Dhamma Discussion, Thu 21st, May 2026 Afternoon

Added: 2026-05-23

[00:00:12]Anyway, in brief J Eve anyone in brief when talking about three mana sakaras which is talking about mana sakara cheta seeker which it arises with every cheta. That's all. So, mana sakara rises tends to the object.

[00:00:31]And it even arises with the first cheta in the sense door process still just performing its function of attending to the object.

[00:00:44]It also arises with the cheta before the javana chetas before the kusala nakusala chetas just attending to the object. That's all.

[00:00:56]And attention is different than focus.

[00:00:59]Could you?

[00:01:04]And and that's different not to be confused with the ekaggata the the concentration the focus on the object. So, all these cheta seekers have their distinct function and they're necessary with each cheta just to get that bit by bit more firmly established.

[00:01:33]Yes, it's before because of ekaggata cheta seeker ekaggata cheta seeker that there is focusing on one object. It's the reason only one object can be experienced.

[00:01:46]So, it always focuses or pinpoints on one object different from mana sakara which attends like now conventionally we say, "Oh, I'm not attending to what you're saying. I'm attending to something else."

[00:02:01]But actually, there's attending at each moment, just like there's sanna marking and remembering at each moment. And the nimitta is many, many moments.

[00:02:14]And then there is the the photocopy, use that analogy, of the nimitta, which is well, the perfect replica before there is box.

[00:02:28]So, the color, the visible object, that is attended to and experienced by the different cheetas in the eye door process, falls away, but it's the object of the cheetas in the first mind door process attending to that replica of the visible object. There's no more visible object, but it's exact photocopy, its replica, is experienced by the first set of mind door cheetas.

[00:03:03]Anicca, anatta.

[00:03:05]And by nimitta. And it is just one micro moment, of course, of visible data or light or color.

[00:03:15]And that that is experienced at a time. When we say one object at a time, I mean, that is what is meant, one arammana at a time. Arammana, one speck of color or light.

[00:03:30]And that's why for that visible object to be known, there have to be there has to be the experience of it many, many times.

[00:03:53]It's there, manasikara. now?

[00:03:59]What manasikara arises with seeing?

[00:04:04]Manasikara arises with the the cheetah uh which experiences visible data. The the chakavinyana.

[00:04:18]What kind of manasikara arises with the chakuvinyana?

[00:04:23]At the moment of seeing it is kriya.

[00:04:27]It has to be kriya because the moment of seeing is kriya.

[00:04:30]>> About the three kinds of manasikara.

[00:04:35]What kind is there?

[00:04:37]With >> With seeing consciousness, chakuvinyana.

[00:04:41]Chakuvinyana is uh it has to be a kriya manasikara. Am I not Vipaka. Of seeing is Vipaka, yeah.

[00:04:51]>> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I was speaking of okay.

[00:04:54]>> Aramana. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[00:04:58]Precisely.

[00:05:00]I lost the thread so easily.

[00:05:04]And what about sampaticchana? What kind of manasikara? It has to be vipaka.

[00:05:11]Sampaticchana.

[00:05:13]>> Among the three. And the santirana and the votthapana.

[00:05:18]The three kinds of manasikara that we discussed. So the first was the arammana patipadika manasikara and then the vithi patipadika manasikara and the javana patipadika. So we are still with arammana patipati manasikara.

[00:05:38]And only after votthapana is the Pancha Dvarana.

[00:05:49]Pancha Dvara Ajana also is it not?

[00:05:53]Before the Javan Cetas.

[00:05:57]You're shaking your head.

[00:05:58]It's a little bit mixed up. [laughter] So, the the first Citta the first Citta in the sense door process is the Pancha Dvara Vajana Citta. Before seeing the the very first Citta. And that is the So, it's a first Citta in the VT process. So, that's the that's the VT Patipadaka Manasikara. Oh, I got the order jump up. Then and then after that you have the Sampaticchana the Santirana and then the Votthapana.

[00:06:32]No, Sampaticchana Votthapana Santirana No, other way around.

[00:06:36]>> Seeing Sampaticchana Saramana Aramana Patipadaka Manasikara and then the Votthapana is the other one. The Javan Patipadaka Manasikara. Okay, and I get the confused with the not the Pancha but um the mind door as determining. I mean, loosely translated the Votthapana is determining.

[00:07:03]So, that's where I got a little bit fuzzy there at that point.

[00:07:12]So, the Mano Dvara Vajana Citta mind door adverting Citta which is the first Citta in the mind door process.

[00:07:21]Javan Patipadaka Manasikara. Yes.

[00:07:24]>> It also has We discussed the other day a Citta can have more than one function like Santirana has more than one function. The Mano Dvara Vajana Citta also has the function of Votthapana.

[00:07:39]Yes.

[00:07:39]>> So, the Votthapana Citta is actually the Mano Dvara Vajana Citta but it's called Votthapana in the sense door process.

[00:07:48]Also arising before the javana cheetahs.

[00:07:51]So, it's also javana patipattika manasikara. It's Now, it's just an kiriya cheetah.

[00:08:01]Indeterminate kiriya cheetah, one kiriya before the javana cheetahs in the sense door or the mind door. Yes, I was going too fast.

[00:08:11]That's where I was in the thinking, and the thinking's always so fast. I need to slow down and just take it to what exactly is the question, cuz I'm jumping ahead already.

[00:08:22]That's why Ajahn said, "Okay, one reality. Which reality shall we discuss?" Yes. Otherwise, it's very easy to get them mixed up.

[00:08:35]Thank you, Kunsang.

[00:08:37]Can be manasikara which arises with vithi patipadika manasikara be kusala?

[00:08:49]Yes.

[00:08:51]No.

[00:08:52]I'm thinking in terms of the javana cheetahs already.

[00:08:57]Vithi patipadika manasikara through the sense door.

[00:09:04]First cheetah in the sense door process.

[00:09:08]No. No.

[00:09:10]Okay.

[00:09:11]Can it be unwholesome?

[00:09:14]No, it's just So, can manasikara which arises with mano dwara vacana be be kusala?

[00:09:24]No, I I should think that that's No.

[00:09:29]It's not kusala. It's not akusala. Why not?

[00:09:35]Well, that's just the first cheetah in the sense door process.

[00:09:44]What is Manodwara Vatthi Chitta?

[00:09:47]>> the mind door there.

[00:09:53]It is Kiriya.

[00:09:57]Yes.

[00:09:57]>> Is that?

[00:09:58]That's why I say it can't be Kusala.

[00:10:00]Kusala is just neutral.

[00:10:02]>> So, Manasikara arises with Manodwara Vatthi Chitta is Savana Patipadaka, but it does not itself be Kusala or Akusala.

[00:10:11]It just arise before Savana.

[00:10:18]This is the way to let go I someone any moment or Adhammas.

[00:10:34]When we talk about Manasikara, we talk about the three kinds of Manasikara.

[00:10:40]But they are all Manasikara.

[00:10:46]Chittasikha arises with each moment of Chitta.

[00:10:51]Arises with Panchadwara Vatthi Chitta as Vithi Patipadaka because it is a first Vithi Chitta that Manasikara does not Manasikara the object before.

[00:11:05]As before, but the object of Bhavanga, but it is a moment.

[00:11:11]It arises and Manasikara with that Chitta which is the first Vithi Chitta.

[00:11:27]Can the first Vithi Chitta be Kusala?

[00:11:31]No, I should think that it's neutral.

[00:11:35]Because the first we teach it that through the sense that is pancha dwara vachana.

[00:11:42]And the first we teach it that through the mind that is mano dwara vachana.

[00:11:46]That's why we have to understand the way it is.

[00:11:54]Even manasikara is different.

[00:12:11]And this is This is These are just the These are the chetasikas which accompany chitta and chitta is not known. It experiences for example, visible data object visible data about her.

[00:12:33]Only at the intellectual level.

[00:12:36]Because seeing sees visible object aramanna.

[00:12:42]And it's only known through the most indirect way. It is not known. It's there all the time.

[00:12:55]No.

[00:12:57]Nothing is known now. It just lent to understand what is there in a moment from moment to moment.

[00:13:05]That there must be conditions for whatever arises and then falls away instantly.

[00:13:11]They were to arise again.

[00:13:15]This is dhamma.

[00:13:17]No wonder at all.

[00:13:19]It is the truth indeed, Ajahn Chah.

[00:13:23]No one there at all.

[00:13:25]And yet on awakening it's there I am, right there. It's here.

[00:13:33]From head to toe.

[00:13:39]Until it appears well with panna. Now we're just talking about it, but a little bit more of firm understanding that even manasikara, when you heard the word vithi patipada manasikara After hearing this, you a little understand little by little what it means. It's just the a one kind of mental factor that attend to the object. And it cannot arise with any other chitta except pancha dwaravajjana chitta because it's the foot or the beginning of the first process of the sense door.

[00:14:23]Like it's understand more and more, but but to understand the the manasikara itself, it's very >> any real foot?

[00:14:35]>> [laughter] >> No, no real foot, but it just used the simile of to to understand that this is the first uh sense door process.

[00:14:50]Usually it means with panna chittasikha.

[00:14:53]The foot.

[00:14:55]The foot of the bed.

[00:14:58]The leg.

[00:14:59]>> [laughter] >> I'm sorry.

[00:15:01]It's It's No, it's just just conventional.

[00:15:06]But it has to understand the the the reality that is that experience which arise with the the chief of the experience of the the reality that that is the chief.

[00:15:18]It's not it's not chitta, it's chittasikha That have a particular function.

[00:15:26]Which uh attend to the to the object. With the first chitta in the sense door process, not the first sense door process because it's any sense door process, right?

[00:15:42]Any sense door process, it's the Not the first sense door process. No.

[00:15:47]>> With the first chitta.

[00:15:48]>> First chitta, yeah. Sorry, thank you.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. Yeah, just made the point.

[00:15:51]>> Is is the first reality first chitta.

[00:15:56]The first chitta of each sense door process.

[00:16:02]>> Any sense door process, yes. Yes.

[00:16:05]>> Only five, not the mind door.

[00:16:13]That I don't have anything to >> [laughter] >> Mhm.

[00:16:28]It's right now.

[00:16:30]Because no one knows.

[00:16:32]>> That's why we talk about it just one reality at a time. Yeah.

[00:16:38]To understand that they are very subtle.

[00:16:42]Yes.

[00:16:45]Can be known but >> Sometimes in light, sometimes in darkness.

[00:16:50]Yes.

[00:16:51]But most of the time in darkness, but not known at all. That's right. The word does not appear as it is at all.

[00:16:59]Yes.

[00:17:00]At all.

[00:17:02]It's the word of atta, but in truth, the word of anatta.

[00:17:10]Yes, thank you.

[00:17:14]Streaming all day because it's not appearing as it is just And there's a clinging and then there's the ignorance that no realization yet.

[00:17:31]That it's not someone or something.

[00:17:34]It's not microphone.

[00:17:36]But it's just hardness that appears but instantly take it as a microphone with the wrong memory.

[00:17:47]But that's far away until wise attention attend to the true characteristic of the object of each doorway.

[00:18:01]And uh ignorance is the condition for birth and rebirth. And Sarah reminded me Sarah reminded me the other day and in Vietnam that everything all every moment is danger.

[00:18:19]But seeing as how paticcasamuppada cannot be reversed and this aggregate is here is every moment is danger save those with sati saddha panna. Other than that it's just accumulating ignorance.

[00:18:39]In the deeper in the deepest sense even those damas even sati now even panna now is dangerous because it's also a conditioned. It also falls away. It's not any refuge.

[00:18:56]Panna cannot accumulate >> accumulate better panna than ignorance for sure. Yes. Yes. But in the end there has to be the letting go of whatever is conditioned.

[00:19:10]Little by little.

[00:19:25]I'll bring up a different topic then.

[00:19:27]Uh, [snorts] in when we were in Vietnam and actually the Vietnamese friends have brought it up more than once about tears.

[00:19:36]And one Vietnamese lady had a long story about tears, tears of unhappiness, tears of joy, tears of understanding.

[00:19:50]And we just came back to seeing now.

[00:19:55]They mentioned in passing the reference from Melinda Panha.

[00:20:01]And it's very very short, so I'll just read it out.

[00:20:05]The king asked, "Venerable Nagasena, those who weep on the death of a mother and those who weep with affection for the Dhamma, for whom of these two weeping are the tears a medicine and for whom are the tears not a medicine?"

[00:20:20]"The tears of one, your majesty, are hot and stained with lust, anger, and delusion. And the tears of the other are cool and unstained with rapture and joy.

[00:20:33]That which is cool, your majesty, is majesty is a medicine. That That which is hot is not a medicine."

[00:20:41]"You're clever clever Venerable Nagasena." So, we all know when weeping with affection and uh lots of emotion, we know it's just a mass of lust, anger, and delusion.

[00:20:58]When the tears are with um uh moments of understanding with joy, then it's cool.

[00:21:08]But usually we take what is hot for being cool. We think when we're in India and feel so emotional at the at the holy places or when we meet a John and feel full of emotion and there are tears rolling down the face.

[00:21:28]It's taken for being kusala and cool, but actually only understanding can know at this moment or any moment. But I think this is what they were referring to. That very so easy to take the akusala for the kusala and assume they are tears of wholesome joy and understanding when so many dammas are mixed up together.

[00:21:59]What's the description of the kusala mind?

[00:22:03]Yes.

[00:22:04]The kusala um The tears of the other are cool and unstained with rapture and joy. That which is cool, your majesty, is a medicine.

[00:22:21]That which is hot is not a medicine. So when there is no akusala, then cool and unstained, unstained by akusala, and with joy. So if there is when we are emotional on this happiness and sadness and it's not cool with joy and uh unstained.

[00:22:48]Anyway, just different dammas, that's all.

[00:22:50]Hot and cool.

[00:22:54]Sometimes hot and sometimes cool all day. Yes, that's right. No matter what we're talking about like even now can listening to the Dhamma often cool.

[00:23:04]>> Yes, but it's just the story of tears, but it's the reality of tears. See?

[00:23:13]Are there references in the suttas to people weeping with joy at understanding the Dhamma? I wonder.

[00:23:25]Do we call that weeping?

[00:23:28]I think this is the only reference I know. Tears may not be weeping, right? But the question is Ajahn's question is what are the tears? So, these are rupas conditioned by chetas.

[00:23:41]But to be tears it has to have uh the rupas.

[00:23:48]The heat, hardness.

[00:23:52]When it's creamed down, if understanding understand that there's a heat there, there's a hardness there.

[00:24:00]Hardness there, which is not taken as tears or my tears. It's just the reality that happened like very tiny little moment.

[00:24:12]Not to my or to anyone, but it's to understanding. Just different rupas. Yeah. Conditioned in different ways because actually it's not just by the cheta, but also by temperature.

[00:24:27]>> Yeah, like you said it's smoke that coming It's smoke coming. Yes. Or sometimes like Ajahn will have tear in her eye from because of eye problem.

[00:24:40]>> Yeah. By temperature or karma or yes.

[00:24:44]Just different rupas, that's all.

[00:24:53]But it's your my tear.

[00:24:56]My tear.

[00:24:58]Uh Without understanding, it's my tears.

[00:25:04]But in fact, it's not. It's just reality.

[00:25:06]>> Her tears. Or her tears.

[00:25:11]I cry.

[00:25:14]That's another reality.

[00:26:12]We discussed a lot about chanda in Vietnam. So, chanda now, what is the chanda for?

[00:26:21]Interesting.

[00:26:25]Anyone?

[00:26:27]Interest interest in the object.

[00:26:30]Yes, in the object. And there's we discussed how there's interest chanda at most moments, not with the a hetu cittas like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, sampaticchana, santirana, and not at moments of ignorance, moha moha chetas without attachment or aversion because at those moments just not knowing, no interest in the object.

[00:27:00]But at every moment of attachment, there's interest in the object. At every moment of aversion, strong anger, a lot of interest in the object. And at every moment of kusala, there's interest in the object, any kind of kusala.

[00:27:20]What about in deep sleep, bhavanga chetas?

[00:27:38]If it's the ahechuka bhavanga chetas like in the woeful planes, like the animal planes, no.

[00:27:48]But if it's the sobana chetas that are arising with the kusala vipaka, then it arises with any sobana chetas, even vipaka chetas, interest in the object unknown.

[00:28:10]So, interest most of the time, most of the day, most of the night, but not at moments of just ignorance.

[00:28:19]Excuse me. You're talking about in interested in the object which is unknown. Chanda chetas, yes.

[00:28:27]>> Which is unknown. Unknown.

[00:28:30]How How come?

[00:28:34]It's experienced by the cheta, but it's unknown to the consciousness of the sense door or consciousness through the mind door.

[00:28:45]Just like sati is arising at those moments guarding from akusala experiencing the same object, but the object's unknown because it doesn't appear through any doorway.

[00:29:04]Just to show how anatta it is like we think or I have an interest in this or that, but nothing to do with the understanding of chanda.

[00:29:22]The object of the bhavanga citta is the same all throughout the life.

[00:29:28]But it's just unknown and there's chanda there. And unknown to the consciousness. Yes. Yes, precisely. The last from Yes. Yes, so it's very subtle and deep indeed.

[00:29:47]Talking about chanda which is >> [snorts] >> chanda in bhavanga citta right?

[00:30:00]Is It's not Chanda in bhavanga cittas is chanda that arises with bhavanga cittas.

[00:30:08]Manasikara arises with bhavanga cittas.

[00:30:12]Sati arises with bhavanga cittas. Chanda >> [clears throat] >> Chanda arise with uh let's say about bhavanga citta.

[00:30:24]At that time is no consciousness because it is the object from the previous life.

[00:30:32]Is it correct?

[00:30:33]>> Do you mean there's no consciousness?

[00:30:39]In the I mean the Uh what's the word?

[00:30:47]object is the the the object in the previous life, which is unknown.

[00:30:54]But, it's a consciousness of that object?

[00:30:59]It is the It is consciousness to that object.

[00:31:04]>> Right. The cheetah is still conscious of the object.

[00:31:08]>> consciousness of which is cheetah to the object. Yes. Okay. Still consciousness of the object.

[00:31:13]>> Okay, then So, it knows J.

[00:31:18]Right.

[00:31:22]Let Let me Let me ask. But, that that cheetah, the bhavanga cheetah, does experience the object.

[00:31:30]So, it's not unknown to the bhavanga cheetah.

[00:31:36]It's unknown to the sense door or mind door processes that where is our consciousness that we know of in this life.

[00:31:47]The bhavanga cheetah itself is unknown to us.

[00:31:53]But, that doesn't mean it's not there.

[00:31:57]And the object of the bhavanga cheetah is known, if you like, to the bhavanga cheetah. Is experienced by the bhavanga cheetah.

[00:32:09]But, both the bhavanga cheetah and its object are not experienced, do not appear to be known.

[00:32:17]Yeah.

[00:32:20]Yeah. And there's no way of knowing what that object is. Whereas, if we talk about the sense door mind door processes in this life, we know that the object of eye consciousness must be visible object.

[00:32:36]But, the same doesn't apply to the bhavanga citta.

[00:32:44]Um I'm in doubt about the gender and the sati when Sara said before. I still cannot figure out what did you mean by that?

[00:33:00]I mean during the bhavanga citta especially. So at this moment is there interest in bhavanga cittas?

[00:33:09]I mean at this moment?

[00:33:12]>> No interest in bhavanga citta, but there there is bhavanga citta. But if there's no interest in bhavanga cittas, why are you asking about bhavanga cittas?

[00:33:22]There must be interest.

[00:33:23]>> Interest in the concept of bhavanga cittas.

[00:33:26]>> Okay, that's what I said, the concept of bhavanga citta. And if it's And when there's doubt, at the moment of doubt, is there any interest at that moment of doubt?

[00:33:37]It is interest in the When there's doubt, no chanda arises because doubt is just with ignorance. So we can see even though moments of kusala interest, moments of akusala interest, and then moments of doubt, no interest.

[00:33:54]So different moments.

[00:33:57]So the The point was that chanda arises with all sobana cittas. Sobana cittas means those cittas that arise with wholesome mental factors, kusala cittas, the kiriya cittas of the arahat some kusala vipaka cittas.

[00:34:21]Seeing is a kusala vipaka citta, but no roots, no wholesome factors. It's not a sobana citta.

[00:34:28]But the bhavanga cittas in this realm can be so bad cheaters.

[00:34:37]So, with wholesome roots If it arises with wholesome roots, then Chanda is there, Sati is there, Hiri is there, Ottappa is there, Saddha is there because they arise with all so bad cheaters. Right.

[00:34:55]And Okay, I think I got it.

[00:34:58]Little by little.

[00:35:00]And to interject here a moment, so this regard they are they are Pandaram.

[00:35:07]Any cheater is Pandara. Any cheater at all. Yes, yes.

[00:35:11]>> Each cheater now is Pandara.

[00:35:14]Whether it's accompanied by Kusala factors or Akusala factors or just the seven cheaters seekers, each cheater is Pandara. Yes, each cheater itself. Yes, pure. The innermost Ayatana. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:35:31]I knew you were going to say that.

[00:35:38]Would anyone at home like to ask anything or bring up any topic?

[00:35:43]Azita or Alberto or anyone?

[00:35:50]Go ahead, Azita.

[00:35:52]Good afternoon, everybody.

[00:35:54]Um it's been quite amazing. I listened this morning and it's con- tinuing on and the discussion seems to focus really on the realities like the cheaters and the cheater seekers. Like this morning it was um uh Manasikara and I can't remember the other one, but it really was brought home to me just how the realities are just these Judas and Judas seekers and the the um the rupa that goes along with them. So, I'm very appreciative of this these discussions. So, thank you. I don't think I have a question at the moment.

[00:36:43]Um maybe I will in a minute.

[00:36:47]But, thank you. It's been quite amazing just having the fact that there's no self brought brought to the foreground cuz there's no self being mentioned in reality.

[00:37:00]So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:37:07]Like to ask a Ceta Chan.

[00:37:09]Is that enough to understand Chanter?

[00:37:15]Oh, no. No, this this um Well, there's 89 Judas and 52 Judas seekers to be understood including all the rupas.

[00:37:27]But, not by me.

[00:37:29]By understanding.

[00:37:31]Can Chanter arise with Jita which is enrooted in the moha?

[00:37:38]Moha molajita?

[00:37:40]No. Why not?

[00:37:42]Because why would there be any um desire for moha? Just moha is just moha.

[00:37:51]It is arises by itself.

[00:37:54]Well, with other Judas Judas seekers, but I don't think it arises with Chanter.

[00:38:00]It does not know anything. So, how can it have Chanter arising with it?

[00:38:06]Exactly. It can't.

[00:38:10]That's why we learn little by little from one Jita to another Jita. How many Judas seekers arises with just that particular one?

[00:38:19]For example, Chanter will never arise with moha mulacitta.

[00:38:26]Two kinds.

[00:38:28]No chanda at all.

[00:38:30]Because it cannot understand anything.

[00:38:33]It does not know anything.

[00:38:37]Is there moha mulacittana?

[00:38:41]Um uh well, I I don't know for sure, but I imagine there is.

[00:38:49]When there's no lobha, no dosa.

[00:38:52]And citta is akusala because of avijja, ignorant.

[00:38:57]Arising with that citta.

[00:38:59]Right. No chanda.

[00:39:02]That's why we learn how many cittas do not arise with chanda.

[00:39:10]And if there's any doubt or hesitation now, for sure that is moha.

[00:39:16]Just not knowing.

[00:39:17]Just not knowing, yes, right.

[00:39:20]Right.

[00:39:23]Yeah, there's a lot to know um of the of the realities.

[00:39:32]But it can only be known little by little.

[00:39:38]Does chanda arise with mano dvaravajjana citta?

[00:39:42]Mano dvara I I don't think so. I think it That's the mind door. I I don't think so. I think it only arises with either kusala or akusala.

[00:39:59]That's why we learn more to understand more about even one cetasika.

[00:40:04]Why can't it arise in such citta together with that particular one? For example, moha no doubt now.

[00:40:14]No doubt.

[00:40:15]>> [laughter] >> And it can't with ahetuka chetas, chetas which have no roots, no wholesome or unwholesome roots. So, manodvara vacana citta, does it have any wholesome or unwholesome roots?

[00:40:38]No, I don't think so. And in fact, sakiriya citta, no. It's sakiriya. So, ahetuka ahetuka cittas uh without roots.

[00:40:50]But um I'm a little unclear. I remember Yeah, I haven't done very much study of the realities in the last like book study in the last few months. I've been busy doing other things.

[00:41:06]Um so, can you explain the ahetuka cittas to me, please?

[00:41:14]So, the 10 five pairs seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching ahetuka, they just arise with the seven citta sekha, seven universal citta sekhas, right? Yes. kusala, no akusala citta sekhas.

[00:41:35]Right.

[00:41:35]>> So, those are 10.

[00:41:37]The pancadvara vacana citta we which we've been discussing quite a lot, the first citta in the sense door, any sense door process, Mhm.

[00:41:50]kiriya citta, no roots, no wholesome, kusala or akusala factors arising with it. So, it's also ahetuka.

[00:42:02]The sampaticchana, santirana, like the seeing, hearing, etc., even though more citta sekhas arise with them. They are still a hetuka vipaka chetas.

[00:42:17]So, chanda can't can't arise with them either. So, that's 10 11 12 13. Actually, three kinds of santirana, but anyway, um no chanda arises. They are hetuka.

[00:42:35]The votthapana cheta is actually the same as the mano dwara vajjana cheta.

[00:42:42]So, it's also a hetuka kiriya cheta. So, no chanda at that moment. No wise or unwise attention. No kusala, no akusala.

[00:42:53]Uh so and then when it comes to tad arammana, more complicated because it can be they can be conditioned by um They can be a hetuka vipaka chetas.

[00:43:13]Santirana then performs a function, or they can be with wholesome roots. So, if they are hetuka, then same.

[00:43:22]So, it's it's kind of complicated.

[00:43:25]>> Sayadaw. What was that word tad arammana?

[00:43:28]>> Tad arammana, the two chetas that can arise at the end of a sense door process.

[00:43:34]Uh yes, I've got that. But actually, they are performed either by santirana cheta if they when they arise with no roots, or they are performed by maha vipaka kusala chetas, then they are with roots.

[00:43:58]So, one has to just consider when there are any wholesome or unwholesome roots.

[00:44:04]But vanga chetas that we were talking about before with um when discussing chanda.

[00:44:11]Bhavanga cittas, if they are in a woeful plane, the result of akusala karma, when it's the result of akusala karma, they are always ahetuka, always rootless.

[00:44:23]So, that's why in a woeful plane, the bhavanga cittas can never arise with chanda, can never arise with kusala or akusala mental factors because they're always ahetuka.

[00:44:37]When they are the result of kusala karma, like in a human realm, it depends if the birth is with two roots, three roots, or no roots.

[00:44:52]If it's with two or three roots, like now for us, then the vipaka cittas arise with wholesome roots. There's sobana cittas, sobana vipaka cittas.

[00:45:10]So, anyway, I the point >> I mean, it's some of it is just gone again, but >> doesn't matter.

[00:45:17]>> When as you were speaking, I it wasn't so strange to me or you know, yeah.

[00:45:24]>> We just know that there's some ahetuka cittas, and when there are ahetuka cittas, no wholesome or unwholesome roots or factors arising. That's all.

[00:45:35]Like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:45:41]>> [laughter] >> Wish I was with you.

[00:45:46]Yes, we thought of you in Vietnam, Azita, so Right.

[00:45:50]Um yeah, I'm still down in Victoria, actually, but hopefully leaving for Queensland soon.

[00:45:58]And is your daughter getting better now?

[00:46:00]Yes. Yeah, she's heaps better. you. Glad that you're there to help her. Yes. Mhm.

[00:46:06]Mhm. Yeah, it's been good.

[00:46:08]Mhm.

[00:46:10]Um I just want to ask um a little question.

[00:46:14]Um about >> [laughter] >> Hello, Acharya. Hello. Sorry, go ahead.

[00:46:20]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:22]Yeah. Go ahead.

[00:46:23]>> Um Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:25]Um I just want to ask that um when there is um you know, vicikiccha, the doubt in the reality, and then there is curiosity about that. So, the curiosity moment is actually lobha.

[00:46:40]And it has to arrive with chanda, but um I just I'm Can you explain maybe you, Sarah, or Thanissara why uh mohamulacitta doesn't have chanda cetasika?

[00:46:56]I think it's quite simple. Just at the moment when there is doubt, just not knowing anything, but no interest at all in the topic, like when we're asked a question and the answer is uncertain, there's just hesitation and doubt. No no interest, just not knowing, not understanding.

[00:47:19]But the moment later there can be, as you say, interest in oh, what is that doubt? Or what was it that was being doubted?

[00:47:28]Interest with lobha instantly following it.

[00:47:33]And at those moments there is ignorance, but it's ignorance with lobha.

[00:47:37]But perhaps Acharya may add more.

[00:47:42]The moment of not knowing anything can there be chanda?

[00:47:48]Um mhm if we study no, but even at moment of lobha, dosa, even that also have moha, also not know anything.

[00:47:58]>> So we just talk about cheetah with moha only.

[00:48:03]Yes, tan at all. Can there be chanda when there is no knowing anything at all?

[00:48:10]Um.

[00:48:12]Um no. Not knowing anything, how come chanda interest?

[00:48:23]But when loba is there chanda is there.

[00:48:28]So at any moment of loba chanda is there, too.

[00:48:32]Interest with loba of such and such object or story or whatever.

[00:48:45]Is that right?

[00:48:48]Yes.

[00:48:51]That's why we learn little by little about one cheetah and one cheetah seeker to have clearer understanding.

[00:48:58]Otherwise, there must be the idea.

[00:49:02]Very subtle. I is there. Something is there. Attha.

[00:49:08]But all dhammas are anatta. See?

[00:49:13]It's not as it appear in daily life at all.

[00:49:17]In life all are attha.

[00:49:20]But in truth each reality is anatta.

[00:49:25]But tan at tan when you say that when there is moha mola cheetah without either of loba or dosa and when you say that it doesn't know anything, what what do you mean by that?

[00:49:38]I mean does it mean not understanding reality or doesn't know object?

[00:49:44]>> Is there seeing right now?

[00:49:46]Yes, tan at tan. Attachment of moha?

[00:49:51]Why do you at? The the moment right then attend to other object like I'm speaking to Suphasson or this is such and such. See? But when there's no at all just see now is there right understanding or moha not knowing even that they see right now in between at the moments.

[00:50:25]That's why I understand when it's the moha alone no attachment, no aversion, no chanda is there.

[00:50:36]But is there manasikara? See different realities at a time.

[00:50:42]They could not be the same at all. They are different.

[00:50:45]But very slight, very subtle difference.

[00:50:48]That's why it's not easy to understand the truth until consider it again and again and again to begin to have firm confidence that chanda doesn't arise with the moha mulacitta without lobha and dosa.

[00:51:07]Yes, but the the point that I'm confused is that when you say that moha mulacitta doesn't know, can you explain? Because if we say in the term of doesn't know the moha perform the function of ignorance. But one moment seeing right now, is there any understanding of seeing?

[00:51:30]No, no. So what is there?

[00:51:33]Ignorance. That's all. What is there?

[00:51:36]No understanding of seeing.

[00:51:39]Yes, no understanding.

[00:51:41]>> Moha unknowingly.

[00:51:43]Yeah.

[00:51:44]Yes.

[00:51:45]>> In the in between processes.

[00:51:48]For example, no matter what process is seeing, hearing, thinking, something is seen, so there must be seeing, but no attention, no understanding at all.

[00:52:01]Yes, Venerable Sir.

[00:52:04]But actually the point that I'm confused is that because if it's going to talk in the term of ignorance that doesn't knows the reality even when the moment of lobha, dosa, or any akusala ignorance perform its function of not knowing. It the ignorance performance that that doesn't understanding the truth.

[00:52:29]But even but when you say that moha mulha doesn't know and then they're saying no chanda, what do you mean by doesn't know? It mean doesn't know the object or doesn't know the real truth of reality. So this is what I'm confused actually.

[00:52:46]Is there seeing now?

[00:52:49]Yes, Venerable Sir.

[00:52:50]>> If no one ask, do you think about seeing?

[00:52:54]No, Venerable Sir. What citta is saying, no attention, no interest at all.

[00:52:59]No idea that there is seeing all the time in between the other processes.

[00:53:05]Oh, okay, Venerable Sir.

[00:53:08]But it does the moha does experience the object, doesn't it?

[00:53:13]Yes, that's my question.

[00:53:15]>> Yes.

[00:53:15]>> Yes.

[00:53:16]So it experiences the object.

[00:53:22]Yes. But it doesn't know anything about it.

[00:53:26]But when even that's what I'm confused. When you say doesn't know about it, what about the lobha that arise with moha or dosa that arise with moha? They all experience an object, but when you say doesn't know about it, does it mean the ignorance performs its function of not the ignorance the reality of ignorance or what do you mean by doesn't know doesn't know the object or doesn't know this this way I'm confused. Yeah.

[00:53:55]Um Well, certainly wouldn't know anything about the reality of it. Yes.

[00:54:01]Yes. But I thought we were talking about the cheater that was rooted just in moha.

[00:54:08]Was that your question or you were talking about the cheater that is rooted in loba or dosa and Yes. also has moha rising together with it. Yes. Yes. Yes. All of that.

[00:54:22]>> That's my Yes. [laughter] Which one?

[00:54:26]No, but when they moha doesn't know right and therefore there's no chanda but when loba or dosa is there and there's chanda, what do you mean by doesn't know because if you saying every akusala moment have to accompany it by ignorance and it doesn't understand reality at any akusala moment. So that's where I'm a bit confused.

[00:54:47]So every mental factor has its function.

[00:54:53]Yes. Yes. Yeah. Like the the loba, you know, is attached to the object.

[00:55:00]Yes. And the dosa is averse to the object.

[00:55:05]And moha just doesn't know the object.

[00:55:09]Yes. It's ignorant of the object.

[00:55:12]Yes.

[00:55:13]>> So in the dhamma, there's only ignorance of something when it is the object of cheater.

[00:55:20]Yes. Yes. Yes. We can't talk about being ignorant of something in the conventional sense of never having heard of it.

[00:55:29]Yeah. Right? It's ignorance is a if you like a positive a positive um, experiencing.

[00:55:40]Yes.

[00:55:44]I don't know if that's any clearer. It's interesting point. Like now, after seeing there can be clinging to the visible object, there can be aversion to it if it's like a loud uh, not loud noise, uh, unpleasant visible object, or there could be just ignorance. It's just not knowing anything about it just for a moment.

[00:56:09]Yeah. That's all.

[00:56:12]No interest at all at that moment. Of course, sanna is still there marking the object.

[00:56:17]Yes.

[00:56:19]So, but but that's what I'm a bit confused. Sorry if I ask, when you say ignorant doesn't know, but doesn't know but doesn't know the object, but every cheetah experience the object, but when you say that ignorant doesn't know, so it doesn't have chanda, but when every it accompanied by lopa or dosa I mean, it's also experience the object, but it doesn't know the anything about reality also. So, what So, what's the difference? Why they stand up with lopa and dosa, but not moha alone?

[00:56:51]Because when there's lopa there's clinging to it, there's interest in it at that moment. There can't be lopa without interest in the object.

[00:57:01]When there's dosa, there's aversion, interest not liking it, interest in avoiding that object, interest in it.

[00:57:11]But when it's and they both arise of ignorance because there's nothing kusala about lopa or dosa.

[00:57:17]But when it's just ignorance on its own no clinging, no aversion, no interest, just not knowing.

[00:57:25]And two has something to say. And the other characteristic of the ignorant is to cover up the truth. It's close, it's cover the truth. That's why clinging or loba arising with uh um with moha or ignorance, it's cling to that object because of the function of the moha that cover ups from realizing the truth as it is.

[00:57:58]Okay.

[00:58:00]This covering up but enjoying at the same time or aversion, but when it's just covering up without any enjoyment or aversion, no interest at all. It's a good way of putting it.

[00:58:13]Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:14]Okay, thank you.

[00:58:17]Thank you, Sarah. I'm I'm Ave.

[00:58:22]Hello. Uh firstly, may I just thank all primarily Ajahn um for the wonderful discussions last week, but everybody else who contributed. Um it was just a really lively and engaging series of discussions. So, thank you, everybody, and and the technicians, too.

[00:58:45]I'm sure there was a lot of work behind the scenes.

[00:58:49]So, thank you.

[00:58:51]Uh Sarah just a question and it was I think in one of the discussions about chanda.

[00:58:59]You pointed out that um the the meaning of of of chanda in terms of um the Abhidhamma is different to how we understand um interest conventionally. Can can you just say something about that, please?

[00:59:25]Yes, of course, when we talk about interest conventionally we thinking of a situated situation. Yes, I'm interested in going on the trip to Vietnam. No, I've got no interest in going on the trip somewhere else. So, it's just a story but actually it's still about what one likes, what one would like to do. Uh usually with lobha to it's usually a story about what one's lobha is interested in. But when we're talking about the reality chanda, we're talking about the mental factor that just arises for a moment at a moment of attachment. For example, when eating one's lunch one moment there's attachment and lobha is there interested in that taste. Another moment one may not like it. There's aversion, there's interest in that object that one doesn't like. Or to moment of kindness, passing the food to one's friends, speaking gently. There's interest in those moments of kindness. Or to moment of understanding like now, considering the dhamma. There's interest there, but it's always just for a moment and it's just a dhamma, it's not my interest. Whereas conventionally it's all about my interest or someone's interest.

[01:00:50]A kind of a long story about oh, I'm interested in shopping or I'm not interested in um going out for dinner, but it's not about a dhamma now.

[01:01:06]Does that explain it a little? Just Just to Thank you, Sarah.

[01:01:11]Just to pick up on um Hadji's um discussion.

[01:01:20]If um If there is something that uh or may can I give a a concrete example perhaps. Um just at the just at the moment um the room that I'm sitting in and pretty much directly in front of me there's quite a large spider on the ceiling.

[01:01:47]And um I'm not really afraid of spiders particularly.

[01:01:52]Uh but I'm keeping an eye on the spider.

[01:01:57]Um so it it seems to me that there's the issue about taking the spider for something.

[01:02:11]So there's ignorance there.

[01:02:15]Um but at the same time there's quite a bit of interest.

[01:02:23]In terms of just being watchful as to where the the spider goes. So there's a mixture of um in our conventional reality and then thinking about no the spider is not that's not real it's just um part of the visual um visual object that arises.

[01:02:51]So I I am that what well I think I do what uh RG was getting at in terms of their not interest when there is ignorance.

[01:03:14]I'm sorry if that's a rather convoluted question. So even now when you talk about the spider or straight away for me there is moments of interest, moments of lobar with interest or interesting story. So it's just daily life and it's now just different damas, different moments of clinging, different moments of aversion, different moments of kusala of interest. And then moments when there is no interest at all.

[01:03:46]I'm just going to pass it to Ajahn if she'd like see if she'd like to add any more, Ajahn.

[01:03:52]Oh, okay. Thank you.

[01:03:55]No one there at all.

[01:03:57]So what are there? See? Thank you, sir.

[01:04:00]namas So many different damas from moment to moment never be the same.

[01:04:08]What arises falls away instantly, never to arise again.

[01:04:12]That's why study dama is study what is there in daily life.

[01:04:19]From moment to moment, one reality at a time in order to begin to let go the idea of self or something.

[01:04:28]Otherwise it's there. I see someone until no one there at all.

[01:04:36]What is true? What is real?

[01:04:38]And not just one reality, there are so many different realities, different nama dama, different rupa dama, not just the word but each one. The nama is that which arises and experiences the object.

[01:04:55]And the rupa cannot cannot experience anything at all.

[01:05:00]So is there my body?

[01:05:04]As long as it can move it can walk it can talk, but at moment of death it cannot do anything.

[01:05:14]Can it be my body anymore?

[01:05:17]But no understanding what still life what is there as not mine or me even the body.

[01:05:27]That's why just talk about one reality at a time. For example, we just talk about chanda.

[01:05:36]Each many many moments arise with chanda. So talk about the moment chanda does not arise with in order to understand that now chanda does not arise with each moment.

[01:05:52]And if we know what moment it does not arise with, then we begin to understand just move one sand or stand up or not wet or not no matter what is done in a day all by chanda.

[01:06:07]Chanda to stand up.

[01:06:09]Chanda to speak.

[01:06:11]Chanda to like, to dislike and so on. So what moment there's no chanda.

[01:06:17]The 10 citta vipaka no need for chanda to arise.

[01:06:24]All depends on kamma.

[01:06:27]To condition moment of seeing pleasant or unpleasant object.

[01:06:33]No selection.

[01:06:35]It's there already and gone.

[01:06:38]Never to arise again.

[01:06:41]So the 18 ahetuka cittas we know what are they and the two moha mula citta doesn't have chanda at all.

[01:06:54]Because seeing no selection to see. No time to select to see. But at moment of it's ready by kamma to condition it to arise no chanda at all. Not by any chanda, anyone's chanda.

[01:07:10]That's why the 10 ahetuka citta without the roots, no chanda, how can it be? And included the two moha mulacitta.

[01:07:22]No chanda arising, no it doesn't know anything at all. How can it have chanda for such and such?

[01:07:32]So no matter just that move your hand or just stand up or write or cook, chanda is there.

[01:07:42]Learn to let go the idea of self from what is there when there is understanding from moment of hearing, considering and not forgetting all dhammas little by little.

[01:07:58]And how many cetasikas are there? Not just chanda, not just viriya, not just cetana and so on, little by little to understand the subtlety of each moment conditioned only by conditions.

[01:08:16]And each one condition the other by different condition, too.

[01:08:21]No one. So the more understanding of the truth of dhamma, one dhamma at a time, it gradually develop to understand the subtlety of what is there right now in split second of split seconds.

[01:08:42]No one there at all.

[01:08:46]With um moha, there is no viriya.

[01:08:50]And the the reflecting on that, yes, how could there be energy? It's lazy. It's It's there's no chanda. But with chanda, yes, Viriya, but not with Moha. It's a certain laziness with it, a wavering kind of a experience, shaky.

[01:09:11]Um and with the Kusala moments uh there can also there's the Viriya, but also I should think um the Kanti, the endurance.

[01:09:32]For understanding, the patience.

[01:09:36]What reality is Kanti? Kanti is um parami.

[01:09:44]What Cetasika?

[01:09:50]Viriya.

[01:09:52]Yeah.

[01:09:57]Which Cetas does Viriya not arise with?

[01:10:02]Because you were talking about Chanda and Viriya sort of slightly mixed up. So when So we talked about when Chanda doesn't arise and how it doesn't arise with the two two Moha Mula Cetas and doesn't arise with any of the Ahetuka Cetas, when does Viriya not arise?

[01:10:21]Viriya does not arise with Moha.

[01:10:24]Not with the Moha Mula Cetas. It cannot arise with ignorance. There's no Chanda, there's no interest.

[01:10:31]Ignorance understands nothing.

[01:10:35]It's I see the box.

[01:10:37]>> Viriya, not Chanda. Not They're not They're not the same reality. Right, they're not the same reality, but Viriya is energy and Chanda is interest, so they're I should think there's Viriya with Chanda. There needs to be some spark.

[01:10:55]Well, see, I am yeah, okay.

[01:11:01]I'm going to pause a moment to reflect on that and get back to that, please.

[01:11:11]No chanda, no viriya with moha, neither of the two. Well, no chanda, of course.

[01:11:19]Okay, chanda cannot arise with without viriya.

[01:11:25]But can viriya arise without chanda?

[01:11:28]That is the question.

[01:11:31]Yes, I should think so. There can be viriya.

[01:11:35]There can be akusala viriya. No, it is not. No, no, no, sorry. Akusala chanda, a bad interest to cherdanize what I'm thinking of, not that.

[01:11:47]Okay. I'm jumping all over the place now. I'm jumping all over the place here.

[01:11:54]Just I just as a pause, I'd like to just ask Pakani and Herbert if you'd like to bring up any topic cuz these are quite detailed topic. Any um anything you would like because it's your special chance. Anything you would like to for us to talk about?

[01:12:15]Maybe Pakani um Those at home will be very glad to see you in the live discussion, Pakani and Herbert, because they know you from the Zoom.

[01:12:46]Pakani and Pakani and Herbert are usually on Zoom from home in Germany, but they're visiting Bangkok at the moment and going back to Germany soon. So Pukanee who you'll recognize is just here to speak.

[01:13:00]Hello everyone. Thank you so much for asking me again today.

[01:13:10]I have some Arjan Ajahn some questions for me is karma is for everything what we doing is from karma. That's right?

[01:13:25]And sorry and how when I want to do I I would like to do something goodness and karma just how karma Your question is about doing kusala, right? Yes. Yeah. How to do?

[01:13:54]Or >> Because I think that now I want I I would like to do something goodness but is that because I have to do before?

[01:14:05]Uh That's why I I do something Well, not necessarily. It uh If you do do something good, it's because you have done good before. Yes, you have accumulated. But wanting to do something good doesn't mean you have done that good before, does it?

[01:14:27]Anyone can want for something because they think it would be nice to have it.

[01:14:33]But if there has been the accumulation of a particular kind of kusala in the past it will condition doing that kusala again.

[01:14:49]But not wanting to do it, but actually doing it.

[01:14:53]Right? So, there's a difference, isn't there, between generosity and wanting to be generous.

[01:15:04]So, if kusala has been developed, it will be a condition for in the to have if it has been developed in the past, it will be a condition for kusala to arise again in the present or the future.

[01:15:25]Yes, I'm not I'm not I'm not sure, but because some someone tell me when you a past have goodness Yes.

[01:15:36]>> Uh you you don't you don't do anything because you cannot do anything because you have from karma.

[01:15:47]Mhm. Arise and you do that. So, we are possibly talking about different things.

[01:15:54]If there has been something done in the past, it can bring result in the future or the present, right?

[01:16:03]Yes.

[01:16:04]But that's different from talking about the tendency to do uh something good. No.

[01:16:17]So, we have to are we talking about uh result now of past deeds, or are we talking about the the tendency now because of the tendency that has been uh collected, accumulated in the past.

[01:16:47]So, you have a pleasant smile and personality, right? Yes.

[01:16:54]>> This is because of that tendency has been accumulated in the past.

[01:17:02]So, that's your nature, your personality.

[01:17:07]But, in this life, you may experience pleasant and unpleasant results.

[01:17:15]And this is different. This is result of karma. Yes.

[01:17:18]>> Not result of the tendency that makes you have a s- pleasant um personality.

[01:17:28]Okay. Thank you so much.

[01:17:31]Maybe Thana Sutta >> [laughter] [gasps] >> explain So, you know what karma is?

[01:17:39]Karma Karma is um what you have a past before.

[01:17:46]No. What you have to do before Not the teachings of the Buddha. Not the teachings of Buddha. Mhm.

[01:17:56]That's why we have to learn very carefully in order to understand how deep it is.

[01:18:03]What is the reality which is called the karma and why it's called karma.

[01:18:11]So, what is it or what is there now? Is there karma now?

[01:18:16]It has to begin to study what is there right now.

[01:18:21]No matter we talk about them karma karma or chanda or whatever.

[01:18:27]It's real in life, but it's unknown.

[01:18:32]Um for example, now I see uh your teaching is there. Okay. Do you have any chanda?

[01:18:41]Um Chanda? We just talked about chanda.

[01:18:45]Chanda, I I think chanda is me.

[01:18:50]So, it's wrong. It's wrong.

[01:18:56]Because I'm just um new to hear chanda.

[01:19:01]Before I think that's that's is um chanda is I do something for me. No, I Dhamma is not I.

[01:19:15]Well, it may be a matter of language, but chanda is the wish to do or interest in something.

[01:19:25]Right?

[01:19:28]Interest in things we like, we have interest in, things we don't like, we also have interest in.

[01:19:36]That's chanda.

[01:19:41]But, Ajahn's original question was when we talk about kamma, which you said things done in the past, right? Yes. But, which which dhamma is things done in the past?

[01:19:59]Is it citta? Is it consciousness?

[01:20:03]Or is it mental factor?

[01:20:04]>> You mean in the past?

[01:20:06]>> past, yeah, when we talk about past deeds.

[01:20:10]Yes. We are talking about which reality?

[01:20:14]Yes.

[01:20:15]Which reality? Yeah.

[01:20:19]Is citta.

[01:20:21]Um good guess, but not right.

[01:20:24]>> [laughter] >> Citta and cetana.

[01:20:27]>> It's actually cetana.

[01:20:28]>> Citta or cetana? Is cetana is the intention.

[01:20:32]Yeah, because if the intention is kusala, then the deed is kusala.

[01:20:39]If the intention is akusala, then the deed is akusala, bad.

[01:20:47]Yes.

[01:20:47]>> And so the result will be unpleasant experience later if it's strong enough.

[01:20:57]So, essential question thing to remember is that the reality of kamma is cetana.

[01:21:07]Cetasika, mental factor.

[01:21:10]And Ajahn will continue from there.

[01:21:15]We have to learn about citta and cetasikas and rupas Yes. to understand the truth of no one at all.

[01:21:24]Yes. Cetasika cannot be citta.

[01:21:28]Cannot.

[01:21:29]And rupa cannot be citta.

[01:21:32]Cannot. Can rupa be cetana?

[01:21:36]No. Can citta be cetana?

[01:21:40]Ci- citta.

[01:21:42]No. That's it. So, what is cetana?

[01:21:47]Cetana is ceta- cetasika arise with citta.

[01:21:52]>> That's not the answer.

[01:21:54]>> [laughter] >> Cetana is cetasika.

[01:21:58]Cetana is I don't know what >> But no understanding, just the word. It is citta and it is cetasika.

[01:22:10]Maybe someone help.

[01:22:14]Meaning of cetana.

[01:22:19]Thinking.

[01:22:21]No?

[01:22:23]Intention.

[01:22:25]Intention.

[01:22:28]Cetana, intention.

[01:22:34]Like now intention to lift the cup, to hold the microphone. Intention at moment of seeing or hearing or thinking.

[01:22:44]Going left, going right.

[01:22:47]Impossible without intention. Chetana cheta seeker at each moment.

[01:22:52]>> Okay, it's right. Yes.

[01:22:55]Yes, I am.

[01:22:56]Intention from walking from there to here.

[01:23:01]Without any without intention is not happening. Yes.

[01:23:07]And the question is Again, please. That was the last answer.

[01:23:13]Now Ajahn's got her next question ready for you.

[01:23:19]Now that we know that intent chetana is intention. It's a cheta seeker. Yes.

[01:23:26]But it's the intention.

[01:23:31]Can there be the answer without understanding?

[01:23:36]No, cannot. Yes. Really? Oh, yes. Yes, maybe yes. Yes, can can >> So, what is understanding?

[01:23:45]Understanding is when you realize when you realize what's true Are you Is there you?

[01:24:04]No. Is there me? No. Is there a glass?

[01:24:10]From from learning on here hearing is not but this What is the difference between this and this?

[01:24:20]No me but there's a class.

[01:24:24]What's different? Yeah.

[01:24:27]You say no me, but there is a class, or there's no class either.

[01:24:35]No me, no class, or no me, but there's class.

[01:24:41]Um, I What I heard from your teaching is uh the rupa rupa and nama.

[01:24:51]>> [laughter] >> I think this class is rupa. Through and through.

[01:24:57]Through. So, rupa is what?

[01:25:02]Not expe- not not cannot do something that's rupa.

[01:25:13]Cannot experience >> Cannot experience like hardness cannot experience, yes, but the touching can experience the hardness or the heat.

[01:25:24]So, the rupa cannot experience.

[01:25:26]>> touching Not you.

[01:25:28]When touching this is hard as is rupa.

[01:25:33]Rupa that is touched, yes.

[01:25:37]It is the rupa that is hard.

[01:25:40]Yes.

[01:25:43]So, it's just a moment of touching, a moment of experiencing. No you that sees or hears or touches or thinks or understands.

[01:25:53]Just different dammas.

[01:25:58]So, rupa cannot experience anything.

[01:26:00]Yes.

[01:26:01]>> Rupa cannot feel sad, feel angry, or cannot see nothing because it's a reality that conditioned to arise to be like that, to be hardness, to be cold, to be sound but can cannot and does not and will never be able to experience anything because that is rupa.

[01:26:29]Yes, thank you.

[01:26:31]Can rupa be kama?

[01:26:35]No.

[01:26:36]What can be What is kama?

[01:26:39]Kama Kama is I I think can do can What reality is kama?

[01:26:53]>> Reality kama This is too too diff- difficult to to say.

[01:27:01]But I think it's a What's caitana Ah, caitana. Yes, yes. Sorry.

[01:27:10]Sorry. caitana is wholesome or unwholesome when it's strong enough it can bring results later. So caitana is kama.

[01:27:23]And caitana arises with every citta but only when it's strong kusala or akusala.

[01:27:30]For example, now there is attachment but it's just ordinary attachment. If the attachment is strong enough to steal the caitana at that moment is the kama that can bring results later.

[01:27:49]Seeing now is result of kama. Hearing is result of kama.

[01:27:54]Just different dhammas, that's all.

[01:27:55]>> Yes. Thank you.

[01:27:57]>> Little by little. Yes, yes, little by little, yes.

[01:28:03]Because it's getting down to the moment is All right. So Chunda Khun Jonathan stated his wish to do and I have that with Chetana which coordinates his karma. So, what I was getting to was the energy to do akusala.

[01:28:25]Viriya and chanda ku- kusala but see and I'm going way too fast for this.

[01:28:33]I've opening an end a whole can of worms but the latent defile- um the latent tendencies defilements don't arise except with the appropriate conditions. I'll never do that. Appropriate conditions? Oh, yes, I will. Self. So, I'm just I guess I was getting to the question is what is the energy that the viriya? Well, that's part of me. See You see what I'm getting at?

[01:29:06]I do but I'm thinking that it's kun pacini's only chance for discussion and there's only about 5 minutes to go so we should continue with that and then you can bring it up in our next discussion.

[01:29:24]Please turn on the sound. Continue.

[01:29:28]Is Chetana the dhamma?

[01:29:32]Yes.

[01:29:33]Can it be wholesome?

[01:29:36]Yes, can it be. Can it be akusala?

[01:29:40]Can it be akusala? Yes. Can it not be wholesome?

[01:29:45]Can or wholesome?

[01:29:48]Yes, can it be. What is there then when it's not wholesome and and not unwholesome?

[01:29:57]Rupa.

[01:29:58]Um We have to begin again from the very beginning.

[01:30:03]Yeah. She's asking about Chetana.

[01:30:06]Chetana the mental factor. So, chetana has to arise with chitta. So, what kind of chittas arise now which are not wholesome and not unwholesome?

[01:30:19]Not wholesome and not unwholesome?

[01:30:24]Not wholesome?

[01:30:26]I know that, but I'm forgetting the name.

[01:30:33]Vipaka chitta.

[01:30:36]Vipaka. Vipaka.

[01:30:38]>> Vipaka. Chitta.

[01:30:40]Like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting.

[01:30:43]Vipaka chitta.

[01:30:47]So, chetana arises with seeing now. It's not kusala.

[01:30:52]It's not akusala. It can never bring results because it's the result of kamma. But, still it needs chetana to arise with it to help coordinate the other chitta seekers and the chitta that arise it arises with it.

[01:31:11]It So, it just arises at those moments, but it doesn't will kusala or akusala at those moments.

[01:31:22]Yeah. Yes, I get Yes, yes now.

[01:31:27]Before not coming.

[01:31:32]Thank you, Bhante Sara. Thank you.

[01:31:35]Never mind. I think it shows that how useful it is to have the discussion and ask the questions cuz otherwise you can listen to many Zooms, but not pick up what's being said, right?

[01:31:49]But, if you have a chance to ask questions, so >> Yes, yes, during during the Zooms in future, you can ask a question, too.

[01:32:00]>> Yes.

[01:32:01]Yeah. And when we're discussing something and it's very complicated and you don't understand, just put up your hand and say I don't understand, please explain.

[01:32:10]>> Yes, very welcome anytime. I get now because I think when I hearing listening, I think I understand that.

[01:32:19]I understand but when I done ask Yes, when I I don't really don't can cannot answer. And the same goes for Herbert.

[01:32:29]>> [laughter] >> You can ask questions.

[01:32:34]Yeah, first two two two questions and then [laughter] That's why we're very glad that he listens and we appreciate that he joins all the zooms to listen. Sometimes it takes time, maybe he'll start asking questions a little later. Yeah. But please ask anytime and it doesn't matter how simple and basic because it helps everyone. This is this is really. Thank you so much for uh for help helping me for more a little more understanding.

[01:33:07]Yes. Um turn turn turn us out about the jetana.

[01:33:12]If I don't have jetana to kill and because I don't see the end but uh I want to know that the result will happen in the future.

[01:33:24]That means do do not understand jetana.

[01:33:27]>> [laughter] >> Continue next time, I think [laughter] because we need to go back to the very beginning. If it's the idea I have jetana, no understanding.

[01:33:42]That's why just answer is not enough.

[01:33:47]You just remember the word, that's all.

[01:33:55]Thank you every