Tonight interview | Economy : Facts and stories [Part 2]

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-22

[00:00:02]Welcome back. You're still watching um tonight and it's time for us to continue the conversation with the member of parliament for Kiharu constituency who is also the former chairperson of the budget and appropriations committee.

[00:00:14]We've seen your communication to parliament and of course communication to you in regards to your proposals. You are seeking to have the VAT on fuel exempted. Is it exempted or zero rated?

[00:00:29]exempted >> exempted and then and then secondly you also want the road maintenance levy to be reduced to 18 shillings.

[00:00:37]>> Explain to us uh the logic of this and you know exemption has consequences for people that would want to claim VAT.

[00:00:46]>> How have you thought about that?

[00:00:47]>> It's zero rating is the one that has that challenge. But let me put it holistically.

[00:00:53]>> Um currently the kind of prices we have for fuel >> Yeah. are not paratable because the reason why I wrote to the speaker and the national assembly so that we do something about the prices is based on two on one major thing.

[00:01:10]>> Yeah, >> we must do a tradeoff whether we want to spend some money now and then we arrest future crisis in the economy or we want to rest the economy just at lases fair do nothing the economy sorts itself and then we'll have a big catastrophe going forward. So my reasoning is this.

[00:01:30]Currently super is around 214.

[00:01:32]>> Yeah.

[00:01:33]>> And you allow me to refer to the prices that uh we were announced by Apra because we are there are still some negotiations.

[00:01:40]>> So what APRA announced in terms of diesel was 242 shillings.

[00:01:45]>> Mhm.

[00:01:45]>> So my proposal number one is to exempt fuel products from VAT technically knocking off 8% out of the VAT of fuel products precisely diesel. I have my my my workings have majorly worked on in super and and diesel.

[00:02:01]>> The second thing is that there is a levy on fuel levy that was added in the year 2024.

[00:02:07]>> A levy of seven shillings. I've also proposed that we also knock it off and uh so that we bring we can save around seven shillings in terms of the pump.

[00:02:17]>> Mhm. The other intervention that we have to do some >> is that in terms of the profit margins for all the people involved importers and also distributors >> and marketers we are talking about over 17 shillings per liter of petrol that per of fuel that that Kenyans pay.

[00:02:36]>> My proposal is that we knock four shillings out of that.

[00:02:39]>> Mhm. And the last thing intervention is that we go back to the fuel stabilization fund and add an extra 5 billion shillings to precisely stabilize diesel. If we do all those measures, we'll be we'll have reduced the price of diesel >> by around 54 shillings and we will have reduced the price of super by to below 188.

[00:03:02]>> Mhm.

[00:03:02]>> So in terms of the question you asked, I had thought about exemption and zero rating. Zero rating has quite some work >> because it allows for claims.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah.

[00:03:13]>> Exempting I mean the back ends there up to when you are not paying VAT.

[00:03:17]>> Mhm. So before I get to the details on that um about uh claiming and not claiming if I offer transport service >> Yeah.

[00:03:28]>> that transport service attracts VAT isn't it?

[00:03:30]>> Yeah.

[00:03:31]>> So if the VAT on fuel is exempted >> um how does that go? it there. You can't claim there. Okay, this is the difference between zero rating and and and exempting.

[00:03:43]>> Exempting if you exempt, you exempt the pump price. But when it comes to it as an input, you can't claim as an input.

[00:03:51]You get what I mean?

[00:03:52]>> Mhm. So, so, so, so then if the other elements that are involved in uh the transport service, >> Yes.

[00:03:58]>> then you can claim against those.

[00:04:00]>> No, you can't claim. This is the thing exempting. That's the reason why I really want us to reduce the cost of the price of fuel >> because once you bring it down then you have actually also worked worked on fuel as an input. Remember fuel is two things.

[00:04:16]>> Fuel is both for consumption and as an input.

[00:04:18]>> Mhm.

[00:04:19]>> So I'm handling it at the exempting level because it handles both.

[00:04:23]>> Okay.

[00:04:24]>> Both as a consu the consumer base in terms of the basis of being a consumer good but also on the basis of being an input. However, on fuel being an input, then you not claim uh this VAT. You can only claim if it's zero rated and how we've seen in the past, >> it becomes a quagmire and it does not end up benefiting the real Kenyans. It ends up benefiting the businesses only.

[00:04:48]Okay.

[00:04:49]>> Some the reason >> for this >> because people may argue I mean we are spending money why do it? If we let the prices of fuel remain the way they are, remember fuel as an input, fuel as an input also causes um um um what is called cost push inflation.

[00:05:12]>> Mhm.

[00:05:12]>> So what does that mean? When you increase the price of fuel, now I have seen in your news, our brothers and sisters in the transport sector >> have already increased fairs. So the prices going up become sticky. the ones that affects the Kenyans. So the reason for us arresting now without buying time is that if we let the prices of things like transportation go up like for example manufacturing go up and therefore the ED who is the consumer pays more the prices becomes very sticky coming downwards >> so that even if there is an intervention in the next one month for example you never hear a press conference of fears coming down >> so that's the reason of us of me proposing that we must act now without delay.

[00:06:00]>> Mhm. But then have you thought about the implication on the revenue side? Because when you look at the the data you have from the Kenya revenue authority, oil taxes in the financial year 2024 2025 gave the country 318 billion shillings in collections and out of that you had 119 billion shillings in road maintenance levy fund. If you reduce VAT or you exempt VAT, you're going to lose.

[00:06:28]So for the full year, the VAT on fellow was 74 billion shillings. You're going to lose an element for the months that that will be in in force. But also the road maintenance levy knowing too well that part of it seven shillings is already securitized for an amount we are told is 175 billion shillings.

[00:06:48]>> Sam, I have worked this thing that I've proposed. I've worked on it very deeply.

[00:06:52]Yeah, >> I actually took a lot of time working on these proposals.

[00:06:57]>> I've worked on the revenue side, but I've also gone ahead to work on the expenditure side >> so that we have a balanced budget. Yeah.

[00:07:04]>> After we cut off this money in terms of the revenue, I have actually also worked on which areas can we extract some fat and cut it off.

[00:07:13]>> Mhm. So Kenya sps or consumes around 240 million lit of diesel per month and we consume around 185 million L of super petrol per month.

[00:07:26]>> Mhm.

[00:07:27]>> So in my workings the 8% in terms of uh v in terms of diesel is around 17 shillings.

[00:07:36]>> Mhm.

[00:07:37]>> In petrol is around 15 shillings. So working the holistic figure and also in putting because once the prices go up economically you also have to account for lower demand.

[00:07:50]>> Yeah.

[00:07:50]>> So accounting for all that we need around 7 to 8.5 billion shillings every month.

[00:07:57]>> Mhm.

[00:07:58]>> But my interventions for now which we can renew are for 6 months. Mhm.

[00:08:03]>> Because I've also studied how the prices of shocks when there are shocks in the global markets, how long do they last like when we had um Ukraine, Russia and the others.

[00:08:15]>> So I've worked on also that. So we'll be spending around 7.5 thereabout to 8.5 billion a month in a period of 6 months which according to history is sufficient period for a barrel of oil to have stabilized downwards >> especially when we are optimistic enough that the war may not last for too long.

[00:08:35]>> So if I use the average then between 8 billion shillings >> in 6 months that's 48 billion shillings >> precisely. I've actually that my figure is 45 billion.

[00:08:44]>> 45 billion. you are you you're [laughter] on the same page.

[00:08:47]>> Yeah. So 45 billion shillings and national I mean the total collection in a full year was 74 billion shillings in 202425 and this is I'm using this figure because it's it's the figure that we have for a full year.

[00:09:00]>> So 74 call it 75 - 45 you have lost so much just remaining with 30.

[00:09:06]>> No no >> the figure you've read is for one item.

[00:09:10]My cumulative is for much more than the one item. We are talking about both the prices the VAT and the fuel levy.

[00:09:19]Yes.

[00:09:19]>> So >> if you do the math the way you are doing just 1 + 1 it may not suffice >> because after you do the 240 million lit >> and the 1.5 185 >> you have to also account >> using the data >> for previous periods how these kind of shocks also affect demand.

[00:09:38]>> Mhm. So if you do um a figure in terms of a block figure it's coming to around 9.1 billion >> but if you net off a decrease in um an obvious decrease in consumption >> which is given through price signal definitely >> the real figure >> is around maximum 8 billion shillings.

[00:09:58]>> So so so let's face it here >> you have a budget of 4.67 trillion shillings to finance for the year ending next month.

[00:10:06]>> Very good. And you are proposing to cut these taxes.

[00:10:11]>> Yes.

[00:10:11]>> Um so what is the hold there?

[00:10:14]>> Remember we are having the change of the financial year in June.

[00:10:19]>> Mhm.

[00:10:20]>> So between now and June will only account for one and a half months. Then we jump into the new financial year >> and the the the wisdom of parliament that's why it was that instead of me introducing a private members bill >> then in this process that we are doing we jump in there >> because it will be shorter period >> and we also not just take time to deal with the next one and a half years we'll actually also deal with is this issue up to approximately uh November or December there about.

[00:10:51]>> Mhm.

[00:10:52]>> Yes. So please answer the question because we have a financial year that needs to be financed and if you you referenced the collections up to the 9th month of about 2 trillion shillings. So there's still a gap.

[00:11:03]>> Yes.

[00:11:03]>> Um we have a budget to finance from July this year to June next year.

[00:11:08]>> Yes.

[00:11:09]>> In your month >> how much of an implication >> have you seen that we need now to cut out in expenditure?

[00:11:17]>> Very good. I actually have already worked on that and everyone has to tighten their belts not Kenyans >> the government itself Kenyans have no more belts to tighten now >> and every person including CDF every organ must take some haircut so this haircut is starting from ourselves because we have to walk the talk we have we hive off something from CDF we hive off something from uh parliament in fact some in my calculations for expedit I have been very ruthless when it comes to foreign travel. Kenyans can no longer travel around the country. We cannot have a paradox of also allocating so much money for government officials to travel across the world. So that is one area that I am actually extracting all the flesh. The other areas of course are the areas youated here is only that there are some details >> I cannot give on TV. I know exactly where the fat is even in security organs and I'm going for it because we have to do it now or postpone this problem and we all have to pay the price which will be too dire.

[00:12:26]>> So in terms of the of the expenditure >> that's why I'll be appearing on two committees the finance committee >> so that we deal with the cuts in in in in revenues >> but I'll also be appearing before the budget committee >> because I have in excess of 100 billion shillings on where we can we can cut off the We can cut off the flesh.

[00:12:46]>> Okay.

[00:12:47]>> The fat.

[00:12:48]>> So when you when you said that your figure is 45 billion shillings, so in the next financial year estimates of 4.8, we should already be getting rid of some 45 billion shillings in expenditure.

[00:12:58]>> You precisely on both sides.

[00:13:01]>> Okay.

[00:13:01]>> I have done it to balance because I don't want issues. And by the way, I've gone further some >> today because the beauty about Kenyans, they keep on volunteering information.

[00:13:11]As I go through this process, I'm getting also very enriched by Kenyans.

[00:13:16]Today, I've written to the cler to also propose a cut of seven shillings.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah.

[00:13:21]>> In terms of excise duty.

[00:13:23]>> Mhm.

[00:13:23]>> For this reason.

[00:13:24]>> Mhm.

[00:13:25]>> I don't want to carry on this process.

[00:13:27]Then along the way, the government starts telling us there is no seven shillings in the fuel levy because as you know, they took off an illegal loan.

[00:13:35]Mhm.

[00:13:35]>> So I have taken a measure a fall back measure in terms of exercise duty >> so that if there is a problem in few levy >> then there there will definitely not be a problem when it comes to excise duty.

[00:13:49]>> So so you want parliament to consider either or >> my my proposal is whatever goes goes through first it suffices.

[00:13:58]>> Okay. All right. So as you referenced that um the road maintenance levy fund which you just mentioned there and the obligations that the government has uh on behalf of Kenyans >> and you are collecting 119 billion shillings.

[00:14:16]>> The house members of parliament keep telling Kenyans that you want roads we have to find ways of financing it. If you reduce seven shillings so that we go back to 18 shillings >> and that may lead to a decline.

[00:14:29]>> How then do we fix that? Easy.

[00:14:33]The budget for roots is not one item.

[00:14:36]>> Mhm.

[00:14:36]>> The budget for roots comes in three major items. One is what we call excheer budget. That is the money fedded by the Republic of Kenya. There is also some money from external fers especially when you have um money advanced by other quotas and we are talking about huge money and there is also money for recurrent.

[00:14:57]>> Mhm.

[00:14:58]>> The money for RMLF by the way they usually go like aad.

[00:15:03]>> Yeah.

[00:15:04]>> So the money that we call recurrent >> is basically the money for RMLF. It reaches between 80 to some 80 something billion a year. So we have to ask ourselves in terms of administration what is easier >> to cut off the budget and then advance money for stabilization in terms of subsidy >> or do do we just go at the source? So this is what I mean.

[00:15:30]>> Mhm. You can reduce the budget of roads when it comes to RMLF >> but you actually increase the side of the development expenditure which is called ex I mean the internally funded budget for roads.

[00:15:45]>> Mhm.

[00:15:45]>> But then one would argue where will this money come from? I've also actually also tabulated that I've told you on the revenue side >> I've already knocked off around 48 billion Kenya 45 to 48 billion Kenya shillings.

[00:15:59]>> Mhm. so that the prices come down. But in terms of the C on expenditure on things that do not affect Kenyans at all, >> political money, money for travel, I'll be able to hive off more than 100 billion Kenya shillings. So we have enough to take care of our of our roads without bulldozing and black blackmailing Kenyans that there is no alternative other than to levy those kind of huge taxes. What is political money >> Sam? Political money is the money that Kenyans have actually no view on. And let me give you an example which you covered on citizen I saw the other time.

[00:16:41]>> Mhm.

[00:16:43]>> When you go to big offices there is money called operations and management and in that there is money called confidential FUD.

[00:16:54]That is money that you are supposed to spend money as a government official and no Kenyan should ask you how he spent it.

[00:17:04]>> Did you put it back?

[00:17:06]>> The president when I was chairwoman of budget after the protests he actually said it on press.

[00:17:13]No more confidential fs in my last year. We removed all of it because that was a directive. Mhm. zooming in into this budget coping because I've done that there is more than 100 billion Kenya shillings in political money and it's obvious we headed towards an election I know where it is and just wait for when I appear before the budget committee just hold on because that point is important um so confidential vote the president I think it was on the 26th of um um was it June 2020 24 he announced that it has to be scrapped. Now you're saying it's back under back >> under what name?

[00:17:57]>> It comes under O name. You'll never see a name confidential vote but it's there.

[00:18:01]>> Elections and maintenance for what departments?

[00:18:05]>> Of course the two big offices and some security organs which you allow me not to be specific.

[00:18:11]>> So two big two big offices you mean what?

[00:18:14]>> Yes.

[00:18:14]>> Two big offices.

[00:18:15]>> Which are the two big offices in Kenya?

[00:18:17]>> You tell me which ones I don't know which ones are funded.

[00:18:21]which I I just mean which are the two big offices >> you know that >> that's precise what I'm avoiding on this show >> is to start spewing names then we lack the content of this discussion you know those offices and you know one that have spent 17 billion Kenya shieldings and spent money for the entire financial year the money was spent in or in around half an year that money that had been appropriated to be spent around 8 billion. One of his spent 17 billion Kenya shieldings. That's what I'm calling political money and this money is in cash and I'm not the only person raising these issues. I am sure you'll see even the office of the auditor general being very concerned about >> that's not exactly accurate unless you're referring to a different office because the figure that we have from the control of budget is that state house spent its budget for the full year of about 8.5 billion shillings by the first 6 months. They went to parliament for a supplementary budget to raise it to 17 billion shillings for the full year. So it's not yet spent.

[00:19:24]>> Okay. All right. The year is ending. So you check after the year ends and then call me back here. So So what do you think it was being raised? It was being raised. Number one, let me tell you some.

[00:19:34]>> Yeah.

[00:19:34]>> If you look at the details, the money had actually been spent some of it.

[00:19:39]>> Remember there is article 223.

[00:19:42]>> Mhm.

[00:19:42]>> Where an office can actually spend money and come to parliament for ratification.

[00:19:48]Instead of belaboring the point the year is 45 days away, call me back here.

[00:19:54]>> They'll actually have over spent that that same amount.

[00:19:57]>> There's one issue that I need us to tie about [clears throat] the road maintenance levy. So if already the government has securitized or borrowed against seven shillings of the RMLF, >> so we have obligations to those that have uh given us the credit.

[00:20:13]>> How do you propose you deal with that if you reduce the seven shillings? This is the time of awakening. I've been to this studio, talked about this jargon of securitization.

[00:20:26]It is now biting us.

[00:20:27]>> Mhm.

[00:20:28]>> Let me shock you because I have spent a lot of hours preparing for my proposals.

[00:20:38]As I appear before the finance committee in terms of the cuts, y >> I am actually not aware there is securitization because there is no single document anywhere in parliament in regards to securitization.

[00:20:51]It was an illegal loan. It remains an illegal loan and we cannot as Kenyans continue to respect a debt on the basis of the money has been spent. So how do you know there is security? Have you ever seen because some I know you are very meticulous. You said the money has been borrowed against. Show me the documents.

[00:21:11]>> Parliament would have it.

[00:21:13]>> Zero. I've asked for it.

[00:21:17]>> That is the code of malfence you're talking about.

[00:21:19]>> What's the explanation?

[00:21:21]>> There is none.

[00:21:22]>> Sorry. You've asked for it on phone or formally on the floor?

[00:21:25]>> I asked for it in the committee as I appeared last time. There was none.

[00:21:33]>> So if it exists, >> Yes.

[00:21:35]>> What's your proposal? That's why there is I have proposed excise duty cut because I know the games these guys are likely to play. I know them. So I have proposed the cut in terms of UV but because I know the games I've also proposed a cut in excess duty so that whichever comes first Kenyans must get reprieve and by the way Sam let me tell you for avoidance of doubt there is political >> and there is objective proposals.

[00:22:06]I have taken so much time to do these things and there is no other way the country is going to give Kenyans reprief in the pump other than using these proposals. So I'm asking the guys in government, I've seen them going from TV stations to the other calling press conferences even tomorrow I know there are some instead of wasting so much time for Kenyans let us get back to parliament on Tuesday have this as a as the first agenda we can get it done by Tuesday evening.

[00:22:38]>> Now the excess duty that you're talking about first of all the data from care that in 2024 2022 uh they collected 77.6 6 billion shillings out of excess duty on fuel and excess duty on a liter of super petrol is 21 shillings 95 cents on kerosene it's 11 shillings 37 cents and it's the same amount for diesel so this is why you want seven shillings deducted >> seven shillings >> across the >> across the board because I've worked with an aggregate figure >> of all the liters >> yeah and there's also a proposal that we have seen of your colleague member of parliament for to is Joffetto proposing similar things to yours but going ahead to suspend um import declaration fee on diesel specifically zero rating excess duty on diesel zating VAT on diesel and and and and super petrol and also additional stabilization support at a rate of 2.5 billion shillings per month and again because there are many functions to be financed and I know you're saying that there's political money there's everything else but we are in the 11th month of the financial year there are several functions that are saying we have not re received the excheer releases if you go to schools they'll tell you that we have not received sufficient number of books how do you protect those important social sectors from the impact of such kind of cuts >> we have already protected them because the proposed cuts in expenditure have nothing about the service to Kenyans it has everything to do with servicing the juggernaut called government machinery the money that holds the government machinery is where I'm cutting off and the proposals from my colleague I am not a monopoly of proposals >> y >> I wish we can actually have many more members proposing as many diverse measures as possible but by Tuesday we must harmonize them because I don't want to see a situation where some you He'll call me here the next two weeks discussing about an obvious thing.

[00:24:48]>> It's time that >> we just do the right thing.

[00:24:52]>> How do you get goodwill from the house?

[00:24:58]>> I don't think there'll be a challenge here. The challenge I see is political doineering of the executive.

[00:25:05]Many of the of my colleagues are very reasonable. Majority have called me in terms of support for these proposals.

[00:25:13]Some are already voicing the support for these proposals to their constituents.

[00:25:19]>> Mhm.

[00:25:20]>> We'll have a very important period now for Kenyans to actually see and weigh.

[00:25:26]>> Mhm.

[00:25:27]>> The caliber of the leaders we have it will be open in terms of voting and I know people will do the right thing.

[00:25:34]>> But now the war in Iran if it is the cause.

[00:25:38]>> Yeah.

[00:25:38]>> It continues. There's no sign of it ending.

[00:25:41]>> Mhm. Next time we have a consignment um the pressing regime of 14th of June will depend on what we are told >> the fuel received by the 10th of June.

[00:25:53]So there could be challenges that may raise the landed cost.

[00:25:57]>> How do you propose we maneuver in future even if you cut all these taxes?

[00:26:01]>> How do you propose we deal with if the product cost keeps rising?

[00:26:06]>> That's a good answer. Sorry, a good question. If the prices keep on rising, having knocked off some of the levies will make the price cheaper than it ought to be. You get what I mean? Even if there is a lading cost increases next month and you have knocked off 54 shillings out of diesel, that 54 shillings is constant irregardless.

[00:26:28]>> Mhm.

[00:26:29]>> So there is still reprieve.

[00:26:33]Okay. Now let's talk about uh because we understand that there are consultations going on between the transport sector stakeholders and the president in in Mombasa and hopefully we'll have outcomes uh perhaps tomorrow but moving on um you have also spoken about u the government to government deal >> very good very and you've pretty opposed it which has been with us since 2023 if I'm not mistaken March 2023 I think the first consignment came in April.

[00:27:06]>> Um why are you so opposed to it?

[00:27:08]>> I am opposed to G2G because it is a kiosk. It is a sham. It is just an instrument of patronage.

[00:27:18]It there is no market dynamics in it. It is just political interference and profit make profitering.

[00:27:25]The 75% importation of G2G is harded by extremely very senior leaders in this country and it is abhorrent some that as we try to look for these kind of measures to give Kenyans some reprief in the pump our leaders are benefiting from all business as we talk the importers margin of six shillings most of it runs directly into the pockets of leaders through political patronage.

[00:27:59]>> Which leaders?

[00:28:00]>> Do your research. I have been here many times and I know you do a lot of investigative journalism.

[00:28:06]>> No, don't do that.

[00:28:07]>> It's a low-lying fruit.

[00:28:09]>> Which leaders?

[00:28:09]>> You know them. I don't need to be labor and I'm saying in this show I'll not mention any name but I'll only fall shy of doing that >> because I don't want to sensationalize to be >> sensational. I'm asking that we saw um communication um I think it was in March 2023 and the kind of conversations that was steered by energy cabinet secretary then devis then we were told that an agreement has been reached to give stability of um fuel supplies in a short while we saw the first ship docking and the people to receive it were then deputy president Gashagua and the likes of uh David D who is a presidential adviser or the the chairperson of the presidential advisory council. So so so then when you say that senior leaders are they receive 75% of all the imports. So who are you talking about? I mean you are a Kenyan I don't need even to go further than this. You already know and I can give you more hint.

[00:29:14]>> Mhm.

[00:29:17]G2G as some before I give you the second hint should actually not be G2G >> should be what >> should be G toC government to cartel on the side of supply >> we are dealing with Saudi Aramco which is a government entity in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia >> in the UAE we are dealing with ADNO that's a government-owned enterprise in Kenya we had an enterprise called No, which was bypassed.

[00:29:49]The reason why we bypassed no is because we'd have handled a national problem.

[00:29:54]>> Y >> using our national instruments but it was so difficult for an individual to benefit. That is why we cobbled up some pe some entities which Kenyans never knew before to become the sole um importers of fuel. I want to give without an avoidance of doubt and I I said this in JKL and I want to repeat yeah >> just for your future reference >> G2G is a kiosk of senior leaders just to underline and if you trace the same G2G you'll find the same entities cobbling up profits from importation are the same who have taken over our natural resources in Tukana the oil resources in Truana which belongs to the people of Kenya as we talk to you now as I talk to you now has been taken over by the same cabal we have to draw the line some because maybe we'll have time to talk about debt and other issues economically if we get it wrong in terms of exploration of oil and minerals in Kenya >> Mhm. then we'll have actually no exit in terms of the problems that we have and I'm calling upon our leaders as we address the press let us also be brave enough to admit where we are making money out of the miseries of Kenyans >> when you talk about um the resources in Truana do you know the company that is now doing the exploration >> I will not mention companies or names I'm giving you homework to >> no no I'm just asking do you know them >> I know everything.

[00:31:33]>> So how >> and I've given you enough lead >> how they connected to senior leaders >> you find out.

[00:31:38]>> When did you realize this?

[00:31:41]>> Um I realized that around in terms of senior leaders being involved.

[00:31:49]>> Yes.

[00:31:49]>> Or in terms of which companies are involved >> and that G2G was a kiosk. Reme getting information over and over and to and it crystallizes to something that can be verbalized in terms of having the confidence that I have evidence. I knew the real evidence earlier this year.

[00:32:09]>> This is 2026.

[00:32:10]>> Yes. So in previously just just like any other Kenyan I actually used to think we have an arrangement that you know every time you're doing something that benefits you as a leader of course that's not how you package it even when you are chair budget you thought this was a good arrangement >> remember this issue has nothing to do with the chairman of budget or budget committee >> I'm just referencing the period >> honestly like every other remember that time the global oil prices we are doing very well in terms of an oil producing country.

[00:32:44]>> Y >> we were in summer in terms of low uh cost of barrels.

[00:32:49]>> Y >> so there was actually nothing much to excite or to cause anyone to do anything. M >> so the more now we get the pain the more you get interest that's like obviously in many other facets of life and when I dug deeper which I'm also calling upon you to do that the facts are so the facts are so near the ground that you don't need to dig for them you just scratch and you'll see them so how do you respond to those that would accuse you of complacency while you were in the good books of the leadership of this country.

[00:33:26]>> Mhm.

[00:33:26]>> And now because you're no longer chairman budget and the things have not gone as you had intended in 20122 that's why you're speaking >> you mean about all things or about oil?

[00:33:36]>> Everything including GTOJ >> everything like you know I've been speaking about many things >> debt securitization the economy oil capitation and all the others. So if it's holistic about all sorry about all those things y some I was chairman of budget and I'm actually very proud about the role that we played for our nation in fact I have never seen anywhere anyone accuse the budget committee of anything even when there were protests there was zero about budget committee.

[00:34:17]>> Mhm. In fact, if you check [snorts] in the hansards of parliament, you realize that the then leaders of opposition including bad and junet just look for answers. They used to hail the process and also commend the outcomes.

[00:34:34]But I also own up to the fact that we have not been able to explain very well to Kenyans that there are three committees in parliament that deal directly with the economy.

[00:34:46]>> Mhm. One is the budget committee, >> right?

[00:34:49]>> It deals only with the expenditure.

[00:34:52]There is the finance committee that deals with the revenue side of the budget.

[00:34:56]>> Y >> taxes, levies and all the other things in between standalone committee with a chair.

[00:35:04]We were not it was not part of the domain of the budget committee.

[00:35:08]>> There is another one called debt and privatization committee.

[00:35:14]you and I'm saying this because when I talk about debt of course I get reminded by Kenyans you are chairman of budget look for my answers even when I was chairman of budget >> y >> whether I have ever exhausted the kind of debt uptake that we having so it's good that we distinguish all those things >> on our side we did our job but probably I said it yesterday somewhere else maybe because of the personalities of some of us uh we may end up taking responsibility >> even for the [clears throat] other committees. However, as I sign up off on that >> y >> some I also want to say that I am grateful that I served Kenyans in that capacity because it has made me a better leader and a better representative of the people.

[00:36:03]>> Mhm. the kind of issues we are handling the fuel the securitization that I've been handling the debt situation the economy holistically I want to admit to you that without the experience of me having been the chairman of budget I would not have been a better representation of the people of Kenya than I am now >> but sometimes you have to take the pet pill because many times I can talk and then some people will remind you you are chairman of budget even maybe when you nothing at all to do with some of the things that we are talking about.

[00:36:39]I take that responsibility because I also learned is maybe part of the reason I am on this bench today. But tell me how how difficult is it if you're in such a position or you're serving in such a capacity or you're a member of the National Assembly from the majority side. How difficult is it to point out that which ideally would be seen to be going wrong against Kenyans?

[00:37:07]>> Some you know when you in a team that time we were in a team.

[00:37:10]>> Yeah.

[00:37:11]>> Just like when you are here with your producer and other people maybe co-anchor you set modalities on how you are going to appear to the Kenyan people.

[00:37:20]>> Mhm.

[00:37:21]>> You may actually be be opposed to the kind of clothes you should wear.

[00:37:25]>> Mhm. But because of the collective responsibility, you voice it internally. You come to a conclusion, then you cannot come on air to say I was forced to wear this tie.

[00:37:38]>> So we used to meet and have robust discussions about many policies and I could give my voice, some would be taken, some would not be taken. And I don't think it would have been very polite and mature for me as a leader to then come out and say the same things I was supposed to internally to say them externally.

[00:38:02]>> Mhm.

[00:38:02]>> And that is the reason why I appreciate the fact that now I am a free. I am not bowed by the team responsibility.

[00:38:11]So I I I may not then go against any team modality to point out things. And I want to there is one thing that happened after the protest of 2024 and I don't want to go to reveal to go deep into many things but I'll say just one.

[00:38:30]So we met around that time remember we cut off the budget in terms of revenue.

[00:38:35]>> Yeah.

[00:38:36]>> But we also cutting in terms of expenditure.

[00:38:39]So we met in a very high ranking meeting and that time there were 46,000 JSS in turns.

[00:38:46]>> Mhm. who we were to put in money for them to be confirmed into permanent and punishable terms.

[00:38:54]Upon meeting, some leaders suggested that since these are the same people who are in the streets, we should knock off that budget of confirming them to permanent and pensionable. And I sued my groud and I said this can't happen because precisely the reason they were in the streets is because they don't have quality jobs. So some of these things and many more we could argue internally but I don't think it was very tidy for anyone then to come out that time and say >> in those internal conversations um was the issue of G2G ever discussed >> never ever ever >> nobody saw anything wrong with >> in the meetings that I attended >> remember in the budget committee we had nothing to do with G2G >> even in your parliamentary group meetings I mean your national assembly and you >> I don't remember anywhere that it needed my very close input that it actually came unless I have forgotten but I don't remember >> I'm asking that because if you may recall um in the year 2023 the late former prime ministering spoke against G2J >> um of course there are those that were in government that came out and and condemned the statements that he had made nobody You ever saw any sense in the questions being raised or to even go and find out what's the truth?

[00:40:19]>> Do you want to know the truth after that?

[00:40:21]>> Go ahead.

[00:40:24]I want you to do some literal homework.

[00:40:28]You check the companies that were under G2G >> up until the protests of 2024.

[00:40:34]>> Mhm.

[00:40:35]>> And then you check the companies that were added after the protests and after the current hardship. Then you realize why that discussion never progressed even from the voices that that area had them. The hardship was beyond political.

[00:40:52]It was it is also in G2G. You al you will also find companies at the G2G that belongs to the other side of the handshake. They were incorporated as a political settlement after the protests.

[00:41:07]And that is why I find sometimes us as leaders being very very very insensitive.

[00:41:15]The issues that Kenyans raised, they were put in the shelf.

[00:41:20]The political elite went into boardrooms, cut deals and that was it. So that's the homework I have given you. Please once you find out I request you happily air to to the viewers on the companies that are adding and the owners of those companies >> that's a lot of homework when the teacher is present because if you to go back to the conversations around G2G and the arrangement the it was said that um the IOC's the international companies were free to nominate their local OMC's, local oil marketing companies and they appointed Gulf Energy, Galana and Orics. That's what we knew.

[00:42:11]>> Okay, go ahead. Which other companies are involved?

[00:42:14]>> No, you tell me because you're saying that this changed.

[00:42:16]>> You seem to have even so much information.

[00:42:18]>> No, no, no. This is what we know because we covered it.

[00:42:22]>> Some Yeah.

[00:42:23]>> That's what you hear.

[00:42:24]>> Mhm.

[00:42:25]>> Because the person telling you is the beneficiary.

[00:42:30]some we I mean we have interacted and you know that I rarely say anything that I cannot defend during daylight.

[00:42:40]>> Mhm.

[00:42:42]>> I want to repeat for avoidance of doubt.

[00:42:45]G2G is pure grade one political patronage and the leadership of this country benefits directly from G2G.

[00:42:57]the leadership owns a company or what?

[00:43:00]>> You do your homework. I have seen you have done enough. I know you know what you even asking.

[00:43:05]>> No, I don't know. [laughter] I'm asking you questions >> and you provide the answers. But but then so is there a solution? Because parliament is a house of representatives of the people. Is there a solution through parliament >> for the economy or oil >> on this on this? If if G2G is political patronage that's taking advantage of Kenyans >> pure. So what is the solution through parliament?

[00:43:29]>> We'll do what we might we we should as individual members to call for a probe and to also compel the government to open up the sector to real market dynamics.

[00:43:41]Remember the reason why markets exist is to give the consumer the best deal.

[00:43:47]>> Yeah.

[00:43:48]>> When you close the market and the dealers in there, it means there is no competition. It means the end user will always be taken advantage of. But in terms of the fuel prices, parliament has a field day to um project to Kenyans that we are real representatives of the people. And I call upon parliament where I sit that yes I know the house has been reduced to phone calls but on such a matter we must redeem ourselves.

[00:44:27]>> Mhm.

[00:44:28]>> We must do the right thing and it's not just a matter of following the deno's proposals. Let all the other members of parliament come up with their own proposals. Let's go with the best that actually puts Kenyans in a good shape.

[00:44:42]If you are to open up the G2G arrangement to open and international oil marketing, I mean all importation, how do you do that knowing to other there's a contract we are told signed that should should run up until the first quarter of 2028.

[00:44:59]>> So Sam, should we then be bowed [music] by an illegal contract which we know is basically an instrument an instrument of patronage or just rectify the wrong and do the right thing? you say it's illegal >> by all the definitions in terms of the patronage involved. Would you call that a Kenyan oriented deal?

[00:45:21]>> Even when it's um it has ramifications if you pull out with foreign entities.

[00:45:28]>> Sam, we just have to do the right thing.

[00:45:30]We cannot be Kenyans cannot continue to be blackmailed in. So I'm asking what is the process towards that because every time you ask you're told that if I mean you were in this country in April or was it March when people are arrested for importing oil through an arrangement that is no G2G >> we are told that there are closes in there that require that the only oil coming into the country is through that arrangement appearing that there would be consequences if we went against that.

[00:45:57]So what is the process like that parliament can actually see us opening up that system?

[00:46:03]>> Before I answer that question about uh parliament and what it can do in terms of G2G. So you believe the oil Kenyans are consuming now is from Saudi Arabia, from Saudi Aramco from G2G.

[00:46:16]>> You tell me where is he from? I'm asking as a Kenyan because you give us here fuel which has fivefold sulfur level and you tell us it is from the same arrangement.

[00:46:32]Do you think Kenyans can take that?

[00:46:35]>> So where is they coming from? Is there a way of establishing that anyway?

[00:46:39]>> There are many ways of establishing >> y >> um I think I've said enough on that. Let me go to [laughter] I don't want to repeat myself and over and over.

[00:46:50]>> We're closing on that because honestly if you sit here and tell us what the problem is.

[00:46:55]>> Yes.

[00:46:55]>> What are Kenyans supposed to do? They don't sit in parliament.

[00:46:58]>> Exactly.

[00:47:00]There is G2G that's an elephant by itself. I am I'm first handling some part of the oil because the holistic discussion is oil.

[00:47:08]>> Yeah.

[00:47:09]>> I know there is an elephant in G2G.

[00:47:11]>> Mhm. I have not yet started um collaborating the process on how to deal with it.

[00:47:19]>> I know the the breath and the generality of it.

[00:47:22]>> Yeah, >> there is fuel prices.

[00:47:24]>> Mhm.

[00:47:25]>> There is a credible proposal.

[00:47:27]>> So what I can request you so that I also don't appear to to to to put the cut before the horse. I know there is a problem. There is a committee in parliament that deals with energy.

[00:47:42]>> I'll see what to do as a private member in collaboration with that committee.

[00:47:46]Hopefully uh we give Kenyans justice.

[00:47:49]>> Okay.

[00:47:51]>> I see what you did there. But um let's move on a little bit.

[00:47:55]>> But I've been very generous with information [laughter] s.

[00:47:58]>> Okay. [gasps] >> Now um if you remember the data that we showed there and you said this is not the actual budget. We were we heading towards 4.8 trillion shillings. Going by the trend, it is likely that we'll be past 5 trillion by the end of the financial year, which is which we learn in June 2027, a few months to the election.

[00:48:19]>> But then there is so much that you have to pay for and you [clears throat] use the figure of I think 72% of what you collect is going to servicing debt. What do you think would be the solution?

[00:48:33]Because if you look at this social services, education, health, they're becoming quite expensive.

[00:48:39]>> Precisely.

[00:48:40]>> If it's about revenue collection, Kenyans are feeling stretched.

[00:48:44]>> Mhm.

[00:48:44]>> The the net uh the net tax net >> is not as wide as you'd expect.

[00:48:52]>> But even the Kenyans that you want to tax continuously, they have less and less income and disposable income.

[00:48:59]>> How do you suggest we maneuver this situation? because we find ourselves trapped by debt.

[00:49:05]>> Allow me so that I come zeroing in into what I think we should do to just say this for Kenyans to appreciate where we are and where we've been.

[00:49:14]>> Mhm.

[00:49:14]>> Within a minute 2020 2002 the debt in Kenya was 600 billion.

[00:49:23]um our collection in terms of revenue because those things revenue and debt is something that should draw the same graph.

[00:49:31]>> So let me start again 202 president Kbake took takes over I think in 2003 the debt in Kenya was 600 billion and the collections ordinary revenue was 200 billion.

[00:49:46]>> Mhm.

[00:49:46]>> President Kbaki goes for 10 years our debt was 1.7 to 1.8 8 trillion but our revenue was around 850 billion to a trillion.

[00:49:58]>> So uh the debt grows threefold the revenue grows fivefold uh more around fivefold from 2023 coming to 202.

[00:50:12]>> Mhm.

[00:50:13]>> The debt grows from 1 >> mean 2013 to 2012.

[00:50:15]>> Sorry. Yes. Thank you for that correction. From 2013 >> to 2022.

[00:50:20]>> Yep. the debt grows to 8.7 trillion right but our revenues grows to below 2 trillion Kenya ceilings and I was part of the people who thought that we would come and bite the bullet and at least try to climb lower in terms of debt to GDP ratio and we tried in the first year if you check in terms of debt to GDP ratio there was goodwill to do the right thing around that time now as I talked to you Sam the debt in Kenya is 13 trillion but our revenues this year will be 2.4 trillion so our debt has grown by 50% so far because around 4 something trillion >> y h our revenues have grown by less by around 20%.

[00:51:11]So the problem is dire. What do we do?

[00:51:15]You the reason I gave that trade is if you look again at the economic growth in those three parameters and those three periods you realize one thing and I'll give up to three years. So that I close in >> because these things cannot be done in isolation. The first three years of from 2003 in dollar terms the economy grew by 36%.

[00:51:38]So you see there is a correlation.

[00:51:41]The first three years from 2013 in dollar terms the economy grew by 21%.

[00:51:48]The first three years from 2022 the economy have has grown by 14.7% in dollar terms. So it shows you one thing.

[00:51:59]>> Mhm. As we talk about debt, we also talking about collections because you take debt, you put in deficit financing or you take up deficit financing to fill up for what you do not have.

[00:52:16]>> Mhm.

[00:52:17]>> So we should look at why is it that we do not have what we should have >> and my answer is very broad. It is about how is the economy fairing. M >> so the number one thing we have to do is that we have to holistically deliberately look at areas to grow the economy. I know that will take too long.

[00:52:36]>> Mhm.

[00:52:37]>> Second thing we must audit our debts.

[00:52:41]This has been a song forever but we never do. Kenyans probably to a large extent they are paying for debts that they never benefited from. It is time that we audit all our debts. With this aim, Kenyans cannot continue to bear the load of money that was stolen or is being stolen. So once we audited the debt and we realize there is two trillion Kenya ceilings that never followed the law that never came to the consolidated fund, we have to bite the bullet and refuse >> Mhm.

[00:53:16]>> to be part and parcel of those debts.

[00:53:19]The third thing >> y >> is that and this is why I was talking agre and when we were talking about patronage in true from where I sit grow the economy holistically make the economy more complex by not just depending on the traditional sectors agriculture and stories and stories open up our economy to more things but we also have a silver bullet in oil and minerals.

[00:53:50]>> Mhm.

[00:53:51]>> Those are things that can bail us out in a big way. And I feel bad some that if we again put in self-interest and patronage in those two elements, then even the person who comes in in 2027 will be handed over a steel seat.

[00:54:16]you try to be flexible in terms of revenue raising measures, >> you'll be you'll be doomed.

[00:54:22]>> And since we have an option that there is something we can do, especially on those three on the last part, >> yeah, >> let's try to start doing the right thing on that parameter.

[00:54:33]>> How would you suggest we audit the debts?

[00:54:36]>> The auditor general, we have already the auditor general. It's simple. The debt has a source.

[00:54:43]According to our PFM act, you should only borrow for you know what?

[00:54:51]>> Development.

[00:54:51]>> Development.

[00:54:52]>> M.

[00:54:53]>> Is there a thing easier than that? It's just tracing. This money has come in.

[00:54:59]Where did it go?

[00:55:03]Let's talk about the how when we are in the field doing it. M >> and I'm saying this because I have tried a little bit to do some of those things.

[00:55:11]Kenyans would be shocked that there are some debts that we took. Money went into personal accounts.

[00:55:18]>> Is that a likelihood during the leadership of the current administration?

[00:55:24]>> It is difficult to provide a solution for the problem you created.

[00:55:30]>> What do you mean that?

[00:55:33]the bigger uptake of death in Kenya in terms of percentage and aggregate.

[00:55:39]Kbaka was lower.

[00:55:42]The other term President Uru Kata accelerated now we have not accelerated.

[00:55:51]We have brown it out.

[00:55:53]>> So let me ask the question again. Is it a possibility that u the debt that has been accumulated these current administration may have gone to personal pockets?

[00:56:06]>> Audit should show us that. But I believe there should be those kind of elements.

[00:56:11]I believe so.

[00:56:13]>> Yet part of that is allowed by parliament through deficits declared and intentions of borrowing both domestically and externally approved.

[00:56:22]Parliament approves block figures. If it does not approve, for example, the country may be going to the market next week to take up some domestic debt.

[00:56:33]That's part of the block figure already passed by parliament. That is the predicament.

[00:56:39]The issue the does it find any control on the side of national treasury? the national the the whole responsibility lies with the national treasury and Kenyans should appreciate this because and I'm not trying to stand up and defend my colleagues parliament is parliament we all have what we have to do in terms of representation oversight and the rest the republic of Kenya is very resourced by personnel and departments there is a whole full-fledged departments that deals with debt alone >> it has more personnel than all the members of parliament.

[00:57:15]You get what I mean?

[00:57:17]>> Their work when they wake up in the morning is about debt. So there is something we should do and we must do.

[00:57:22]>> So again the question if you declare if you approve the proposed deficit of 1.1 trillion shillings.

[00:57:28]>> Yeah.

[00:57:29]>> Can national treasury borrow up to 1.3 trillion shillings without approval of parliament?

[00:57:33]>> I saw that I think last financial year >> and there are no consequences.

[00:57:38]>> Um I don't think they were dire enough.

[00:57:42]It's just an appearance. You explain you you go around about your business and let's let's not cheat ourselves here.

[00:57:49]Sam I'm a member of parliament. We'll be going to parliament on Tuesday. Is that so? You are likely to hear stories. Oh, you wrote this to the speaker to reopen parliament. Leaders should do that.

[00:58:00]Fine. Let me ask you this question as a as a as a Kenyan. We are in parliament where the majority side the government joined opposition and the opposition joined government. So who is now speaking alternatively?

[00:58:16]Alternatively meaning you'll have the min the majority leadership talking the same choir with the minority leadership.

[00:58:24]In parliament the rules are give this person 30 minutes being a leader >> the other one 30 minutes. So in that kind of a situation that is why beyond the things that we are doing in parliament we also come here to explain to Kenyans okay >> so that the pressure is from all directions. Okay I hear you. So finally for today um so the economic survey tells us that our economy is 17.6 trillion shillings as of December last year. The budget estimates presented to the house you sit in say that the economy is 20.8 trillion shillings. Why this difference?

[00:59:03]>> They are you sure? There has always been those kind of discrepancies ever since.

[00:59:08]And I have not I I know the current um GDP >> the one the current budget is working on the next one.

[00:59:17]>> Mhm.

[00:59:17]>> I mean the budget starting from July >> Yeah.

[00:59:19]>> is around 20.8 trillion Kenya shieldings.

[00:59:22]>> Yeah.

[00:59:23]>> But remember I would need to check whether one is nominal and the other one real. They describe it as national GDP.

[00:59:31]>> Yes, there could be nomino. There could be real nomino has maybe has not deflated inflation. I need to look at that. But do you have some minute? I say what I'm want to say.

[00:59:43]>> Go ahead.

[00:59:45]the what I have noted also some and I'm saying this with all the responsibility of also me being a leader is that beyond what you've read we saw the IMF yesterday >> Mhm. They released the African countries per GD in terms of GDP in in Africa per country and our country Kenya has slid to number seven of course behind South Africa, Egypt, um, Nigeria, Morocco, Algeria and now Agola and of course because you know the reason why Ethiopia's lead back in 2023 it was because of the reset of their currency. It is also a very probable candidate to do very well.

[01:00:36]I just want to call upon all of us some myself included as a leader.

[01:00:42]>> Mhm.

[01:00:43]>> As the leadership of Kenya, let us know that rhetoric has its place but you can never replace rhetoric with figures and growth. And this is the reason Kenya last year after all the hulaaloo and after all the political gatherings and after all the narrative from government the economy of Kenya has been the giant of the region it grew by 4.6% 6% last year. That's why it has slid in all our regional counterparts. We were last except maybe one one very small country.

[01:01:26]Tanzania with elections grew by around 6%.

[01:01:30]Tan Uganda with elections grew by 6.3 to 6.7%.

[01:01:36]Ethiopia grew by 6.5%.

[01:01:41]Listen to this. Rada grew by 9.4%.

[01:01:46]In fact, the last quarter of 2024, Roa grew by double digits. What am I trying to say?

[01:01:52]>> Mhm.

[01:01:53]>> There is what we can constantly sell to the Kenyan people. But as leadership when Kenya's people tell us this is not working and we insist this is working we must always know the intelligence of the Kenyan people should supersede us because the figures are siding with what Kenyans are saying. It is time that as leadership we lock ourselves in and do our work.

[01:02:19]>> Mhm.

[01:02:19]>> Instead of reminding Kenyans every day about our work, it is time to do it. And you know how the economies work s the reason why you there is something called convergence in economics.

[01:02:31]>> Mhm.

[01:02:32]>> Something called absolute convergence says this that all developing countries ultimately catch up with the developed ones paribas holding all other factors constant.

[01:02:50]However, if you look at a country like the US, it has always sustained the lead.

[01:02:58]>> Why? Because as the economies converge using the traditional parameters, the economy adopts more technology and diverges in terms of technology. So the economy remains dominant.

[01:03:11]>> Okay.

[01:03:11]>> So Kenya has been a leading economy in the region. For us to remain dominant, we must know that if we allow our regional economies to keep on converging, converging is growing higher than us. Within a matter of time, we will be at par. And I don't think Kenya starts in that kind of pedestal.

[01:03:32]>> Okay?

[01:03:32]>> We deserve more. We have more. We can do more.

[01:03:35]>> Okay. All right. Now, I want us to take a look at the feedback that has come to us. Citizen TV Kenya Citizen Tonight and you're saying that we've always known Kenya doesn't produce oil yet every fuel crisis catches us unprepared. Why not invest aggressively in electric vehicles and nationwide solar less fuel dependency, cleaner energy and carbon credit income? Okay, Karini Jared, you're saying Dean Doro is quite evasive. Talking about 100 billion shillings political money, G2G being grade one political patronage, Trana oil fields being taken over. It appears this country is rotten top down. God have mercy on us Kenyans. You can take note and see what you want to respond to.

[01:04:23]San, how do you propose the way to deal with those MPs who get their pockets and stomachs fattened before voting in parliament contrary to Wanjiko's vote particularly on finance bill?

[01:04:37]>> Okay.

[01:04:37]>> Okay. Mark Makura, you're saying you keep being reminded you are the chair of the budget because of the good work that you did. It's good to point out the hits and to own up. I really admire the brilliance of Dean Doro. Uh, General OGW Dindi served in government and chaired the budget committee where where you had direct influence over fiscal priorities and oversight the issues you are criticizing today. Where was this urgency and opposition when you were in opposition to act? What specific measures did you push?

[01:05:12]>> Okay. and Coloss which is saying whichever side of the political divide you are the kind of things Dero is saying should scare you in your own behalf and on behalf of your children and the next generation >> yeah I don't know what your take is yes >> I'll be precise I agree with I may not mention the names I didn't capture but I captured the content >> the first person was about long-term and I agree what we should be doing in terms of um even dealing with future demand of fuel because the demand for fuel will continue to be there. Yes, we will become an oil producer but 20,000 barrels a day is not much. So we must look inward and also outward in terms of solutions.

[01:06:01]>> My proposal would be simple some one in terms of medium and long. We must be deliberate in terms of EVs, very deliberate. And Kenya being the kind of economy that is well positioned geographically >> and having respect and especially in the past in terms of what we are. We would be we should be now quoting for example one Chinese company an EV producer to come set up set up base in Kenya, a Japanese one, an American one and of course a a European one and especially to take care of the region. Morocco are now doing it. If you look at the complexity of the Moroccan economy, complex complexity here meaning the the kind of products they produce and the technology embedded in those products.

[01:06:51]You realize that Morocco the reason why it is now growing and solidifying is because their auto industry is doing very well and they are leveraging on their proximity.

[01:07:03]>> We also have that proximity in terms of the the the African market. Second thing is about the second brother of mine about being evasive. I own up.

[01:07:16]>> Mhm.

[01:07:16]>> I didn't want to be sensational. What I've said I'm sure Kenyans have listened. They have taken note in terms of G2G in terms of true in terms of political patronage. Looking at the kind of comments Kenyans know what I'm talking about. only that I didn't want to reduce this show into name calling and and and >> the way to in terms of dealing with corruption in parliament it's just basically holding all of us accountable and the beauty is that in parliament >> the kind of vote that happens on this kind of an important thing is public so we make it public you remember the way like we did BBI you go on the microphone.

[01:08:03]>> Yeah, >> we do that so that the people from the place you represent can actually see whether you are reading their mood.

[01:08:12]>> Mhm.

[01:08:13]>> Uh for I knew this would come up and I am glad you are budget chair. I get that everywhere and I am glad as I said and I don't want to run away from responsibility.

[01:08:27]Budget committee deals with expenditure.

[01:08:30]I have never seen one place anyone talking ill about the work of budget committee whether I was chairman when I was chairman or even now because as you know we all have to expend.

[01:08:43]>> Mhm.

[01:08:44]>> There is usually no problem with expendedure. I >> I think they're more of talking about it more of the access that you had to power to to the powers that be.

[01:08:52]>> Okay.

[01:08:52]>> And I had you are not as vocal as you are today. I said it. I just thought it is some of these things I used to raise them internally as I said >> and I think that's the polite way.

[01:09:06]>> And by the way, >> did you ever get any response on some of those issues?

[01:09:09]>> Some we handled them there and then like JJ [music] says, I stood my ground and I I I stood my ground. I had met the officials and I saw there was a real need. So some you could stand your ground, others you could seed. But I don't think it was very good tidy for me then to come out and then >> appear to be better than all other people.

[01:09:32]>> And by the way that's the reason even politically.

[01:09:34]>> Mhm.

[01:09:35]>> You see me having the kind of stance that I have. If I belong to dominancy in terms of teams, these kind of things I'm raising, I would have raised them today.

[01:09:45]People would think is because he's there or there are things to me that are more important for the country than my ambition as a leader in terms of political innings. M >> as I go to finish again it was about budget committee which I own up for the work that we did and the fact that I had explained there is finance committee that deals with taxes there is debt committee that deals with debt. We used to work as a team at least now I can voice my opinions freely >> okay >> without the responsibility of being part of the team. You you've spoken about political innings. Do you have any? Now >> we've been in this discussion talking about very important things.

[01:10:30]>> Yes. You mentioned it. I didn't.

[01:10:33]>> This is my political leaning.

[01:10:35]>> Which one?

[01:10:36]>> Studying with the Kenyan people where it matters most.

[01:10:38]>> Do you have any political ambitions outside of Kharo?

[01:10:42]>> Some.

[01:10:42]>> Yeah.

[01:10:43]>> Citizen TV is here today and next month and the other time. We can talk about that next time.

[01:10:47]>> Do you have any today?

[01:10:50]>> I'm already working as a member of parliament. We've been executing all this with the powers I have.

[01:10:54]>> Yeah.

[01:10:54]>> As member of parliament for >> so come 2027 will you be seeking any political office?

[01:10:58]>> We'll talk about that. There is so much time between now and then.

[01:11:01]>> Okay.

[01:11:01]>> Yeah.

[01:11:04]For making it time for us of this conversation. Of course it continues. A lot of feedback coming in on X platform and social media platforms and including WhatsApp on the messages that you're sending us. Do keep on with the conversation. We understand that tomorrow there will be a press conference from State House Mombasa. the president will be addressing the [music] nation. So we wait to hear what he has to say. Will it be about the fuel situation that we have in the country or what else will it be about? We wait to hear. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

[01:11:33]>> See you again some other time and apologies that we had to make time for this and [music] that's why we didn't have news gang but we will be there come next week. Bye for now.

[01:11:45]Heat.

[01:11:49][music] HEAT.