The REAL Meaning of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings? Pageau & Dyer

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]I think that one of the things that for sure happened in the Middle Ages and you see that definitely with the Scandinavian stories is the desire to kind of integrate these uh these stories within a kind of universal history vision right that is to see them as as as leading to the revelation of Christ and ultimately being uh downstream you know you know from the revelation of Christ even though it was in the in the past let's say uh and so you can see that in the Scandinavian epics for example they they make the the Scandinavian characters, descendants from Trojan refugees. And you see they're not actually gods in the text.

[00:00:35]Like we've now say that, but in the actual text there are these heroes that come from Troy and came to Scandinavia to set up the the civilization there.

[00:00:42]Just like Brutus came from Troy to set up the, you know, in Jeffrey Monmouth to set up the the English the to set up uh uh England. Well, not England, but Britain, let's say. And so and so I think that that's right in some ways.

[00:00:55]There is and we do that like our whole series of podcasts with Deacon Sarapim on the symbolic world is we what we call the universal history which is to show how the medievals saw we're trying to integrate the pagan past and kind of prune it and make it make it uh revelatory of Christ uh you know how they saw themselves like I said they they would read the anid and the different homeic epics and kind of integrate them and and so that's definitely in some ways what we're trying to do now the difference with what we're trying to do is we're doing it specific specifically in the Christian cosmology. that is we're using the images from the Bible, you know, the the the the giants, the Canaanites, the the the the Nephilim, the Leviathan, all of these kind of images that are there, the garments of skin, the mark of Cain, like all of these these kind these these images that we see in in the Bible, and then we're pulling them together in a kind of epic that is that is happening in the in the like, you know, late fourth or early fifth century uh in the Eastern Eastern Empire. So, so that's the difference that I'm seeing. It's it's more like saying can we do what Tolken did and what CS Lewis did but actually do it in a way that is in the biblical worldview and not in outside of it you know so that's what that's definitely what interests me but in terms of Bayway I want to say one thing uh for sure that uh we did a whole class on Baywolf Deacon Sarapim and I that people can see on the symbolic world uh and Deacon Sarapim demonstrates very very strongly how much it's a Christian text and he does it by showing how the author actually uh is seems to be referring to Botheus in his text constantly and how he's referring obviously to all these traditions about Cain and about you know the these monsters as being descendants of Cain and that is a it's actually a very very deep strain. It's not like it's not a superficial transformation.

[00:02:47]>> Yeah, I appreciate that. That's really I mean and then and that to to my professor's credit I mean he he was really good at that um you know bringing out a lot of those themes and elements and uh you know I think that's a really cool thing. I I appreciate what you're doing. Now, if people want to get access to these um do they go to symbolic world or where do they where do we buy these?

[00:03:06]>> Yeah, that's the best place to go. You can still you can get them on Amazon obviously, but you know, we prefer like you know, we prefer people to come on our website and get them from there. We usually also have like bundles and different and different special that we're offering for people who want to get them directly from us.

[00:03:21]Um, I do want to mention before we get to other topics and then and your conference that's upcoming, uh, I do have the link, by the way, guys, to Symbolic World in the show description.

[00:03:29]So, if you want to get access to these, um, do you do signed copies or anything like that, uh, from the site or anything?

[00:03:36]>> Yeah, we do have some, what, we're we we tried to I mean, we ran out of a lot of the signed copies for sure. We're do also doing events like every time I do an event, usually we'll try to have a book table and then I'll do a I'll do like a book signing. So, yeah. So, the conference is part of that for sure. the conference, we're going to do like a big book signing. People want to have their books signed, we'll be able to bring them or buy them there and and have them signed.

[00:03:55]>> So, that is uh linked below, you guys.

[00:03:57]Um, and I would say these are really neat. Jamie was really impressed. I've not read it yet, so I'm just going from what Jamie said.

[00:04:03]>> I'm actually really curious if you do read it. I would love to hear what you think, especially about the God's Dog stuff because it's more the God's Dog stuff is more kind of male oriented and more, you know, it's for it's not it's still aimed at, you know, like teenage teenage years, but I think as adults, we can still kind of appreciate it. If you know the Bible, well, I'm curious to see you'll be surprised at some of the like some of because there's like a whole biblical story that is happening in the background that we see snippets of like how the garments of skin get transmitted and there's all this stuff going on and there's like St. Michael Sword and all of these these features and so I would actually I would actually be I would love to hear what you think if you ever have the chance to read it.

[00:04:40]>> Yeah. No, I I mean I have the mind mentality and maturity of a teenager. So I'm I'm sure I'll vibe with it very well. So uh >> do you read a lot of fiction? I don't even know. Do you read fiction?

[00:04:50]>> No, we do. In fact, uh the last several years we've branched out into doing a lot of literary analysis on my channel.

[00:04:56]>> Nice.

[00:04:56]>> Probably done. We've probably done >> 20 or 30 um lit pieces. In fact, my undergraduate degree, well, my undergraduate degree is philosophy and history, and then my almost grad degree is lit. So, I'm a I'm a huge lit guy.

[00:05:12]Uh, but the the problem with lit on YouTube is that if you start talking about literature, if I'm getting I was getting for at one point, >> yeah, I was getting like 3,000 on a live stream at one point. We had worked it all the way up to 3,000. Then I started doing lit streams, >> 1,000. So, if you want to cut your audience uh it by twothirds, I recommend doing a lot of lit streams. But I love it. I love it. So, we just recent the last uh that we did, by the way, speaking of Tolken, was The Hobbit. And we're going to do we're going to do the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[00:05:44]>> I haven't read The Hobbit until recently rereading it probably since maybe high school. So, it was nice to go back. And one thing I noticed, uh, I want to get your take on this because of course everybody has Tolken theories and their own sort of Tolken takes uh, Tolken hot takes, right? Um, I noticed that the Arkan stone, I think, was a reference, this is my theory, to Christ as the divine stone cut without hands. and he's in the the midst of in the presence of the dwarves who I think Tolken said explicitly do represent the Jews and they don't recognize him and and in fact uh at the end you know at the end Gandalf rolls out a coffin and there's a coffin with the ark and stone in it and then eventually they come to realize that he is their precious treasure. So, I have a theory like you said about Tolken kind of referencing the Old Testament and I think he did that quite a bit. In fact, he translated the uh book of uh I want to say the book of Jonah uh for the Jerusalem Bible which was one of the Vatican publications many years ago. So, I think he was very familiar with the Old Testament and the Deuteronical text. I think the only fonts come from elements of Mcabes. But um do you have any theories on uh Tolken's uh what he's putting into the novels or or what what's going on?

[00:07:08]>> My I I try to take toolken on his word.

[00:07:11]Right. So Tolkien said that he he didn't like symbolism, but but he meant by symbolism >> this important point.

[00:07:19]>> Yeah. What he meant by symbolism was a one-on-one reference and actually probably was a bit of a swipe at at CS Lewis. You know, it's like when you read when you read uh the Narnia books. Yeah.

[00:07:29]Alan's Jesus. Like we we just know that Alan's Jesus. And I think Tolkien he said that his stories are applicable and and that actually it's funny because I think that's actually what symbolism is is that he's actually he's actually telling a story with the right pattern, right? It's like he's bringing these elements together in the right in a kind of universal true pattern and then what you can see is that kind of reflection.

[00:07:50]You see it then uh you could refract in the world and you can apply to different things. And so I do think that for example the you know the way that the dwarves you know what they are in the the in the culture of the Lord of the Rings is probably like you said akin to some aspects of how the Jews participated in western western civilization. I don't know to what extent it was like a direct one-on-one, but there are these like there are these uh you could say these uh these o these smells because he's actually you could say he's actually applying a true pattern to a story, right? A pattern that reflects itself. And so in the medieval world, we had for example, you know, hier a natural hierarchy in the world. We had those that those that pray, those that fight, those that work.

[00:08:35]And there was a kind of idea of an onlogical structure of the world. Then you could say well it's funny because that onlogical structure kind of looks like the Vic cast system you know because they had the Brahman thehatria you know and and so you say but is it does it mean that one copied the other it's like no maybe both of them are reflecting some aspect of a kind of normal pattern where we understand that we have to be aligned spiritually first that gives legitimacy to political power and without those two then you can't have trade you can't have work none of it works and so there's like a kind of a natural hierarchy and I think that that's the kind of thing that Token put in his in his in in his in his world and and then it will ref reflect in the way that you say which is that you know there there will be images that we can apply to uh to our uh let's say to to the history of the west.

[00:09:23]>> Yeah, it's funny you said that because uh of course you know people are always referring to they'll say oh did you read the introductory essay where he says he doesn't like symbolism. Yeah, I'm familiar with that. But if you read what he says, he says, "People have said to me, are you writing about World War II and Hitler and this kind of stuff?" And he says, "No, because if that was the case, there would have been very different accounts of what happened with, you know, the villains and with >> with the the wicked figures." And he says uh when he says he doesn't like allegory or quote symbolism, he says if you mean by this something that is not historical or against history or not real, he says that abstracted sense of symbolism and I'm thinking here in the sense of like origin, right? Origin usually tried to utilize symbology as a way to be ahistorical or to negate to negate the reality.

[00:10:14]>> And if you listen to uh I think her name is what's is it Rachel Brown? She has a whole bunch of uh Tolken lectures. She's a professor I think at Chicago University.

[00:10:22]>> She points out that um that Tolken saw ironically saw his his novels as historical fiction.

[00:10:31]>> So it's not that they don't contain symbolism. In my view, my understanding is that he doesn't like symbolism that's pitted against history or not quote real. And when I was reading that, I was like this is sounds like the way kind of pou talks about symbology and symbolism.

[00:10:45]So, uh, it was it was >> Yeah, for sure.

[00:10:47]>> Um, so I I appreciate what you're doing there and I appreciate your analysis. By the way, we got over 1500. We got 1,600 in the chat. Welcome everybody. If you would hit like and share, you can also support the streams uh through um Streamlabs or through YouTube super chats. And of course, be sure and subscribe to Jonathan Pouro. Uh he will be linked uh his channel will be linked in a moment in this the show description. But uh do you any last words on what you think of Tolken and Lord of the Rings or anything like that?

[00:11:13]I don't want to cut you off. if you had more to say and then we we're going to get into the conference.

[00:11:18]>> No, I do I do like this. I do think that some of the analogies that you brought up are interesting, right? In the sense of the ark and stone as being this, like you said, something that a kind of truth or heart that they don't recognize and then that is presented to them, you know, and I don't I didn't remember this idea that that he rolls it out in coffin, which is very fascinating as this this kind of resurrection motif.

[00:11:40]So, that's a super interesting. I didn't remember that either because in in the movie version, Peter Jackson's version, like they just sort of stand there with, you know, the elf king and then and then they just sort of roll open it up and have it in a cloak or in their pocket or something. But in reality, it's Gandalf is actually disguised as an old crotchety man and he rolls it out in a coffin and you know uh uh Thoren is sitting up there on the, you know, on the wall and he's looking down all arrogant and then when he when they open the coffin and he sees it as Gandalf, he's like, you know, aruck. But that would have been a much more powerful, I think, image had they put that in the film. But Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on and you're welcome anytime.

[00:12:21]>> Thanks for having me on. It was good to see you.

[00:12:23]>> Absolutely. Thank you. All right. Bye everyone.

[00:12:38]God has a body.

[00:12:41]It's a very tone body.

[00:12:45]>> He looks good. He looks good.