This discussion elevates epic fantasy to the level of serious literature, proving that the most rewarding narratives require intellectual patience rather than simple escapism. By demystifying Erikson’s complexity, the creators provide a necessary roadmap for those seeking depth over genre tropes.
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Why to Read MALAZAN and Not Be Afraid (+ Books 1-3 Discussion)
Added:Welcome to the channel everybody. I am so lucky today because I am joined by two amazing esteemed ariodite gentlemen.
They're going they're going to help me decipher exactly what it is I have just read. When I finished up Memories of Ice, I I have read nothing like it before. And I was like, what in the wide world of sports have I just read? These two fine gentlemen here. I couldn't think of a better two people to sit down with to go over everything with. We have half the brain trust from Tud to Ramble.
Richard, how are you doing this evening, my friend?
>> I'm doing great. Thank you so much for thinking of me to I I finally get to talk about Memories of Ice with somebody.
>> Yes.
>> As my co-host is dropping the ball a little bit on it.
>> Well, I know you had read it. I had just read it. I was like, that's per that's perfect. Let's jump on it right away.
And of course, who I'm considering our Sherpa through this. This is you've got the PH and D behind your name. It is Dr. Philip Chase, the best of fantasy. And this is your favorite alltime series, if I'm not mis misspeaking here. So, how are you this evening, my friend?
>> I'm doing really well. Yeah, the the most accurate thing you said was this is my most favorite series of time. Uh the rest of it, I'm not so sure.
That's a big intro to live up to, but we'll do our best. We'll do our best.
>> Oh, you you'll do you you you will be it's like falling off a log for you.
>> There's a reason why you're doctor Chase. You've earned the title.
>> Yeah, we're we're just a couple guys, but Yeah. So, you're going to be leading us. We're following you. We're on your tweed coattails tonight, I think, of all things understanding uh Malazon by Steven Ericson. So, I kind I I really want to delve into this. This is going to be spoiler-free for a good chunk because I really want to take a look at this. Uh, it does have a reputation of being a bit of a challenging series and I and I think that's valid. I think it earns that. I I do think it is something that uh I it it is quite literary. It is almost like it it is it takes a little bit of extra focus. It's almost like a a a literary work that you do have to work at and study. It's not just a breezy read, but I do think that challenge is absolutely so worth it and absolutely rewarding. So, I want to spend a lot of time about what you'd be getting into, how you're rewarded, what type of person might really enjoy this, and maybe even some tips at the end. And we're going to go over some feelings that we've had and some themes and everything. But really to start off, sometimes if you're really looking into something, I think it's best to start off looking at the writer themselves, the artists themselves that have that has put this together. Uh so I I absolutely wanted to challenge or ask Dr. Chase here to start us off and go over a little bit about who Stephen Ericson is, where he came from, what was his goals of creating this. Uh just kind of give us a little bit of background of the writer himself.
>> Sure. Yeah. Um well, Stephen Ericson is a Canadian writer who's actually the collaborator in terms of the creation of the the Malazin world. Uh Ian Eslemont being the other half of this equation and a lot of the world building was done as they gamed this world. Um initially they may have started out with D and D, but they moved at very early stages onto the Gersps uh system, which I'm personally not familiar with, but you may have heard of. Um but anyway, yeah, they they gamed this world together and uh what you read in the Molazin books by both authors is not what they gamed obviously, you know, but they created a lot of the characters and some of the >> some of the premises behind some of the stories. Uh the again the world building. Uh so that a lot of that was done, but other characters were created as they wrote and and expanded on these stories and and made them works of literature. But Ericson in particular, uh, I I had the pleasure of talking with both authors. Um, and they're both really magnificent. Um, in terms of Stephen Ericson and what he does when he writes, um, I I can't speak for Stephen Ericson, obviously. I would never try to do that. But I I again I've been able to sit with him and talk with him and and uh I think I understand uh at least uh some of his writing process and and one of the things he said very clearly uh to me and to my friend AP Canavan, Dr. AP Canavan, who actually is he has a PhD in fantasy literature. He always gets mad because I'm Dr. Fantasy and he's he's not. So >> yeah, you know what? Trademark's a real thing. You jump you jumped on that. You jumped on that title party, man. That's right, man. He has to live with just being known as the nemesis. That's >> I gave him the cool nickname, Professor Fireballs, so he'll just have to live with that.
>> Be happy with that. That's not bad.
>> Pretty good.
>> I take it.
>> It's a pretty hot nickname, actually.
Yeah. But anyway, his his channel is a critical dragon, by the way. Um he is, despite my my teasing, he is a brilliant brilliant person. Um but uh yeah he and I did our whole Malazin discussion series together and and several times because he is also by the way an advanced reader for Stephen Ericson Andy and Elsamont and he's friends with them.
Um so through AP I had the opportunity to chat with both authors and >> and Stephen Ericson is an author who starts w with theme. It's a very important part of his writing process.
Um, and um, I'll probably garble it, but um, during one of our conversations, he talked about how >> he really does begin with theme and and he compared it to he he he gave a really lovely extended metaphor for how he does this, but it's almost like you take a boulder, >> a big boulder in in in what will become eventually the landscape of which is the story, right? Um, but you don't want to just have that boulder sticking right there in the middle of everything all by itself looking all bald and and you know, you want to cover it with the landscape such that it may there may be layers and layers over it and that it blends in and there eventually is grass and stuff, but it's still perceptible that there is something under the ground there that it's it's buried. It's it's it's part of the story. It's integral to the story because it explains in many ways the shape of the story. Um, but it's not something that pokes out and looks too, you know, uh, obvious, right?
Because theme needs to be a part of it.
Now, I don't I don't think all authors do that. I think a lot of authors will write the story first and then figure out what the theme is. Probably the majority of of genre fiction authors will do that, but Stephen Ericson is a um he's he I mean, he went to one of the finest uh uh MFA programs, uh, the Iowa Writer Workshop. uh he's a very highly trained writer in that sense. Uh and and what he does with his fantasy in many ways is similar to what you would find in literary fiction. Um so yes, >> the theme is really important. In other words, >> um and uh it's the case I think that you'll hear a lot of people talk about molassin as a story about compassion.
Okay.
>> And and that's not untrue. Um, but I think it's not it it isn't quite accurate to just leave it there. Um, it's it's not just compassion equals good, right? What it is is is an exploration of compassion. Because another thing I think you'll find about authors like Stephen Ericson is that they're not trying to shove answers down your throat. They're not saying, you know, he's not saying compassion good, you know, swallow it. you know, he's exploring compassion in so many ways throughout the series and other themes too, you know, redemption and and uh the the impact of of uh war on the the soldiers and the the people who suffer uh who who go through war all around them and and the consequences of a a an inquisitive empire. uh the consequences to both the colonized and the colonizers uh you know and on and on we can go there's a lot of themes in there but if you take a prominent one of course is compassion and and compassion relates I think in many ways to all these other themes that I've been talking about >> so it's a it is a kind of a central theme in that sense but again he's he's it's a very nuanced exploration of how compassion can work and is you know are there circumstances under which compassion may not be the right answer.
Uh is it possible that uh compassion can have multiple consequences not all of which are just completely positive? You know uh so there are many many things that are are explored throughout this this expansive vast series but theme I just want to get across is is a is a central part of his writing process and uh as such he's a writer who really can get you thinking. He's a writer who can who can make you this is this is a story that sticks with you that that asks you to explore these questions. Uh so that to me is one of the most important things about Erikson's writing and I don't think it's really that I wish it people didn't it didn't have quite the reputation that it has for being so intimidating and you oh you have to be real smart. I don't think you have to be real smart to read Molassin actually.
Uh, I think you had to be willing actually to be comfortable being uncomfortable, not knowing all the answers.
>> Yeah, maybe that's a better way to say it.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I I I especially think by by book three and my biggest complaint with book one is so compared to book three, you're it's okay to be comfortable with being uninformed. you're going through you're like I don't know what's going on yet.
Erikson does especially by book three and does in book two. He repeats things like if you're paying attention you will get it. You have several you have several opportunities to pick it up, >> right?
>> Uh I wouldn't say it's the same thing of with um uh Jean Jean Wolf. There's not many you don't get a lot of repetition.
Like you either get it when it happens >> or you don't >> or you don't. There's not a He doesn't give you many options. I think that's one of the makes one of the things that makes it difficult is if you don't know, you just don't know and you're never going to find out unless you have to go back and reread or have someone tell you. Ericson, there will be moments where you don't know what's happening and but he will remind you a few times and you event I think you eventually will figure it out.
So I agree with you. It's not nearly as difficult but you have to be comfortable just letting it happen to you.
comfortable going I don't know I don't know if this significant I don't know who is this person is this what's going on >> and that's okay and that's okay yeah I I don't like intimidating I think is such a wrong word but I think challenging so many times like we we we get a bad rap right like oh the real books are not in this section they're over in the literary section and I I feel like this is a true work dealing with depth of character depth of theme u true literary devices being used here like like you said he he went to the Iowa workshop highly one of the most highly thought of programs in the country uh master of fine arts programs I mean this is something that's really operating on that level so it takes attention it takes focus it might give you a bit of challenge and that and those moments of being uncomfortable I think is is the perfect way to put it Dr. Yeah. I I I mean, and it's a series that you can enjoy on so many levels, too. I mean, if if you want, as my dear friend Iskar Jar used to say, lasers and fireballs, you Oh, yeah. You know, and you got >> you got all kinds of explosions and and combat and cool stuff and you know, that's there. That's certainly.
>> Before we leave, the man himself, isn't he now I'm not sure I I think I've read a bio or two. Doesn't he have isn't he a doctorate in archaeology, anthropology, some?
>> So, yeah, he has advanced I'm not sure exactly. I don't believe he has a PhD in it, but he certainly has at least a masters, I believe, but but yes, he's an archaeologist. He he was a working a working archaeologist who has uh been on many different sites in many places >> uh and that sort of thing. And that is another thing that you see in terms of I mean, we love fantasy.
>> Yeah. because it it does that toolken thing where you know there's the the the the remnants of the past that just sort of >> poke their way up into the present and and they get you thinking about there's a a word for this in old English it's called d showing showing which is essentially um contemplating the dust right which is um basically it's the the lives of the of the past peoples that have gone before us that are now just um you know you can see little remnants here and there. It's like seeing ruins in the landscape and that kind of >> with Ericson it goes back hundreds of thousands of years and there are layers and layers and and this there's an ecological aspect to it. Um he just really does it. You know, >> this is not a spoiler at all, but I find it it ties into this of how bold of Ericson for book three to not like to effectively have two prologues of, hey, this is a time very far in the past and you go, okay, cool, >> next next chapter. Oh, another prologue even further in the past. Like, >> geez, not comfortable with just one. No, we got to go even further. It it works out great. But like that's that's a bold decision. Like it just shows how much depth there is to the world building that he put into this world.
>> And he also does something that uh I appreciate, >> which is he makes all these digs, yeah, pun intended there, at history and in historians. Uh because you're both familiar with the the concept that there is this received narrative that the the winner writes.
>> That's right. Absolutely.
>> Um and a lot of the epigraphs uh are are cluing you in as to the veracity of all these historical accounts that uh have been used to justify. And that's the thing. They're often these historical accounts are you that leave out so many uh people's versions of history. They're used to justify all kinds of atrocities uh to the and it's something that uh Ericson uh and you have several historians who are characters within the the yes met already. Yes, >> you've met a couple of them already. Um and uh they're not always uh enamored with their profession, you know, as historians or they realize the compromises that they're often forced to make as they're some of them have integrity and they want to tell the truth as they've experienced it, but they are told that no, this is going to be what you record. Yeah. If you don't if you don't, there are consequences.
You can see already in the story. If you don't tell the version that the powers of be want, you get >> the approved version. let's say. Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. I do have on on my list to get into that because there's a couple of true meta moments of that that I just absolutely love in these first three books. Um well, thank you. That's Thank you, Dr. Chase, so much for that beginning and that opening. Um I want to go into a little bit about now Richard, you and I, we've done again Dr. Chase has done it all.
We've done the first three. So I I kind of want to go in and and get our feelings of these first three like one by one. I I'll I'll go ahead and start off like I with Gardens of the Moon, I got scope. I got crazy cast of characters, off thechart nightmare fuel at times, bold decisions as far as plot devices and storytelling. Uh huge setpiece m just scope grandeur off the chart. In Dead House Gates, I got such a human element infused with that when we started dealing with the humanity and the catharsis of the chain of dogs and the sacrifices by the end. And also the scope was there. The chain of dogs is not the only things going on. There's so many different parallel plot threads going on in this far away desert world from where we started in Gardens of the Moon. Still some crossover and tie-ins, but for me, Dead House just brought that human element of it in into the storytelling. And then when I hit Memories of Ice, it all came together to me. It all came full circle to me. It became like, okay, this is not something that, oh, wow, this this is crazy scope.
Oh, this this also has some real human elements. This became in memories of ice for me. Once I got to the third book, it's like, okay, this this I'm feeling I'm starting a reading journey here that that is going to be different from any that I've had in the past. I can't really compare this to anything that I've read before. I it immediately stirs me to want to talk about it, and that's why I am so thankful for both of you joining me tonight. But when I hit this third book, it it hit rare air for me immediately. I was like, "Okay, this is I'm at the baby steps beginning and this this is this is getting to be extremely special for me."
So, that was kind of my journey through What What was What was it like for you, Richard? What going through the first three? How did it hit?
>> Um I I didn't particularly like book one. Uh part of this is there's the scope, but when when talking with other people about it, they go, "Oh, well, what do you think about this scene? like wasn't this super cool? Uh to give like an example of like well then like dragons up here and it's actually three of them and I and I'm going >> is this rare? Is this special?
People seem to be taking it as normal. I don't I don't know how to feel about anything because I don't have a sense of grounding. It just feels like things are happening.
>> Mhm.
>> I don't know if it is a special thing or a normal thing.
and I didn't have much grounding. And you add on top of that of the characters themselves are there's good identity, good voice, but ultimately I didn't really connect with many of the characters just because there's such a large cast. It's hard to attach myself to it. When I found out that book one was originally adapted to be a screenplay, I think it made it a good deal of sense.
>> Mhm. But when I went on to book two, immediate I I was floored with it. U specifically because unlike book one, the large events in this world were teased in the beginning and slowly built up. I'm like, I got to feel of, oh, okay, this is significant. This is different. And so I get to anticipate it. And so I that the thing that was lacking from book one was anticipation.
things just happened >> and I didn't get the the anxiety of something is going to happen. Book two, I got all that. And one of the most heart-wrenching uh stories for me, I I loved uh um help me out with um par. It's been it's been a while since I've read the book now at this point. Parn's sister, >> Fel Felison. Right. Fel Yeah. Felison.
Yeah. Yeah.
one of the most significant stories. I loved it. Absolutely loved her character.
>> Fell in love with just the story that that was saying >> and book three just threw me for the loop. It is the grandest of scale, the most heart-wrenching. I cried. It was It was everything I'm looking for in a fantasy novel. It I absolutely loved it.
Yeah. So, kind of this by the by the by the end of the third kind of where I'm at. I feel we're we're very close. Can you like get in the way back machine, Dr. Chase, and remember you first starting out when you were about three books in how how that journey was shaping up for you? What you felt about it?
>> Sure. Yeah. The first time I read it because I've read the series twice now and I want to do a reread as soon as I have all 10 of them in the broken binding uh editions that you have this lovely editions you have laid out there.
Um that's uh my intention is to do a third read through once I get the all of them. Uh so but yes I remember the first time I read it and I I hear what Richard was saying because uh I was a little confused uh by the first book by Gardens of the Moon and >> my reread experience was very different >> and that you hear that all the time. Oh, you have you know >> you know where it's all going. Yeah. you want to um I think you get plenty out of Molassin the first time you read it. I did. I loved it. Um but I will say the reread is what made it my favorite series of all time. Uh it was the reread that did that. It wasn't the first time I read it, it probably was like top 10 for me. And the second time I read it, it was like, oh my goodness, this just, you know, you just you catch a lot more.
And rereading Gardens of the Moon particularly was a a different experience the second time um because you you do have a lot more context um and and you feel more grounded and you're not worried about missing stuff.
You're just, you know, you're able to just enjoy it and there's less for me there was less tension, less anxiety about the reading experience itself.
So yes, I I do reme remember though the that first time and I was just like what is going on here but I I love this but I don't really know what's going on. Um I I don't know. I was >> kind of like being at a at a rave or something I suppose you know it's like wow this is really cool but I'm a little bit overwhelmed you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, but uh the second book, Dead House Gates, the first time I read, that's when I knew, oh, okay, this is something very special and very different. And I think this is this is could be a magnificent thing for me. And and Memories of Ice just absolutely cemented that and >> um became my my favorite of the first three. Um yeah, >> you have so many experiences ahead of you, too. Um, but uh those first three are, you know, if you get through the first three and and you feel the way that you two feel right now, I'm confident that you'll have many highs ahead of you. Many many highs.
>> Lovely.
>> So, yeah, >> I I feel like from book one to book three, from gardens to to memories, right? I feel a change in myself as a reader, as a viewer. I feel like because I felt that tension of, okay, wait a minute. Okay, no, these are not bridge burners. These are the Assassin's Guild in Dujasan. And these are and I was like doing all of these, you know, crazy red threads across the room of trying to keep track. By the end of this, I feel like I'm one of these gods in a Warren looking down with a 30-foot view. And if I don't see it all, I'll come back to it in a minute. I'm not going to worry about that. I'm just seeing this entire story unspool. So, I almost feel like I've gotten a different place to be as a viewer or a reader by the time I hit book three. Does that does that ring a bell with with either of you two as well?
>> A combination of I do think Erikson does do a little he does do something different in books two and three than he does in book one. So, I think it it is part of his writing that there's a little bit of a change.
There's maybe even a little bit more of a handholding of he I think he does more obvious teasing of like, you know, setup in books two and three uh compared to book one. At least it's more obvious cuz as Dr. Chase is saying, you know, on the second read through you, oh, I I see where this is actually being uh built up.
>> Yeah.
>> But beyond that, there is something in my cat.
>> Hello, Fig. That's Fig.
>> Goodbye, Fig.
>> Goodbye, Cat. Um, but no, there is something in the reader where you're far more comfortable just letting thing trusting Ericson that oh, it things will be explained in time at most, especially with book three. I think book two from the beginning to end, I knew why each chapter was significant while I was reading it. So maybe that's a different change. Like that was the thing I was.
>> So with book one, I'm always asking the question of okay, why are we why are we here? Why are we reading this chapter?
Why are we getting this perspective? And by the end of the book, I ultimately still didn't really know. Book Hello again. Uh book two, every chapter I knew why we were seeing it and there was a significance there. So I I felt in the loop. Book three had more of the moments is there's there's a lot of chapters in there where I didn't I didn't see why we were getting this at the moment like okay why are we why are we seeing this what's the point and then by the end of the book >> I had trusted him and he fulfilled it and I was like oh my god that's why every chapter was significant and so that fulfillment was the ending to me brought it all together but by the end I trust trusted Ericson.
>> Yeah, that's a great insight. Uh I I would say you're you're going to get more out of the experience if you trust the author. And one of the things that I learned from reading Molazin and and it it's something that changed me not only as a reader but also as a writer um and it's something you may have picked up on John because you've read the Adan Trilogy and I wrote those first two books before reading Molassen. I wrote the third book after reading Molassen.
Yeah.
>> And I think that I would never say I write like Stephen Ericson or anything because I couldn't. But >> what that did for me was it liberated my imagination. I've always said that Tolken baptized my imagination and and Ericson freed my imagination.
>> Yeah.
>> And I didn't realize you could do these things in fantasy. I didn't realize you could do what Ericson does. And when I read Molassin, it was just mindblowing.
I thought, "Oh, you can do this in fantasy." Oh, that is so cool.
>> What What is a rule? What is a trope? Uh something that Ericson did or broke uh you know, breaking the mold that you noticed and that you what do you tried to bring into your own story?
>> Well, for one thing, um I'll keep it non-spoiler um because >> yeah, I I know it's hard to ask that question and not spoiler.
>> We'll come back. We'll get into spoilers a little bit, but we'll come back to that. Go ahead and do the best you can.
one I can give one example at least that's not a spoiler um and Mazin is famous for introducing new characters in whole new continents uh in books that you guys have have met two of the important loces you're going to meet you're gonna you're going to have to uh adjust to a whole new continent in book five uh >> that's how it is and and really important characters just turn up late in the series and steal the show >> I had a character in my third book that uh John knows who I'm talking about probably who is many people will tell me that >> a fave like a favorite character >> character doesn't turn up until book three >> um and I don't know if I would have dared do that if I hadn't read Molassin you know >> um and um it just that's a a simple example but um it's the one non-spoiler one I can give um but yeah >> I I'm with there of book three has a new addition of probably one of the newer characters >> Mhm.
>> is introduced and skyrocketed to the top of one of my favorite characters.
>> Get used to that >> like that.
>> I think I know exactly you're talking about. We'll get into Okay. One thing I want to talk about before we move into like let's just throw it all out there and get into spoilers is I do want to spend some time talking about u themes and because I there's so many amazing amazing themes here and Dr. Chase you mentioned a few of them uh I I love I I I just jotted a I mean this is nowhere near a complete list for me. I love how he gets into past his prologue. Like Richard, you were talking about the two prologus of Memories of Ice. This things are playing out on this stage that happened 300,000 150,000 years ago. Who we are, how we tell our own stories, that's another big theme for me here.
How we tell our stories, how they define us, how moving forward uh defines who we are, defines our world, defines the world we live in and how we interact in it. uh generational trauma is tied into this as well like what are we carrying for what is our line carrying from the past in in in in this way uh the cost of conflict you brought that up as well Dr. Chase, uh, human connection is so important.
>> That's a big one.
>> That's >> Yeah, >> I I think the biggest one >> connect connection in general, person to person, person to the land, person to their history, person to their family, a person to their own ideals of uh, duty and what they're supposed to stand up for in family and outside of family.
I I mean I'll open the floor up to you guys, but it's like it's so interesting to me when you uh introduced us to the writer that he starts with themes because this work is so rife with it and they're done so well. At one moment they're quite subtle and at the next moment they're so tangible and so important and he gets to play them out in this layered way on this layered stage because we have the physical reality of what's going on as well as the metaphysical spiritual that's that's well into play in these books. So uh I I'm just going to turn it over a little bit to you guys to talk about themes, but I that is one of the most important parts of this series for me so far. You want to start, Richard?
>> Yeah. But what I what I particularly love about Malazan is if you were to take the world building and you just take the world a if you were to write it down, this can this could be a very grim dark world. A lot of death, a lot of suffering, a a lot of things happen that you maybe this could be grim dark.
But be with how the story is told of the importance of human connection and the virtue of brotherhood, love and self-sacrifice that these things are >> if not rewarded in a plot sense or a tangible sense, it is rewarded in in another sense. May maybe the maybe the sacrifice isn't um maybe the sacrifice they still they still die but they are still recognized they are still understood loved it is appreciated and so the the I think I'm trying to remember who coined that the definition of grim dark is that I at least appreciate grim dark is when virtue is punished and uh vice face is rewarded and so a character that exudes virtue is actually going to lose and it's but in Ericson story it is the characters of great virtue and specifically focused on human connection so friends brotherhood countrymen it's a reason why I love the bridge burners so much >> I love the bridge >> special in a special group >> and one of my favorite characters in book three their their empathy for others and their connection to others is what makes it so significant. So >> yeah, >> that is what that's the the theme that I particularly love.
>> I I guess that story of the indomitable human will and spirit, right? No, how dark the world is, what's going on, there is still that bit of light that we move forward through it, right? Oh, there's something so fun about in a realm of gods, magic, magicians, >> and then we get the Malazan infantry army. Yes. And just like >> the indomitable human spirit to go up against gods and like, yeah, you may have your magic and all this, but >> we got our men. We got the the boys. The boys are here to take down gods and magic and everything. and and the boys are are quite important because depending on which way they believe and understand the story of this world that of course powers those above them in in those godly dimensions. So it's the the humans the human spirit is not without power which I absolutely love that as well. How about how about you Dr. Chase?
Anything for themes you want to throw out there that really and I know you're way ahead of us so >> yeah well I love what Richard was saying. You got some pretty powerful girls in there, too.
>> Well, as I and as it's gone on, there is a you know, I I do see the shift. The the groups are splitting apart, but the the gals are great as well. Some fantastic characters there. I I'm just thinking of >> specifically like one se I'm thinking of a couple sections of the Malazan army of just >> Oh, I know who you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
>> The unit. Yeah. And one of the beautiful things uh just to actually sort of continue with this theme of connection which is pervasive uh and and I think related to the idea of compassion because probably most of us uh are able to act with compassion once we make connections with other beings you know um it makes it easier to be compassionate when you make a connection and oftentimes that can be with a foe or you know someone that you you thought you hated but then you actually molassin does this constantly. And there's all these incredible emotional moments when >> someone you thought you hated turns out to be someone you actually connect with uh very intensely and and you totally reframe the way you saw a character. One of the beauties of reading all the series by both authors is that there will be characters you think you hate even at the end of Molas Book of the Fallen, but if you read Esomod stuff, you'll be like, "Oh, I think I misunderstood this guy."
>> Oh, really? I love that. Yeah, that is something that happens all the time in Molassin. Um, it can happen within the series. It can happen from, you know, from one series to the next. Uh, there's a lot of characters where you think you hate this character and then you realize, oh, damn, I don't hate that character like I thought I did. Um, >> so the idea of connection bleeds outside the work into you about how you're connecting with these very characters and this story yourself.
>> Absolutely. And this has a lot this has bearing on. So let's talk for a moment about the another way in which melazin is is subversive or different or whatever. And this something I think that that a lot of really uh accomplished fantasy readers can stumble on. If you're really tuned into the fantasy genre, you're used to certain tropes. You're used to certain patterns in your storytelling most of the time.
you know, whether it's and by the way, I do agree with Richard that melazin is not grim dark. Um, for the reasons you said, I mean, melazin is very affirmative in in ultimately in its morality. Um, yeah, but but that's an aside. We could talk about that more later.
>> Um, but uh yeah, what was I talking about? I I I made myself forget >> the patterns of the genre that people >> kind of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, normally in fantasy, you you expect to have at least a a group of protagonists, a hero.
Sure. People that were f even if it's grim dark, you know, there there's a protagonist we're following along, we expect certain things to happen.
>> Or if it's other types of fantasy, we expect them to oftent times save the world, you know. Um so you'll have a a charact I would say that uh Wheel of Time is much more typical in that sense of fantasy where you have a central group of characters. You're following along the whole way. you're rooting for them and you expect them together to save the world essentially, >> right? Sure.
>> That's not what Malazin is. And and a lot of times people are like, "What is it? Who am I supposed to root for?"
Because even even the Bridgeurners, they're working for the Malazin Empire.
They're I mean, they're doing things that are pretty awful from a moral perspective. You just stand back a bit.
>> I'm just off of Memories of Ice. I'm right now very pro- Malazan army, but that will I understand where I'm at. I'm going >> Yeah, the Malazan.
>> You'll be able to cheer for certain members of the Molassin Empire, but you probably would never want to cheer for the Molassin Empire. Um >> that yeah I'm feeling well with with this new emperor in charge this new empress in charge leine I don't think we're gonna be able to cheer for Malazison for very long something >> I'm starting to get a Warhammer 40k vibes >> in the sense of like in a world where like existential galactic like celestial level threats and especially by book three going like is this the is this the last of two evils of like it like of these organizations like okay they're going up a celestial level threat. The only options is for them to be a little bit darker than would be preferable. We don't get to be all pretty with how we do things. I'm wondering if we're getting because that's the whole thing with Warhammer.
You know, the emperor is not not great, not particularly good, but >> but he's better than >> the options are chaos, death, demons, and like, oh, the end of everything and the only thing that has been able to fight it is the Emperor. He's the only thing standing between you and Oblivion.
So, I'm wondering if I'm going to get that same vibe of the Malazin army.
>> You'll see. I think you'll see. Um, but one thing you definitely won't have is a chosen one. You know, you won't have one person who's saving everyone. Uh, that is not a male thing. And that and and and in that way, one of the things I felt keenly the first time I read it was this perspective of you know how if you look up at uh the night sky on a clear night and you see all those stars up there and you get this sense of yourself being just this tiny little thing amidst all this vastness. Mhm.
>> I feel like Malaz and now there certainly are are characters with great powers and all that, but they can't change everything all by themselves, even as powerful as they might be. And there are other powers out there just as dangerous and powerful as they are. So um I I feel like when I read molassin that that that's that's the perspective you get is that we're all these little you know connected you know uh entities beings and in all this vastness and no one person is is so much more important than everyone else that they can save everyone you know >> interesting yes >> that's that's a difference in perspective and I think in fantasy we often we love our chosen ones we love you know we love to have someone saving the world and all that um but molassin it it is oftentimes I think both authors can be deliberately uh subversive in some ways and but they're still engaging you know even when you're subversive you're still engaging oftentimes with those those tropes so you'll have a character >> in Gardens of the Moon who might at first appear to be that that kind of naive young person who's going to become the hero but then no they go on a different way you know and things happen differently so um they they do enjoy tweaking ing those tropes. I think >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I I think probably the the identification of like the first character that I thought was truly subversive >> is in book two, Felison.
>> I think that was >> that's maybe why you liked her so much.
>> I I I loved I loved her character. That that was when I was having a book club discussion about it. Uh, a lot of a lot of people really um like they're go, "Ah, man. Felon was the most frustrating character to read." And I'm go I'm sitting there going like, "Yes." And it's great. It's such an understandable character. And like, oh, seeing the spiral is >> so tragic to see, but >> wonderful to read.
>> Yeah.
>> And it makes sense, though. I mean, you and I had been in her position, would we have done better?
>> Oh, the motivations are absolutely trackable. Yeah, without a doubt.
Without a doubt. Yeah. Um, before we move on to just, you know, throwing it all out there and having a great time with spoilers. We've been going about about 40 a little over 40 minutes and this is the way I exactly wanted this to go. I wanted everyone to be welcome that has done this series, that has not done this series, that maybe tried it and wants to try it again, uh, to understand that yeah, it's is it challenging? Yes, it's complex. It's layered. It's rich.
Uh, and it's so worthy to give a try.
I'm not saying it's for absolutely everyone, but if you've been on the fence for a while and you want to try it, I wanted to spend a lot of time here uh to kind of give you reasons to get in there. Trust the process, trust the author, become zen with it. Just by book three, you will have that 30,000 foot view and you will be eased into it and you will be experiencing something truly special. if this is your kind of story.
Uh, and I think it I think it is way more than people are giving it. I think people hear, "Oh, you need a slide rule.
I don't know if I can do." I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's the case. Do you have any last words on on that, Richard, before we move on?
>> I would agree. I I think this Malazan comes at an important part in people who are enjoying fantasy. Would I recommend Malazan be like someone who hasn't really read fantasy or is not a big reader before? Do I immediately recommend the Malazan? Probably not. It It's It's something that takes a bit more patience, but I think it comes across a great time of if you're reading a lot of If you're reading some fantasy and you want something a little bit different and you're going like, "Okay, I've seen these tropes before. I want >> something else." this is a great a great time to introduce it of like oh well then try Malazan if that's that's where I see it of there I have a friend who is likes taking my recommendations for books and I'm recommending him things there's going to come a point when I recommend him I'm already at a point where he's going hey I hey hey this was good but I've seen these tropes before and I want something a little he started telling me like I wanted some more character depth >> and I thought this was a little too surface level. I'm like, "Oh, you're almost there. You're almost ready.
I'm so close."
>> How about you, Dr. Chase? Any last words on this one?
>> Yeah. I mean, I love that Richard just said that because despite what I said earlier about the series giving you a sense that you're just one of billions and and then you're pretty little after all, you do develop a very strong connection to the characters. Uh, and this is a series that has me in tears many many times. Many many times and Memories of Ice uh is one. Uh, Dead House Gates is as well. There are just some really, you know, very emotional moments. A lot of them are are heartbreaking. Some of them are beautiful and and and those can be happy tears, too. Reunions are something that Ericson does beautifully. Uh you'll be seeing more of those later in the series, though. Um but yeah, um I also want to just um I I not not disagreeing with what Richard said about recommending Molazin, but I I want to just shift the idea a little bit. I I think he's right that if you're trying to understand fantasy as a genre, this is not the place probably to start.
But if you are somebody who's not a fantasy reader, but you are literary, >> you are a reader.
>> Yeah.
>> And you like, you know, really great literature, >> this could be a great place to go actually.
>> Absolutely.
>> People like that do really well with measin. They do really well. Um they they they tend to enjoy it. Uh so that that's just a caveat I guess to what what >> yeah I I think it's the main my my thing was more of do you have the patience because there's some people maybe they don't have the same patience for reading like and >> that's fine it people are looking for different things um when they're reading >> it's that moment of are you willing to delay you know delayed uh what it >> gratification >> delayed gratification I think that's that's often what it takes. And so that this is one of the books I would also put uh Lonesome Dove is also kind of in that category of >> you got to be able to have a bit of patience when reading and not everyone's there yet or looking for something else, >> but there's payoff.
>> It does pay off.
That's I think that's that seems to be the the thing I'm seeing in my friend is >> recommending him books with pretty early payoff, but ultimately he's getting that and he's like, I want more. I want a higher payoff and I'm willing to willing to put in the time for a little higher payoff and that's growing over time. All right, here is your warning. Uh if you have not started this, I hope you are moved to give it a try and let us know if you do. Uh, and if you have done this, if you've been through the first three books, we're going to take the we're going to take the masks off and just flap our gums about all things that we loved. Um, I do you guys want to just throw favorite parts, favorite characters? I I will say hearing Dr. Chase, starting with Gardens of the Moon, hearing Dr. Chase say, "Oh, uh, we look for those moments, those tropes, those those patterns." And the prologue of Gardens of the Moon for me, I thought I saw one of those patterns in Young Pin during the big coup where one emperor is being deposed and he's looking down at Whiskey Jack saying, "I want to be a soldier."
And Whiskey Jack's like, "Aim higher, kid." I thought I saw I thought I saw a future. And Parn does become quite important. I'm not I'm not saying he doesn't become important, but I thought I saw the beginnings of a chosen one there. Before I turn it over though, the other thing I do want to say about Erikson is that I I I don't know if he would take offense of this. I hope not.
I call him Steven Bent in the best way, Ericson, because the weird the weird wild huge swings possessed puppets and floating cities and I mean just like what what you know and just I the moments like that just just bring me joy because they're just so far out there that you haven't seen before. Uh, but let me turn it over to you, Richard.
Kind of fave moments from Gardens of the Moon. Do you remember? Do you have any?
>> There there's one in particular which I just thought was so fun and odd. The one character that I could tell from the book of like, oh, this is a special character. This is one of the This is one of the grander characters. Like, this is larger than life, ancient.
>> Yeah.
>> Epic. I'm supposed to put I'm supposed to put some stock into it.
>> Anamander Rake.
>> Oh, yeah. And Amanda Rake is >> he's a big deal.
>> He's the guy.
>> He's the guy.
>> And then we get him just kind of at the tea party.
>> He's just there. Like he's not still in his moon castle. He's Oh, he's just here. He's in the coach >> and they're having a little bit of a little dinner party. We're going >> This seems a little too casual for Anaman to rake. This seems a little too early. This is weird. I I liked that aspect a lot. Actually, >> I did as well because you get to converse with him and sit with him and be with him and then when you know when the ending hits and he takes his other form, you're like, "Okay." Yeah, I see.
He's a big deal. You know why? He treats everything a little bit more casually.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you have uh you know, Cropper? Cropper was the best.
He was the best part of book one. Yeah, >> I still stand by that.
>> We got a Crup fan. I love it.
>> I'm a big Crupper fan. I'm surprised with book three.
>> Oh, he he d Erikson dances that line.
Could easily so easily become like a Jar Jar Pigs like >> Yeah.
>> Oh, knows by book three especially, he knows way too much. Like he knows way too much, right? Oh, there's too many fun crer scenes in three. I'm the highlight for me of just he's just this, you know, fat jolly guy and you think he, you know, puts himself down kind of pathetic and then you have the one um the one car I'm trying to remember the um >> the the bar uh the the bargast woman who is uh you know sleeping her way through like oh I'll by sleeping with him >> and she's and she's like >> said Hey, is that Hayan? Is that their name?
>> Maybe.
>> I I can't remember that name, but yeah, I know exactly you're talking about. And then she gets to to Grup and then she then she's actually starting to fall for him a little bit of like actually he's Grub's got stamina. It's like what?
>> Wait, what?
>> It's It's cute. It's funny. Uh, I just love how he always um he subverts everyone's expectations of him and >> he does.
>> By book three though, some people are starting to catch on of like, >> yeah, >> you're not really who you present to be.
>> Way way more than meets the eye. In Gardens of the Moon, the other character that when we introduce her, I I felt a tingle. I felt it's just going to be a biggie is Tatterale. And and I love that we get very early on from book one moving forward. It's like not only do we have a lot of characters and there are a lot of characters, but there are characters that come back around in entirely different ways that you have to meet all over again and learn new names and learn new, you know, new ways to look at them. Uh, but that was another character that I really, really liked. How about you, Dr. Chase? any big moments that live on from gardens for you?
>> Yeah. Uh so many um so many uh a big highlight for me is the dinner scene uh with adjunct law and um uh tatterale and >> the other people who are there talk I think is there and due Jack and and so on. Um that is just it's right up there with a certain dinner scene in Dune Dune. Um, but uh there there's it's such a a wonderful illustration of how you don't need a battlefield to have high high tension in a scene.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and it's just to me it's just brilliantly done. There's so much history untold that is seeping into that scene uh between the various characters.
Um and uh just brilliant brilliant uh uh could be like a a short story itself almost that that chapter.
>> Um that's wonderful. And I love the the the uh the fet or whatever at the end uh of of the the just >> there's stuff happening everywhere. You have you have dragons and and you have uh >> demons, >> jagged uh revenants. You have >> I just Okay. And now I see the funny side in the moment. I'm going what the hell is this? Of, oh my god, dragons come. It's like, oh my god, a dragon.
And I'm going, is this rare? Are dragons special? And then two more dragons.
What? Three dragons. And then, oh, actually the jug got him out. Okay, so that's the big so quickly introduced and then so quickly taken away. Just false alarm, everyone. false alarm.
>> Also, I mean, there's a lot of deliberate humor in there, too. Do you notice what mask Anamander Rake was wearing and and what mask um Crup was wearing at at the end? I mean, there's some really nice little >> I have to go back and look at that.
>> Go back and read.
>> Look at which what masks they're wearing to >> Yeah, I do. I mean, the bridge burners were everything for me in gardens. like Whiskey Jack and Quick Bin and like these guys that go in first and come out last and you know starting to to realize it's like hey are we going in first because they're trying to off us like be because we were all in on the last emperor like we we're maybe like persona non grata here like it it sets up a lot of political and court intrigue in in that way and uh I I really love the bridge burners and where they kind of come back around even through dead house and then back around into memories. I was I I really really liked >> the bridge burners uh by book three are that's my favorite brotherhood group I've read in fantasy. There's quite a few of them off the list like people will think about uh bridge 4 from Storm Archive. people love that group. But >> and I I do love a great, you know, brotherhood uh >> brotherhood uh type of group like that.
But >> bridge uh the bridge burners I think were my favorite.
>> I they they might be taking over for me as well. Like as far as rag tag found family like almost this crazy spec op spec ops team that goes in >> like before anyone. It's like >> first in, last out.
>> First in, last out. Like it's crazy.
Yeah. Really enjoy it. You And then you just play the the dynamics between them all. What I love is each character voice and how there is a genuine uniqueness.
There isn't like a central Well, okay.
There is a like QuickBen is probably the QuickBen and uh Whiskey Jack kind of like the protagonists, I guess, of >> Yeah. the bridge burners, if you'd say, and there's a bunch more tertiary side uh bridge burners, >> but they play a huge role that they have a great character voice. They're unique.
There's not really a that was the sometimes you find a thing of like, oh, this role, this character in the in the group plays a role or plays a trope and not much more beyond that.
>> Mhm. I don't find that with the bridge burners. They do feel like complete.
Every single one feels like a complete character and playing a role.
>> And you get the you get you get the danger, you get the pos, you get the the catharsis by an end. You and you get the humor. Like they're they're fully rounded characters. They're not just like kind of st you know cardboard cutouts of this type of hero, that type of hero. like they they come with a lot espec quick bin you find out is I I re you know by memories that's a powerful dude man like I really I'm all in on quick bin by the end of memories of ice so moving into dead house gates let's open let's open that up a little bit so okay okay we start to here's some of my favorite takeaways it's like wait a minute in that way we we don't know who we think we know tatteralees still not tatter sale. But, uh, Fellison, the whole whirlwind thing, um, the emperor is still around like he he ascended and him and his him and his favorite assassin are still like now they're okay. Wait, so I really got the idea of dead maybe not necessarily dead in this series. and who you think you know, you might know them down the road coming back around in different ways, which I really dug. But hands down, my favorite my favorite thing, the the chain of dogs and and Dooker at the end and >> Catillian making sure he had the the little bottle to smash because it's more important that you tell the story and the the little bit of of the Empire making sure there's a historian embedded with this army so the story can be told. Um, all everything about Dooker, all of Dooker's journey was just like my happy place for Dead House Gates. Go ahead, Richard.
>> That's an important question for Dr. Chase here. So, we were talking about that in the spoiler-free section. There does seem to be an emphasis with the Malazan army, at least what we're told, is that one of the things that makes the Malazan army different than many other armies, is they do like they do value the truth of they put a lot of it in the sense of for their records of like they learn from they want to learn from their mistakes. They when they get a report back, they don't want like if they're going to get a a military report, they don't want something that is just praising them. The reason why they value their historian is like, "No, I want I want the accurate truth of what happened so we can learn from this and not make the same mistake again." What happens afterward of like, you know, the propaganda after that's something else.
But do you think that that is a reliable thing? Is is that some is that a unique thing? Are are we getting that as the truth or is this a twisting because we are getting the perspective of the Malazine army that they value um an accurate uh history for their campaigns?
Well, they they certainly value intel, and you could you could see Dubicker's reporting as a kind of intel, but the melasins clearly also don't like it when their historians tell the truth that they don't want told witness Hibboric.
What why has Hibboric been punished?
>> Yeah, >> he's a historian who refused to go along with the received narrative essentially.
Uh so clearly um once the uh reports are in and they have their intel they don't necessarily want that to be the official version that everyone hears that they definitely manipulate history in that sense. So that's my take on on on your question. So >> there hasn't been an empire in history that doesn't do that you know.
>> Oh yeah. What's disseminate what's comes in and what's disseminated are maybe two very different things >> right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I I I do like how competent the Malazan army is and >> competent to agree that even the gods respect them of they may just be mortal, but you don't count them out. They >> they are willing to plan. They're willing to there's a there's a level of humility in in their uh in their hierarchy hierarchy of like no no we actually like we actually do need to know what happened to like we can make mistakes and we have to plan around it.
So I I appreciate how competent the Malisan army really is.
>> Yeah. How about how about you Dr. Chase?
Favorite moments of Dead House Gates?
Well, I mean, there's uh so many. Again, I I'll tell you what, the moment that always gets me emotionally. Um, and you mentioned the chain of dogs and all of that and and certainly the the Duricker moment that you mentioned at the end and >> and the dogs uh the dogs big time. Um, but the moment that really gets me every time is uh when uh you have um Coline being crucified.
>> Yeah.
>> And they're they they want to end his suffering. Um they want to end his suffering and uh they have Squint the Bowman, >> the the Judah. And it's Squint's reaction to having to do this to Coline that wrecks me every time and what it does to him. Uh it it's just that's for whatever reason that's when it all just falls on me. It's like you go through all this trauma and then there's this one thing that >> finally just breaks the dam, so to speak.
>> That's the breaking of the dam for me.
That squint moment. Yeah. you've you've had this entire 1,500 mile march of pain where with the aristocrats being purged and you know you've got all of this trail of tears and then it becomes down embodied in that one man in that one heroic man that stood up and stood for something >> person stood for something this entire time and then I believe it was Dooker himself that gave the order to squint to shoot. Yeah, I'm with you. The motivations character-wise from character to character are easily trackable even when they're questionable.
And I think that's why that's where the emotion comes in as well because you can put yourself in those shoes sometimes.
Um, but sometimes I have a hard time doing that because there's so much going on and it's, you know, lifting yourself up and putting yourself down in another pair of shoes.
I'm struggling with that a little bit to connect with characters even even still after these third books. But there are these glistening moments of of high emotions and that that for me is one of them that that ending.
>> I I absolutely love one the also the choice of not getting Colane's perspective of getting the chain of dogs from the historian's perspective. one, I think that's a recipe for uh badasserie is if you want if you want to look like a badass John Wick is always my favorite go-to example does it like it's simple and it's the best of how do you know John Wick is so cool because when his name is mentioned people go oh from the out you get the outsider going oh this guy is really cool and the same thing with Col Tan you don't you get to see him. You get to see everyone's reaction to him of going, "Oh my god, that the world is ending. It's all doom." And then Colane turns it around on him. You're like, "Ah, it's great. How is Coline going to do it again?" But their reaction to Coline is so significant. But more so than the chain of dogs, my favorite is Felon and the whirlwind and her spiraling descent of >> Yeah. complete tragedy, especially by the end of realizing that um her sister did send someone along to protect her.
>> Yeah.
>> And that all that Felon did to protect herself and also her um also her friends >> looks to be like could be seen as almost unnecessary. And I think that's part of like her self-denial like why she refuses to accept help once it is >> known is if she does then she has to admit that >> all that she did was maybe not even necessary. And that's part of what she's holding on to is like I did what I did to to save you to save myself. It was necessary. And it's a tragedy that maybe it wasn't.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And so like the moment when she tries to um >> she tries to sleep with um >> the the the slave master in the mind.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, but she tries to sleep with the the man who she really hates at this point who is who was sent to protect her by her sister, >> right?
>> And he sleeps with her and goes through with it and then she tries to kill him and he just he knew the entire time.
like I just wanted to see if you would you do it like just you are not predict just the low moment of >> you're you're very predictable like you're not sly everyone kind of sees what you're doing this is you've played your last card and that's that's all you have that that hurt me then just her you know being so bitter and uh lashing out at her friends is >> yeah it's so weird though too how they hate each other and deeply, but then he comes back for her >> and even maybe he thinks he's more invulnerable than he really is at this point. Um, but he he um >> burns himself horribly horrifically trying to protect her. Uh, so it's this you there's complexity. In other words, you know, there there's this >> hatred, but there's this longing in in in them, and then there's this just they they have no way of getting out all this trauma and pain except in unhealthy ways when they're with each other on this horrific journey. Uh just just so much going on. And then the dynamic between them is just there's this almost this awful spite, but at the same time, they're they're hurting each other. It's almost to assure each other that there's some humanity left in them. You know that they can bleed. Okay. If you can bleed, then then you're still human. You know, >> can feel something. Yeah.
>> Feel something. Yeah. The two of them, they're so destructive to each other and and still he comes back and and and tries to save her, you know, from the horrible rat thing, you know.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh who's the who's the character who has his hands chopped off?
>> That's Hiborg. That's the historian.
Yeah. But I love to I hate with Fel of like Felison is sleeping with the jail.
Like it starts off small of she's sleeping with the she sells herself to the ship uh the ship captain to give them better all of them better accommodations.
And it seems like this how many people died in the bottom of the ship and like obviously and how little that they >> how little they appreciate her and they just look down upon her for doing this even though she is >> they judge her.
>> Yeah.
>> They're she is saving their lives. And then as it goes on with Herboric living in more comfort than he would have and how much she's sacrificing and he looks down on her >> and judges her, but >> the judgment with no reciprocity or help. It's one thing to >> compassion.
>> It's one thing to judge, but with compassion and also reaching out a hand to help. There's a difference there. He judges with no compassion and no acknowledgment of how much she's helped him.
>> Yeah.
>> And then also offers no solution and no help.
>> She just he just says you shouldn't do that anymore. It's like well what other option >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And she's wrestling with she's wrestling through a whole addiction problem as well. Oh yeah. And there are so many I mean Ericson is such a great writer because there there will be consequences to all of this. There will be ripple effects.
These characters will not forget these things. This will affect them going forward. If they survive this book, >> they're affected by the events in this book for the rest of the series. Yeah.
Wherever they turn up.
>> I I'm looking forward so much to Felen next time she appears. Um >> yeah, >> it it's probably one of the one of the characters I'm most most attached to.
absolutely loved her.
>> Before we leave Dead House Gates, we had some bridge burners in Dead House Gates as well because we got Fiddler and Carum trying to >> trying to return uh she what what Abs what's she called? Absolar now at this >> Absolar. She's called Absilar at this point.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's just it's Yeah. It's the young girl from the bit from so they're trying to return her home and then they kind of feel like hey we can kind of get lost in all this chaos and maybe assassinate the empress and they >> while we're like you do you know we got an extra little bit of time here.
>> It's on the way.
>> Sure. So >> that's character. I don't know how sign.
It seemed in book one far more significant and then book two seems >> less significant. I don't know where it's going. I'm assuming it's going somewhere, but who knows?
>> Dude, poker face Dr. Chase is >> I got you got >> Yeah. Okay. So, but I mean so many threads and and we haven't even talked about, you know, being chased down by the dogs.
>> Oh, we're never going to cover it all.
Yeah.
>> Oh my gosh, there's so Dead House Gates.
It's shorter than Memories of Ice, but there like I was I was looking back over what happened in notes today. It's like, wow, a lot happens in this book. Like a crazy amount happens in this book. So, yeah, we'll never cover it all, but some amazing high points. So, let's get to I think even you said it when you had just read the first three, Dr. Chase, the fave. This I think hands down this is my fave of the three so far. Memories of ice.
>> Sure. Yeah.
>> Um I mean, come on. There's there's high point after high point. Just like you talked about that dinner scene. This one kicks off with uh Whiskey Jack and you know the powers that be coming together in that tent saying how what we're going to do, how this campaign's going to work and how it's Anamander Rake is there and Dooj is there and how how exactly what's I that scene to kick it all off was just awesome. It just sucked me in immediately. I absolutely loved it. and they're they're on the they're assuing the empire now and they're just going to move of of their own accord and go after the penion sear army and it's it just completely launched it in the best possible way and from there just really high point after high point after high point after I'm sure we'll get into more of it but you you guys you guys start throwing in what what you loved about Memories of Ice.
>> Oh, so many scenes. I mean there's some iconic ones. The Whiskey Jack's death. Uh, of course you have to talk about that. And it's not even just his death, which is like a total shock, but it's >> it happens like that.
>> It's Cor's reaction to his death.
>> Yeah.
>> That gets me going.
>> Um, Aovian's sacrifice.
>> Sacrifice.
>> One of my favorite characters, dude.
>> Dude, >> and even then, it's not even the moment of his sacrifice that gets me in tears.
It's the when they're all at his sort of like funeral or whatever and they're all putting items on his mound on his grave there.
>> That's >> the respect that everyone holds for him and >> y >> them understanding the sacrifice and burden he carried.
>> The for me one of the this is a book that is very much about motherhood. Uh, >> oh yeah, for sure. And the m and her journey of sacrifice what she gives for her child to to live uh is just it's it's painful at times and you you feel that that that that realism in this approach. It's not all you know uh sunshine and roses here.
>> Parents give a lot. Uh they give >> parents give a lot >> but in that weird parallel way >> w with our world that we live in the daughter had somewhat sucked her dry but the daughter was trying to take care of her >> at the end as well like she took that responsibility and and and was always moving towards a plan >> to take care of her.
>> Yeah. you know, which I which I really appreciated. And and we we had our first appearance of the crippled god here and understanding a bit what's at stake and what's going on. The the the fall, the casting down, the the chains trapping to the earth that's poisoning these magical wars as well as mother earth herself in a way. It's like, >> yes, >> we're really getting to some high high stakes here with the reality itself.
Yeah.
>> Oh, and just the um not not Anaban or Rake, but um oh, who's the other >> his friend who's holding the hammer?
>> Kaledan brood.
>> Brood. The >> the choice that he has been given of he has the capability of waking up >> waking up the mother earth. But >> and that that'll that'll stop the [ __ ] god. That that's a way to do it.
But then you wipe out all life. So >> yeah, >> who knows? Things could go bad. Things could go bad.
>> Maybe the the siege uh the siege of uh >> of Capistan. Oh, >> that is the best battle sequence that >> up until up until then I I thought the battle of Pale was was kind of my favorite because that's the first time like we saw Moon Spawn and you know like oh my gosh the wizards combating this floating city like what the heck. But no, the siege of Kapestan took the prize for me. And and then the final battle, you know, after they leave, they break the siege and they go through the next these eerie next like three or four cities that are just like left completely empty. Purposefully empty.
>> Yeah.
>> And then they get >> Yeah. Then they get to the end.
>> Oh, it's crazy. What a crazy battle.
Talk about hatred of the penion seer.
>> Oh, >> the level of inhumity and cruelty that he's afflicting on these people, >> which if there's any villain, like I I'll be honest, I think it's going to be real hard to sympathize with the crippled god. I don't care what kind of sad backstory he is. And you you add that on to the panion sear of by the end I I see the tragedy like >> you did you got by the end you kind of saw >> I get it.
>> Yeah.
>> But also hit the level of cruelty in Knack. Like I don't think that absolves you. I'm still more like >> there's a there's a special level of cruelty that you inflicted on >> hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, when when when when the when the ideology of the women of the Dead Sea can be a thing like, >> oh, God, >> things have things have gone dark.
Things have gone dark.
>> But this is what this is what um and I I agree with you, Richard, that you don't get a free pass just because you were basically he's like a little boy who's a member of a a race that's been genocided, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> 300,000 years ago. Like this is >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, >> but that's not a a free pass to to do what he does either. And and and that's the complexity of this. It's not you're redeemed. Okay, it's all right. Now you can we can all chuckle and laugh over it.
>> You can walk off with your sister.
>> Sympathy does not um does not negate justice. Like >> it you can sympathize with someone while still going like >> doesn't doesn't take away from what you still did. It doesn't justify you. Your suffering does not justify >> the suffering of others and >> especially >> and is it possible for someone who does things like that? Is redemption even an option? You know, >> is it possible?
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz you've got to carry such a mark on you and I mean, you know, set piece moment of all time when Anamander Rick says, "I'm going to hide Moonspawn, the city of Moonspawn." And in the end it comes out of the it comes out of the sea and crashes in like oh my gosh that was epic. That was so and dinosaurs with sword arms.
>> Oh yeah. This this is again bent in the best way. Like these are just like wow.
Who who comes up with that?
To me, the the biggest epic moments is the the mortal the the birth of a new mortal sword and him going >> grundle.
Oh, that some of the most satisfying moments of it during the seizures just again it's the lesson from uh book two of hearing things secondhand of going to all of the gates are down for some reason section like the west gate is still holding.
>> Yeah, >> we don't know >> how could that be. How does that >> There seems to be like everyone's falling but that one >> and they're like send off some people.
Let's figure out what the hell's going on. And they go >> some somebody not well not one of our guys just some foreigner has collected the populace and the civilians and is just hunting these pe like them down.
They are >> they are a killing death machine.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And you f them in the building just Yes.
>> door by door.
>> The dead bodies just pile up on the outside of the building >> that they're the building is bursting at the seams with the amount of corpses with the bridge burners come through and they're going like, "Man, there's a lot of death around here. There's a lot of bodies. This is gruesome. This is terrible."
And then they look at that one building going, "Oh god, that's a special level."
Like Jesus, what the hell happened there?
>> Yeah, >> gruntled. That's what that's what happened there. But I I love how this shows because we we lost the god of war in Dead House Gates.
>> So now there's a new god in Ascension, the Treat, and that's where Gruntal is becoming the mortal sword arm of of Tree. So you start to see it's not all fun and roses on the metaphysical spiritual level either.
There's there's strife. No matter the [ __ ] god himself, no matter what layer you on of the story, there is strife. There can't be life without it.
There can't be forward movement without it. There is always apparently great strife. So, I love to see how some gods are falling. Some are coming in ascension. Some are coming back together uh that have been separated for, you know, our wolves at the end that have been separated for for hundreds of thousands of years. Yeah.
>> Talk the younger. Oh, I love I love his perspective. Oh, >> good old fun talk.
>> And now he is uh what a heartwarm Oh god, I I personally just loved the friendship between talk and um Oh, not not she. Oh god, I'm There's so many names.
>> There's so many names.
>> Uh >> what you you're talking about the Tana mask guy.
>> The Tana mass um tool. There we go.
Tulle >> Tulle the budding friendship and by the end you know Tulle is just on a beline to go save his one and only friend talk the younger and just >> the the friendship between how much like one a great setup with Tulle being the Tana mass seeing how empty the Talon I mass really are and to see Tulle >> identify and value the friendship with T and how much he's will sacrifice to save him and then the the the ending where talk doesn't remember him the parting between them was just so touching I I loved it was sad because they don't recogni or talk doesn't recognize uh tool anymore but it is beautiful >> and remember a few things about memories of ice remember the prologue remember go back to that prologue and remember it another thing to remember is the mas you know among all these races that inhabit this this world, you know, the Jagot and the various, you know, it's the Tanama, they're they're basically our ancestors, you know, the humans. Uh they're they're us in many ways and what they've done, what they've committed in this world, the genocide against the the Jags, >> the Jagets. Yeah.
>> Yeah. That's that's us.
>> That's us, >> right? So, keep that in mind as well, you know? But that undead marching army, that dusty undead army that carries all that weight of everything from all those hundreds of thousands of years that that Kovian makes a sacrifice for at the end.
>> Be beautiful character of all of the >> losing his entire like new found family.
He's now lost his position as the shield anvil but always feeling >> shield. Yeah, >> there's something he's still there's still the mission. There's still something that he has to do.
>> And the minute he sees the Tanai mass >> immediately sees their suffering and goes like I I must >> I must take their I must take their their burden. They're you just you love them. And in the moment you're going, "Oh no, we need the tooth. Don't don't do it now."
>> Yeah. Don't take them yet.
>> You're ruining the land.
>> We need to fight those dinosaurs.
>> Dinosaurs. Yeah. Yeah, >> but at a heart heartwarming moment like it just it's so impactful how much uh how much he really cares and that his purpose to take um take others suffering as his own it >> you know when when you and I and all of us have that same reaction wait we need these guys to fight the kaching chamal and all that but >> okay >> but is it when when is the right time to be compassionate.
>> Yeah. But Kovian never thinks that. He walks down there right away. Yeah.
compassion at every moment there like >> even if it does hurt the >> hurt the plan like there is a there is a right moment but I think the IMAS has a great uh they have a great question and when uh not just Yukovian but um uh Krepa actually talks uh talks with TA not Tatterale but >> silverf fox >> silver fox >> silver fox >> and says they've been fighting this for over 300,000 years.
>> Yeah.
>> What? If not now, when? We need them for one last fight. One last fight. One last fight.
>> There's always one last fight. There's always one last fight. Yeah.
>> And to talk about like, but we need them for the all this other It's like they they made this great sacrifice to take out the jacket.
>> Mhm.
>> The jackets are gone. There's one left >> and they're on the back foot. like they're disappear like at this point like at what point is enough enough? Is there going to be another enemy? It there if you keep thinking, oh, now is not the right time to put down the sword, there will never be a right time.
>> Yeah.
>> And so Yakovian seeing just the moment of nope, I see the suffering and I have to do it now.
>> I have to do it. and the subversion there. Like you've had this quite heroic character that you meet fighting the Velociraptors with Ginsus early on.
A a Coian is introduced like out there in the field. Quite a heroic character.
Makes it through the siege, makes it through all the way through up to the end. And for what is it? Some huge battle. Is it some moment where he goes mana amana with the with the big bad?
No, it's I have to take your pain. I have to connect with this is my calling. This is what I have to do as opposed to some high moment in battle. And that's why when everyone had to put something on his mound and take that moment with him, that's what it is so empowerful for me because here's someone on the field that did that and and they're getting that kind of send off. I I just thought was absolutely amazing. What a great what a great subversion of I at least I was thinking of the Tanai mask like okay they all want to die. They want to put it down. They they are so empty and they they they have outlived their gods which one >> cool concept like that goes pretty metal >> the army that has outlived their god.
They got nowhere to go after they after they die. And so they want to they just want to die. And you think like, okay, that is going to be the ending for them.
It's going to be the sad tragic ending.
>> But with taking their pain, giving them another another way, and now they can >> they can live again, but live with >> there is a place to go after they die.
They now actually have a chance to live.
>> Yeah.
>> Because their pain over 300,000 years has been taken. I I love that the talai mask get somewhat of a happy ending there, >> right? And they have that one more enemy, but it's one they choose that they that they learn of and choose to to make a difference and go fight. Yeah.
So, I I think a lot is said there about agency and choice. I I I love that. But I got to say one thing before we move on. In the midst of all of this freaking craziness, floating cities coming out of the sea and siege of Capistan, we get a little artist talking to a toad by a riverside because, you know, we should take a moment and talk about art and the importance of storytelling and painting these battles so they can live on with a with a toad because he Steven Bent in the best way, Ericson. So, but we got to have this meta moment about art and story in the middle of all this. But I thought that was just the best.
>> That's Ericson.
>> It's one of those moments of, >> oh, the artist talking to the toad.
>> Sure.
>> Walking past going like, >> sure.
>> Sure.
>> Another day ending in why, I guess.
>> Yeah, absolutely.
>> Is this a little weird? Sure. Is it completely out the realm of possibility? No.
Nothing is No, nothing is big swing after big swing. I just have Okay, we've been going a full hour and a half. I've loved every second of this, but like we just said, Tatterale, no Silver Fox.
The Old Emperor Emperor, no Shadow Throne.
I'm going to put this out there.
Whiskey Jack's got to come back. Like there's no way that his dead body just stays on a sunken moonspawn. Like yeah, got to be a return of Whiskey Jack. Man, I have to have me some more Whiskey Jack. I've seen so many people come back.
>> I If everyone else gets to The one character I do think is dead dead is Yakovian.
>> Oh yeah. No, no, no. I don't want him.
>> I It would take away >> I agree. It would be a detriment of to take away kind of his sacrifice.
>> Yeah.
>> Uniquely him with Coline made a sacrifice, but >> he's coming back too in some form or fashion like that was >> as is Duker >> possibly told.
>> We see Dooker telling the story of the chain of dogs in >> Yeah.
>> Well, oh, epic moment by the end of like, let me tell you the story of the chain of dogs >> of the chain of dogs.
>> Yeah. We get to go to the bar. The Bridge Burners open a bar like >> the remnants. The remnants of the Bridge who are suffering huge PTSD.
>> Oh, and how many of them die from that final battle?
>> I mean, they're done. This is it.
>> They're done. They they got they got mustered out, right? They >> they actually said, "We'll make it look like we're you're dead, like you're you're out, >> right?"
>> So So they open their bar and there's Dooker telling the story of the Chain of Dogs. So, >> yep.
>> Love that. Love me some more Dooker. I also really I'm trying to remember her name as well. Um she's one of the bridge burners that is what kind of like the spy. She like she just goes unnoticed.
>> Oh. Oh yes.
>> What's her name? I love >> her name basically says what she is. Uh yeah.
>> Blend.
>> Blend. Blend.
>> I I love blend. I love Blend so much of her just popping up and just people no one sees her and then the just the great joke of her you think she h she has this little stone she thinks is a magical talesman that allows her to you know stay hidden and blend into surroundings and she's like quick Ben you can take this that that maybe you won't get hurt and and then he looks at it he's like no you need it more >> and going wow that that I thought it would have been a magical stone She's just she's just got talent to hide. Like that's literally just a stone.
>> And quick bin with no talent cuz >> Oh yeah.
>> How many magicians are in that dude that we find out? Like we find out quite a bit about >> in in Memories of Ice as well. Like it it by book three, this is the other amazing thing. by book three and people say like book one to book two it's like oh it's a whole new place a new there's some ties to it and there's definitely ties to the world but by if you hang in by book three it's like all these characters are just getting cooler like they just keep growing and getting cooler >> some layers to these characters >> yes absolutely >> absolutely it's just if so far a as far as the three books go if I had to say like there's one character that is like the protagonist of Malazan of like the rule of cool. He's on the front. He's he's our guy.
>> It's QuickBen. QuickBen does seem to be >> our guy. I thought it was Whiskey Jack.
I thought he was our guy.
>> Well, I'm going >> and now it seems to be QuickBen.
>> There's There's something to be said with this new deck of dragons and pairing. There's something to be said with Anamander Ray carrying >> a lot of weight and and guilt from thousands of years and things that that he has to answer for or feels like he should answer for. So I there so many amazing characters. Duker himself from that chain of dogs from that from that march is still around. Like there's so many people like you said Fellison can't wait to get into it. I hope as I get back into it, I'm going to make a real effort of focusing on this into 2027.
I hope you guys will come along and and talk every step along the way with me because this has just been a great great time.
>> Thank you, John, for inviting me and Richard. It's always a pleasure to chat with you. So, >> Oh, it's pleasure is all mine. I'm I'm happy to talk with you guys. I'm so happy you guys invited me in to talk about Matt Malazan. I finally have someone to talk to about it. Poor Austin is a little slow.
>> You You got to let Austin know that uh for for one brief shining moment, he was replaced.
>> Every time I'm with you, John, you and you see me what you show me what our podcast really could be with Austin laying down.
>> I I'm I'm clipping that and putting it on my mantle.
>> Austin is irreplaceable.
>> Absolutely. Austin is the absolute best.
Richard, the best of fantasy, Dr. Chase, the amazing Dr. Chase. Thank you so much for being here, spending the time with me. I have been itching to just talk about this journey even though I'm only three books in since I put down Memories of Ice. So, thank you so much for giving a little bit of time with me tonight.
>> Thank you, John.
>> And thanks all of you who uh have checked this out. Let us know, have you started it? Are you going to start it?
Are you a big fan? Did you bounce off of it? Are you thinking about coming back?
Hit us up in comments. We're going to answer all of them. Uh just thanks so much for hanging out with us. We'll see you again here real soon on Talking Story.
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