Selig provides a compelling Jungian reading that transforms Homer’s epic into a vital blueprint for modern psychological wholeness. His analysis effectively bridges the gap between ancient wisdom and the fragmented state of the contemporary mind.
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The Odyssey: Why We Need Odysseus Now
Added:John Celig, welcome. Nice to be with you today.
>> Yeah, good to see you. Been a while. Um, thanks for having me.
>> Yeah. So, we are here today to talk about The Odyssey by Homer and the major Hollywood film that is about to be released featuring Odysius, directed by Christopher Nolan. and talking about why is Odicius and the Odyssey showing up right now. There's been many translations of the Odyssey and each translation always brings a different way to take it in even when we just consider the opening line. So for example in the Robert Fagel's translation it begins singing to me of the man muse the man of twists and turns driven time and again off course once he had plundered the hollowed heights of Troy. And then there's a Robert Fitzgerald translation. Sing in me muse and through me tell the story of that man skilled in all ways of contending the wanderer harried for years on end after he plundered the stronghold on the proud height of Troy. And then there is the Emily Wilson translation.
Tell me about a complicated man. Muse, tell me how he wandered and was lost when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy, and where he went, and who he met, the pain he suffered on the sea, and how he worked to save his life and bring his men back home. So, the newest translation is going to be this really, it's an unprecedented film, and that's part of why this is such a significant cultural moment. It's the first narrative film to ever have been entirely shot on 70 mm IMAX film in this time period of great technological advancement. And and this did involve new technologies with them being able to have this this type of film on like lighter and quieter cameras. They can do this and be in all these locations. And [snorts] we're recording this on July 7th, which is the day after the world premiere. So, the film, as you and I are talking, has had its world premiere, but it will not be actually released into theaters until July 17th. Probably July 16th is we're talking about people are going to start being able to see it. So, we're not going to get into a big academic discussion today in, you know, in terms of the way people are already critiquing the film, like why are they wearing those kinds of helmets and why are those guys in that kind of armor and that kind of thing. We're going to talk more about, you know, why now and and why does this film and meaning matter so much. So before we get into that, I wanted to introduce you to the audience and find out a little bit more about you. You and I actually personally met for in person for the first time really interestingly as part of a group pilgrimage to s many sacred sites in Greece. We met in Athens on I guess the eve before going to the Acropolis actually to see the sacred site of Athena who we will be talking a lot about today and that was part of a group pilgrimage I was co-f facilitating with our friend and colleague Jason Holly who I know you've also worked with and gone through a practitioner program with. So yeah, what could you tell us about yourself and and your work? Yeah. Uh, thanks, Gray. So, I'm John Celig. I, uh, think non-stop about myth and symbol and archetypes and, uh, creativity, and I just, I love this stuff, you know? I write about all of this on my website and my Instagram, stolenfires.com.
Um, but I like to try to look at myth and symbol and turn it into a way of seeing, a lens that you can look through and learn about yourself and your life and the world. Um, and you know, these these texts are endlessly deep, right?
The myths for some reason are stories that nobody wrote that have survived for 3,000 years, 5,000 years or more despite systematic attempts to get rid of them.
And they still even today are the foundation of our culture. The Odyssey movie is the biggest movie ever in in several ways, you know, and it so it's crazy that no matter what, myths seem to be able to, you know, in some tricky way survive. Um, so there's so much more depth in myths than I think most people see. And so I have found it really fruitful and interesting in my work to sort of just pick at that like why what why how can how can one story hold so much how did it get there and what can we do with it. Um so that is my work in a nutshell.
>> And I think you also are putting together worksheet or a guide book to the Odyssey. Is that right? That's going to be coming out.
>> Yes. Thank you. I'm I have um 12 ways to read the Odyssey. It's a a little book of sort of questions and prompts to to make you look at the scenes and characters in the Odyssey in a new way.
You know, this is the it's not an overstatement to say that this is one of the foundational epics of our entire culture. Um why why is it so important?
It's more than just a cool story, right?
It it survived so long and has been used and reinterpreted and translated and uh performed in so many ways that any one scene is not just about one thing.
anyone scene might be about dozens and dozens of things, maybe inexhaustible numbers of things. And so this book is sort of just like a challenge almost like, hey, if you read this book, maybe you'll see some things a little differently and maybe you can see yourself in the Odyssey and and take that technique and apply it to other things in your life. That's the hope. So I'm excited about it.
>> Yeah. And that trip that you and I were part of going to all these sacred sites in Greece was really powerful. And interestingly also connected to the Odyssey. My wife Jeanie is is Greek and her father immigrated to Australia from Ithaki or Ithaca. That's where he was born and her entire fraternal family on on both sides is is from or Ithaca. So leading up to meeting you in person for the first time, we before the larger group pilgrimage began, we had come into Greece before that and we went to Aaki and stayed there and spent some time there, which honestly being there on that island was one of the most magical experiences of my life. It was certainly amplified because my wife was reconnecting with her ancestral homeland in really profound ways and we were actually able to connect a lot of things and find places and meet people that were part of her family while we were were there. And of course, Odysius is all overaki. There's there's so many statues. the place we're staying even had a little guide book that was was just a nice coincidence that was was sitting there that helped you map out and and find your way around the island.
Now, people listening, some people I know that are going to say that some people argue that that's not even the correct island, but I will say it's it's quite powerful being there. And for example, the cave of the nymphs on [snorts] that island is is extremely powerful place to be whether or not it is. [laughter] >> And I it gave a feeling though honestly of I I it's it's a really powerful place for sure that island.
>> I knew Genie was Greek. I did not know you guys were boopping around Ithaca right before the trip. I mean that's perfect. That's that's so cool.
>> Um and yeah, one thing about the Odyssey is people love to argue about it. Holy.
>> Yeah, that's another thing. [laughter] >> We can get into that later. non-stop.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So, let's let's get into it then. So, I mean, just to start with, you know, why do you think the DSCs is showing up right now as this hero of the most grandiose film really that's ever been been made as far as what the production is?
>> Yeah. You know, it's interesting because one of the things that I think you could say about ancient ways of thinking and experiencing is, you know, this idea of as above so below. Everything there is there's layers to everything. And what's happening here is sort of similar to what's happening in the collective. You know, what's happening between you and me is sort of maybe what's similar to what's happening in our families. Like this sort of idea of everything is nested and there are patterns that affect every level of that. So without going, you know, way too deep into that, it's really interesting that the Odyssey is being made into this grandiose glory spectacle, right? Because it's interesting the Iliad, the if you if you guys know the Iliad at all, the major theme, if you had to boil it down to one thing, is glory. Cleos doing the thing for which you will be remembered, right?
And the Odyssey is kind of an interesting twist on that because by the end of the Odyssey, we run into Achilles, the star of the Iliad, and he says, "Glory wasn't worth it. That's not the point. It's not what we should be doing." So, it's very interesting. Then this big grandiose version of the Odyssey, the story that's a little bit against glory, if you interpret it that way, which I think you can, has become this major cultural moment. But early reviews thankfully are saying that it's actually subversive and psychological and powerful. And so I'm I'm really hoping and I have a lot of faith in Christopher Nolan. I really do. He made the only good Batman movie, for example.
Just kidding. There's there's a couple good Batman movies. But I think it's really important for our time because Odysius is a very fascinating hero. You can say that he is the first modern man in one sense and you can also say that he's the last of the ancients. And what I mean by that, there's a lot of layers here. I'm trying to condense down a lot into just this little idea. But he is a champion of Athena. He's Athena's favorite. He's so smart and clever and plans ahead. He's got a lot of forethought. He's tricky. He he has a goal and he can talk and plan and make things go in that direction to some degree. But Odysius still remembers the gods. He still respects the gods. He still sacrifices to the gods. And so I think one important way you can read why is he a hero? Why is he a hero that has something to teach us right now? Is because he has this balance between the modern mind thinking, planning, strategizing, Cleos, um trying to make something of yourself, focusing on the future forthought, but he also, and I think this is the message and the lesson that he goes through in the Odyssey, is in right relationship to the gods and he makes the sacrifices and he learns and he even ultimately repairs with Poseidon, who we'll talk about in a minute. And so I think our culture today has overindexed on the Athenian, the strategy, the forethought, you know, the progress, the technology, all those things. And there's a real hunger for this other side. And so I think the Odyssey and Odysius teach us maybe how to learn to balance these forces within us in a way that's going to lead to more wholeness. Um, you know, because by many measures, our society is very sick. And I think one way to look at that is we are way over on this side and we've lost a lot of things over here, you know, and I think there's a big hunger for that.
Yeah. Well, that's a that's a great point. And so, and I one thing we we don't know right now and interesting maybe to come back and talk again after we've seen the film and see how the film's been received. We don't know how this film's gonna land with a >> right >> big audience and does it become a big spectacle that or does it become more of a cult film for certain people because it didn't do so well actually with the way it was received and so forth and we haven't actually even seen the film but it definitely looks like from all the trailers it's not it is focused on the Odyssey but it's referencing the Iliad and it looks like there's scenes from the Iliad from that story that's that he's kind of drawing in to show you how you know where this is all coming from.
What what more could you say of just about what's happening in the Iliad and and how that that leads into the Odyssey and and then how like you're saying the Odyssey is very much counterbalancing in a way or mediating this experience of this epic gruesome, you know, brutal war essentially in the Iliad.
>> Yeah, great great question. Um, I mean, I do think the Iliad, it's really about Achilles, and Achilles is the child of a goddess. So, he's a demigod. He He could be immortal, and he's at one point faced with this choice. Go to war and fight knowing he will die, but he'll have glory. Or he could live forever peacefully, and he chooses glory. Fast forward to the Odyssey, where I mean, obviously there's going to be spoilers here. The Odyssey is 3,000 years old, so sorry. Um, but at some point in the Odyssey, Odysius does a mini trip to the underworld. He sees Achilles and Achilles says, "I would rather live as the lowest slave on the lowest farm than be king of the dead." Right? There's no meaning to glory once you have died. And that's a shocking thing because it's the complete antithesis of what we got from the Iliad. And one of the ways people like to talk about the Odyssey is as a story of the first nostalgia. The word nostalgia comes from Greek nosto uh home and algos pain. It's the pain of either homecoming or being away from home or kind of both. And I think that's a beautiful etmology for our word nostalgia which is so powerful. And I think one thing you can maybe take away is that despite the fact that there's this grandiose story of Odysius sailing the seven seas and going to all these places and fighting monsters and sleeping with goddesses, the thing he really wants is to be home in bed with his wife. And I think the Odyssey is the story of figuring out that not only is that okay, that's the point. And so there's h dozens of layers of interpretation that we could be doing in addition to these. But I think that's an important thing to think about is our culture is really really progressoriented. How do I make more money? How do I get a better relationship? How do I, you know, buy a big bigger house or better car?
Whatever. Like we just have sort of, you know, the newest iPhone. Like it just keeps going like that. We just sort of naturally have become this very leftbrain ccentric culture. And I think one of the messages of the Odyssey, especially in contrast with the Iliad, is hey, the right brain stuff matters just as much, if not more. And so if we just real quick tangent, the the book The Master and His Emissary by Ian McIllchrist, um, sort of gives an update to the leftrain, right theory and sort of brings in some newer science into that. I think you can map a lot of the insights from that book onto these myths, the Odyssey being one of them.
And it's the struggle to find that right balance. And as a culture, I think we've lost the balance. And so I think hopefully if the movie does well and if people are able to see this and read it into the Odyssey in a way that they can resonate with, maybe it'll help just a little bit rebalance those scales just a tiny bit. You know, maybe that's my hope.
>> So when you're referencing that book, is that about how you integrate the left and right sides of the the brain?
>> Yeah, briefly. Um it's it's it just talks about the differences in the way the left part of your brain and the right part of your brain uh behave, right? Each one can do most things, but some, you know, the left is better at certain things and the right is better at others. The right brain tends to be more holistic, big picture, open to questions. Um you know, harmony musically happens in the right side of the brain, whereas the left brain is more discreet, cutting, distinct, facts, specifics. it can only hold one thing.
Um, it's very dut. And so, um, just through the evolution of culture, our culture has drifted more and more to the left brain because, you know, there's a lot of really powerful things we get from that way of being, right? You know, progress does require that. But the reason he calls it the master and the emissary is because until this very small slice of recent history, it was sort of like the right brain used the left brain as a tool. And now it's kind of flipped a little bit and that's where we're seeing a lot of the meaninglessness and a lot of um you know some of the problems we we are experiencing as a culture both here in America and globally. Um, you know, it's it's an interesting book and, you know, it's it it does draw on some really good science and I think you can this is what I do is I I read that book and I was like, "Oh man, this is what the myths are saying." You know, and so we can we can go into that more if it's if it's truthful. But, uh, it's it's definitely worth thinking about. You know, there's a balance between the right and the left. And, you know, as we're going to talk about, the Odyssey is a big balance between Athena and Poseidon. What does that mean?
>> Well, you know what? That could be one of those things that they're pointing at there.
>> Yeah. And so with the Iliad and just I'm assuming we sort of assume people know but just to do a little brief recap we essentially have Odysius as part of the Greeks. They are part of the invasion.
So they are essentially invading Troy. So he is part of this big invading army attempting to sack or decimate a very ancient holy city. And as as part of this really I mean it's an epic war. I mean it's it's total chaos and strife and even the gods are taking different sides of this of this war and battle.
Athena is very much though working with the Greeks and already teaming up with Odysius. In some of those battles, Odysius is is shown as somebody that in in a in a context of war, you know, there's certain points where it looks like the Greeks are being overcome and he's in there almost by himself or one other person fighting something off and, you know, he's willing to kind of throw himself into situations. He does this big night raid at one point that is like having kind of a turning point. So you'd say he's he's a very key player in that war. Obviously being part of an invading army, there's all this associated trauma, all sorts of things that he's gone through. There is this really key term though that what you're talking about are some people just going for this Cleos like you're like the the rage of Achilles is so central to the Iliad Achilles being this ultimate warrior and that idea of immort being immortalized with the sense of glory. So, it's sort of like dying in this moment of ultimate glory, like you're performing this act of glory and war being associated with that. And then of course there's all this I mean what's so wild is how long ago this is taking place and how we see the propaganda of war and people you know going off to war to achieve glory and then going through a completely horrifying experience in many ways that changes them for the rest of their lives. And there's a whole, you know, journey that people have to to come back to the world from, you know, going through that experience of war. So there's definitely something really powerful just about that concept alone, right, that the that the Odyssey is is is showing because we're when when the Odyssey is beginning, you know, he's on he's trying to find his way home. U he's not finding his way home. And part of that issue is one of the things we were going to talk about is Poseidon and Athena.
He's partially not finding his way home because of offending Poseidon. And he's going through all these experiences that we could relate to Poseidon. And with astrology that both of us also work with, there's definite Neptune processes that are going on with this. And he also has an ally of Athena who was with him during the war. As you're saying, there's many way he he he embodies aspects of Athena. He's always listening to her. He's always honoring her.
As you're saying, as as this ancient figure, he's sort of mediating these realms. I mean, one of the things that that I think we pretty consistently hear about Adysius, he's he's really good at sacrifices. He tries to stay in right relations with a lot of these gods, especially Athena. So, what could you say a little bit more about as far as what's going on? You can go through some of the plot if you'd like to, just what's going on in this story and and how do these two sides of Poseidon and Athena that sort of map onto what you're talking about about this integration and and balance that needs to be found.
>> Yeah, this is great. I mean, there's just so many ways in, but there's so many ways in, it's overwhelming. You know, one thing you reminded me of is there's this great scene in the beginning of the Iliad where the Greek warriors show up to Ithaca and they're like, "All right, Adysius, join up.
Like, it's time. We're going to Troy."
And he try he doesn't want to go. He's he's not he doesn't want to go to war.
He doesn't think it's justified. He doesn't think it's worth it. He like pretends to be insane so that he doesn't actually have to go, but they see through it and then he ends up going, you know? So, it's like I think that's an important thing to think about because true Odicius or whole Odicius or Odicius when he's rightfully placed on the throne in Ithaca kind of knows like war is not where it's at. Glory is not where it's at. You know, there are definitely anti-war uh ways to read these stories, you know. Um, you know, but to your question, I mean, I think people are probably getting this, but when we say Athena stuff or Poseidon stuff, uh, yes, the gods are characters in these books to some degree or in these stories, but they are more than that, right? They're patterns that are behind the way the world works. And crucially, they're also patterns in our psyches, right? And so, there are many things. The reasons they became gods are because they sort of this is tough to articulate. It's why we have mythic language, you know. But Athena things are, it's not just Athena the character, but Athena the character is a personification of things like civilization and planning ahead and strategy and wisdom, right? Progress, all those things um exist as sort of a cluster in our psyches and they tend to cluster together in families or in civilizations. And so it's you can see this level idea again the as above so below right um so the part of me that resonates with Athena is the part of me that also wants to go and you know make something of myself and go out in the world and be a contributing member of society and learn new things and um and there's like a a pattern there right well what's the Poseidon side then you know Poseidon is the stormy god of the seas you know in the ancient imagery he rules over horses earthquakes and the ocean. Like, wow. These are all things that'll kill you, but they're also incredibly powerful. Um, horses are an amazing way. If you can harness a horse, you can travel way more than anyone else who can't, right? Um, if you can harness the seas, you can explore the whole world. You get tons of bounty, buried treasure. I mean, you know, um it's a beautiful, beautiful thing, but if you don't have the right reverence for it, and if you don't co-create with it, your boat will be turned over. You will get caught in a storm. You'll get destroyed. The earthquake will take you, however you want to look at it. And so, I think there's a way to read Poseidon as these inner forces within us, the emotions that need to be co-created with, even if they're inconvenient. And I think that's something our society and the average person has gotten really bad at, right? Something horrible happens like let's god forbid a loved one dies.
Um we're back to work within 3 days. I mean that would be unthinkable to the ancient Greeks. I mean lamentations and weeping and festivals and you know it's it's just we we put the emotions that are are not welcome. We put them aside.
We push them down. Not even consciously, just we're in this flow of society that we don't have the time off. So what do we do? We have to go back. So it's it's sort of all of these things happening all at once. But long story short, you know, Poseidon is this raw emotional instinctual power within us. That's one of the things he might be personifying.
And if we don't give that an outlet, something bad's going to happen, right?
And that's just the way things work. We know, you know, with works like The Body Keeps the Score, um, we know that when you're traumatized, you you have to give it some kind of outlet or it will turn into something that either psychologically or physically manifests as illness. Um, and I think that's a pretty good image for what the story might be pointing at with this Poseidon powerful force, but Odysius loses right relationship to that, right? And so that's when we start to see the monsters. And so we can we can move further into that if you want. You know, and it's not just the Odyssey. In all of Greek myth, Athena and Poseidon are always at odds. In the founding of Athens, they both wanted to be the one in charge of that city and they said, "No, we're going with Athena." So, culturally, collectively, Poseidon has been repressed. Neptune has been repressed. And I I think if you, you know, speak astrology or symbolism, you can kind of see echoes of the same thing with the symbols we use. Um uh and so it's it's just a really fascinating powerful thing. And if you take the that frame to the story um it's amazing to watch the progress from someone like Odysius who is very Athenian, very in that level. He gets through the war through bravery and strength, but also through trickery, planning. He's constantly coming up with ideas. He lives in that world and gets really good at it and gets rewarded for it. And over that process, he's lost touch with what we might call the Poseidon side of himself. And so, you know, I think the Odyssey itself, he can't go home until he reconnects to that side of himself.
So, whether we read the story as symbolic or psychological or, you know, narratively literal, like you know, what what the text says is what happens in the story. You can see it from all these different ways. I think it's also an internal story though. I think um he has to learn to plate Poseidon. Not plate, what's a better word? To sort of reconnect with Poseidon um before he's whole enough to go back to Ithaca and be a proper king.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think you're speaking to where there can be symptoms showing up and you know what are these symptoms of and we think of them now in this medical way but this also would have been thought of as what gods need to be honored or sacrificed to. You and I were actually together at Epidaros, the s the sanctuary of Escapius, where people would go to seek these healing dreams and incubate and you know purify themselves and receive a message about their symptoms and in times it might be a particular god or something else that needs to be honored. One thing you brought up there that I'd like to touch on a little bit more is Athena and Poseidon and Athens even. So ancient Greece would have been all these various kind of fragmented city polus places and Athens was always like a real power place. There's other ones like Sparta and different kings are all being brought together for this war and it's it's very much like you're saying Odysius is like I don't know if I really this isn't why are we even doing this. It is sort of a personal vendetta in many ways that is is uh is driving this war happening in the in the first place in terms of Paris with the Trojent and then taking Helen of who he becomes known as Helen of Troy.
>> It's kind of a dumb war. It's like the archetypal pointless war. It's it's Yeah. Anyway, continue. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And so one thing I was making me think of too is even at Odysius, people aren't familiar with like the geography today it is it is removed. Um and people don't really go there either so much either. Uh there's a large island Capalonia nearby and you know some people wonder if that's more where it would be. You can get to that one a little more easily. you're essentially taking a ferry off to. But all of those islands over there, they're a little bit more removed. So he's a he's a king of these small smaller islands that are sort of off on their own, you know, from the rest of these these power places in in Greece, which is also just an interesting thing at the beginning to to think about a little bit more too as as far as like where he's coming from and where he's wanting to go back. He has his wife Penelope. he has his son Telmachus and that's you know part of the story that's playing out and but in terms of that really one of the real power places of Greece Athens like you were mentioning there is a there is a contest between Athena and Poseidon to see who will become the protector deity of that of that city and Poseidon offers this salt spring, which often seems to be one of his moves in myth.
Like he's often, you know, throwing a trident down and having to salt the spring gush out of the earth and people are not always as impressed in the myth as he, [laughter] >> right?
>> He's not often chosen uh for with that.
Um, but it's a really fascinating thing because we're having obviously out of the earth this uh spring is is like is this water gushing out. So there's almost like this correspondence to the deep sea and and this deep oceanic realm is um being brought to you. It's also you could think of the the mises and mount helicon and Pegasus striking the earth and this this the m the fountain this the spring of the muses gushing forth which is going to feed all this the inspiration of the muses which the whole story is you know they're calling for the muses to speak through them to deliver this story but Athena offers the olive tree which is this beautiful offering that has so many benefits and in in so many different ways. I mean, literally, it's food. It's it can be turned into the olive oil and many other things. So, there's all these aspects of like civilization that that olive tree is is uh feeding.
And when you when you go to Athens and and you and you go to uh the Acropolis, I mean, it is this it's really intense.
I feel there's it's it's an amazing thing to see, but I think all of us had the experience of it's not the the thing there's so many sacred sites and places you can go in Greece where you have these very mystical experiences that don't there's just a such a charge to this place and I feel you can really feel the collective trauma. I mean this is like a fort too. I mean, it's like this they survived on this hill at points and you know, she's up at the pinnacle protecting the whole civilization. Yeah. Is there anything more about just that that initial Athena Poseidon? We can see there that how that connects in with the with the Odyssey and and these two sides.
>> Definitely. Yeah, you said I mean there's a lot of great stuff to respond to there. Um, you know, I think a really great analogy, and this is true in the myth, is that Poseidon is the god of horses, the god of that raw power that will either trample you or you can harness and move forward, but it's immediate. It's it's now. It's the body, it's earth, it's animal instinct, power, what you know, and then Athena in myth, what does she do? She invents the bridal, right? So, there is a relationship between these two. And it's not Athena good, Poseidon bad, or Poseidon's the villain of the Odyssey.
No. Any god that gets ignored, repressed, or put in a box becomes a demon. I don't know who said it, but someone said a god ignored is a demon born. And I really think from from a mythic frame, that's exactly right. So any god, if you repress Aphrodite, she's got weird stuff is going to happen in your life. That's that energy finding a new way out because you didn't give it one. and it'll make a destructive way for itself if you don't give it one.
It's it's really true of all of these internal psychological archetypal principles. Um, I think it's really fascinating the example you gave with the, you know, Poseidon is going to Athens. You can almost just see the nerdy Athenians, right? They're so intellectual. They're so focused on progress. And, you know, Poseidon shows up. He's like, "All right, I got a gift for you." And then it's a salty spring in the middle of the city. And they're all just like, "Dude, we don't What are you doing? We don't want this, right?
Like I can absolutely see that because Athens is maybe our closest cultural ancestor in that sense. We don't want what is a salt spring but like tears, right? When you're having an emotional outburst, whether joy or sorrow, salt comes from our eyes. It is a manifestation of the uncontrollable immediate now emotion that's overtaking you.
Athens, the whole story of Athens, you said, is a great example of people being like, "No, we don't want this right now.
We want the the progress. The olives are going to make us rich, right?" And so, you can just see that happening. That's almost I feel like that's almost the the founding story of our culture, you could say. Um, and so it starts at the cultural level, right? Odysius isn't the first person to have dishonored Poseidon. Far from it. I mean, it it it was happening all through myth and I think, you know, Plato and the Stoics and other philosophers were poking at these ideas. You know, I'm not inventing this stuff. Um, and I think there's really a way to see it that way. And so, I think that frame, that back and forth plays into almost every scene in the Odyssey. Um, >> you know, and we can we can get more specific if you'd like. Um, because >> Yeah, I think but but before we do that, let's talk a little bit more about Athena. So then we and then we can we'll see how much time we have and how many things we can move through in this as far as the scenes go because Athena is is really one of the most fascinating uh deities to me and that there is I mean her and her story is quite incredible. Her mother is Metis. Her mother is wisdom. And it's this very cunning wisdom. Her mother is interestingly an ancient goddess. She's the daughter of oceanus and teies.
Teeth. And these are primordial deities.
These are some of the early titans.
There's some thought, I know I've seen some reading with some orphic interpretations that in some streams maybe they're even the al the original sort of progenitor couple more so than like Gaia and Uranus, which is Earth and sky, how we typically frame it.
Oceanness is sort of like the the ultimate limits like the sun sets out to oceanness. you know that this realm of oceanist is like far beyond when when a when a um Odysius goes to the underworld he has to like travel out to um oceanist and so it's like it's it's her father is like the like this ultimate you know limit in that way and teis is all you know streams of like fresh water and rivers and streams and so they're this very watery couple and and incredibly fertile and they they give birth to like progenative and generative and they give birth to all of the oceanids who you know down the line they become like the Niads who are amongst them the mother of Achilles and other figures that that show up in the in the Odyssey are like Calypso is sort of in this realm as well and and and it's important that Athena's mother is as well that is Athena's maternal ancestry and medicine's in fact so powerful you know literally wisdom um she is the first wife of Zeus and after so she is an early partner of Zeus who's at that point you know taking over as like the ruling deity and he learns of this prophecy see that the child that Medis is now pregnant with and is going to give birth to will overcome him or overthrow him just like he overthrew his own father Kronos.
So what's his solution? It's I'm [snorts] going to swallow medicine. So he basically devours and consumes medicine which is also this power move in a way.
He has just swallowed the you know primordial goddess of of wisdom which now has become part of him and this is you could even say this is why part of why Zeus is seen then as like the all know the one that knows everything and can hold all these timelines and you know every holding the whole order together because he's he's done this and when it's time for her to give birth you know he starts you know It's sort of the ultimate indigestion, right? Something's rumbling.
He's there's this child that's going to be born. And the gods, they all know this is like this ultimate moment. In some of the versions have Feistus, who's a son of Zeus, shows up with his double axe and, you know, cracks open the head of of Zeus as Athena shows up and and Athena is born fully armored. There's an amazing line by Roberto Colasso in the marriage of chemist and harmony where he describes like everything about this girl was sharp and something has now shifted in a way with with everything with her essentially being born out of his head. And although you might say the prophecy doesn't hap happen because Athena doesn't overthrow him as the ultimate warrior or ultimate ruler.
We do see in the Odyssey and other stories she if you know she always gets her way with her dad with with Zeus no matter if she wants something like she can figure out she is the daughter of Metis. Um it's also interestingly described she then goes to Libya. So there's even something about the way like Libya will often just be like Africa or or some other realm which obviously when you when you're in Greece you realize also like how close they are to Africa. So there there's some kind of interesting even connection there. But one of the things that I've thought about that's really interesting about this because a lot of times people will put all of this in patriarchal colonizing types of contexts and invas invasions and one culture in a similar way essentially swallowing another culture and forcing the assimilation. But often whenever that happens, that culture that has been sort of swallowed by this other culture that's come in, they can still end up sort of transforming or shifting or they're still present. They're still there in the land and among the people and they're doing something within that larger entity. There's something we could say about about Zeus who's who's sort of shifted by this. And while on one hand, Athena, like you're saying, she is going to favor the hero, she wants to favor the person who's taking that brave risk to seek the glory of their destiny or or you know why they're here. And she she sides with these heroes going on these big quests and helps them get through it. and she's incredibly cunning. Uh she is deceptive.
She's a shape shifter. She'll bend the truth whenever necessary. And we know Adysius is is very very similar. So there ends up being something really important here about how this starts playing out in the story. I I don't know. Is there is there a good example that comes to mind for you? I guess we should maybe say too, do you want to before a good example actually to to show this is maybe just talking about why how does Odysius offend Poseidon in the first place?
>> Yeah.
>> And what does that have to tell us about everything?
>> Great, great entry point. So, I have to reply to just a few things. And this is so dangerous. You and I getting together and just riffing on myth. We could be here for eight hours if we wanted to.
[laughter] Um, so there are more ancient versions of Athena that are primal and scary and natural, you know, and I think it's it's very interesting to see that each god, yes, they sort of operate in these polarities sometimes, but they're also whole unto themselves, right? Like Poseidon is a lot more than just, you know, the way he's uh portrayed in the Odyssey. You know, there's so much more to that that god, that archetype, that force. Um but because of the compensation happening we see that side of him. Um and so you know just a couple of things like in one version it's Ephesus that opens up Zeus's head so Athena can be born. In another version it's Prometheus um and sometimes you know Prometheus and Ephesus seem very close. It's interesting. In some versions, Prometheus is said to be a child of Mus.
Uh, which is interesting. And the the Meththeus in Prometheus, right? That part of his name is the same root word as meas, right? So, there's some cluster going on here. It's like it's like trying I feel like the myth is sort of trying to describe how true wisdom evolves. And it's a mix of trickiness, but it's not just trickiness. And, you know, to get really out there, I think Athena is a goddess. I mean, we have we have gods of intellect. We have gods of trickiness. Why is Athena so specifically Athena? It's a very specific set of images. A female goddess wearing golden armor that rules the polus. It's kind of an interesting flip of what we might expect. Um >> also weaving weaving would be another big thing, right?
>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um you know and all of these things are receptive in some sense. true wisdom and true intellect is always open, always listening, always assimilating, always bringing things in, right? And you know, we can get into big archetypal discussions about how Jupiter's style of ruling is more like that and and and how different figures connected to intellect in myth highlight different pieces of that. And then like you said, Athena's kind of who ends up in charge, right?
maybe in na maybe not in name but in ancient Rome she was one of the capito triad the top three um and I think if you read between the lines there's sort of an esqueologgical bent to the odyssey it's talking about the end of an age it's talking about this is when the gods really start moving inside or even underground um and that's why Odysius is such a hero is because he's one of the last you could argue that is properly mediating I have an advanced intellect like we think we do today. And I'm also honoring the gods, seeing the gods, working with the gods, and co-creating with the gods. He's the pattern of that balance. And he it's hard one. It takes the whole damn odyssey. Um, and you know, I think we've lost that, but I think you could say the prophecy came true a little bit because we're so ruled now by progress, the polish, civilization, pro development, all intellect, these things. Um, that the gods have kind of been not not defeated.
I don't want to say that. Don't strike me down. No hubris, but like there's it's certainly different than it used to be, right? I think we could all agree on that. So, I think all of those things are tied up in in the things you said.
And I just love playing with those connections because one of the ways I see myth is it's like it's everyone grasping to sort of slowly evolve these stories to make them better and better and more resonant. And that happens sort of in a few ways. One is when they match the shape of our psyche, right? There's something about these stories that sticks way more than if I just said, "Hey, there was a sailor 3,000 years ago and he had some PTSD and then he, you know, went back and was king." Like, that would be forgotten in an hour, right? And the way we tell that same story keeps it alive 3,000 years and now it's the biggest story in our It's crazy. Um, you know, and then I think myths also encode useful things like how knowledge works, why wisdom has to be receptive, like all you know. So anyway, that's a big you just totally >> I love listening to you talk about myth because you just give so many little tantalizing hooks. Even the Orphic interpretation of Oceananis and Tethus, you can tie that to Absu and Tiiamat from Mesopotamian mythology because the two progenitor gods there are two big primordial water beings, you know, and so it's really interesting to look at those threads and be like, what are they [clears throat] grasping at? What are >> what are we all trying to tell each other over this 5,000-year game of telephone?
>> Yeah. And I and I wanted to bring that up a little bit because there is something where Athena sort of carries this with her. So like I don't want to also cast Athena as just in a lens of she's just this over rational um >> right >> uh she has to be used in these negative ways of of the negative manifestations of oppressive dis uh manifestations of civilization and progress because this really instinctive inner wisdom I think that's one of the things and also that she's connected to this really deep well of ancestry which is really sort of you know what's been essentially swallowed by these these type of figures or entities in that kind of negative way.
Um, I think that's one of the things that's really alive to me right now is because I think we are at this moment of so much is changing. If if we just look at the geopolitics changing, the technology changing, we don't know where all this AI stuff is going. Exactly. But we're we definitely are at a place where things are really rapidly changing in uncertain ways. And just like Odysius being lost and trying to find his way back, this type of intelligence she has that can shapeshift, that can bend the truth. You can call Odysius a liar. You can call her a liar. But there's a way of like how do we combine this this like deep imaginal instinct, but also this this intellect like you're saying that can strategize that can have forethought that can help co-create and participate with what we want to create as a community and a civilization for the the betterment of people, right? in in those kinds of ways because Athena is definitely a figure that can come in to help us with this.
>> Yeah.
Uh but just to go back then to the um when Odysius is there anything because one of the I think I feel like the main place where I might be wrong about this but I feel like where a lot of the symptoms and where Poseidon starts coming in more and more strong is after the Cyclops episode. Right.
>> Yeah.
>> So yeah, how how would you essentially the son of Poseidon? Yep.
>> So, how how does that that scene >> which I think is probably even if people haven't read the Odyssey >> that that scene is it's so much we're just it's one of those interesting things. We're so saturated by it even if you've never >> heard of this story. You've probably somehow heard of that or know about that whole scene. Yeah.
>> Right. Like I don't know if the Simpsons ever did it, but they probably did. You know what I mean? Like it's one of those scenes that's so classic. It's it's it's just out there. Um and yeah to your point Athena is not bad. Athena is totally necessary. Any god taken too far to one extreme or you know turned into an instrumentalizing way of doing something uh you know can become corrupted because these are just psychological forces and patterns about how the world works. So you know I mean there may be more than that too but but you know um it's important to not hear it as Athena bad, Poseidon good or vice versa. Um, and it's hard though because in the story, Poseidon bad ostensibly.
If our hero is trying to get home and Poseidon's not letting him, it seems, you know, that's bad. But we're going to we're going to develop that. We're going to make that more nuanced. The Cyclops um is really the moment where um I think I mean it is the moment where Poseidon is invoked by name, right? I think there are this is bubbling beneath the story, no pun intended. Um, but I think that's the moment it becomes undeniable. The Cyclops is an amazing piece of the story. Um, you know, Odysius and his men end up trying to find some food. They go into this cave. Turns out the cave is uh owned by this Cyclops. Uh, Polyphimmis, let's say he's a 12- foot tall giant with one eye. Um, monstrous, almost like a troll. Um, and you know, Odicius goes up to him and says, "Hey, hey, uh, you know, we are humble guests. Like, please show us some kindness and we'll be on our way." Uh, that is the law of Zeus.
You know, that's what they call Zenia.
Very important concept. Maybe we'll come back to it if we have time. Um, and the Cyclops says, "Why would I care about Zeus?" Right? Um, and he just absolutely brutalizes Odicius's sailors. He picks them up and brains them against the pavement and eats them and chops off their chomps off their head. Um, it's a visceral, nasty, brutal scene. Um, and so long story short, Odysius comes up with a plan, blinds the Cyclops, pokes him right in the one eye, and as he's making his escape, he says, you know, my name is Nobody, right? So the Cyclops starts screaming, "Nobody is hurting me. Nobody is hurting me. And all of his Cyclops buddies are like, well, that's good. Nobody's hurting him, right? And so they don't come to his aid. And they're just like, that's weird, but okay. And so by being nobody, Odysius was able to escape.
But hubris, glory, Cleos, pride, needing to be bigger than he is overtakes Odysius at the last possible second and he says, "Hey, Cyclops, it wasn't nobody who blinded you. It was I, Odysius of Ithaca." Um, and the Cyclops says, "Oh, dad." And so it turns out the Cyclops is a child of Poseidon. and he has his father Poseidon put a curse on Odysius that he will only get home if he goes through the most trials a man could bear or something like that. Um, and so it's kind of interesting, right? Like why would Poseidon have a oneeyed giant as a child? There's no myth of Poseidon fathering this creature. There's no myth of you know Poseidon getting with a monster lady or you know he's not why is he associated with this monster and others too. Um there are many many possible answers to this question. The one that resonates with me the most is that if we think of what does Poseidon mean? He's the salt spring.
He's the emotions. He's the wild forces in us and outside of us that need to be given space, that need to be experienced, that need to be co-created with. And if we fail to do that, something bad's going to happen, right?
If we don't look at the weather, our ship is going to get overturned. If we don't let ourselves have emotions, something is going to happen. And I think the monsters are a way of imaging the negative side of what happens when you repress one of these forces. And so the Cyclops shows up as a child of Poseidon because the Cyclops maybe represents the end result of not giving those things a channel in your life. So where is Odysius coming from? The moment before they got to the Cyclops, they just sacked another city. Odysius even said, "I regret this. We were violent and cruel for no reason. Why did we do that?" That is a scene immediately before the Cyclops encounter. So, another interesting thing is the narrator never ever says, "Hey, there's a big cyclops with one eye over there."
The narrator tells most of the story or well, [snorts] a bunch of the story, and he never mentions monsters, but it always switches to Odysius's perspective, retelling the story. That's when the monsters come in. That's when Cersei and Calypso come in. Those are always spoken through Odysius's mouth, not usually from the narrator. And so that's interesting, too, because is Odysius making this up? Is Odysius using mythic language to describe what he was going through? Is a cyclops that eats his sailors a symbol for how he was feeling inside and being an irresponsible captain and something happened? Like, we don't know. But I think there's just this link. If the Cyclops is a child of Poseidon and we have a sense of what Poseidon might mean, if we don't let Poseidon do what he needs to do, a monster is the result.
And that will have negative effects. And I maybe this sounds like a stretch, but I think there's precedent for each of these things in all of myth, especially Greek myth, especially in other ways of of reading these things. And you know, the symbolism is is coherent if we compare it to similar examples elsewhere. But I think if you just sit with it, it resonates. They go right from doing a war atrocity and then they go to the Cyclops and say, "Hey, we're, you know, we want guest hospitality. We're we're humble guests according to the laws of Zeus. You should you should take care of us." And the Cyclops says, "Why would I do that?" And of course, because they just came from a place where they didn't do that, so why would the Cyclops, you know, there's like a you can see the pattern trying to form. Um, >> so that that that Zenia hospitality, I mean, that's one of the things I think that why the Cyclops are portrayed as these wild univilized monsters because they don't uphold that concept. And so that concept of Zenia would be that's one of the things we were going to mention is as a particular theme that could be really relevant for today. What could you tell us about a little bit more about Zenia and how that connects to all of this? Yeah, absolutely. And it's important because we translate it as hospitality or you know guest host relationship something like that. But it's really much bigger than that. They the the Greeks looked at it as sort of a cosmic contract like sort when something shows up you you and this was literal. When a guest showed up at your house, total stranger, you don't know them, you weren't expecting them.
Someone shows up at your house, you welcome them in. You welcome them in.
You make them dinner. You prepare a bath for them. You give them a bed and you do not ask them any questions. That was truly what they did. That was the law of the land. That was the culture. That was what was informed. And a lot of aspects of the way the world worked back then were depended on this. You couldn't travel if this wasn't a thing. And so that idea that whatever shows up at your door, you welcome it, right? that's had has practical and you know small implications for just the human realm.
But if you look at that psychologically when something shows up you welcome it even if it's not what you wanted. When an emotion or a realization shows up in your mind or your body, you welcome it and you let it do its thing. Then maybe you deal with it tomorrow, right? But we don't do that. We immediately push everything aside, right? I mean, the example I like to give is like I sit down at a coffee shop and I have a deadline, so I'm trying to get my work done. I'm on my laptop. I'm cranking away. And then this old man sits down next to me and decides to tell me his life story. And I'm like, dude, like I'm polite. I'm friendly. I go, hi. Yeah.
And then I try and get back to work and he will not let me, right? This person has just shown up in my space and is demanding my time and attention. And I say, you know what? Okay. So, I I have a great conversation with him. And as he's leaving, he gives me his card and says, "I think I've got a job for you."
And then he leaves. Right? because I welcomed that guy in and he was an unexpected inconvenient thing. But because I in that sense had Zenia, something unexpected and wonderful came of it. Right? That's sort of the idea.
But they took it not just to the level of people, but to the cosmic level, right? To the psychological. Um, and the idea was you never know who's actually a god in disguise.
>> And that tradition actually goes beyond just Greek culture. You can see echoes of it in in Hebrew culture and beyond.
Um, it's very interesting. So this idea of Zenia wasn't just like, "Hey, be nice to people." It was like the cosmos depends on openness, right? And we talked a little bit about that with Athena being feminine wisdom because wisdom depends on openness to new information. And Zeus's rule is a specific kind of rule different from Uranus and different from Kronos because his rule depends on openness. everyone gets to live in Zeus's rule, whereas Kronos and Uranus pushed everyone down.
And so it's very interesting, you know, this idea of Zenia almost can't be overstated how important it was and how much bigger it was than just be nice to strangers, right? Um, so endless things to think about there.
>> Yeah. No, that's great. I mean in prior for time we can keep it there but I think people can probably tell how like that welcoming is such a issue everywhere right now as we're talking you know that's so many things are going on around that and that is absolutely I think one of the really interesting underlying reason for Dissus to show up and the Odyssey to show up now and it'll be interesting how that actually shows up in the film Um, >> I guess it's very similar to the Poseidon thing, right? So, that old man showing up and being inconvenient, >> I wanted to push him away, right? When the urge to cry shows up in a business meeting, >> you you push it away, right? That's what we do. And that's be that's become our pattern for everything. And so, I think it's very similar to the core pattern we see throughout the rest of the Odyssey, too. Zenia is just a higher cosmic version of it, you know. So, anyway, sorry, please continue. Oh, no, that's great. I was thinking then with the rest of the story and you know from that moment of leaving the Cyclops, are there other what I'm just thinking of any other episodes you'd want to go into and and look at? I mean there's this very in in a way we could well actually our our uh friend and colleague Jason Holly has done just making me hurting me that he's done entire talks and workshops about Neptune in astrology connected to this story and a lot of the a lot of Neptunian processes and that's a total way that you can work with this story and episodes involving Cersei the which ultimately takes him to the underworld and calypso on this OA and you know she's essentially immortal trying to immortalize him.
There's also even when he eventually leaves and is trying to find his way back and he he gets and caught up in this huge storm and looks like he's going to possibly die. He is rescued by Luca who's often described as being one of the the nerads in some versions who's connected to the same water realm of these beings. And she gives him a magical veil which essentially again it could be like immortalizing if if he were to keep that magical veil you know it would be an opportunity to become an immortal and you know he gives that back.
There's something there that's also connecting us back to what we, you know, even interacting with Cersei and how she leads them down into the underworld. He sees Achilles and Achilles is like, I'd rather just be, you know, alive and and going through is I'm just wondering, yeah, what what would be any any of those scenes or anything else that really stand out to you to to talk about how some of this shows up?
>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean archetypal Neptune as we talk about Neptune in astrology is absolutely here like present through all of these right like but if we continue speaking in terms of the Poseidon side of us that we repress that's part of it too a great example is the lotus eaters right Odysius and his men get stuck on this island where they just eat these like lotus plants and then just numb out it's like drugs it's drugs or alcohol it's actually a very thinly veiled metaphor I think uh which is rare for myth. Um, and so what is that? It's distraction. It's numbing.
It's avoidance. It's addiction. It's all the things we do in Neptunian process to avoid feeling the the big nasty thing we buried. The the guest who tried to show up and we pushed away. That's all happening, right? And so, one of the ways we do that is we have PTSD symptoms. Maybe that's the cyclops. One of the ways we do that is through avoidance, numbing, addiction, and repression. Maybe that's the lotus eaters, right? Um, Calypso, what what is that um about? Well, there's many ways, many, many ways to interpret it, and I don't want this to turn into a TED talk, but Calypso, her name means hidden. Um, in Norse mythology, the goddess hell, where we get our word hell, um, it's the same protoindo-uropean root all the way at the top. Hell, kell means hidden, covered. Um, and so that is another I think example of how we nept in a Neptunian way avoid dealing with this unwelcomed guest of of immediate emotion, right? And what is Calypso's Island? He's there for, don't they say it's like 5 years? It's like 10. It's like some crazy long time.
>> It's a long time. I'm not remembering the amount right now, but >> neither. But it's way too long, right?
And it says, "All day he cries and cries and cries, and then at night he makes love with the goddess, which is so interesting." Um, you know, I think kind of like how the narrator never talks about uh the Cyclops, I think making love with the goddess is maybe more of a metaphor here. In other cultures, sleeping with the goddess is a metaphor for for death or grieving or dealing with death as a concept. So, I think that's very interesting. Um, but >> also Cersei Cersei too because she is like the daughter of of Helios, right?
She's the daughter of the son and she takes him. I mean, she she's the one that shows him how to get to the underworld. So, >> Right. Right. Yeah. It's amazing, you know. And so, in in the Calypso version, it's just wallowing, grieving, the feeling that grief will never end.
That's a Neptunian experience. you're swallowed up and devoured by just this covered dark cave of existence for who knows how long. I think it's funny we both forgot because who knows how long.
That's how grief feels.
>> Um, >> you know, and I think the the Cersei version is is even more complex and interesting, right? But it is ultimately something like by getting in touch with our lower animal instincts. It's the way forward to the realm like maybe the underworld where we can then finally reconnect something like that. But it's it's long and complicated and I'm not as sure about that one because myth is hard, right?
>> One thing that's also interesting about those two is Hermes showing up in both cases. I think those are the two main places that Hermes comes in. And I know when I was younger and learning astrology and then thinking about myth, that was one of the things that always really stood out to me where I know this is way the story comes predates astrology, but it seems like a really obvious place where um that mediation of Mercury and Hermes, you know, to help us sort of move out of this because in this each case he's also sort of stuck. He's >> when we're talking about these Poseidon Neptinian process. These are a couple places where he's also like not really the story is not moving forward. He's kind of looping in a way and then there's this Hermes mediation. Is there anything about that that you've >> thought about that? Yeah, >> I'm really glad you asked because I wanted to and I forgot. Um my one of my favorite scenes is after 5 years or 10 year however long Odysius is stuck with Calypso. Um Zeus is finally like okay come on let's go. The story is getting boring. Hermes go get him. So Hermes gets to Calypso's island and he's like gh I hate it here. He just is the last place he wants to be. And I think that's so interesting because we typically connect Hermes and Mercury to attention, the intellect, right? The, you know, the power we have to focus in different places, you know, um, externally and internally, above and below. Um, and it just makes perfect sense that the attention and the intellect, it's the last place he'd want to go. He has to face all the crap, all the years of grieving and sorrow, and he actually has to face those emotions. I just think that's so poetic that Hermes is like, "Gh, I hate it here. I don't want to go.
Let's get out of here." Like, um, it's finally facing that thing that you've been pushing aside. I mean, I think it's a beautiful image of that. And again, Hermes and Cersei, Cersei's a tougher one, you know, like the moly. It's sort of like you have to charge her with your sword so she, you know, so she knows you're serious but don't actually hurt her. And then you have to make love with her and you have to have this plant.
It's it's a very strange It feels more like a ritual to me.
>> It's like a ritual. Yeah. It's like a almost like a spell. Yeah.
>> Right. Right. And so I almost wonder if it is preserving an actual tradition or or or ritual or something like that.
>> Um you know, so that one that one is I have a couple of theories about that, but they're a little more little they're not quite done yet. Um there's >> Hermes also in astrology, you know, moves between everything. It can be classified as any type of category. And >> it's that plan planet that's always mediating these more irrational rational sides of the dreams and the business of the day. So it really makes a lot of sense that Hermes is like intervening in those situations. It occurs to me be before we end this, we do need to talk about Penelope and because in the because she's we haven't I'm realizing we haven't gotten to her yet and so the entire time >> we need we can bring yeah tell >> so that can come in with us too but the entire time she is there and she's surrounded by the suitors and this would get back into the Zenia thing as well and the basically the all these suitors are just taking advantage of the situation and they're all wanting to be the new king and they're eating up all the resources and food and they're trying to persuade her to pick them to be the new king. And she comes up with this cunning trick of weaving this tapestry that you know once she finishes this she'll she'll make her choice. But she's always weaving it and then she's always unraveling it and among other things. This definitely is evoking fates and the weaving and unweaving of you know threads of destiny and fate and so forth. And by that constant weaving and unweaving which could also we could think about probably like realms of like memory and everything else. It's basically creating the situation for the whole story to happen and for the DS for after you know 19 or 20 years to finally find his way home because that's I mean it's it's really that long that she's having to keep this up. So yeah, what what about that aspect of the story do you think with with uh Penelopey as well as Telmachus's son if you want to bring him in too? Yeah.
>> Yeah, it's um you know both of the I mean Tmicus and Penelopey are are probably as important to the story as Odysius. I mean you really can't underell them and we you know we should probably give each of them an hour or two and you know so we you know we'll do the best we can. I love what you said. I totally agree. I think Penelopey is almost cosmic, right? She's weaving and unweaving in the same way the fates are weaving and unweaving. And at the end of the story when Odysius finally comes home, she tests him and she says, "Well, you know something about like, let's go move the bed." And he's like, "What do you mean move the bed? I built it around an olive tree. We can't move the bed."
What an what a weird thing. What is that about? Nobody builds a castle and a bedroom and a bed around a tree. What the heck is that about?
>> Very interesting.
>> That's amazing. Yeah, [laughter] >> it's an incredible image and it's very Athenian, but also if you look at the night sky >> and you see, you're fortunate enough to be able to see the Milky Way pillar, right, bursting through the constellations >> like a tree through a house. I mean, it really I think there's an actual astronomical constellational uh you know, cosmic layer to this, you know, and it's not complete. It's not saying, "Hey, that's what that is, so we solved it. We're done." It's one of the many ways they they assemble all of these resonances into these stories that just get deeper and deeper, right? And so I think there the the there's a very common thread of ancient belief where the health of the nation is tied to the well-being of the king. And so in Odysius's absence, well, he's off at war and then he's falling apart for 10 years trying to get home. Penelopey very literally is holding the fragmenting pieces of Ithaca together as she's doing all this. And it's cosmic, it's local, it's uh the tapestry, the pattern. And you know, it's Ithaca itself. It's it's Odysius's soul. I mean, you could look at it in so many different ways. And there's almost an alchemical thing happening here, right, with the Sawway and the coagula and them finally reuniting at the end. Um, so I I mean I think and one of the interesting things we didn't have time to get into is all development of this story comes from women, comes from the feminine, right?
We have Nazakaya, the young feminine. We have Penelopey, the wife. We have he meets his mom in the underworld. What a powerful image that is. Everyone's mom is in the underworld, even if she's still around, right? Because, you know, just ask Freud, right? A lot of of what we get is informed by our parents at a young age. So, our underworld, the past, the things that inform us that we can't really change, right? There's elements of that there. So, Odysius has to face his mother in the underworld. He didn't even know she died. He didn't even know he'd lost touch with her. That's a very powerful thing. Odysius wasn't even aware he'd lost a major connection to the feminine. That's really interesting.
you know, the Nazaka's mom, um his his nursemaid, all these feminine Luca, um Cersei, Calypso, it's all everything is just comes from these feminine characters and of course Athena. And so I think the story is almost less about Odysius sometimes and more about understanding the archetypal feminine in this grand way, which is very important.
And if we lose the feminine, we get the kind of Cleos glory seeking progress only forward forward forward me my legacy behavior that we see in the Iliad when it goes too far or that we see in our culture when we lose touch with all the other stuff, right? And so I think part of the medicine of the Odyssey is reconnecting to the feminine and allowing in being receptive to the guests that try to show up even when they're inconvenient. even if it's tear ants at a picnic or tears at a business meeting or whatever you want to call it.
Um so I think all these themes subtly interrelate in this beautiful tapestry for a lack of a better word um to just continually flesh out these pictures. I I don't know that's that was a lot. I hope that made some sense.
>> Oh definitely. And there's certainly a lot more that that we could say about it but again just to try to get through a couple other areas her son too. So that's another aspect, right? Like and his he's like missing his father. We we know at least we're assuming this is going to be a big part of the film and what ends up happening.
>> Yeah.
>> Um yeah, I can I can speak a little bit about Tmicus. Um or Telmachus, I don't actually know.
>> Yeah.
>> I've been confidently mispronouncing Greek names my entire life, so your guess is as good as mine. Um, so basically I think one of the angles you can take is that Ithaca is a land without a king, right?
Tmicus is a boy without a father, right?
He's also he doesn't have a backbone necessarily yet. It's not, you know, he's how could he, right? And so there's sort of like this also analog with the way the mind works. you know, we have this mind, but it needs an ego to structure it. Or, you know, the the Olympians need Zeus to order it. You know, there's all these like microcosmic patterns of this idea of like there's a thing that needs something that will organize it and bring it order. Um, and you know, the culture is going through that, right? Like you said, in the Iliad, it begins with all these fragmented citystates that, you know, it's just vaguely the AANS, but they're not unified in any way. They wouldn't have known what the word Greek meant at that time, right there. And so, or or helenic or however we want to say it.
Um, and so there's this idea of these things needing to be brought together in like the Penelopey pattern way, but then there needing to be something to sort of manage that, right? IA needs a king. a country is only as healthy as the king is well. Um, and I think we're seeing variations on that. Now, Tmicus is the frame. He's very clearly a boy missing a father with an underdeveloped ego. He can't stand up to the suitors. They'll eat him alive, right? Um, you know, it's actually there's a scene where he's kind of a jerk to his mom. I don't know in in the early in the Odyssey, [snorts] he says something to his mom and a lot of people are like, "Gh, why is he being so rude to his mom?" But the way it's done, at least in in one translation I've read, is that she's like, "Oh, okay.
He's growing up. He's got a backbone now." Like, it's a it's a individuating action for him to say no and put his foot down. And I think Tmic is learning how to do that and both literally getting his father back, but also developing an ego.
>> Um, >> I think there's something going on there across all these different levels, you know. Well, it makes me think of something that's been with us in this discussion that's literally branded on your hand, uh, which is Saturn.
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um, because Saturn in astrology is has a like universal association oftentimes with the father. That's pretty I mean I I almost want to say everybody says that everybody may not but it's one of the very like widespread things is you can look at the chart and you can interpret this the placement of Saturn has something to say about the father and it does occur to me one of the things that's so powerful about this film coming out now which is one of the things that's just really wild to me we before we go we'll look briefly at the astrology is that this year we we just had this Saturn Neptune conjunction in the first degree of Aries which you can't really get anything more powerful for that in a place. So there's there's something collectively we're living through right now with Saturn being in this place of Neptune and which possibly does involve this sort of solution or solutio alchemical phase you're you're describing where something about our relationship with Saturn has it's also Saturn in a tropical zodiac in Aries which is its traditional placement of fall where Saturn is essentially brought down low.
It's not it's the opposite of being exalted.
So there's a clear Saturn collective astrological transit issue we're we're all going through right now in this Neptunian that's in completely engaged in a Neptune process. So I do think that's another interesting connection with what you're speaking of.
I think with with Tmicus having to basically gain that Saturn function for he has a missing Saturn in a way or >> he's absolutely that's yeah wandering and caught up in Neptune essentially.
Yeah.
>> Right. Right. Well, and to bring it full circle, I think I think our culture is lacking the proper >> father, the proper king, and and I don't want to get into like the politics or the, you know, archetypal things apply to everybody, right? And so I think the good king as the Odyssey is trying to teach us by the end is someone who makes space for both sides. The whole thing is Odicius learning to embrace the feminine, learning to embrace the Poseidon side of life with the Athena side of life and to co-create with all of it. That's the type of hero, the type of king that can help an ailing nation like Ithaca where the suitors have gone in and they're not really taking care of things and something needs to change. I, you know, I don't know why this story is for this moment, but I think you don't have to stretch that hard to see another way that it connects. And so, um, I think that's where we started, right?
Why is Odysius the hero for this time? I think why is the Odyssey the story for this time? I think it's a a search for the right kind of guiding principle, right? We don't we can say monarch or king or ruler or leader but it's it's a search and an understanding of what makes proper rulership. What makes proper guidance and how do we find that and how do we instill that in ourselves and in our groups and in our families and in our cities and in our country and beyond. Um so maybe that's a good place to to pause because that that is a book end. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's look at I do have a couple charts we can look at real quick before going >> Oh, right. Yeah, for sure.
>> So, on the screen right now, I have the chart for the world premiere of The Odyssey, which essentially happened yesterday. Now, this is set for about 7:30 p.m. in London. I do not know if this is when the film was actually shown. I haven't been able to track that down yet, but there was this big red carpet event apparently. Then Christopher Nolan got up on stage and and and said some things, made an introduction and then they showed the film. It could have been earlier than this, more like seven or maybe I don't really know from a whole sign perspective maybe though. There's a good chance it could have been Sagittarius rising. But what what I think is really fascinating about this being the day of the world premiere. One thing that we can say with absolute certainty is that the moon was in the very beginning of Aries, not too far from where the Saturn Neptune conjunction happened in Aries, applying towards a conjunction with Neptune in Aries. very likely moving from a trine with Jupiter and Leo into that conjunction with Neptune and Saturn is also there in Aries. Of course, Neptune is actually stationing right now as you and I are talking, which is actually hilarious, and you probably could have led with that, but just in terms of talking about Neptune, we are talking at this intensified presence of Neptune everywhere right now. And it's it's pretty fascinating that they the world premiere of this film is a Neptune stationing event.
Later in the month >> Yeah. Later in the month, Saturn will station. So yeah, I mean it is a manifestation of this this Saturn Neptune. It's it's unquestionably Neptune stationing means applying to it really. Interestingly though, Palace Athena I have that the asteroid on here too. She is right in there also in Aries along with them. And we have this very powerful alignment happening. We we just had Mars and Uranus together and Jupiter's now in Leo. So this really powerful configuration of Jupiter opposite Pluto and Neptune sexile Pluto.
Jupiter trying Neptune. Uranus trying Pluto. Uranus sexile Neptune and all of that. and and Mars setting it off, which obviously makes sense with this film coming out. So, it's it's it's a really incredibly powerful chart. And there's also something pretty fascinating that Mercury's retrograde at the world premiere, too. I kind of love that, honestly. Um something about >> That's a cool chart.
>> Yeah, that that that Mercury retrograde in Cancer uh really speaks to that raing and unraveling of Penelope. Yeah.
Anything else about about this that comes to mind to you?
>> I mean, you said it. Mercury retrograde in Cancer. Sounds to me like the part where he has to go to Calypso's island and he's like, "Gh, get me out of here."
Right. Like that's I see that right there. Um, you know, the Jupiter Pluto opposition I think is a very powerful powerful moment. And I think there's a reason this movie is as big as it is and why it's happening now. And if it's if they pull it off, there's so much it could teach us, [laughter] you know, and let's hope that it's more than just a a big Hollywood blockbuster.
Let's hope there's some meat on those bones and we can really think about it for a long time after. That's my hope.
That's my hope.
>> It has a potential to pull in the wisdom and principles of Jupiter placed in Leo.
and >> if they do pull all that off, but no matter what, it's very archetypally resonant with the film. And so that's the world premiere. And then just to show, you know, we don't really have a chart for the release. This is showing like a noon time chart in London just because that's where they did the world premiere on July 17th. Friday, July 17th is the official release date, but you know, likely the day before it will actually be available for people to go out and see films. It's it is interesting though that at this point just with the lunar cycle the moon at this point has swung through the new moon. It'll be a waxing moon for most places on this day. The moon will be in Virgo with Venus. So it's it's bringing in some uh Venus connections. And what's really wild though is that this July 17th date when we're speaking of that powerful configuration of Jupiter, Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus, it is when all of this is coming to be exact.
There's >> it's like a mathematically perfect paper hat. I don't know what we call that, but [laughter] >> I like I like the paper hat. And for people that don't know astra I mean there's I haven't been able to find any other time really where there's been a conf configurations and transits are always unique but this one is really unique for them to all go exact like this in these waxing phases at the exact same time in a time period where we recently had Uranus and Neptune and Pluto all change signs and we recently had Saturn and Neptune between forming a conjunction and the first degree of the zodiac. I mean, you're you you really can't find that uh they're all less than a degree apart, right? Like from perfection, right?
>> Yeah. At this moment, they're all becoming exact. You can see the Uranus Pluto trine is just about going exact.
And there's still some other ones. It's it's basically between like I think July 15th and the 24th that everything in this all goes exact and and this is a moment where Yeah, it's it's it's it's wild. But I mean, it's the kind of thing where it almost makes you wonder if they knew this or if it's just that we get this unprecedented film that's never been done before with, like we're saying, one of the most ancient stories that's lived on for >> ever.
Um, >> astounding. I mean, what a synchronicity. Or they did it on purpose. Or the archetypal forces were just so strong it had to be this way. I mean, however you hold it, it's incredible. Yeah, >> we talked so much about Zeus and Poseidon and the underworld and progress. I mean, those are the words we probably said the most other than Athena and Odysius. And you can see those in the in that configuration, you know, Uranus, Jupiter, Pluto, and Neptune.
It's crazy.
>> Yeah. And and that this goes back to this time period. You know, people talk about that Bronze Age collapse of what the Iliad is speaking to and this is a civilizational type of collapse that it's hearkening back to and there's certainly something about the way we've been that's collapsed like we're obviously in this transitional period right now. What's also interesting is it's within a month of this film coming out, we will get an eclipse, a solar eclipse in Leo. So I I do think that's another interesting element. The film will already be out. People will already be seeing it. But we're also when this film comes out, we're we're like within a month of le something about the the sun in Leo with the south node being >> being on the side of the south node, you know, being eclipsed. So there there's even like this Leonic Leo solar function.
>> Yeah.
>> That's being eclipsed. And that that really speaks to I think what we've been talking about as well. It >> be very interesting to see what happens that day.
>> Yeah. Well, um I did also bring up a poem that I think I will read to bring us to a closer. This is by CP Kavafi.
It's just a really beautiful poem. And when I was [snorts] in Ethaki, I was looking at this poem and I have to say I really had the experience of it actually being there.
As you set out for Ithaca, hope your road is a long one, full of adventure, full of discovery.
Last draggonian, Cyclops, angry Poseidon. Don't be afraid of them.
You'll never find things like that on your way. As long as you keep your thoughts raised high. As long as a rare excitement stirs your spirit and your body. Lastian, Cyclops, wild Poseidon.
You won't encounter them unless you bring them along inside your soul.
Unless your soul sets them up in front of you.
Hope your road is a long one. May there be many summer mornings when with what pleasure, what joy you enter harbors you're seeing for the first time. May you stop at Phoenician trading stations to buy fine things. Mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony, sensual perfume of every kind, as many sensual perfumes as you can. And may you visit many Egyptian cities to learn and go on learning from their scholars. Keep Ithaca always in your mind. Arriving there is what you're destined for. But don't hurry the journey at all. Better if it lasts for years. Still you're old by the time you reach the island.
Wealthy with all you've gained on the way. Not expecting Ithaca to make you rich. Ithaca gave you the marvelous journey. Without her, you wouldn't have set out. She has nothing left to give you now. And if you find her poor Ithaca won't have fooled you, wise as you will have become so full of experience, you'll have understood by then what these Ithacas mean.
>> Yeah. Phenomenal.
>> Yeah. So I think that that does speak to a lot the even the sensualness of the perfumes and the body and the lived experience. There's something about all that being incarnate, you know, finding our way home again to that idea of Ithaca. Yeah.
Really speaks to I think what we've been talking about.
>> Absolutely. No, that's such a powerful poem. Um and um you read that perfectly.
I bravo. Like not a stumble.
>> [laughter] >> Um, yeah. And I mean there's so many ways that I mean that poem is a beautiful interpretation of many layers of everything we've been talking about and there's dozens more beyond what we said today. So, you know, I think, you know, nothing we said here is like the last word. If if anything, it's just one invitation of one angle we could take.
Um, and I think it's just I'm so excited to see what comes of it. And you know, let's hope this story can actually get people, the movie can get people living this story in new ways because that's what it's for. So, yeah.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Well, I know we're going to put a link below so people can check out your guide book and and connect with you that way. I think you also do consultations. Is that right?
[clears throat] >> I do. Yep. I do uh creative consulting and uh occasionally I'll do archetypal astrology or tarot readings. Um, my website is stolenfires.com and stolenfires is my Instagram. You can find me there and um, I just love working with people who are trying to be creative and helping them bring some archetypal depth to what they're working on. So, >> okay, awesome. Well, I'll put a link to your site below so you people can check that out. Thank you so much for being here with me. I'm looking forward to seeing what actually comes with this film. It'll be really fascinating. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Thank you, Gray. That was awesome.
I feel like we could have talked for another three hours if we if we had the opportunity. Maybe we can connect after we've both seen the movie and and do a follow-up because I think that I think it probably is going to be pretty interesting.
>> Yeah, absolutely. That sounds like a good plan.
>> Cool. All right. Well, thank you so much.
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