This discourse skillfully employs hermeneutic nuance to bridge the gap between literal scripture and abstract theology. It illustrates how the strategic use of metaphor preserves divine transcendence when faced with the limitations of anthropomorphic language.
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DEBATE ARENAAdded:
Okay. Alhamdulillah everyone. We are live doing our debate arena after a few weeks hiatus and we're here to debate um with Sheikh Asad and Sheh Musab. any of your contentions against Islam or for a particular religion or ideology. Um, we're going to um prioritize non-Muslims who want to talk to us. Um, you can also ask us questions if you don't want to debate, you just want to ask about Islam, but we want to prioritize non-Muslims first and foremost and then later we might have time for Muslims. So let me just put the screen or the uh link here so that people can start joining.
And there we go.
I should pin it though. Hold on.
Where's the there.
All right.
How's it going guys?
So, anyone who joins um you should put your camera on um so that we can add you.
>> So, how are you guys doing?
>> I'm doing good. everything is going pretty smoothly.
Um, we want to let everybody know that even if you don't have an objection, but you want to learn about Islam, also you can, you know, uh, do join. Don't feel shy to ask any questions. Um, this is a da stream, so we're here to clarify, uh, any kind of, uh, maybe you heard something, you don't know if it's true or not. So you can always call in and we can have a discussion inshallah.
>> Yeah, definitely. That's a that's a good point. Um it's not only if you want to debate something, but if you have a question, you want to clarify something, you know, someone was asking me the other day. Uh just um hey, you know, I heard that uh we were talking about his religion. You know, he was asking me about my religion. Uh so he was saying that okay I heard you guys get these 72 virgins in uh paradise and is this true.
So how would you answer that brother Daniel? Because one is on one hand you have the narrative and then the other hand okay it's of course in Jenna we have uh the and so on and so forth. Uh but how would you answer that I guess in terms of like the nar would you just like yeah you know of course uh this is this is uh true or would you also in the answer kind of mention about the narrative as well and because the narrative goes beyond just you know it's like oh every Muslim is uh that's the reason they do all these crazy things it's just >> yeah I mean I don't know I don't see the reason to deny it like it's something that >> 70, you know, that's just an expression that means many like >> doesn't means it's limited to 70 actually. It's not limited, but um yeah, it's something that it the only reason that people have a problem with it is because of the influence of Christianity.
And Christianity compared to other religions just views, you know, that kind of intimacy in general as something sinful.
And so the idea of h doing something sinful in heaven, like that's blasphemous to them.
But we don't have that conception in Islam of course. Um why should something that is natural that um God has created us with um why should that just be considered sinful or inherently evil or vile? Like that's just a presumption from Christianity and it's not really a coherent one either. Um so yeah I mean that I would I would attack that assumption from Christianity and you know you can you ask men as well you know you want to be celibate for eternity okay like does that really is that appealing to you okay like so and a lot of the Christians they don't even have a coherent concept of the afterlife um they don't I think I Especially amongst Protestants like they don't have a clear theology on what the afterlife consists of like okay heaven what is heaven actually involve and do you have like a body is it a spirit what is the nature of heaven and you'll get differing answers depending on who you talk to. Yeah, I remember I was in college and uh the teacher, it was a religion's class um something to do with textual, you know, of the B text of the Bible. But anyway, uh he brought up that Muslims believe that paradise um people will be favored with all kinds of, you know, bodily pleasures as well, food and drink and also uh spouses, etc. And the whole class was like shocked. They were like, "What? Like, how how on earth?" Like, so I asked them, I was like, "What did you think you were going to be doing in heaven?" Like, you know, it's like a rewarding. And then, so they were like, "No, in heaven you're going to be in the presence of God and walking with Jesus."
And so I was like, you know, I don't I don't see, you know, the >> the motivation. Where's it coming?
>> No, no, not motivation. And I get it because we also believe in you know and Jenna like we'll finally see Allah and all of that and that's the highest pleasure of Jenna.
>> So it's not like a you know either this or that situation. I mean Allah is going to be favoring you in Jenna with what you find and what is enjoyable to you.
And there's nothing wrong with that. I I just they were surprised. They were >> surprised and they thought it was like funny. And I was like why is that funny?
>> Yeah. It's crazy because I was having the same conversation um but it was it was uh someone of the Jewish faith. So he was it was the similar thing like it was um there was no clear idea. I said so like what exactly is it? Is there a physical component? He said I'm still trying to figure that out. I'm just hoping that you know whatever happens is good you know. Uh so I was like uh okay that's pretty interesting because with for a Muslim uh it's very clear right what the next life um has. You have the you have, you know, the day of judgment, you have the misan, you have all these stages, then you have jannam and they're all described in pretty vivid detail and it's clear there's a bodily uh physical component to it as well. So it was very you know interesting to see that you know people they don't have a very clear perspective on that and of course and I had that same conversation that yes um you know he was saying okay we'll become like one with God or something like this. I do you guys believe this as well? I said, "Yeah, we have also this concept that the highest thing is the the of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, the pleasure of Allah and then the the seeing of Allah subhana wa tala. So it's in right in the second book at the very end you have all those hadith about and um what is it like about or something like this today I will give you my pleasure bestow upon me my pleasure and I'll never be displeased with you ever again and um then the other hadith is um it's about the uh the the sight of Allah They'll not have been given anything better better than uh you know seeing their lord or uh so >> huh >> the or the commentators mentioned that it will make them forget about the other pleasures of paradise >> or it will overshadow the other pleasures of paradise and it's in the Quran as well.
and then is glowing, right? And then seeing so subhan Allah. Uh but yeah, definitely like the the worldly aspect of Jenna, it's something that really helps us in to be motivated because while we're here, we don't have the pleasures of the next world. So here like Allah says about like the of Jenna, right? The drink of Jenna. So he still entices us with a lot of things of this but then al but he also draws a distinction like there they won't be intoxicated therein you know from that drink and um >> they won't have headaches and hangovers.
>> Headaches and hangovers. Exactly.
there. That also is a brings up another thing which we often get asked here which is like uh you Muslims um you do all of your good deeds in order to get paradise. So that's not really morally, you know, um upright.
You're just doing it because you're getting paid for it basically. So how would you guys uh respond to that?
They say that you're you're getting your reward and that's why you're doing it.
You're not doing it because you're trying to be a good person, you know, it's not internal. It's just it's almost like you're greedy for some sort of payout and that's why you're being moral or you're being good.
And the reality is that Muslims don't do it just because they're going to get reward or whatever. The punishment and the reward that's mentioned is to encourage to help to make it easier when you're faced with a fork in the road and a challenge. Uh or for people that would otherwise Oh man, the earth just shook again. Didn't drop those big trees. Uh for people that would otherwise actually do perpetrate some evil, they would have a moment of pause. That doesn't mean that everybody's evil or immoral and that everybody needs uh those promises in order to be good.
But it does help. For example, like the law, do you not break the law because you're going to be punished by the authorities? Or do you not break the law because you're a good person and you just don't, you know, do those things which would harm others or which would be harmful to yourself or which would be, you know, for whatever purpose the law is put in place. Um, and most people would say that no, no, we don't do it because, you know, I'm just a good law-abiding cit I'm just a good citizen. It's not because I'm going to be punished. The reality is that the punishment does serve as a uh counter to people that who would otherwise do those things.
>> Yeah. I mean the way that it's hard to understand why we do anything. It's hard to understand like >> why we make the decisions that we do.
Like obviously we have a will and we make choices but those choices are influenced by many different factors and it's not it's usually not the case that there's one determinative thing um that just that's what causes you to do make it one decision or another.
you know with everything else in the world um that we see in the creation like things are it's like cause and effect.
So if something happens like um you know the rain falls you can track the cause of that. There's a cause and effect like okay the clouds were filled with water like the moisture or whatever and how did that happen?
Well the sun evaporated water etc. like you can give a causal chain for everything. But when it comes to decisions that you make like when it comes to um I I choose to um you know drink this tea for example or I choose to hit someone or I choose to go to college like what is what is causing that choice? it's not as clear-cut or it's not as straightforward as looking at a causal chain or like just one thought that I had and that you know caused me to do that thing like usually it's a confluence of many different factors and sometimes we don't even know what those exactly has come together in our consciousness um or our nefs to uh make us or cause us to choose um to do one thing or over the other or to have one position over the other. So that whole idea of what exactly is human will, how does it function, how does it operate, how does it interface with our thoughts and our soul and like those are all things that we don't really know.
Um it's not really even in the on the cutting edge of philosophy or neuroscience, it's not really known. Um these are all still mysteries as far as human knowledge is concerned.
But when it comes to like religious motivations, when we are choosing to be good or choosing um to do the right thing, yeah, part of it like is our relationship with our creator. Like part a big part of our moral decision making is our relationship with our creator, but also how our creator has made us like our fithra what we find appealing just intuitively. like intuitively I feel like it's nice to take care of my family and um you know provide for them and care for them like that just feels good like naturally to me. Um but so that the fithra or the our intuitions or instincts are a big component. But then also like the relationship we have with our creator and any kind of relationship that you have with people is is based on like a mutual dependence. Obviously Allah does not depend on us but we depend on him for everything. So it's not just in the future in the that we benefit. We're benefiting now from Allah and benefiting from him and and all the all the blessings that he gives us that causes us to love him that causes us to really love him and want to worship him and obey him and then also he's Allah he's the creator he's the most powerful he's the all knowing and that just creates this awe in us this awe and this wonder and this um feeling of wanting to submit um and and literally bow ourselves elves or prostrate ourselves and then yeah in the future you know the inshallah we are granted paradise and that like even the promise of that is appealing that also motivates us. So, it's like many many different things and it's kind of too simplistic of a phenomenology to say that, oh, you're just there's a carrot dangling in front of you of paradise or 72 virgins. That's that's the reason that you do good things. Like, that's that's too simplistic and it's not accurately describing the motivations or the behavior of believers.
>> Yeah, it's very interesting about what you know, you talked about what motivates us. I remember they were talking about how so many things are subliminally put in our mind and we end up making decisions without realizing they were influenced by those. Like for example, some somebody says something about how blue is beautiful today and then tomorrow morning as you're choosing which jacket to wear, you just naturally put on the blue jacket because you just felt like it. You thought you felt like it, but it's actually like triggered by, you know, this discussion you had about blue the day before without even you realizing it at the moment when actually picking up the jacket.
So yeah, it's really complex.
>> And just before we wrap this up, um even from an internal perspective, right?
Like >> I'm gonna grab a water bottle real quick. I'll be right back.
>> Okay. Uh is my sound coming through?
>> Yep. Okay. Yes. Even from like an internal perspective like um like Allah says or or for for example a parent, right? The child wants to obey the parent when the parent says study let's study mathematics or let's study physics or whatever. uh but the parent um you know he he will entice the child by giving uh different other uh you know other benefits like okay if you do this I'll buy you this or I'll buy you that.
It doesn't mean that that larger motive to please the parent or to achieve the goal uh of you know that that subject is is not there but these are all things that also help and the parent does that knowing uh you know how that child is the same way Allah subhana t says um that human beings have been created weak and it's from the mercy of Allah knowing our weak nature that he gives us uh all these other uh motivations and all these other uh things uh to help with that. It doesn't mean that that the meta and major motivation is not there. But this is just the favor and the mercy of God um to allow us to um you know to be even more motivated uh especially in times of weakness you can say. So that's the way I would put it.
>> Yeah.
>> But yeah there's some people in the chat they're saying okay what's the debate about to be this is not a debate between us. Uh if somebody wants to come up and and uh mention something, they want to challenge Islam or they want to ask about Islam, uh you you're welcome to join the Streamyard link. Uh the link is pinned in the comments. Uh and uh we'll bring you up.
>> Yeah, we have someone here. So I'll add him.
>> Cool.
>> Hello.
>> Oh, it's old friend.
>> Hey. Hi, Daniel and the rest of the gang. How are you?
>> Good. How are you? Well, I'm going to present my case stating that Islam cannot be true and maybe you can uh square or unsquare the circle.
>> Sure.
>> All right. Uh it's a logical question.
So we are not going to argue about the hadith and not strictly logical question.
uh in Islam uh we have midnight prayer which is based on the hadiths that say Allah comes down in the early part of the morning and ask for who wants to be forgiven uh does that every morning that is only possible if uh the earth is flat because that would be morning time letters and then he goes that comes back the next day. Under spherical earth it cannot happen. So if the Islam is true then the earth is flat and if the earth is spherical then uh also Islam is flat untrue. The second part small part is uh there is a hadith which says that uh when the sun rises rises in between the horn of the Satan and you are you cannot pray during that time when the sun goes to the zenith right of the head uh goes in between uh the horn of the Satan and same thing when it's setting and that's all only possible if the earth is flat So this is why I conclude it's not true.
Now let's see your arguments.
>> So if you look in the sorry uh Masab or Daniel if you guys want to go first.
>> No you go first.
>> I was just going to make a simple thing in that if you check any of the commentaries of the Quran the scholars by and large um give a metaphorical meaning to these passages. So they'll say that um well there's two approaches right one is to take it literally but just say that because this goes beyond our understanding of God uh and how that actually happens um they'll they won't say how it happens or you know whether God because we know God doesn't uh move from place to place or something like that. So they they don't go into discussing it just they read it and they pass over it stick with the meaning without going into the explanation. The other approach which is adopted by probably a majority of the um is that uh it's metaphorical that God's mercy comes down uh in that part of the night and or his special attention is on that comes down at that part of the night. The second premise that um that can only happen if the earth is flat. I wouldn't agree with that premise um because the night travels across uh the earth. So there's always at some point in time uh there is a third of the night taking place. So the special mercy of Allah is directed in that one part of the night in that area in that place. So it's not illogical.
And then the same apply for the horn of uh shaitan because that's actually a time uh where we're prohibited to pray uh at the time of sunrise is prohibited time to pray and that's the time that the people who used to worship the uh devils or they used to worship um those spirits they used to worship them at the sunrise and at the sunset.
Well, there's also a third uh explanation. I asked the same question from Miyazi on his channel. I used to go there quite often.
>> Mustad.
>> Yeah. Muslim Nadim >> and he uh he told he asked me how does Allah come down? I said doesn't matter.
I don't care how he comes down. He says unless we know how he comes down we cannot answer the question. So he he took that that route.
>> So that's not a third possibility.
That's the first one that I mentioned that they just don't go into explaining who can't understand it. And the second one is what I gave you which is probably easier for you to digest or for others who have uh you know who are more curious about this and that's the >> well you know there are lot of stuff in Quran uh which is literal and is dismissed as metaphorical which I which I don't take it. So that's what it's literal.
>> I'm sorry. How do you determine it's literal when the scholars Quran who understand the language and the uh discussion they say it's metaphorical?
>> Well, it it says what it says.
Allah comes down every morning.
>> This is what it says.
>> It means Allah comes down every morning.
>> Every metaphorical statement. The Quran is a literary piece of work as well.
There's a lot of metaphor that's used.
So >> well at that time people understood the earth to be flat. So it can't be metaphorical.
>> Well scholar I mean the scholars they why did they give this explanation if they thought the earth was flat?
>> Well it's just it's not the what scholars said what Quran and the hadith say.
>> The Quran hadith doesn't say the earth is flat.
No, it doesn't say it's flat, but it tells you. It says Allah comes down every early part of the morning. If that's true, then the earth is flat.
>> Yeah. Even the you know even the newspaper or uh you know different uh websites or different journals they say uh if you go on Google you search today the sun set at what time does the sun set today? Um, and then it says, "Okay, the sun sets today at 7:50 p.m." Uh, and then you start saying, "Well, that's just what it says, you know." Well, that's what it says. Uh, that it says the sun sets. That mean Google, that means Google thinks that is splat because the sun wouldn't set. The sun doesn't really set.
>> That's correct. I know it's wrong. We all know it's wrong. But, uh, I want to know what time is going to be dark. So, that's what the time refers to. I mean Islam right from the beginning the whole concept is Allah is not a corporal entity. Uh so we don't believe that Allah subhanana wa ta'ala or God is physical uh in nature. So there's tanzi which is u we um free free Allah subhana wa tala from all sorts of physical uh traits. We don't speak about God in that way. And this is a meta um understanding or narrative of Islam. So >> from day one. So anything that contradicts that we know already like Allah says you know there are many ayat in the Quran you know that >> the Quran says that they forgot Allah so he forgot them.
Yeah, >> but we know God doesn't forget. So naturally we would metaphor >> the better what you just said right now one verse says that they forgot Allah so Allah forgot them right so does this mean do we just say oh yeah the Quran it says that God forgot them therefore God God should God forgets well that's what it says right in another verse says that uh you know God does not nor does he forget So um there's a there's a meta understanding that uh anything that comes you know underneath it's clear that you know this is not you know Allahh metaphor.
>> Well anyway I I want to thank you for trying to answer the question and then Daniel can make a suggestion for angry Jake if you don't mind >> for what?
>> Can I make a suggestion for angry Jake?
>> I think we should stick to just questions. So you asked your question and uh we can take >> No, just just one little suggestion.
That's all. It's like a friendly thing.
Not not like mean. I'm not going to say anything mean.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, next time next time next time when you greet him with assalamu alaykum Jake respond back with asalam.
I think that's funny. Anyway, have a good day guys.
>> Thank you.
>> Good to talk to you.
>> Thanks. Bye.
Yeah, I thought your point about the sun setting is very good because it shows that even in common language in English, uh there are terms that are inherently metaphorical.
>> Yeah.
>> And he didn't want to acknowledge that >> talking about special times and special places. I mean like special times especially.
>> So and this is this is a major issue that people are the issue of and maj the issue of language. Uh this is what trips like or confuses or makes retards the most basically honestly like you have this guy in the chat. He's like something chief zut. So uh you know you already know if he comes up what his question is going to be and uh like let me just preemptively answer. We've done that like a million times. So the word uh you know in the hadith and I'm not going to go deep into it but you have the you have the hadith um of right and then it says okay so it has the word of pursuing and uh so the the jin they were pursuing the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and they were going after him and so now they're like oh well it says this and then the main meaning is this.
So it's like um they can't they can't get past this sort of understanding that uh like there like okay I guess like why do those other meanings exist when you open the dictionary why do they exist and this was a unique scenario unique situation so therefore it's very it makes it makes a lot of sense there are there are indicators why why a non-primary meaning would be used so um you know people really need to get their act together on on this point like if You if you if you understand that language can be interpreted and there are just because something is interpreted it doesn't mean it's being interpreted away right like people think automatically okay um you know uh it's interpreted as maj so they automatically think you're trying to dismiss it or move away from it yes people can do that like Christians do that but Muslims we don't interpret things away when we say something is maj we're not doing that just because we want to get away from something and we can uh prove it from a principled basis like we have principled basis and uh you know logical reasons uh for that and it's in line with the larger understanding of Islam.
>> Yeah. We just come up it's like um it's like the lowest level of argumentation.
>> Yeah. The lowest level of argumentation is finding a verse or a hadith, interpreting it according to your own interpretation and saying, "Oh, this is a problem. Therefore, Islam is refuted."
Like that's the lowest level, lowest IQ.
That's basically the Islamic dilemma as well. Um like, oh, we read this and according to our interpretation, there's a contradiction here in the Quran. um because the Quran says it's preserved uh or or you believe that the Quran the previous scriptures are preserved but you're also denying the previous scriptures is a contradiction like this is the lowest lowest IQ whereas when we critique other religions like anyone can do that exercise like anyone can go in any religious tradition and find these contradictions based on your own interpretation like oh I just read the Bible or I read the Talmud or I read, you know, um, the Gita and I just go through and I, oh, this is a contradiction. This is a contradiction.
This doesn't make sense. Therefore, I've refuted your entire religion. Like, it would be stupid. Like, it'd be very stupid and no one would take that seriously.
>> Um, rather when we criticize religions, we say, well, this is actually your interpretation of these verses. Like for example or your interpretation like the Hindus like when I debated that Hindu it's like well your interpretation is that the ancient Hindus had spacecraft and we're doing like plastic surgery like that's what that's what you believe and you know let's talk about that.
Let's talk about if that makes any sense. But I'm still like it's your interpretation. That's what you believe about these texts. is not something that I'm impo imposing on that or like the the trinity or whatever issue. So yeah, they just can't get past that first level of >> Yeah, it's like argumentation.
>> Yeah, another example is like okay um what's the inah right that the sun is setting in the murky water. Oh well the sun doesn't set in murky water. Uh it's another example.
So how many things do we have like this in the English language like for example you could say well even in English we would say okay the sun set behind that mountain right so this is something very normal like in everyday speech and uh another example is like let's say somebody says okay the president's hand is in everything in the country right or something like this so it doesn't literally mean that his hand is in every cookie jar and in every uh every single place in the country it means that uh you know everything that happens it happens with is uh with this uh permission, right? So there are there's so many examples and it would be nice to have like a small short like uh course like a one-hour thing that just like relieves people of this uh you know this illness with everyday examples.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's not that we're trying to deny because there is some there is a kind of rebuttal like let me just play de devil's advocate against what you just said. Um >> well okay if you're saying that there's just things are just interpreted there's interpretations but then um the book is inaccessible like this there's no way to understand this Quran like the language here um whatever I read I don't get any meaning from it because anything that I think that I understand it's not the actual meaning or I shouldn't assume it's the right meaning. So how can I read this book actually come away with any information about God or about life and the hereafter etc. Like it seems like you're like you're creating this barrier which protects me from accusing your book of being contradictory but that barrier is so powerful that also prevents me from as someone who's seeking the truth from actually accessing any meaning from from that text. So isn't this aren't you shooting yourself in the foot?
>> No, because this is why the scholars of um usul and um I think even in general like for example interpreting the constitution uh or interpreting any text the the default is always the most primary meaning. However, when there are indicators then with those indicators they allow you to go to um uh to the meanings but those indicators have to make sense. So, for example, when I said, "Hey, >> huh?"
>> The nonah meanings.
>> uh the could you say that again? The non >> No, you said when there's those indicators, then they allow you to go away from the >> Yeah. Sorry. It allows you to go to the metaphorical meanings, right? And and remember, when we say apparent and metaphorical, just because apparent is not always intended. When we're reading a text, we are trying to arrive at the intended meaning. Right? This is our goal. This is our um what we're striving for, right? What does that mean? Principles of understanding. We're trying to understand that the person who spoke this uh text or said or or wrote this text, what does he intend? And we know that in language when people speak something, sometimes they intend what is meant um what is what seems to be what what is the most apparent and sometimes they intend what is not the most apparent. So for example, if I say um like like I just said earlier, the president's hand is in everything in the country, right? Uh versus if I say okay, my son's hand is in every cookie jar in the house, right? So one can be one is clearly um we know that the intended meaning cannot be uh the the most apparent, right? That's not the most apparent meaning. And for somebody to go from that most apparent meaning down to the uh metaphorical meaning is not dismissing anything. It's it's logical rather it's the only logical thing to do right and if you don't do it you're uh you know there's there's an issue and if I say okay you know I saw that my you know my my son his hand was in I don't know whatever uh some other um real example like what what what's the process that goes on in our mind like our mind automatically understands the the indicators based on you can say even induction induction of the language right of the language and so that's why if you don't have induction of the language at all. You have no um authority, right? You have no authority to even say that this can be um this is the most apparent meaning or this is metaphorical or when the metaphorical is intended and when the apparent is intended because you don't have any you don't have a data set at all. So yeah, you can open up a dictionary, right? And in the dictionary, it just lists um it lists a bunch of um definitions like for right, the first four or five definitions will be to ride XYZ. And then the fourth or fifth one will be to pursue, right? But what is in the Arab mind? The person who speaks Arabic, classical Arabic, who's been trained in that. We don't just mean a random Arab off of the streets of Egypt. Uh we're talking about somebody who's trained in classical Arabic. So when will his mind right the mind that's been trained in the language that is that has um taken in the language through osmosis when will his mind go from one to the other naturally based on induction so that's what that's the way I see it like at the end of the day the huja is the person who holds who's a bearer of the language that's the uh authority and um you know that's why the language has been preserved and uh ultimately uh this is why we uh like when when a verse is interpreted we look at the experts of language the experts of and so on and so forth. And their consensus matters because their consensus shows that these are authorities of language. These are authorities of exogesis xyz and they they together based on their collect collective induction agreed that this here the majaz is the intended um the the metaphorical meaning is the intended meaning. So >> yeah and their view holds weight also because they're closer in time to the you know prophets's era a lot of the times and um they would have a better sense of you know usages of the language as well.
Yeah, I think that there can be a balance. You can say that um >> the default is that >> the Quran >> just well the Quran is something that has been revealed to all of humanity um and as such is revelation to all of humanity. So it's accessible to all of humanity just based on shared human nature and so we have shared assumptions. But just because it's accessible, that doesn't mean that everything within it is going to be understandable just on the basis of your language um or your background. So, and this is what the Quran says uh itself.
You know, there are certain there's the um clear-cut verses, the ones that are very clear and the ones that are um more ambiguous or they're not as clear-cut.
So that's we don't have to have like one appro we don't have to say that oh well everything in the Quran is h you have to go through a taps to understand it or you have to go through scholarly interpretation yeah like for the definite pinpointing exactly what everything means yes but just for the sake of understanding like people can access access the Quran they can access even statements of the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam and that's the basis on which they judge Islam to be true >> and also in that same verse you mentioned mentioned it also gives a kind of like a very primary rule as well. It says the so the are going to be the framework around which the will be interpreted. So you can't come for with an interpretation or a meaning of the mutab or the ambiguous verse which would in any way contradict the >> right.
Yeah. And even inul there are levels right. So you have nam you have all those different levels. So um the ones that are the most uh clear which which don't accept they don't accept uh interpretation because there's no multiplicity of possibility. Um so there's no um and and uh because of that you're locked in and then um you know there there so this is talking about right it's talking about the the the the level of indication of the of the text um and so some are such that their indication is conclusive and in nature right >> yes uh so they they don't accept any uh there's no second possibility like right and then so there's levels to this and we're specifically talking about like the whole thing that we mentioned we're talking about those uh ayat that have that have um you know less than that level you can say >> okay so we're still looking for non-Muslims to join what we can do is probably take a Muslim uh if there is one back there. By the way, another another interesting point is that you could have something which is maj and it's and it's right like it's established with so for example um that Allah's two hands are open right so this we would say is that this Allah does not have two hands two physical hands so even though the is that but the maj is established you know uh conclusively.
So that's another interesting point.
There's a long question here in the uh >> current Muslim but um if you want to respond to it because it's this related to the discussion that we just had.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. If somebody has you know a genuine question you know just you can feel free to come up and ask. We're not going to jump down your throat.
I think everyone who is waiting is um Muslim.
>> Cool. Let's bring on a Muslim for for now.
>> Okay.
>> How are you?
>> Yeah. Uh I'm doing good. Um how are you doing?
>> Good. Alhamdulillah. Um you had a question that you were asking in the private chat if you want to ask it.
since we're on this topic now.
>> All right. So, uh the main thing about that I have realized like I have read the Quran, I read the translation and the as well. I like there's a very famous debate that goes on in the Muslim area about whether uh the things mentioned in the Quran like of Allah are they actually like should be they be interpreted literally or they should be taken metaphorically.
So one side of the argument is that everything is to be taken literally.
Fatal has mentioned that like the ayat you mentioned right now that the the kufur say that the like the and they say that the but both the hands of Allah are open. So uh that is one side of the argument. The other side is that taking everything metaphorical which is say that no everything Allah mentioned when he mentioned that the hands like yeah it's about giving like Allah tala gives to everyone. So uh in that side also like the other ayats of the Quran mention about the like the angels that are near the do forgiveness for the believers and other ayats also that mention like that. So how do we reconcile between these two very different like paradigms because I think both the sides kind of uh >> can I ask you a clarifying question?
What does the ar have to do with theat of Allah?
Sorry, I don't mean the sifat of Allah, but um it's about uh like uh sorry um I meant that it it means about uh like what Allah like trying to understand uh the the attributes of Allah. Yeah, it's ahat only if you can clarify.
>> No. So you mentioned the ar something about the ar but I'm just trying to understand your question. So trying to understand what the ar has to do with theat of Allah that's that was part of your question. Right.
>> Right. Right.
>> Yeah. So I mean the ayat about it's not metaphorical. We we believe those to be um you know literal and not all theat also there's only some of theat what they call um uh is basically those attributes of Allah subhanahu wa tala which aren't referring to attributes they're referring to parts they were referring to physical body parts uh those are given by some scholars possible majazzi meanings there's two approaches they take one approach is that they say we don't go into the meaning of it because you know it's not it's not known to us and the other group of scholars say that we can give certain possible meanings right >> um interpretive meanings which are in line with other texts of the Quran so for example uh like his hands are open they would say that this is this can be interpreted to mean generosity and We establish the generosity of Allah subhana wa tala through multiple texts. Uh we don't have to pin down that he has two physical uh limbs, right? They only deny limbs. You start with danzi. Both sides do that. I mean whether you're saying we don't know the meaning or you're saying or we don't know the exact meaning or you're saying that it could possibly mean this metaphorical meaning. Both of them start from the premise of Tanz means that they would um uh negate for Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala any kind of deficiency.
So at the end of the day the whole effort is to negate any kind of defect or deficiency or limitation to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. But then how they go about doing that it differs.
Uh but there's other which don't imply any kind of deficiency or defect to Allah subhana wa tala. For example, like Allah is he has all knowledge. That doesn't imply any kind of deficiency. So there's no need to do tanz and there's no need to do tanz then there's no need to go into different roots of explaining it.
>> Right. Right.
Oh yeah.
Okay. Um, let's see.
This person says I think this person also says they're Muslim.
Hello Hello.
>> Yes.
>> Yes. What's your question?
>> You hear me?
>> Looks like Amazon has the prime color.
>> Do you hear me?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah, we can hear you. Please go ahead.
>> Hello.
>> I am a long supporter than of you. Yeah.
for all what uh are you doing? So >> uh there is one insert if you want uh we can discuss about it. It's the fourth you know it.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. So um I want to argue that uh this is speak about Muslims not what we mean about Ben Israel is now. So it speak about us and we are uh or maybe the Leantine Muslims are doing this promise and in the end of the surah Allah say that uh So it go back to your point of unity that in the final times Muslims will unite to defeat the antichrist and every and the ahood and the Christian that's my point if you want to elaborate on it and thank you so much >> which wait I didn't understand your argument so you're the fourth ay and then what what was the thing that you're saying.
>> Oh, in the end of the third, Allah come back to this promise again and he say when the last promise will come.
So we will uh bring you all together uh for the second for the last promise the last promise of going to this surah is about as you know it maybe.
>> Yeah.
>> So yeah >> it's a subject if you want to discuss it or maybe go to another person or Yeah. I don't know because the first one you mentioned it says so how would you say that that's for Levventine Muslims?
>> Okay. So beni is are uh are like people they are not a belief they are not a belief system. Bi is are people are people who come from Israel.
They are not Yahood or Nasara or Muslims or anywhere. They are people. So it's like it's it's a race. Yeah.
>> Or you mean linguistically?
>> Linguistically and Quran and everything.
Ben is for example when Jesus came Allah said they are capable of belief and disbelief they are not like monu they are not the same they are not all the time every in every era of the history no they are from them Jews Christian and Muslims or not for example the Sahabah of Allah many of them are from Beni Israel. Even the uh wife of uh Allah, I think it was called Safya. She was from Beni Israel and his maybe three or four Quran means the uh I don't know how to uh translate it.
>> They are people who are from Beni Israel. Many like many many many people from Beni Israel. And when Omar when the Sahabi called the Omar opened the event many of them entered to Islam for centuries to come they are from Islam. So Allah here is speaking about these Muslims uh who are in in uh who who will go misled then come back to Islam.
I don't know how to explain it much, but >> I understand what you're saying. You're saying that the could be the people that are living in the Levant, right? That's what you're saying.
>> They are the people living in the the Levant. For example, Palestinian now are 95% of the DNA of the people who are who lived with Jesus. For example, they they are 100% like they are they uh Ben how or how to say >> they're children. They're pro their descendants. Yeah.
>> Yeah. They their descendants. Yeah. But you see in the ayat right before that Allah talks about how he favored the ban is by sending them theat and he made that a guidance for them in the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> So it's >> Yeah. and and and and and then uh Muhammad rasool Allah came and he continue the same message to the same people of Beni Israel of the uh Levant all that area Egypt Levant and northern it's all of the of Beni Israel >> means like we sent down to them right that they would commit in the earth. the facad would be breaking the laws of theat and that right >> how what not >> that no no no it means in the future it's not in the past it's it's a promise in the future it's not in the past no not in the past. Yes. But it's a promise >> promise that was sent to them in the past about the future.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's a long uh it's a long discussion, but yeah, I appreciate you, but maybe uh we'll look into it. It's interesting.
>> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Um, let's see. This person is waiting for this camera.
Can you hear me?
>> Yes.
Um, so it's not really related to the topics we've been discussing, but uh, Daniel, I watched like a like a a live stream of you guys talking about technology industrialization that you made a few few years ago. Uh, I would have to disagree with your claim that industrialization caused moral decay in society. I would argue that um, it was mainly caused by reba or ribba based capitalism, not necessarily industrialization or technology itself.
Like if you look at the rise of feminism and um yeah like the rise of feminism it it I think it more correlates with like the rise of ribba based financing and financialization of the economy rather than like industrialization because industrialization could started like 200 years ago in 1760 but um it took like like full force feminism started like maybe around like 1960. So there's like a big time gap and since we started industrializing or uh recently we started de-industrializing and like morals K has only gotten worse. So that's kind of a starting point of my argument.
>> But just to clarify, did Daniel say that industrialization is the only uh cause for moral decay or >> um I think he said that like it was like the main cause. That's what was kind of implied.
>> Yeah. Um, >> so the argument you have your counterargument is about timelines like you said 1960. What happened in 1960?
>> Like uh like like that's when feminism started to become like super popular.
>> The problems with feminism like they started long before 1960. like they started actually in the um 19th century, the 1800s. Like that's when feminism really started to have an impact on societies.
So it's not 1960, it's actually um back in the 19th century and that's also when industrialization was happening.
>> I argue that um go ahead. you're saying >> I would argue that like feminism as an idea existed like ribbut doesn't cause the idea but it's like an engine of change that actually like propels it into full force. So like feminism I would argue that like society was still like pretty traditional before like 1960. Um but like even if feminism existed as an idea, it still hasn't like like extremely impacted society on that the extent that it started to in 1960.
>> Yeah. But ribba also existed long before feminism.
>> Ribba has also ex existed before industrialization. I mean the thing about ribba is it is important factor with industrialization like the ability to get capital um the ability to get capital that funds research and development like that's something that um requires ribba because a lot of the loans that um like some of these initial companies that were formed in Europe they require they took up a lot of ribba. So and and if you look at the Muslim world as well like in um Egypt for example um or even the subcontinent uh the Muslims were starting to take up loans like big loans from European banks in order to industrialize and those loans had high interest like up to 25% interest rates. So it is uh ribba is definitely a critical component of industrialization.
Um so that I agree with you that uh ribba is bad and that it causes all kinds of problems but um the industrialization like we have to look at the impact of that as well on society and those are clear effects and it's not just feminism like it's liberalization it's materialism uh rise in atheism that's created because of increase in uh science-based thinking or utilitarian and thinking. So it's a confluence of many different factors.
>> Um yeah. So I guess kind of connecting the first point about ribba existing before industrialization and like um there being different factors. I would argue that secularization was actually kind of caused by ribba. Like if you look at how sp like um like European colonialism started around like when Spain started it and like u when Columbus starts when Columbus discovered the Americas that's when they start to kind of explore and there was like economic incentive to start to colonize but um they didn't have like the startup capital and kind of like what you said they they needed fast startup capital to to explore and colonize Um but of course like usery like pro is like prohibited in Christianity.
So they made like um like legal legal um what's the word legal workarounds um to like get around the reba prohibition. So they basically changed their religion to um to like try to like per make robot permissible. Um and I I feel like that kind of like started the ideological transformation that led to secularization.
Because instead of like having a focus on like the afterlife like Christianity teaches, um they started to uh like have a more like junior focus like outlook on life and uh started like and they started using they wanted ideological justification to colonize the Americas um and to ideologically justify getting more like um like profit and like gold and stuff.
So um because of that that like changed their that changed them to have like a more a more focus on the dunya and um and like have like less outlook on like the afterlife. So and you can see >> Christians were colonizing many places like imperial Christianity existed after the 3rd century common era uh third or fourth century rather it's not something that started um with Christopher Columbus. So if you have a problem like with imperial Christianity like um colonization crusades like that all that's like the entire history of almost the entire history of Christianity. It's not something that started recently like the the issue like there's a difference between post enlightenment colonialism and imperialism that's what's really created the modern world um and secularization like the Christopher Columbus wasn't a secular person um and Spain wasn't secular in the 15th century um you know that those developments came later and it was post enlightenment you know in the uh 18th 18th and 19th centuries. So yeah, that has nothing like it's not that has nothing to do with ribba in particular. Like yeah. Well, for the first point, I would argue that like imperialism is different from colonialism. Like colonialism is a lot more extractive and that has like that's the extractiveness of colonialism. I I would argue has directly to do with ribba. um like Christianity like the Roman Empire, they were like expansionists and they conquered like new lands and stuff but I wouldn't say like they they extracted like the level that um European Christians did during the time of colonialism. And I think like the main reason for that was like rebel was was like um systemic and systemized within like the um like once like Columbus started like in like the the 16th century um like starting in the 16th century. Um, and I would argue that like um your second point about uh um ribbon not being related to secularization like maybe they they didn't formally secularize but like like practically they kind of were economically um because like the the church became like a state tool basically. It didn't have any independent autonomy in Spain at least. Um and and like they started to use it like instead of like actually having like um religious using religion as like a like a separate ideological basis they use it to they use like religion to conform to economic standards. So like with Spain instead of like um um they try to they try to change the religions in order to justify economic extraction. Um, and instead of like like some I guess I you can make the argument that Christianity is is like violent, but there are some verses that encourage peace and you I I would say that like they completely ne neglected those peaceful verses just to justify colonial expansion thereby changing the religion which I would argue that Ruba was like kind of the cause for that.
every you know every major civilization in history has been expansionist and so it's not something that started with Christianity it's not something that started with um the west um or Islam like every ci major civilization um even prior to recorded history like we don't even have necessarily the um remnants of some of these civilizations but through DNA analysis like genetic analysis you can see that there were major conquests historically that led to forget about like taking resources like they would just take the women like they just take the women and that's something that you can see in the DNA like the DNA reveals that these um you know there was a people that was conquered and the women because you through the X uh chromosome you can tell like the women were taken and the Y chromosome is from a different from the male side is from a different people.
So on the basis of that you can see that women were actually taken and made into concubines or sex slaves or whatever you want to call it like the remnants are there. So that's this is something that is ubiquitous. It's part of human history. It's not you know the thing that really distinguishes our time from previous times is the technology is the industrialization.
It's, you know, certain ideologies of secularization, liberalization, it's not something that um that's something different from the past.
>> Thank you, brother.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Take the next caller now. Thank you.
>> Okay. Let's see. Let's see if this is a troll or a real person.
>> Hello.
Uh yeah. So I just have a question. Uh basically, you know, in the Quran where it says that where Allah asks Jesus, did you take did you uh did you tell the people to take you and your mom as deities?
And uh the way that was explained to me is that uh it's because uh as far as Jesus, yeah, it was like in the literal sense. But for Mary, it was uh because they uh would I guess do like dua to her, ask her for was it her intercession or were they asking her to literally uh of her own uh valition and her own abilities to do things for believers uh of the of the Christian faith.
>> Was my question clear?
Yeah, I think uh with this ayah the way I I've understood it and uh it's like on the day of judgment people will say it's in the in the court of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala um that okay you know Jesus told us to worship him or so in the court of Allah when they bring this bring this Allah will ask isam as well maybe can shed some light >> I think his question is that uh when Allahh asks that did you tell people to take me and my mother as two gods other than Allah? I think his question is that Jesus is understandable but why does why is Mary mentioned? Is it because people used to make intercession through Mary or is it because people actually thought that she was a goddess?
Yeah. Like that she could actually do things herself like grant you wealth, you know, without going through God and stuff like that.
>> Yeah. I think even there's a lot of Christians now that they're treated like >> like don't Catholics like isn't that the whole thing? Like >> I I I was like I spoke to a Catholic or whatever a Christian or and I won't say a person of knowledge or anything but from his understanding is they pray to Mary for like intercession. Uh, I think the Hail Mary prayer, although I don't know it and I don't I can't say I've read it, but isn't the Hail Mary prayer asking for her intercession? And isn't that the main way that they they try to address her like when they pray to her?
>> Well, I would say there's two kinds of Christians. Those that actually take her as a like a god and they pray directly to her and there are those that just, you know, intercede through her, I guess. Uh, and yeah, so there would be a distinction.
I is that like a fact? Like are you saying that like do you know for sure that there are Christians who pray to Mary or because I've never heard like I've like I've never heard of that personally like >> well the Quran mentions that they took her as a other than Allah as a means something that's worshiped.
>> So it means that at the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam there were Christians that were worshiping Mary.
>> Okay. So that that could be applicable to the time of the prophet but maybe not modern Catholics.
Maybe maybe not. There might be some Catholics that, you know, still actually worship, you know, they prostrate or they they'll perform acts of worship to Mary.
>> Okay. So, you would say that the fact that they were asking if if like that that verse would not be addressing asking her for intercession essentially is what I'm understanding.
>> Asking her for intercession or asking asking >> for her intercession. Yeah.
>> Yeah. To God.
>> Yeah. for her interc no for her to intercede uh for you in front of God for any sort of uh >> yeah one is them asking for intercession then one is actually worshiping when you the word is used is talking about worship itself >> okay so >> so the verse itself is only addressing worship and not uh asking for her intercession right >> yeah it's talking about uh worship right they used to take him as gods kind of how the the kufur of Makkah sometimes they would intercede to Allah using the smaller gods. Sometimes they would worship directly the smaller gods.
>> Okay. Okay. I just wasn't aware that there's actually that Christians ever did pray to her directly. So I wasn't aware of that cuz like I know I feel like modern Catholics don't do that. But uh I'm uh I'm I'm not aware of any past peoples that did. Maybe they did. Maybe you're right. So I I guess I'll just I'll just leave it at that.
>> There are Christians that accepted Islam at the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. And um you know they didn't deny uh obviously this ISO it means that this was >> yeah true that's a good point.
>> Yeah >> there are historically Christians who um worshiped or did rituals for Mary specifically. So, coloridians, I think they're called. They're 4th century.
Um, these are not much information is known about them, but they seem to have rituals specifically for Mary as if they're treating her like a goddess.
And uh it's not it's not difficult to see like how people can be elevated to status of gods. Like this happens in many religions. This happens in Hinduism as well person status >> Jesus in the same it >> happened with Jesus. So like why is it so hard to to think of it as impossible that that could be done with Mary?
>> Yeah.
>> But um and I think the modern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox they do like um pray to Mary. They have prayers specifically for Mary. Now, they don't necessarily see Mary as a god explicitly, but the verse can be referring to like, okay, like the verse could be referring to how Christ Christians understand their own theology, in which case they don't see Mary as a god, or the verse could be referring to the reality of the situation. Even if they don't they don't view Mary as a god in their theology, they're still acting as if Mary is a god or object of worship or um so e either one like it's >> practical worship is to treat you know is only for God. So when they practically worship uh the uh Mary uh even though they don't say she's a god they're practically worshiping her. So they're treating her as a god.
>> And it seems you're very um your question is linked to today's practice.
Even if we steal man that and say that there's no Christian who worships Mary today um that still doesn't um you know do anything because historically like for example that the Jews they said that is the son of Allah. uh it doesn't mean all Jews for all time and even if all Jews today deny that we have this uh belief then there there was a histo there was a historical group that did have this belief and the same could be said for this ayah as well >> okay no I can uh I'll take that as the answer can I ask a quick question about the Islamic dilemma >> sure yeah so um so like all the arguments that Christian apologists make on the most part I think are pretty weak. Uh the one that kind of I guess uh I'm having a more of a difficult time understanding is uh although I'm in my car right now so I can't pull up the exact passage in the Quran but there is a section and correct me if I'm wrong where it's where he encourages the the Jews to judge by the the Torah and encourages the Christians to judge by the and then tells the Muslims to judge by the Quran and that the prophet peace be upon him should uh judge in between them all and um what's what does it say and and that the Quran is the authority over them but and that in that in that all these people should race to do good and in front of the Lord and God would have made us all one people had he wished for there to be no differences.
So my layman understanding of this is uh that like it's literally encouraging the the the people at the time of the prophet to judge by the Torah for their community, the Christians to judge by the angel or whatever they have whatever remnants they have of it I guess and uh for for us as Muslims that have followed the prophet during that time because I think it's speaking of that time to judge by the Quran and that being you know the the correct the correct uh the most final judgment and the and the the correct the most correct way to go about it. Uh so like and then like uh somebody tried to explain it to me to say oh they were talking the verse is talking about the the Jews of the time of Musaf for example that uh they should judge by the Torah and then the the the Christians at the time of Jesus should judge by the inj and the Muslims and everybody now should be judging by the Quran. So like what's what's your uh I guess your understanding of that verse and um how did how is it classically understood like if you could just shed light on that.
>> Well just keep it simple like the Jews of the time sallallahu alaihi wasallam they say we don't want the Quran we don't accept the Quran we have our own book which we use and which we judge by.
So the Quran challenges them that if you say you believe in the Torah they didn't judge by it because they weren't actually applying it. they would uh circumvent its rules and make loopholes and things. So the Quran is giving them a challenge that okay hold to your word then actually judge by the tora. That's that's the only thing the verse is saying. It's not saying the use of Moses or anything like that.
>> Okay. So I no I get that argument but in the I don't know about the the verse with the Torah but uh specifically the one with the bad in it does say like if you don't do this then you are like disobedient and you're not like it's almost saying it's almost saying like you you have to do this or else you're disobedient to your Lord. like that's like I'm not I can't verbatim, you know, >> because in the according to their theology like God has sent down rules for them and if they don't follow those rules and they're disobedient to God according to their own theology, but they weren't following their books.
>> So, okay. Okay. Well, if I had the verses in front of me, I could kind of try to uh put your argument to it and see if I agree, but I don't have the verses in front of me, unfortunately.
you can uh go back and check them and inshallah see if we can sort it out when you have them in front of you.
>> Yeah, I really appreciate your time guys. Take care.
>> Hello.
>> You're muted.
>> Muted.
Okay, we can hear you now.
>> Can you hear me now?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. How are you?
>> Yeah. I'm just asking I just want to know Daniel, you know, Halal Zoomer, he posted a clip of you like I don't know if it's real or not. Uh sitting with Nick and Dan Brazilian and I don't know if it's real of his AI.
>> Uh that's real. Yeah, >> that's real. So is it like a podcast something going to be released or is it something else?
>> No, this was from two years ago. So it was just a private meeting.
>> Oh, okay. Yeah, that's fine. I have another question about the recent, you know, the UFC fight and there's a lot of criticism on Khazmat about him shaking hand with uh the the Strickland. So what do you think about that? Because there's like two opposite views about that. So what do you think? Should he have shook his hand or should he have like be like habib?
>> Uh I don't know. I don't know what was the context of their private discussion or I um >> said a bunch of bad things about uh I don't think he said anything bad about Islam. I did he say anything bad about Islam or he said that he was >> Yeah, he said he said bad things about Islam but he apologized like >> didn't he apologize like at the fight like in his victory speech like he apologized to Muslims specifically >> so I don't know I don't >> yeah that's what he says when he says that he bowed down and apologized to him and I think that That's really good.
People shouldn't like criticize him doing that. Like he said, I'm a man who who forgives people when they beg me for forgiveness. So he said he bowed down and apologized. So I think it's fair for him to apologize. But I see a lot of people criticizing him for like standing his ground and and what he said about Islam, he didn't he did say something about like Muslims but not like directly about Islam. He said they are goat and stuff like that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, I think that um maybe other things were happening behind the scenes, like maybe it was a lot of the hype was just to promote the fight, but it's I don't know. So, but he apologized. So, if he wants to shake his hand, I don't see an issue with that.
>> Yeah, that's fine. And the last thing is about you know the recent video about Muhammad hijab calling out like people calling everybody kafir on small issues and then Ali Dava calling him CIA not realizing he does the same thing.
>> Yeah that's funny. So Akida checking like his production of the US government or the CIA. So >> all right thank you brother. Take care.
>> Uh, okay. So, I mean this uh these are just Muslims. So, >> yeah, >> non-Muslims just checked out.
>> By the way, how was your weekend uh in New York?
>> Good. Alhamdulillah. You know, had a good trip to New York. Spoke at Brooklyn College. That was the purpose of the trip was just to go and give a talk there. Um, which was good. There are a lot of Muslims and some Jews there as well. Um the Jews Jewish students asked some questions. Uh were respectful for the most part. Didn't have any issues and uh yeah then met with some gave a talk at a masid met uh scholars and spent time with Sneo which was really nice. Um and yeah and we actually spent time with Sneo and went to um his place to watch the this actual fight between Kamzat and the other guy Strickland. So but uh it's yeah those kinds of fights I it's just like it's a Muslim versus someone who is very bitterly anti-Islam.
So otherwise it's not interesting to me like it's not and the permissibility factor.
>> Um >> yeah I had myself.
>> What was the uh what was the topic of the Brooklyn is is that is that something that's going to be published later on or anything or was it recorded?
>> The topic of what >> the one that you did at Brooklyn College.
>> Uh it was just about Judaism and Zionism and >> um the war on Iran. So I might publish that clips clips of it were published but um the talk that I gave at the mid was a little bit more material that I haven't presented before like it was kind of a history of um the Napoleon uh Napoleon's invasion of Egypt and the immediate aftermath of that. So that was um that material I haven't covered before. That was the first time I was presenting it, but that it was recorded, but it wasn't I don't think it was the best quality. So, I don't know if I'll release that, but uh we'll see. I'll present the material probably in other videos and stuff, but yeah. So, >> juicy detail from Napoleon's conquest of Egypt.
>> Yeah, sure. Um, you know what I was what I was struck by with Napoleon is do you know the reason that because Napoleon in 1798 coming into Egypt occupying Egypt that was seen as like the beginning of postenlightenment colonialism of the Muslim world.
>> It was before the British. It was before the Dutch. It was before the Russians.
Like so what what do you think spurred that? Like why did Napoleon specifically come to Egypt?
Do you know >> that particular country?
It was specifically because he was at war with the British and he thought strategically it would be smart to um cut off the land bridge between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean that the British like over 70% of their um like their economy was based on goods coming from India or coming from you know the Indian Ocean.
So he wanted to cut that off uh or from China rather and he wanted to cut it off. Um so he occupied Egypt for that purpose uh because >> the original state of Hormuza.
>> Yeah, exactly. So the original straight of Hormuz it was the Suez Canal wasn't built yet. It wouldn't get started being built until 1859.
But um you know they wanted to control that economic corridor. So that's why they occupied Egypt and then the British had to come in and basically get rid of the French. So they allied with the Ottomans uh the British and the Ottomans to kick out Napoleon.
But then um yeah that just started a chain reaction that led to modernism. It led to the Egypt like being modernized by Muhammad Ali and you know implementing all this industrialization which led to a debt spiral. So they got into a lot of debt as well. Like after Muhammad Ali, his grandson Ismael Pasha was really trying to westernize and Europeanize Egypt and he incurred a lot of debt at high interest to British and French banks and then the Suez project as well creating the Suez Canal. So yeah, this this led to like a chain reaction. The Suez Canal was threatened by a revolt, the Urabi revolt. because you had Egyptians who were tired of being under debt um but under the British and French and they felt like the elites were not doing things for the Egyptians. So there was actual revolt and then the British came to crush that revolt. Prior to that, the British weren't really didn't have like a military presence in Egypt, but they came and crushed that revolt to secure the Suez Canal and that led to the like occupation of Egypt, taking over Azar like Lord Chromemer and and everything that came with that when Muhammad Abdu and so forth that was that was due to in securing the Suez. So so much of so much of the Middle Eastern history and Islamic history is in the modern period is around securing economic corridors like the western powers trying to secure.
So yeah, it's like Hormuz is part of a long pattern of this in history.
>> Interesting.
>> That's pretty cool. Do you have any other debates coming up soon?
Uh I have a debate that's going to be happening with um uh at Debatecon in Dallas inshallah on July 25th that's going to be against uh this god logic. Um and it's on Trinity versushed and um then I'm going to have a debate with a with a she u with a she scholar or self-titled scholar. So that but that's going to probably be in late August or September.
>> But I'm just very busy with this other project that I'm trying to finish these other projects. So that's why I'm not streaming as much and that's why I'm not debating as much as I would otherwise.
So let's see.
>> I mean I think we can end the stream for today.
We can end we have like now more guests but >> sure another yeah as as you like you know whatever you feel >> but I don't know if he's not Muslim like these are all Muslims so >> I'm okay with taking um I mean as long as it's not the same because I think last few weeks we've been getting the same theme the same question like time after time. So >> voodoo and Louisiana voodoo.
>> Yeah. And guys, when you come up like do mention if you're Muslim, non-Muslim, and I think it's good to put your question in the chat. That helps us really at a time.
>> So this voodoo says I'm not Muslim.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Hello.
>> Yes. Hello. How y'all doing?
>> Good. How are you?
>> I'm doing well. and um thanks for having me up and uh I'll try to make it brief and um I won't rush to judgment to assume your position, but my question is are you all willing to condemn Muhammad for marrying Aisha when she was six?
>> No.
>> No.
So you have no sympathy for the trauma that Aisha endured >> by being assaulted by a man in her 50s in his 50s, pardon me, while she was >> Are you a Christian?
>> Are you a Christian?
>> No. As you can see, as you can see, my name is Hudu in Louisiana. Voodoo.
>> So you what then?
>> You're atheist.
No, I practice hudoo and Louisiana voodoo.
>> What's hudoo?
>> Hudoo is essentially the traditions of ancestor acknowledgement that descendants of US chatt slaves practice.
But um are you all able to answer my question? You all are having no sympathy for the trauma that Aisha endured.
>> No, there was no trauma. We already said that there was no trauma.
>> So, >> how do you know? How do you know?
>> She grew up.
>> She said she >> Well, how do you know that this was not Stockholm syndrome?
>> I mean, how do you know anything?
>> How do you know your you don't have Stockholm syndrome from somebody?
>> That's a deflection. I can't answer that, but that's a deflection.
>> What's the >> Maybe maybe you got voodoo. You got Stockholm syndrome and now you're suffering from that. How do we know that you're not suffering? You're not you're not traumatized by that?
>> That's a deflection. I can't answer that.
>> Well, the answer is traumatiz.
>> Yeah, let me answer that. Let me let me answer that. Uh I think uh human beings in general experienced trauma throughout our lives. This is undeniable. So, back to Aisha, she was 6 years old and she was sexually assaulted by a 55year-old man.
>> Why does she have any sympathy for it after nine? So that's >> she was 9 years old. She was a little girl.
>> She was assaulted by a man in his 50s.
>> Why don't you all have any sympathy?
>> Yeah. Because it's not uh what you're describing it as. Like >> Yeah.
>> Well, I say the same.
>> Yeah. You you want to you want to pray.
No, no. You want to talk about your ancestors. You you do voodoo and you worship your ancestors. Like what do you think the average age of marriage was uh in America during chatt slavery amongst the chatt slaves? What do you think the average age of marriage was amongst these Africans >> or even let me respond to that? Let me respond to your deflection tactics. Um, even in my own ancestry, if there was ever any instances of >> sexual assault, >> if there were any instances of sexual assault, even in my own ancestry, I condemn it. Now, back to the focal point. Then how are you worshiping your ancestors? How are you worshiping your ancestors if they're doing this?
>> If they're >> When did I say when did when did I say I worship my ancestors? I said I acknowledge my ancestors. A very big difference.
>> What does that mean?
>> But the point is, do you realize >> when is it not trauma? Like when is it not trauma for a for a female to be sexually active or a male to be sexually active? When is it not trauma?
>> When she's an adult. Now when she >> when is she adult when is she an adult?
>> Not at nine years old.
>> When when when >> so just on clear are you saying nine years?
>> When when when is it when is it not traumatic to be sexually active according to you?
>> And you heard my answer. I said when she's an adult, not when she's not.
>> When when is that when is that?
>> When she is multiple years postubescent.
>> Okay. Why why is that not traumatic?
>> Because in the case >> why isn't why isn't like 30 >> why isn't 30 anyone who is sexually active under 30 is being traumatized.
Why? Because I just said >> she's not ready. I'm trying to answer your question. If she is under 30 and she is not ready to have sex, then she will endure trauma. If she's 9 years old, she will >> How do you know if she's ready? How does anyone know if they're ready?
>> They have to make that determination on their own. I actually disagree with you.
I think that TW it should be 25 because the brain is not formed fully until the age of 25. That's what research >> exactly older than nine. So I agree with you. Older than nine.
>> That means uh all uh pre 25year-old marriages happening today in the US. Uh they all have uh you know they're being uh >> traumatized traumatized. And so >> so that means you agreed that they was a victim.
>> They can't meaningfully we're testing.
You agree that Aisha was a victim, right?
>> No, we were pointing out how your position is. Try to try to keep up.
Try to keep up voodoo hoodoo.
>> Try to keep up voodoo hoodoo. We're just pointing out how you are.
That's all.
>> Okay. Bye.
>> Dumbass.
>> Can't even follow like these people can't even follow like a basic point.
So, okay. All right. There's one more person who has this camera on. So, let's just add him. He's been waiting a little bit, but I think it's a Muslim.
Hello.
Yes.
Can you hear us, Gron?
>> Hey, how are you?
>> I'm good.
>> I'm well. So, you guys have no idea who I am, but I'm actually a screenwriter in Hollywood. Been working there for 25 years. So, I've seen all the shaitan from within. And I've been a fan of all of you guys because uh you know, I'm I'm Hanafi. I'm I'm Sufi and you guys have been standing up against a lot of the Wahhabi retardedness and no one has been doing that. So I just want to thank you for that and uh >> to have you on. Welcome to our Hollywood.
>> No, alhamdulillah. I'm the joke is you know now that Ali Dawa is saying it's a CIA. I mean I I work in the industry and every conspiracy theory you have about intelligence agencies creating our uh our narratives is correct. And so I mean it's it's pretty open here, right? And that and that's the funny part of it, right? It's not it's not I'd love to have you on for a podcast possibly. Uh >> yeah, I'll use I'll I'll throw my email right now in the private chat and alhamdulillah. But yeah, know I've I've been you look me up and I'm you know I'm a little bit of a controversial. Some some Muslims don't like the stuff I've done. I've published a couple of novels uh that you know the Muslims who read them liked them, the Muslims didn't were upset. There was one on on Satan Aisha called Mother of the Believers which is a novel told from her point of view and it was meant to counter some of the other novels are being written that were very disrespectful. Right. Uh and so you know I'm trying to do my own thing here uh just like you guys are trying to do in the media and uh you know just say that that there's a this Hollywood is very much uh you know it's it's very much what the Quran says about the world of of glitter. I mean that this is literally Jannam itself right I I think I said that you know Jannam is a kind of place that the people in Janum don't want to leave right they can leave if they want to but they don't want to because they're kind of addicted to it.
>> One calls it a a deception.
>> Yeah. And that that's what Hollywood is.
I mean, there's that song from the Eagles that, you know, you can you can all you can check out anytime. You can never leave. And that's that's the power of Hollywood. It pulls you in and the glamour and the glitter. Uh it literally is a drug, right? And the most of the Muslims that are here uh they or they either become uh quote unquote ex-Muslims. There's a lot of sort of Iranians who say, "Yeah, my grandfather's Muslim. I don't want to talk about it." Right? That that crowd.
And then there's there's unfortunately uh in the last several years there's been a lot of the sort of the uh the sort of make it up as you go along Muslims that show up here in Hollywood who suddenly you know whatever Hollywood's value systems are Islam suddenly supports that right and uh and you know and my problem has been that I've tried to at least keep my personal values in in this industry and that alienates me from the structure of the system and it alienates from the other Muslims that are here because they're like oh what are you even doing here?
What are you even doing here?
>> I got to keep you strong man. You're in a very volatile environment.
>> Yeah. I mean, but but you know, but actually one of the things I noticed is there's no been no Christians on these both you and on Hamza's channel. I the Christians have stopped coming to these things. I think it's because you've actually defeated their arguments. I I don't I don't think they can respond anymore to the PMIC that they were doing for the last two years. Every argument has been defeated.
>> Yeah. They're busy researching new stuff.
>> Yeah. It it makes I mean for me for me and maybe maybe Daniel could address this. For me, this whole Islamic dilemma was solved by Quran Bakr verse 79, I believe, where Allah Allah condemns those who write the scripture with their own hands >> and say it's from Allah. I mean, to me that ayah just takes care of it. It just takes care of it.
>> And and I've had Christians when presented with that, they go dumb. They become dumbfounded because they don't know the ayah exists, right? Because they hear all these other arguments from David Wood and the other people, but the ayah is very straightforward that there are people who changed the scripture and Allah condemns them, wrote it with their own hands. And they look and go back and say, "Oh, that's referring to people changing the Quran in the prophet's time." I'm like, "Really? You got a hadith on that? You got some sid on that? You got" And they don't. I mean, they literally they just make it up because they're trapped by that ayah.
>> Yeah. There are many there there's that ayah. There's also hadith about them changing things. So, yeah, it's it's a really stupid argument, but they just have they're so desperate, right?
They're so desperate for any kind of argument against Islam. And uh yeah, I think this phase of Islamic dilemma, it's going to just it's just a fad. It's already falling out of favor. You don't see many Christians coming on these streams anymore to argue it.
>> And I think the Gaza war was part of it.
Uh I think in the younger generation, I think these these younger Christian kids are are really getting turned off to Christian Zionism. I think they're they're and that's making them get away from a lot of these these uh these apologists who are Christian Zionist, right? And I I think the Gaza I think the Gaza war revealed the apologists amongst the people calling themselves Muslims and the apologists amongst the Christians for the Zionist, right? And and that was it's it's a literal total, you know, like the Greek word apocalypse, apocalypsis. It's an unveiling like everyone's mask off in the Gaza war >> and uh and it was it was necessary. I think I think that's why you guys have you guys endured a lot. I have to actually say, Daniel, you know, I've been watching what you've been going through for several years now, and it's been heartbreaking for me, right?
Because I went through my Wahhabi phase.
I went through it, right? I think a lot of us do. I went through it in college.
Like my my father, God rest his soul, my father was a traditional Hanafi Muslim from Pakistan and he was a supporter of the of the Chista, right? And I thought all that was nonsense. I thought all that was nonsense, right? And then I went to college and you know I got really into this Wahhabi stuff and it and I and sent me to severe depression like it pushed me to like near suicidal depression because this this Wahhabism makes you hate yourself and ultimately you hate Allah because it takes all love out all love and nud is out of your heart right it's all just rules it's all rules and rules and you have an Allah that no matter what you do he's waiting to trip you up he's a waiting to punish you right and it's it's destructive so what you've endured from these people has been really terrifying and I just want to say alhamdulillah that you that you stood up to this because had you not done so had you not done those documentaries these guys were literally unstoppable because they have they have a capture of public of public voice for a while right just because the resources of who backs them right the states that back them and they've never been probably more than 1% of the Muslims right but they capture the public voice and they intimidate you from responding as an orthodox Sunni Muslim They they make you they gaslight into thinking you are somehow an a heretic, right? When 95% of the um on your side, >> right?
>> Yeah. Well, I appreciate your kind words. Um just uh had to stand up to them because they claim to be orthodox and they want to like bully people according to their claimed orthodoxy, but it's just a facade. So, have to expose that. Alhamdulillah. glad that um you found some benefit in it and really appreciate your kind words. So uh we took down your email.
>> I would give me an email if anyone want to contact me inshallah happy to talk about it because I I've I've been I mean I've worked on shows like Sleeper Cell on Showtime and worked actually a lot on the CW worked on the splash show Nikita.
So I've been around in Hollywood forever, right? And I I've seen how the hot dog is made and once you see how it's made it's it's really hard to swallow it, >> right? and uh and and you know I reached that stage in my career where the things that you're talking about where the veils start coming down and the people behind the scenes start approaching and going okay so we need you to make this show that's going to be anti-Muslim propaganda they're actually straightforward about it like that's the goal and we need a Muslim face for that right and that's the moment where the test from Allah comes you're going to take the money you're not Dave Chappelle faced that Dave Chappelle walked away right he walked away from $50 million because he he said literally I was sitting opposite Shaitan and and I've experienced that I've had the meeting like this person is actually Shayan speaking and this is the moment where do I take the risk or or do I walk away and so you know it's it's hard all brothers I've taken up a lot of your time I just want to come in to say you got my email if anyone wants to stay in touch with me and blessings to all of you keep keep doing the dawa >> thank you brother >> thank you >> that was an interesting last call >> yeah good good call yeah let's we can end here and um >> so really appreciate everyone everyone who joined the stream and everyone who is in the comments um and watching. So appreciate your support and we'll continue um next week. Uh I we should be back next week, right? I don't I think I will definitely inshallah.
>> Um but yeah, so um and is this a stream that we're going to leave up or or what are we going to leave them up now from now in?
Okay, we'll we'll leave it up inshallah and uh we'll see everyone on the next stream.
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