What Men Can Do to Help Women Feel Safe? | The Hidden Cost of Being a Woman

[00:00:00]The most unsafe place by far is your own home. One in three women will experience physical or sexual violence in her lifetime. And one woman is killed every 10 minutes by an intimate partner or other family members. Domestic violence increases 26% if England play and then 38% if they lose. How many times I've been walking home on the phone to someone. How many men are sending to their friend? This is a photo just in case, you know, just in case I don't make it home. How many men on a date are not leaving their drink on the table just in case? We have to start looking at it from a different lens. Women are emotional. Is it women punching their partners when their team loses? We're not saying it's all men. We're saying it's almost always a man. And we never know which man until it's too late.

[00:00:40]Today, I'm sitting down with the founder of Hassel, a movement [music] that's getting men to actually show up for the conversation. We spend so much money inventing all of these ways for women to keep themselves safe. But if men are getting more and more violent, it doesn't stop it. If you go to court, they can.

[00:00:57]This episode is for us to get very, very, very angry. But before we get into the conversation, I have an extremely important request. More important than any other request I've ever made because I do not mean to alarm you. We have been nominated for podcast of the year. To win, I'm going to need every single one of your votes. This will take you 1 minute max. really really really would love it if you clicked her discussions on the link in the description as if you haven't already done enough for me by listening to these episodes. But I would just so so so so so appreciate that one minute of your time to vote so that we can possibly win this award. Thank you so so so much. And we'll now get into the episode. Amy, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. We will get into what hassle actually is and um what is doing about violence against women and girls shortly, but first I want to set the scene.

[00:01:50]>> So I've got a couple of stats.

[00:01:52]Worldwide, a quarter of women aed 15 to 49 years have been in a relationship subjected to physical and or sexual violence from any current or former husband or male intimate partner at least once in their lives. That is horrific. Why is this a growing problem?

[00:02:11]I think there's such a combination of things, right? Like we know the rise in social media, not only kind of that side of technology, but actually improvements in technology are also allowing perpetrators to find even more ways to cause harm that was before maybe more in person. And now there's just all these other outlets in which, you know, people can control abuse and also there's some, you know, very scary harmful narratives being pushed, especially to younger generations. There's a combination of things like different, you know, cost of living crisis and things like this. All of these socioeconomic problems allow violence against women to rise. There is epidemic levels in the UK as there is in many countries across the world. In the UK, for example, there's definitely more of a a lack of trust in the justice system. You know, we've seen documentaries like the expose on the Met um of all the misogyny and we see a lot more of like news stories reported and how they are judged and the consequences. And I think all of that is, you know, not only indicating to perpetrators that they can essentially get away with harm, but also sort of for anyone who's potentially a victim, they don't feel confident in the system, right? And so all of these factors combined as well as other things are just causing the problem to kind of keep escalating and not enough is being done at a systemic level to counter that, you know, very rapid progression really. Yeah. We're going to have to talk about some of the really topical issues at the moment. So the manosphere documentary and the World Cup as well.

[00:03:44]>> Yes.

[00:03:44]>> But first I want to know what was your drive for this? Where did that come from? Yeah, I I mean I always say that like social issues have just been a thing for me my entire life. I've always been quite interested in politics and things like that and my parents always taught me about you know that stuff and also my privilege. I think I was I always say quite a weird child and now I put it down maybe a bit more to ADHD.

[00:04:09]But I think I always had that really strong like just justice sensitivity thing and was always very aware of my privilege and kind of felt guilty of like why this was just a lottery. I could have been born to any family anywhere in the world and I'm not, you know, I got very lucky with the parents that I have and even just like I'm white, I'm straight, like everything pretty much apart from being a woman is working in my favor. And so I think I was just always aware of that from being really young. And then I guess as I say, I guess I put it down to ADHD now, but when I was I guess going through school working out what I wanted to do to me, I always kept coming back to entrepreneurship because I just got bored so quickly of things and I always wanted to be doing a bit of everything.

[00:04:52]always had a project. Like again that weird [laughter] that weird kid like in I remember being in year two and being like um can I put on a school play like by myself and like I made all the props.

[00:05:04]I wrote the scripts. I bought the inflatable blowup crocodile cuz we did Peter Pan. I starred in it. You know [laughter] that kind of thing. And I was what like seven years old. I was just a strange child. And then when I went to university, I basically went and studied entrepreneurship and found out about the concept of social enterprise, which is essentially hybrid between a for-profit company and a charity. So it's kind of using business models, entrepreneurial mindset, all that kind of stuff, but to create social impact in the world rather than just make money. So for me, I was like, this is what I want to do. And so that was kind of like the whole background. And then I've run social impact brands before. And then I was starting one during co when I was graduating and co ruined all my plans and so I end up moving to London and that's where I mean I'd had experiences from being a teenager right like every woman has but I think it was very heightened in London I think just I spent a lot of time traveling twice on my own you know even just like networking events or going to meet friends or whatever it was and I think also just obviously there is that social aspect to London where you maybe have a lot more conversations with people and just having those conversations with women all the time being like, "Oh, I just got followed here. Oh, this just happened." Me telling a story. Oh, yeah.

[00:06:19]That happened to me last week. Like the way that we'd normalized it so much. And I think as those conversations were happening, I was like, "Am I in like, you know, like out of body experience where you're like listening to all these women talking about this stuff that's so crazy and so bad, but we've just normalized it. Completely normalized it."

[00:06:38]>> Yeah. like well I've done it like just been laughing oh you know and it's kind of laughing out of oh I could have actually been really badly hurt there but I I think it's the only coping strategy you know when you hear about the awful story of se Sarah Everard where you think god for someone who was claiming to be a policeman came up to me >> exactly >> I would get in the car like there's there's just >> it really really brings it >> Yeah you're like I've been in that situation how many times I've been walking home on the phone to someone and like you said a police a police officer could have stopped me and I could have been like >> I would got in. I absolutely would have gotten cuz that's what you're taught.

[00:07:16]That's the thing you're told to trust which you know ultimately we should do.

[00:07:22]>> We should be able to be able to >> but that's you know so often people in authority figures are still >> we perpetrating this stuff.

[00:07:31]>> Yeah. And I and I just think that that is our only coping strategy because um I was explaining before we started recording um Dr. Mimi runs who's um she does sport science and she came on the podcast and we were talking about running women's safety running training marathons because >> if you're working at 95 and it's winter you can't physically get in your training runs without doing some of them in the dark >> and she explained a story about how someone came up to her with a rope >> and she was laughing about it and I was like >> that's [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. But actually, it's difficult to recognize that because if you recognize how how awful that is an experience to go through, you start to process, okay, what if I hadn't run away? What would have happened next? And your brain, you don't want to go there, you know?

[00:08:21]Exactly. I think it's like, you know, I say this all the time about like feminism and stuff. It's like the more you know, the more >> the more anger you get, the deeper you get into it, the more you spot injustice in like and and it's the same with a lot of social issues. And I think like you said when it's something that's so personal to you as well, it is a coping mechanism cuz we just never do anything if we actually >> let it take over. Like women wouldn't do anything.

[00:08:44]>> That's something I've been finding over the last year is finding the balance between awareness of issues which I think it's so important. We all have social awareness of injustices that are happening around us. But balancing that with not letting it limit my own life because I think for a long time because I recognized the injustices against women >> it put a cap on my potential because in the back of my mind >> that's all consumed by it.

[00:09:10]>> Exactly. Like I knew women were judged for X Y and Z. Women found it harder to do this. Women there were all these extra barriers for women >> and they became limiting beliefs. And actually recently I've been trying to work against that by recognizing right f if you need to if to break down those barriers you almost need to ignore that they exist applying that to violence um against women and girls.

[00:09:34]>> Yeah >> the awareness of it could almost stop you living your life.

[00:09:38]>> How do you personally navigate that? I think Hassle's given me something to channel that into cuz I've definitely been through phases like as I say I've always been really interested in like social issues and like you know I'd get really deep into like the wars that were going on in the world and all this kind of stuff but then it can just consume you so you can't do anything else and I think for the first time this is where I'm like okay but I'm actively doing something about it so it feels less heavy in some ways because I'm like okay it I'm channeling all of that frustration and X Y and Z into doing something to you know that I believe anyway to to tackle the problem and I think that's all you can do. I think like I totally get what you mean in terms of you've got to create that balance because and I think this is where sometimes not saying that that's what you're doing but like internalized misogyny comes from because you get to that a bit more extreme point where it's like okay I don't even want to identify with women because I don't want to have to face those same barriers. I don't want to be put in the same group together with them or whatever, you know, like the pick me girl, like all this kind of I'm not like other girls.

[00:10:49]That whole thing like I still >> it enables the problem, but I don't think women are to blame for doing it.

[00:10:54]>> Yeah.

[00:10:54]>> Do you know what I mean? It's like through conditioning and through survival essentially that women, you know, there's that narrative of like the old woman at work who's really >> who's the most person you've ever met.

[00:11:05]Exactly. And it's not to say that that's okay, but I think so much of it comes from I either say I'm with women and then I have to deal with all of that.

[00:11:13]>> You know, I'm aware of all the stuff I'm going to or I position myself as not like other women and potentially gives me a leg up because I go, "Oh, I'm one of the lads or whatever, whatever."

[00:11:22]>> Yeah.

[00:11:22]>> I don't think it's a on an indiv I think it's a forced thing through a societal problem that people make different decisions within that sphere, right? But I think it's so interesting because again like and probably go into this in a bit, but like hustle is all about meeting people where they are and giving people grace and not just being like, "Okay, well you're a bad person, so see you." It's about why do people think the way they do? How much of that is conditioning? How much of that is circumstance? How much is the way that they've been brought up and all this kind of stuff and trying to assume that most people are inherently good and understand how to take them on a better path. That's kind of like the mentality behind it. But anyway, that was a whole tangent. But >> I'm going to save the manosphere conversation for when we talk about hassle because I think that will feed in really nicely%.

[00:12:09]>> But let's talk about the World Cup.

[00:12:11]Domestic violence increases 26% if England play and then 38% if they lose.

[00:12:18]>> How does that >> make you feel during this time when the World Cup is on? I think on a personal level I can't think about it too much because I always say this and it sounds quite I don't know want to say like psychopath vibes but you have to detach yourself because we hear the most harrowing things every single day not just on the news but also people sending us stories our own ambassadors telling us things like if you internalize all of that it's so heavy and that's without any of my personal experiences that's without all the hate and abuse and stuff we get like that's just one part. So I think you do have to kind of detach yourself from it in in terms of a personal thing. I think football is such a good example of where I mean one of the things you always you know they always say women are emotional women are too emotional and like is it women punching their partners when their team loses? No. You know that that's the reality. Like we don't recognize anger as an emotion for some reason because it's largely associated with men and patriarchy and XY Z. Those stats are so crazy, right? But we don't we >> we never call men hormonal or emotional.

[00:13:29]>> Exactly. And it it is that thing as well of like football is such a you know especially in the UK it's such a big thing especially you know increasingly for women but for men and the these people are their heroes and and the thing is it's not just people going to these games it's players that are playing this time that have allegations against them that are awaiting trial like whatever it is.

[00:13:55]What kind of message does that send?

[00:13:57]Like not just to men who are looking up to these people, but to women of like how much your life matters, you know?

[00:14:04]It's >> and how much your voice is >> valid. Yeah. It's just there's no value there because like, oh, we'd rather have them play a game >> ultimately. You know, I don't want to take away from I I understand that football is a huge thing and like I think it has so much potential for good.

[00:14:21]like it unifies people in a lot of ways and you know it brings people together and especially when England's doing well it's like this whole everyone's like camaraderie and everything but it is it's like the increase in like alcohol and all this all of it together plus going to matches and they're often rowdy and they get people get riled up and you know and it isn't just it isn't just when they go home it's also when they're at matches you know men are also suffering not necessarily to the same in the same way But how many fights, how many, you know, all these kind of assaults that are happening and yeah, it's I mean it's one of the industries we are in talks with, should I say, in terms of tackling this stuff because we're very much like looking at an industry looking at all this stuff from an industry systemic perspective. We're not just like in the nice fuss ways sticking up some social media post like we're really trying to go especially in the predominantly male sectors where this problem is just they have they have so much power to do so much good in the world they have so much influence and if we can use it in the right way >> there's a lot of potential for it to shape a very different future for like women's safety especially >> yeah you mentioned that you get a lot of hate and when I find it really interesting in a really sad way.

[00:15:42]Especially when the conversation comes up around the World Cup about the increase in domestic violence.

[00:15:46]>> Yes, >> there are some people who really take that being brought up as a personal attack.

[00:15:51]>> And how can drawing attention to women and girls being subjected to violence ever be controversial? And it's always so surprising to me that it really is a really controversial topic. Yeah. But first, we're going to play a little game called Bye or Bye-Bye. Um, I'm gonna show you something and I would love to know whether you would buy this thing or you would say bye-bye to it. There's only one rule. We love nuance. If you want to give balance, you're welcome to.

[00:16:17]If you also want to say get in the bin right now, you're welcome to.

[00:16:20]>> Mhm.

[00:16:21]>> Personal safety alarms. Can I give the nuance now?

[00:16:24]>> Yeah. Okay. Give nuance. It's not [laughter] like phone a friend. You can use the nuance on everyone.

[00:16:29]>> Okay. I would say I would say with all personal safety stuff, and I feel like this can apply to a lot of these. If on an individual level it makes you feel safer, do what you need to do. This problem isn't solved overnight, you know, I think that way more time and energy needs to be put into prevention.

[00:16:45]But if there are things that you need to do in the short term, the only problem is with a lot of personal safety things, they either don't work, make you more unsafe, if you go to court, they can be used against you. So many different things like that.

[00:16:57]>> What do you mean if you go to court, they can be used against you?

[00:16:59]>> So you can get those personal like keychains. They've got like different tools on them, right? like instead of carrying your keys between your fingers.

[00:17:07]But again, it can be like you were carrying a weapon. So then like in a lot of cases, if you're carrying a weapon, you have some form of violent intentions, it can be used. So there's this whole thing. And I mean even like personal safety alarms, like yes, they can work, but what if they just in they could make the person more angry and no one around could even hear them? And there's a this is why I'm like I'm not against them, but they're so complicated in terms of they're not just like, oh, they're going to make you safer. And I'd imagine we don't have research and data into how these personal safety features play out in in real life. Like I can't imagine there's research into how an attacker actually reacts if a personal safety alarm is pressed and they're trying to attack you. I think it's I think it's something that's very very hard to collect data on and like quantify, right? I mean, I know there was one I want to say it was in France, but I might be wrong where it's like an app where if you're in danger, you can press something and any woman within a certain radius gets an alert. So, they come and there was a case where they came and the woman was dead. I want to say, but I'm pretty sure that was the story. But they otherwise they wouldn't have found her body because they the women went and found her. But also all of these apps and like that great idea in theory apart from the fact they put way more responsibility on women but also men can pretend to be women to use like what's the vetting process like I know there was quite strict >> ID checks and all this kind of stuff but I know I was talking to one of our ambassadors and she's in Canada and she was saying like they have this buddy system where like you can request a buddy to help you home but also is that also prone to violent perpetrators abusing it, you know, saying we went to the Met and they did like a whole day basically on technology that's being manipulated for and they were saying things down to like what's it called?

[00:19:06]Like the weather, what are they called?

[00:19:08]The little things.

[00:19:10]>> Yeah. Like that you that people were tapping into them to monitor people like seeing when they were in the house like all like AirPods. They were dropping AirPods to track where they were going like when their kids were like like all of this stuff. It's just technology is amazing, but also it never solves a problem. This is the thing. They all just plaster even if they help temporarily or for in the moment. And I'm not saying I think it's just very individual, right? In terms of like >> how you feel in that moment, but personally, it doesn't make me feel safer. Like there's definitely things I do like I ring my mom if I'm on my own and things like that. and I would choose like a taxi on an app rather than just like calling in the street or whatever.

[00:19:53]So, I definitely think there are things, but it's just again it's like we spend so much money inventing all of these ways for women to keep themselves safe, but if men are getting more and more violent or even if men are just remaining as violent [laughter] as they are, it doesn't stop it, you know, it just plasters. Like, it's good. It's well-intentioned. Like, I think this about all of these things. I don't think you know people out there making safety devices are I mean maybe some but like a lot of people are well-intentioned. It comes from personal experience whatever but it's just every time I'm like >> yeah yeah >> cuz it's just that mental load like how much money you spending on this stuff.

[00:20:30]How much time you spent thinking about it? How many calculations do I press the button? Do I not press it? Am I you know and sometime often you don't know until it's too late. like we have a radar and I feel like women are pretty good at knowing when someone's about to be inappropriate or whatever, but then you don't know what point it's going to get to and like and then there's stuff like British Transport Police have a number that you can call, but how quickly they actually come and >> you know it's just again it's it's they're all well and good but they're just plastering. They're not really there still increases epidemic levels like it's not solving the problem is it?

[00:21:03]So that's my >> very long-winded nuance to to that. I feel like it applies to pretty much all of the but yeah [laughter] self-defense classes.

[00:21:16]>> Yeah. And similar thing I think if it helps you with like your confidence and things like that and I think you know there is people who take the self-defense classes not just women just to you know especially if they've had an experience before or they just want to feel safer or they work in a certain field or whatever it is. I don't think that is inherently bad. I just think again it's like oh well the self-defense classes so just go and do that and it's like we shouldn't have to do that >> and it's that it always disproportionately falls on women.

[00:21:43]That's my problem because then it limits it it's again we're not even equal anyway but then it's adding more financial inequality having to spend money on all this stuff. It's adding more emotional mental load onto us because we're having to think about it.

[00:21:57]We're having to calculate. having to and again with all of this stuff my biggest issue with like safety tips and everything is that especially younger women will just go if something happens I didn't do enough because all of the messages do this and you'll stay safe and we get it over and over again where people are just like I think it was my fault though like it's not it literally is never it's the person who chose to harm you if you were walking around entirely naked like it it doesn't matter anyone right Yeah. And and this is the thing I think the conditioning is so strong on do this to stay safe. And we saying this the other day like we asked our ambassadors just write write things that you do to stay safe. And I think within like 20 minutes we had about 200 things just like these niche little things you know down to oh if I order a takeaway I might shout upstairs when they answer the door just to show that there's someone else in the house or you know like these really small things. And I read and I was like yeah I actually do loads of these things. I didn't even think that that's what it what it was for.

[00:22:59]>> Yeah.

[00:22:59]>> Cuz you just you're just trained into it. But then the problem is with all of them if something happens it's like oh well I didn't do enough.

[00:23:07]>> God that breaks my heart as if the emotional um burden of going like young girls as well because feel like as you get older you tend to >> be able to break that a little bit more.

[00:23:17]But yeah, when you're a young teenager and >> I would always have looked at self-defense classes and gone, if someone wants to attack me, I don't think a self-defense class is going to even help. I worked as a doctor on a psychiatric unit for four for four months.

[00:23:31]>> We did like breakaway training, which was actually so so so useful and I really really really valued that. But then I had an experience where someone threw a glass bottle at my head and that didn't happen. [laughter] Exactly.

[00:23:43]>> You know, there's only so much you can do. of this stuff as well like you know we do focus more on public harassment and stuff and I can go into why that's the case but the reality is the most unsafe place by far is your own home.

[00:23:59]>> Yeah. So again, like safety apps and self-defense and like you know, yes, maybe sometimes they can help, but like you said, it can be a split second and suddenly it's launch something at your head, >> you know, and I think that it all feeds into stranger danger because it's so much easier to >> conceptualize violence against women and girls when it's >> a stranger walking around the corner and not the but not the reality of women where it's the people closest to them who perpetuate this violence >> fake call outs you mean like where you can kind of have like a man on the phone or whatever those kind of things >> I think again just similar thing well-intentioned I think a lot of people as I say I do that I would ring my mom or friend or [clears throat] my parents whatever but again it's just that it's the same thing it's like it's nice that you're doing this and I think it's well intentioned But is it solving the problem? No. And I al also find, and I'm sure a lot of women can agree with this, that >> every time they invent a new thing, they just find another way around it.

[00:25:10]>> Yeah.

[00:25:10]>> There's another thing. So then the mental checklist just gets longer and longer and longer and longer because then you're planning for every single eventuality. So, one of the things all the time is like, >> oh, you know, if you say you if someone like someone's being inappropriate, whatever. And I've had it before where they're like, oh, do you have a boyfriend? And then I say, yes, because, you know, it's easier. That's what I've been taught to do. Just pretend you have one, and then it gets rid of them. And then I've had it where it's like, oh, but could you be happier? Or, I don't want to be your boyfriend. I just want to be your friend. And then you have you're having to create all of these other narratives. Like it used to be you could just say, "Yeah, I've got a boyfriend." And it would kind of get rid of them.

[00:25:49]>> Do you know what I mean? Like it's just they just adapt and they just find other ways. So it never really >> it helps momentarily potentially and then they go, "Oh, I'm ready for this one next time." And then they have another answer or another.

[00:26:03]>> If someone doesn't respect a woman's voice or woman's boundaries.

[00:26:06]>> Exactly.

[00:26:07]>> Whatever answer you give them, it's never going to be >> 100% 100%. And this is the thing. It's just still going back to women do more.

[00:26:14]Yeah, >> stop it.

[00:26:16]>> Dating apps, I mean, I don't think they're inherently bad. I think in I think in a lot of ways they a lot of the major apps are trying to combat some of the stuff. I think still too much of it is put on women in terms of like you know trackers and things like this. I think dating apps again it's more like it's a tool in which people like social media. I don't think social media is inherently bad. I just think it's another avenue and this is why like it the problem isn't solved unless you solve the problem at the root. Yeah.

[00:26:50]>> Because they just will >> you know social media has many positive and I'm sure you will agree like so much positive that comes out of it and so much that we have been able to do in the world that we would never have been able to do without social media. But there are people abusing it like I think dating apps the same. I think, you know, that's one of the things we talk about a lot is just like the mental load of going on a date and how that differs typically, especially between men and women.

[00:27:18]>> Yeah.

[00:27:19]>> How how many men are sending to their friend, this is a photo just in case, you know, just in case they don't make it home. How many how many boys are their friends checking in not to see how they are, to check they're still okay.

[00:27:29]How many men on a date are not leaving their drink on the table just in case or like, you know, like just all of these things that again, I don't think it's dating apps. I think it's people abu, you know, I never really think it's >> the app isn't the issue. It's the people using the app >> and it's more like they need better vetting. Like they need better like, you know, once someone's reported this person assaulted me on a date, then they should be removed. Like there's not again it's not strict enough in preventing the harm happening in the first place. It's a lot more like, oh, here's, you know, you can send that you to your friend that you're on a date or whatever.

[00:28:03]>> Yeah. which is like well always well intention but I just think societal narrative is just so focused on women staying safe that people how often I have meetings with people and they're like oh we could give women and I'm like no why are we still giving women more stuff to do >> there's a million tracker apps safety apps alarms personal safety devices like the problem is not going away >> we have to start looking at it from a different lens and yeah it's just that I think that's the thing like that all of these things are they're just like yeah a dating app is just a tool right I think it can be used for very positive things as well it's just there's not enough like society there's not enough prevention of harm there's not enough consequences when harm does happen to prevent further harm happening to other people I think that's where the big problems are and we have to better incentivize these companies to actually focus on that part of the problem >> you did a brilliant job of bringing me on to hassle so What is Hassel? What is the mission?

[00:29:04]>> Yeah, so Hassel is a social enterprise that is all about tackling harassment and violence against women and girls at the root globally. Um, and we always say our mission is to redirect responsibility away from women as individuals to stay safe and onto society as a whole to do better. And that's primarily by inviting men to be part of the conversation and the solution. um but also working with organizations, businesses, bodies, brands, whoever it is to basically create systemic change so that one day women don't have to think about these things. That's essentially what we do.

[00:29:39]So we have right now a combination of uh workshops. Again, it's not like HR training. It's very much understanding the mental load, understanding the narratives around stay safe and all this kind of stuff, media narratives, all this kind of thing. So, uh, it's kind of the other side to HR compliance where it's just like, okay, don't get into trouble. Report, you know, XY Z. It's kind of understanding why people don't report because the systems are broken, all this kind of stuff. We have free education resources, so they're primarily designed for men because it's normally women doing the work and educating and that wasn't what I wanted to do. So, everything's primarily designed for men. Um we have an ambassador program part of which we have a men's initiative. So we have regular calls um with men all over the world. So they can like ask questions you know if it's about certain situations or if it's just like they share like different like ideas or situations or just things that they've done better since like joining hustle for example to actively be part of the solution. And this isn't necessarily like bystander stuff. this is like if they're in a position in the workplace to create safer environments or whatever, you know, these kind of things where we're not just reacting in the moment, but we're actually preventing harm in the first place. So, we have several things like that.

[00:30:54]Obviously, we do stuff on social media and we have awareness campaigns which are very much designed to um always say like flip things around and mindset shift. It's not just like someone being violently attacked and then be like, "Oh, let's not attack people cuz that doesn't work." is about how do we reach everyone on that scale. So, we have about 20 million organic views on our awareness campaigns that we literally made for like no money. So, it's really like creating stuff that's highly sharable. We've had loads of people comment being like, "They've showed this in my school and like this kind of thing, which is so good that it's getting out there." I mean, we're just 18 months old, so that's kind of like where we're at now. A lot of the things we've been working on in the background are partnerships, especially with like predominantly male industries. So things like construction, sport, utilities, um all the industries, music, transport, all the things where either it's predominantly male or where you've got the most public harassment issues kind of thing. So yeah, just working on developing basically industry specific um initiatives that all focus on prevention and that's going to be like probably in time our main focus point. we kind of had to get the the public on board first to be like this is what we want. Now we we haven't done any outreach. Everyone's come to us which is a great position to be in. So there is the demand there and I do think people are ready for change more than ever. And they also see you know unfortunately you kind of have to show them what their benefit not only is you know we don't position this as kind of corporate social responsibility. This is like a strategic partnership to not not just things like brand reputation, but very tangible things, you know, like for example, women aren't getting public transport because they don't feel safe.

[00:32:39]Their public transport's losing money. I remember my partner saying to me, um, like I was getting like a 50 quid, 60 quid Uber back from a night out and he was like it it was 2:00 in the morning and he was like, "Oh, the best is only £3." I was like, "I'm not getting on the bus at 3:00 a.m.

[00:32:55]>> No chance." And like this was really early and I was living together like now he's used to the he's used to the regular like oh I'm going to phone you when I got off the train or like he'll come and pick me up or even just walk me home. Yeah, they just don't they do this in like the workshops because we do like a mental load thing where >> I often use the taxi example and just go what what are things you think about when you're getting a taxi and it doesn't matter what room what women are in that like I don't need to I don't need to worry that they're not going to have stuff and then you know often the women will all be like you know I wouldn't book it I'd only take it if it was on an app and I'd check the registration plate and I'd sometimes take photos of the driver or the registration plate and I'd sit in a certain place so I felt safer and I wouldn't tell him the exact location I get dropped off a certain place or I wouldn't open my door until they've left or I wouldn't accept drinks when they offer bottles of water or what there's just like a million different things right and so often the men just sit there and are like oh my god >> I had no idea I've never ever thought about this >> yeah or they might think of like you know the other when we did that one not that long ago and a guy put his hand up said the only thing I think about is in terms of safety is if I'm if they're texting and I feel like they might crash. That's the only thing.

[00:34:10]>> And I thought and and they're actually like with the response has been so good because I think so often especially in like HR stuff and whatever and it's not to kind of talk down about what other people do, but I think it kind of feels quite don't do this cuz it's wrong or don't slap women on the bum or don't do you know what I mean? and and most maybe the majority aren't actually doing that, >> but they're not really understanding the difference in how we live every single day and what that does. And it's not about you necessarily causing harm, but it's about your lack of awareness and your privilege that you do that we do not have and helping men understand that.

[00:34:51]>> Yeah. Because my whole thing is like right now we've got women the violent perpetrators and then we've got the rest of the men who maybe enable some enable it to an extent. What I mean everyone enables it to an extent even women but you know aren't violent perpetrators necessarily who are just oblivious and it's frustrating because people like well men should know there's so much I agree I agree there's so much information out there but you could say that about any social issue. Oh well people shouldn't be racist. there's so much information.

[00:35:22]I agree. I wish they weren't, but that's not the reality. And we found that by having these conversations in an accessible way, there's actually so many men have actually started to engage with it and try and do better. That was my next question because I I wanted to know how the engagement what the engagement's been like from men.

[00:35:43]>> Yeah. And I'd also love to hear a little bit more about like the hate comments or the hate um that you get because when the Manosphere documentary came out, >> Yeah.

[00:35:52]>> there were some interesting social media posts from men >> Yeah.

[00:35:57]>> who were really criticizing the documentary for highlighting >> men in a negative way. And they were saying, you know, we've got men who are dealing with mental health and men who don't feel proud to be men anymore. And this Manosphere documentary, it doesn't represent all men and it's just making men feel [ __ ] about themselves.

[00:36:17]>> Yeah.

[00:36:18]>> And I'd imagine that there you talking about these issues might bring about a similar >> 100% >> um similar response.

[00:36:29]>> Yeah, probably more extreme. Um yeah, I think we we get we get hate from a whole spectrum. I mean, we do get like death threats and I won't repeat, but we deserve to have horrible things done to us and XY Z and this kind of thing. What's the rationale? [laughter] Like I just the way even the Manosphere documentary I cannot for the life of me understand why that was a controversial things put out.

[00:36:57]It's highlighting something that we can all if you watch it you can see black and white what is what is happening.

[00:37:05]>> Yeah.

[00:37:05]>> Highlighting that. Mhm.

[00:37:07]>> If you feel personally offended and personally attacked as a man who watches that, maybe that says more about you.

[00:37:14]>> Yeah. 100%.

[00:37:16]>> You know, >> 100%. And this is the thing. It's I think part of it, and again, it's not to excuse men. I think part of it comes down to especially white, straight, cis men just have never experienced what it's like to not be privileged. And then when they it's not even that they are being oppressed, but when something feels like an attack, it's like it feels like they're being oppressed because they're so used to privilege, right? And I think that's kind of like to some of them how it manifests in their brain.

[00:37:45]Not saying that's okay, but I think when you've never experienced being, you know, having less opportunity or whatever because of something that's like out of your control, then when something like that happens, it does, it can feel like an attack. And if you're more annoyed that men are being represented in that way than that men are doing that to women, you need to take a long hard look at yourself because the outrage I mean it's just again it's like men also suffer considerably at the hands of male violence. So even if you don't care about women, male violence is still a huge problem for men. So it's still bigger than going, "Oh, women are painting everyone with the same brush."

[00:38:26]Your bigger threat is not women. is the men who are violent is still by far your biggest threat. And I, as I say, I think part of it comes from that piece of just never experiencing what it's like to not have privilege almost. But I think what people cuz people say to us all the time, well, if you said this about race, then it would be then it would be counted as racist. So, how is this not sexist? And I'm like, but the common denominator isn't we're talking about common denominator here. The common denominator when it comes to violence across the world, especially sexual violence, is the vast majority of it is perpetrated by men towards people of all genders is perpetrated by men. It's not the same when it comes to race. There's not clear there's there's certain things where but it's put down to structural issues like poverty and things like that again, but there is not it's not one race that's doing this stuff and all the other races aren't doing anything. And that's what they can't comprehend. We're not saying it's all men. We're saying it's almost always a man. And we never know which man until it's too late. And that's the problem. We don't want to think it's all men, >> but it's also if you don't think it's all men and something happens, so why weren't you more careful?

[00:39:39]>> Why don't you do more? Why don't you have more safety apps and self-defense classes and blah blah blah, but then if you do those things, it's like, well, you think all men are bad.

[00:39:47]What do you want us to do?

[00:39:49]>> And then they go, well, just don't leave the house. And I'm like, I would do I would do that if that was a solution.

[00:39:53]However, I'm more unsafe in my own home.

[00:39:55]So, what do you want me to do? Because men will comment on our videos all the time saying that. Well, just don't go out. If it's that dangerous, don't go out. And it's like, we're not even talking about the danger. We're talking about the constant noise. You know, not every single form of harassment, cat calling, whatever leads to violence, >> but it's that constant noise. It's that it's not even it happening. It's constantly having to plan for it. Having to is this about to happen? Do I wear that? Because, oh, should I put something longer? Should I put a longer coat to cover up my top? It's like all of those things >> that's >> the violence is the problem ultimately, but it's all of this stuff >> that they don't think about.

[00:40:32]>> And yeah, I think it is just >> again, it's trying to have that conversation in an accessible way, which is like frustrating. Like obviously sometimes I just want to scream and be like, >> you know, >> yeah, [laughter and clears throat] >> but that's not how I think we create an effective solution. And I do think from the work we've done, if you just give men a path, a lot of them will actually do something about it. So I mean, we have more than a thousand men now part of our online advocacy program from all over the world. We also have like we launched our resources a few months ago and we've had thousands of men using our resources.

[00:41:08]Not just using them, but then sending them being like, "Oh, I run like this youth club I'm going to use in this." or you know just like sending them on to other people or being like oh can I get posters for my workplace cuz I want to put posters up and like all this kind of exponential effect plus we have what hundreds of thousands of men following us on socials where we're like educating and we have a lot of men creating content and yes it's a very small number in the scheme of the whole world but I think considering we've done it in a very short space of time and we're a team of three people and we have no funding I think gives a pretty good indication that this is actually got potential to create change, you know, >> and needed.

[00:41:50]>> Yeah. And I think a lot of men just say to us, I've never felt like there was a place where I could do something and not I didn't want to get it wrong. I didn't want to speak over women or a lot of women safety brands are about women.

[00:42:00]They're aimed at women. They're marketed to women, which of course they are, but ours is aimed at men primarily. And then they've just been like, you know, and it's it is it's I hate sometimes that you have to use this, but you know, it's dads, it's granddads, it's partners, it's whatever it takes. Whatever it takes at this point to get you in. Once you're in, we can work on you actually caring about the greater good of the world. But like whatever it takes for that initial thing, you know, and people said it wouldn't work, but it is. So, we're doing it anyway.

[00:42:32]>> Yay. It's amazing what you're doing.

[00:42:34]We've got a video. Mhm.

[00:42:36]>> that I want to show you to get your opinions on.

[00:42:38]>> Yeah.

[00:42:39]>> But first, a couple of community questions.

[00:42:42]>> How can we encourage men to become active allies to this message without feeling defensive or blamed?

[00:42:48]>> Okay. So, the first thing I would say is, and this is again personal choice, but I we don't really use the term allies, and it's because especially for younger boys, ally can feel like you're separating. Like all you want to do is be included and be cool and all that kind of stuff. And obviously if you're going, "Oh, I'm a male ally." As like a 16-year-old boy, you might feel like you're going to be a bit, you know, so we talk about it as like being a man is because the whole thing is like it shouldn't be that you're a man or an ally. It should be that you're a man or a misogynist because the man should be >> the the common the common the majority.

[00:43:29]>> The default should be I mean I think the same with like LGBTQIA plus allies and all this kind. it should just be human or homophobe. That's my opinion. But I think also it helps people come into that conversation when it's just like no, we're just talking about what it means to be a man. We're not talking about male feminist, male ally. That kind of freaks them out, especially if they're further down that scale. Right?

[00:43:48]So that's the first thing. And second thing I would say is again, it's not easy and I don't believe or preach that women should forgive men or have to give men grace or anything like that. But from a effective change perspective, like if you're in a position of influence, like a teacher or someone who's senior in a workplace or whatever it might be, I always preach the whole thing of meeting people where they are and giving people grace to do better.

[00:44:10]Trying to understand why people think the way they do. Recognizing your own privilege in the way that you think because I didn't do that for a long time. And actually because I was raised being taught about all this stuff, I have privilege where I don't know if I was raised in a misogynistic household that I wouldn't have been a misogynist.

[00:44:28]>> I'd like to think I wouldn't, but you never know, right? And so other people didn't necessarily have access to the same parents teaching them stuff or critical thinking like abilities or whatever it might be. So trying to understand why people think the way they do and also just using the using the questions of like oh what do you mean by that and not in like a combative way but just trying to understand because so often people like regurgitating something they've seen online or certain influencers said or someone in the family said or whatever it is. And if you can try and understand why they think that way, you've got far more chance of coming back to them with something that they can respond to. if that makes sense, rather than if you just I mean, if you get angry, they're just going to shut down. It's not to say that women shouldn't get angry. I get angry about it all the time. You know what I mean? But it's like if you want to create effective change from a systemic level, from a position of influence, I believe you have to understand why people think the way they think. Try and meet people at that point. Get them what don't try and turn them overnight from being a raging misogynist to a women's right rights activist. It's not going to happen. I mean, in very rare cases, but you know what I mean. Um, but but just trying to get people up one step on that ladder.

[00:45:42]That's what I always kind of push people to do.

[00:45:45]>> We're going to come on to another section called real or um not real. So, I'm going to show you a video and I'd love to know what your thoughts are.

[00:45:53]>> Men who do not abuse or sexually assault women still directly benefit from the violence of the men who do. The existence of violent men lowers the standard of behavior for men so low that as a man, all you have to do to be considered a good guy is refrain from raping someone. You don't have to actually protect women. You don't have to stand up to your friends who hit their girlfriends simply by virtue of not being a direct perpetrator of violence against women yourself. You are considered a saint deserving of special treatment because violent men have lowered the bar for you. What would be considered basic decency for a woman practically qualifies a man for a Nobel Peace Prize. And women are encouraged to reward men for bare minimum kindness.

[00:46:28]Most men don't protect women. Most men don't step in when they see a woman being abused. Most men defend their favorite athletes when they're accused of rape. And that's because these men believe that not being a rapist or an abuser themselves is enough. 50% of women will experience some form of sexual abuse in their lives. And 95% of sexual abuse perpetrators are men.

[00:46:46]You've never defended a woman in your life, but because you've never raped one either, you think that you're God's gift to women. Women are often convinced that they have the world's best husband just because he doesn't scream at her and punch holes in the walls. Never mind that he doesn't know your kid's birthday and has no idea where you keep the vacuum. The fact that he's never slapped you during an argument means Jeff is a total sweetheart. Guys love to get in my comments and say, "Not all men. Not all men." And maybe in the most basic babyrained way, you might be right. Not all men are abusive towards women, but all men do benefit from women's abuse.

[00:47:13]Men who do not abuse >> agree with every single thing.

[00:47:17]>> Oh my god. I mean, just on point in every single way. I think this is the thing like we always say it's it's a tricky balance to strike when you're doing what we're doing in terms of like celebrating the men who are taking part and who are because it is a big thing to do in a way right and just before I get cancelled um in the sense that you are stepping out of the norm of what has always been but it shouldn't be a big thing it should be very bare minimum and it's trying to strike that balance between going like >> okay this is what we want men to be I can look like, but also this isn't like the most incredible thing in the whole wide world. This is just how it should be.

[00:47:56]>> Yeah.

[00:47:56]>> And it's it's a it's definitely I agree with every single thing she said. I think there was um a pod that Australian those two guys who do that Australian podcast, I can't remember what it's called now, and they talked about this on there. Um and it was just like that a it was something like a what's the word? like a really amazing guy is just the average woman.

[00:48:20]>> And that's what they talked about in like a very they're very like green flag as men go. But in the way that they were saying like you know all of these things that we celebrate men for doing women are just expected or even not even expected but like have negative things thrown at them when they do it.

[00:48:36]Like there's so many things I you know like baby oh babysitting your kids like what a great guy. Like no they're his children. You can't babysit your own kids.

[00:48:44]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> But it's like, well, it's like, you know, if he has a career, he's a he's a provider. He's XY Z. If she has a career, she's neglectful. She's selfish.

[00:48:52]She doesn't There's just like constantly this like double and this is like some of the things we talk about as well because all of this plays into the same problem ultimately, right? And yeah, I think it is just that me and my friend used to have this thing like a couple of years ago where we'd say something about a guy like when we were who we were dating or whatever and then we just go >> low bar low bar. We like mentally check ourselves cuz we be like, "Oh my god, like you know I left and like I went home and like he didn't even try to like come back with me and then we'd be like oh that's so good. And then we be like, "Oh my god, this is actually like appalling that we're basically saying that this guy was so amazing cuz he didn't force himself on you." Like, because it is. And there's this weird weird in between of like if women wake up to it too much, they won't want to be in relationships because there's such a small percentage of men who are decent women, if that makes sense, who have the same traits because it is that they've never had to. and because of patriarchy and because of privilege.

[00:49:55]>> So, it doesn't necessarily on individual level make them a bad person.

[00:50:00]>> But, you know, I think more and more women are just getting infuriated by their own partners. Yeah.

[00:50:05]>> Especially if they've been with them a long time that Yeah. Why am I Why am I just expected to do every single thing in the house? And like even though we both have jobs and we both earn similar amounts and >> yeah, >> you know, it is that women do most of the unpaid labor, women do most of the unpaid care, like >> that's the standard across the world. So my poor fiance gets absolutely gets his entire life shared on this podcast. But the bar is in health men. The bar really is in health men. But the biggest green flag of this man is I remember like say the first time I said to him, I'm not getting the burst. Do you not are you not worried about me getting attacked and raped? And then ever since then, I never walk home without him being on the phone or him being like with me if he is there. The awareness was raised >> and then the action the behavior changed. When we moved in together, I'd back to back 12-hour shifts and I was coming home every day. The bathroom was just getting more and more untidy, more and more dirty, more and more dirty. And I was like, and I just I came home from a 12-hour shift and I snapped it and I was like, I'm working. I've worked for 12 hour shifts. That bathroom is disgusting.

[00:51:12]>> Yeah, I shouldn't have to be thinking.

[00:51:13]>> I'm not Why have you not cleaned that?

[00:51:16]>> Snapped. The domestic labor is almost I'm almost like living like a kept woman. Like he's a phenomenal man. And like maybe I want to end on that by saying >> there are there are men who will listen and take like >> take real action and who are willing to change, but it does require raising that awareness. So, I think it's just absolutely incredible that you are doing raising that awareness, which is why it's been so wonderful to have you on.

[00:51:43]>> Um, so I'm going to ask you the final question that we ask all our guests.

[00:51:46]Amy, what do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25?

[00:51:50]>> I think on this topic specifically, just that if something happens to you, it's not your fault. I think that's such a thing that we're conditioned to think and that women don't unlearn for often a very long time. And it's never about you knowing. It's never about you not preventing it. It's never about you not doing enough. And I think that's the thing that we get messages every day like, "But did I?" No, I don't even need to know what the story is. You didn't.

[00:52:20]And that's what I think every because it prevents us from living our lives, from talking about our stories, from reporting, from all of these other things. And if every woman knew it wasn't her fault, then I think we'd make a significant amount of progress when it came to this issue. Again, the standards for men and women are just completely incomparable. There is no world where you walking down a dark alley is comparable to the person who attacked you. that there is no comparison between one is an active act of violence. It shouldn't even be considered a mistake. It should be a a freedom. You know, we can't compare those two things at all.

[00:53:06]>> No.

[00:53:06]>> You know, ever. And I think that's such an important message to end on. So, thank you so so so so much. We will leave all the details for how to find Hustle in the description. And especially if there's any men listening and you want to get involved, then come on. Yeah, absolutely. [laughter]