The Addicted Doctor-Dr. Kenneth Clark

Added: 2026-05-26

[00:00:00]This is the power of of addiction in my life.

[00:00:04]Within 18 months, I went from college educator, published researcher, medical examiner, quadruple board certified by the American Board of Medical Specialties, licensed in two states, in 18 months, I walked in the front door of the Erie City Mission, broke.

[00:00:34]All right, Ken, where where you from originally? Where did you grow up?

[00:00:36]I grew up in I grew up in a small town called Girard, Pennsylvania. Closest uh larger city is Erie, Pennsylvania.

[00:00:44]Um and if you don't know where Erie is, Pittsburgh's the next 2 hours away. Mhm.

[00:00:50]Tell me about your family growing up.

[00:00:52]Well, I I grew up in a divided family.

[00:00:55]It's a um e- you know, my parents got divorced when I was one or two. So, I grew up knowing two households essentially. I had my father uh living in one household. My father was um a chronic alcoholic.

[00:01:10]I believe he abused drugs, too.

[00:01:13]Um although he kept it kind of private.

[00:01:18]And my mom got remarried uh to another guy and she My mom was you know, staunch Christian, clean living, you know, my mom It was a very radically different household. So, I grew up knowing both of those households, but >> [snorts] >> you know, I think that uh it was a My childhood was okay. To be honest, it was um you know, I think I had a lot of resentment because of the division of the you know, between my mom and my dad and and it was pretty apparent. They didn't hide it. Um but you know, my mom was an agoraphobic who was chronically depressed and and she wasn't very present in anything that I did in my life. And then my dad, of course, was the dad who would disappear for three or four months at a time Um and then just show up at a baseball game drunk and embarrassing and so ironically I think the stabilizing factor in my life would turn out to be my stepfather of all three parents. But it was okay. I you know I with my as I got older the relationship I had with my stepdad became contentious and physical.

[00:02:22]And you know when I look back now I see a lot of that was driven by me. You know a lot of the anger that I had because of >> [gasps] >> the way my mom was having a non-present mom. My mom was non-present.

[00:02:36]Now I know why but I didn't then so growing up with a non-present mom and pretty much an absent father who only showed up drunk created a lot of anger in me and I directed a lot of that anger toward my stepdad so it resulted in some physical fights. As I got older started maybe when I was 13 or 14.

[00:02:57]But I'll say that by the time I was finishing high school I was pretty much living independently. I could go for a month and not even see any of my parents. I was out of the house before anyone got up. I was back home before anyone went to bed. I was living above our garage so I had my own little you know bachelor pad but I really couldn't wait to go. I would couldn't wait to finish high school and just launch life.

[00:03:23]What did you want to do?

[00:03:25]Well you know interesting I wanted to be an actor is the truth of the matter.

[00:03:30]A lot of people don't know this about me even people who know me well.

[00:03:33]I got involved in some theater productions in high school and I just loved it so I wanted to go and be an actor.

[00:03:43]And I was so I was going to go to college for theater or drama or something like that.

[00:03:47]My stepdad [clears throat] didn't think that It a good idea.

[00:03:51]>> [laughter] >> And I had really high test scores on my SATs and my grades were exceptional.

[00:03:56]Um, so it was it was a quick negotiation, but basically, if you want to do some theater, you can do that on the side, but why don't you go major in something that you're it's going to make you some money and you know, something you can actually use. So, um, I went off to college to Purdue University's where I did my undergraduate work in, um, electrical engineering.

[00:04:18]Uh, did very well.

[00:04:20]And I did theater on the side in the experimental theater is what they called it.

[00:04:25]And those are good years. Those are that was a great time in my life. I was very I succeeded in academically and I was having a lot of and I during this time I wasn't drinking, I wasn't partying.

[00:04:36]I wasn't going to fraternity parties. I was doing nothing like that. Um, I was very very focused.

[00:04:41]Um, between theater and my engineering studies, I was determined just to move to the next I drinking was more of a distraction at that time for me, to be honest. I didn't I didn't have any use for it.

[00:04:56]It changed.

[00:04:58]And you eventually got into medicine?

[00:05:01]Yes. So, um, after [clears throat] I finished my undergraduate degree, I got a I went to start a graduate school at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh.

[00:05:13]Uh, one of the preeminent engineering institutions in the world, actually. Um, at the time it was ranked second to MIT.

[00:05:21]And I was very proud of that. My father was very proud of that. Um, I was excited. Um, and I started my graduate studies at CMU.

[00:05:29]Um, and about three or four months into that, my dad uh, died. He died of cancer. He had cancer the previous year.

[00:05:39]>> [snorts] >> Um, but I was very naive.

[00:05:41]>> dad or your My biological dad, yeah. Um, he had a diagnosis a year before, but I think I just didn't understand anything about it. I just assumed dad was going to be okay anyway, even watching him waste away, watching him, you know, lose weight and turn yellow as his liver got involved. I just had this real delusional notion that he's just going to bounce out of this. So, when he finally did die, uh I was just starting my second semester at Carnegie Mellon.

[00:06:08]And that that event, it was the first death I had ever experienced in my life. I'd never had, believe it or not, I was 22 years old and I never had anyone in my life die.

[00:06:19]Uh and it was my father, cuz even though my father was this absent alcoholic who was very he had wildly very poorly controlled bipolar disorder.

[00:06:28]And you knew it. You knew it. He could The only thing they had you know, back in these days that was really effective was lithium and he wouldn't take it and um but I loved him. My dad was um my dad was he understood me, he supported me, he encouraged me.

[00:06:44]Uh albeit drunk, he still did it, you know? Um so, when he died, I got I that was an emotional experience that I'll never forget.

[00:06:53]Changed a lot.

[00:06:54]Changed a lot. Um after dad died, um >> [snorts] >> I went back to school and I don't know I was I was experiencing I never realized how safe my father made me feel.

[00:07:08]Um even though he was never there financially, you know, he couldn't actually do a lot for me. He had a presence in my life that just made me feel safe. And that fear overwhelmed me after his death. Uh I started having tremendous difficulty sleeping. I don't I've never slept a whole lot. But [snorts] now I wasn't sleeping at all.

[00:07:30]Overwhelmed with anxiety and fear and sad. I was crying all the time. And I'm still trying to do my graduate studies.

[00:07:38]Um and I started uh you know, spinning out emotionally. I was experiencing emotions that I just couldn't name.

[00:07:46]It was It was a very very intense time for me.

[00:07:51]And I did a couple of things. I did a couple of things.

[00:07:56]One thing I decided was that maybe engineering and I wanted to go into robotics. I was working a little bit with the robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon and that was where I wanted my career to go.

[00:08:08]So I decided maybe I could do something a little more important, a little more meaningful than that. Maybe I could actually do something as a doctor, as a healthcare professional. So I applied to medical school.

[00:08:19]>> [snorts] >> That was the first thing I did and the second thing I did was I started to drink. I started to drink.

[00:08:25]I'd only drank I think I smoked pot once in high school, didn't like it. And I drank a couple of times in high school.

[00:08:35]And once in college that I can remember.

[00:08:40]If it was more often than that then obviously wasn't memorable but I I never had much of a use for it. I just didn't.

[00:08:47]But I remembered it was a pretty decent sedative. I did remember how it made me feel.

[00:08:54]So at the age of 22 studying engineering at the second best institution in the country, maybe the world, I start drinking a little bit.

[00:09:05]Just a little bit.

[00:09:07]And it worked. I would have one beer before going to bed for 2 hours and I'd wake up once again angry, once again lonely, once again afraid, anxious.

[00:09:20]>> [snorts] >> A lot of uncertainty, confused, but I could get those 2 hours. And that was good. That was good. And that became a cycle.

[00:09:29]So over the next year what happened was one beer before bed Fast forward a year, was being shit-faced seven nights a week. Now, I'm just drinking out of the bottle by myself, alone.

[00:09:47]But it escalated.

[00:09:49]Um, you know, it was therapeutic in the beginning, but now it was it was a need.

[00:09:55]I mean, I could I had a hard time functioning at all. And sleep was out of the question unless I was inebriated.

[00:10:00]Um, and I also got accepted to medical school.

[00:10:05]The University of Pittsburgh. I was already in Pittsburgh, so I applied to that school. It was the only one, you know, in the area, and I got accepted. So, a year later, looking back, I am now I went from being a non-drinker.

[00:10:22]I was a health enthusiast.

[00:10:24]Anybody will tell you, I exercised every day. I watched my diet. I had like a 28-in waist, you know. I was I was clean liver. I was a clean liver.

[00:10:33]Um, >> [snorts] >> and now I was a drunk.

[00:10:37]And, um, I remember I I still remember I'll never forget the first day of medical school.

[00:10:43]When we all showed up and we had this It's called a white coat ceremony when everybody puts their coats on.

[00:10:48]They give you a little white coat. And it's kind of a celebration. You made it, you know. This is the the launch of something new. And, uh, I had to leave the ceremony to go in the bathroom and just vomit.

[00:11:00]It was just awful.

[00:11:01]Um, and it really didn't change for the next 12 years. Over the next 12 years, quite honestly, I made it through medical school, but now, rather than being Yeah, I was always near the top of the class.

[00:11:15]I just was, you know. It's not being boastful, but I always was the guy with the grades.

[00:11:21]Um, and now I wasn't. I was very mediocre as a medical student.

[00:11:28]But surprisingly, I became okay with that.

[00:11:31]I became okay with that. Eventually, very quickly into my first year, I got into I was introduced to cocaine.

[00:11:38]Um back when cocaine was cocaine. I mean, this was like blow your hair back cocaine, you know.

[00:11:44]Um and then it just you know, once you once I started um changing the line in the sand, everything just became an option. So, fast forward 2007, I've already been married twice.

[00:12:01]Uh by world-class codependents who who thought they could change me, really.

[00:12:06]Um who loved me, you know. They were unfortunate enough to love me. Um but what happened was um 2007 now, cuz I started school in in 1990 five is when I started drinking.

[00:12:20]Um >> [clears throat] >> now I am uh wholly addicted to everything. There's nothing I won't use. I always have pockets full of something.

[00:12:30]I'm walking around the hospital. I'm a fifth-year resident um at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and I'm walking around with little DNA storage tubes filled with coke.

[00:12:43]Uh I'm walking around with prescription bottles for antidepressants that aren't antidepressants.

[00:12:48]Um I'm stealing drugs, not from the hospital, but um I'm actually taking drugs from body bags in the morgue.

[00:12:58]Cuz everybody that dies on the floor, all the belongings go into the body bag with them. So, I would get into the hospital first thing in the morning and just raid the morgue and get bottles of morphine sulfate, OxyContin, anything. Didn't matter. I'll take anything.

[00:13:17]And that went on for a couple of years, but in 2007 is when everything came to um a real head. What happened was um my second wife had kicked me out of the house. I had been evicted from the apartment I was living in.

[00:13:31]Uh both of my vehicles were repossessed.

[00:13:34]Um I'm a fully licensed physician working at a hospital in downtown Pittsburgh and I actually don't have a mailing address.

[00:13:48]I don't have a place to stay.

[00:13:50]I don't have a vehicle.

[00:13:51]I don't even have money for the bus and the reason is because 100% of the salary that I made, including the side work I did at the medical examiner's office, 100% of it now was going toward drugs, period. All of it. I had drug dealers delivering to the hospital.

[00:14:09]I would if I could get a ride some in some, you know, crazy way I could get a ride over to East Liberty after, you know, work, I would find myself at 3:00 in the morning sitting on a couch with two drug dealers smoking crack and just like >> [clears throat] >> watching SpongeBob on the TV. I mean, it was it was it was it was insane what was happening, but I always managed to circle back to the hospital. I was always the first person there because essentially I lived there.

[00:14:39]Um and I was always the last person to go. So, I was very I was overcompensating. I knew that it was a problem.

[00:14:46]Um and I'm pretty sure everybody else did, but I was still spending more time there than anybody. I was still performing.

[00:14:55]Not the best, but I was doing it. Did anyone in your life know? No, I had I had totally disconnected from everybody.

[00:15:03]You know, often one of the things that I look back and is very clear to me, we also we often talk about in the world of addiction as addicts, as recovering addicts, this sense of this feeling of loneliness and isolation that's just horrifying.

[00:15:18]But it comes with it. Because what happens for me anyway, what happened was that the demand that need It became a need.

[00:15:26]I mean, if I have $20 and I I'm telling you this is a fact. If I had $20 in my pocket and I haven't eaten a meal in a week, and I have to choose between a couple of rocks and a sub, I will always choose the rocks.

[00:15:42]You know, you know, so but it's hard to live like that in the presence of other people. You know, it's very secretive life.

[00:15:53]Um so, nobody knew surprise. They knew I was [ __ ] up. I mean, I'm not going to you know, everybody knew something was going on. They probably had an idea what was going on, but I kept myself very removed from family, definitely my ex-wife. I hadn't seen my daughter and she was five at the time. I hadn't seen her in probably a year and a half.

[00:16:10]Um always had to lie, you know, why I couldn't come over, why I didn't answer the phone, why I didn't return the page. Um it became literally a 24/7 operate It's a thought that never went away, ever, ever. Even if I use, it's still there.

[00:16:27]Do I have enough for the next time? Do where am I going to get the next one? Is uh you know, Lou going to answer the phone or is Vinnie going to answer the phone or you know, whoever it was.

[00:16:36]It became totally consuming my thinking. It was crazy. So, what happened in 2007 though was I was living in the hospital.

[00:16:46]Um I was starting to [ __ ] things up.

[00:16:50]Like I was making mistakes.

[00:16:52]Uh misdiagnoses.

[00:16:54]Um embar- not answering pages, showing up late.

[00:16:59]Imagine this, I live in the [ __ ] hospital and I'm showing up late, you know?

[00:17:04]Um and people were It was obvious. I was getting called to our my residency program director's office. A lot of things were happening.

[00:17:12]The writing was on the wall, but nobody but I I admit it to anybody, you know, Um but what happened was eventually um um I I was doing autopsies at the medical examiner's office on the weekends um to supplement my drug money.

[00:17:29]Right? I mean, this is where all of my I was I was you know, as a resident, I was making over six figures a year and I was broke and I mean [ __ ] broke.

[00:17:39]I was broke because all of it went up my nose or in my arm or down my throat or in my lungs, all of it.

[00:17:47]>> [snorts] >> Um but what happened was I wound up doing an autopsy.

[00:17:52]It was a Saturday morning.

[00:17:53]Um I had been on like a just a short two or three-day run with a couple of guys that I saw them once a month that we ran the gang, you know, just good guys, but they were addicts just like me and and anyway, we had been on like a two or three-day run. They wanted to keep going and I was on such thin ice. I knew I was pretty much toast the hospital.

[00:18:14]But I still had work I had to do at the ME's office and I went down to the ME's office and um long story short, I I unzipped the first bag that morning and it was my friend DJ.

[00:18:29]This guy, I mean, I was just with him eight hours ago and I knew exactly why he was dead.

[00:18:34]I knew exactly why he was dead.

[00:18:38]And >> [clears throat and cough] >> you know, when that happened, I still remember that day. This is what? 19 years ago?

[00:18:47]Um to say I was stunned is an understatement.

[00:18:52]Uh paralyzed is a better statement, just uh incapable of moving or speaking for about 10 minutes, just staring.

[00:19:02]Uh he was still warm.

[00:19:05]Uh still had drugs on him.

[00:19:09]And uh anyway, I went into the bathroom. I did a couple of lines of coke off the toilet, and I hit the a bottle of Smirnoff, if I remember, and I went out and started his hot autopsy.

[00:19:21]And I don't know, it just I the best I can say it is [ __ ] me up.

[00:19:26]>> [laughter] >> And over the next couple of weeks, I just started having bizarre thoughts. I knew something was wrong. I mean, drugs aside, I knew I was just losing it.

[00:19:39]Having evil thoughts.

[00:19:41]Um a lot of thoughts about death, morbid [ __ ] And I walked into the psychiatric hospital across the street after a couple of weeks, Western Psychiatric Hospital, and I just simply said I need some help.

[00:19:55]And um they sent me to treatment.

[00:20:00]Uh I relapsed, went back to another treatment, relapsed, went back to another treatment. And this last treatment, this is in 2007, it stuck.

[00:20:09]I made a commitment. I said, you know, obviously this is not working for me.

[00:20:12]This is Something's happening here that's bigger than me.

[00:20:15]Um So, I decided to stay in treatment for a length of time is a wonderful treatment center in Ohio called Glen Bay, Glen Bay Treatment Center.

[00:20:26]Um I was there on the campus in one of their They had a three-quarter house then.

[00:20:31]Um I was in the the facility every day.

[00:20:34]I was learning about 12 steps. I'm a firm believer in 12-step recovery now.

[00:20:38]Um fellowship, being all these basic principles of recovery that we we talk about that I was always resistant to.

[00:20:46]And the amazing thing, the amazing thing that happened, amazing to me, was that for the next nine plus years I stayed clean.

[00:20:54]And after 2 years, I went back and finished that last year of residency.

[00:20:58]And then I did a couple of fellowships, and I eventually got certified in four specialties, and my career started to explode.

[00:21:07]It just started to accelerate like I never imagined.

[00:21:11]Um and that happened up until the It continued to accelerate up until the 2016-17 holiday season.

[00:21:22]Uh that's when everything changed again.

[00:21:27]Um I can laugh about it now, but it wasn't funny at the time.

[00:21:33]So, what happened was uh I was I I went to work after I >> [clears throat] >> finished my fellowship training. I was working as a medical examiner in Pittsburgh, and then I got this job in Syracuse, New York, which I was super excited about cuz it came with some faculty positions. I I love to teach and um and I wanted to do research and publish and So, I had two faculty positions tied to this medical examiner's job and [clears throat] um I was super excited.

[00:22:03]And what happened though was when I got to Syracuse, I disconnected from my recovery program.

[00:22:10]I Not spitefully. I just kind of I didn't get a new sponsor. I didn't start I started going to meetings, but I wasn't getting to know anybody and I just life was picking up speed fast.

[00:22:22]Professionally, I was accumulating some money, finally got some financial stability.

[00:22:26]Um had a couple of girlfriends, you know, uh life was just on the move and I just kind of I don't know.

[00:22:38]Disregarded this addiction thing. Almost like I just totally forgot what had happened leading up to 2007.

[00:22:45]Living in the hospital morgue, right?

[00:22:48]Spending over a hundred grand a year on just [ __ ] dope. And um running around out of my mind. I just like forgot about it. I just dismissed it. I just ignored it.

[00:22:58]And then what happened was um as my professional obligations and responsibilities started to grow and especially in the world of forensic medicine, you're dealing with attorneys and judges and things can get and family members that are not happy to see you.

[00:23:16]Um It uh it could be aggravating, you know.

[00:23:21]Um So, you throw in some aggravation, you throw in some sleep deprivation, you throw in deadlines, you throw in got to do this, got to do that, got to do this, got to do that. You throw in getting to the desk at 5:00 a.m. and walking out of the building at 9:00 p.m.

[00:23:36]You throw all that in and over the course of a couple of years I start feeling a certain way. I'm chronically aggravated. I'm I'm I'm pissed off before I even walk in the building cuz I just sense what's happening. I know what's going to happen or I have I have some idea.

[00:23:57]So, I'm chronically aggravated. I'm chronically restless, irritable, discontent. I'm chronically I haven't had a good night's sleep in a year, you know. Um Now, I'm beginning to be resentful of people.

[00:24:11]All the resentments I got rid of years ago when I first got sober, now I'm accumulating new ones.

[00:24:20]>> [snorts] >> And it's weighing on me emotionally and what happens is um I saw a sleep specialist and I was I was actually surprised that uh she gave me a prescription for Xanax. Said, "Take one of these before bed."

[00:24:38]And of course I went home and I took two.

[00:24:44]>> [laughter] >> After 10 years, I took two of them.

[00:24:47]Um and my life changed almost overnight.

[00:24:52]Uh that prescription was gone in 72 hours, maybe.

[00:24:57]Uh and then I was at the liquor store and I was unemployed all three of those positions for for different reasons, but all related to my addiction that had now reemerged with fury.

[00:25:13]Uh I was unemployed in about 6 weeks.

[00:25:18]Unemployed.

[00:25:19]Uh within 4 months I found myself in jail in Richland County, Ohio.

[00:25:27]Uh in 15 months I found myself in Hamot Hospital in Erie, Pennsylvania with um acute alcoholic hepatitis acute liver failure uh internal hemorrhage.

[00:25:44]I looked like a a lemon. I was jaundiced.

[00:25:48]And um and with 18 months within 18 months this is the power of of addiction in my life.

[00:25:57]Within 18 months I went from college educator published researcher medical examiner quadruple board certified by the American Board of Medical Specialties, licensed in two states in 18 months I walked in the front door of the Erie City Mission broke.

[00:26:22]I had no money.

[00:26:25]I had no hope.

[00:26:26]All I wanted was some drug Anything.

[00:26:28]Just Uh and I was there for 9 months. I was there for 9 months.

[00:26:33]Uh they had a program there called the New Life Program run by an amazing man named Daryl Smith. Amazing man.

[00:26:40]Um to help people like me get on their feet. But you know, I could just never I was always very secretive. I would drink and and then as soon as I left that program I just I became one of the people that I used to judge.

[00:26:57]And when I judge so I mean the gavel comes down hard, right? I became the guy who would go to detox, get out, relapse.

[00:27:05]Go to treatment, get out, relapse. Go to jail, get out, relapse. Go back to detox, get out, relapse. Go back to back to back to I went so many the repetition was mind-numbing.

[00:27:17]And every time I left I was determined.

[00:27:21]I am so [ __ ] done drinking. I am so [ __ ] done smoking. I'm so done with all of this [ __ ] And I meant it.

[00:27:31]Sometimes with less than 24 hours, I'm flat on my [ __ ] back again.

[00:27:37]Um and every time I went back, it was always a little bit worse than it was the previous time.

[00:27:42]So, the repetition was crazy. Between the relapse in 2022, um all kinds of [ __ ] happened. I went to 12 or 13 residential programs.

[00:27:53]One in Chicago, Rock Creek, Ohio, Pittsburgh, um Meadville, Pennsylvania, Franklin, Pennsylvania, a bunch of different treatment centers. And it was the same thing. I'd stay for a month, I'd enjoy myself, I'd feel good, and walk out the door not realizing that I'm not [ __ ] good at all.

[00:28:16]Um so there's a 6-year period that was just nothing but drugs, being drunk, embarrassing my family, being shameful in every sense of the word, abandoning my daughter, going financially belly up, sleeping on couches.

[00:28:37]But was there any particular drug that was your thing or is it all of them?

[00:28:40]Well, I will take anything.

[00:28:43]But if I have a choice, crack.

[00:28:48]Crack and a little booze. Like something about that mix, you know? But back in the day, this is long before the street fentanyl came, you know? Um the first time I went to treatment in 2007, I was using hospital fentanyl.

[00:29:03]You know? Or hospital benzos and all kinds of stuff. So I like it all.

[00:29:09]Actually, there's only one drug I will turn down.

[00:29:12]Marijuana. Hate it.

[00:29:14]>> [laughter] >> I get way too paranoid. Never met just doesn't work for me. But other than that, anything you got. Kratom? Give me the whole bag.

[00:29:23]Wellbutrin? Crush them up.

[00:29:26]I'll snort those [ __ ] you know?

[00:29:28]Yeah, it's I got so accustomed over those six years to just escaping whatever it was. Little fear, little anxiety, little anger, some shame, low self-worth, horrible self-image, all these things. There's a quick fix.

[00:29:47]There's a quick fix that I have programmed my brain to remember over the last 25 years. A quick fix.

[00:29:54]Yeah, I could do these things in therapy. Yeah, sure.

[00:29:57]I could do these things. I could work with my sponsor and I could >> [snorts] >> take the time to do it properly and with some level of permanence or just, you know, hustle up 50 bucks.

[00:30:12]Problem solved in 10 minutes, you know?

[00:30:15]Or just get me to the [ __ ] liquor store.

[00:30:17]And that's hard that I could never turn that off. I could never dial that down.

[00:30:22]That's the I believe the powerless piece that they talk about. I can't just dismiss that thought, that urge.

[00:30:30]It's very biological. It's very biological.

[00:30:33]Um but just knowing that biology never was enough for me to do anything about it. In fact, it probably made it more maddening for me.

[00:30:44]I used to teach a little neurobiology of addiction at some treatment centers, [ __ ] off myself, you know, it was more maddening. Like I know exactly what's happening in my brain, but I I can't do anything about it. So, you know, once again, I found myself after a couple of menial jobs. I had lot at one point I had medical licenses in um Pennsylvania, New York, and Mississippi.

[00:31:09]Um Mississippi was an opportunity that came and went in like the shake of a lamb's tail. Um and all those four board certifications that I had, those all went away.

[00:31:22]They all lapsed. They all just expired.

[00:31:24]I just gave up. But, you know, when I when I can't speak for any other addict, but when I am in it, um it's just this progression of I don't give a [ __ ] That happens. It's the best way I can explain it.

[00:31:39]You do in the beginning, but as the need grows, the bar starts to get lower and lower and lower. I become more accepting of consequences. I mean, things today that I would be if you told me I you're going to lose your wife, you're going to lose your your stepdaughters, you're going to disconnect with your daughter, you're going to lose your profession, you're going to lose your financial security.

[00:32:00]If you told me that right now, feeling the way I do right now, if you hit this pipe, you're going to lose that, I would say I would be I would revolt. I would say it's out of the question. Are you [ __ ] kidding me? Get me hooked on a pipe for a couple of months and it's all negotiable.

[00:32:17]I'll negotiate all of it. What do you think the cause of this addiction relapse scenario that you kept repeating was?

[00:32:27]Was it something you inherited from your from your parent?

[00:32:30]>> [sighs and gasps] >> That's a great question.

[00:32:32]>> From your dad or is it some traumatic Well, my dad was certainly uh an addict. My mom isn't even close to being one.

[00:32:40]What I know as a doctor and I've I mean most of the addiction science literature I've read just for because I want to know.

[00:32:49]There's definitely a genetic component, but there's not actually there's no gene for addiction. But what I can tell you is that it's not uncommon to have a guy like me say, "Oh yeah, my the whole paternal side of my family, they were all drunks and and addicts, too." So there is a genetic component. Um you know, I'm not an epidemiologist or a biostatistician, but I think it's kind of hard to tease out how much is environmental and how much is genetic simply because let's say there is a genetic piece in my case that I got from my dad. Well, it how do I how do I separate that from the fact that every time we went to a family reunion on that side of the family, all I saw was fighting and being drunk and you know, every time I never saw my dad for 15 years without being drunk. So there the environmental influence was there for me, for sure, and I think the genetic influence was also there.

[00:33:47]Um It's hard to say which carries more weight, but I don't think about it too much. And this is the God's honest truth because for me right now it doesn't I I knowing that doesn't change anything.

[00:34:05]Uh I'm a stone-cold dope fiend. I'm a I'm a crackhead. I'm a drunk. I'm a you name it. I mean, this is I I just am. How I came to be that doesn't matter because I have a solution today and I just live in that solution. You know what I mean? Um in other words, I if if I knew if someone said, "Oh, they discovered the gene. We actually have a gene for addiction." Oh, really? Do I have it? And I found out that I have it.

[00:34:32]It's not going to change anything that I do today.

[00:34:35]Might be relevant for my daughter, you know, but um but I do wonder that.

[00:34:40]I got something from my dad.

[00:34:42]>> [laughter] >> Right.

[00:34:44]Um Yeah, so what happened was in 2000 um late 2022, I was back in Erie, Pennsylvania. Uh I had had a couple of really menial jobs.

[00:34:59]>> [sighs] >> Um you know, going from college professor, medical doctor to folding boxes, you know. Yeah, working at a The last job I had, I was working at a um a plastics facility that made it was an inject I took garbage cans off of injection molds for 12-hour shifts.

[00:35:20]I mean, literally, you could a research monkey could be trained to do this work.

[00:35:25]It was maddening. And I had to be loaded the whole time. I had to be. I I I got I couldn't do it clean.

[00:35:31]>> [snorts] >> And I just remember I was in such despair. I I couldn't believe I would have these visions of where my life was.

[00:35:39]And how can I how can this have happened, you know?

[00:35:42]Um And eventually, I just relapsed again like for the millionth time.

[00:35:49]And what happened was a guy that I worked with at this plant, um I got to know him a little bit.

[00:35:58]And good man, you know, and he I was a no-call, no-show for a couple of days.

[00:36:03]And he showed up to where I lived, to the apartment. It was this little shit-ass apartment in like a geriatric center.

[00:36:10]It's a whole different story how I got in there, but and I was busted up again, incoherent, and he made some phone calls.

[00:36:22]And he said, "An Uber's coming to get you in the morning um to take you to treatment." And I just assumed I was going back to that same treatment center in Rock Creek, Ohio.

[00:36:33]And when I got into the Uber, um with a bottle of booze and enough crack to get me to, you know, Ohio, which they didn't let me smoke. Um >> [laughter] >> But, when I got in there, we started heading toward Pittsburgh. I I I genuinely had no clue where I was going.

[00:36:51]I barely remember this day.

[00:36:53]>> [snorts] >> And uh So, I got to Pittsburgh. I wandered in barely.

[00:36:59]And I found out that I was going to Malibu, California.

[00:37:04]And that was August 4th, 2022.

[00:37:08]That was another extremely pivotal day in my life.

[00:37:13]I had no clue where I was going. I had never been to Malibu, California. Nor do I want to go to Malibu, California. I'm an East guy, right? I like snow. I like, uh, seasonal change. I like, you know, uh flannel shirts and [ __ ] like that. I just I had this was a brand new experience for me.

[00:37:32]And I was going into it feeling utterly hopeless.

[00:37:38]Not hopeless in a, like, you're such a piece of [ __ ] type of hopeless like I've done this so many times. I've lost every single meaningful thing in my life. I've lost my daughter.

[00:37:54]You my wives, my wealth, my my career.

[00:37:56]Everything is gone.

[00:37:59]And all I I just can't I can't pick up any speed here.

[00:38:04]And I felt like it's hopeless like in the sense that this is never going to work for me.

[00:38:11]There are no options.

[00:38:14]And really believing that.

[00:38:16]Like I I almost had tremendous clarity when I when I woke up the first morning in that detox, like this is it, you know, this is never going to end. I can't out-think this. I can't There's no algorithm for this.

[00:38:30]Like there's no equation, there's no code, >> [clears throat] >> no prescription.

[00:38:37]Never felt more confused in my whole life.

[00:38:40]And I was hopeless, and I really genuinely at that point genuinely believed maybe suicide is the only way I'm going to escape this cuz I can't I can't live with or without a bottle. I can't live with or without a pipe. I can't live with or without the What's the option?

[00:39:02]Holy [ __ ] I can't, you know.

[00:39:07]So, a good friend Michael Lynch.

[00:39:14]It was about 3 days, maybe 4 days into that treatment, and I'd already started planning my suicide. I want a good thing I mean as a medical examiner, I know all the good ways to kill yourself.

[00:39:25]Clean ways, too, you know. Um so, I started planning my suicide.

[00:39:30]Once the um comfort meds like Ativan or Suboxone when it Once that is gone, uh I'll just kill myself.

[00:39:40]But a guy came in to share a message.

[00:39:43]His name is Michael Lynch.

[00:39:45]Never forget it.

[00:39:46]And for about 20 minutes he talked, he shared his story of powerlessness. He shared his story of shame and regret and and failure for nothing other than the substance, you know. Um in in many in many regards, his story was far worse than mine when it comes to childhood issues and traumas. And anyway, I He came It was about 3 or 4 days in.

[00:40:13]And um I don't know, I just heard it.

[00:40:18]He seemed so genuine.

[00:40:21]He's very passionate.

[00:40:23]And I judged this [ __ ] at head to toe. He's like a covered in tattoo.

[00:40:28]You know, culture's different back east.

[00:40:30]But I judged everything about him. But when he spoke, I'm telling you there was a conviction there. There was a there was a a real sincerity that I couldn't ignore.

[00:40:40]It just stuck with me.

[00:40:43]And uh gave me some pause. I was okay. I was okay, I'm telling you, with the idea of killing myself. I had no problem with it. I was 50 at the time.

[00:40:53]And I'm like, I got 50 years. I did some [ __ ] man.

[00:40:57]I accomplished some [ __ ] Um but it's over now.

[00:41:01]But he gave me enough pause that I just I got curious.

[00:41:05]Maybe there is hope.

[00:41:08]Maybe not necessarily hope to get that life back, but hope to rebuild a new life.

[00:41:14]That I just can't see.

[00:41:18]So I stuck around, wound up relapsing again very briefly, and then got right back into the game of recovery.

[00:41:26]And life is wildly different now.

[00:41:31]I would say I'm more successful now than I ever believed I was in the past.

[00:41:36]Doing all the you know, the academic pursuits and and publishing some papers and teaching and making money and wearing nice [ __ ] suits or whatever.

[00:41:44]Um my life has changed radically today. I finally, after 6 years of not caring any medical license in any state, uh last September, California Medical Board gave me a medical license. They granted me uh they restrict probationary. Um a probationary medical license that I never thought I would get again.

[00:42:10]Uh I'm practicing medicine at a a remarkable little um free homeless medical clinic in South Central LA.

[00:42:22]Never thought I'd do that, and I love it. I love it.

[00:42:25]I'm married.

[00:42:27]That's a whole different story. She's not an addict at all. Uh, but uh boy, she's just the most remarkable woman I've ever met in my whole life.

[00:42:36]Um she has daughters that are my stepdaughters.

[00:42:41]Uh, I spend weekends now going to cheerleading contests, and um but I'm very, very, very connected to the recovery community, and I always will be. I'll never I'll never leave because um it's only through this community that I was able to find some hope and keep moving forward. Um wasn't another book that I've read thousands of books in my life. It wasn't another book.

[00:43:09]It wasn't another sermon. You know, it wasn't another uh Les Brown or Dale Carnegie tape.

[00:43:17]You know, it was just people helping me, encouraging me, being present for me.

[00:43:23]Simplest [ __ ] in the world uh over time has helped me to build a life that I will not walk away from now.

[00:43:31]It's wild. My life today is nothing like I ever anticipated 20 10, 20, 30 years ago even.

[00:43:43]And I've never felt more satisfied and fulfilled, and that's not a dramatic statement cuz we're rolling. That's truth. I've never felt more satisfied, never felt more fulfillment, and just contentment.

[00:43:55]So, drugs, my addiction took me I'll say this.

[00:44:03]I've heard people say this in the past, and I used to I didn't understand it, but I do now. I'm grateful for all those losses. I I actually and I wasn't then, but I'm grateful for the failures. I'm grateful for the suffering. I'm grateful for the losses.

[00:44:17]I'm grateful for the suicidal thinking.

[00:44:19]I'm grateful for the shame. I'm grateful for the hopelessness. I'm grateful for the strain over the last 30 years because it was only through that that I ever would have found this.

[00:44:33]I really believe that.

[00:44:36]Um So, I'm a firm believer today in 12-step recovery for sure. Absolutely.

[00:44:45]Um I'm a believer in community. I'm a believer in second chances. I'm a believer in 25th chances.

[00:44:53]I really am.

[00:44:54]Um Cuz I've been given about 50.

[00:44:59]>> [snorts] >> So, it's a beautiful story.

[00:45:04]Ken, what would you say is the most important lesson you've learned in all of this?

[00:45:08]The most important lesson I've learned is in fact for me um I need people in my life.

[00:45:16]I I the most important piece in my life and I've never said this.

[00:45:22]30 years ago you asked me, "What's the most important thing in your life?"

[00:45:25]Getting it being on the Dean's list, right? And then 2 years later um being at the top of the you know, getting the best grade in the you know, if you look at the way I've pursued my life, it was always very externally driven.

[00:45:38]And I'm not saying that's wrong for everybody, but for me I see how wrong it was because now the most important piece in my life are a handful of just remarkable men and women that I just cannot separate myself. I can't imagine life without them. I can imagine life without the car, the you know, the Gucci suit or what I you know.

[00:46:03]But, uh I can't imagine that. So, for me the biggest lesson I've learned is no matter what happens for me in my life, you stay connected to your friends.

[00:46:13]Not your associates, not your acquaintances.

[00:46:16]You keep nurturing those relationships because those are the only things that are actually sustainable.

[00:46:22]Sustainability is a word that I've gotten used to thinking about in the last couple of years.

[00:46:29]Cars she Shine wears off everything.

[00:46:33]Shine wears off everything. I don't care what she looks like. I don't care what he looks like.

[00:46:39]I don't care how new it is, how you know, it's it The shine wears off everything. Everything is this and this.

[00:46:44]I need something sustainable in my life.

[00:46:48]And I find that with with the close connections and friendships now that I also have with my wife and my stepdaughters. These are the things that actually matter to me. I'm not saying I don't want a Range Rover.

[00:47:01]>> [laughter] >> Right? If you give me a winning lottery ticket, I'll take the [ __ ] you know?

[00:47:06]What I'm saying is I have learned at 54 years of age I feel like I've missed 30 years of just the most important thing, and it was right in front of me.

[00:47:18]So, that was a big lesson for me. When I'm in trouble, I ask for help. I call them I call these guys all the time.

[00:47:23]I don't have any problem with it.

[00:47:25]Um Do you still have moments where you feel like the relapse is a possibility or Oh, it's always a possibility. Yeah.

[00:47:36]It's um Yeah. [clears throat] Uh it's I can tell you that the the thoughts and the urges are far less frequent, but they do happen.

[00:47:47]See, the thing of it is um and this goes into the bi- the neurobiology that, you know, I don't I'm not going to explain, but what happens is if you look at any person who struggles with addiction, those people will The reason they wind up homeless, the reason they wind up underweight, the reason they wind up disheveled and [ __ ] off and out of their minds and dehydrated is because the addiction actually is more powerful than satisfying maintaining your basic physiological needs.

[00:48:22]That's power.

[00:48:24]And when you do that with repetition over and over and over, your brain doesn't forget.

[00:48:30]Addiction is very very much lies in the subconscious brain.

[00:48:35]So, over years and years and years, I'm programming my brain. I don't realize I'm doing it, but I'm programming my brain to believe that when I feel any of these things, sends a thought to my brain that Oh, I know what the solution is. It's actually no different. It's the same part of the brain mark that regulates the that governs the way we respond to need.

[00:48:57]When your body gets dehydrated, depleted of water enough, it will tell you what it needs.

[00:49:06]Am I wrong? Mhm. If your body gets depleted of nutrition enough, it will tell you what it needs.

[00:49:14]There are basic things we need for survival that is governed by a very specific part of the subconscious mind.

[00:49:21]And that's the same part that actually is control in people like me who are addicts. So, all this to say that yeah, it still happens. And the reason it still happens is because that part of the brain it's quiet right now.

[00:49:33]Right? It's quiet right now, but it's not dead.

[00:49:36]It's just sleeping.

[00:49:39]And if the life throws me a curveball, if if you know what I mean, if I get a a spiritual sucker punch for whatever reason, if my wife pisses me off, it will still come.

[00:49:50]It's strange.

[00:49:53]A crack pipe and a bottle of booze or whatever addiction destroyed every meaningful thing in my life. Don't you find it interesting that I would even think about it still?

[00:50:06]But we do.

[00:50:08]Relapse is always a possibility, but as long as I stay connected with this fellowship of men and women that I'm talking about, as long as I keep, you know, um doing step work and all the things that work for me, I'll be okay today.

[00:50:23]But it it's it's it's always a possibility. I never thought it was possible when I was eight or nine years sober.

[00:50:31]In Syracuse, I would have told you point-blank, "No, never going to happen."

[00:50:38]I never even thought about it until I did.

[00:50:44]So, it's always a possibility.

[00:50:46]I just I lower my ri- I keep my risk very low.

[00:50:50]I have a lot of life that I want to protect. I have a wife and a family I want to protect. I have these friendships I want to protect. There's no faster way for me to decimate all of that than picking up a crack pipe or a needle or whatever. There's no faster way.

[00:51:06]My friends know. Give me one drink, see what happens. Just one.

[00:51:11]Cuz that [ __ ] circuit will wake up hungry, thirsty, angry.

[00:51:20]It wants attention. This is the way it works. I've done this dozens of times.

[00:51:24]All it takes is one, and that [ __ ] wants attention.

[00:51:29]So, I stay best I can, I try to stay three steps ahead of it.

[00:51:34]As long as I do that, I'll be okay.

[00:51:37]But it's always there. It is. It's always there. It's like the first girlfriend you ever had or you the worst girlfriend you ever had, right? That just lingers and back and forth and back and forth. You know, it just goes on and on and on and on and on.

[00:51:50]And finally you're like, get the [ __ ] out, you know, this is killing me. I'm becoming someone I'm I don't even know who I am. My parents don't know who my family doesn't know who I am. This is just destroying me. But for some strange reason you can't get rid of her.

[00:52:04]Or him.

[00:52:06]Right? For some strange reason it just sucks you in.

[00:52:11]And then finally you have this moment of courage.

[00:52:15]Right? This moment of I'm [ __ ] done.

[00:52:19]And what do you do?

[00:52:21]Get the [ __ ] you put a footprint in her back. And you mean it.

[00:52:25]You mean it.

[00:52:28]I've done this.

[00:52:30]And you know what I did 24 hours later?

[00:52:32]Called her.

[00:52:33]>> [laughter] >> Right? You call her. And this goes on forever and ever and ever and finally by some act of God, usually involving the support of other people, physical removal, protection, you can finally separate. The worst, most abusive, most horrendous, [ __ ] up situation, relationship you've ever had in your life, you can finally separate and you would think that would bring you relief.

[00:53:04]But you keep thinking about it.

[00:53:06]Oh. Oh. Oh.

[00:53:09]It's no different than that. It the dynamic is the same only with my addiction it's about you know, a thousand [clears throat] times more intense.

[00:53:18]Cuz I'd rather smoke crack than bang any woman on the planet.

[00:53:23]I mean there's no discussion. It's far more powerful.

[00:53:27]But when you finally separate and you move on and maybe you find someone else and you're in a healthy relationship now, six years down the road, six years separated from the most destructive woman or man you've ever met in your life, you still think about them.

[00:53:48]Never goes away.

[00:53:50]Never It's never going to go away from me.

[00:53:53]Never going to go away.

[00:53:54]I'm okay with that.

[00:53:57]Cuz I I have I have a a community of men and women.

[00:54:03]We just We recover together. We protect each other.

[00:54:07]It's It's that serious. It is.

[00:54:09]It is that serious.

[00:54:13]So, relapse is always a possibility.

[00:54:16]Just not today.

[00:54:18]So.

[00:54:19]Awesome.

[00:54:21]Ken, thank you so much for sharing your great story.

[00:54:24]Thank you. I It's It's an honor to be here.

[00:54:27]It's an honor to be here. I'm glad you found your a good community to to help you. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Ken.

[00:54:33]Mhm.