Chemist Says Rebecca Grossman's Alcohol Level Was .08 After SUV Hit Iskander Brothers

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Do you raise your right hand?

[00:00:02]You solemnly swear that the testimony that you give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? I do. Okay, you may be seated.

[00:00:15]And if you can state and spell your name for the record, please.

[00:00:19]Sylors Chem, S Y L O R S C H E M Okay.

[00:00:27]Uh good afternoon. Good afternoon. What is your present occupation or profession?

[00:00:32]I'm currently a chemist.

[00:00:35]Where where are you a chemist?

[00:00:37]Uh I'm a chemist with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department Scientific Services Bureau.

[00:00:43]How did you get a name like Chem to be a chemist? Coincidence.

[00:00:47]>> [laughter] >> Okay.

[00:00:49]How long have you been working in your present role, sir?

[00:00:52]Um as a forensic alcohol analyst for 14 and 1/2 years.

[00:00:59]How many years have you been doing forensic alcohol analysis? Over 14 and 1/2 years.

[00:01:07]What is forensic alcohol analysis?

[00:01:12]Forensic alcohol analysis is analyzing biological samples such as uh blood samples, urine samples, um breath samples using the approved methods and instruments by the forensic laboratory.

[00:01:27]Your current job duties with the Sheriff's You're employed by the County of Los Angeles. That is correct. And you work in the Sheriff's Department as are you a sworn personnel or non-sworn? Non-sworn.

[00:01:39]And what's the what is the difference?

[00:01:41]Um I'm a science scientist.

[00:01:44]I have the science degrees. Um I don't uphold or let me phrase rephrase that. I I don't enforce the law.

[00:01:58]Can you tell us what you do every day at your job? Um the majority of my duties include blood and breath alcohol analysis um urine analysis. So, this include um analyzing the samples for the amount of alcohol in a person's uh system.

[00:02:27]Um operating, maintaining, troubleshooting instruments that's used for analysis.

[00:02:33]Along with that, I also um train other chemists in the forensic alcohol section.

[00:02:39]Um I trained law enforcement personnel um with the current county um the DataMaster DMT that's used for evidentiary purposes.

[00:02:51]Is part of your job duties uh require you to come to court and assist law enforcement in prosecution of the law?

[00:03:00]No. My job duty is to come to court and testify on my analysis and interpretation of my analysis. And that's used by law enforcement? That is used for whether it's law enforcement or other purposes. How many times have you come to court and qualified as an expert in your field? I've been qualified um at least 185 times. 185, did you say?

[00:03:29]Yes. That's correct.

[00:03:32]In the course of that work have Is it common that lawyers will talk to you before you testify about orders of the court and things that you need to be aware of and comply with? That is correct. Regardless if it's prosecution or defense attorneys uh they communicate with me to ensure that I get the right information uh in order to give my opinion and to ensure that um And did I don't tell me about what did I discuss with you certain orders that you need to make sure you comply with in this case before you came here today?

[00:04:13]Yes. Okay.

[00:04:16]Prior to joining the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, did you have another job? I did. What was that? I was a forensic alcohol analyst {slash} criminalist at the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department uh Scientific Investigations Division.

[00:04:32]Was that similar to the job you have now? Yes.

[00:04:38]Could you tell us about your academic background that assists you in your field?

[00:04:43]I graduated from the California State University, Long Beach. I earned a Bachelor of Art in Chemistry a Bachelor of Science in Biochemistry with a minor in Biology.

[00:04:54]In addition, I earned a Master of Science in Bioche- Biochemistry with an emphasis in molecular cell biology.

[00:05:02]My My experience involved um 10 years. I was a research scientist, molecular cell biologist. I worked with um designing um or bioengineering different uh human pathogens including different strains of HIV viruses, different strains of tuberculosis bacteria different strains of yeast, E. coli and 2012 was when I joined the San Bernardino San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department Scientific Investigations Division.

[00:05:37]I was there for 4 and 1/2 for the for 5 years. I was in their forensic alcohol section for 4 out of 5 years that I was there.

[00:05:46]And again, my job duties was in forensic alcohol analysis um analyzing both or involving both blood and breath alcohol analysis training other criminalists, um training law enforcement personnel on different evidentiary breath instruments.

[00:06:03]Uh going to court as an expert witness to the Superior Court of San Bernardino. To what? San Bernardino? Um I was an expert witness in the Superior Courts of San Bernardino. And then in 2017, I joined the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department in their forensic alcohol section.

[00:06:22]Um my job duties here included blood analysis, breath analysis urine analysis, alcohol beverage analysis. And again, I train other criminalists here.

[00:06:34]I train law enforcement personnel on the breath instruments that's used in the County of Los Angeles.

[00:06:41]I also um serve as an expert witness to the Superior Courts of Los Angeles.

[00:06:46]And my trainings include in-house trainings in both laboratories on the method of analysis and operation, maintenance, troubleshooting of instruments used for analysis.

[00:06:57]I also did extensive trainings in the field of forensic alcohol um mainly the uh toxicology of alcohol pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of alcohol along with my opinion on driving under the influence of alcohol.

[00:07:14]Okay.

[00:07:23]Are there state regulations that govern forensic alcohol analysis? Yes.

[00:07:31]Tell us about that, please.

[00:07:33]The state regulation is known as the um Title 17 of the California Code of Regulation.

[00:07:41]That's the um regulation that governs forensic alcohol analysis including blood analysis, breath analysis and urine analysis.

[00:07:51]Where is your laboratory?

[00:07:54]The main laboratory is near uh Cal State Los Angeles um where I'm at is a subsidiary of the main laboratory um in Downey.

[00:08:08]Downey? Yes.

[00:08:12]Is the lab accredited? Yes. Why why do labs get accredited?

[00:08:18]The accreditation is to ensure the laboratory is impartial, that they're competent in their method of analysis, their reporting um their work, and also the accreditation board um have regulations that as a laboratory, we have to comply in order to be accredited.

[00:08:42]Who is the body, if there is one, that accredits your laboratory?

[00:08:46]Um the accreditation body that we have is ANAB.

[00:08:51]It's an acronym for ANSI National Accreditation Board.

[00:08:55]ANSI ANSI is another accredit um acronym for American National Standard Institute.

[00:09:05]You familiar with proficiency testing?

[00:09:07]Yes. Could you tell us about that, please?

[00:09:10]So, we receive proficiency testing um at least once a year. The proficiency test is to ensure the continuing competency of the analysts on the laboratory's current method of analysis along with the laboratory's performance.

[00:09:27]Have you done research and reading in your field of forensic alcohol analysis?

[00:09:33]>> I have. Are you familiar with the current state of the scientific research in that area? Yes.

[00:09:39]>> [clears throat] >> Is that part of your job to keep up on that? Yes.

[00:09:44]Have you done uh withdraw that.

[00:09:47]Are you familiar with the use of correlation studies in the field of forensic alcohol analysis? I am. Please explain.

[00:09:54]>> [clears throat] >> So, a correlation study basic definition is that it's a study of relationship between two things.

[00:10:03]When we talk about correlation studies specifically for forensic alcohol, we're talking about the correlations between or the relation between alcohol and a person's abilities.

[00:10:12]Specifically, it's the um alcohol and how it affects a person's mental abilities, how it affects the person's physical abilities. For example, in a correlation study, we gather a group of participants into a room. We have We serve them food.

[00:10:30]Have them perform different activities such as playing board games, uh computer games, um puzzle games.

[00:10:37]And we also have them perform field sobriety tests. And what we are initially, um with alcohol alcohol in their system, is we want to see how well they perform these activities.

[00:10:49]And this is This is established for us a baseline.

[00:10:53]Now, afterward, um we serve them their favorite alcoholic beverages. And then, as the level alcohol increases, we ask them to perform the same activities. And what we're interested in knowing is how alcohol affects a person uh abilities.

[00:11:11]How do does it affect the person's ab- mental abilities such as the ability to process information, judgment, decision-making, uh reaction time. We also want to know the alcohol whether it impairs a person's physical abilities such as um whether it impairs coordination, balance, whether it causes the slurring of speech or the red watery eyes.

[00:11:40]You're familiar with the studies and yourself an expert in the area of the effects of alcohol on a person's ability to drive a car safely.

[00:11:50]Yes.

[00:11:52]Can you please describe that effect?

[00:11:55]So, um a driving correlation study is a type of forensic alcohol correlation study in which the par- participants are either in a driving simulator or um in a um motor vehicle.

[00:12:12]And the scientists in these type of studies, they want to see the participants um placing a key into the ignition, uh starting engine, shifting gears, um backing into a garage, backing out of a driveway, and then performing different obstacle courses with the motor vehicle.

[00:12:31]Um I was lucky enough to observe a um driving correlation studies in which the participants were race professional race car drivers.

[00:12:43]They were asked, with alcohol in their system, to perform different obstacle courses while operating a motor vehicle.

[00:12:50]And then, they were introduced alcohol into their system. And as the alcohol level increases, they're asked to perform the same activities, going through the different obstacle courses.

[00:13:01]One of the obstacle course that they had to perform was to operate a motor vehicle, and there's a cone in front of them.

[00:13:09]And they have to come to as close to the cone as possible.

[00:13:13]Without alcohol in their system, they come They can come within 1 in of the cone consistently.

[00:13:19]However, as the alcohol level increases in their system, they either would stop too far away from the cone or they would hit the cone and run over it. So, this is an example of alcohol affecting the person's mental abilities in order to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:13:37]Meaning, it affects a person's ability to process information, judgment, decision-making, uh reaction time, divided attention tasks, which are significant in operating a motor vehicle safely.

[00:13:55]Can you You just talked about the mental and physical aspects.

[00:14:02]Which does it affect first?

[00:14:05]The mental abilities always get affected first before the physical abilities. Can you explain the difference in the tasks, mental versus physical, and then the effect of the alcohol?

[00:14:19]So, the mental abilities, um as I mentioned briefly, that includes the ability to process information. So, um when alcohol affects the ability to process information, it means that the information is coming, but they're processing much slower than they normally would without the impairment of alcohol.

[00:14:40]So, alcohol affects their ability to process information, their decision-making, their judgment, divided attention tasks.

[00:14:48]It also affects the person's reaction time um and perception.

[00:14:53]Perception is significant because it's Well, let me define it. It's the um being aware of the element in the environment through physical sensation.

[00:15:05]When somebody is under the influence of alcohol, their perception or their peripheral vision is reduced or impaired.

[00:15:13]And some point in time, when the alcohol level is high enough, they can experience what's known as a tunnel vision, where they lose all their perception or their peripheral vision, and they can only see straight.

[00:15:26]And then, of course, alcohol affects the person's physical abilities.

[00:15:31]It affects their coordination, balance.

[00:15:34]It causes the slurring of uh speech. It causes the red watery eyes.

[00:15:39]But what's important, um and what's significant in driving safely is the mental abilities.

[00:15:48]And that's what happens with alcohol. It is It impairs the judgment. It impairs the decision-making, the ability to process information, the divided attention tasks attention tasks for a person to operate a motor vehicle safely, especially in a non-controlled environment, and especially when they're moving at a fast rate of speed.

[00:16:11]Non-controlled environment. You You mentioned these tests that were done earlier.

[00:16:15]They were done in a simulator. And that that's basically like they do with the airplane a pilot training. Somebody gets into a simulated car, and they do the test, right?

[00:16:26]>> Yes.

[00:16:27]Is that the same as someone that's out in the real world driving and all these other people, other cars operating a motor vehicle? Is that the same? It's not. Why not? Because when I'm talking about non-controlled environments, I mean, there's things that's unexpected.

[00:16:44]You can't control the situation. Um You can be aware of it. You can try to yourself um be able to control what you can do, but you can't control the environment that you're in.

[00:16:59]So, the environment could be while you're moving and operating a motor vehicle, there could be a child coming in front of you chasing after a ball, and you have to be able to react to it. Um you have to make the decision and the judgment um when coming to a stop light, when changing lanes.

[00:17:18]You have to decide and make decision if you have enough space in other lane in order to change and move on to the other lane safely. Okay.

[00:17:29]In your field, is there a difference between driving under the influence and driving while impaired?

[00:17:38]I'm sorry. Can you repeat that question?

[00:17:39]>> In your field of toxicology, operating a motor vehicle, is there a difference between someone driving impaired versus driving drunk, for example?

[00:17:50]Absolutely. Explain.

[00:17:53]So, um driving impaired means that the person um is impaired of the mental abilities.

[00:18:02]Um I'm going to rephrase my answer.

[00:18:06]Driving drunk is the person is also impaired mentally.

[00:18:12]Um But it depends on what the definition of drunk is. So, I'm not going to go any further than that. Okay.

[00:18:26]>> If the person has alcohol in their system and they're impaired mentally, they are not be able to operate a motor vehicle safely. Um Fair enough.

[00:18:34]Um Somebody that in your opinion is impaired at the level that you feel is impaired to operate a motor vehicle, that doesn't mean that they're drunk, falling down, unable to stand up or anything, does it? No. So, you don't The person doesn't have to exhibit the physical impairment due to alcohol to be impaired in operating a motor vehicle or to be impaired in driving safely.

[00:19:04]Remember, driving safely means their mental impairments are their mental abilities are impaired.

[00:19:10]Their ability to process information, their judgment, their reaction times are impaired.

[00:19:16]Mental impairment. Does that include the effects on someone's ability to make decisions when operating a motor vehicle at a high speed? That is part of it, yes.

[00:19:29]Is it more difficult or easier for someone who's impaired to safely operate a motor vehicle, let's say, 73 to 80 mph?

[00:19:40]It's much more difficult for a person who's moving at a faster rate of speed, and their abilities are impaired by alcohol. Much more difficult than when they're not impaired by alcohol.

[00:19:54]The faster you're going, does the impairment have a bigger effect versus if you were going Let's say someone's going 30 mph versus 80 mph?

[00:20:08]Um Same uh level of impairment. Just assume they have the same level.

[00:20:15]In my opinion, it's not so much Well, let me rephrase this.

[00:20:22]Even if you're not impaired by alcohol, the faster you drive, the much more difficult it is for you to control the vehicle.

[00:20:33]Now, consider that you're impaired or let's say you're behind somebody who is distracted, even with a cell phone, all right? Um if the person is distracted and they're moving at a faster rate of speed, it's much more difficult for them to control the environment to um drive safely, to pay attention to the non-controlled environment that they're in.

[00:21:02]Does the mental impairment affect an operator of a motor vehicles judgment? decision-making?

[00:21:10]>> Absolutely. Yes.

[00:21:13]All right.

[00:21:14]Based on your knowledge, correlation studies, literature in this field, have you reached an opinion whether there's a correlation between the amount of alcohol in a person's system and what his or her degree of impairment would be for the purposes of driving? I have.

[00:21:32]Please tell us what that your opinion is that you that you have.

[00:21:37]My current opinion is that at a 0.08% everyone is mentally impaired to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:21:46]And you said that's a 0.08? 0.08. What about 0.07?

[00:21:53]Do you have an opinion about that? I do.

[00:21:55]What is your opinion in that regard?

[00:21:57]My opinion at a 0.07% is that most individuals would be mentally impaired to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:22:07]What about somebody uh Do you have an opinion about somebody that's a 0.04% blood alcohol content?

[00:22:15]So, I don't have an 04% opinion.

[00:22:20]However, there are numerous studies in the field of forensic alcohol um in regards to driving.

[00:22:28]Um two major studies were one was in 1974 by Robert Borkenstein and that involved 15,000 participants.

[00:22:39]Another one was by Bloomberg, I believe 2009, where um it was a uh driving uh impairment involving, I believe, at least 8,000 participants.

[00:22:58]And what they found consistently was that um somebody or at a 0.04% is the start of um somebody uh getting into a crash um under influence of alcohol.

[00:23:18]At a 0.06% their likelihood of getting into an accident while under the influence of alcohol is twice as much.

[00:23:27]At a 0.08% they're three times as much like as likely.

[00:23:33]Um at a 0.1% they're five times as likely to get involved in a crash under the influence of alcohol.

[00:23:42]And then it increases exponentially after that. So, somebody at a 0.15 they would be 22 times as likely to be involved in a crash under the influence of alcohol.

[00:23:54]So, am I right to say that in your opinion everyone is impaired to drive a motor vehicle at 0.08, most people are impaired at 0.07, and some people are impaired at 0.04.

[00:24:13]No. Okay. I don't have an opinion at a 0.04% yet.

[00:24:18]Um I do have an opinion on an 05 where some people will be impaired to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:24:26]Um 0.07% most individuals.

[00:24:31]And then at 0.08% everyone is mentally impaired to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:24:38]Are you familiar with field sobriety tests?

[00:24:41]I am.

[00:24:48]>> [clears throat] >> Or field sobriety test as complicated a task as driving a vehicle? It's not.

[00:24:55]Please explain.

[00:24:57]When a individual um performs a field sobriety field sobriety test, they're number one in a relatively controlled environment.

[00:25:07]They're either in on the side of road or in a parking lot and they have a um there's a law enforcement personnel there uh to guide them and uh tell them what they need to do.

[00:25:22]The field sobriety tests, they are simple divided attention tasks such as walking a number steps, turning around, um counting, um lifting their leg. Um so, these are simple divided attention tasks versus operating a motor vehicle, whereas in a subject operating a motor vehicle, number one, they're moving at a faster rate of speed. Um they're responsible for a motor vehicle that is at least 2,000 lb um and they're in a non-controlled environment.

[00:25:59]So, that is important because in a non-controlled environment, as I mentioned, is that you have to be able to um operate the motor vehicle safely while there's other things that's going on that's outside your control.

[00:26:19]In your experience, is it possible for an individual driver who's mentally impaired uh to drive, still do okay on some field sobriety tests? Yes. Why is that?

[00:26:33]Uh because everyone's different. And again, as I mentioned, the field sobriety tests are simple divided attention tasks. Um some individuals um if they are, for example, um professional athletes, um such as gymnasts, they do have a much better coordination balance to perform these field sobriety tests versus the average individuals who may not be able to perform it regardless if they're impaired or not.

[00:27:03]Familiar with the term tolerance? I am.

[00:27:06]What does that mean in the field of alcohol forensic analysis?

[00:27:10]So, when we talk about tolerance in forensic alcohol, we're talking about the masking of the mental Excuse me, the physical impairments uh caused by alcohol.

[00:27:20]What I mean What I mean by that is that when somebody's impaired by alcohol, for example, they're walking and they're swinging side to side because of alcohol, they can mask the impairment by walking slower than they normally would.

[00:27:36]Or if they're slowing their speech because of alcohol, they can actually mask the slowing speech by speaking slower than they normally would.

[00:27:50]Does one build up a tolerance to alcohol by use of alcohol?

[00:27:55]They can. Experience of alcohol, yes. In other words, the more you drink, the better your some people, the better you're able to tolerate it.

[00:28:02]They can.

[00:28:10]Does your Does the concept of tolerance alter in any way your conclusion regarding the correlation studies?

[00:28:19]The concept of tolerance doesn't uh change my conclusion on the impairment of alcohol.

[00:28:30]I want to go back. How many times have you analyzed blood alcohol like you've done in this case?

[00:28:38]Approximately 15,000 times. 15,000? Yes.

[00:28:44]Would you say that that's a that's a lot of times for someone in your position?

[00:28:48]That's too many times.

[00:28:50]Would it be fair to say that you are very, very expert in the area?

[00:28:55]Uh somewhat.

[00:28:58]Uh How did you get the sample in this case?

[00:29:07]Um the way I get a sample um is in our laboratory there is a evidence section. They control all the evidence that comes in and out.

[00:29:22]Um I go to the evidence section, request a sample to be um assigned to me.

[00:29:30]Um Before I accept this the evidence, um I ensure that the information that's on the evidence is consistent with what's on the uh evidence tracking system that we have.

[00:29:46]Um I ensure that there's no tampering on the evidence.

[00:29:50]And then once I'm satisfied with that, I ask the evidence be assigned to my name.

[00:29:58]I take the evidence to my workbench.

[00:30:00]I review it, make sure that everything is consistent in regards to information.

[00:30:05]>> [snorts] >> Once I'm satisfied, I open the evidence.

[00:30:10]Take out the sample.

[00:30:13]In this case, it would be a sample um a glass vial with a gray top and containing blood. And I'm not sure I'm sure that the the vial has the same information as what's on the envelope and the um information tracking system.

[00:30:31]And then after that, um I proceed to analyze the sample. Do Do you ever mix up the samples? No.

[00:30:40]Ever in the 15,000 plus times? I don't believe so.

[00:30:45]Is it Is there ever been shown that you messed up any samples?

[00:30:48]>> No.

[00:30:50]Uh I want to show you uh sir exhibit number 57.

[00:30:57]LASD Scientific Services Bureau Chain of Custody Report.

[00:31:02]And it'll it'll be on the screen for you to see in a second.

[00:31:05]When you talk about uh chain of custody, is this what you're referring to, sir?

[00:31:09]Yes. And are you uh indicated somewhere on this chain of custody?

[00:31:14]Um I don't see my name on this one.

[00:31:34]Um Let me show you uh exhibit 57.

[00:31:49]Which one?

[00:31:50]I mean 58, sorry.

[00:31:52]That was 58.

[00:31:55]Oh, so the the previous exhibit is 57.

[00:32:01]I want to now show you I want to show you exhibit 58.

[00:32:11]If we could show that first.

[00:32:14]>> [clears throat] >> Okay, I think let's go to the This is the first page.

[00:32:24]Are you on this one?

[00:32:27]Oh, there we go.

[00:32:28]I I believe uh Well, if we go to show them the second page, please.

[00:32:38]So, it looks like to me uh S Kim 1, is that you? That is me. So, it was assigned to you October 5th. Is that right?

[00:33:00]What does that say, October 2nd there?

[00:33:03]No, 5th.

[00:33:17]Approach.

[00:33:19]What's that? Approach.

[00:33:21]Oh, I thought you told us not to ask anymore.

[00:33:23]No.

[00:33:25]Do you want me to I I'm happy to do I thought you said not to do that.

[00:33:29]Did I Did I mishear that? You did. Okay, I'm sorry. I will ask again. Well, I see it on there.

[00:33:37]No.

[00:33:43]Are you listed on there, sir? Yes.

[00:33:46]It says it on October 5th, 2020.

[00:33:49]Yes.

[00:33:49]>> You're S Kim 1, that's you. That is correct.

[00:33:53]Let's take a look then at uh exhibit 49.

[00:34:11]You see that, sir? I do. Do you know what those are? These are blood vials that I um have possession of and I analyze.

[00:34:24]Okay, why don't you just walk us through once you get the vials, what happens?

[00:34:29]So, once I get the evidence, the evidence comes in an envelope. It's sealed. Hold on one second. Let me show 48. Okay. See if that helps.

[00:34:42]Is Is this the envelope? Yes, so This is the back of the envelope. Okay, let me just show the front. That's 47.

[00:34:52]So, we have both sides.

[00:34:56]Is that the front of the envelope?

[00:34:59]Yes. Okay, why don't you explain what happens?

[00:35:03]So, this is the envelope that I would receive and there's evidence in that in there. And this would be the um glass vial containing the blood in the blood.

[00:35:15]So, I look to make sure that there's information on there that's consistent with what's on the evidence tracking system.

[00:35:25]And then I look on both sides to make sure there's no tampering on it.

[00:35:29]Once um I'm satisfied, I take it with me uh to my workbench.

[00:35:36]And then I would proceed to open it.

[00:35:38]So, review it, open it.

[00:35:41]And then review the blood vial to ensure that the name everything is on there is consistent with what's on the envelope and on the evidence tracking system.

[00:35:53]There's also a number L089644.

[00:35:59]Is that some type of tracking number? It is. And how How does that work here? So, that number um gets generated by the evidence tracking system in our in our laboratory.

[00:36:21]Did you eventually unseal the envelope?

[00:36:23]Yes.

[00:36:24]Did you remove the vials of the blood?

[00:36:26]>> I did.

[00:36:28]Once you did that, what did you do?

[00:36:30]Um once I uh removed the vial from the envelope, um again I ensured the informations are uh consistent with what's on the vial, the envelope, and evidence tracking system.

[00:36:44]Once I'm satisfied satisfied with it, I prepare uh proceed to prepare the sample for analysis.

[00:36:55]How do you do that?

[00:36:57]The way I prepare the analysis is by mixing the blood vial, inverting it, and then um piping pipetting using a plastic pipette, uh pipetting the blood to ensure it's a homogeneous mixture.

[00:37:18]And then once that Once I'm satisfied that it is um an evenly mixed um I take a small portion of the blood from the blood vial, place it into another uh vial that's used in the instrument for analysis.

[00:37:39]Is that how you do it every time? That's how I do it every time. Did you do it this time the way you do it every other time? Yes.

[00:37:46]Why is it important to do it exactly the same way every time?

[00:37:50]To ensure there's no mix-up.

[00:37:52]Did you sit here today and since this is almost 6 years later, is there any question in your mind there's no mix-up, this is Rebecca Grossman's blood you tested? That is correct.

[00:38:06]And your your initials are on there.

[00:38:08]Yes.

[00:38:10]One of these. Do you remember that? My My name is on the top of the envelope where the the red tape um covered.

[00:38:18]And then on So, So, there um barely visible is the information that I wrote.

[00:38:28]And then also along with that, um the laboratory receipt number. And then when I seal it, it has the blue tape with my initial on it.

[00:38:41]Is there a machine or instrument that you use to perform the uh blood alcohol content analysis? Yes. What is that called? It's known as headspace gas chromatograph.

[00:38:54]Does it have a uh Oh.

[00:38:59]HGC?

[00:39:01]Have you heard of that term?

[00:39:02]>> Um H SGC, I Okay.

[00:39:07]>> Headspace gas chromatograph. What is a chromatograph?

[00:39:10]And just describe what does it look like and so we can visualize what it looks.

[00:39:16]So, um our chromatograph or headspace chromatograph is basically a large microwave oven.

[00:39:24]Um it has a [clears throat] long thin tube in it known as a column.

[00:39:30]And the purpose of the uh gas chromatograph is to separate volatile chemicals that's in a mixture.

[00:39:39]In this case, I would take the sample, the blood sample, >> [clears throat] >> prepare it in a sample vial, close it up, and place it inside um a carousel or a carrier that that's attached to the instrument.

[00:39:58]The instrument then takes the sample, heats it up, and then the chemical that's inside the sample vial, so with ethanol, it's mixed as in a liquid form inside with or with the uh blood.

[00:40:18]When it gets heated, then um liquid ethanol, it changes its phase from liquid to gas.

[00:40:27]Once in a gas phase, the instrument takes a needle, punctures the >> [clears throat] >> sample vial, extracts a small portion of the gas, and place it inside the column.

[00:40:40]Once inside the column, the mixture of chemicals travels through columns, and it gets separated from each other by their physical characteristics.

[00:40:52]You can think of it like um a group of runners, so they have different physical physical characteristics.

[00:40:59]Some are tall, some are short, some are large, some are skinny.

[00:41:04]At the beginning of the run, they're in a close approximate proximity to each other, but over time they start to separate from each other. It's the same way with the uh mixture of chemicals inside a column.

[00:41:17]It travels through the column, it gets separated based on its physical characteristics, and then it comes off the column one at a time, where there's a detector attached to it.

[00:41:28]The detector um then sends a signal of what it's detecting to the computer.

[00:41:37]The computer then draws a picture of what's retained inside the column, how long that chemical is retained inside the column, and how much of that chemical um is in the blood sample, and that corresponds to how much of the chemical is in a person's system.

[00:41:58]Is that methodology that you use approved by Title 17 of the California Department of Health Services? It is approved.

[00:42:07]How many times have you done that test?

[00:42:09]At least 10,000 times.

[00:42:10]>> [snorts] >> You're pretty good at it.

[00:42:13]Fairly good.

[00:42:16]What is clotting in the blood?

[00:42:18]Um clotting in the blood is when the blood is no longer in its liquid form, it's become uh gelatinized while in the vial, um and in that scenario, I would not be able to analyze it.

[00:42:38]Were any of the blood vials that you described the blood was drawn from in this case clotted? No, not absolutely not.

[00:42:50]Does the machine, the high performance gas chromatogram, does that have certain checks and balances to make sure that it's fully in working order, calibrated, and accurate?

[00:43:05]Yes, so the the method of analysis that we have, um it has its checks and balances.

[00:43:12]So, when I analyze a blood sample, included with the the sample, I have to ensure that there's um standards and quality controls. Um these standards and quality controls have known um alcohol concentrations, and when the instrument analyzes the blood samples, it also analyzes these quality controls and standards.

[00:43:39]All the results from the quality control and standards has to be within acceptable range of the known value.

[00:43:46]Do you run this test more than once?

[00:43:49]The blood sample, each individual blood sample, are run in in duplicate.

[00:43:56]Why would you run it in duplicate?

[00:43:58]The number one, it complies with Title 17 of the court regulation.

[00:44:05]Uh number two, it shows consistency.

[00:44:15]Did you take the results that you obtained and put those into an official report?

[00:44:23]Yes.

[00:44:38]>> [snorts] >> The two tests, you remember what the blood alcohol content was when you withdraw that question.

[00:44:58]Do you have an understanding that the incident occurred approximately 7:00 or a little after 7:00 p.m.? Yes.

[00:45:08]Did you learn that the blood was taken approximately 10:17 drawn at the Los Robles Hospital?

[00:45:18]Um I don't recall the exact uh time. Um All right. Oh, I want you just to assume for questions that it was taken and I can find the exhibit. It's I think it's 10:17 that they actually physically took the blood. Okay?

[00:45:37]>> I want to show you exhibit 59.

[00:45:42]Is this the report that uh Can I go up there or not? Yes.

[00:45:48]Is this the report that we were talking about that that you prepared here? Yes.

[00:45:53]Why don't you just tell us what the findings were in your official Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department Scientific Services Bureau laboratory report?

[00:46:05]So, the um my analysis on the report, it gave a average um blood alcohol concentration of 0.08%.

[00:46:18]The duplicate analysis shows that it's a 0.080% on the first analysis, and a 0.081% on the second analysis.

[00:46:32]That ex- exam or withdraw that. That analysis that would indicate the blood alcohol content in the blood at the time it was taken, is that correct? That is correct. So, that doesn't tell us what the blood alcohol was at the time of the collision, does it?

[00:46:57]That is correct.

[00:46:58]The collision approximately 3 hours before, okay?

[00:47:02]Okay. Is that your understanding?

[00:47:04]Yes.

[00:47:10]I want you to assume that Ms. Grossman testified or in the evidence is that at 4:30 to 5:30, she consumed or she was at uh peak alcohol, she consumed one standard margarita, 1 and 1/2 oz of of tequila and triple sec. I think the tequila uh 80 proof. Okay.

[00:47:41]Then between 5:30 and let's say 5:30 and 6:50, she consumed another standard margarita. Same ingredients, okay?

[00:47:59]>> Okay. All right.

[00:48:00]I want you to further assume that the individual female weighing approximately 130 lb.

[00:48:08]Now, their peak alcohol at the time.

[00:48:15]She sure I answer this right.

[00:48:24]Based on what was said was drank, is the blood alcohol that you found consistent with that?

[00:48:33]I'm sorry, can you repeat that question?

[00:48:35]Repeat that question.

[00:48:36]What I What I'm trying to get to is this.

[00:48:39]The blood alcohol that you have is no question in your mind, that's what it was when you tested it, right?

[00:48:45]>> Yes. That's what it And if that means that would have been what it would be when it was drawn, and I believe that's 10:17, same as when you tested it, right? Yes, at the time of the first >> and also, did you know that the Orange County Crime Lab did subsequent testing? Yes.

[00:49:00]Could you tell us your experience if you open a vial and things happen with the blood, whether there can be a change or dissipation in any way in the amount of the blood alcohol content? Yes. So, >> your knowledge about that.

[00:49:14]So, >> [clears throat] >> alcohol is volatile, so um it will evaporate very fast.

[00:49:25]Um when a sample gets opened frequently, it's expected that the alcohol will decrease um when a different, for example, Orange County Crime Lab were to analyze it because I had the initial I was the initial individual who analyzed it before it was opened.

[00:49:59]Okay. So, would that be consistent with the understanding that the Orange County blood alcohol once it was done again was a little less? Yes, it would be consistent with the alcohol um decreasing from when I initially analyzed it.

[00:50:13]I'll go back to my questions to see if I can make it appropriate here. Do you mind if I take notes on this?

[00:50:21]Or do I eat? No, no, no. I think it's okay. Sure. Do you have a piece of paper you want?

[00:50:24]>> I I do. Okay.

[00:50:26]I just want to make sure I take down the information.

[00:50:35]So, we're talking 130-lb female one standard margarita triple sec 3:30 or excuse me, 4:30 to 5:30.

[00:50:46]Second margarita standard tequila triple sec consumed between let's just say 5:30 and close to 7:00, 10:00 to 7:00, let's say.

[00:50:59]5:00 to 7:00 approximately. So, 5:00 to 7:00 or 5:30 to Second first margarita 4:30 to 5:30. Standard margarita. Second margarita 5:45 to 6:50, let's just say. Okay. 5:45 to 6:50.

[00:51:23]And you said the first one is 4:30 to 5:30. And what was the percent alcohol? Say 80. 80 proof?

[00:51:31]>> Tequila.

[00:51:32]And with the triple sec, which is less.

[00:51:35]Okay. So, the second one was one margarita. What was the percentage alcohol?

[00:51:43]I suppose it's 80%.

[00:51:46]Same. What was the question? The second uh drink?

[00:51:51]Margarita. Two margaritas.

[00:51:53]One 4:30 5:30-ish. The next one 5:45 to 6:50. Standard margaritas, tequila, triple sec uh what do they call that? Margarita mix. There's no alcohol in that, I don't think. So, I need to know So, the first drink was 40% alcohol.

[00:52:11]>> alcohol.

[00:52:12]>> [clears throat] >> No, but the first drink was 40% alcohol.

[00:52:16]And the second drink? Same. Is it same?

[00:52:21]Okay.

[00:52:22]So, my question is would that be consistent or what would you expect?

[00:52:33]Would you believe But what calculations can you do from that?

[00:52:38]So, um it Well, it depends on your question.

[00:52:44]Trying to get you to help me out here.

[00:52:46]I I wasn't a double chemistry major, okay?

[00:52:48]>> [laughter] >> Far from it. My apologies.

[00:52:54]All right.

[00:52:57]Is it consistent with what the blood alcohol was with what she said she drank?

[00:53:02]Objection, vague and ambiguous.

[00:53:05]Overall.

[00:53:09]Um So, if the person had two drinks, let's say it's When you're talking about two drinks, you're talking about let's say if it's a standard drink, if it's liquor you're talking about a 1.5 oz at 40% alcohol on average. And let's say to make it easier for calculation purposes two drinks um or two standard drinks which is 1.5 oz at 40% alcohol, which is liquor.

[00:53:50]And then you said that they had their last drink at 6:50.

[00:53:56]And >> Approximately. Approximately.

[00:53:58]And then you said that the time of test was 3 hours after Yes.

[00:54:07]Okay.

[00:54:08]10:17. 10:17.

[00:54:10]>> Assume there was a They were in a collision 7:00-ish.

[00:54:13]So, at least 3 hours later we we had to have it as yesterday. I don't know where it is, but I think it was yesterday.

[00:54:20]It's 10:17 at the time of tested blood alcohol. So, at 10:17 at the time of blood draw um I analyzed it and I got a value 0.08%.

[00:54:34]So, now if the individual's female 130 lbs, what I can do is uh determine one drink what the maximum amount of alcohol a person can have.

[00:54:48]If I can use my calculator to Sure. formulate the calculation.

[00:54:53]Okay.

[00:55:25]So, if somebody who is female 130 lbs if they drink one standard drink if you consider the standard drink is liquor um 1.5 oz at 40% alcohol the most that they can consume with one drink is 0.042%.

[00:55:46]That's the maximum BAC that can they can have considering it didn't get eliminated.

[00:55:52]Now, with two standard drinks, that would be a 0.084%.

[00:55:57]That's the maximum that they can have with two standard drinks.

[00:56:02]Now, would that be consistent if the person drank at 6:50 their last drink and then 3 hours later at 10:17 to have a result of 0.08%?

[00:56:15]Based on my experience, it would not be consistent.

[00:56:20]So, would that be consistent with someone that had consumed more than the proverbial two drinks? Objection, lack of foundation. Overall.

[00:56:32]Um the individual would have to have more than two standard drinks.

[00:56:55]Based on all the work you did in this case.

[00:56:58]Your analysis your report your lab report Lab report? Lab, L A B, report. Is it your opinion that Mrs. Grossman was at or above the legal limit for impairment?

[00:57:20]Objection, vague and ambiguous as to time.

[00:57:23]Sustained. Let me rephrase the question.

[00:57:25]Based on your testing, what did that show you?

[00:57:29]My testing shows that the blood alcohol level was at 0.08% at the time of draw.

[00:57:35]And what does that mean in your mind?

[00:57:38]At the time of draw, if the person is at 0.08% the 0.08% means to me that the person would not be able to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:57:48]And they would be impaired.

[00:57:50]At a 0.08%, they will be impaired to operate a motor vehicle safely.

[00:57:55]And the higher the level, the more of the impairment.

[00:57:58]That's correct. And the more the more drinks, the higher level, more impairment.

[00:58:04]That is correct. And when you're traveling a higher rate of speed the impairment, does it become less or more?

[00:58:11]Well, it depends on the alcohol level.

[00:58:13]It doesn't change based on the But at 0.08 versus someone that hasn't drank how would you compare the uh what did you say? The physical and mental in a person that hasn't drank alcohol versus a person that's at minimum 0.08 from blood taken 3 hours later?

[00:58:34]Well, so if you're comparing between somebody who isn't under influence of alcohol versus somebody who is under influence of alcohol anytime that somebody is at a 0.08% they are mentally impaired in regards to their mental abilities.

[00:58:51]That means their judgment, their decision-making their ability to process information their divided attention tasks, these are all impaired.

[00:59:02]That's your opinion in this case? Yes.

[00:59:12]Thank you, sir. Thank you.

[00:59:14]Why don't we take our afternoon break?

[00:59:17]Try to keep it right at right at 10 minutes. Do not talk about the case amongst yourselves or anyone else.

[00:59:27]Good afternoon, Mr. Chem. Good afternoon.

[00:59:31]What uh just at the end of Mr. Panish's questions, you had said that at 0.08 she's impaired. Is that Did I hear that correctly? Yes, as 0.08%. And that 0.08 and an impairment, that was at 10:17 as of the time of the blood draw, correct?

[00:59:53]>> time of blood draw, yes. Okay.

[01:00:04]I want to put up exhibit number 59, please.

[01:00:19]And I want to pull out the section of the test results that you had.

[01:00:26]And you did two tests and one was 0.08 and one together was 0.081, right?

[01:00:32]>> And then if you can pull out the sentence right after that and highlight it for me. The Let me just read it.

[01:00:40]Yeah, I just Okay, yeah, if you can read >> mind me, please. Okay.

[01:00:43]The average value of the duplicate analysis with its and with its expanding certainty is 0.080% plus or minus 0.004%.

[01:00:57]Thank you. And so what that statement means is that the blood alcohol content falls anywhere between 0.076 and 0.084.

[01:01:09]True? That is true.

[01:01:13]And it also means that it's just as likely that the blood alcohol level was under 0.08 as it was it was over 0.08. True?

[01:01:25]So what it means is that we have an uncertainty of measurement.

[01:01:30]That uncertainty of measurement shows an accuracy of a measurement.

[01:01:35]Of of a of a measurement.

[01:01:39]It shows a what of a measurement?

[01:01:41]An accuracy. Accuracy. So what that means is that if you measured a you measure something and you get a number there is a window where it's there's uncertainty to it.

[01:01:58]That uncertainty allows for accuracy. So in this case our uncertainty based on different environment conditions different based on using the different tools that we have in the analysis we found that our uncertainty is 4% in this case would be 0.080% plus or minus 0.004.

[01:02:33]And and again, this this is as of the time of the blood draw, correct?

[01:02:38]>> Yes. Which is the blood draw is 3 hours before the accident, correct? Yes.

[01:02:44]No, 3 hours after the accident, I'm sorry.

[01:02:48]Yes. Thank you.

[01:02:51]Okay.

[01:02:53]Now, your only role in this investigation was to analyze the alcohol, correct?

[01:03:00]>> Yes.

[01:03:02]And you testified that the majority of your work is analyzing blood and breath, is that correct? Yes. Okay.

[01:03:16]And you didn't do an an analysis of any breath in this case, correct? That is correct.

[01:03:32]Your lab received the vials on October 2, 2020, correct? I would have to look at the chain of custody to answer the question.

[01:03:45]Can you put up 58 for me?

[01:04:01]Yes.

[01:04:03]And then I believe you did your you got the vials on October 5, is that right?

[01:04:08]>> Yes. Okay.

[01:04:10]And when you got the vials and you opened them up did you notice that Rebecca Grossman's name was not anywhere on the actual vials? That's correct.

[01:04:22]And is it the practice of the Sheriff's Department when they bring vials to your lab that they write on there the name of the individual whose blood is in the vials?

[01:04:33]That is part of my training to the um law enforcement personnel is that to be consistent is that you want the subject's name along with two initials and the date of blood draw.

[01:04:50]However, because it's sealed, now it's up to the officer who is testifying on their behalf whether that blood sample comes from the individual that's named on the envelope.

[01:05:14]You did you tested the blood alcohol level twice, correct? Yes, that's part of our our policy.

[01:05:24]And the two tests that you did, did you use the same machine both times?

[01:05:30]Yes.

[01:05:32]And the two tests that you did, did you use the same methodology both times?

[01:05:37]Yes. Anything you did different between the two the two tests that you did? No.

[01:06:05]Now, Mr. Panish had you go through the hypothetical and and do some calculations.

[01:06:12]What I want to ask you is were you using a formula to do that?

[01:06:16]>> Yes. And what formula did you use? It's known as a Widmark Excuse me, a modified Widmark equation.

[01:06:23]Okay.

[01:06:24]And so it's a it's a modification of the original uh Widmark test equation, correct?

[01:06:32]>> Yes. And that result you get from doing the math that is just an estimate, correct? Yes, it's an estimate of a female that is 130 lb. Right.

[01:06:47]And if you wanted to to do it more exact, you would have to know other variables, correct?

[01:06:55]Can you be more specific? Sure. If you wanted to be more exact, for example, you would need to know what the stomach contents were for an individual, correct?

[01:07:06]Yeah, in order to do the calculation. When So you get your estimate, right?

[01:07:12]But in order to to figure out what the exact number would be, you'd need to know some other things, true?

[01:07:20]I just need to know um the gender of the individual the weight of the individual um and the Widmark equation we also use what is known as a row factor.

[01:07:34]A row factor is a number that corresponds to the movement of alcohol between blood and tissue. So for a female the row factor on average is 0.55.

[01:07:51]Um so I use an average row factor considering the individual is 130 lb female and then I determined if the person was a 0.08%, what is the number of drinks on average.

[01:08:08]So the number of drinks that I defined was a standard drink which is if it's liquor, it would be 5 1.5 oz 40% alcohol.

[01:08:21]And in this case, do you know what the evidence is of the drinks that Miss Grossman consumed? I don't. I just base it on the standard drinks.

[01:08:35]But if you were to ask me specifically, then I can also calculate that. And and you don't know what the evidence is as to when Miss Grossman consumed drinks, true?

[01:08:45]That is correct.

[01:08:59]When an individual uh consumes alcohol there's a there's a process that takes place and I want to walk through that with you of absorbing it and eliminating it. Okay?

[01:09:15]Okay.

[01:09:16]All right. So an individual will consume alcohol and then they they begin to absorb that alcohol into their system, true?

[01:09:24]Right, so um to be more precise the absorption of alcohol and the elimination of alcohol both occurs at the same time.

[01:09:37]However, the difference is that the rate of absorption and the rate of elimination will be different depending on where it is whether there's still the alcohol being in the stomach, small intestine versus in the blood.

[01:09:54]Okay, so if some let's just to keep it simple, you have a person has one drink.

[01:09:59]Okay, they stopped that drink, their body then starts to absorb it, that's called the absorption period, true?

[01:10:04]Right, so when they consume it, they're absorbing alcohol into the stomach.

[01:10:11]Or let me rephrase this.

[01:10:14]When a person consumes alcohol um the alcohol goes into the stomach.

[01:10:19]Now, in the stomach, some of the alcohol will get absorbed. So, absorbing means that the alcohol is moving from the stomach or any of the organ into the bloodstream.

[01:10:31]So, in this case, in the stomach, if it stays in the stomach, about 10% of it gets absorbed into the bloodstream.

[01:10:37]When you're consuming alcohol, because remember what I said, the alcohol is volatile.

[01:10:42]While you're consuming it and because the mouth is the largest opening of the body about 10% of that gets absorbed or excuse me gets removed or gets eliminated, but the elimination is different. It means that it gets the alcohol phase changes from liquid to gas. So, in this case, it gets evaporated and about 10% of that gets evaporated while you're drinking alcohol.

[01:11:07]Okay.

[01:11:07]So, the body absorbs it and then you have what um what described as the the peak level, right? Right, so the peak level means that that's the maximum amount of alcohol in the person after they consume the number of drink. Okay. And then from the peak, you have this elimination. So, if you had a uh a graph, you'd have it going up, it would reach the maximum point and then the elimination would start to go down, true? Right, so it it looks like a bell curve. So, it goes up, that's where they're the high end the alcohol's absorbing into the bloodstream. So, the the rate of absorption is very fast, so it's going up.

[01:11:49]So, the rate of elimination is very very small, so you'll see it going up and then after highest level of the bell curve that's where the rate is the same between absorption and elimination.

[01:12:02]And then it's coming down, that's where the elimination rate's going to be much much larger or faster than the rate of absorption.

[01:12:09]So, in that case, we called it the elimination phase of the alcohol curve.

[01:12:14]Okay.

[01:12:15]And the absorption phase um how quickly or slowly somebody absorbs there's various factors that go into that, true? Yes. Okay, those factors are the sex of the individual, true? Uh I don't know if it's also male or female. Um I know def- definitely that the what's in your stomach um also um will depend on will change the rate of of absorption.

[01:12:47]So, if you have an empty stomach, your rate of absorption into the bloodstream will be much much faster than if the stomach has food in it.

[01:12:55]And the [clears throat] type of food, whether it's food that has more fat, it take longer to absorb the alcohol into the bloodstream.

[01:13:03]Okay, so the stomach contents, that's that's one factor that would create that absorption. Um how about a person's metabolism?

[01:13:13]Um >> [clears throat] >> it's not so much as the content of the food the um type of food the time also um changes the rate of absorption.

[01:13:38]And you're referring to the uh time that they take to consume? So, what I mean is that the rate of absorption changes between morning to noon to evening.

[01:13:51]Uh with the same individual.

[01:13:53]So, you're talking about the time of the day, then? Right, time of the day. So, the rate of absorption changes, that's why there's no fixed rate of a person absorbing into the bloodstream.

[01:14:05]Okay.

[01:14:16]Now, um Mr. Panish uh gave you a hypothetical uh that somebody who stops drinking at 6:50 p.m.

[01:14:27]Um isn't it true that um 20 minutes later at 7:10, that person's still going to be absorbing that alcohol? Yes. And on that bell curve we talked about, their level of um alcohol concentration would still be rising? They will still be There will still be alcohol in the stomach.

[01:14:50]Okay. And since the individ- the person would still be rising um and absorbing it, you're unable to calculate um what the blood alcohol level would be, correct?

[01:15:04]Can Sure. Must elaborate on that.

[01:15:08]>> somebody stops having under Mr. Panish's hypothetical, somebody stops having the drink at 6:50.

[01:15:13]>> Yes.

[01:15:14]20 minutes later you would be un- unable to determine what the blood alcohol level uh is, true? That's true.

[01:15:25]And so, you're not telling this jury what Ms. Grossman's blood alcohol level was at 7:10 on the night of the accident, true? That's correct.

[01:15:43]Last area for you.

[01:15:45]Um You've done a lot of studies on the correlation test and made observations on intoxication and impairment, true? I have uh observed correlation studies. Um I was the observer but I have read numerous uh correlation studies. And and you've observed field sobriety tests and and been involved in that, true? I have observed field sobriety tests.

[01:16:14]Okay.

[01:16:15]And in this case um have you viewed the field sobriety of Ms. Grossman? No. Okay.

[01:16:22]You were not asked to um review the field sobriety and offer an opinion based on the field sobriety test? I'm not an expert in field sobriety tests. Okay.

[01:16:32]Thank you, that's all the questions I have. Okay.

[01:16:36]Sir, I didn't ask you to do anything in this case. You're not hired by me, are you?

[01:16:41]No.

[01:16:42]You're hired by whom in this case?

[01:16:44]Nobody.

[01:16:45]Right. And who were you working for in this case? The Los Angeles the County of Los Angeles.

[01:16:52]Okay.

[01:16:53]So.

[01:16:55]That question about, well, your test was at 10 uh Let's rephrase the question. The question that the blood was drawn at 10:17 and the accident happened at let's just say 7:00 and that 3-hour window, remember those questions counsel asked you? Yes.

[01:17:13]Is there any question in your mind that if Ms. Grossman had no more alcohol and no food that her blood alcohol content would have been higher than what it was 3 hours later?

[01:17:30]Objection, last foundation.

[01:17:32]Overruled.

[01:17:34]Um Do you follow the question? It So, if we're talking about this two drinks still Well Go ahead, you go ahead, you answer.

[01:17:53]I'm sorry. So, were you asking me a question?

[01:17:55]>> Yes. Okay. Was I still Yes, I'm still talking assume that wh- whatever Ms. Grossman said.

[01:18:04]Can you say or am I wrong that somebody stopped drinking 3 hours later, if they had no more alcohol and they've had no food the alcohol content would be down?

[01:18:17]Objection, hypothetical.

[01:18:20]It's also vague.

[01:18:28]Yeah, why don't you fix the starting point of your 3 hours?

[01:18:38]Okay.

[01:18:43]Counsel just said, oh, well, that blood alcohol that you took of 0.08, which is over the legal limit, correct? Yes.

[01:18:51]And it's still your opinion, no matter all those questions he had, that Ms. Grossman was under the influence of alcohol and impaired at the time she hit the two boys and caused their death.

[01:19:01]Objection, misstates testimony.

[01:19:03]Sustained. Is that your opinion, sir, that Ms. Alco- Ms. Grossman, while driving her motor vehicle on the night in question, was impaired and under the influence of alcohol?

[01:19:15]I wouldn't be able to give you an opinion. I can only give you an opinion on the level of alcohol. The level of alcohol that you tested was above the legal limit and in your opinion someone operating a motor vehicle at that level is impaired.

[01:19:31]Yes. And their ability to operate a motor vehicle and see pedestrians and travel at high speeds is compromised.

[01:19:38]Yes, at a 0.08%.

[01:19:40]And I think you said something like if you're a low I don't know if you said 04 but something What did you say there's a five times higher chance of being in a collision?

[01:19:51]Remember that? You said something like that.

[01:19:53]>> Yes. Tell us that. So the range is the somebody having an accident while while under influence of alcohol begins at an 04%.

[01:20:05]At 0.0 6% the likelihood is twice as much.

[01:20:11]At 0.08 it's three times uh likely and at 0.1 it's five times as likely.

[01:20:20]And then it increases exponential after that. Right.

[01:20:23]So if Ms. Grossman was higher than 0.08 at the time it occurred not three hours later the chances of an accident are increased more than the three times at 0.08.

[01:20:38]Objection, incomplete hypothetical.

[01:20:40]Overruled.

[01:20:42]It depends on the level of alcohol.

[01:20:44]Okay.

[01:20:45]But it's not getting better. It's not making you a better driver drinking tequila and going 73 or 80 miles an hour after consuming alcohol, is it? Well, if the alcohol's in the individual's system and if I know what the level of alcohol is then I can determine whether the person is impaired. It is Does a person get more safe, more aware, more ability to move their vehicle and perceive the more alcohol you drink or does it get less? It gets Overruled.

[01:21:20]It would be less.

[01:21:22]The more you drink the harder it is to safely operate a vehicle at a high speed.

[01:21:27]The higher the alcohol concentration in the blood the more impaired you are.

[01:21:33]Back to Ms. Grossman.

[01:21:36]If she had the blood tested at 10:17 You with me? Yes. Accident approximately 7:00.

[01:21:43]You with me? Yes.

[01:21:46]You take the test it's your testimony that when they draw the blood By the way, how do they draw the blood? First with rather. What is the best methodology to determine someone's blood alcohol content? Is it a breath test or blood alcohol test? It >> be on the scope.

[01:22:03]Overruled.

[01:22:05]They're both good.

[01:22:07]They're both good. Yes.

[01:22:09]Uh so somebody operating a motor vehicle in an impaired state that would be a violation of 23152 of the vehicle code of the state of California.

[01:22:25]Is that a question? Yes, is that true?

[01:22:27]Uh I believe it depends on the level.

[01:22:30]08 or above? Yes.

[01:22:45]Maybe you can't answer it. You could tell me but I'm trying to understand.

[01:22:51]The test is taken three hours later.

[01:22:54]Okay? We we agree on that from when the incident occurred.

[01:22:58]Okay?

[01:22:59]Yes, the blood draw and the test on the person.

[01:23:03]>> that the person and with the testimony is had no more alcohol. Okay?

[01:23:09]You with me? Okay.

[01:23:10]No food.

[01:23:12]You with me?

[01:23:15]Yes.

[01:23:18]Is it possible?

[01:23:20]Well wouldn't you expect the blood alcohol to have been higher in the three hours before the test was before the blood was drawn?

[01:23:31]Objection, incomplete hypothetical, lacks foundation. Overruled.

[01:23:35]It depends.

[01:23:37]What are the factors? So it depends based on the drinking pattern. When the person had last drink and then when that individual is driving. So you have to consider if the alcohol is alcohol still absorbing into the bloodstream.

[01:24:00]Um and then how much alcohol even though the person is in the regardless if it's the absorptive phase peak or elimination phase um if you don't know when a person had reached peak alcohol level you wouldn't know where on the alcohol curve the person is at and I wouldn't be able to perform this type of But in this case there's no question in your mind based on the work you did that Ms. Grossman was operating her motor vehicle on September 20th Excuse me, September 29th, 2020 while impaired on the roadway in California. Objection, this states testimony. Overruled.

[01:24:49]My opinion was that at a 0.08% the individual would not be able to operate a motor vehicle safely. Okay.

[01:24:56]Thank you.

[01:24:58]Questions from the jury.

[01:25:03]Okay.

[01:25:10]Mr. Kim based on all the uh analysis you've done in this case you could not tell us uh that Ms. Grossman was impaired at 7:10 p.m. on the night of the accident, true? Well, the impairment is different. So it's based on the alcohol level. I couldn't tell you where what the alcohol level is at the time of drive. Okay. Thank you.

[01:26:09]Mr. Kim When you did your calculation what was it that you calculated?

[01:26:17]I determined the number of drinks based on the known alcohol concentration.

[01:26:24]Not the number of drinks. What did you actually calculate?

[01:26:29]Cuz you were given the number of drinks.

[01:26:31]>> Yes.

[01:26:32]That was one of the factors. What did you calculate?

[01:26:37]I calculated the number of drinks.

[01:26:40]No. Let me Let me Can I ask you I think I know what he's what you're trying to get at.

[01:26:44]No, I don't. No. When when you did your calculation Yes.

[01:26:48]what does that calculation tell you?

[01:26:53]It tells me Okay, so when I calculated I based it on one standard drink and the gender [clears throat] of the individual.

[01:27:11]Based on that I determined with one drink what the alcohol level would have been for an individual maximum amount.

[01:27:20]Right. So you calculated the alcohol level. Yes. That's That's as in the BAC. Yes.

[01:27:30]And that was for 10:15.

[01:27:34]No. At the time of the blood draw at the time of the consumption.

[01:27:38]No, it's it's it's about if the person had one standard drink if the person is female 130 lbs if they consume one standard drink what's the maximum amount of alcohol they would have?

[01:27:55]When?

[01:27:57]Any time. As long as Any time after consumption.

[01:28:01]>> that one alcohol the maximum they can have is um what is the maximum that they can have with one standard drink?

[01:28:08]So in this case if they drank one standard drink and they're female and they weigh 130 lbs they would have to have at maximum a 0.042% alcohol.

[01:28:20]And then with two drinks it was 0.084% alcohol.

[01:28:26]When do you get to that maximum?

[01:28:31]The maximum is The maximum is an ideal situation where the person isn't eliminating alcohol. So that ideal situation is if the person had never eliminated alcohol the the most that they can have is with two standard drinks is a 0.084%.

[01:28:54]That's it.

[01:28:56]And that's the assumption you were given was that the alcohol consumption started at between 4:30 and 5:00.

[01:29:08]That was one of the drink.

[01:29:11]Okay, and then the second one was 5:45 to 6:50. Yes.

[01:29:19]So Did your calculate and then you did your calculation based on alcohol consumption occurring during those periods of time?

[01:29:31]No.

[01:29:32]No? No.

[01:29:36]Were those times relevant? No, it wasn't.

[01:29:43]All right.

[01:29:43]I'll I'll turn it back to the lawyers. I don't know I don't know I understand what you did. What I was asking you, Mr. Kim, was based on Mr. Roseman's alleged drinking pattern what the maximum blood alcohol would be without any dissipation or absorption.

[01:29:59]Do you recall that?

[01:30:00]>> Yes.

[01:30:01]And what you told us what the maximum would be without anything being absorbed. And any human being is going to absorb some of the alcohol, correct? Eliminating.

[01:30:11]Eliminating. Right. Dissipate. What's the What's the term you used?

[01:30:15]Dissipating, eliminating, evaporating.

[01:30:17]So no matter who you are, no matter how much you drink physics is determining how the alcohol absorbs.

[01:30:31]Are we talking about absorption or elimination?

[01:30:33]I'm just trying to understand.

[01:30:35]>> [laughter] >> Like I told you that chemistry was not my deal. Let me do it this way. My question why I asked you that was based on the claim of the two drinks >> Yes. and what should the resulting blood alcohol and absorb you don't believe that that individual's testimony that they drank two drinks is consistent with the results you had, correct?

[01:30:55]It's not consistent with the drinking pattern and the result that I had. Okay, thank you. Okay.

[01:31:05]I think you may have a answered this just now, but let me try [clears throat] as well. This is your question. For a 30-lb female, how long after consuming alcohol would the top blood alcohol level be reached?

[01:31:19]Well, it depends as I mentioned before or actually makes a bell curve with a question mark. Well, not necessarily. It's It's So, the absorption of alcohol it really depends um again with the time of day for that individual.

[01:31:37]It depends on whether the person had an empty stomach, food in their stomach.

[01:31:42]However, if they had one drink within 30 minutes I consider that to be social drinking, so it takes them from 0 to 30 minutes to reach peak alcohol, meaning that they completely absorb the alcohol and the alcohol's in their system.

[01:31:59]>> [cough] >> Just one other question in the correlation studies uh simulations that you talked about does it simulate unexpected events?

[01:32:14]And if so what did the correlation studies show?

[01:32:17]Uh I think you want to add for reaction time for unexpected events.

[01:32:25]Um So, the we don't measure unexpected time. We just want to see how the person had actually what's the difference between when they performed whether it's driving um how they performed before alcohol is into introduced into the system versus when versus when alcohol is introduced into the system.

[01:32:57]And we want what we see is consistency that when there's alcohol in the person's system there is impairments in their mental abilities.

[01:33:07]And what we want in what's important is these mental abilities are significant in playing a role in operating a motor vehicle safely.

[01:33:19]The ability to process information the judgment the decision-making the divided attention task.

[01:33:28]All right.

[01:33:29]Any other questions?

[01:33:34]Okay, so you're excused. Thank you.

[01:33:36]Thank you. Mr. Kim.