saying or aren't well ready enough to understand what I'm saying, it's it's amazing how even after that they, you know, might feel a little foolish or feel stupid or whatever, but then then they leave or they're leaving, they still look at you like you're the lost puppy dog. And I'm like, well, [laughter] if you're well read, you'd understand these things. So it's, you know, you're coming to save me. That's and that's when they'll go kick over to the intellectual. You know, they're always critical of the intellect. Well, the intellect you can't understand this, you know. Well, I, you know, to say that because of the intellect, you can't understand this religion. that to me that's I hold it as more of a badge of honor to see yeah I'm too well read to you know be conditioned by people or to believe um strange things um because I I know enough and I've read enough to know better and I can actually demonstrate it and and use evidence to demonstrate where I'm coming from whereas you can only say well I just believe what I'm being told um and like I said like I said in other videos too they you're going to have to do anything you can to try and uphold that belief because you have a you have a whole vested interest in retaining what you believe now because you don't want to affect your relationships. You're not going to want to change your life.

[00:10:49]You're not going to want to do the hard work of rebuilding a life. So you you're going to do everything you can to to keep that belief.

[00:10:56]So like in these religions when there's all this uh harm and abuse and and the leaders are saying that you know certain ways to handle things, well you're going to believe that's coming from God. So, who are you to question God? And often times, you're not going to get good answers or satisfactory answers from leaders in these organizations. But if you want to stay in there or you're afraid of leaving or you're afraid of hell, you're going to you're going to just try to uh push those those thoughts aside because you're not going to want to dwell. They're too stressful for you.

[00:11:26]So, like in this, you know, Washington state when these these preachers knew of members in the congregation that had abused boys and instead of reporting you know, someone to the police. They allowed him to ask forgiveness. It says here, according to a family member, and he continued to abuse children. Well, those type of high control environments are um like perfect for someone that is um uh child um CSA um abuser. and and these type of organizations are notorious for enabling those type of situations because they will want to um protect the church and they do you know believe in well if it's forgiven and forgotten it should be you know gone. Um, and it's like you're you're not considering like the traumatized child, especially like in the first um article that the Star Trek unit put out where it talks about or they mention and uh about how the victim and the abuser would be put into the same room and the abused was supposed to ask forgiveness from the abuser. Well, that is horribly, horribly um traumatic.

[00:12:44]for the person that has been abused. And it's it's just stunning to me that like these people in positions of authority within a church preachers and that would would even have that situation happened like ever. And I mean know now they're talking about whether they're reviewing their policies and they're going to be changing things which makes you wonder if you you know if God is uh you're you're in God's chosen congregation. um why would he why did he uh led you astray all these years and now you got to change things? It's uh you know it's one of those things I'd say is a logical fallacy there. Um I don't know what what do you think you know what any of you think? Put in the comment section about what you think regarding that. Um and further on the article here it says what's more the church teaches that once a perpetrator is forgiven anyone who speaks about the wrongdoing including the victim can be accused of harboring an unforgiving heart.

[00:13:38]Again, that's not showing much empathy or sympathy for the victim because like they they need I mean there that's going to be a case of needing years of intensive therapy um and and to know like I've remember you know people have shared with me too that when when they were abused and and uh they were forced to go to their abuser and ask forgiveness and then and then the parent later when the child or the you know or growing up or becomes an adult and is still having issues with what happened to them. You know, there people within a church will tell, "Well, that's forgive, forgotten. Just get over it already." Um, that's a total complete lack of uh empathy and understanding for what someone has gone through. I mean, I can't even comprehend what it's what it what that would be like um for the victim. I can only go based on, you know, the stories that uh have been shared with me and the and the stories that I've examined over the years of these situations within high control religions and cults. um has examined hundreds of uh different stories um of uh people's lives that have been abused within these high control regions and cults and uh these similarities of their stories and the way that the church um handled it is very very much in line with the way that the OLC handled has handled it well. I mean has handled it as well. And it's um I mean it's horrific. It's just like every single I've never seen uh I've never seen a case where it was handled appropriately because like I said, it's it's always so much is put on to the victim. Um, and it seems like there's so much lack of empathy for the victim. And there's so much concern about either not sping shining a spotlight on the church or using whatever doctrine you have to justify, you know, the way you've handled it. And which to me, like if a God was working in your church, he why would he be intentionally um putting so much trauma and psychological harm onto these victims over and over and over again?

[00:15:46]And uh this just to relate to what I was talking about there, you know, victims must bear their pain alone or risk going to hell. And that is the that is the problem when you're when you're telling someone, you know, okay, forgiveness ritual has been done and this should be um you know, gone and forgotten and you're also, you know, scaring the person with the risk of going to hell because um they're not having a forgiving heart. And also people that were told like you know don't go to authorities or we can handle us in the house or we've done the forgiveness so you need to forgive and forget. Um quite often the threat of hell was used against them. I've had people share stories with me about how they were told if they went to the authorities after the advice was given not to that they would um they would risk going to hell because of their disobedience. Um like I said earlier that is I mean that's just stunning to me. That shows some It just shows you that I mean God is not working through them if they if you know if a person believes in God and thinks that there's you know is a God um and then these churches claim to be the exclusive uh silver spoon in their mouth um God's chosen people. Um I just it doesn't doesn't make any sense a logical fallacy. You think that okay and well unless the god you know was intentionally the god you believe in and like in apostolic Lutheran church to OLC you believe was intentionally having people suffer more trauma after they're already victimized. Um but you consider like how mor morally and ethically repugnant that is. Um it's just it was handled wrong. who was handled wrong for a century and a half um that can be demonstrated.

[00:17:31]So why is it that you know it it takes this spotlight from these um articles and these in these different groups online to be shining a spotlight on the problem before also no you're going to review things and that well I makes you think that if God's you know inspired word of God is and spirit is moving you why would not why would the proper advice come through and and that you have that proper documentation within your bylaws on how to handle this Um, are you saying at that time that only it was only men writing it and there was no spirit moving through you or either the spirit was moving through you but thought oh well it's just traumatiz these people more um that just seems absurd to me again uh it'd be interesting to see if there are people that would want to defend the church in that manner of current members you know the comment section please please tell me how you would uh you know do the mental gymnastics required to uh to justify the way things were handled in the past um I'm hoping that in the present or future they get better. Um, time will tell from what I've seen from examining so many different cases in different um, higher controller regions and cults. Uh, typically the way they handle them in the future is going forward after there's been a spotlight is um, doesn't very work out very well because there's certain things within the religion that have been conditioned into them for decades and you know hundreds or century and a half that you're still going to have to believe.

[00:18:59][clears throat] So somehow you're still going to have to find your way to do the mental gymnastics around around certain things or things you saw in the past. Um what I've noticed too is that when you people go to these leaders um I've [clears throat] most of the time they're not they don't leave satisfied with what they're told. It's it's unfortunate because they want answers but you're not going to get good answers because you're going to get a lot of handwavy stuff and it's going to leave like I said some people frustrated but then they still have to say like I've seen it many times throughout my life when I was in the church where people question certain things but they say but um I guess that's just the way it is and that's they got to get hand wavy and just say well that's just the way it is because the preacher said it you know God's working through the preacher so I just got to accept it but you can see that it's just still troubling them with the questions they asked because they did not get satisfactory answers. It's more just hand wavy. Well, we'll know later on. We'll find out later. You'll find out later after you pass away. That type of thing.

[00:19:58]Um some of this artic articles going talking about uh different situations, different examples of things and how they're handed like by prosecutors.

[00:20:07]Um, this is what I referred to earlier too about last fall at ProPublica and Minnesota uh Minnesota Star Tribune reported that preachers in Minnesota had known for years about allegations that one of its members a man named Cliff M Classie had uh said young girls in the congregation. Um what you find through following these stories is that there was so many be abuse uh so many people that were abused over such a long period of time and quite often like within the church and when you when preachers are fully aware of what is going on like with this one individual here and you're still seeing children you know and during services still sitting on his lap um on a regular basis and stuff like that knowing what you know I just like I I talked about this in an interview I did that because I'll link I'll link below about the first article. It's like how could you allow this this to just repeat over and over and over and over again. It's just it's shocking to me.

[00:21:07]Um like I said, clearly handled inappropriately, handled wrong. Um why did why did the God that uh you believe was working through your preachers um continue to do that allow that over and over and over and over again?

[00:21:21]Um and then you know representatives from the Swedish church which like the Apostolic Lutheran church the elders are in Sweden that's where the Sweden is where the northern Sweden is where the religion first started with the lot ledious uh um who was a pastor there and had awakening. I I have other interviews or videos where I talk about like the beginnings of the church. Um anyway they're saying that you know cases are isolated instances that didn't observe any pattern. Um uh my argument in this case would be that you know not observing any pattern I would consider take in consideration motivated reasoning. Uh do you do you not want to see a pattern? Um you know that way you won't have to acknowledge that there might may be widespread um issues. You can look at it through a lens of motivated reasoning that you don't want to see patterns. Um that's something that should be considered.

[00:22:14]Um they do acknow you know like in the here it says in the um it it was their acknowledgement of it was possible some matters have been handled improperly or without sufficient knowledge.

[00:22:24]Uh again, that's that's just very odd to say to uh you know, I have people in the church always tell me when I talk to a preacher, you know, or talk to them or get advice or discuss matters that's talking to God because he's working through the preachers and it's just would seem strange to me that God would not be working through them to handle these situations properly.

[00:22:46]Um again here too like just like the elders in Sweden said here the OLC in the US and Canada said they do not perceive there to be a general pattern of behavior.

[00:22:57]Again um I would take issue with that.

[00:23:00]Um I think and this relates to to you'll see a lot of people in comment sections people that are from the church that'll try to defend us or get hand wavy with this. They say it happens in all churches.

[00:23:13]That is that's not the issue that it happens in all all churches. It it this does happen in churches and organizations. The issue here is how it was handled within the church.

[00:23:28]So to go like oh it happens in all churches like you're putting all the light on us but yet abuse happens here it happens there. Yes it does. The issue is how it was handled and it was handled wrong. It was handled improperly. the way it was handled further traumatized victims.

[00:23:46]So rather than I mean this is this is where um I talk about cognitive dissonance quite a bit. That's the way to protect themselves. So they say well it happens in all other churches too. So then you don't have to consider okay you know yeah it happened here but it happens other places and you're pointing fingers other other ways because then you don't sit down and reflect on okay it is happening in our church now why is it happening church? Why has it happened for over a century and been handling properly or tried to kept quiet or you know have I read enough or tried to learn enough to see like was this appropriate the way they handled it?

[00:24:22]Have I looked at it from the perspective like the victims and and how they feel or what they've gone through? It's like no just get hand wavy and then right away you know besides the it happens all churches you'll get two like accusations of oh so and so's lying or this person that's you know advocate for this is lying or that they're bringing this up they're lying um in those situations I say like specifically um what is the like a lie that someone's saying like throw a a wide wide sweeping accusation of they're lying or that's why do you lie about says, "What specifically is the lie?

[00:25:02]Have you considered that maybe you are trying to protect your psyche from hearing stories that don't fit into the worldview that you want to have?" You know, specifics, specifics. What is the lie? You know, like truth should be paramount.

[00:25:20]And if you think that you're, you know, in a religion where you got the silver spoon in your mouth and God is on your side, like the truth should be above all else.

[00:25:30]So it's like you don't want to question like what the leaders have done. So then it's like, okay, go attack the victims or go attack the victim's advocates, you know, throw out the uh they're against us. Um that's, you know, it's like no, it's people aren't against you. What they are is they are for truth. They're for transparency.

[00:25:52]It's not against it's not going out from the perspective of we are against this and let's find faults with them. It's like no, I see an issue here. I see a problem here. I see a fault here that should be addressed. And that's all it is. Um I have I have people in my own life that don't want don't talk to me.

[00:26:10]Um don't want anything to do with me because I've left the church and I'm very very open about my experiences and talking about things that are problematic. Um, you know, it's like it's just such a shame because, you know, tell me specifically what I'm saying that's wrong, what I'm doing that's wrong. What I am doing is I'm being an advocate for people that have been marginalized by high control religions. I'm sharing the perspective that I have from the knowledge I have from um examining many many high controllers and cults and listening to stories of hundreds and hundreds of people and interacting with many people online over the years and in person and discussing you know ways that they were traumatized by religions and cults and specifically the origin that I was raised in.

[00:26:55]So don't, you know, I just wish people would consider more like am I defensive and attacking and lashing out at people that are bringing up something problematic or did they specifically really do something that you know to be against me? You know, just just consider that.

[00:27:13]Um, and here too, the church acknowledges that they uh they bring a victim to face their abuser and they at least acknowledge it, you know, can be traumatic. Um I don't know if can be traumatic would be proper description. I I would say from everybody that has shared their stories and shares stories with me, it it has been traumatic and all the instances that were shared with me, I can't speak for everybody that's had to do that, but I would imagine for most people that would be highly traumatic.

[00:27:46]So it's just a very I would say very odd way of describing it that it can be. Um I you know it's almost like it's like saving face onto yeah we did this and um [snorts] you know we acknowledge it could be but you know doctrine hasn't changed or something. It's like oh even here it says does not reflect an error in our doctrine. Um I think there's some logical fallacies in what's being said here. Um, you know, it's like you'd have to consider again like, you know, it the way that things were handled was highly inappropriate.

[00:28:24]So, if if those teachings have been supplied or misunderstood in some cases, they said it does not reflect on error in our doctrine.

[00:28:32]Um, I would say there is an error in your doctrine. um especially like considering how uh much uh weight they give to what the preachers and the elders say and and the result of what has happened to these victims because of what the preachers and elders have said. Uh there's something to consider there.

[00:28:56]Uh and here we here I highlighted some victims spoke anonymously for fear of retribution from the church or their families. Um with good reason. Um some people spoke anonymously.

[00:29:08]Um you even if you are the victim of these things like I said you the uh behavior towards you can be very uh cruel and lacking in empathy. Um I've seen it on many occasions. Um people have shared with me on many occasions um behaviors of people that were in the church who believers of the church and the way their you know families have treated them because like I said they don't want to consider what may be wrong here and it's like okay the preacher said to do this now now do that and then that's it you know wash your hands of it. Not at all. I shouldn't and I don't mean to say that every person in the church behaves that way. Um, I've seen many, many instances of that, but there are a few too that um, question the way things have handled and are concerned about it, but they're also still trying to navigate their way to stay within the religion and also not pay the pay the cost of making any type of bold statements.

[00:30:06]Um, you know, victims too here's, you know, pressure, they're pressured to keep quiet by church leaders, um, which I talked about earlier. just like you're you're trying to protect the religion and not you're not not shining a spotlight on it. So you will give advice. Um like I said that can make someone afraid to speak out.

[00:30:25]Um, but in here, Washington State Police notes, uh, a woman told law enforcement that her preacher had, for spiritual reasons, discouraged her from contacting authorities after a daughter told her that she had been, um, assaulted by three men, I'd say graped. Um, I can't really say the word here on YouTube.

[00:30:45]They don't like that. So, but, uh, like I said, the spiritual reasons again, there's that's where I could say where motivated reasoning comes that the preachers's advice would have a component to it where it's not God speaking through them. Um it's more like we have to find a way to make this work within the church culture so we don't uh you know lose a member or you know for and we also don't uh bring too much attention onto oursel and here it says we're always told that the preachers tell us that you know it's coming from God explained one woman um yeah and as she says here who's going to argue with that um exactly if if you've been conditioned your whole life to believe that that's coming from God you would think who might consider who am I to uh go against what God's saying? And so I can't like consider what the voices of these experts, whether they're therapists, psychologist, law enforcement, I can't they're not that's not going to carry as much weight with the person or if it did carry weight with them, they're also going to have to try to find ways to, you know, work their way through it to say, "Well, I still got to follow the preachers's advice because that's coming from God." um which like I said just leads to more trauma, more and more trauma as a person's um psychologically abused after they've already been physically abused.

[00:32:04]Um there's here through here here this part of the article there's examples um of people that have you know are abused and victims of abuse through generations.

[00:32:14]Um and just there's like I said there's several stories a few different p pe people that are sharing were willing to be public and share their stories. Um my heart goes out to them because you you're put in such a you're in such a tough position because um you want justice. you've you've been wrong, but yet it's like um you know, you go to the leaders of you know, church and people in authority and and you want some kind of justice, but like I said, a lot of times it's it's going to be handled uh where you're not going to get satisfactory justice or uh satisfactory answers either. And it just it breaks my heart to think how many people are stay silent because they don't want to go go through uh what they've seen others go through. So, I'm so glad that people are sharing their stories and being uh very public about, you know, what what what they've uh encountered so that way more people can feel free to come forward and know that they have a support system and their advocates out there for him for them. Um and this highlighted here alongside the faith came a deep a [clears throat] deeply came a deeply ins uh insular church culture shaped by strict obedience and the doctrine of forgiveness that critics and former members say they enabled the concealment of wrongdoing. Um, I talked about that quite a bit in here and in other videos. Um, you like I said, you have the strict obedience to these preachers and and and elders. So it's like even even a person that may be well enough and like about that like abuse and that is still going to have to put the authority of the preachers and elders above anything that they any evidence they may uh encountered while they're reading or examining things. Um which is it's it's just very sad because evidence should carry more weight than than anything than any person.

[00:34:03]Now we're getting through here too is more you know more stories of more stories of uh abuse.

[00:34:13]Um you get to this part where I highlighted like the concept of forgiveness of sins been warped into a tool of to silence victims. Um very very common within high control regions and cults. As I said, I've examined hundreds of these stories and uh it's just a common theme throughout them that you're just going to say, well, this is the way the church handles it and now you just have to feel like this is this is the proper way to handle it because God is giving the advice, you know, through the preachers or elders. So once once that's you've done things the way that they have uh dictated has to be done and you believe that God is working through them, it's going to it's going to silence you because um if you speak up against it, you'll have to pay the social social price because you're being disobedient and it may lead to, you know, the meth talks with you or or with family members to say, "Well, they're they're not being obedient." and then families going to put pressure on you even if you feel like you, you know, there still isn't justice hasn't been served. And I like this part too. Church leaders were defensive according to news reports, but they acknowledge serious mistakes. Um, I've talked about this defensiveness many times in all on the videos that I've posted and interviews I've done over the years. um that defensiveness comes from that cognitive dissonance and like I said the brain protecting itself because it's you have like I said a mixture of that persecution complex mixed with also um yeah you're you're telling me something like if you're a professional you're telling me you know the way things should have been done or should have been handled or how inappropriate this is but this is the way that uh the preachers or elders have dictated that we should be handling it. So again, they get defensive because it's like, you know, when you when you think that you got silver spoon in your mouth and God is exclusively on your side. Well, yeah, they're going to get defensive because it's like, you know, who are you to persecute me and tell me that I should have done things this way or that way?

[00:36:12]You know, why are you coming after us?

[00:36:14]Um, no, they're just seeking truth and uh trying to get justice for victims.

[00:36:21]And I talked about this earlier, too, when I say acknowledge serious mistakes.

[00:36:24]Um yeah, it's just it's like this this is illogical when you think of okay serious mistakes have taken place but yet God has worked through your uh people in positions authority in the church. How do you reconcile that with serious mistakes? The only way you could is to say what God does intentionally and we don't know why. Um does that make sense?

[00:36:49]Another part I highlighted here. The practice of forgiving forgetting often led to abuse being considered settled internally effectively silencing victims and protecting perpetrators. U this is all this is all related to what I just discussed earlier too.

[00:37:02]I said it's settled and then person has to uh silent suffer in silence quite often. Um people will within the church will will get hand waving out too and say well things are changing or things have changed or they're handling things differently. But if you ask for specifics, um, very often you're not going to get any, uh, any specifics from somebody.

[00:37:23]You're just going to get, like I said, more of the hand wavy answers. Well, they're doing this or that, you know, and I say, well, consider why are they doing this or that? Some states are changing the laws, so they're being forced to do this. Um, why did they not do it properly before? You know, I could go on the whole I could go down the whole list again of what I've already talked about, but it's uh it's just very traumatic and very psychologically abusive to these victims to uh considered it settled when that's a lifetime of uh trauma that might need to be worked through.

[00:37:55]Um here's related again complex the world outsider and secular influences viewed as dangerous and corrupting. Um, so like I said too, you have you have experts, people in authority with that are out in the world. Um, like I said, doesn't carry as much weight. And then if they do make give advice or say things were not handled properly, again, were persecuted. Um, no, you're not persecuted. It's just that what has happened is being publicly addressed, publicly there's a spotlight on it, and it's um trying to get justice for victims. So it's it's holding people accountable. It's not persecution.

[00:38:35]Um this you know here I highlighted some church members hope the Swedish elders address sexual >> [clears throat] >> um you know address abuse during their visit essay.

[00:38:49]Um I I hope the elders address it and I hope they speak um very forcibly about it and and they are all also able to work with church leaders in US and Canada to handle things properly um going forward and this relates to um and I talked about the cognitive dissonance and the fear of hell. This right here, the mother said there's a mother that you know says she plans to raise the church's failure to notify place of elders when they visit the summer.

[00:39:20]Nonetheless, she plans to remain in the church. Asked why, she said, because I want to go to heaven.

[00:39:26]Um I this part this this thing right here, you know, when I read this article, this thing right here just it really it really made me feel sad. It really makes me feel sad right now. It it it affects me deeply when I read this because I to think that this this poor woman she's to to know like psychologically what she's going through and and um I mean I I doubt that she knows you know what what her mind is going through here.

[00:40:01]I mean she's saying because I want to go to heaven. So she's going to remain in the church because she wants to go to heaven.

[00:40:07]But yet, when she talks to these these elders, these preachers, I would suspect that she's not going to come away with satisfactory answers, um, I would suspect that the answers they're going to give her.

[00:40:22]Um, she's probably going to find a way to do the mental gymnastics around it to feel like she's satisfied. Um, I'm just I'm speculating here. I mean, I wish this is someone I wish I could talk to now or talk to even after she talks to the preachers.

[00:40:37]um maybe to to help her kind of understand like like what the advice she's going to get from the elders or preachers to help her understand like what what they're saying or how that may there may be logical fallacies in what they say. Um but I hate to think that she's she's her mind has been conditioned to think that she's not going to go to heaven if she leaves this specific church.

[00:41:04]um you know any of these I talk about this in other videos too is like there's just so much information out there so much you can read and it's just it's just so disheartening like how people can be conditioned into believing um strange things and and I'm not looking at those people that are in that situation in a judgmental way. I I I look at it with sadness because I was there at one point and and I I know better now. I've I understand like what was happening to me and how I was raised and uh [snorts] like the conditioning that that uh happens in these type of high control religions and cults and and a lot of people don't know that that's what's happening and it's and and I've talked about this in other videos and interviews and stuff too. It's not as if the preachers or elders are doing that intentionally. they themselves are conditioned to believe this stuff too and to you know to me evidence carries much more weight than anything a person says. So once you examine evidence and you see like this, you don't have to fear, you know, losing losing if you're if you're a Christian and I believe in Christian and you want to believe in Christianity and you want to believe in Jesus and God and all that, you don't have, you know, fear leaving losing your place in heaven because you left any religion.

[00:42:23]And then also like for myself, I I don't I'm not worried about heaven or hell or anything like that because I've taken the time to examine the history of uh these ideas and to examine mythology and stuff like that and and to see the mimemetic parallels between mythology and and what is you know in in uh the Bible and religious text. So like I I don't have any fear of any of that stuff. But I mean, even if this woman wanted to remain a Christian and believe in God, um, it just it breaks my heart to think that she's can't leave that environment, you know, because she wants to go to heaven. It just spar like that just it it just I don't know. It just sometimes it feels just hopeless. And and and and thankfully a small percentage of people make their way out of these environments. And uh that's why it's nice to have community online to uh have you know share commonality with people and to uh validate their experiences. Um I just every time I read something like this like I said it just it just breaks my heart to think that she has to have that fear you know I want to stay here.

[00:43:30]I want to go I want to go to heaven but yet you know things are in her mind aren't jing with you know what has happened. So, I'm sure she's going to go through some psychological, emotional turmoil when she's discussing this with elders because it's you have to make sense of things that don't make sense from these um people in position authority within these uh religions and the three religions particularly.

[00:43:55]Um, this stuff down here too is there's about another there's a video that you can watch when you're on this article and and there's uh more examples of situations with different uh different abusers. Um, and he's talking specifically about this one person that has abused many children and um you know leaders have done nothing to stop him.

[00:44:16]he he was able to abuse over and over and again and when he's convicted um court order psychiatrist wrote in a report that this person had a you know history of offending 29 males and this is a you know another case of just like I said those environments are just perfect for people like that that want to they can they can use the system to continue abuse over and over again.

[00:44:41]Um, hopefully it's going to get harder for them now as states change laws and as spotlights are are shown on this uh on this stuff and and uh I've talked in other videos too about religious narcissism. Um, this is a classic example of it here where this uh the guy that was the abuser, you know, says, "My sins are forgiven." This guy told the judge and you know, have yours. Um, there's a healthy dose of religious narcissism in that line right there. Um, you like I said, it comes with that conditioning of the silver spoon in your mouth and you're like God's chosen and uh I know the proper way to get to heaven and while I am a sinner, you know, I've been forgiven. And then you go point at everybody else involved in the case and and looking down your nose at them as if they're unsaved anyway and they're not like you're on a higher level than they are. Um thankfully a lot of these uh judges and prosecutors see through see through their BS and understand like like uh these uh the you know getting judged by somebody that's done some horrific things like that um that would carry no weight.

[00:45:44]So, um I guess you know in closing like I said I would uh I would I would suggest that people try to spend time like examining like the psychology of these higher religions and cults and how they how they keep people conditioned into uh believing um weird things and ignoring logical fallacies and stuff like that. And I will uh like I said I'll put the links below of uh the other articles and I've done regarding this.

[00:46:08]And uh I'm so glad to see that the spotlight has been put on this situation and I'm hoping that these uh you know the Minnesota Star Tribune and uh the uh ProPublica um continue to uh report on these and get uh help get justice for these victims and to save uh to save other people from uh being victims as well. So, um, that's it for now and, uh, I appreciate anybody, uh, liking, subscribing, or sharing this, uh, video with others. Thank you for stopping in at Colard. [clears throat] Bye.