Writing Fear & Emotion That Hooks Readers ... with Becca Puglisi (The Emotion Thesaurus)

[00:00:02]Welcome to the Spar Girls podcast, the self-publishing podcast for authors.

[00:00:06]You're in the right place for the best writing, marketing, and publishing advice, plus interviews with industry experts and bestselling authors. I'm Cheryl Phips.

[00:00:14]>> I'm Wendy Valor. And I'm Trudy Jay. And this week, we are here with Becca Puglesi. Say hello, Becca.

[00:00:21]>> Hi. Hello. [laughter] >> Welcome. Hello. Um, now Becca is one of the authors of the amazing emotional thesaurusi. How do you is it thesauruses or thesaurus eye? I feel like >> I know thesaurus just feels really pretentious to me because who actually uses that word? Do we just say thesauruses? It's the emotion thesaurus.

[00:00:43][laughter] Bunch of thesauruses.

[00:00:45]>> Sounds good to me.

[00:00:46]>> Excellent. And I've got almost well and now I've discovered I have to purchase a new one because a new book on fear is coming out which I'm super excited about. But I you probably can't see them in my thing now, but they're in there in my in my bookshelf.

[00:01:00]>> I think I've got 10 of them or something. Sounds about right. Um >> nice.

[00:01:04]>> Anyway, sorry, Becca. I'm going to read your bio and um introduce you to our listeners and then we're going to get right into the questions on um emotions and in particular fear, which I'm super excited about. So, Becca Puglesy is an international speaker, writing coach, and best-selling author of The Emotion Thsaurus and other resources for writers. Her books have sold over 1.4 million copies and are available in multiple languages, are sourced by US universities, and are used by novelists, screenwriters, editors, and psychologists around the world. She is passionate about learning and sharing her knowledge knowledge sorry with others through her writers helping writers blog and via one-stop for writers a powerhouse online resource for authors that's home to the character builder and a storyteller's roadmap tools which all is very exciting >> very cool >> yeah yeah so a lot of awesome um things for people to be using when they're writing so that's fantastic Becca we're I appreciate you [laughter] for all the things that you're putting out there it's fantastic Fantastic. Um, >> thank you. You know, we just our name says it all. We, you know, we've learned a lot and we've grown a lot and only through uh the goodwill of others really in the community that the writing community is. And so, you know, we try to we we try to to put out things that are going to help um and that's what we want to do is just help writers become better writers. So, >> yeah.

[00:02:28]>> Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:02:29]>> Awesome.

[00:02:30]>> So, tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:02:31]Like, how did you get into publishing the emotion thesauruses? This is um [laughter] sorry trying to go all the way through the interview there.

[00:02:42]>> I know. I'm not [laughter] going to say that word at all ever. Um yeah.

[00:02:46]>> Um yeah, we uh well I I started writing fiction in uh 2004. Um and I actually write these books with a writing partner with Angela Acriman. She lives in Canada. Um, and we met at Critique Circle, which is an online critique group, uh, where you go and you can read other people's work and find the work that you like and and you become, you know, connected that way. And, and so that's how we kind of started our our collaboration. and we start a blog together and made the rookie mistake of of for our fiction writing writing all about writing which you know they all say don't do that because you know you want to market to your readers and we were you know writing for fiction at that time but it worked out great because we >> that was what we were excited about you know so we started blogging about that and and we thought you know let's um >> let's do this uh these lists of emotions that we've been keeping we had found in our fiction writing when we were critiquing that our characters were always doing the same things over and over. If they were sad, they were always doing certain things. If they were angry, they were clenching their fists.

[00:03:54]If they were confused, you know, they were shrugging. It was they were always doing the same thing. And we couldn't think of any other way to express those emotions. And so, we started keeping these lists of what people do when they're angry or sad or confused. And that was just kind of between the two of us as we were critiquing our own work.

[00:04:09]And we decided that we were at the blog, we were going to put up one emotion a week and we were going to flush it out and make it this big long, you know, list of ideas for for other people who might be having that same problem. And lo and behold, it was kind of a universal problem. Everybody who uh who read it was like, "Oh my gosh, I have this problem, but my characters are always doing X, Y, and Z." So, it was it was a problem that that was really common among writers, and there wasn't really anything that was addressing it.

[00:04:35]And so, that was how the emotion of the source got started. Um, and we had kind of a big response to it. People were very excited about it and started saying, "Oh my gosh, if you could put this in a book, then I could have it all together." And that's when we were like, "Okay, well, let's write a book." And that's what we did. [laughter] >> You know, it it did fairly well. Uh, so we decided to write more books about, you know, the things that we were struggling with that we thought other people might find helpful, too. And that was how it all got started.

[00:05:01]>> Yeah. Wow. It's a brilliant idea.

[00:05:04]>> Yeah. Brilliant idea.

[00:05:06]>> Do you still write fiction, too?

[00:05:09]not right now. Um I just have so little time and it's it's hard to to kind of juggle it all and this is >> doing very well and it's very rewarding to be able to um to to to write and use the skills that I have. I was a teacher before I was a writer so it's kind of like dovetailed really nicely. Y >> and um being able to help people and and do something [clears throat] um that feels really good. Um, so for now, this is what I'm I'm focused on.

[00:05:38]Eventually I'll I'll try to get back there.

[00:05:40]>> That's awesome.

[00:05:41]>> Nice.

[00:05:42]>> I'd love to pick up where you were there teaching about all this kind of stuff.

[00:05:46]I'm like, >> come to New Zealand. Do that. [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:05:51]>> So, >> yes, I would be happy happy to do that.

[00:05:54]>> Okay. Well, we'll just have to organize a conference.

[00:05:56]>> We'll put your name forward for the next conference.

[00:05:58]>> Perfect.

[00:05:59]>> You just You didn't just say we're going to organize a conference, did you?

[00:06:02]>> I didn't say I was going to organize it.

[00:06:04][laughter] Trudy did that.

[00:06:08]>> Um, what Okay, Becca, what's the most one of the most common mistakes you see when when writers trying to put emotion in their books? Like, what do they what's one of the things that you hear yourself saying over and over again to to people?

[00:06:20]>> Um, it probably would be some form of inauthentic emotion. um either there's too much emotion, you know, we make the mistake of of feeling like, you know, we we know it's important to get the character's emotion across because that's how the reader connects with and starts to empathize with the character um when they can kind of connect with their emotions or the situation that they're in. And so, it's really important to accurately convey the character's emotion. And so, it's it's a little bit hard sometimes to do that.

[00:06:49]And so people will overconvey, you know, they will get really obvious and you end up with melodrama and you end up with responses that don't really make sense and and consistent responses that kind of tire the reader out like, okay, you know, all of this high emotion, it's too much. So that's a very common mistake that I think a lot of people make. Uh, the other one is the mistake that Angel and I were trying to correct is that just not knowing how to express it. It's it's it's it's it's basically um told most of the time, you know, we we are afraid of our own ability to to convey the emotion accurately. And so we we come right out and say it, you know, he was angry or um she was frustrated and those that's just another form of telling and and it does get the emotion across, but it doesn't pull the reader in. And so it kind of robs them of that opportunity to build that bond. So very very important to show emotion. Um, you can do that through the character's thoughts because our thoughts are very honest. You know, we're not tempering or censoring our thoughts. You can show that through um body language and what's happening. You know, you're the the character saying words, but but their actions kind of show how they feel about what's being said and through um even internal responses. those those knee-jerk visceral reactions that happen um when someone is frightened or when they are struck with grief, you know, you have these biological things that happen in the body that you can't really control. And so when you can show those things happening, it's a really good way to to show the emotion to readers and make it really clear to them without ever having to say what it is. Um that's probably the biggest one is just getting people to understand how important it is to show and not tell when it comes to emotion.

[00:08:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember hearing that advice though and I um when I was a younger writer and I thought it meant I had to take all of the thoughts and everything out and I was trying to show emotion by clenching fists and tightening of lips and things like that and I there's a balance right like you kind of need to do sort of all the different things that [clears throat] you were explaining about rather than just relying on say body language which is kind of what I did for a period there. Yeah.

[00:08:55]>> Yeah. vehicles that you can use and if obviously it's true for so many areas of storytelling but when you vary your methods it's much more effective. So mixing all those together is is the best way.

[00:09:06]>> Yeah.

[00:09:07]>> And we tend to overwrite as well you know like when we're don't we overwriting's huge you know like when we want to explain something instead of a good body emotion or a good thought we tend to just throw words at the page. I know I'm guilty of that sometimes. And it's just like you've actually just got to work out, you know, >> what you feel.

[00:09:26]>> Yeah. When when Angela and I were critique partners, we would write um write back in the day when we were writing on each other's manuscripts, we would we would put ru in the margin for resist the urge to explain, >> which is um I think we got that from self-editing for fiction writers. Um but that was because we again we're we're doing the same things that I think everybody struggles with in in the beginning particularly is that we would um we would show wonderfully what was going on but then we would tack on like a little bit of telling just to make sure we were totally clear everybody got it >> and you know resist the urge to explain that's very common. Yeah, definitely.

[00:10:03]And then, yeah, it's so many so many things um with with emotion in like there's I feel like there's two different things that you're trying to accomplish. There's the emotion of the reader as they read what you're reading, what you're writing, you've written, and then the emotions of the characters. And sometimes it's the same, but sometimes it's like as the reader, you kind of can see something coming and you're like tensing up, but the character themselves doesn't see it coming, for example. or and maybe there's an an emotion that the character is feeling that maybe the reader isn't necessarily going to feel in that same way. Is that do you feel that's something we should be thinking about or are you how do you deal with that sort of distance and in with the emotions? Does that make sense? Do you get what I'm >> Yeah, for sure. I think that the character emotion is um it's just intrinsically tied to the reader emotion if we write it well. um we can write a a great story, but if the emotion if we don't get the emotion right on the page, the reader's not going to connect to the the character and they're not going to get into the story. So, I think it's just all about um finding that balance of how to show the emotion, how to get it across um so that the reader picks up on it. And they may not be feeling, you know, if the character's sad, the the reader may not feel sad, but they're going to get a twinge of that. It's almost like a like a a reflection of it, just a little hint of it. Um, and a lot of it is is just a it's a shared response, you know, that they have been sad before. Maybe they have experienced something like the situation that the character was in and it creates this like emotional memory for them. And so that again, it just it creates a connection between the reader and the character. And um I don't when I'm writing the character emotion, I'm not actively thinking about the reader and what I want the reader to feel because I know that if I if I get the emotion right for the character, then that's going to come. Um so that's kind of why we focus a lot on on showing and not telling the emotion and creating, you know, the right circumstances where the the emotions can naturally evolve. I mean, that's part of it too with with story planning is you want your character to get to a certain place and you want them to experience certain things and certain emotions are going to come up because of that and and you orchestrate the story to get them where you want them to go and you know if you're writing the emotion well then the reader comes along for the ride.

[00:12:26]>> So setting plays a big part in that too I guess. Yeah.

[00:12:30]>> What's that?

[00:12:30]>> Setting with setting. Yeah. So like a dark night you're walking along you know that sort of thing. So that would also be another contributing factor to the fear, building the fear, right?

[00:12:43]>> Yeah, there's a lot of actual opportunity in the setting. Um, you know, if you because you have a lot of choices. Um, the overall setting sometimes is kind of determined by the story that you're telling, but you have a lot of opportunities for for different settings in your story. And if you can choose ones that have uh that are emotionally charged for the character, that have some kind of uh connection either good or bad, then it automatically amplifies the emotion that the character is going to be feeling and kind of primes them for having bigger responses, more emotional responses. And so it's very smart to think strategically about the setting and the settings that you choose and even seating um things in the setting for the character to interact with. you know, if there's something there that that that triggers a memory or that um triggers a fear, you know, I mean, there's lots of ways that you can set up your setting to uh create that emotional environment that's going to give you what you want for the character in the story. It's a good point.

[00:13:42]>> So, if you know that a character is scared of clowns, you know that they have to end up somewhere at an emotional point at the at the fun fair or something, you know, like where they're going to interact with clowns. I don't know. But there's that kind of setup that you have to build into it so that when that moment comes where you want them to experience this particular emotion, it's all been there in the Yeah, that's right.

[00:14:04]>> So, so let's talk about fear in particular. What was it about fear that made you decide to do an entire thesaurus on it? Like what was it? Um why?

[00:14:14]>> Yeah, we were really looking at um kind of where the gaps are and what we have written about. I mean, we have this is our our 11th book. Um, and and we have touched on a lot of different things and the one the one thread that I think is super super important to every really good story is is character arc. Um, if you're writing a story with a change arc, obviously where the characters going to undergo this evolution. And so, we've touched on different pieces of it.

[00:14:42]We wrote a book with about emotional wounds and we have one on character traits and we've written other thesauruses that haven't been published on motivation. We've got the conflict thesaurus and one of the things that we realized was was that we hadn't written anything about fear as it plays into character arc. Um so the fear thesaurus is is there is a lot of information in there about how to write fear well. Um but there's a a big chunk of it that's dedicated to the role that fear plays in storytelling as a character arc element.

[00:15:13]Um that it contributes to the character's arc which contributes to the arc of the story. Um it's really kind of foundational actually. So we have like fear that you know that you're feeling but then we have the greatest fear that the character is struggling with. So it's kind of two different kinds of fear that we we touch on in different ways in the book.

[00:15:32]>> Yeah. So we're not actually talking about necessarily like fear like in a horror movie where you like jump scare kind of fear. You're talking about like those kind of the fears that come up like the kind of emotional fears from a wound or something like that that we've had from the not a not a physical wound, an emotional wound from our past.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:15:51]>> Yeah. It's really both. I mean, we we talk about um where fear where a great fear comes from. Um, and then how it kind of train wrecks the character's life and derails them and starts to motivate them and push them in wrong directions and it digs them into a deeper hole that they have to get themselves out of, but they're afraid to face their fear. And so they continue on in dysfunction until eventually they're able to face it and, you know, overcome it or [clears throat] at least learn to manage it. And so there's that whole piece of fear, that whole part of fear that plays into the character arc. But fear itself, whether it's a big huge fear or just the emotion of fear, is um it's a common thread that we all experience as people, you know, it's a it's a universal factor. And so using it in our stories and being aware of what the characterser's fears are and how they respond to fear, all of that. When we are aware of that and we can write it into the story, we end up with a character that's really authentic >> and that reads well to to readers and that they can connect with because they they understand being afraid. they understand having this thing that they know they're they're afraid of and they don't want to admit it and they they see that they're they're in big trouble if they don't face it because they have been in that situation themselves. So, it's really about tapping into the universality of fear. Um whether that's fear as an emotion or fear as as a thing that they have to overcome.

[00:17:14]>> Um understanding all of that I think is is really key because you can you can have a a great story premise, one that's really compelling and provocative. Um, and you can write the story, structure it out, and plan it really well, but if you don't have a a character that's believable and that's uh relatable, people aren't going to connect to the story. So, the character, in my opinion, is like the the biggest piece of pulling in readers and and creating a a really memorable and long-lasting story and getting the character arc right is huge and fear is a big piece of that.

[00:17:50]>> Yeah. M >> so that's um that part of it is so how do we do that successfully? How do we start with this character and create a something that they would because we're not talking like for me I'm terrified of sharks like you know that's that's not the fear that we're talking about. We're talking about like the kind of linking into those emotional wounds which is one of your other books.

[00:18:11]>> Um and and kind of having that fear of kind of putting themselves out there or it's a very particular kind of fear. So, how do we >> Yeah, these are the the fears that are really um detrimental, you know? I mean, you could be afraid of heights or afraid of clowns. Um, and those things are real, but that's not that's not going to derail the character's life really, you know. I mean, they're just going to they're going to make certain choices and then they're not going to have to deal with those things and that's totally fine. But when someone has a fear of rejection or a fear of failure or a fear of change or a fear of conditional love, I mean, there's like so many that are real that um become these big roadblocks in in the person's life because they're even if it's on a subconscious level, they they they don't want this thing that happened to them before, whatever emotional wound it was.

[00:19:02]Most of the time, this emotional wound, um it creates a fear that it's going to happen again. And so if they were rejected, they develop a fear of rejection. You know, if they were um um take your pick, you know, if they were if they failed at something, then they're going to have a fear of failure.

[00:19:19]Um if they're fa if they let somebody down, they're going to they're going to be afraid of that. And so that becomes this big driving thing for them to make sure that never happens again. If it happened once, it could happen again. I have to keep it from happening again.

[00:19:31]And so they create these um uh this we call it emotional shielding that they put on unintentionally to keep that from happening again. So it's it's dysfunctional habits. It's um uh bad behaviors, negative traits, flaws, all these things. They they think they're going to protect themselves with those things because that's going to keep that thing from happening again. But it creates all these other problems that create even more problems that they eventually will have to address. So, and that's where, you know, that's where you, the character ends up at the start of the story. All of that stuff is in the backstory. And you've got the character at the start with this now this massive fear, whether they acknowledge it or not, that's impacting their life and keeping them unhappy. And then they spend the rest of the story figuring out, you know, what that is and, you know, addressing it. When it comes to us figuring that out for our characters, um, it really is it's and it really interesting because it's it's a puzzle piece. It's a it's stepping stones. you know, you've got the wound which leads to a fear that the character develops and a lie that they believe either about themselves or about the world. Um, you know, why did this happen? There has to be a reason why this happened because if there's no reason, then it's completely random and it could happen again and I can't deal with that. So, why did it happen? It's because I'm defective or it's because those people can't be trusted or because all people are like this. And so, you know, from that you get the the emotional shielding um which leads into the fatal flaws, the things that the person is going to have to deal with before the end of the story. So, you can really start anywhere to figure out what the fear is. You know, if you know what the wound is, you can be thinking, all right, I know this happened to my character, what fears would naturally come out of that and then you can move forward from there. Or if you know that you don't know anything about the character's backstory, you're writing a story about blank. you know, it's a story about finding true love. Um, well, if that's my character's motivation, what big fear might really stand in the way of them actually being able to find true love? And so, you can kind of work backward and, you know, figure out, okay, well, maybe it's maybe it's this.

[00:21:31]Oh, well, what what wounds then could have caused that to happen? So you can start at the beginning or you can start at the end and you can just move back and forth and kind of figure out all the pieces so that you end up with a character arc that makes sense because everything flows into the other. So there's there's so many ways that you can really figure out your character's fear. It's it's really pretty cool.

[00:21:53]>> And the and the thesauruses are um a great way to do that. Actually, >> I've done that. I've sat there and said, "Okay, I want my character to feel this way." and then looked up the thesaurus and said, "Okay, so these are the reasons why someone might feel this way, you know." So that's actually it ties in really well. I've help I've used it for exactly that reason to try and figure out. So So yay. Yay. This is the source.

[00:22:16]>> Um [laughter] so one thing I wanted to talk to you about is is based on actually what you've just been saying. I read a book recently that um had everything right like that. She had the right characters, she had the wounds, she had everything was all perfect and and it was all there and I did not connect to the characters or the emotion in it. And I I when I thought about it and tried to figure out why, what I came down to was that the characters were too they knew too much about themselves.

[00:22:44]Like they knew what their wound was, they knew why they had the wound and they told you right up front instead of it being a discovery process for us as the reader.

[00:22:52]>> So could you talk about that? like the ways to um maybe successfully put across that emotion without kind of over over selling it or telling too much I guess.

[00:23:02]I don't know.

[00:23:04]>> Yeah, I think that's a huge problem and it all goes back to that that question of authenticity because as people we're not self-aware. I mean we all are to varying degrees but we're not normally very aware of the bad things or the things that we don't want to think about. And so, you know, not many of us are gonna admit what that, yeah, I'm afraid of this thing and it's it's completely ruining my life. Um, but I'm not going to do anything about it, you know. So, when you have that in a story, you're right. It's it's it's not good for developing reader empathy because it's not really believable. They're can't really connect with that person because they're not really authentic.

[00:23:41]>> Yeah. So, it's all I think it's all about laying the the the breadcrumbs um and not giving away anything too soon.

[00:23:49]Um and whether that means, you know, some stories start out where that the reader knows right away what the wounding event is. It's very obvious what the wounding event is, even maybe to the reader. Um but they're not aware of how it's impacting them. And so that fear then becomes one of the things that they have to unravel. And if we as long as we don't give everything away right up front and we again kind of lay those clues down along the way. Um I think that story mapping is super helpful for that because then we can we can lay it out and see these are all the things that I want to get across about my character and the things that my my character needs to learn about themselves. And so you can actually map it out and see all right this one is going to come out here. This one is going to come out here. And that way it's not all kind of plopped into the beginning or all at the end.

[00:24:36]um where and that's a different problem where the reader starts to feel like they're being strung along like come on like tell give me something already. So you can you know you can map it out so that you are sharing uh the important things that readers need to know about the character gradually across the story and I think that that can really help with that.

[00:24:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's a great answer. Yeah.

[00:24:58]>> Yeah.

[00:24:58]>> Yeah. Cuz it was just funny like I was like man she's got everything here.

[00:25:02]Everything's right. read those books and it just got the whole it's all there but no no no emotion almost >> and it was >> you can't you know you want flaws don't you in your characters that's why you read them >> and you want to watch read their redemption arc um you know and that's where it comes in isn't it all the feelings and >> but when you think about it we're all we're all not sitting here going we're not so self-aware that we go I know that this thing is my problem and this is goes back to this one particular moment and I know all of that but I'm just going to let it happen you like we're not that self-aware. So, why would we be that self-aware in a book? Um, >> yeah.

[00:25:38]>> So, is there a like if we're talking specifically around fear? Cuz when I was asking these questions, I was thinking about fear as in scary moments in the book, like fear as in >> like that kind of stuff. And I was like, well, is there a right amount of fear to use? Is there ever a time when you shouldn't use fear? So, could we maybe block it off and talk about it in that way? cuz I kind of get the fear that we're talking about with the emotions, you kind of need that through the whole book, right? Like that's and and kind of in every book, someone's going to have a a fear or Yeah. But if we're talking about like scary fear Yeah. Sorry.

[00:26:10]>> Yeah. There's very varying um fear runs on a spectrum, you know. So you have fear and then you have terror, you know, you have the the really big, but you also have uncertainty. It's like a very very very low level fear. It's not quite fear yet, but it's it's where it starts.

[00:26:26]It's on the way. um confusion sometimes, you know, can be the beginning of fear.

[00:26:32]It's it's all of the little things along the way. So, having fear um in its various levels throughout the story is a good idea. Um we have actually a chapter in our book that that Angela came up with this metaphor. It's it's awesome about an elevator and how the fear there are different intensity levels of fear that you can choose for your story at the right time. Um, you know, we have really, uh, mild fears, just fleeting things, you know, the the kind of like the jump scares that come and you get an adrenaline spike and then it goes away and and those are those are good at certain points in your story, just, you know, for different reasons. Um, and then you have the ones that are a little more sticky. you know, they are something that you have like a little bit of a personal relationship with um that kind of is recurring and it's not very intense, but it's always in the back of your mind and you can feel it creeping up on you. Um and then you have fears that have been managed. It's something that you're aware of and you have dealt with it, but it's it's always there. It's still kind of um driving some of your decisions and pushing you towards or away certain things. And then you get into the the really deep uh the deeply um disturbing fears which are the uh the fears that come out of emotional wounds and um and you know those are the ones that that take a lifetime sometimes to figure out and overcome. And so those kinds of deep wounds that are uh at the character arc level, those are going to pop up. They should pop up frequently throughout the story because your character has to learn to recognize what it is and then deal with it. and they're not going to get it right every time because that's not how we are in real life. And so you have to give them multiple opportunities to deal with their fear. Um, and I like to tie them in at kind of the big turning points in the story. Uh, so that it's always coming back to, you know, whatever is happening. It's a different situation, but same fear that they're having to deal with. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. Um but having the different levels of fear at different points it's it's you know it's important to vary the emotions that the character is feeling altogether. So when you can you know you want you can't have fear fear fear all the time. You have to have um you know you have to have some up you have to have some down you have to have some light um with your different emotions. And it's the same thing you know with fear. You can use different levels of it at different points in the story uh to to get whatever it is that you're trying to achieve at that point in the story. of your character >> and having the character react to it in a different way each time or or progressively, you know, putting it back to something that had happened before in a way that you can they're not actually solving it right then and there but becoming aware that there is >> and and also responding differently because of their growth. You know, fear off also gives you an opportunity to show the evolution as the character is going along because when the same fear comes up as they become more aware of it, um they start to deal with it >> and then their their responses are going to be a little bit different as they go on. As in the beginning, it's complete denial and just avoidance, you know, but now they're recognizing and they're not comfortable with it and they they may still mess up, but as they go along their response is going to be different.

[00:29:46]So tying it in those those big fear, tying that in throughout the story is good. Um, but also, you know, throwing in things that are going to have some of those lower level fears and give you a variety of emotions throughout the story. I I can't remember where I read this, but I I somebody had this this idea for when you're planning your story of putting each scene on an index card and there should be on they tracked the emotion of the main character in that scene in every scene throughout the story and they marked it with the emotion they were feeling at the beginning and the emotion they were feeling at the end so that you can make sure that there is an emotional progression, a shift in every story.

[00:30:25]Because if you're going through the scene and there's no emotional change, the scene's going to be flat. Readers are going to pick up on that. Um, so making sure that each scene has an emotional shift, whether it's from up to down or down to up or down to up to down again, that keeps the story moving and the the momentum going and fear in its various forms is one of the ways to make that happen.

[00:30:48]>> Yeah. Yeah. I have also read that and I cannot also cannot remember where I read it, but I know what you're talking about. Maybe the story grid. I feel like maybe but I don't know. I'm not 100% certain.

[00:30:57]>> I don't remember. It's been a while.

[00:30:59]>> Um so that's what's really interesting is the idea of using that fear the and it's the psychological fear that we're talking about here the the emotional one um say of fear of rejection which maybe is something that happened in childhood using that to to create the character arc and the plot. So, so if we did that, like if you could kind of talk about how if you know that your character has this fear of rejection from being rejected when they were a child by their parents, say, how would that play out in and how would you use that to create the character's arc? Like obviously they have to maybe change from having being fear of rejection to putting themselves out there and maybe being rejected and being okay with that, but hopefully not being rejected. I don't know. And and then how do you and how do you use that to plot your book? like how do you use that kind of underlying fear to to create plot points? Um yeah.

[00:31:48]>> Yeah. So I looked at um I started looking at a bunch of movies because movies for me are easier to analyze. I don't know why it is. I think they're just more obvious what's what's happening. Um >> and so I found a really good example in in Rocky that I that we used in the book. And every Rocky is is afraid of um never having respect, never finding having respect for himself or getting the respect of others. He's, you know, been a bum his whole life. Nobody takes him seriously as a boxer. He's kind of failing at everything at the beginning of the story. And every turning point, something happens that challenges that fear that he gets an opportunity um that he can make a choice. And the choice has to do with him trying to get respect and it it leads to something good and sometimes it leads to, you know, something that isn't quite so good. But those turning points by creating choices, creating opportunities that create choices for the character, they're always going to the the fear plays into that. But a part of it that is it's a lot to explain. So I I I'll I'll try to be brief. There's um the the the uh the character arc. One of the big pieces that's missing for the character that is is motivating them is their missing human need. There's um you know, Maslo was a psychiatrist back in the day and he came up with this theory that there are five basic human needs that all people have and if those needs are not met, they become motivators for them. So, it's things like survival, you know, uh sleep, food, all of that. There's love and belonging is a is a human need that we have.

[00:33:32]Safety and security. Um esteem and recognition. And then self-actualization. You know, just being able to be who you are and and live your truth and do the things that you're passionate about. All of these things are are vital. And if one of them is missing, then they start driving you subconsciously towards filling that void. And so the when you're looking at the character's arc, one of the things that happens when they experience an emotional wound and a fear that comes out of it is it creates a void in one of those missing human needs. Um, normally because of what they are doing to try to keep that from happening again. So when that that human need is is really important to know as well. It's just one of the the puzzle pieces and they will be working the whole story towards um subconsciously filling that that void through the outer motivation, the story bowl. They choose a story goal that is going to give them what they think they they're missing inside. Um, so for Rocky, he decides he's going to he's going to um he's going to go up against the champ, you know, because he feels he has no respect and he so that's an opportunity for him, you know, if he could possibly win, then he is going to fill that void and he'll have respect for himself but also from other people.

[00:34:51]And so every option that happens at the turning points um it's an opportunity for him to meet that need. And so it's it drives their decisions. And so that's the the way that I would like to tie fear into a story is through those turning points. And they don't always have to be the exact same, you know, the greatest fear that comes up. Sometimes it's just an opportunity where they have a choice to move forward into what's better and what's healthy and change which is uncomfortable or fall back into what they have always done and the status quo even if that's not working for them because it's comfortable.

[00:35:26]>> Yeah. Um, but just having those turning points, choices that they get to make and if you can tie their fear into it, I think it's a bonus because it becomes very um consistent and it reads across the whole story. Even again, so much of like what we do when we're reading is not on a conscious verbal level.

[00:35:44]>> Um, but it creates this synchronicity across the story that can be really satisfying, I think, for readers >> because it has to be plausible, right?

[00:35:52]You can't just be throwing in fears left, right, and center. You know that Exactly. Yeah. Can I build it the character?

[00:35:59]>> Yes, for sure.

[00:36:00]>> And then and then something like that that fear the the emotional fear that they've had carrying through. Well, that has to be the dark moment where they kind of like fall back into old habits and something a challenge or something comes up and then they fall back before, you know, gathering themselves together again and moving forward.

[00:36:20]>> That bravery, isn't it? Stepping away and acknowledging and all of that that sort of pivotal moment, you know. Yeah.

[00:36:26]Yeah. And if you can get that right, that's the moment where we all love that where they kind of step up after after kind of falling back into their old ways and making it happen after all. That's the >> Yeah, that's the moment.

[00:36:38]>> And with Rocky, it's very cool because in that moment, he realizes he he his dark moment of the soul is when he realizes he cannot win. Like he cannot beat this guy. He's the heavyweight champion of the world. He he can't beat him. And now he's going to be he's going to be defeated like internationally.

[00:36:54]like everybody's going to see it. It's like the worst possible way to not get respect from people.

[00:37:00]>> So, he realizes, you know, what if what if I can just go all 15 rounds? If I could go nobody's ever done that with him before. Um if I can if I can last all 15 rounds, then that will prove that I'm able to do something that nobody has ever done before. Yeah.

[00:37:16]>> And in the end, that's what I love about Rocky is that it's it seems like he has failed because he did not win the fight.

[00:37:23]>> But he didn't win. I mean, he didn't lose. He won respect. Everybody now looks at him and says, you know, yeah, sure he didn't win, but look what he did. Like, he's a totally great boxer and now he has >> respect and he has a boxing career that he has, you know, never been able to to achieve at. And it it's just it's a great example.

[00:37:41]>> Yeah. And I love that he didn't win the fight because that was kind of had to learn that respect wasn't just about this one thing. It was actually about proving himself in another way which is actually a really good >> a good lesson good lesson for us all to learn. [laughter] >> So that's another thing. Are we learning learning a lesson or some kind of without it being bashed over the head? I like that. Um >> no lecturing.

[00:38:07]>> No lecturing. Um, so why is fear such a powerful tool? Like why is it so useful to us?

[00:38:15]>> Um, I think for one because it's universal. Uh, it's something that even if the character is afraid of something the reader is not, they understand how fear ties us up and and hamstrings us and >> ends up pushing us to places that we we didn't want to go in the first place.

[00:38:32]>> Yeah. Um, and anytime we can use something universal in the story, we uh we we gather way more readers to our story and our character than than we would with something that's very niche.

[00:38:44]So, Universal is really good. Um, but I also think it's important because it's something that has to be overcome and I think that's what so many really good stories are about. It's about it's about um surviving. It's about getting better.

[00:39:03]It's about um learning and growing. And fear is a very natural thing as part of the human experience to have to overcome. And you know, when we can see a character who's going through that process that we have gone through um with different fears or with different difficulties in our lives, >> um it's very compelling and and it makes them somebody that we want to root for.

[00:39:26]We want them to win because we want to win ourselves in that same way. So it's the whole universality of it. I think that's >> so relatable. It's for everybody. Yeah.

[00:39:36]>> Yeah.

[00:39:37]>> When you when you think about it, fear is kind of like this. It can be quite irrational. I.e. my fear of sharks, >> but it's a protective mechanism, right?

[00:39:45]Like it's it's there to protect us >> and and and our our subconscious, I guess, is where you would say it would come from, doesn't necessarily know the difference between a a real fear, i.e. possibility of sharks versus a a you know a non-fear like just a fear of being rejected or something I mean or a fear of the pain that might come to you from being rejected right like it's a fear of that kind of stuff so um yeah >> ultimately we protect ourselves don't we yeah from those fears that's that's a mechanism isn't it from from a young age you you know you don't you know you protect yourself from >> fear >> you know >> right and that's why it's so important, I think, to understand the psychology uh behind it because that's what drives us all and kind of what the the struggle that we're all in um in this world. So, if we can understand how it works for us and then we can apply it to our characters, >> it just makes them really feel really real.

[00:40:46]>> Yeah, it is true.

[00:40:47]>> It's kind of weird when you think of um adrenaline junkies, isn't doesn't it?

[00:40:51]you know, who who perhaps don't have that fear that the rest of the world does because it's something that they're constantly seeking. I just wonder how that plays out for them, you know?

[00:41:02]>> I'm sure they've got other fears, [clears throat] though, right?

[00:41:04]>> Oh, true.

[00:41:05]>> Different fear.

[00:41:05]>> Yeah.

[00:41:06]>> Yeah.

[00:41:06]>> Maybe they're doing the adrenaline junkie stuff to get over some other fear of, you know, that they don't want to think about. So, they go and push themselves physically to avoid the internal >> success, failure. It just goes on the story.

[00:41:18]>> Yeah. [laughter] This is why it's fascinating, isn't it?

[00:41:21]So, um, >> fear feels like it would it drives the conflict, right? Like, is that right?

[00:41:26]Like, would you say that that internal fear drives the conflict in a novel or not necessarily?

[00:41:33]>> Um, I would say that it drives the plot.

[00:41:35]Um, because if you're fashioning your story around your character's arc and the steps forward and the steps back that they make along the way, then the fear is absolutely going to impact the plot. Um, and that's why I think it's super important if you're writing a change arc to figure out what that fear is um so that you know how to tie it in at those key moments.

[00:41:57]>> So, yeah, definitely um doesn't influence the plot.

[00:42:00]>> Yeah, I I remember years ago hearing and I can't even remember who it was talking and they were like maybe talking about a book they'd written and she was like, "Well, I've got this character the um the guy his mother was an alcoholic. So, of course, the woman that he falls for has to be a recovering alcoholic. And I was just like, "Wow, that's just but you know, like he's got this fear of this of being I mean, I don't even know what his fear would be, but like you know, not getting himself into that situation again." And he falls in love with >> control. Yeah.

[00:42:29]>> Yeah. Like that kind of stuff is um you know, really hammering that home, that kind of the one thing that he doesn't want to have happen that's going to really trigger him in every level is um is the one thing he gets almost. Yeah.

[00:42:44]>> Um, >> crazy, eh?

[00:42:45]>> Yeah. Anyway, >> once you start thinking about it, it's like, oh, [laughter] >> you go down that rabbit hole of thinking about the fears of your characters. And >> I always find when one of my books isn't working, which is just sub consequently is happening at the moment. It's usually because I haven't nailed the fears and I'm just writing the book without diving too deep, you know.

[00:43:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know it's >> and that's I think really common because we always I think most of us go into a story with some piece of it being intact like it just it's formed you know whether it's who the character is or what happened to them or what their problem is or what they want to achieve.

[00:43:23]You know we have these chunks of it and we feel like because we've got that figured out >> now we're good let's go let's get to writing but there's really a lot of I encourage people to do you know quite a bit of of planning. I know that everybody has different processes and we have people who aren't comfortable with that and that's totally fine because if you don't do it in the beginning, you end up doing it in revision. So, it will, you know, even out very often most of the time.

[00:43:47]>> Um, but as somebody who is a planner, you know, I I like to to figure all of that out on the front end so that I don't get any nasty surprises along the way.

[00:43:56]>> I wish I could do that. I just have never been able to. Same as you. tried when I tried so many times and I'm [laughter] like I'm 40,000 words into this book and I'm just like oh it's so bad you know like [laughter] blah blah blah blah blah just writing for the sake of writing you know I know it'll work out but at the moment >> yes >> and the messy in the middle >> she ends up chucking like a good 20 30,000 words out every book >> and it's just breaks my heart >> horrible way to write horrible way to write >> no it's not though everybody's got their process and you know there's not there's no one right way to do it.

[00:44:32]>> No.

[00:44:33]>> Yeah. So you talked about um villains versus protagonists um and fears and them maybe being different for each of those archetypes. Could you talk about that? Like how do we deal with fears in a in a villain versus >> Yeah. So I think that um protagonists they have they both come into the story with their own issues. Um, and I think that protagonists very often at the beginning of the story, they they aren't aware of what they're afraid of and they figure it out along the way and then they learn to deal with it.

[00:45:06]>> Um, villains, I think either they are in denial about their fear and they never learn how to deal with it because they don't want to know or they don't want to face it or they know what their fear is and they don't care. They see it as a strength. They see it as something that's protecting them and so they never aim to do anything about it throughout the story. It drives protagonists and villains in the same way. Um but their arc is very different in relation to their fear. Um a fear arc for a villain is going to be pretty flat because you know he may have some some revelations along the way but he's not going to actually do anything about them. Um, I think that, uh, protagonists see fear as something that once they've really become aware of it, they they see that it's a problem. They see that that they want to they want to fix it and do something about it. Whereas villains very often um will embrace their fear and then also uh they'll they'll weaponize other people's fears. So they'll figure out what you're afraid of, what the protagonist is afraid of, and then they'll use it against them and they'll manipulate them and they'll create situations that make them weak because of their fear. So it's, you know, they don't have like the regular empathy that most people have where they're not going to do that to other people because they know how that feels.

[00:46:24]It's like there's none of that with them. Um they they go to that really dark place with fear. um and they they double down and then they end up doing a lot of things um to feed that fear and feed that protection that they're they're trying so hard to achieve that protagonist would never do. Um you know, they cross the moral lines and they get really flexible with their their moral codes. Um all because the fear is is is so important for them to with to uphold and to to double down on that.

[00:46:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so the truth actually becomes very murky, doesn't it? For both for both the protagonist and the uh the villain because um you know it's it it's what who it's how they see themselves.

[00:47:10]So it's their truth, isn't it?

[00:47:12]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:12]>> And it goes back to that self-actualization need. Um that's so important is that when we're in denial, when we're we're denying something about ourselves or rewriting something about ourselves so we can be comfortable with it.

[00:47:24]>> Um there we can say that that makes us happy and and satisfied, but but at some level we're not because in our psyche we know that we're living a lie.

[00:47:36]>> And so it is again a driving force. So even a villain who you know is is going digging in really deep into that fear and like like using it against people and and justifying it and doing things that they shouldn't be doing. Um and seem to be okay with it. But I think at some level, you know, it's it's driving them internally because that self-actualization is shot and it's not there.

[00:48:02]>> And they may not want to think that they need that, but we all do. So um it just it's a keeps creating problems.

[00:48:12]>> So if you had like a redemption arc, so you write one book and then the next book is the the redemption arc of the villain, it would be that person figuring out those those things that they had used against others and and realizing in the same way as a hero would would realize.

[00:48:27]>> Yeah.

[00:48:28]>> Yeah. That would be cool.

[00:48:30]>> Yeah. As I normally don't like redemption arcs, but when we talk about it in that way, I'm kind of fascinated by the concept of it. Um, so what is there ever a a do all genres use the the wound and the fear and all those kinds of things? And what I'm thinking of is for example thrillers or um books where you where they have characters that don't that's the same main character again and again and it's like a secret agent or something like that and they don't seem to have a it's always really actionfilled and they don't necessarily have an arc and they don't necessarily learn anything and then the next book or the next and in movies someone like James Bond >> Jack Jack Reacher.

[00:49:13]>> Jack Reacher. Yeah.

[00:49:14]>> Jack Reacher.

[00:49:15]>> Yeah. who who kind of you think they've learned something, then they go back to the next book and they're the next one and they're the same again. Um Yeah. How does that work? Like is that just they don't use them or is it Yeah. something different that I >> Yeah. It's you're talking about a flat arc basically where the character doesn't change. It's like Indiana Jones in the first Raiders of the Lost Arc.

[00:49:33]You know, he's the same at the end as he was at the beginning. And and those stories really aren't about character arc. Uh they're about um achieving a goal. um learning new skills, um all of those things a long way. They're more story focused than they are character focused. And so in those stories, there's not typically, you know, a debilitating fear because it's not something that they're going to be overcoming. I mean, you had, you know, Jones and snakes. I mean, he was afraid of snakes, but that wasn't like, >> you know, something that was that was um terribly debilitating for him. Um it wasn't like a deep fear. And so I think that fear obviously it does play into the stories but it's more situational I think in those stories than it is story level or you know character level.

[00:50:21]>> It's external stuff rather than internal stuff. He's >> dealing with a bunch of Yeah. actions and he does there is a a story goal that he's achieving but it's not necessarily an internal one.

[00:50:32]>> Yeah.

[00:50:32]>> Yeah.

[00:50:34]because we know that he u with Jack Reacher, he he um he doesn't want to get serious with somebody cuz he doesn't want to stay in one place >> because of his past, because of his family situation or whatever. And I think um you couldn't have it any other way and still have his books >> because you know he's got to travel. So >> yeah, [laughter] >> that's just the nature of him.

[00:50:58]>> And it's wildly successful. I mean, you know, the chain arc is not the only way to go. Uh, I I would argue that mostly >> they're the ones that appeal to the most people the most.

[00:51:09]>> Yes.

[00:51:10]>> Um, but it's definitely an option that works.

[00:51:13]>> But you couldn't have a romance book that didn't have a change arc like that.

[00:51:16]Like you couldn't do romance and >> it wouldn't be romance, would it? No.

[00:51:20]>> Where they didn't change. You wouldn't have a flat arc.

[00:51:23]>> No. I think I would that would be more like the old romance that we used to have, you know, back in the 60s and the 70s before um >> the there really was not a a lot of arc.

[00:51:34]Um >> I don't think that that works for romance. That's why we have the >> huge romance genre that we have now that's bigger than anything else >> um because of the kind of the evolution of of the romance novel >> over time.

[00:51:50]>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, so is there um okay, one one common piece of advice that you actually disagree with in in just in general with emotions rather than specifically?

[00:52:04]>> Oh.

[00:52:07]>> Oh gosh. With emotions?

[00:52:11]I don't think so. I I I feel like we've talked so much about emotions in the our career, me and Angela, and all the books that we've written.

[00:52:21]>> Yeah. um that I can't really think of of advice out there about emotions that I would disagree with.

[00:52:29]Um I'm sorry, I can't >> No, just [laughter] >> you must have >> It's important.

[00:52:38]>> You must have emotion. [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:52:41]>> Yeah.

[00:52:42]>> Is there anything else about fear that we need to keep in mind? like how do you know the best way to layer it in or or how to how to create a good fear for our characters?

[00:52:53]>> Um I don't think so. It's just again doing that the background work um to figure out what the greatest fear is.

[00:52:59]But then I think it's really important too to understand who your character is emotionally so that you know >> how they respond to fear and all of the other emotions. Um when we can, you know, really figure out who they are emotionally. Are they introverted, are they extroverted? Are they reserved or demonstrative? Um are there certain things about them that make them um act differently or a certain way when they are afraid? You know, do you have somebody who was taught that fear was weak, that fear makes them weak? Um or around certain people, they're afraid to show their fear because of the past that they have with them or things that they've been taught or you know, whatever. There's so much nuance in figuring out your character, understanding how they relate to fear, how they respond to it, that if you can figure that out in the beginning, [clears throat] then you can write them really consistently and they're going to be authentic to readers. And then when you do need to have a big something that happens, a big response, you know, how far you have to push and and and what kind of circumstances you have to create to get them to that point of having that that big response or what kind of situations will get them um triggered faster. You know, it's just again it's the the background work of just getting to know your character and how they are um when it comes to their emotions that can help you write them really consistently. You really need to dial in that fear before they start. E, you really need to know what it what what makes them tick. Yeah.

[00:54:26]>> Yeah.

[00:54:26]>> I think that works really well.

[00:54:28]>> And you said consistency a couple of times there. And I think that's another important word, like >> keep, you know, and and kind of that consistency through the whole story and kind of continuing to amp it up and amp up the the situations and not have them >> come across exactly the same situation but in different clothing or something, you know, like it's dialing things up in a in a consistent way so that they do end up where you want them to end up.

[00:54:54]Um, and knowing how to make those triggers, which is Yeah. Is there a um is there something in one of the thesauruses or even the fear thesaurus to say, "Okay, my fear is I'm rocky and I'm terrified. I I need respect and I don't feel I've got it. How do what are the situations that can that I can put my character in to make me come up against that fear? like how do I know that the situation that I've created is going to be the right one or was going to push them uh sufficiently?

[00:55:28]>> Yeah, we've got um every uh the way the book's laid out is in the front like 50 pages is is just instruction about fear about the greatest fear and how to write fear and and all of the things that we've talked about basically here. Um and then the entry portion of the book is just like the emotion the sorus. So, there's a two-page spread that has a common fear that is a really big deal for people. Um, such as not fitting in, the fear of not fitting in. And so, if that's my character's fear, the book has all of these ideas that you can use as really as brainstorming to to to kickstart the process um of what it looks like. Um, what internal struggles a character with that fear might have, how it's going to hinder and disrupt their life, emotional wounds that it could stem from. Uh, and then scenarios that could trigger that fear. So, you're talking about, you know, how do I what what situations can I create that is going to help get them where I want them to go? We've got, you know, ideas for that information and there are human needs that could be impacted if that's your character's greatest fear and then ways that they can minimize it or overcome it in the end. So, we try to just, you know, come up with information that people can use knowing that it's not a perfect fit for any story. you know, you have to look at your character, you have to look at the story that you've created and and kind of the message that you're wanting to tell and then but these are ideas that you can take and tailor um and personalize to your character and and what they're going through. So, it's a it's a really good brainstorming opportunity just to get kind of the juices flowing and to help you to understand the process, the whole process >> of the character and where they were and where they are and then where they need to get to and how what you can do to to get them there.

[00:57:16]>> Yeah.

[00:57:16]>> Sounds like a must purchase for every author to me.

[00:57:20]>> I really hope so. [laughter] >> I'll buy it. It's okay. You've got one.

[00:57:27]will always get it. So will >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I like that that the idea of personalization and that's what we're all doing with all of our books because I mean I guess you could there's all the books out there, you know, there's I've got ones that are like the seven basic story lines or you know there's there's there are only a certain number of stories we can tell but it's the way we personally tell them and how we develop these things like the fear and the wound and all those kinds of things. So >> um it's awesome awesome that you amazing practical tool [clears throat] to help us do a little >> Yeah. Thank you so much.

[00:58:00]>> Yeah. Thank you.

[00:58:01]>> Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

[00:58:03]>> That's okay. So, I've just got one one little golden piece of advice for us for you to leave our readers with. Something that you I don't know wish you'd been told earlier or or something that you think is really important for people to remember in their writing careers.

[00:58:18]>> Um I think it's important to be patient and don't rush. Um, yeah, you know, we're always so many of us, we're interested in the end result, you know, and checking the box, finishing the book, publishing the book, the end, whatever it is for us. Um, that we're, you know, we're so eager to get to that point that that very often we push too fast to get there.

[00:58:41]>> And writing is it's a long journey. It's uh, you know, what's that saying? It takes 10,000 hours um, of doing anything to become an expert at it. And there's really no rushing that. So, um, slowing down, uh, enjoying the journey, recognizing it as a journey and and seeing growth and appreciating the growth that you're making in little steps along the way is is really really important. Um, because, you know, that's that's really what it's all about.

[00:59:10]>> So, >> excellent piece of advice. Love that advice.

[00:59:13]>> So, so if someone wants to uh find out more about you or all of your resources, where where would they go? Yes, our blog is writersshelpingwriters.net and we have a bookstore page there that's got information on each of the books and kind of an overview and uh where they're being sold as well as we have a a tools for writers page that there that's got free resources. A lot of them are some of the appendix graphics or worksheets that are in the back of our books that we um we put up for free after the book goes out. So there's a lot of there's a lot of information. We've been blogging since 2008. Um, so really [laughter] >> search for a lot of things, find information there.

[00:59:53]>> Uh, yeah. So hopefully you can, you know, can find what they need there.

[00:59:57]>> That's awesome. Fantastic. I'm going to go there right after this. Um, and where can we be found?

[01:00:04]>> Yeah.

[01:00:04]>> At sparospodcast.com.

[01:00:07]Um, you can find us on Patreon, Spargo Podcast. We have a wonderful uh group um that we go in and interact with and answer questions and things like that.

[01:00:16]So anywhere that says Spar Girls podcast, we're away. We're your people.

[01:00:21]>> Awesome. Awesome. Wendy, thank you. And thank you, Becca. I've really enjoyed this chat on talking all day, but unfortunately we must end or people will get angry.

[01:00:31]>> We must work. [laughter] >> Thank you. And thank you to all of our listeners for coming along for another episode of the Spar Girls podcast. We've loved having you here with us. We'll be back again next week with another episode of the show. But for now, farewell.

[01:00:47]>> Well, bye. Bye.

[01:00:49]>> Bye.