You Don't Understand Dictionaries. And Grammar Nazis are the Most Wrongest of All...

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]Today we're going to talk about the dictionary.

[00:00:02]>> Actually, I did I did like my little rant today to be honest.

[00:00:06]>> Um, so the dictionary, this doesn't sound like it's going to be interesting, but I promise it is. And uh, so >> dude, you've promised this before and I've sat through like an hour of you talking about baseball or something. I'm like, dude, dude.

[00:00:21]>> Yeah. So, it's not about baseball. We're not We wouldn't do that to you cuz no one would No one would listen.

[00:00:26]>> You wouldn't do that to me, dude. You do it to me like every third. do it to you, not the listeners.

[00:00:31]>> Well, maybe the listeners like baseball.

[00:00:33]>> Yeah. Well, like you know, probably like 10 of them. Um, so, so do first we're going to start with ever wondered if words get removed from the dictionary like once they're there, are they there to say? And so we're going to start out uh talking about that and we're going to start out we're going to talk about some other interesting facets of language and what is the what is a dictionary? because there's a there's kind of a common u mistake a lot of people make when that we'll get into when when looking at like thinking about what the dictionary is and the the linguist behind them definitely don't uh don't make that the same mistake. So full disclosure >> dude you you you promised this would be interesting.

[00:01:10]>> It is interesting because >> I already phased out once. This is going to be interesting because half this episode is probably just going to be us ranting about things and that's always entertaining because full disclosure dude I did I did a business blaze the other day which is another channel that I do and I was like I was I was editing and I'm like a this isn't very good. I'm just upset about something for like 30 minutes and then people are like more rants and I'm like okay more rents. No, because this one, this whole episode, the whole point really behind it, uh, besides to teach something interesting, uh, is just to vent because so when you've written over six million words that have been read or listened to by many many dozens of millions of people, you get you get, you know, you make the slightest little thing and people people jump all over it. So, you have a certain So, we have grammar Nazis. And when I say that, some linguists are like people who really like language are like, well, I'm a grammar Nazi. Why are you insulting me? I'm I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the Nazis >> who selfidentify as Nazis.

[00:02:09]>> Yeah, that's exactly the the emphasis on Nazis, not the playful Nazi, but like the actual Nazis. These are the grammar Nazis of the internet who who live to only, you know, destroy and, you know, be mean. So, and note here, the pro word nerds, they do not do this. If you make a typo in a thing, the pro word nerds are, hey, got a little typo there. or if you use some sort of like uh you know grammar structure that's you know abnormal but if you do it that you know if you do it in like a way that's not clear the the pro word nerds will be like hey maybe reword it like this and they're real polite and everything or they might be like yeah that was really good clever grammar Nazis never do that if anything's even slightly off for instance the word anyways I use anyways all the time do you would you say anyways no and when it comes up in a script often I'm like it feels weird say I think sometimes I'll say it depending on my vibe But like often I'll be like cuz you also use another one I find weird.

[00:03:03]Um >> funny funny funnily enough >> funnily enough.

[00:03:09]>> Yeah. Which I find I I it's it makes sense as well, but I always say funny enough >> because it's how I've always said it. So I'll be like funny enough.

[00:03:17]>> Yeah.

[00:03:17]>> Um >> yeah.

[00:03:18]>> Yeah. I could go back and forth, but yeah. Anyways, anyways is one I use a lot and every time >> you do say it a lot. And every time that's not a word and then they'll go off usually on like a paragraph on how I should kill myself or something.

[00:03:31]>> Every time is not a word.

[00:03:33]>> No, any anyways. Every time I use anyways, they'll be like, you know, I should clearly kill myself for using that word. And so, yeah, this but turns out anyways has been around.

[00:03:43]>> Did you just say you should clearly kill yourself for using that word? This No, these these I said emphasis on the Nazi part of the G. These are the things they say. So, anyways, has been around since the 13th. said, "You should kill yourself for using the word." Anyways, >> yes, there's any My God, dude.

[00:03:58]>> And all these >> I thought the pronunciation people were bad. It'd be like, uh, you said it, Da Vinci. It's Da Vinci. Kill yourself. No one's ever said that to me. Normally, they're people are dicks. But they're not telling me to kill myself.

[00:04:11]>> I know. But yeah, anyways, has been around since the 13th century for the record, which is before even like the the standard English we have today. But um yeah, so this is this is this whole we're going to talk about the dictionary and what what makes a word a word, you know, in the end and uh and so let's dive in. Let's just go right into it, shall we? So second edition of the Oxford.

[00:04:31]>> Let's dive in. Uh 44 minutes into the podcast.

[00:04:36]>> So on that second edition, they include basically when a word goes in to that dictionary. It's like the hotel California of linguistics where it never will ever come out uh into that. And just an aside here, I know I put this somewhere else but later. But just the second edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, that's one I use a lot just because I bought like a off eBay one of those old CDs, you know, CD collection things and it, you know, it's like $5 uh instead of having to pay the subscription for the So the second >> the second edition has been around for a long time. And so the third edition they which they've been working on for decades now to come out and it's still going and probably a couple more decades to finish the third edition. This is to upgrade from this finish the second edition. I just think that's astounding like the amount of work that's so that goes >> dude.

[00:05:29]Yeah. I mean I look at my university textbooks it's like you know oh we're on the 37th edition already of a book that was published like four years ago.

[00:05:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. They update like every year.

[00:05:39]>> Yeah. No. And so Yeah. But in any event, so word goes in, it doesn't come out.

[00:05:44]However, there are of course concise editions. People have probably like the the edition that you would have on your desk, like the one book, those are concise editions, and those do exclude a lot of words. But the >> the dictionaries on their desks, dude, it's like 2020. It's not really a thing.

[00:05:57]No, I kind of want the second edition, though, like the the text version because it's like 22 volumes, and it'd be kind of cool to put in the background, you know. Um, and I would actually use it, too. It'd be kind of cool to flip, you know, flip through instead of having to look it up.

[00:06:08]>> Oh, come on. You You'd use it for a day and then you'd be like, "Yeah, that's >> I have no I have the Barnhart's um edmology dictionary. I use that thing all the time. I whip that thing out constantly for articles."

[00:06:20]>> Is not a digital version of this like in the front cover they say, "Hey, download the digital companion."

[00:06:24]>> I've never really looked. I like it. Uh but yeah.

[00:06:27]>> Wow.

[00:06:28]>> Um and anyways, >> that's exceedingly backwards. So how does how does how does a word become obsolete to get out of these these uh these sort of things the concise additions and whatnot in the first place and and how does a word get there in the first place as well. So that's what we're going to talk about now. And so a very common thing you'll hear people say is hey like for instance anyways which by the way is in most dictionaries um it they'll say hey it's not in the dictionary so it's not a word but this sentiment is not shared by professional word nerds at all in the slightest and you don't have to look very hard to to find examples. So as co-founder of the phenomenal if you've ever seen this uh word reference site Wordnick it's it's it's awesome. Uh, so Ann and one-time chief e editor of the American dictionaries of Oxford University Press, including editing the second edition of the New Oxford American Dictionary. She has quite the resume. Aaron McKeen, she states, >> "Oh my god, you can tell that she does a dictionary, doesn't she? Malropisms."

[00:07:23]>> Yep.

[00:07:23]>> Maybe. Um, no idea what that is. A word from their birth. All you have to do to all you have to decide is whether the word in question is the right one for the job.

[00:07:36]Dictionaries don't measure realness.

[00:07:38]They serve as rough proxies for the extent of a word's use.

[00:07:42]>> And so Aaron McKeen, by the way, as a little aside, besides being a very distinguished linguist, she's also the creator of the McKeen's law, which states, >> "Any correction of the speech or writing of others will contain at least one grammatical, spelling, or typographical error."

[00:07:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. And grammar Nazis, the actual Nazi ones, are the worst at this too. And whenever you point that out that they they don't respond nicely to that either, but so they're just angry, I think.

[00:08:08]>> Well, you'll point it out and then because of McKeen's law, you make another error and then you just end up in a cycle and then you >> infinite cycle. But so going back to the um a word being in the dictionary, what it actually implies. So, uh, further, as noted in the frequently asked questions of Miriam Webster's website, most general English dictionaries are designed to include only those words that meet certain criteria of usage across wide areas and over extended periods of time. As a result, they may emit words that are still in the process of becoming established, those that are too highly specialized, or those that are so informal that they are rarely documented in professionally edited writing. The words left out are as real as those that gain entry. The former simply haven't met the criteria for dictionary entry, at least not yet.

[00:08:51]Newer ones may ultimately gain admission to the dictionaries pages if they gain sufficient use. So essentially, we could just make up a word right now because as noted, all words uh so like there's you haven't seen it, but in Marvel um Infinity War at one point Drax says to Thor, he's like, "That's a madeup word."

[00:09:07]And Thor's like, "All words are made up." It's like yes, that is true.

[00:09:13]>> Yes. Um, but so yeah, going further, I really >> Oh my god, now I must see that movie with that line.

[00:09:18]>> Uh, so, uh, Stanford professor Arnold Zwiki, I just really liked his rant on this subject, so I'm going to make you read it because it's really good. Um, we start with the admonition that people of taste and refinement should not use X.

[00:09:32]Then this is exaggerated, elevated to the admonition that people in general should not use X. What should govern the behavior of the best of us? Those are genuine sneer quotes. Oh, cuz best is in quotes. Yeah, this is better written down. In set of circumstances should govern the behavior of all of us all the time in all context for all purposes.

[00:09:51]What a remarkable lack of nuance. What a divorcement from the complex textures of social life. I love these word guys.

[00:09:59]They're so into words.

[00:10:00]>> They they write really well. Funny enough.

[00:10:03]>> Yeah.

[00:10:05]As if that weren't enough, it ratchets up hysterically one more notch to the bold assertion that X simply isn't available for use. It's just not part of the social repertoire, my dear. It just isn't done.

[00:10:21]>> I like reading this. This is great. But if it is tr but if it truly isn't done, then there's no need for the admonitions. Don't tell me there's no such word. parade your idiosyncratic prejudices if you wish and if your mind is open enough we may be able to talk about the basis of your prejudices and mine but don't lie to me about the state of the language >> so >> I feel this guy I don't know he's at Stanford I guess so he's American but this feels very British British but >> like maybe it's just cuz I read it but >> yeah Stanford linguist so you know he's probably up near the top tier of linguist >> yeah just my dear, it just isn't done.

[00:11:02]Sounds like something Sherlock Holmes would say.

[00:11:04]>> I did. There's a couple others if people want to look at some good rants. So, there's Mark Lieberman's Snoot BL article and then Steven Fry's language video. Uh, well, I guess it's he wrote it, but then someone made it into a video, so you can go see it on YouTube.

[00:11:18]That the language one is the one I point most people to. Uh, all the grammar Nazis, whatever. It's like my standard reply. Go look at this because it is.

[00:11:26]Yeah, it It's so it's it's the contrast between like the internet grammar Nazi like the true Nazi one not just the people who like language and stuff uh but between the linguist you can really see the difference and one one of them loves language the other basically no this is the way I learned when I was seven so this is the way it's always going to be um so yeah um but so going back to this uh slightly philosophical point of view so in the 2011 paper published in science quantitive analysis of culture using millions millions of digitized books. So this in this study they analyzed the language used in 5,195,769 books which is about 4% of all books ever published.

[00:12:08]>> Dude, a lot of that's a lot of books.

[00:12:09]It's like 100 million books.

[00:12:11]>> And what they found they found some quite interesting things about this speaking of going again this is in the context of oh if it's not in the dictionary it's not a it's not a word.

[00:12:20]And so that this is what they were looking at. So how how often are the words that we use that we actually use in books and you know we talk how often is are they in the dictionary and so they even when excluding proper nouns like names and stuff uh to quote the study a large fraction of the words in our lexicon 63% were in the lowest frequency bin as a result we estimated that 52% of the English lexicon the majority of the words used in English books consist of lexical dark matter undocumented in standard references fascinating especially when you have like the OED who and you know some of those like that that document stuff so well and there's so many words being left out which we're going to um later I'll mention the specific numbers that I can't remember off the top of my head but so on a similar note uh with regards to not just what constitutes a word but proper usage the OED also distances themselves from carrying that banner they state quite frankly on their website uh the Oxford English dictionary is not an arbiter of proper usage despite its widespread reputation. To the contrary, the dictionary is intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, its content should be viewed as an objective reflection of English language usage, not a subjective collection of usage, dos and don'ts. The linguists have the kind of language evolves. It evolves constantly, and that's kind of what they love studying.

[00:13:44]And so, they're all quite open to that usually. Um, and then you know it's the rest of us that sometimes aren't. And also for reference here, the OED, they have 600,000 entries in their in their complete um, uh, documentation of the English language. But, uh, it turns out there's a lot more than that and so how much more? So, we kind of referenced a little bit. So, from that study, a lot of people kind of go along with that.

[00:14:09]They say, "Oh, there's about twice as many words in English language that then is actually documented." But it turns out it depends on how you define a word actually because so we have like Webster's third new international dictionary has 12 distinct words that are spelled post you know so there it really depends on where where is it where is it a different word than the one before and so I'm looking at like word nick for instance which tries to document every word doesn't matter if it's appeared in the English language it has a distinct definition it's a word >> wait when it says like 12 distinct words spelled post.

[00:14:44]>> So they mean something different, >> but then you'd look it up and it would be post and then it would be like, you know, 1 2 3 4 5.

[00:14:51]>> So exactly. So do you count that as one word because it's one but has different definitions or do you count each one as a each definition as distinct word despite it being the same? I think it's the same word in my opinion, but then it's complicated because if you have a word like uh wind, you know, as in to, you know, blow, but then also wind to wind something up. They're spelled the same way, but they're pronounced differently. So, >> yeah. So, that would be I think yeah, most people would probably count that as two.

[00:15:22]>> But then what if the definition is completely different? Would you count that as two?

[00:15:26]>> I wouldn't if it's said and spelled the same way.

[00:15:30]>> Exactly. So there's this controversy of what actually does and when you look at like word nick which tries to just do all words you know to try to capture them and it's a distinct entity um if has like the different definition they actually have 7 million unique entries already for English which again compared to that 600,000 and then if you think that's a lot go to Miriam Webster's database so they have a database of potential words that they might want to include things that their editors and that >> 70 million sorry I know I'm reading your notes here but that's insane how many did it have 600,000 in the OED.

[00:16:01]>> Yeah. And then and again when you go back to those books which cover like 4% of all books written in English, they they they it's about half are in the OED. So these are definitely obscure things and and obviously clearly Miriam Webster and OED and stuff don't don't think they're you know good enough to put in. So they might be like things like where I I have made up words on today I found out before and just and no one has ever noticed. Um which is funny to me because the grammar Nazis do notice some other stuff but like you know I just made that word up. That's not even a word. But you know, I I couldn't think of like it was in cases where I couldn't think of the word I wanted, but like I'd thought of a word that kind of like you know what it means just by the context and by the way it sounds.

[00:16:40]>> I feel I've come across some of these.

[00:16:42]Yeah.

[00:16:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um and so these these would get entered here, but no one else used them like ever. Like it's used in that one article one time. Uh and so they it would never, you know, appear in the dictionary obviously unless unless it caught on. Um um so that um so so from there that we've sort of laid to rest the popular notion that dictionaries are the bastions of what counts as a word or not which is something uh that people say a lot.

[00:17:08]>> I'm going to try that next time I play Scrabble.

[00:17:10]>> Just like throw down like a seven triple word score just made up of X's and Y's and be like it's a word. It's definitely a word. is most people or at least in the old days I don't know I haven't played Scrabble in forever so maybe people don't do that anymore but in the old days people you play Scrabble and they get out the dictionary right like but it's the concise dictionary that they're getting out and they don't know they're not getting out the real they don't have the 22 volume set so and they're like oh it's not in the dictionary so we can't it doesn't count but like what dictionary you going to use there um also I might be wrong on this but I think if you challenge challenge someone in Scrabble, you also lose your turn, which is something we never played when I was a kid.

[00:17:55]>> If you're wrong, yeah, this is that's one of the rules a lot of people don't follow in Scrabble is if you challenge and then it was a word, then you lose your turn. Um, and so you don't want to just challenge willy-nilly, >> which makes the game a makes it a really different game cuz then it's just like, yeah, how hard can you bluff? Especially for you, like I mean, I'm I'm sure if you're playing like British people, they, you know, they don't even notice your accent. But if you were playing an American, you sound like you got that refined. You could be like, "That's a word like what you >> really obviously >> we use that word all the time in Britain." So, >> well, you haven't you haven't read the works of so and so.

[00:18:31]>> Yeah, you could dominate against Americans in Scrabble basically. Um, >> yeah, terrible vocabulary, excellent at bluffing. So, how do they actually decide what words go in there? And so, in two words, sustained usage, but also the OED actually has a lot more words on their generative method, which is as follows. The OED requires several independent examples of the word being used also and and also evidence that the word has been used in use for a reasonable amount of time. The exact time span and number of examples may vary. For instance, one word may be included on the evidence of only a few examples spread out over a long period of time, while another may gather momentum very quickly, resulting in a wide range of evidence in a shorter space of time. We also look for the word to reach an a level of general currency where it is unself-consciously used with the expectation of being understood.

[00:19:21]That is, we look for examples of uses of a word that are not immediately followed by an explanation of its meaning for the benefit of the reader. We have a large range of words under constant review and as items are assessed for inclusion in the dictionary. Words which have not yet accumulated enough evidence are kept on file so that we can refer back to them if further evidence comes to light.

[00:19:42]>> Yeah. And so how who actually does all this work? It turns out it's actually mostly a lot of volunteers because they don't have the OED has actually never turned a profit like which is kind of interesting. Um despite if you want to go buy their >> do more editions you know and just sell sell sell a new one every year. But if you want to buy their physical their physical 22 volume set, uh it costs like $1,100. Um Whoa. Yeah. But even then, they've never made a a profit according to I don't know there I had it in here somewhere one of their editors or something. Um, but yeah, they do have a subscription though where you can Google it.

[00:20:15]>> Sorry, I Google this like to see how much like I'm like, "Okay, let's see how much this costs like in Britain or wherever, you know, would come up on my shopping." And the first thing that comes up is I I Google full OED set the OED and printed on CD ROM. I'm like, really? That's the first entry? You haven't updated that? That's exactly why I bought like the $5 like old someone's copy on eBay of the second edition. The downside is they do have the um third edition that's obviously not anywhere close to being complete, but they do update, you know, their online one with the stuff that they have finished part of it. So, I don't have access to that.

[00:20:48]But see, that's actually a bad thing for me because in this way with the second edition, >> where where did you get I I'm looking around.

[00:20:56]>> I don't have a CD. I don't have a I don't have a drive that can do that. I have like a an Xbox at home that takes discs, I think, but I'm not sure. Yeah, >> but I don't think I could copy a CD off it.

[00:21:10]>> I mean, it was like 10 years ago and then I put it I just ripped it. I ri I ripped it and so now I have it in digital form, which is probably not technically what you're supposed to do, but you know, I paid my $5 for that. Um, so that's >> Yeah, that's like ripping a movie to your computer off a DVD. That's >> Yeah, if that's not legal, the law is dumb.

[00:21:31]>> It is dumb. It's not legal in the slightest. Um, >> that's not legal. At least not in the US.

[00:21:37]>> No [ __ ] If you buy a DVD and you have it on your computer for personal use and you don't share it with anyone.

[00:21:45]Yeah, I may or may not have heard of someone who rips all their movies and puts them on his central server at his office and that has to require special software uh to do and the software has to be updated to get around all the you know stuff and that software for a while went out of went out like it couldn't be sold in the US and so and then they ended up moving offshore like their headquarters or whatever and so that they could continue uh doing it but yeah you buy the because who wants to keep the physical copy You know, you could just go to the store, you buy it. I I bought it, you know, like it's not shared with anyone.

[00:22:20]>> Like, so you go to your shelf of Blu-rays and take out the disc and put it in your What is going on? I don't want to get up. I want to just click on my Plex, you know, and uh and click around. Yeah, exactly. But yes, no, you're not supposed to do that. Um, I mean nowadays it's a little easier because you can just like buy from Amazon and like in the old days it was like and I mean Amazon's not going anywhere but um in the old days there was that controversy because at the time uh like in the early 2000s there was always oh you would buy the digital but then like 3 months later either that company would go out of business or like uh they would just change the rules so now you can't you can't download that anymore and but now that's sort of stream that's fixed. Someone who definitely isn't me would say that if id bought a DVD or a Blu-ray back in the day and I didn't have a DVD player or a way to play it, I would have very little issue with pirating the [ __ ] out of that, >> you know.

[00:23:15]>> Yeah. I I mean, not me, but someone who, you know, thinks a lot like me, but is definitely not me.

[00:23:22]>> Yeah.

[00:23:23]>> Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. You got to listen to your customers. just give them what they want in the way they want it and they will pay. But but take it away.

[00:23:30]Don't give it to them in the way they want and they they won't pay. They'll just But >> and it's like again someone who definitely isn't like me. Tell you what, you know, back in the day Adobe, if you if you make it impossible for me to update my Photoshop because your website of like 1999 or whatever is an absolute, >> you know, >> not me, not my experience. I'd have no issue pirating your stuff like 99% of the rest of the world.

[00:24:01]>> Yeah. Because until and then they got really smart and they said, "Hey, why don't we just offer a subscription service and then we make a lot more money because people pay forever and then everyone I do it. I I buy the subscription and and it's it's nice. But before I I someone also not me used to do the exact same thing."

[00:24:19]>> Um so >> it was ridiculous. Um, >> yeah.

[00:24:23]>> Although I'm still upset because you guys pay $50 a month for >> a Creative Cloud. I pay like 50 a month.

[00:24:31]It's like 20% more.

[00:24:34]>> And if you're in the UK, you pay 50 a month.

[00:24:37]>> Well, see, I actually got even better because I got the student edition because at one point I was a student and they just never follow that up. So, if you just never cancel, >> you always get that discount which is about half half even then. But yeah. Um, anyways, >> we did a video, didn't we? Did we do a video or was it a business blaze about, you know, fake universities? And I'm like, how do I start my own university?

[00:24:59]Not so I can be like a degree mill, but just so I can get like the discount software like, yeah, simonsuniversity.ac.uk or uh what's your.edu.

[00:25:10]Yeah. Yeah. You get so much free stuff.

[00:25:12]Um, but yeah, uh, going back to what were we talking? Oh, the second edition, which I have the second edition. It's actually kind of a good thing that I have the second edition, not the third or the part that's complete because if you notice, sometimes we'll have a thing and I'll be like, "The OED says this, but I actually found something sooner."

[00:25:30]And I'm sure they fixed it in the third edition, you know, but then I get to sound smarter um because I get to correct the edition that's way old. But yeah, so anyways, where were we talking about the Oh, mostly volunteers who do this sort of research in their reading program, which um Oh, I'm sorry. I I I was just thinking about Adobe still because I was, you know, I ranted and it got in my mind. It wasn't about the update to the software. It was about the key. Do you remember how you used to have to subscribe and get keys?

[00:26:06]Yeah. Like, so you'd get like I don't know like Adobe Photoshop, whatever it was before it got I I think there was versions before CS or maybe it was early CS. And so you'd buy you'd buy it and then you'd have a like a like a scratch card where you'd scratch it off the the CD key, right?

[00:26:24]>> Do you know what I'm talking hitch up.

[00:26:26]So, you hitch up your covered wagon, you go to the mailbox, you grab your key, you you get your thing out, >> scratch it like it was like um >> I don't know, it was like a 16-digit alpha numeric code that you'd plug in and then it would be like, "Oh, we verified your software."

[00:26:42]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:43]>> You know what I mean? And this stopped working >> and it was trying to get in touch with Adobe to be like, "Hey, I paid for your stuff. Can you send me one?" And again, this wasn't me. and then being like, "All right, well, if you're not going to send me one, this person I might know is just going to download one of those key generators." And it took like 4 seconds.

[00:27:01]Problem solved.

[00:27:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:27:04]>> Sorry. Uh continue. My rant is over.

[00:27:08]>> You might be wondering from from all this might be wondering from all this, has there ever been a case where the dictionary has misspelled an entry name because everyone uses it, right? And it turns out we looked really hard, not just me. I think Carl and and possibly Melissa looked really hard to find one instance, just one instance where a major English dictionary has misspelled a word in their thing and we couldn't find one. Not not a record of a single one.

[00:27:36]>> Well, because then it becomes the spelling, doesn't it? Because you'd look it up in the dictionary and be like, well, I guess they're right.

[00:27:42]>> Yeah. So they have they have like obviously a meticulous process with so many people look over these things over span of years and years sometimes even decades for a word to percolate up but they've have record of it from right when someone first you know notice that someone said it. Uh and so they it's so many people look over it that by the time it gets to the actual dictionary it's already it's good. It's it's perfect is they're not going to make mistake with that. But they have made other mistakes and this the famous one is door. The word door which is not a word I mean it's It's a word they define. It's in the dictionary and it's got a definition or it was in the dictionary. Um, so door it turns out this was sort of a funny mistake that it was supposed to be. So they used to do these cards like the 3x5 cards. This was way back in the day >> that they would send and you would put like different notes and stuff. And so in one of them in the 1934 version of Webster's New International Dictionary, they did uh so someone put D, capital D or lowercase D, right? And so through a series of of sort of progressive errors over the time at one point just to start someone underlined the whole thing which implied that the whole thing should be bolded. And so they did that and then the typist later started to think it must be like a word and it was really just supposed to be D or D as an abbreviation for density or or shortened for density in chemistry and physics but instead dor eventually came to mean density in physics or chemistry in the dictionary. So, that was one uh mistake that wasn't caught for quite some time after I think uh several years. Someone finally finally got the door. It's not actually a word. Um and then and then just like the other errors.

[00:29:25]It's amazing how how few errors they have in these things because you have to go back to 1911 >> and they and this wasn't a in this one was the OED. This wasn't like a misspelling or anything or incorrect word. They simply in the definition implied that it was atmospheric pressure that makes siphoning work in the definition for siphon. And that that actually stuck around for almost a century before one doctor >> Yeah. Yeah. One doctor Steven Hughes was like, "Hey, it's actually gravity." And so >> siphoning is where you take something from upstairs and like you do the like when you siphon petrol out of a car.

[00:30:00]There's no extra pressure.

[00:30:02]>> Yeah. Yeah, you just have to have the lower end lower than the top and so it just sort of like pulls it sucks it out once this flow and it is just the gravity doing the work.

[00:30:11]>> If you if you hadn't pointed out saying you know leading with this was an error I'd just be like wow I just don't understand physics cuz I well it took this one took a century for someone to finally notice cuz I mean who goes into the dictionary looks up the definition for ciphon nobody >> especially someone who's 100% confident that they know what it is >> exactly and so it took this Dr. Steven Hughes was like, who knows why he was looking it up. Um, but yeah, >> it must be one of his students or someone brought it to him being like, "Listen, doc, >> you're a physicist. I don't understand how on earth this is atmospheric pressure. It's gravity." And he'd be like, "Yeah, it's obviously gravity.

[00:30:46]What are you talking about?" Well, look in the dictionary, doc. And he'd be like, "I'm going to send a sternly worded letter." Yeah. So, this I don't know. This just illustrates, right? Like looking and we looked really hard for like errors in dictionaries. They don't make them. Like it is insane. Their their level of accuracy is like unparalleled other than like the OED of course like we've pointed out sometimes they >> other than to dare found out.

[00:31:09]>> Yeah, we find things earlier examples all the time but that is just because we have tools second edition makers.

[00:31:15]>> We don't make errors ever. That was my joke.

[00:31:17]>> Oh yeah, totally. Don't ever make errors. Um but yeah, no we we >> yeah the what we have advantage over the second edition makers of the of the OED because we have the internet. Um the second edition makers didn't really. Um they that's for the third edition.

[00:31:33]That's just wait a couple more decades and that'll be out um officially.

[00:31:39]>> I cannot wait.

[00:31:41]>> The crazy thing about this can we get them to be a sponsor when it comes out?

[00:31:45]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:46]>> Your genuine excitement at that is gold.

[00:31:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. That would be >> Oh my That would be the best ever.

[00:31:54]>> It would be. Uh, >> maybe you'll send me a copy >> to get to get this in perspective here.

[00:31:59]I know we've mentioned it a little bit before, but so the in 2010 the third edition was 28% complete. Um, and they had been working on it for 21 years. 80 lexog lex lexographers. Really? I would have thought it would have been lexographers.

[00:32:15]>> I feel it's lexographers.

[00:32:17]>> Yeah, it says lexicographers. That just seems they're probably right. They're the language people. Um, >> oh wait, but is this uh Oh, this is in your writing.

[00:32:28]>> It is my writing, but I wouldn't have put that unless it was the thing. I'm googling it now.

[00:32:33]>> I'm also googling it. Oh, totally thing.

[00:32:35]A person who compiles extra dictionaries.

[00:32:38]>> Oh, there you go.

[00:32:39]>> Wow. Today I found out >> 21 years to get to that 28% complete.

[00:32:44]And Mr. Simpson, John Simpson, who had been overseeing this project, he retired in 2013 after 24 years. And so now they gave the job to Michael Profett, which is kind of funny, >> which he won't be making a profit.

[00:32:57]>> Yeah. Uh, and he was 48 years at the time, which means at the projected completion time that they're estimating for the third edition, he will be 70 years old and probably retired.

[00:33:08]>> In reality, his children will be dead.

[00:33:12]Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just cuz lots of time has gone past, I don't have any plans to kill Michael's children, just to be 100% clear. and cover my cover my legal basis.

[00:33:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know. I just find that insane. Now, if you do subscribe to their online thing, uh then you can get sort of the updates as they complete them. So, you can kind of get a sneak peek at the the gripping edition that's going to be out.

[00:33:34]>> Oh, I so exciting.

[00:33:37]>> But it's it's kind of expensive. So, I went with the $5 second edition um disc off eBay.

[00:33:42]>> How much is it?

[00:33:43]>> Um uh the the the subscription I think it's like $300 a year or something like that.

[00:33:47]>> Oh, wow. Okay. That's not a joke.

[00:33:49]>> Yeah. I mean I mean when you break it down to like month and what I mean the amount of work that goes into these >> 25 bucks a month. Netflix is like >> Yeah.

[00:33:56]>> way less than that.

[00:33:58]>> But yeah, the amount of work that goes into this thing is insane obviously.

[00:34:03]>> Yeah. About >> consider all of the content on Netflix.

[00:34:08]>> I'd say that's a larger amount of overall man hours. But when you look at that, they've already a lot of all the shows and well, not all of them, but a lot of them have already made money off other things, and Netflix is just like a new way to >> to do I mean, they do have originals, but >> but this it's not a it's not a fair comparison. Um I'm just >> Yeah, they're they're not making money there, so it's it's fine. Um >> Oh, there you go. $295 is right there in in the nights.

[00:34:35]>> Yeah. So, I mean, you can buy the $1,100 version though of the books. I'm good.

[00:34:40]I'm I'm just going to giggle it.

[00:34:42]>> You might you might guess that when the two late 2030s when the third edition, they're not planning to make a print edition. So, it'll just be the online unfortunately. Um, God, this is such a shame. My dreams have been shattered.

[00:34:55]>> This this brings us to sort of another misconception. So, every time, so you have these news reports all the time which are people are get upset about, oh, they're cutting this word from the dictionary, right? And this once again comes back to the misconception that the dictionary actually represents the English language like that it's like the definitive thing rather than just being sort of a record of certain words. Um so people get upset about about >> you know it's descriptive not procriptive. Prescriptive >> which is the right word there. The guy whatever his name was the the English the American dude who sounds like Sherlock Holmes.

[00:35:28]>> Um >> yeah exactly. So but people still get upset about it in news people like to report. So, how did they >> He was American, by the way. I looked him up while we were chatting.

[00:35:36]>> He was?

[00:35:36]>> Yeah. Yeah. Despite sounding like Sherlock Holmes.

[00:35:39]>> Yeah. No, I had a professor, a Greek uh Greek literature professor, and he had this problem when he went to England and he's like he was a linguist. He has like a PhD in linguist and in like ancient Greek and uh Latin and also history, like ancient history. and he goes to Britain and he had people making fun of the way he talked and it was just like this is like the most refined American like speech patterns you could ever poss like this like this Stanford guy and it was just like you know for him it was like a personal a personal affront because this was like his thing you know he was like the expert but yeah people people made fun of the way he talked I saw a video on YouTube about these like people from Boston and they speak with this super weird like refined almost Englishy sounding accent. They were like these super old like and they were all like 90s something and apparently their like accent was dying out or something.

[00:36:30]It was it was really weird. Um >> I don't know as a British person it's kind of like oh it's it doesn't sound American but it doesn't sound British.

[00:36:37]It's kind of >> well that's what the when you go back to like the Shakespearean English like we we covered a long time ago on that um how far back that video how far back could you go and still speak English to people and they would understand and you would understand them and you look at that Shakespearean time and it it turns out the Shakespearean uh the Shakespearean accent was more like what we would think of like a cross between pirate speak American and maybe like a hint of Irish you know like and it's like like literally just sound like Hollywood Hollywood pirate speak is basically what they actually which is so bizarre to think because you know nowadays Shakespeare is all refined and like you have that you know RP accent that people do um but back in the day it wasn't wasn't at all >> just speaking like pirates.

[00:37:19]>> Yeah, exactly. And it's insane. You hear that there's those uh two experts there.

[00:37:23]It's a father-son linguist team that do that do it and they they um do the accent like it is and it does sound so much like like Pirates of the Caribbean pirates or something. Um uh it's weird, but um so how do they decide what goes in and out of the concise editions of these things? And so like you have um it turns out it's really hard because they usually have to add more words of the in the concise editions than they're subtracting. And so like the Oxford Unity Press was tasked, they need cutting 200 words in the 12th edition of the Oxford English dictionary, but they needed to add 400 new words in 2011. And so to do it like they change format formatting, font size and stuff like that. But you can only do that so long before it becomes like unreadable class student like it needs to be three pages.

[00:38:08]Well, I guess I'll just be widening my margins.

[00:38:11]>> Yeah. And so this the senior editor of the dictionary um see I think was this one? Oh, this one was Collins dictionary. It was Cormarmac McAuen who would he would explain that to accomplish these changes uh oh because he actually had to do he had to uh get add some get rid of some 2,000 words in their two 2008 edition um and to add a ton more. So he stayed >> I feel like they could have added 20 remove 2008 words for the 2008 edition just >> for you know that'd be nice.

[00:38:41]>> Yeah. Uh he says, "We've been fiddling around with the type face to try and get more in, but it is a saturation point.

[00:38:47]There is a trade-off between getting them in and legibility."

[00:38:50]>> He's like, "Well, we've dropped it down to font size two."

[00:38:54]>> Yeah. This is where the controversy comes around where you see the news report size two even exist. No one can see this.

[00:39:00]>> Yeah, that's true. Uh well, when you're making those notes, you know, when you have like the open book test and then they're like, "You can have this one 3x5 card." Did you There was an awesome post on Reddit and it was like you it was uh how someone got around having a onesided uh notes. So they were like you know the professor said you can have one page of notes. So they made a mobious strip.

[00:39:24]So you know it loops around and it's always if you look at it it's like oh it is just one side and then the notes were on both sides of the you know.

[00:39:32]>> Yeah it's pretty clever.

[00:39:33]>> Yeah that's cool. Um but so like the for this particular one in the concise Oxford English dictionary 12th edition they had they had to get rid of cassette player for instance in favor of adding manini which was the of course the headlines. Uh and people were quite upset about that. Uh I'm not upset about it but it does seem weird because I don't need to look up manini because I know what it is.

[00:39:56]Whereas cassette player I'll be like >> I I if I heard that I'd be more inclined to look it up. Yeah, that is interesting to think about because yeah, the more obscure words, which is why in the end of the day, Oxford English dictionary, the complete, they try to keep every word because they want you to be able to look up be reading a book from 1890 and be like, "Oh, I don't know that word."

[00:40:15]And look it up in in the dictionary and it be there. Obviously, it's not going to be in the concise dictionary um that most people have. So, um but that the another one that was hugely controversial was Oxford Junior dictionary, which they had to cut um about 50 words connected to nature. So they cut words like acorn and buttercup and instead put in words like blog and chat room. So that was quite again controversial. But at the end of the day again the dictionary is not a record of all English language especially not a concise junior edition which only contains 10,000 words out of the 600,000 that are in the the full OED. So So there was a >> I looked up the definition of the manini by by Collins just for fun.

[00:40:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. uh a man's swimming costume consisting of a narrow V-shaped piece of material extending from the crotch to the shoulders. And you know like a group of linguists went over that how many times and like the volunteers and like all to to come up with this definition this perfect like how many hours were spent >> to put to put that one thing in. So um yeah. So, uh, >> use in a sentence.

[00:41:21]>> And don't even think of wearing a manini in the dining room.

[00:41:30]>> It's great to think about how much thought and effort was put into to that example sentence as well.

[00:41:35]>> Uh, well, this one is actually pulled from apparently. Uh, where was it from?

[00:41:40]Uh, that usage appeared in the Sunday Times in 2018.

[00:41:44]>> Oh, there you go. So, uh, Collins dictionary, speaking of them, they do they did this thing in 2008, which I think they should do. I don't know if they still do it, but I thought it was pretty clever. Uh, so they were trying to get the public to adopt archaic words just so they wouldn't have to cut them.

[00:41:57]Uh, and so there's some examples. So, they have um I don't know if you do you want to read the examples.

[00:42:03]>> Uh, yeah, if you help me in the notes where they actually are. I was looking up mania.

[00:42:09]>> Yeah, I've highlighted.

[00:42:10]>> Okay, there we go. Uh, nittering meaning cowardly. Fuzby maybe meaning fat shot short or squats.

[00:42:18]>> Villipens meaning to treat or regard with contempt. Oh, I rather like that.

[00:42:25]>> I like that one.

[00:42:26]>> I'd like to see that in a sentence though.

[00:42:29]>> Threequel. I don't like that. Meaning the third film, book, event, etc. in a series. A second sequel. This film seems like something I'd exclusively hear at like Comic-Con or something, you know?

[00:42:44]It feels incredibly nerdy somehow.

[00:42:47]>> Yeah, that's like where you have like once, twice, thrice, but then there's nothing. There's no there's no four >> quadrric.

[00:42:55]>> Yeah, there there I mean Yeah. See, you could just make up one and then watch people say it. Uh so yeah, there's a you have a sequel, but then you don't have just the third film in the trilogy is what people would say, which is much less concise. A prequel. People should bring that back. Um, and then one more.

[00:43:10]>> Finally, whittle meaning a man who tolerates his wife's infidelity. I feel like they could get a porn site to adopt that one, you know.

[00:43:16]>> Yeah. Well, they've been they what they tried to do here was get celebrities uh particularly to adopt them and start using them to try to get the public to use them, too. I just thought that's porn star to take whittle.

[00:43:28]>> Yeah. So, but yeah, that that is basically our episode today on dictionaries.

[00:43:33]>> Hey man, you made it interesting. Like I was I was concerned.

[00:43:37]I was thinking, "Oh god, dictionary episode. People don't like words. No one cares." But it's pretty funny.

[00:43:43]>> It's and it's fascinating how how much work goes into it and what is the dictionary actually because you have like the makers of the dictionary have one perspective of what what the dictionary is and linguists on what language and then you have like the general public which has a very different view of what the dictionary means. You know, like the dictionary is if it's in the dictionary, it's a word.

[00:43:59]If it's not, it's not a word is what a lot of people think. Um, and uh, yeah, it's not quite the linguist perspective, which I think is fascinating. Well, and it it is it's so representative in comments. I can tell you like you can tell the people who are actually linguists when they're correcting you or something and the people who are just like grammar Nazis. Um it's a it's a you know there's there's a very distinct style difference and one's very friendly and um helpful and the other >> the trick to it which is something I've learned to do over the years is uh is simply not care.

[00:44:30]>> Oh yeah. No. Yeah. I'm well past that. I just >> just >> after a while you just you know after like 10 years whatever but um I still >> I still I said and sometimes I do like to use the my best one I don't know if I leave them in the scripts at all but instead of grammar Nazis just with like is I usually when I mention grammar Nazis put an apostrophe like I apostrophe s >> nice >> and that that's that's always a good one. That's >> don't use a capital N either.

[00:45:01]>> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so moving on to reviews. I I didn't actually read these.

[00:45:08]I just took the ones from the last month that were kind of they seemed like they said something. They were longer, not like one sentence.

[00:45:15]>> Okay, great. Um I noticed you've you've selected all for five stars. Was that intentional or was that accidental?

[00:45:21]>> No, they were all they were all there was not a single one not five stars naturally.

[00:45:25]>> That's what I like to see. I I'll just zoom in on this because clearly it's in in font size two.

[00:45:32]Uh, I found this pod. Oh, thank you, too. Uh, dude, I'm not going to do all of them. You got like eight. Can I just do two cuz I got a pee. Okay. Yeah, sure. Just pick pick randomly. I have no idea. Okay.

[00:45:43]Uh, Mundane Megan says, "I found this podcast through Pandora and was instantly hooked. Did someone found us this podcast organically and not through YouTube?"

[00:45:55]>> This was another This We had someone else at one point who found us through Pandora. And I don't even know. I didn't even know we were on Pandora.

[00:46:03]>> I don't even know what Pandora is.

[00:46:05]>> Yeah, we have Pandora's that the radio subscription service basically. Uh sort of just music. And >> you say that like Oh, the radio subscription service. Who subscribes to radio? It's 2020.

[00:46:18]>> Well, it's basically like music, but like more like a radio where you don't get to pick the music you listen. I mean, you can pick like genres and you can like >> Why would I want to listen to radio when I where I don't get to choose the music or have the music algorithm selected me for things that I like >> for like discovery and stuff. I actually have a great >> That's why Spotify exists. It's called Discover Weekly. They're like, "Here's songs that uh" And I listened to an interview about this, how they screw it up on purpose a little bit to throw in things that you might not be into because then you might discover something you like.

[00:46:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, but Pandora's been around for a long time, so Yeah.

[00:46:52]Oh, I'm sorry, Megan. Let me carry on.

[00:46:56]She sought out the YouTube show as well.

[00:46:58]Loves the dynamic between the hosts.

[00:47:01]>> So, Megan found the podcast first and YouTube second. This might be the first person ever.

[00:47:08]>> It's pretty interesting. That'll bring up our external traffic. Have you looked in the analytics where it's like externally driven traffic for our channel? 0.00001%.

[00:47:18]And it was like probably all coming from that time where we were on the MSN homepage for like a day.

[00:47:24]>> Oh. Uh, she loves learning about stuff and history and knowledge. Loves tangents. God knows why. And that they eventually because they eventually loop back to the main topic. That's why it's just the anticipation of getting back to something useful. I'm not sure why I'm reading this in like not >> get bor get boring and then the main topic sounds more interesting. That's That's right. I mean, why would you >> Yeah. No, that's Yeah, >> you don't want to peak peak too early in the episode, you know?

[00:47:55]>> No. Somehow we'll get off a rant about Adobe and bring it back to words. Um I only wish they were more edited. Edited to add. I wished the random Star Trek facts were brought back. Oh, dude, that was years ago.

[00:48:11]>> I totally forgot we used to do that.

[00:48:13]>> Wow.

[00:48:15]Yeah. It feels a bit random though, doesn't it? Now, now that I feel we know what we're doing a bit more.

[00:48:21]>> Yeah. Well, do do we?

[00:48:24]>> No. I got to get on a skillshare.com/brainfood.

[00:48:31]Um, >> okay. Uh, yeah. By the way, if you're wondering why is this not well edited, probably because you're although she got the podcast version, so it is very it is edited.

[00:48:42]>> Joel, come on.

[00:48:46]Um, Joel's our podcast editor who I feel does a good job, but uh, maybe I'm missing something.

[00:48:53]>> Most educating educational duo out there. Been a long time fan of the channel. Binged the podcast in a matter of a month. Every episode is amazing.

[00:49:03]Their friendly conversation also helps make it interesting. I even love learning about the differences between the UK and the States through the podcast. as Dave and Simon talk about them on occasion. How do you feel about that, Dave?

[00:49:17]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:20]>> Do I correct? Your name is actually David, although everyone always calls you Dave.

[00:49:25]>> Is Dave a shortened version of David?

[00:49:27]Can Can people say Dave? I mean, people do. I mean, I go by whatever. People got my name wrong all the time, like my whole life. So, yeah, this I can see why. I don't even notice to be completely honest. You know, you don't register it consciously. Why?

[00:49:42]>> It's also strange cuz your brother's called Scott and I that feel that is like if you could choose, you know, it's like John, Peter, Scott, Mike, David.

[00:49:54]Really?

[00:49:55]Why is your name David? I don't know. I don't >> It's not wildly popular in the US and I'm just missing a trick, right?

[00:50:03]>> Well, I think uh Well, I mean, the No, the Jonathan was more after my dad, John, and then I don't know, Scott. I have no idea. Uh, and I think my parents took turns naming. Uh, and so I don't know.

[00:50:17]>> Fair enough.

[00:50:18]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:19]>> Listen, do you want me to wrap this up with doing one more or do you want me to end the show?

[00:50:23]>> Well, I say one question to wrap it up.

[00:50:26]What is one thing that you know that is different about the US than Britain that we haven't mentioned? Like just you.

[00:50:34]>> Dude, are you joking? We I feel like half the podcast is like me talking about. Is that a thing? Is that a thing?

[00:50:39]Yeah. Yeah. So, like what what uh what what is one thing where you you're over in the US and you're like, "Well, that's totally not a thing." Oh. Oh, I got it.

[00:50:46]I got one.

[00:50:47]>> We were in the car. We were in the car driving and you were like, "Uh, should we say I was driving, not drinking, and you said, cuz I I don't like alcohol, but you were like, "Let's put the beer in the glove box," or whatever you called it. And Scott and I were like, >> "Okay, talking about where's this mysterious glove box?" And no. And and you were and you were like, "Wait, it doesn't get cold when you put it in there?" And we were like, "No, >> wait. Is so glove box is a thing. We're not talking about the word."

[00:51:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. The the I don't know what you would call it.

[00:51:21]>> A cubby hole where you put stuff.

[00:51:23]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:23]>> By the passenger seat.

[00:51:24]>> And And you were wanting to cool off the beer and and we were like, "Okay."

[00:51:29]>> Yeah.

[00:51:29]>> But we don't There's It doesn't cool.

[00:51:31]And I We thought that is amazing and that should be in cars in the US. Like that should be >> Hang on. I'm just wondering if this is like not all cars have this. Don't think this is something that you go buy like a bottom of the range Toyota and it's going to come with like the air conditioning that feeds into the glove box. I just think I've had a couple of cars that have done it. And that that is so easy to accomplish, too. Like it's just a little pipe that runs from the air. Why is why isn't that that can't that's not expensive. That should be in all cars that have like a little cooling, you know? Yeah, I just assumed because you'd drive a Tesla and I was like, you know, in terms of technology it, you know, you'd find it in like a Mercedes or something, I guess. I don't know, maybe Toyota does it now or maybe this is a normal thing. But I was like, I assumed Tesla would do it because it's a technology car. They have all this stuff. I mean, it's not complicated. And then you were like, "No, it just gets real hot in there." And I'm like, "Yeah, why not feed the AC in there?"

[00:52:24]>> Maybe they're fancy ones, you know? I just have the Model 3, which I don't have like the like the X and S. Maybe they they have like stuff. I don't know.

[00:52:31]Maybe they have that.

[00:52:33]>> Maybe. I don't know. It seems like a really good idea though cuz then it's like if especially if you're on a long drive just a little pipe thing, you know, that would be and it would be easy. And I don't know. I thought that was genius. And I was like, that's amazing. I've never even heard of that in a in a car. But, you know, at the same time, I've only ever my car my car before the Model 3 was a 1988 Toyota Tracel, which I drove for 20ome years.

[00:52:54]So, >> yeah. Dude, I remember. And you're like, you're like, "Dude, to talk about fancy cars.

[00:53:01]>> You're telling me all these amazing things the Tesla does." And I'm like, "Yeah, dude. Like my six-year-old Land Rover does this." You know?

[00:53:08]>> Exactly. Look at this. The windows roll down when you press a button. You don't have to use two hands because it's so bound up.

[00:53:16]>> No. Um, no. Kids, kids, they make you upgrade your car. So, you know, >> calorie counts on everything. like you go in and I think if you look on the back of like the menu in, >> you know, if you go into a McDonald's and you've got the tray with like, you know, the paper on it and you flip it over, the calorie counts will be on there.

[00:53:35]>> But one of the big things I found in the US is like you go up and it's like, yeah, cheeseburger, you know, 400 calories and it's telling you right there and I'm like, well, okay, I guess I'll just get a salad.

[00:53:47]>> But yeah, that that was strange. And then also just I don't know whenever I wasn't with you or like I was waiting to go home or whatever and I'd just go to a restaurant like I'd be like okay I'm just going to have a look through the menu and I'd challenge myself to find the highest calorie count s you know surprisingly high calorie count items.

[00:54:03]There was a there was a milkshake from I've had breakfast at a Denny's and uh there was a milkshake that had 1,400 calories. I'm like dude that's like half a day. This is 70% of your calorie needs for the day.

[00:54:18]>> That's like the um Outback Steakhouse um onion bloom appetizer. The appetizer. I don't know. It's like 4 or 5,000 calories. The appetizer.

[00:54:28]Um >> it's not right.

[00:54:30]>> I just prefer not knowing.

[00:54:33]>> Yeah, it's for the best. Wow. Yeah, that was that was surprising.