A successful line producer must master the art of reading scripts through a producer's lens, identifying every hidden cost that can make or break a film's budget, while maintaining crucial filmmaker relationships by understanding that saying 'no' is an art form that requires balancing creative vision with financial reality. The key skills include understanding schedule, budget, and communication as interconnected elements, recognizing that every crew member's work connects to the larger production puzzle, and developing the ability to see connections between different production elements that others cannot perceive.
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How to Build a Successful Career as a Hollywood Line Producer | Stephen MarinaccioAñadido:
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>> That was like your pivot out of architecture into >> Yeah. Wow. You really have dug deep.
Wow.
>> I don't even know why I'm here.
>> You know it.
>> We need to talk about him behind his back, you know.
>> Are you AI?
>> Yeah.
>> Exactly. Um Well, that's our No, that's our very very human producer Poppin Bear. No, Chris, this be it'd be a fun episode behind the back of Steven Marinacio.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
Hello. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Make It Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Barkley.
>> And I'm your host, Nicholas Bugs.
Christopher, it is wonderful to see you, my friend.
>> Wonderful to see you. And with us on this podcasting journey, per usual, is producer Papa Bear and our esteemed guest today, Stephen Marinacio. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Make It Podcast.
You know, Nick, I saw something this week that really blew my mind, which is there's a new wrestler, and I I know you're a man of games, you're a man of toys. Uh, Stephen, you might as well >> think such things. You know, what makes you think such things?
>> You're a man of fun.
>> I am indeed.
>> And I mean this in all the most sweet ways. There's a new wrestler out there and his name is Jesus.
And >> I'm not kidding you. His name is No. No.
No. It's not. Chris, you're you're looking into the Mexican wrestling. That dude's name is Jesus. Okay.
Just wrong. Is Jesus. Okay.
>> So Jesus, the wrestler, is dressed in the traditional sort of Hebrew sort of garb, right? He's in full Jesus garb. And his whole stick is that he doesn't have to touch you to defeat you. And so he just does stuff.
He just does stuff like this. And then you fall in the air. The rest, you know, Papa Bear hates fake wrestling. But uh but the the fake the fake wrestler, Papa Bear stops in the air as if Jesus the wrestler did something to him. And uh and all of a sudden he can't get close to him. And like Jesus the wrestler is like choking this guy out, but he's four feet away from him.
>> And it's unbelievable. And I was thinking I got to tell Nick and Papa Bear this because how in the hell has this not been thought of yet?
>> Listen, listen.
>> It's 2026 and we're just not getting Jesus the Wrestler.
>> I've seen some of this stuff before cuz there's there's the WCW, there's a WWE, WWF type of stuff. a lot of acronyms >> and then you Yeah. But then you've got this stuff that's on to the side and that's where they get crazy and they're like we've got the sorcerer blah blah blah and you know they're putting spells on people and I'm just like bro like I here here's the thing. I love that people love it because it's fun.
>> It's fun. It doesn't like everything doesn't have to be so serious.
>> Let it be fun. Let Jesus. And now that Jesus is there, you know, they're going to have a dude come out and be BL's the bub, you know, and he's gonna people like they're going to be signs out that say, "Hey, Bub."
So, >> well, I feel like they had the devil for a long time, right? The Undertaker was the devil.
>> No, he wasn't. He's the Undertaker.
That's different.
>> There's a few people who've been devillike, but there's never been a Jesus.
>> Well, there's never been a BLB. I don't think there has been. So, I'm waiting for Bub. I it's going to be great when I see the signs out there and everybody rooting them on and I want to see what happen Thriller in Manila. The new thriller in Manila is Belle versus Jesus. The winner for Dominion of the world.
>> Well, thank you. You know what's really interesting is when he goes to the concession stand, he just gets water.
>> But water.
>> Exactly. Maybe some bread.
>> Yeah.
>> But he just turns the water into wine.
He doesn't have to pay for alcohol.
>> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> Doesn't have to just show a card.
>> He doesn't have to show card.
>> He doesn't have to go to the stand. Just bring Just hover it over. Anyway, I just thought that was like the weirdest. I mean, in a in a in a world where we are blessed to live in interesting times, right? I don't think many people view it that way. They view it as like >> these are really weird times we're living in. Um, I just thought, "Wow, >> Jesus the wrestler found a way to break through the noise, >> right?"
>> Like, he found a way to break through the noise. I can't believe it. So, anyway, we have a very, very special guest today. This man has done it all.
Stephen. Yep. That there he is, the one and only. And as we get started, I just want to um give you an opportunity to tell the people as we go into story is king, our first segment, per usual. Tell the people what we should know you for.
Um, I mean, I think I I think it as far as my career goes, I think it's based on how I sort of market myself as a a worldwide knowledgeable line producer, DJUPM.
Um, I'm I'm very proud of the fact that I can go into odd places um and um and make it work. like if it's in the middle of nowhere land and and that place doesn't have a film infrastructure, understanding all the pieces of the puzzle that I have to find locally to make that work or going into a place or getting onto a show where other people are having trouble and going in and and saying, "Okay, let's let's reset and figure out what we need to do here." I I think that's that's my biggest thing that I I love people to know about me is that I'm a problem solver. And, you know, no challenge is too big. In fact, the bigger the challenge, the more complex the challenge, uh, the more fun it is. You know, the some people would say, um, you know, oh, this this project is going to shoot in nine different countries and it's going to be crazy and it's going to be awesome and I'm like, where do I sign up?
>> That's awesome. I want to do that. Not just for the ego of it or the the the cool factor of it or getting to travel a lot. It's it's all those pieces of the puzzle. you know, you're working on a show like that and and you don't really have a lot of time to like sightsee in all those places, but going there and figuring it out how to make that show work and make sure that other people are doing great work and you're setting yourself up and them up for great work and success, that's the that's the real true sort of art of what I do. And uh I think that's that's the key thing that is is me from a career standpoint. I wanted to read a short bio of of some of your accomplishments to the audience as well. And because that global thing sticks out to me, it's first it's personal uh but also it sticks out to me in an interesting way. So I just want to share a little bit about what you mean when you say global. So this is just a short bio and you can tell me if anything's wrong.
With more than 35 years of experience spanning over 80 film, television, and documentary projects, Stephen is a veteran line producer, DJ unit production manager, and second unit director known for overseeing productions ranging from indie films to $200 million studio temp poles across more than, as Stephen mentioned, 30 countries. After beginning his career in broadcast news as the youngest news director at his local CBS affiliate, he transitioned into Hollywood and rose from set PA to working alongside Jim Cameron on Ghost of the Was the final title of that Ghost of the Abyss, by the way.
>> Correct. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Ghost of the Abyss. His credits include major productions such as Marco Polo, Jack Ryan, gigantic show. While his leadership experience also includes serving as interim VP of television production at Paramount in addition to producing and consulting on large-scale international productions, Marinacio recently uh that's you Stephen uh co-developed Line Budgeter, which we're going to talk about here in a second, which is a next generation budgeting platform designed to modernize production, planning, and financing worldwide. And I do want to talk about line budgeter because one thing you told me in our initial conversation together just as friends offline.
>> Yeah.
>> Um is that it blew my mind which is that >> the current software and and we can mention it. I mean movie magic I think is kind of the the one but like it was made by PAs and that there's never been production software actually made by real line producers before. That blew my mind when you told me that.
>> Yeah, I mean way back in the day there there was a different set of experience, but that I think that's what you find mostly with a lot of the applications that are out there today and throughout the the the time period. for the most part and I I don't want to say that emphatically this is true on everything but for the most part I'm seeing especially in the the recent probably two or three years last two or three years when everyone and their brother can you know vibe out a uh an application that they have some great idea for.
>> Um but it's it's not even halfbaked.
It's it's it's this person who has been on set barely has barely two or three years of experience have something and saying, "Oh, I have an idea on how to do it better." That's like me working on a construction set, seeing how a crane works. And I'm like, "You know what? I know this is only my second job in construction, but I think I can make a crane better and I just sort of make a crane." And then all the people with 50 years of experience in crane work would be like, "Yeah, that's not balanced, right? You didn't understand the load capacity. You don't understand the height. all these all the various things that I don't know about cranes would be inserted there by a crane master. Right.
So, and I think that that's what really sets Line Budgeter apart. Uh my co-creator Matt uh and I got together uh probably six years ago in in a very frustrated state of why can't modern applications do XYZ? Why can't it have that? It has the data. Why can't it do this with it? And and what you find is productions around the world that are using that other application um you know they're doing a lot of side pieces like side Excel sheets or Google Sheets and a lot of back of the napkin >> things sheets huge. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I we just didn't and and I I love Google Sheets. I love that ecosystem. But it's there's a time and place for it. And when you're trying to deal with a budget and have that communication across the the crew and the and the, you know, everybody who needs to know it, that information, having to be able to parse that information quickly and get your answers quickly so that you can make decisions hot right there standing on set because you understand how that information is.
It doesn't exist. So we said, let's build it. And as we sort of started, you know, what happens I feel a lot with other applications is someone says, "Well, let's kind of make it like this, but make our buttons blue." Like that's not innovation.
>> We we burned everything to the ground.
We said, "Let's start again. What is a budget?
>> What is a budget? What is what is a line item? Why what data is there is not there that could be there that can make our life easier?" And we didn't think of just a an application that lives in in in our world budgeting or line line producers, UPMs, but we thought about like what does that data mean to accounting and how can we do something now to make their life a little easier?
What can we do to make payroll easier?
What can we do to make the audit for the incentive easier? And how does all that stuff work in an ecosystem that and so we we created an anchor point to collect, manipulate and analyze that data quickly and efficiently to allow you to I feel sort of get back to the fun of being a line producer. You know, I'm a very expensive data entry person on other applications. Now I can use my time more efficiently actually going to the special effects warehouse or going talking to wardrobe or or just sitting with a director for a half hour saying how are you? Right. So usually I'm running around >> problem solving Stephen.
>> Absolutely.
>> Like the practical problem solving you're a great line producer can can provide is is invaluable. like this idea that like they're on set listening to other departments, other HOD's problems >> and then >> within that they can walk in and say from the POV of the person who's controlling the budget, >> right?
>> Right. Can say, well, why don't we just try it this way?
>> Right.
>> Then you're like, >> oh, yeah. And that's that's an interesting thing too because you also get I mean I over the course of career I've seen you know the I'm not I I don't want to point at any particular crew person but certain crew people >> feel free to point to any person >> will stand around will stand around and say well why didn't they this is so stupid they should have you know like if I was in charge I would and your attitude on that I feel would extremely change when you're suddenly the person responsible for $100 million. Yeah, >> right. You're you're I don't act like this is a studio giving me $100 million to sort of go have fun with. I'm acting like a studio is letting me borrow $100 million and I have to be responsible for it. And so if that thing costs $1,000, a a crew person saying, "But we have hundred million." Like, yeah, but I did a budget. And a budget, how a budget works is I only have so much money in each category for those things. And I don't have that money in your category.
I could maybe move some around some other categories, but in this right now I I don't think I can. I always equate it to people's personal budgets. You know, if you have x amount of money that you make in a month and you put so much for your car, so much for gas, so much for food, so much for entertainment and such. And then you say, "I want to go to Disneyland." And you can't. Well, then I'll say, "Yeah, but do you really need food? Do you need like what? Like what what can you do to make it work?" And then you would say, "But I only have this much money a month." And I'll be like, well, but why can't you make it work? It's only $500, right? So, it's that kind of sort of feel that I relate to doing a budget and that's $100 million, right? Even if the budget's $10 million, you still have a budget. You have to be responsible for that. So, >> yeah, you're the trusted custodian of the money flow from the either the EP or the studio to >> to the ultimate viewer of the of the movie. And >> that's just an important middleman, middle woman, middle person. Yeah.
Responsibility. And it's a lot of weight.
>> And I I look at I think about the detail of the job and then how good you are at it. And I think about your military you sort of being a military brat. Like how how did growing up in a military family inform your career decision ultimately in in your mind and and maybe the fact that you're very successful at it? Um, I will tell you my as far as informing my career, uh, uh, fortunately I had parents that were very supportive and and did whatever. And my father was in the military, my grandfathers in the both grandfathers were in the military, their fathers were in the milit like a whole family of military and I nipped that right in the bud. I had a conversation with my dad uh, when I was like 11 and um, and I said, "Do I have to join the military?" And he said, "You can do whatever you want and be proud to be whatever." And he literally said, "You, if you want to be a ditch digger and just do it really well, like just do whatever you want." Well, and it was that moment where I was like, "Good, cuz I want to make commercials at the time.
I wanted to make commercials for television." And and yeah, and yes, I was 11 or 12. I I already knew kind of where I wanted to be. And um and that was the last that was the last thought of having to join the military. And so so in the sense of informing me, it was I was really just able to run with my artistic and creative side and and such.
But that said, living on military bases, being around the military, my my dad was very like, you know, go I think that just led a lot to my my uh my OCD and my ability to uh I say ability, but the the the maybe the curse of having to be everything like this is the spot. this is what we're doing now. This is what we have to do. If if the call time is 7, you show up at 6:59 or Yeah. 6:59. If you're at 7, you're already late, right?
Those kind of things like it, you know, and I would think that most people would agree that >> details.
>> Yeah. It's the details and running a set is not for the faint of heart. And and um when I used to be an AD, >> getting that communication out there, making sure that you know, sort of in a way your army of people out there know what they need to do. They have the gear and equipment and knowledge to do that.
And as a UPM, it sort of extends to the idea of not just are they able to do it, but you know, how is that all interacting with everything else? You you spoke a little bit earlier about having that view. And I think that's one of the keen things that I was um I started to say too about the people on set that might think like, well, why didn't they? But when you're in this position, you have the uh the the viewpoint and the the privilege of seeing stuff from the very beginning, you know, like I I would get a script from a producer and I'm five, six months away from ever even opening a production office, which is then three or four months away from ever rolling camera. And then you have some crew, people that show up for two days of prep and then they're in day three of shooting and they're like, "Well, I don't know why we did this." And I'm like, "Well, because five months ago, >> right, >> we had a conversation that you weren't involved with. Um, and we said this and this is what the director and producers want to do and this is what we this is how we're going to do it." Right?
There's always room for having people be a team player and say, "Hey, I have an idea." But, you know, there's there's the people that understand it and people that don't understand it that like you do know that on day one of filming, you're just doing the plan that we've already planned. This is now your job to do what we've thought about for five, six, eight months ahead of time, right?
So, um, yeah. So, that's, uh, anyway.
>> Yeah, >> that that can come as a shock, too, when you get added to a film project late, you know, like it's like >> sometimes you just need to be reminded, oh yeah, you guys have been working on this for two years, >> right? Got it. There's there's a really, really clear, you know, vision you have in place. I've been guilty of that before coming on late as a EP to certain things. It's like, oh, got it. uh you guys already thought about that a long long long time ago and I'm not bringing the value that I thought I was bringing in that comment that I made.
>> And it's respecting respecting your role and your responsibility. I think that's the thing that's what Stephen's getting down to. It's like everyone has a role, >> right? So your role today is to come in and do what we asked, but you can offer suggestions or recommendations. But that whole I don't know why we did or they should have that's not helpful.
>> No. No. And I think along to that same point is the the idea that um everybody has its place. And one of the things that really grates me is hearing somebody on set and I don't even have to name the department. We all know that uh when they say, "Well, this wouldn't happen if I wasn't here."
>> Yeah, >> that's cool. Um let's talk about this department that brought that gear. Let's talk about the other department that did the PO for it. Let's talk about that other department that did the the information so the PO could even be done. Let's talk about this other department that actually >> So tell me again how you're important.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, like we're all important.
>> We're all here for a reason. I I hired 183 people on this show because every one of them is needed. Not one of them is just here hanging out, >> you know?
>> Yeah. It's the ultimate collaborative job and that's really what you show up for to have that fun. And you know, you were talking about some of those details, Stephen, and I thought about producer Papa Bear, who went to 16 schools in 12 years as a military brat.
And one of the things he always talks to us about is that >> it killed any sense of like racism and bias in him >> because he met people from all over the world at a very young age. He was exposed to all these different cultures and types of people, >> right?
>> And maybe even overexposed to it. So it just kills all that in you and and you become incredibly I guess flexible. You can be like a chameleon. You can go and that's what triggered me when you said global and then in your bio you've been to these 30 countries. Of course you're a boots on the ground producer who can make stuff happen. You probably been around enough people to know just the human heart itself versus oh that's an an Italian person over there. That's a Moroccan or that's an American. You're you know you know what I'm saying? like that that it's kind of a gift even though it might have been sort of a [ __ ] to live through >> in some cases, you know.
>> Yeah, it's interesting the whole um you know like you know the the hardcore definition of racism and also just sort of bias towards or against uh pro or con any particular type of person or person in my country. Um because you know I've shot in uh places that are really awkward, really odd. And I've also like been in the jungles of Cambodia at villages doing research where I'm pretty sure that my day's pay on a show is the net income of everybody in the village, right? And it's super humbling >> and it's it's it's awesome to have that experience. But I also tell people too like you know oh you went to this country and I'm like yeah I didn't go anywhere that's touristy you know like you you you I you know the first time I went to Budapest I spent most of my time in basement and underground dwellings because we were doing a movie that had to have those locations. I didn't go anywhere fun. They're like oh you went to Budapest. How was that? I'm like it was dingy. like I don't you know like I've since been back many times and have found better places to go but um but it was you know it's just one of those things where you go >> on a movie you're you're there to do a job right and you know while you definitely want to try to visit and you know do touris tourism things there uh it is a job and but doing that you get access to seeing how people live how people work you're there for a long time and if you're there as just a tourist you know like uh going to any place and saying oh I've been there and it was there for 2 3 days. But if you're there for 2 3 months and you're tired of eating out at the same restaurant all the time and then you want to go find a grocery store and you want to you have to find where you do your laundry, that's where you start to see the real color of a local um you know the feel of the the locals and how they really work.
And you know then then you get invited over to dinner at some crew person's house that's like the third grip and somehow you just caught on to and you're friends now and you go and now you see how they like it's it's a lot of fun, you know? like I've had dinner on dirt floors in in the Middle East, but that's their house and they that's and they were like very it's so awesome. I I I'm super grateful to all these experiences.
So, um but yeah, having that that attitude and the ability to just walk into places and and try to, >> you know, understand what you need, understand how it works and understand that every place is unique, right?
>> Different countries work different ways.
Um so, you have to be conscious of that.
You were were you born in San Raphael, >> California, by the way?
>> Yes.
>> Uh San Rafale. Yeah. California.
>> Yeah. San Rafale. Where what part of California is that?
>> Uh Northern California, right above um San Francisco, right over the gate. And >> yeah.
>> Yeah. And uh the the the the fun thing about it is that it's about um a 10-minute bike ride from my house was Skywalker Ranch. So that's so as a kid I would drive I would ride down that that that road with friends and we would stop outside and like we were too young to really understand the true scope of what was happening but we're like Luke Skywalker lives there.
>> Right. So um >> that's so cool.
>> So yeah >> I always thought about Fremont being like the military town up there in the north and then I guess I don't even know if it still is. Right.
>> Yeah. I mean, I know I know one of the bases that was in uh Noado um area is now gone, Hamilton. Um yeah, but uh >> but yeah, >> that's very cool. I we've talked a lot about sort of this this path through your your childhood to your career. I'm curious if you had to describe your household growing up there in three words, what would be those three words?
>> Oh, my household. Mhm.
>> Uh, always interesting chaos.
>> Yeah, >> always.
Wait, should >> Always interesting chaos?
>> Nick, Nick, should there be a comma after always? Is always its own word, do you think, Nick? So, >> break down always interesting chaos.
>> A very important qualifier. Yeah, I I think that the the reason why I'm I'm saying those words just off top of my head is is that there was always something happening, right? So, u my sister was very involved. She's the social butterfly of the of the family.
She can go anywhere, do anything, do anything. I'm more of a wallflower, talk to the plant in the at the party. Um and uh but but that said, I was always busy and I was also I because I was very early uh in my life where I decided that I want to make movies for a living. Um I was always that guy who was like, well, I want to go see how that's made or I want to watch a TV show and try to understand how that's done or um you know, I was also like trying to write scripts not knowing what I was doing when I'm nine or 10, you know, like >> it's unbelievable. So yeah, it's just um you know, I didn't I know there's lots of people out there like I started early and stuff like that and and but I didn't have I didn't have the fa friends and family that were in the industry. I'm the only person well not not anymore but I'm only person I was the only real person in my like Marinachio clan family that was in the industry. Um now there's two or three others that I know in in Hollywood, but um >> it's so I didn't really have like a support structure. I was just sort of like, "Oh yeah, you want to make movies?
That's cute." you know, and and and it was I always thought it was just something that people do for fun on the side. They have a real job at like a grocery store or something and then on the weekends they made this movie called Star Wars or something, right? So it's, you know, like and when I realized, oh, this is a real job. It's a real career.
You can really do this. You can really make money on it. I was like, "Oh, that's really what I want to do then."
So yeah, >> what a gift though because we hear about these stories of these virtuoso sort of pianists and they're like, "When when did you start?" Well, I started at 2 years old. We look at like people like Tiger Woods where Elgen's out there making his kid hit the links at 6:00 a.m. every day at 3 years old that he becomes Tiger Woods.
>> And and for the majority of us, we don't have that. We don't have that thing where we were doing the thing so early and we have to like figure it out.
>> And it's just so cool just to know and to be working on and to be in love with something that young and not even know why, but just know that it's connecting.
Yeah.
>> And so it seems like you're doing exactly what you were always supposed to be doing. Um I'm going to put a scenario to you.
>> Yeah.
>> And let's just see how it works out.
Let's just see how you do.
>> Okay.
>> You just met a guy. You Well, yeah. You just met a guy or a guy. You met a person. Okay. And this person's coming to you. They know you. They watched this interview. They watched it and they're inspired by you. They came to you and said, "Hey, Stephen. I think I want to do what you do. I want to be a line producer. Here's the thing. I kind of like like fibbed a little bit. I overexaggerated a little bit. I've got this job. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. So, you've got and it starts in 30 days. So, you have 30 days to teach this person how to be a effective line producer. Let's call it on on an indie budget. Okay. What are the first three things you teach them?
>> Uh to be a line producer. Mhm.
>> Um, first I need to have a conversation with the producer who hired this person and say what um, no, if they if they had to do it in 30 days, the concentration points would be understanding schedule um, and understanding what it means to move things around. I would hope this person has some sort of experience on film making in general to understand gear and equipment and crew and all that stuff. So, let's presume they have some sort of basis. Um, but the schedule is the real killer to understand that like what you can do in a day and what you need to do on another day. Um, how does that interact with all of the elements that from cast to the special gear or other crew needs, you know, that kind of stuff. And then then the probably the lion share of it is the budget and how that actually works. Um, making a good connection with your accounting team, making sure that um, everybody understands what money can be spent and can't be spent. And really probably doing a a hardcore deep dive on communication effects, you know, like understanding that like when you get a piece of information that may be super important, the first thing you do is not react to it. The first thing you is who else you ask is who else needs to know this? Right? So >> that's huge. I like that.
>> It's it's just one of those things where even when I was a coordinator, my my UPM would drill that into me. She said, "You get a call on the phone. before you even walk into my office to tell me that super important thing. Ask yourself, who else needs to know? That way when you walk in, you can say, "Hey, this is happening. Should I call these three people as well?" And then let let me make the decision as the UPM what what goes out, but just think about what needs to happen. And I think that was a really good training ground for me when when I was in that position. So for this theoretical person, I would say you have to understand that flow of information.
If wardrobe is having trouble with something, what does that mean? How does that affect the cast, the ads, the extras, the scene you're going to shoot, the timing, whatever, whatever those things are. And I' I've said this to people before in the sense of like if you can sort of see the web and if there's a little tickle over here, what does this mean over here, here, and here, right? And because it does it does flow down, you know, we can all think of drastic things where like the the grip truck on the way here blew a tire, so it's going to be two hours late. Well, what do you need to do? Right? These are things that everybody think of, but just the the mere fact of like we're running behind because it took a little bit longer to to switch a lens out and the sun is setting and what do we do and how do we move around that? If you've planned and prepped properly and thought about the communication factor, then you can pivot faster and more efficiently.
So I guess that's what it would come to is like how how to think through your schedule, how does your budget get affected by the schedule and how the schedule affects the budget and communication. I think those are the three big things that you'd probably have to really knock out of the park um in 30 days.
>> Yeah. And Stephen just said, look, Stephen Stephen just said you got to be able to see the matrix.
>> And I'm like, man, not everybody's Neo, bro. You know, that's why you do so well in this job. He's like, you got to be able to see things that people can't see. And I think that's that's important and how you get trained up to do that.
Who knows? Maybe it is just a superpower. I was just telling someone uh I think today I was like, you know, I I truly believe everyone has a superpower.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think the true blessing is in recognizing how to apply that superpower. And I think that's why you started so young. Like there was a superpower you realized you had and it's like, "Oh, now I'm in passion to use it." And that's what you're seeing. So I, you know, I appreciate and I know Chris does and our audience appreciates those three things, but at the same time I'm like, man, we can't all be Neo.
Well, well, Nick, we I was literally going to say the same thing. It's so crazy that you said that because I was just about to say like this is like the butterfly effect of film making. And there's a little bit of masochist in every producer because the fun part is the hard part. The problem solving is the fun, but it's also the stress and the thing that makes it >> so unique and difficult in its own way.
Nick, thank you for that. It was spot on.
>> Here's one other thing I'll add, and this I I might be jumping because I feels like this is something that might come up later, but one of the things that I often tell people too about like what is my job? I don't really know what my job is per se until that project presents me with the challenges of that job. But the one key thing I will tell you is I have to think through everything. I do have to come up with ideas. And maybe they're not all great, but then I come up with that idea and then I discuss it with people and I adjust it. But the real key there, the real key, and I I say this in a joking way, but also not in a joking way. My my key job, my key focus on a job is to come up with those ideas. And here's where the real trick is, is to make other people believe that they're their ideas. Here's why.
>> Of course, >> here's why. It's not just to get them to uh do what you really want them to do.
It's the fact that there's there's less ego there. If you're the guy who always comes with the thing, and everybody knows you're the person who's come with the thing, it disenfranchises other people to think outside the box. It disenfranchises them to come up with ideas and to speak up because you never know where that great idea is coming from. It could be the third PA that's been working on the show for two weeks and saw something and said, "Hey, I was thinking about da da da. Is this something we can do?" Or, "I I had a solution for that thing that I saw was an error the other day." You never know because someone's going to say something. And then it makes you go, "Well, that's I yeah, I don't I don't know who you are, but that's a great idea." Um, right. So, it's okay to to let your ego set aside and take the idea from you don't have to be the person with all the ideas, but if you are the person with the ideas, I'm a big proponent of saying let's let's talk through it and and usually you get or you lead someone to like you know the idea, you know where they need to be.
So, you just sort of feed them ideas like yeah, but what if tell me about this again? What is that? And then like okay, so if that's there, that means that this is that thing. And then you see their light bulb go, oh wait, then we can do this thing. And then in my head I'm like, "Ah, you got it. Great.
See you." You know, so like I I was there 10 minutes ago, but I need to lead you there. Because also people I feel sometimes, and I would think this is just human nature, if you're told this is how you have to do it, >> there's more there's a little bit of a I don't know why I have to do like, but if it was your idea and you came up with it and you you connected the dots and thought, "Oh, I understand how all this works and and now I can do it like this and I feel confident about it." I think that emboldens people to do better work.
>> So Stephen, >> I think I have to add something on that.
>> Yeah. Because I I live in that same space. Okay. So we're kindred spirits in that way. But one of the things you said is really important to me and I want to emphasize it. So you said connect the dots.
>> So the reason why it's very easy for you to give credit to others, right, or let them see the credit is because you see it as connecting the dots. So why is that important?
Because you didn't create the dots, >> right?
>> They did.
>> Yeah.
>> They're their dots.
>> Yeah.
>> You are just in a position with a certain level of experience, intellect, OCD, right? Whatever you want to call it.
>> Those things allow you to see the connections between the dots that they created. And that's the challenge that sometimes people have is they only see their dots.
So your job, you come in and say, "Hey guys, guess what? Your dots are awesome."
>> You know, they're perfect. You did such a good job. So let's talk about what it would look like if we connected them.
And that's why you're able to do that.
You're saying, "Hey, look, that's your dot." And they're like, "Yes, that's my dot. That's your dot." And next thing you know, it connects it and it makes a beautiful picture. And you're so willing to give that credit to them because again, you realize that's their dots.
>> Yeah. I mean, it also goes akin to the idea that every every crew person there is there to do great work, right? Nobody nobody's I mean, yes, we could argue the idea that some people are there for a paycheck, but for the most part, people love what they do on a crew, they're there to do good work. And so, you want to encourage people, be it a prop person or a wardrobe person or even the craft service guy to do their best work. And you do that through communication, understanding. You have to understand everybody's job and what they do. Like I I couldn't do a lot of things on set myself. I I could maybe mimic what I might have seen, but don't ask me to run down every name of the gear in the grip truck, right? But I know like, oh yeah, get that thing that has the clip on it that then screws and then mount. Yeah.
Yeah, that thing. Yeah. All right.
Cardellini. Right. So, it's um it's those kind of things that But everybody there, you want to give them that that space and the breath and their ability to shine, right? So, and it's their dots as you say, it's their dots. Shine shine with your dots, right? So, >> I I think what what you and Nick just described is the thing, you know, people are always talking about like, well, hey, what's the culture of XYZ director sets? Like, what's the culture? You hear that as a press junket question all the time. What's it like working with and what you guys just described is the culture, >> the communication between departments and how that flows and the sharing of ideas, how that plays out dictates pretty much the culture of the set for almost everybody working with that particular >> on that particular project and the director takes the credit or the blame for >> the lack of communication there or how things are communicated in general. So, I think it's that's key. Let's wrap up.
Story is king with this.
>> Yeah.
Outside of Line Budgeter, what else goes in the kit? If you had to make a brand kit for a line producer or UPM, what would be in that kit besides Line Budgeter? If you can name brands, books, models, like what what what's that kit look like?
>> I mean, definitely a really good um scheduling software. Um understanding how scripts work. So having things like Final Draft um and understanding how it works so that you can make uh any changes or adjustments that you might need. Um and beyond that uh I one of my key things I I mentioned earlier is the Google suite of things, sheets, docs. Um I I >> yeah the sharing sharing aspects of that. Um >> those are probably the key things. And then beyond that um I'm usually on set never without my iPad. So, um, and, uh, >> cuz I just need to have that communication factor with people and make sure that I'm on it. And, uh, um, beyond that, it's it's just me interacting. I think it's the it's that communication factor. Again, it goes back to that persontoperson thing. It's one thing to text somebody, hey, can you X? U,, it's a different thing to walk into their office and say, hey, can you X? It it it comes off different, right?
So, >> 100%.
>> Yeah. So, >> so did launch in March.
>> Hold on one second. Unbudget launched in March. Just really quick, does it work on everything? Does it work on all you mentioned? Does it work on all the OSS and all the stuff?
>> Yeah, I mean Windows and Mac. Yeah, it Yeah. Um, both of those.
>> Go ahead, Nick. My bad. No, no, no. I was just asking, do you have one of those grip things on the back of your iPad so you can hold it and not drop it?
>> No. I have I I don't like those because then setting it down is wobbly. Um, and then I've tried like bandelier kind of things where it sort of hangs off, but then I'm always scared that my screen's gonna get messed up. So then what's one that can like have a cover but be good and >> so I just carry it around sort of raw.
It has a cover on it but I just carry it around. So it's always in my hand.
>> Raw dogs.
>> Nick, that that his story is king. Why don't you roll out audience polls?
Speaking of raw dogs.
>> Yeah, for sure. Well, we'll have some fun with this one. So, I've got two of them. Uh, one of them is more technical, you know, I guess you could say, and the other one is just >> I got some thoughts. I got some thoughts. So, um, so the first one is when it comes to film financing for independent filmmakers today, what funding path seems most viable? And we gave the audience four options. Mhm.
>> So in order and we have equity investment, private finance here, grants, film foundation funding, >> crowdfunding, comm community, communitybacked obviously, and then streaming pre-sales plus tax incentives. Those are the four options.
>> All right. So now I'm going to read the results >> in the order, right, of the the highest number of votes to the lowest.
>> So the highest was >> highest So, it's not a great movie. Go ahead.
>> Right there you go. Crowdfunding at 60%.
>> Second place was grants at 19%. Then we had equity investment at 12 and streaming pre-sales and tax incentives at 10. Again, crowdfunding coming in number one at 60%.
>> At 60%.
>> I don't I don't I don't agree with that.
If you have a short film, then crowdfunding is number one. Um, potentially outside of equity investment, right? Because a lot of times you can go to like your friends or your family and say or even to some foundation and say, "Hey, I want to make a short film about autism. Can you fund it? I need $5,000." And you might get that. But a feature film crowdfunded seems not viable really. So yeah, that's just my thought.
>> Stephen, >> it's funny that when you read the results, I was pretty sure that you were reading them backwards because that's exactly how I would have answered it.
>> Yes, it's it's the it's the streaming and incentives first, you know, getting equity second and crowdfunding definitely last. But um it's interesting because yeah, you bring up a good point, Chris, the uh shorts definitely crowdfunding. I I can see that. That's that's an easy ask, especially when you're in the5 to $20,000 range.
>> But you get up to a $18 million movie, that's not crowdfunding.
>> Yeah. Well, I don't think now that now the the caveat here is that the question was about >> independent filmmakers, right? So, when you get when you say 18 million, I know that there's some independent films that might hit that range, >> but I think there's a range for independent filmmakers. And it's interesting because I think it's anywhere from what, Chris? 250,000 to five million, right? Might be the independent range in India is from zero dollars to to >> Well, yeah, of course million, right?
Like like it could be that low.
>> I uh but >> I know what you're saying, Nick. Like like so Stephen, would you consider Anora a indie film?
>> Definitely.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. So Nick would call that a pseudo indie where >> Well, that was six million, right? and 18 million on the market.
>> 18 from PNA. Yeah, >> right.
>> 24 million. 25 million.
>> I don't know where they got the extra 18 from but six million to make the film.
So, if we're just making it making the film, you're talking about $6 million.
So, let's just talk about that budget.
>> Yeah. Is it realistic to raise $6 million via crowdfunding?
>> I don't think so.
>> That's tough. I I would think that the way to do that is and I I I I forget the name of the guy who did it for some medical show movie recently and uh but it was a name it was a name behind it >> that said hey I'm I want to do this thing hey fans can you help and he raised some ungodly amount of money um and then got the show kicked off but um but if you don't have that for a movie that has a and I'm not saying anything about anybody particularly but if you have nobody you know, or even literally have nobody yet. Um, that's that's a harder harder pull because, you know, then what are you doing in crowdfunding? And I I'll admit I don't know as much about crowdfunding for features. Um, but you know, the the idea like, you know, give a hundred bucks and you're an EP like >> that's a nightmare on the back end.
Nightmare, >> right? With that kind of >> I I hear what you're saying. I think Stephen >> Mick and I manage a back end of a film right now.
>> It's a back end. It's it's it's work.
And then >> No, no, but forget the back end. I think Stephen's more like you're not an EP at $100.
>> No, but but what happens in crowdfunding is to raise $6 million at $100 a piece and everybody's an EP, >> right?
>> The management of that number of people to million would crush you.
>> Yeah. But they never they never give the EP credit at 100. But even calling them, the whole point is >> giving them saying $100 in your EP, >> it's it's a disingenuous >> any producer level, any any producer.
>> Yeah. First of all, yes, Nick, it's disingenuous, but then second of all, >> it doesn't scale very well for the film, right? like you like you do have to sort of manage even if it's just thank yous at $100 >> that going up to 6 million like it's like how many cards is that just like going down your movie like thank you thank you thank you so it it yeah it you I think though I will give so shout out to Emily Best that runs Seed and Spark she came and did a talk here with us at the National Film Festival and she did it at MPT uh shout out to you Sarah Childress, if you're watching this, it was a great event.
You can, let's say, raise like the bridge funding that way. Like, let's say you had a $3 million film, right? You shot it and now you realize, oh my god, uh, I can't get it out of post because I put off the VFX for some reason. And, you know, I was like, we'll fix it in post. And then we got to post. By the way, current current pain on that. But the uh and and you said that and now and now you need to raise $50,000 to finish the film. I think that >> is that is that the same, Nick? Is that the same as funding your feature film? I mean, it kind of is.
>> Yeah, it's not funding it. But I think that's that's smart. I think this is why I thought the poll was interesting, right? Because I think that there is this idea that if you're an independent filmmaker, crowdfunding is just the way to go. Yeah.
>> And I think that might also be >> I don't know. It's it's people thinking that maybe your film is just small enough >> that you can make that work. So they would never be thinking $6 million because independent filmmakers don't make $6 million movies. So they might be thinking it's a maybe it's tens of thousands as an independent filmmaker because as an independent filmmaker, you know, you're making an independent thing. It's not a studio thing. There's not a bunch of marketing. There's not a bunch of cast. So it should be relatively inexpensive and by default community raise is the way to go. So I think that's what I'm seeing is like there's a psychology in the answer that I think we're discovering and the psychology isn't necessarily aligned with the business with the reality like the the hope factor. It's like a kid watching Michael Jordan and they're like >> I can do that one day. No you can >> just wear the shoes.
uh like in the mo in the movie business that's like the Blair Witch Project or like uh Napoleon Dynamite. Those films give filmmakers hope. They wake up and say, "Well, if they can make that, then we can make our Napoleon Dynamite and we'll and you know, it's like so many things had to go right." You know, >> the lightning in the bottle is hard to capture. And the the other thing, and I I won't point at one any any in particular, but we can all come up with the scenarios of films are like this.
What what kind of sort I'm going to say bothers for lack of a better term, but it's not like I'm up at night sleeping, not sleeping because of it, but what bothers me about hearing about those things like I did my movie for $100 million or $100,000 and we made, you know, $80 million in the in the um uh box office. While that's cool, telling people that you made it for $100,000 is disingenuous because what you did was you created something, but then it was picked up by a studio who then sunk $3.5 million into finishing your post and putting in music and then they put $11 million into PNA.
>> So your $15 million movie made $80 million. That's still good. Not taking away from that. But it what bothers me is there was one in particular movie I won't name it. One particular movie that came out to name >> they uh that came out a while ago that they were very very happy about uh it only cost $3,500 to make.
>> And I said, "No, it didn't. You spent $3,500 just on food, >> right?" Like that's like, "Oh, but we went to Best Buy and bought the camera and then we returned it." Well, that's that's rude for the person that gets the camera after you.
>> That's not cool, man.
>> You know, and um but it's just it's just that thing of like but you didn't you you definitely paid some side money for fuel to crew or you paid this and that.
The 3500 is this figment of like it's a marketing thing, right? That's like, oh, we made this for nothing and we made $100 million. Like >> you're you're spot on, Stephen. You're spot on. I was just having Indian food the other night with with my team and they were talking about well what about this movie and that movie? I said yes but they got picked up and once they get once you get picked up then that's what the people see. They don't see >> when it was first made and released and before it was picked up >> and it changes it changes everything.
Anyway, this is a very interesting poll, Nick.
For those filmmakers out there, the effort it takes to build a quality Kickstarter or seed and spark page, that effort could also go to finding high net worth individuals who just will find a uh fiscal sponsorship to give the money to who will turn around and give that money to you, right? Like like those are to me, Nick, those are like equal chances at minimum, right? like a high net worth individual that needs to to to shed some income. That that makes sense to them at least.
>> Where do I put my number on the screen cuz I need those people too.
>> Exactly.
>> Throw that in the chat. Throw that in the chat.
>> 555 line producer.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
>> We're going to go to the Yep. We're going to go to the next one. And the next one is just an interesting one.
Again, it's the psychology of things, but it's just two options. And the question is, which would you rather be a music producer >> or a TV and movie producer?
Okay. So again, in order with 75% music producer, 25% TV movie producer.
>> Yeah.
>> So again, I have thoughts, but Stephen, what do you think?
>> Once again, backwards. I mean, you know, yeah, I I'm I'm definitely not the music producer type. So, yeah.
>> Yeah. So, so for me, the psychology on this one, Stephen, is celebrity.
>> Like, honestly, >> look out into the world.
>> Look up. Look it up. Now, who's the celebrity?
>> It's music producers, >> right? We don't hear about TV and movie producers. They're not celebrities. It's the director, the writer, the actor, >> right? But the producers, the glue, >> they don't become celebrities. But in music, man, they're the ones who seem to be just as just as high of a celebrity as the artists themselves or they are considered artists themselves. So, I think that's what that is. It's like, oh no, I want to be popular. I could think of famous I could think of famous producers in in in in the movie business and maybe that's because I'm a little older. So maybe like there's less famous producers for this generation in this this century, right? Like a lot of them come to my mind.
>> Oh, Chris, you're in the biz, man.
That's why you know them.
>> Well, don't Yeah, maybe. So, but but that wasn't even my point. My point was the other cool thing about being a music producer is like unless you commit a felonious crime or something like that like your failures are always hidden from the public when a producer fails it's like on the front page like >> you mean TV and film? Yeah.
>> Yeah. Like if you fail as a as a like if you had the biggest flop in the world like your name is synonymous with this flop forever and you can't get out of it like or like it it like a music producer no one says oh that that song did nothing that all stays in industry right like it doesn't show up on page >> because they can make 372 songs you know a film producer like a movie producer you can make one movie over 10 years bro like >> yeah yeah yeah >> it takes some work produ Yeah film Oh, was it music? He'll just make Yeah, I I made with this artist, that artist. But my whole point is it gets back to this idea of celebrity and you know I also wonder too like I so I did I was looking at some data from um you know just basically statistics in the United States >> and I was looking at some of the statistics around uh film production >> and what's interesting I think is that as far as like actors versus producers and directors >> there's like six times as many producers and directors as there are actors. Wow.
>> I was like, >> that's that's crazy. But >> wow, >> if you think about a production team and how many of those folks would actually be hired onto a project, then I'm like, yeah, that makes sense.
>> So, these people are focused on the celebrity of things. And I think, you know what, it'd be great to have a consistent day job. It would be awesome to get hired over and over again for this work >> and have a much higher chance of being able to get that job. Right? So music producer, especially a celebrity music producer, what are the chances?
>> But being a working producer, the chances are significantly higher. So again, I think there's this bent towards celebrity that I think is unnecessary, which is why I think we tend to disagree with the poll.
>> Well, I'll ask you, Stephen. What did you think about that PGA survey that that they sent it? Did you take it?
>> Uh, it's actually sitting on my desktop.
Um, I I got a reminder this morning, so I have not done it yet.
>> I finally I finally did it today and I was like, these questions are positioned in a way and posited in a way in which if I answer anything less than extremely important, which is like the scale is not important at all to extremely important. If you answer anything less than extremely important, it would be insane. Like one of the questions is like how important is freedom of speech.
Extremely important. Extremely in the middle. Put it in the middle. You know, >> I think another question was was like how important is u uh you know sustainability or safety on your set?
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Like people can die. It's okay. Like like it's insurance for that.
>> It was a weird survey for that reason.
But I do like the fact that that as you go deeper into the survey, it gets a little bit more real. And they are focused on things like how do we help producers get um overall deals? How do we help producers get um different types of deals from studios where they're basically like what you said, Nick, working producers where um you know, how do we get health insurance for you guys?
Um how do we make this more like the other guilds um and make it more valuable? So, I think to your point, Nick, like yeah, it being an everyday job, it's like super important and I would say the producers guild is is interested in that, too. So, yeah, those are awesome. There you go.
>> Yep. That's what I got, guys. Those Yeah, those those are the polls. Like I said, I had one that was more technical.
Now, the second one I was like, "Yeah, I'm a little my feels on that one." And looks like you guys were too.
>> Yeah. And yeah, it's a tough one for me, too, because I play music. Uh I'm a musician and and we do film. And I would just I would say just one's a lot easier than the other. And that that's that's the that's the truth. It's just easier to be a music producer, but you have to be a film producer.
>> Yeah. But it but it didn't always used to it didn't always used to be because back like like in the 60s and 70s to be a film to be a music producer you had to almost certainly be a virtuoso at your instrument. And I think today with AI and with um the software the dolls that you have they are doing so much work for you that you just need to have a sense of rhythm and melody as a producer and a sense of like what's working and what's not. Right. It's like um you know, hip-hop artists just rap one line at a time now and then punch back in and do the next line. But but if you were a hip-hop artist in the 80s, you had to perform the entire song. The '9s, 2000, you had to perform the entire song and make a performance of it, which is why we call it performing rights in in in one respect. Um but it's like um it's like now to produce a song, I don't know if that skill set is the same anymore.
Now, to produce great music, I think it's the same, right? You know, you're not going to produce uh, you know, Beethoven and and Dflat by, you know, popping on Ableton, but like in general, it's it's it's easier than than, you know, it it was before. Anyway, we got to we got to pay homage, man.
>> Let's do it, man. Because, you know, our sponsors help us do what we do.
>> Yeah. Keep us keep this thing going.
keep this thing going for for the people. So, how does this show uh stay free? You're about to see. We'll be right back.
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And now back to the show.
And we're back. And I turn it back over to my partner in podcasting, Nicholas Bugs, to usher us into hell. No. Ush usher us into a filmmaker Q&A.
I'm sorry that wrestler guy Jesus made me say that.
>> Wow. Yeah. Wow. That that would have been crazy if I had responded. Oh Jesus.
>> All right. All right. All right.
>> So the filmmaker Q&A of course directly for you, my friend Stephen. Uh, so I've just got a couple of questions um that I actually am asking from a students perspective. That was my my goal with this one is to really think about our our student our students in the audience and and think about what they might want to ask you if they could.
>> So you started in broadcast news and became the youngest news director at your local CBS affiliate, which Chris mentioned earlier, uh, before transitioning into narrative film making. Looking back, what skills from news production unexpectedly prepared you for the chaos and speed of physical production in film and television?
>> Uh, interesting question. One slight slight uh detail I want to update though, not news director, director of news.
>> So, I like it. Okay.
>> The news director is the guy in the in the newsroom saying what what stories reporters will do. I was the director of news. I was the guy in the control room with the red light saying, "Take camera 2, run VTR3, sound up, all that stuff."
>> So, a distinct difference, but um >> but important >> but important. And but to answer that question, um >> I think that news um I'm going to quote ABC News here.
News never stops. It's always on. It's always happening. even though the show is only at 6:00 and 10:00 or whatever the the the times are for that station, uh the the news never stops. So I when I worked at CBS, I was constantly making graphics, doing voiceover carts in the in the recording studio or um preparing um you know packages with the editors, working with the reporters, finding out how that is, marking my scripts, uh making sure that the technical side of it with the engineers is good to go, getting everything ready for that halfhour newscast. But um but it was it was also you had to think that through, call it prep. Um because when the shoot happens, your actual show, when that red light clicks over to that room and you're in control and you're going out to millions of people's living rooms, um that that's some heavy pressure. So, I think that what it taught me uh at a really young age is that is how to handle that pressure and and if something does go wrong, the mic doesn't go up uh correctly or the camera slipped or the VTR didn't start. How do you pivot now?
Not pivot like hold on, let's come over from the camera, give it five minutes, figure out, let's talk to a bunch of department heads right now, this very second, what do I do? Right? So, do I do I downstream and go to commercials really fast? Do I send a note to the reporter to have them, you know, say something like, "Hey, we're having technical." We'll come back to that story in a minute. Right? You have to think now. So, thinking on my feet was something that was really drilled in.
And I was there for a long enough period of time to do it a lot. And um so um I think that's one of the key things I took away. And and now I feel very comfortable being on set and making those decisions. And the only thing I'll say too is not every decision has to be perfect. Like this is what I would also say to anybody, no matter where they are in their career. I've made every mistake you can think of. But the fact that I've made those mistakes has now allowed me to make less mistakes. Not no mistakes, just less because I can think through and understand how that web works. If I say X, well, that's going to I can't say X, so I have to. But I can do that very quickly now. And if somebody comes to me and says, "Stephen, this is happening."
I can be like, "Hold on. Okay, great.
Okay, cool. Okay. Yep. Okay. Here's what we need to do." And even if that decision isn't the right decision right there, it's doing something right. Yeah.
>> Um so I think going back to news broadcasting, uh it's live right now.
It's not We don't record the the 10 o'clock news at 8, >> right? It's it's at it's at 10. And when you're watching it at 10:05, it's 10:05, right? So yeah.
>> Yeah.
That's awesome. That's great, dude. All right, so the next one.
>> Yeah, >> for new filmmakers, budgeting can feel intimidating because it's mathheavy. I don't know why everybody's so afraid of math and it's high stakes.
>> When you first started learning production budgets and scheduling, what helped you become confident enough to make major financial decisions on multi-million dollar productions?
Um, what made me feel confident? I I think it's just I think it goes, you know, it would be different for the guy earlier that only has 30 days to learn this job. But I think it comes from experience.
>> I don't think that you want or I would I never wish on my mortal enemies to become a line producer without massive experience behind you. the fact that I learned my way from uh I want to say earned but really say learned learned my way from being a set PA to an AD and then basically starting over in the office. I I went back and I was a PA in the office and then I went all the way to UPM line producer. Um, if you don't have the background to understand what the elements are that you need, the pieces of gear, the people, the what a place might cost, um, when you're able to read a scene and not just read it as Sally and Joe at a dinner dining room table eating dinner, that's cool. But you're immediately thinking, am I in a real place or a set? Do I how much food is there? Do I have to bring in a food artist to make the food? Um, is there another is there any other family members at this that aren't in the scene but should be in the scene? Is this night day lighting issues? All these kind of things. If you're not thinking about that when you read the script, I mean, I definitely read the script for fun, but when you're analyzing it for the budget, if you're not thinking that way, then you need to get better at doing that. So, I think that's what leads you to have more confidence in putting those numbers down. If you understand here are the elements and the things you need in order to make this scene happen, then you'll have confidence in in putting it down a number. And then the rest of it really kind of boring in the sense of like, oh, it's a union show, so your grip is this much, your electrician is this much, your wardrobe people are this much, so on and so forth down the road. There's kind of like a list. You just look at the list, that's how much they make, put it in the budget. Then the artistry of that is how much the time are they working? Do they need some prep time?
Are you doing a show with prosthetics?
You need to bring in makeup hair early so they're getting overtime. And what does that mean? I need to bring in catering early, an ad earlier. I need to bring in like all what does that mean?
If I have to bring a 2-hour pre-call to do prosthetics or can I talk to my ads and say, "Hey, can we not shoot that scene first up? Can we not shoot that in the later in the day? That way my crew doesn't have to pre-call." Those are the kind of things you're going to want to think about to be financially responsible and to be cognizant of how those costs go into a budget. And the only thing I would say about math is if you had a really good budgeting system that does the math for you, >> I'm not naming names, >> but if you have a good system that's there and and you put the right information in, it it will help you a lot to make sure that you have confidence in your in the output.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen listen >> so there there's something we have to do once we're done with this conversation and this gets published and all the things my friend >> we need to sit down Chris I'm going to let you pick the movie okay >> okay >> we're you're going to pick a movie and we're going to select a scene >> okay >> ah >> and I want Stephen to do everything he just said on that scene >> I want to see the mastermind Matrix, you know, blow >> two Matrix drops in one episode, by the way.
>> Yes. Of a single scene because I don't think that people really understand what you just said. Like I just I'm picturing it. It's like it's literally >> one scene has like a hundred different little things that have to be considered. And again, back to connecting the dots, all hundred of those things are connected in some way, shape, or form.
>> Yeah.
>> And being able to see that again is a superpower. So, >> I'm I'm going to I'm going to call you Mattis, Nick.
>> Yeah. I would love to see it. And just basically what I'm looking at is it's a mind map >> of a scene.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. And I I'll go one just not one step further, but also just on the same thing. Uh my my wife is a producer and but when we get done watching movies, one of her favorite things to ask me is aside from did you like it and what's your favorite stuff and all that stuff is how much do you think that cost?
>> Yep.
>> And it's and I I'm not saying that I get it right all the time, but when I do something like um 85 million and then she'll look it up and she's like it says 83. How do you do that? And I'm like I don't know. Maybe I should do this for a living. So um Maybe this should be my job.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's kind of a bummer when I'm like, "Uh, this one's size 18 15 to 18 million. I'm going to go 18 million." And then she's like, "It cost 60." And I'm like, "How where did they spend the money? How how did there's no way, >> right? No.
>> By the way, that's what we have with with Devilare's Prodatit who which I was drugged in to go watch cuz I didn't want to watch it again cuz I liked the first one. I didn't watch, >> but I I they drove me to the theater to watch it in Dolby and uh and >> Oh, wait. Oh, sorry, Chris. Chris, >> the money is always in that thing.
>> Yeah, I'm sorry. I was confused.
>> Yeah, I I thought they literally like put something in your drink and then you woke up.
>> They drugged me and drugged me. Yeah.
>> It's It's No, it's okay. It's okay. But one thing I will say about it is that the money is everywhere. like you just you can't imagine >> they have enormous shots that are like that was very expensive. I know that shot was >> pricey.
>> Best thing about the movie, especially if you're not like inside the fashion industry and not in love with that kind of stuff, uh is they do such a great job of making New York a character >> and it does genuinely make you feel like taking a trip to New York. And I love New York. So it's like, okay, let's go back to New York. That was that was a lot of fun. and and I haven't seen a movie do that that well since um The Materialist last year did that and I thought >> The Materialist was awesome. That made you want to like >> live in New York and New York was a was a character in that movie as well. So anyway, yeah, you can see that you can see the PNA in the in the damn movie.
It's like that's 200 million. I'm watching a $200 million movie. That's what I'm watching right now. And it looks like it in every freaking scene.
like everything is so perfect >> and they spent so much money and this is true too, Papa Bear.
>> They spent so much money that the story I thought I thought it hurt the story >> because they can't afford to take any chances.
>> They took no story chances because you cannot take a chance when that much money is on the line.
>> You just it's gota >> it's got to be an interest temple, Nick.
>> Interesting.
>> Just just just ride the wave in the middle. All right. So then the next the next question.
>> All right. So, one thing that I've come to learn from this conversation is that line producers seem to sit in the middle of creativity, business safety, and problem solving all at once. So, how do you maintain relationships with directors and creatives when you sometimes have to say no to ideas because of budget or scheduling realities?
>> That's a tough one.
>> Oh, that's a that's it's a good question. And I think it I mean I'm going to echo back to what I said before, which is communication. If if you can have a good relationship with the director and the producers and really also key department heads uh through prep and through the shoot, I I think that makes saying no, I I won't say easier, but less combative. Um there's a lot of times where a crew or cast or a director um will want to do something and it's just either logistically impossible, financially impossible, or just not a great idea. Um and and you you have to be able to navigate that um that direction. Um and on the creative side, listen, I I I feel I'm creative person.
I mean, I it's not just creative financing, like, you know, doing a budget, being creative with the monies.
It's it's also understanding the story.
And there's been times that I've been on shows where the director is like, "We're just going to do this." And I'm like, "But wouldn't you want to do that?"
Like, "We could do that." And then he's like, "Oh, we can do that." Yeah, that'd be cool, right? So, like, then we do that, you know? So, it's um you want you definitely want to understand the story.
You don't want to just be the guy doing a budget and putting one plus one equals two and that's it. Um, and nor do you really want to be the guy that is the no person. I mean, I joke with the fact that like when I start a show, I start being the most hated person and I have to work my way up. Um, I as opposed to a cast member or another beloved person on the set would start being awesome and they have to prove that they're not that that awesome, right? So, um I I feel like it's always an uphill battle and having to say no to people hinders that rise in likability, but I think that if you do it in a way where you understand that that department needs something and you understand why they need it, but you still have to say no for logistics or monetary. If you do it in such a way that says, "Listen, I I I get it. I totally understand it." maybe even help them explain it again so they know that you understand it and then you have to say no. Um that's the that's the probably the best way to handle that.
And if you can't do that, I hire people to just go there and tell people no so I don't have to do it. No, just joking.
>> Nice. I like it. That's perfect. Yeah.
Hey Chris, that's my new job, bro. I'm going to get up in on that. You know, I get myself a nice pair of sunglasses, you know, always wearing black.
>> Yeah.
>> Exactly.
Aviators.
>> Hey Chris, I like for nothing but no.
Okay.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> So I I just think you have to balance that for for it. So to answer it more succinctly, I think you just have to you have to understand what >> what that is the person is trying to do and understand what that means financially and how that also affects other departments too that could that could affect other people and and and things on the show. So you have to understand all that. So again, in in my position, I have the privilege of seeing all those dots and being able to see it where other people are really focused on their dots and I can see how all those have to work together. So sometimes it just isn't going to work, >> right? So >> saying no is an art and it's hard to do and that's why Nick asked the question.
That's why it's such a great question because no is so much harder than yes.
Yeah, >> Tim Ferrris is writing a book on how to say no, and I think it's going to be a bestseller because people don't know how to say no.
>> I I took a cookie yesterday. I didn't want I'm on a diet. I was all for the cookie. I couldn't deny it. I I took the cookie. Why couldn't I smash on his face?
>> Why couldn't I say no, man? I I ate it.
>> Feel guilty about it today.
>> Just say no.
>> That's great. That's That's great cuz you know I'm like I I I do it all the time. Like no nine neb no give you all of them you're talking about.
>> All right. All right. So next next question. So you help develop your own budgeting software after decades in production. Do you think modern production software and AI tools will fundamentally change the role of the line producer or will human judgment and experience always remain the most important factor?
>> I I want to answer that it will always remain the most important factor. I want to answer that way. Unfortunately, I'm going to tell you that there's going to be people who believe so hard so wholeheartedly that they ask Gemini a question and Gemini says blue and they're like it's blue >> and they can't see around the the artistry of it, you know. Um, you know, we can talk about hallucinogenic AI where it just sort of comes up with stuff or you ask something in a certain way and it will answer you the way that you want to hear it. Uh, or you'll put in some idea and it'll be like, "Wow, that's fantastic. Great idea." And you're like, "Is it really great?" I was just, you know, so I I fear that. But it also it also comes I was just having a discussion actually the other day with someone about this and it comes back to that issue that I have with and I'm I don't want to cast a dispersion across the net of all people but I'm just going to say there's a a definite cadre of producer types that are younger that um if they see a cut of a film that isn't doesn't have the sound really nice, doesn't have the coloring really nice, doesn't have the visual effect in there, um they they go like, "Well, what is this? I don't even understand like this is junk.
>> And I come from a world where and the true story um I I won't name drop it, but I'll just say I was in a screening room with a very big director.
>> And uh my job was to be there as a as a PA.
This is way back in the day, a PA. And I was my job was to be in there, make sure that he has whatever he needs, a drink, food, whatever. And after a couple of weeks of watching dailies with this person, I um uh I he would like bring me ask me questions about like what do I think about things? I'm like I'm I'm just a PA. I don't know anything. And so it so we got started chatting and there was one moment where I was asking about something and I said this looks a little bit like weird. And he goes, "It's a one light. It's just the one. We'll color it later. We'll make it look I'm just what what I'm looking for now is composition.
Did I get the feel from the actor and does the framing look right? That's all I That's all I want to know right now.
And that has stuck with me for my entire career when I think about editorial. And oh, we have to have the DIT that has to pre-color and then send editorial and then we have to have this other editor sound guy come in to put sound effects on our thing because and I'm like no, the job of editorial is to assembly. The art of post is taking that assembly and finishing it, right? That and that that takes editorial staff to do that.
There's there's nothing taking away from edit. There's an art of editing, of course, but editing is putting it together to make a cohesive story and make the feel and the emotes all that you need. Um, so I I bring that up to say with AI, I think this is this new wave of Yeah, but it's easy. I can just type a prompt into a computer and get an alien destroying New York, right? like, "Oh, look how easy it is." But then you go down this world of like directors are like, "I think it we can just save a lot of money because of AI." And now you're just replacing a cost with another cost.
I'm going to bring up digital film to digital. Right? When that whole thing happened, I remember doing budgets and people are like, "Yeah, well, we'll just go digital. We'll save a lot of money."
And then I would get done with the budget and I'm like, "What money did we save?"
>> Right? It's just a different cost. It is a feeling of a difference, but it's just a different cost. Now, is there an actual savings? yes or no that you can go both ways depending on the paradigm of what you're doing right but that said AI today going back to the question is I I feel like AI is hopefully going to do a curve and there's going to get to a point where people are like no they're going to they're going to have someone paid to come in and say no because it's going to it's going to hopefully come back to a visceral feel again actually filming actually doing a thing it's you know I don't want to get to a place in 10 years where it's like, "Did you see that new movie? They actually went to Italy, right?" Like, >> that should always be a thing. That should always be a thing. You know, I get it for safety. I get it for, you know, some like we're not going to haul the whole crew over to Italy for one scene. We're going to do a backdrop or we're going to shoot that in Budapest because we're already there shooting 80 other days, right? I get I get that. But I would hate to have all movies just sit in a gray box and we're just putting everything in the background. That's >> Yeah. And you're you're absolutely spot on. You're spot on to acknowledge sycopantic AI >> because what it does is it just >> it it makes people think that every idea that they have is a great idea >> and the fact that it's backed in intelligence, >> right, >> makes them believe it even more, right?
They're like, well, it's not wrong.
>> It is leveraging its intelligence. It's not just saying that I'm great. it is using its intelligence to then say that it's like no no no no >> it's actually both happening at the same time they're programmed to be sophantic >> while also being intelligent so >> right >> that's the challenge so yeah everyone thinks that their ish don't stink and it's like you know it does >> it does >> so I appreciate you yeah that's right so I appreciate you pointing that out all right last question >> okay >> so if you could give one piece of advice to a secondyear film student trying to decide whether production management is the right career path. What experience, challenge, or test would you recommend they put themselves through to find out if they truly enjoy the work?
>> H that's um what test or challenge would I put them through? I mean, uh, I would I mean, I I kind of feel like it I mean, this off the top of my head, but it kind of feels like going back to what you were saying on that scene, watch your favorite take your favorite movie so you don't get bored.
Take your favorite movie and try to break it down, reverse engineer it to see how they did whatever they did. Um, and then put money on everything. Put a put a put a price tag on everything you see in the screen, but then also back your mind up 30 feet. What's behind the camera? Now back up another 30 feet.
What's behind behind the camera? Right.
So if you and and keep backing up until you are done seeing stuff, right? Um so and if you can then uh if you don't get bored and you can get something that feels right. Um I think that that's probably the the key thing. Um, I guess also I sort of what's the uh what's the the term for when you when you're doing you have to when you get like like when people stop smoking and they would say okay to stop smoking you put yourself in a room with a lot of smokers and it's uh aversion aversion therapy, right? So, if you can find some club that's just really mean and you just get people to yell at you a lot and if you like that or you can handle it, >> this job is for you.
>> Fight club. Just go get your butt kicked.
>> Fight club.
>> Yes.
>> He's like, "Wait, Chris, Stephen just created the new thing. It's line producer fight club."
>> Line producer fight club.
>> We'll get together every Thursday night at 8 and we'll just berate each other.
>> That was the worst idea. That was the worst.
>> You suck.
It's like that thing where these people go in and they like break glass and like hammer things to get all their inner rage out, but in reverse >> it's like no no no, >> we're going to yell at you >> and see if you know like like that's another type of like >> Papa Bear, you're probably the most equipped on this on this show to speak about whether that is a real thing and can help, but like that might help somebody actually.
>> Yeah. I mean, obviously the second part is more of a joke, but the but I I think just really really thinking through >> what it what it takes to make a film and if you enjoy the puzzle, I mean, this is one of the things that you mentioned uh Jim Cameron before and when when he he gave me the opportunity to be a UPM on his show, >> uh one of the things he did was he asked me why, right? He asked me why do you want to do this? And and one of the the question the answer still holds true.
It's I enjoy the puzzle taking the script and be at any director, a gym level or or any level under it. Um it's the puzzle getting the getting this the thing on screen for the way that they want it and figuring out what the what those puzzle pieces are, right? I enjoy that because every puzzle piece isn't just that one piece. It's the what are the pieces of the pieces and what are the pieces of those pieces and how do those interact with other pieces, right?
So, um, it's I I just enjoy that. I I love reading a script and saying, "Wait, we're on an oil, Derek. Oh, wait. In oh, in the winter, and there's a helicopter coming in.
Okay. All right. How we how do we do this?" Right? You start making some calls and figure out how do I get this to work, right? So, um, and that's that's the fun of it. I that's enjoyable. If you enjoy breaking down a script, if you enjoy thinking about how things are made, um, that's that's probably going to do you well in this in this job.
>> Chris, this is why nobody plays Sudoku with this guy. Nobody wants to do crosswords with this guy.
>> Nobody wants to buy him a puzzle cuz he's like, man, it'll be done in two seconds cuz, you know, he sees >> things that other people can't see. So that'sess I was going to say I I've in my production offices in the past I have had a chess board open and I I love playing chess. So when when I have a board in the in the office I'll people come like oh you play chess I'm like yeah let's play you know and they're like >> no >> they want to do that >> freaking I want to come into your office and and play you in chess. I think I'm going to >> that would be a great time. I would love to do that.
>> I love I love the game anytime.
>> There is.
>> Yeah, it'll be it'll be brief. So, anyway, >> he'll do one of those for movers on me, Nick, where it's like, >> yeah, exactly. You're like, "Wait, what?
You did the what? The queen's what?"
Anyway, that happened to me one time, Nick.
>> And and I said, "Oh, come on. This is [ __ ] Let's go again." Right? Cuz I didn't I thought we were going to play a legit game and and I just wasn't paying attention. And it was like early in the game and he hit me with that thing where the queen is is trapping the king inside like in the four moves.
>> I says, "This is [ __ ] Let's play again." He goes, "No."
>> Yeah.
>> He never played me again. And he and he he did the whole uh like uh I got this over your head thing >> for like the next 10 years.
>> Yeah.
>> That was incredible [ __ ] >> No. Are you kidding me?
>> Every time he played you, he won. And he's only played you once.
>> He played me once. Exactly.
>> Yeah. He had the upper hand as the uh was that the uh brigade? What's it called? What's the comedy troop? Dick >> uh citizens brigade.
>> Citizens citizens.
>> Upright. Upright citizen brigade.
>> Upright citiz. Yeah. Where they had the ass pennies, right? Weren't they the ones that did the ass pennies?
>> Yeah.
>> Where it's like >> that's Chris's thing. He's always talking about the ass pennies. I'm like, bro, >> somebody spending pennies.
>> That was in 19.
You have the upper hand.
>> True. That was a chess, right? There's no >> No, he ass pennied me with chess and I didn't like it.
>> This is why they got rid of the penny.
Okay.
>> That's hilarious.
>> No more of that. No more of that. But Stephen, thank you so much for your time in the filmmaker Q&A. That was amazing.
Thank you.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Yes, sir. That was one of the hardest questions film that last one, Nick, in filmmaker Q&A history. And I thought Stephen knocked it out of the park. So, Papa Bear, >> thanks.
>> Is the challenge accepted because now you got to bring it on things we should know. But before you give us the question, I noticed for some reason you are sitting in front of a field of corn.
Do I have that right?
>> Yeah. You know, some people are out in left field, but no, I'm out in a field of corn.
>> Um, >> field of dreams. was this is a very spec >> Yeah, that's right. This is a very specific field of corn.
>> Um, and I'll it'll it'll be mentioned um in my prelude to this trivia question.
Uh, but >> Stephen, take a look and see if it looks familiar to you.
>> For those just listening, this is the part where Papa Bear drops off screen.
>> I love it.
>> It always looks so funny. Yeah, >> he's pretty good.
>> I feel it's where I lived on on um Brismaza County, but yeah, >> could be. But no, it's actually >> No, it's actually a location on the first film you were ever working on, Bixs.
>> Ah, wow. We're digging back in time.
Yeah, >> we are digging back in time. Um, so, uh, let me just say, uh, fir well, first I'd like to say I I love your analogy of putting a puzzle together.
And when you were talking about backing up 30 ft and then backing up 30 ft and backing up 30 ft, you know, that's kind of how we put a puzzle together. We we get all the border pieces and we get the frame made >> and then we start taking all the things that kind of share the same color or shape >> and voila, you put your puzzle together.
So, I love that analogy.
So, uh, just a year out of high school, you earned your first film credit >> as set assistant intern on this 1991 biography called Bixs.
>> Yeah.
>> The film was shot primarily in the Quad City area around Davenport, Iowa, neighboring Illinois and Wisconsin. And so over the next 35 years, you have risen from that starting rung to the top of the film industry's production ladder as a premier line producer.
>> Your experience, >> he's risen much like Jesus the world.
>> Yeah.
>> Your experience allows you to proudly tout having executed complex logistical plans across more than 30 different countries over those years. So quite an achievement.
And so that made me wonder what film is known for being shot in the most number of countries and continents with nearly 100 separate shooting locations.
>> Wow. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. That's crazy.
>> What? One film.
>> Chris, you got one.
This is one film shot in it in 100 different locations across the globe.
>> Nearly nearly 100 >> nearly 100 across five continents.
>> Across five continents, >> 25 countries.
>> Feature film.
>> Yes.
>> Something something tells me this is a trick, Nick. it's a trick >> and or a puzzle >> and that this is a not a narrative feature. This is a documentary feature that follows a people's or a subject across multiple locations to get everyone's perspective on one central theme. Am I close?
>> You are.
>> Holy moly, Nicholas. St. Okay guys, you guys have to fill in the rest. That's That's all I got. That was almost a walk-off. I'm I'm I'm leaving the show after that. After saying that, Stephen, >> get out of here.
>> Nick, you guys have to You guys have to fill in the gaps here. What do we got?
What I I I'm terrible about like documentary features historically by name. Like I I have no idea.
>> I'm struggling. I I was it's funny as I was thinking of it all the movies that I know of that have shot in many many places, but there was one that actually popped in my head and you uh you described it well I I'm going to get the name wrong, but I want to say it's something like Bakara Bakarat >> Bakara something writing this down.
>> It's really good, but it's it's also no talking. It's all visual.
Um, >> yeah. And it's got some awesome photography in it. I forget the name of it, though.
>> Does that PB? Does that mean Stephen's right?
>> Not exactly. He's close, though.
>> You got anything?
>> Yeah. My guess is Planet Earth.
>> All right.
>> And what a movie it's been. What a movie.
>> Hey, think about it. think they I mean >> so anyway but >> you ready >> we're ready PB give us the answer man we not going to get this >> all right it's the 2011 American non-narrative documentary film directed by Ron Frick and produced by Mark Maggson named Samara >> Samara was completed over a period of five years in 25 countries around the world and Um, they had worked on Baraka.
>> I had that right. Okay. It was okay.
Yeah.
>> Yeah, you're right about that.
>> Yeah, >> Baraka. I think you said Barakara, but it's Baraka.
>> Baraka. Okay.
>> Baraka. Or maybe you did say Baraka.
>> Samsara was >> Yeah, Samsara was shot in 70 mm format and output to digital format. Uh, the film premiered in the 2011 Toronto International Film Festival >> and received a limited release in August of 2012.
>> And what is it about?
>> Can you spell it, PB? Can you spell the movie, please?
>> Samsara. S A M.
>> Yeah. S A M. S A R A.
>> It's a Sanskrit word.
>> I am meaning of how I originally spelled that.
If you guys could see the pad that I'm writing on, I am ashamed of myself.
>> Well, just put it up to the camera.
Uhuh.
>> I will never do it. Thank you.
>> It means wandering as well as world wherein the term conotes cyclic change or less formally running around in circles.
So it's a concept in Indian religion of the cycle of life of being born dying afterlife karma. So >> yeah maybe closely related to the concept of entropy in in in India as well.
>> Yeah the the only continent it did not uh film in was um well there were two left >> North America and Antarctica.
>> Oh wow.
>> Yeah. Wow. Then Australia Australia. Okay, that's that's interesting.
>> Um especially the North America part.
That's that's great. That guess what?
That that is a thing we should know, >> right? Like >> Well, >> should we Well, here's the thing. When you said 2011, that's where I was floored.
>> Should we?
>> Because >> Yeah. It just feels like I think there was a lot there seemed like there was um you know this early film making there was so much money being made relative to what people's incomes were at the time and so much more freedom for the director and producer to go do something really big right like you could go do it and um to for this to have happened in 2011 it also feels like something we should have been you you know, a little bit more aware of, frankly. So, yeah, it's definitely a thing we should know like like Chris next cocktail party >> we can drop this question.
>> No, for me for me the thing that's amazing is that you could have that many countries in a film >> that only took five years to make.
>> That's the part that blows my mind.
>> There you go again. If he if he had said 10 or 20 but maybe 10 >> but five years >> that many countries >> and you're all over the world >> and you made the film but you made the film.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean you know how much footage there had to have been how much editing work had to >> move all the actually went to all those places.
>> What's what's the budget PB on this? Do you have the budget on this? I mean, >> the call to take a flight or a train to every location.
>> Yeah.
>> On the film.
>> Here's how it got >> It was funded.
>> It was >> by the guy that produced it.
>> Hold on. PB was trying to say. What are you saying, Stephen?
>> No, I was saying it was crowdfunded.
>> Crowdfunded >> in every country. The guy that made the >> Here we the guy that made the film paid for it himself. But, you know, there's a there's a runner up to it. I don't know if you've heard of the film The Fall.
>> The Fall is a 2006 film. It was shot in 24 countries >> and four continents.
>> Wow. Wow.
>> And that's 2006, The Fall. Who's in The Fall? Do you know who the >> No one notable that, you know? Um, >> no.
>> The name of the movie was ominous. It was uh it's a foreshadowing of everybody's career, I guess. I don't know. But shout out to the people who made uh Samsara and the fall, by the way.
>> Yeah, Samsara. Did I say that wrong?
Samsara.
>> Yeah, Samara. That's right. No, take that.
>> Shout out to them.
>> Cheers. Cheers. Cheers to those.
>> There was a North American There was a North American shoot on that. It's the fall that did not have North America in it.
Got it.
>> That That's what kept them from making >> That's right.
>> Five continents. So, >> Got it. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, now just as a correction for those watching and listening, Samsara did shoot in North America in part, right?
>> North America, South America, Asia, Europe, >> Africa.
>> Thank you for the correction. You see what he did right there, Nick?
>> He did the impossible that I talked about a few weeks ago. He admitted he owned up.
>> He owned up. He admitted. See, we thought, Stephen, that that's over with, right? In this culture, the manosphere can't say when they're wrong.
Commander-in-chief can't say when he's wrong.
>> No one can say when they're wrong anymore. It's not cool. Channel say they're wrong.
>> Retractions anymore.
>> Bear is right here showing us what journalist integrity is about.
>> He He's doing it. I'm trying, Chris. I'm trying my best. I just have to find a time when I'm wrong. And as soon as that happens, >> well, now what happened? You you see the color of my beard.
>> Yeah, >> I was relying on memory and not my notes. So, >> we appreciate it. And that is Papa Bear.
Definitely.
>> I had to line produce myself.
>> Yes, that is definitely a thing we should know. Thank you for the Easter egg background and for that incredible trivia right there. Now we're all a little bit smarter thanks to UPB. And from there, we will roll into clear the set and hit with these bullet round questions. Stephen, are you ready?
>> I'm ready.
>> Okay, here we go. Question number one.
What are your top three films?
Uh, in no order, uh, Star Wars, Citizen Kane, Cloud Atlas.
>> Love it. Name the film you're embarrassed to admit you haven't seen.
>> Psycho.
>> Oh, wow. Okay, that's a great >> Nick, is that one of your favorites?
Not one of my favorites, but dang, that's a big one. That's a big one.
>> That's why we ask a question. We love it. Name the film everyone loves but you hate. You know that moment when you're all in the coffee shop and everyone's gushing over a film and you're like, "Oh my god."
>> H God, there are so many. Um, no.
Um, I don't know. I would feel like it would have to be Sleepless in Seattle.
No. Um the uh God that's a that's a that's a tough one. Um I I guess um I don't know.
>> It's easy for me.
>> Witherspoon was in.
>> Which one's yours? PB.
>> Charlie's Angel.
>> Duce Bigalow European Jigalow. Goose Jigalo European Jigalow is definitely has the cult following and there are people who just like yeah like I'm like what what I don't get it. Why why do you love this movie? But it does have a cult following. Shout out to Rob Schneider.
Uh and uh you know like he he's a he's got a he's got a niche. He's got a thing he does you know.
>> So I don't know. Did that help you Stephen? Him throwing out Deuce Bigalow.
No, >> I'm sure there I'm sure there are and I will think of them later, but no, I I off top my head. It's, you know, something that everyone else loves. It's uh it's it's tough. I uh I know I know the ones I like and then there's everything else. So, it's it muddles.
Sorry.
>> You pushed that. You pushed that out of your mind.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh favorite cheat day meal.
>> Oh. Um pizza.
>> What kind of pizza? What kind of pizza, Stephen, are we eating? Like, you're on death row.
>> Tomorrow's your last day. Like, what what do you ask them to order?
>> Uh, well, I would definitely get extra cheese. I mean, >> why not? Um, >> I'm I'm not paying for it at that moment, so it's I don't care about it.
>> Um, I would probably go with something very spicy. So, a lot of habanero. And then, um, uh, and then just to make people mad, pineapple. And then, um, yeah. Yeah. And then some onion, regular peppers. So, >> where do we go in LA to get a pizza that's like exquisite?
Like cheat day exquisite?
>> I know there's I would go to any of the uh like mod pizza kind of places though that that sort of make it definitely woodfire. You have to go woodfire.
>> Um >> but um one of the ones that has the fresh dough makes it in front of you.
So, I I I'll admit I cheat. I I have a pizza oven in my house. So, I would fire pizza my on my own. So, that's one of those I I love it, but I only have it every so often because it is heavy carb.
So, >> it's true.
>> True.
>> Chris, I got to jump in on the the pineapple thing. So, you said it pisses people off.
>> Listen. Listen, I got to jump in on that one because it pisses a particular person off in my house. It pisses off my wife because my wife is from Hawaii. So, every pineapple pizza is marketed as a Hawaiian pizza. She's like, "That's some bull." Like, just cuz you put pineapple on it does not make it Hawaiian. That is some BS. So, yeah. So, thanks for putting the pineapple, but thanks for not calling it Hawaiian.
>> No.
>> There you go. I thought the Hawaiian pizza had ham, too. It had to have hand pineapple.
>> It's like Canadian bacon or some crap.
>> You got Canadian bacon and pineapple and you call it a Hawaiian pizza. Come on, people.
>> Right.
>> The math ain't math, >> right?
>> I had a physician I had a cardiologist tell me one time, people wouldn't eat pizza if they knew what one slice of pepperoni pizza does to your heart.
>> You know what it does to your heart? It makes your heart smile. Cuz pepperoni pizza is delicious.
>> It's delicious. Like don't tell me anything about the sodium. Don't tell me anything about it.
>> Mean where No, you drink some water that you'd be fine. I wanna I want to keep enjoying this stuff, right?
>> Um Rahm Emanuel's brother, I'm forgetting his first name, has a book out called Eat the Ice Cream or something like that. And it talks about how >> as a longevity hack, it's better for you to do things like that than to be stressed out about not doing things like that.
>> Is it called Eat the Ice Cream or is it called Eat the Eat the Ice Cream anime?
I'm not Which one is it? Is it I was reborn as ice cream.
>> Yeah, it's but but no, Nick, but he makes a good point and I know I know you're very fit, but you just makes a good point that's like instead of I think you live this way, too. Honestly, it's like if you want the ice cream, have it. Just don't have it every day.
>> Yeah.
>> No. If you're going to eat the ice cream, don't eat the low-fat ice cream.
That's why I tell seriously I tell people all the time, it's like, look, yeah, you're not eating it all the time.
So, if you're gonna eat it, eat it right.
>> Eat it. Yeah.
>> Don't get the lowfat, low carb, low whatever air ice cream. Just eat the ice cream.
>> Get the grater ice cream with the big chunks of chocolate in it and the 5,000 calories per spoon.
>> Be happy.
>> How you eat ice cream >> in the moment. Be happy in the moment.
>> Be happy. And get the kind of pizza Steven's talking about. If you're going to cheat, you're going to have it.
>> Listen, bro. I'mma tell you right now.
tell you right now, if I am going to take advice about pizza from an individual, I'm taking advice from a dude named >> Marinacio. You know what I'm saying?
Come on. Yes.
>> 100 100%.
>> Exactly.
>> That's right. That's what I'm talking about. All right. Thank you very much.
>> All right. Last one. Cloud Atlas or Citizen Kane? You can watch one for the rest of your life.
>> The film The film artist in me says Citizen Kane, >> but I would go Cloud Atlas. There's it's it's that's a that's that's a real hard question and I I hate you for asking that, but the um I Cloud Atlas is there are people there are two type of people in this world. people like don't understand Cloud Atlas and people who love Cloud Atlas.
>> I saw Cloud Atlas for the first time at the DGA and the Wakowski spoke afterwards.
>> I don't really remember the first 10 minutes of them talking because I was so like in a what did I just watch? I have to watch this again. And yeah, >> I have seen it >> an obnoxious amount of times since then.
And um I love that movie so much. It's so good. It is so good. And yeah, so >> it's a misunderstood movie that's underrated in my opinion. And it's freaking great. It's a great movie.
>> There's so much so many nuances.
Everybody was on point. Set dressing, props, wardrobe, the set design, the everything. Camera movement, all of that. And everything echoes. There's thought put into how the angles are for certain things for editorial, how it puts together. It is it is a u it is there's there's some definite artistry in it, and I I love it so much. I I've been to a lot of the locations where it was shot and um I Yeah, it's it's one of my favorite films ever. Yeah. So, >> the only film better than that, Chris >> Mhm.
>> is Coming to America.
>> Yeah.
>> You have a point. I didn't think about that one. Yeah.
>> See, I mean, I just putting that one on your plate, man.
>> America is great. And guess what, Stephen? You have cleared the set. And with that, we will end this episode the way we end every episode, which is to ask our guest, what does it mean to make it?
>> H um it's interesting. Uh, I've been asked this before and I would say that if if if I was asked 20 years ago, it was to have my name on the biggest movie, uh, to to work with the biggest star. And you know, while I I'm very proud of my resume and, you know, who I've worked with and who and who's who where I' what I've done and where I've been, uh, I think the the biggest thing to to make it is when you have the advice and the ability to give advice or the the knowledge to be able to give advice and u and and people are asking you, right?
And so like they're not going to somebody else, they come to you. And and it feels really good to be able to talk about what I do. I love what I do. I love talking about what I do. So when people come and ask me a questions like, "Hey, can you, you know, help with this?" And uh and to be able to sort of give back and and help people not make the mistakes I did. Um even if they just want a framework of like how do I do something? I I would put it in that that sort of framework of the idea of like making it would be um you know being able to pass along your information and have that um help other people and be the person that people are coming to you know and um there was a UPM that I worked with a long long time ago who was like mainly one of my key mentors who >> she was always open. she, you know, as long as the time is right on the show or whatever, come in and ask her a question about how something worked. And that was from when I was her PA to when I was her coordinator. And um it's that kind of feel that I've always tried to carry on.
And um I feel making it is just, you know, being able to have that ability to help other people, you know, and um uh it's it's something that I that I do a lot of things on the side to help with and do, you know, perpetuate that that thought. So yeah, >> said like a true sage and you did it, man. I I I love I love the answer and I think me and Nick and Papa Bear, we do this show week after week after week because we want to bring that spirit to the audience, right?
>> Doesn't matter if you're a student, doesn't matter if you've been doing it for 20 years. We all come to the table as students to learn and listen from one another and hopefully make something that we're proud of, make something that um our families are proud of, our friends are proud of, and that makes a little money so that we can make the next one. And that's that's that's what it's all about. So with that, can you tell everybody where they can find you on the internet, find you on social media, buy Linebudgeter, test it out, all the things?
>> Yeah. Um my the biggest way to get me is um linebudgeter.com that you can find out all about the software there.
There's um there's a whole host of information there all about how it works. You can download a demo version of it. Uh and when I say demo, I mean it's a fully functioning version. You can make a budget in it. Um it's just uh handicapped a little bit to because it's the starter version. Um and but you can do a full budget in it. Have fun, play around with it, see what it can do. Um, and then beyond that, the the big thing how to get me is it goes back to that thing I was just saying actually is um I'm I moderate a a a site at Reddit, Reddit um film TV budgeting and um there's uh at current slate somewhere around 7,000 members from around the world that do this job or are interested in doing this job and um it's all about production planning and budgeting and people are on there constantly asking questions and a lot of great community members answer questions. It's not just me answering questions, but I love to jump in. I learn things too when people are asking a question and I watch it, too. I'm like, "What is the answer to that? That's cool. What how how does that work?" Uh, and then sometimes I just having trouble myself. I'm like, "Hey guys, I need some help with this.
Does anybody know?" And it's really great to have that community. So, that's a really key place to people DM me. So, that's the way to uh, you know, get me through there. Um, otherwise in that I'm not really on too much social media, but those are those are the two key places to find out more about me and and get a hold of me.
>> You heard it from the man himself. Go to linebudger.com and pick it up and support this new piece of software that came from the minds of real line producers that have been boots on the ground all over the world doing this job for 30 years or more. And uh and and it's going to change the game, I'm sure, of it. And then of course the Reddit, I'm a member of it. As soon as I met you, Stephen, I joined the Reddit myself. And the the depth this goes into that, it can be my warning to to anyone out there is when you join this Reddit, it is it can be a little intimidating at first, but give it time. Take your time to peruse through it and look at some of the answers and questions that are posed. You will be a better line producer. You will be a better producer.
You will be a better U up because of it.
Um, at the very least, you'll be better informed in in my opinion. So, I love what you're doing there on the Reddit site. Now, as far as we're concerned, you can find us anywhere on social media atmake it podcast. That's on Instagram, X, Tik Tok, you name it. We're on Facebook by searching for the Make It Podcast and you can find us there pretty easily. Of course, YouTube, search for the Make It Podcast will be the first thing that comes up. If you're watching us right now, do the thing that everybody asks you to do. Subscribe, like, share. But let me tell you, it does make a huge difference. For those on Apple Podcast and Spotify, if you have 30 seconds, leave us five stars there. And a little review, the discoverability difference there is a is enormous. And uh you can always reach out to us at contactbonsai.film or DM us or leave us comments and engage with us as Nick says on any of these platforms.
We are very proud of the fact that we respond to 100% of all comments, DMs that are left for us. So, you have suggestions for the show, send them our way. You want to compliment a guest, send it our way. You got a thing where you want to ask a new poll, we'll take that into consideration, send it our way. So, we're we're definitely here for you 247. We get those comments, we get those DMs, and we respond to them. Okay.
Now, with that being said, I will pass it to you, Nick, to leave us with the credo.
>> Thank you, good sir. And, uh, I also appreciate, which I did not mention earlier, Steven's outfit because it almost seems like he and I had planned >> this whole situation, you know, which, you know, is is is amazing. This is kismmet, if you will.
>> But Stephen, thank you so much for the conversation, for the insight, for the advice, for the lessons. Honestly, I do believe that this is going to be wonderful for our audience of of filmmakers who are wanting to continuously learn uh and perfect their craft. Uh I appreciate you taking the time to actually build line budgeter um build a platform like lineproducing.com that you've had for so so many years.
But to do these things to continuously give back the Reddit, right? You don't have to spend your time doing that, but you do >> and that is very important. and your your view of what it means to make it is perfectly aligned as Chris said with the platform here. So again, thank you for the conversation, but thank you for being you. Thank you for being a person who gives back to this community so that this community can continue to grow. And with that, my friend, I will say to our filmmaking friends, fans, family, and followers out there, be better, be creative, be engaged, >> and thank you for listening. Nick Papa Bear, talk to you soon.
>> Yeah, man. We'll do this again.
>> Stephen, talk to you soon.
>> Absolutely.
>> Appreciate you, man.
>> Peace.
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