Teh Tarik With Walid: Episode 148 - Dr Chee Soon Juan

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:02]one we have a really special guest today. He was one of the earlier guest on Tetar with W as well five years ago.

[00:00:10]Dr. Chisunjan very recognizable. He has been a one of the leaders of the opposition, one of a leader of the opposition party since 1993.

[00:00:21]And his book which I hope everyone gets this uh unbroken the power of resilience was published last year 2025. Uh and I just took a look at uh the chapter titles and it's incredible. Chapter one when the storm breaks early years the shock of dismissal public censure and the first defamation suit. and it goes on and on. So this this book uh so welcome Dr. Chi thanks for this book is essentially an a story about yourself right about an unbreakable spirit uh but of course you have your political stories um weaved in throughout. So my first question to you is you suffered yet another heartbreak or was it a heartbreak in 2025? Um how do you feel about that about the the whole process which transpired you know this book although I've related I've woven into the narrative some of my own personal experiences my lived experience as far as the political setbacks um the trials that I've had to go through I've weaved into this whole idea that you know we are just a lot more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.

[00:01:34]And the more important thing that I want to bring across in this book is that there are techniques based on science, neuroscychological science that we can acquire, cultivate, strengthen and just to be able to not merely bounce back whenever we fall, whenever we fail, but to then be able to push ourselves forward, learn from those experiences. And the one thing that I find very much missing from this this conversation is that our brains are wired that they have the capability of just learning and getting stronger much like the muscles that you have in your body when you go to the gym. So that's the the essence of what I want to put across in this book. That's amazing because you say the human and I think a lot of people don't intuitively think that we are as strong as we actually are. Right.

[00:02:35]So the human brain is wired you say to deal with those kinds of adversity. Is the human brain wired to deal with defamation suits election losses going up and down court going to prison. Yeah, that that's the degree of sometimes the the the levels that of difficulties that you've got to deal with.

[00:02:56]The good news is that every time you're able to overcome and learn from these setbacks, the next one that you experience because the way as I said your your brain is wired uh you you are then stronger and able to uh endure.

[00:03:15]So much so that when you begin to then move forward, you find that if I had compared to now, for example, versus when you say my first experience of of getting a defamation suit that was just traumatic doesn't even begin to describe the experience that feelings that you get. we had to sell off our house, our car, our possession. That was tremendously difficult to deal with. Uh but when you're talking about after years of having trained in resilience building uh you find that whatever setbacks you a very similar experience you find that you be you're able to deal with it better >> if you are you know you're very consciously applying some of these these neurosychological techniques.

[00:04:09]>> So Lassio's loss didn't hurt as much as the first one. I I I'll tell you that it hurts. Believe me, it hurts. And and you know when I was at Evans Road that evening when you know the camera was just focused on me when the announcement was made.

[00:04:24]>> I saw you >> I I people said that that I was I was I but basically I was just I took off my glasses. I'm just pressing my eyes because I was just tired.

[00:04:34]>> Okay.

[00:04:34]>> So you know I I I wasn't crying. Let's put it this way. uh but difficult as it was at that time compared to say for example the the first elections and then having getting rejected over and over and over that was very difficult to deal with. But as you go through in in time, you begin to know learn how to be able to cope and not not just to do it stoically, uh, but to be able to tell yourselves you're spring forward.

[00:05:10]>> You've got a goal that you've got to achieve.

[00:05:14]And that has made it a little less difficult, let's put it this way, a little less difficult to accept that loss. And the more important thing is to look forward not just to the next election but to be a to see how you can be uh continue to strengthen yourself and to continue what you set out to do even decades ago and that helps tremendously. Did the victory oh sorry did the defeat uh hurt more or less because it was so close you've never been that close in fact you were a whisker away from the NCMP seat before the temp results came in you were actually and that was the last result to come in you were actually going to be NCMP so did it hurt more or less because >> I you know for me the the whole idea of u getting and Being in parliament, especially through the NCMP uh seat, is not as strong as my whole goal of wanting to change not just the vote, but to change the minds of of Singaporeans because if they understand where our nation is presently and the need, the crucial need, the urgent need for us to be able to reform our system and to bring it to the next level of development.

[00:06:44]>> What >> if they can understand that that is is something which I treasure a lot more than merely getting the NCMPC in parliament.

[00:06:53]>> What do you think about the Singaporean mind? Before I I do want to ask about Sambawang West, the Singaporean mindset or the Singaporean voter mindset. What do you think needs to be changed >> through the decades? I think it's more than just um a a behavior. I think it's become a culture and culture is always alive and it can be molded and as I said through the the decades the government the PAP has very successfully implemented or cultivated a culture where people are fearful. Uh that I think is the number one motivation when it comes to >> Do you think that's still true? People take pictures with you probably in 10 years ago people wouldn't want to do podcast with you. Do you think that has shifted over?

[00:07:48]>> Obviously that that has is just starkly changed. Years ago before pre uh before the internet days I used to stand outside center point. That was when you know >> center point was focus on orchard road right >> young people don't know where that is >> those say that that uh what do you call 80s 1980s is called the the more kids but in any case that was the happening place. So I was selling books and people would see me and from afar you could see them give me a very wide birth and walk past and through the years uh especially now with the advent of social media that has broken a lot of taboos and mindsets especially when they see me now unfiltered >> not necessarily through the lens of media corp not through the pages of Straits Times and if they're able to see me talking like they what they're doing right now >> uh they're Well, you know, I I've had literally had people coming up to me and said, "Hey, I I you're not insane."

[00:08:49]And and you know, they say with the sincerest of, you know, and I said, "Yeah, you know, you come and feel the forehead." Yeah. You know, horns coming out here. You see, but that was the power of the media, especially when absence of any ability, any avenue of pushing back and showing what the reality is.

[00:09:07]>> You know, it's very powerful. People do have their mindsets formed.

[00:09:10]>> What explains the results then? If the fear has dissipated, what explained the Is it just people love the BAP?

[00:09:17]>> I I I think I think there are remnants of that fear. I've had so many people come up to me still and say, "Look, uh uh we I walked into the booth and I was so determined to cast a vote for the opposition." But at that point, many of them are civil servants or even, you know, step boards and that kind of thing or have something to do uh to do with the the government. Sometimes people want things, oh my son is about to get a promotion or whatever and they're just fearful.

[00:09:50]>> So sometimes just very unrealistic, unfounded fear, but there is still >> right >> and that really accounts for sometimes that that marginal >> by the way voting is 100% secret. Okay.

[00:10:04]So yes and every opposition candidate also goes through the process right and you get to witness it. Uh but that fear still exists. I've heard many people still say it. Um >> it's attenuated tremendously but still nevertheless.

[00:10:19]>> So let's let's talk about Sambawang where uh and it's it's quite a remarkable story in its own right. Um your constituency mysteriously disappeared and and then of course you went to Simbawang West. Um and you got really well I think 47%. I mean that's that's the best you've gotten so far.

[00:10:40]What accounts for that? You think >> there would be something a question better put to the residents that from variously I've heard uh from different sources.

[00:10:56]Sometimes it's just at least I like to think of it as that authenticity which you bring to u the political scene and it's not just this flash in the pan fly by night kind of situation. You remain true to your principles. You remain true to the people. Stay loyal um to what really society what you've advocated for society and you walk the talk. uh you live the life and you know the one thing that I' I've detested all my life is to have this very showy kind of political talk where you do more you're more performative than you are substantive and I guess at least I hope that that has come through not just in the past years but through the decades and and I've have taken my my share of knocks and lumps and you continue to stay true and tell the people I'm still here. I'm still standing and >> so you had a national reputation. You think that you could move from the west to the north and people generally still take to you?

[00:12:12]I I I think there's this part of it that I've been around long enough that whether people in Pokeet B or in Sambong where they've come to see me and and what I've been doing, what I've advocated and as I said to remain true to to them and what they're going through and continue through your highs and lows to continue being there as an advocate for them. H one of the least favorite moments one of the moments I didn't like which I mentioned at that point in time your opponent had this line if you remember uh sure Dr. that she has passion but can he build a playground >> which was what was one of the strangest strangest lines. It's not as if she's been in the background. That's the first thing. But also um it's almost dismissive of your entire life experience. But okay, fine. That's in politics. That's fine. But almost as if the singular focus of a member of parliament is constituency work. Now you >> previous I okay maybe this is my my perception. I don't know whether this is true and you can push back. My perception of you were was that you were more of a big ideas guy. you always talk about the macro and took on the macro issues until 2020 you started doing more mun municipal stuff. Um is that how you characterize and that's that's the first thing and second thing does that disadvantage the opposition severely because the PAP will always be able to outperform or outpromise the opposition on municipal issues.

[00:13:49]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, to answer the first part of your question, I think prior, as I said, to the internet, there was only so much we could we could say and do.

[00:13:58]And if the media, state media refused to publish your ideas and what you wanted to do, uh that was it. There was no alternative venue for you to be able to bring it up. So uh after 2005 2006 when we could get on to Facebook and YouTube that's where we we we began to be able to put across our ideas and they're just not big ideas about human rights and democracy >> right >> they were really talking about even to the extent of how we uh would be able to take over the town council uh first 100 days landmarks and everything and we stated very clearly that we would put all these up and make it as transparent as possible and then to make sure to go down to the ground and make sure that the residents had a say in how the town council was run and and these were the ideas. So you're talking about even from very uh big noble ideas such as you know democratic change for >> civil liberties to what you know residents could benefit from an SDP run town council constituency.

[00:15:10]>> That was what we put across and we wanted to put it down in writing and we did you go to our website right now you see it all there. The second part of your your your question about how has that affected the opposition. We've always felt especially for the SDP. I've always, you know, reminded my my members in that sense that whatever the PAP throws at us, we'll take it. We'll take it and then we'll turn around on them by showing that we can do better. Because at the very end when you compare woman to woman, man to man, our passion, our dedication in serving and it's got nothing to do with us being receiving remuneration, free ka, you know, getting all these uh perks were there year in year out, decade in decade out. And that must count for something when we get to the ground and show people what we're capable of. So in that sense, I don't see it as as a >> but can you really concept with the PAP on on municipal issues? I mean passion for sure. I I I definitely agree with you. The the people who volunteer with the PAP maybe I think I'm I'm sure some of them are there really to help but some of them do get benefits and so but if you volunteer with the SEP there's there's no material benefits to it for for sure your supporters are more passionate but can you compete with them with their grassroots machinery and all of >> Yeah. And if you think about it, if you think about it, if you give to me a volunteer that volunteers on passion, on this dedication of a goal that in his or her heart is noble and something good for the country. In other words, not something that's tangible, materialistic like for example a voucher or free car. I can I'll pick this volunteer with passion any time of the day because I can tell you at the end of the day if you this is we come back to psychology somebody with who is extrinsically motivated okay usually performs less well than people who are intrinsically motivated and this comes from when we were children >> uh if if if students you find children tell them. You know, you reward them with ice cream at the end with a uh you know, bigger pocket money or or you know, your game whatever game boy or whatever will always perform less well in the long run than a child who's really motivated to want to learn, who knows the value of of learning and improving oneself, you know, any time of day.

[00:18:10]>> What explains the overall results to the PAP? I mean the fear was there which I I concede is there but it was there in 2020 as well right so 2020 there was a sharp dip but is it Lawrence Wong's popularity is it the tariffs in your in your mind what >> I think you know it's it's really um exercise in futility to look back and see trying to pass out you know how much is it is due to this factor but it's just a combination of things and also at this time because of uh um the continued gerrymandering Right. Uh that has has u played a a huge role in terms of how the uh votes turned out.

[00:18:51]>> Your own uh former constituency uh west coast this was severely affected but Paul Tobayas professor Paul Tobayas one wasn't right. So we cannot say that the redrawing of boundaries affected that yet he performed quite poorly and I was honestly I was embarrassed not for him but for my country like this guy can walk into any cabinet in the world and and we can't give him a seat in parliament is the president of the infectious disease I don't know this but >> globally >> 100% he's worldrenowned epidemiologist >> and not just his >> title his paper qualifications Yeah.

[00:19:32]>> You have ever had the chance to sit and interact with Paul.

[00:19:36]>> You know the level of his his >> interact and his commitment >> uh for someone he look he can sit in he doesn't need >> he doesn't need >> but he doesn't >> he doesn't and and this is why I I feel u I I feel the loss is not his but Singapore.

[00:19:57]>> I agree 100%. But having said that, um, you know, it was this whole idea that I've heard repeatedly, this these $1 deals that his opponent PP was dishing out. Uh, and that's where you're talking about resources. But this is where my worry is in that sense that you begin to adulterate bastardize the entire process and it has become very money politics kind of situation and I don't say this lightly because as we go we used to to Lie Kuan you used to to to berate the Malaysians >> you know in I know Kalanta that kind of thing >> have we degenerated to that as well where we're you know giving $1 meals and so on. I I don't know what the effect was.

[00:20:51]>> Uh but it must have contributed to u some of these people and I've I've heard that from people coming out. Okay, there was one one situation where I don't know I heard from from one of our opposition candidates. They were giving going out and giving goodie bags and one of the voters came up and said what's in there?

[00:21:12]What's in here? This is this is nothing compared to you know what the PAP is giving out and this is where I think it's so >> so how do you compete with that?

[00:21:23]>> How do you compete with CDC vouchers?

[00:21:25]>> If if we do it'll be a race to the bottom. I assure you that and that is not a good thing for for for Singapore and I we just want to be able to use whatever capacity capability we have to tell Singaporeans continue to explain to them don't fall for that because if you do it'll boomerang it'll come back and kick you in the backside and I take that my results go a certain way in terms of >> I I think so too but how do you explain your success versus uh Paul's results.

[00:21:59]>> I'm I'm as I said, you know, it's just not only uh Paul's results. I think across the board uh you know, opposition uh took a dip and that could as you said now, you know, whatever factors in there, whether it is because of tariffs and the whole stalking of this fear or the continued giving out of your vouchers, all that may have played a part in there.

[00:22:27]Uh but therein lies that lesson in that sense that if we continue in this you've got to play the long game. You've got to be able to there and still I'm going to tahan whatever not and continue to be there. That's the price the opposition paid.

[00:22:45]>> I was I was just going to ask that you said play the long game. You've been here 34 years as 33 years as the as the second gen and you've been bankrupted.

[00:22:55]You've been arrested. You've lost elections. Priam has been there since 2011. We know what he's been through.

[00:23:02]Yes. Play the long game. But there are cost to people and families in this.

[00:23:07]>> Yeah. Sometimes, you know, you just don't look at vote percentage or or where you stand gerrymandering that kind of thing. That is a personal cost.

[00:23:15]>> Yeah. uh it's not just uh your own uh life, but you've got families, you've got a wife, a spouse, you've got children who have to go through some of these difficulties as well. But as I said, um you get on your head, right?

[00:23:33]You know what your your goals are and to be able to put in the into context difficulties that you're going through. You know when I talked about resilience in the book, resilience is really undergooded by three pillars, meaning hope and agency.

[00:23:54]>> The one thing about meaning which a lot of people don't give enough u attention to is that when you situate your own difficulties, your own trials and tribulations in in ask the question why are you doing this? And if you can answer it, answer it with clarity, I think that's where you begin to find that your difficulties are a lot easier to to stomach. And that has come from, you know, uh previous Holocaust survivors for example. Uh and this is neuroscientist Holocaust survive Frankle actually said those who know the why to their suffering will be able to handle any of the how. I know that that's fascinating. Uh I' I've I didn't know that that person said that line. Uh but I always think you know there's a reason why you know a lot of times people in the developed world they stop believing in God because of things that happen in the global south right oh if god is just why the African children are poor but >> actually those people those in Palestine in Africa they their faith actually strengthened because they want a why to that right >> but I mean it doesn't have to be religious right it can be a secular why right and and that is the case uh that that you're talking about uh but do you ever question. You know the why, but do you ever question does Mrs. Chi ever question uh uh is this worth it? I'm to be very honest more than I I care to to I mean there's so there's so many times especially those times when I sat on the prison floor and the time you know we were sued and we lost our house I didn't have a job where we're going to get the income and those are the times when you it it really tests your very core But that's when I think you begin to again know uh the meaning and I I talked about the three pillars. Second pillar is hope. If you're able to just manufacture almost manufacture hope and I know that sounds strange you hope you mean you can manufacture it. You almost have to sometimes >> and hope is not this vague optimistic feeling, you know, but hope is to be able to imagine a future which you are willing to fight for. You're willing to to to walk towards even though you don't know what it looks like in this present time. But if you're able to do that then what I'm just saying your meaning is just not saying okay you just d the pain that kind of thing and then don't know how to go forward but meaning hope when you go forward. And then the third pillar agency then to be able to find ways and means in other words okay like in in in very common parliament to strategic planning find steps to achieve that hope to achieve your goals. If you get these three meaning hope, agency, it really begins to put you in a position where you begin that where you're in control of your own destiny and that makes it tremendously easy to >> how does that look like for you for in charting out the steps? Do you have to say I need to get this percentage or I need to affect this number of people, people need to react to me in their walkabouts? What how how do you charter that? You know, I suppose you lay out your your goals and make them bite-size.

[00:27:28]You know, don't say I want to get from one to, you know, to 100 in just one giant leap, right?

[00:27:34]>> What was your target 2025 for you to have hope?

[00:27:38]>> I I I wanted to make sure that at least uh we got out to where I was at that pokeet pa.

[00:27:48]>> So 45, >> right?

[00:27:52]and uh to be able to then tell people that hey look I'm here I'm with you in for the long hall and then that's where I think it begins to people respond it resonates with them and again don't go in people will see through that 100% you know in a minute 100% I don't think I I think even if people disagree with you and there may be some who you you are a controversial figure even people who maybe dislike you. I mean, nobody can take away the fact that you fought your entire life for what you believe in. I I don't think any sane or rational person can can take that away from you. Uh you said the long haul, right? You've been the second gen of SDP since 1993.

[00:28:39]Since then, uh we've had uh three prime ministers. U Britain has had eight including two women and one Indian. Uh Ano has gone to jail twice and become prime minister.

[00:28:51]And here I am.

[00:28:53]>> You are right.

[00:28:54]>> So is it time for a leadership change or what would it take for SDP to to have a leadership change?

[00:29:00]>> Okay, let's make sure we were very clear on this.

[00:29:06]We're talking about the opposition.

[00:29:10]We're talking about the SDP where the leader of the party, secretary general of the party, uh there no purpose.

[00:29:21]You don't have $180,000 waiting for you in the bank every month. Okay? Uh there's no office. All right? You literally have to work just based on your sheer willingness to push yourself. No monetary incentive. Is it any wonder that you don't get a long line of people knocking on say I want to be segnings over and over again, right? And and this is why I'm just saying see people get this wrong impression saying that oh my goodness you know sec gen of of SDP is like SE gen of PAP. No no I I assure you that it's not. Nevertheless, uh um we've been just working our way up to get more and more and more people into our ranks and that has been as I said, you know, before uh um the internet, it was difficult trying to attract people, but since then we've seen a burgeoning especially in the last elections.

[00:30:33]>> Did Arifin breathe a new list of life into your party?

[00:30:36]>> I I think he most certainly did. Most certainly did. And then thereafter we've had and in fact uh our we will grow so much so that uh on this in the fortnight's time we're having uh our young democrats our youth wing having its own congress you know its own platform and so on that I'm just very proud uh to to have seen come through the ranks and we we'll continue to uh mentor groom them and and hopefully they you know will get a whole batch of of candidates that we can field in 2030. I'm I'm very excited about >> and through them then the leaders will emerge >> and then be able to take over section >> because I I've talked to Paul about this he he doesn't want he's he's not he thinks you are the perfect leader for the SDP and uh if that's the case then it will still and I'm not I'm not saying that I I want to see you go. I I I don't think many people would like that. Um I Okay, I I I speak for myself. I don't want to see you go, but um if there is no succession planning, right, do you worry that your party may go down the way of Chamong's party and not Lakang's party?

[00:31:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, also understand that when you talk about succession planning, you you're talking about empowering, enabling the younger generation to come out, find their voices, to be able to and then from there you you see leaders emerge, right?

[00:32:15]Rather than the old USSR days, right? uh from I don't know what from from uh uh Lenin and then pass on to and drop off and then to go and then on down the line brush nef and that kind of thing but leaders may change but if your system does not change you see that demise of the entity in there and this is where I I say uh if you're talking about going down the way it's because we've all been so obsessed with saying hey who's the next leader and the next leader usually sounds and looks like you.

[00:32:52]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:53]>> Right. And that that's not that doesn't give it that that crossolonization that that whole uh need for a rejuvenation and growth. And that's why I'm just very happy to leave it to our our younger generation and then you you find that when you give them space uh when you begin to lead them and just not tell them what to think, >> right? but really, you know, enable them to to really exercise their critical thinking and be able to debate and I think that those are the most valuable tools that at least I can can leave to the younger generation.

[00:33:30]>> Do you have a timeline like remember then PM Lisong said by 70 or something and he missed it by a couple of years but uh because of COVID and whatever it was. Did you have a timeline for yourself? we're not in control of the political, you know, I I can say all these things and then the a few years down the road, uh, PAP gets a bit insecure, nervous and decides to crack down on on the opposition, you know, you don't, it's not really far-fetched and then what happens? So, these are things that you don't sit and kind of do wishful thinking or daydream that kind of you prepare an entire generation. And I'm I'm not just talking about within the SDP.

[00:34:12]>> I'm talking about the wider.

[00:34:14]>> You you you looked at just what happened at the Labor Day rally on May.

[00:34:18]>> I mean, look, >> you you look at the faces over there, the young faces, expectant and really wanting >> to be able to have control over their own lives to at least have a say in the public process, right? National affairs.

[00:34:32]That is where that hope continues to to spring from from within me and to be able to then encourage them and fight to open up political space so that they can come in and play a bigger role that I think is much more important than trying to identify any one individual say I like you. I think you you are good and therefore I will take you under my arm and mentor you and say no no it doesn't quite work that not in a democratic society not in a democratic political party so how would how would it happen this uh is it young people are going to say young people in the party are going to go to you and say Dr. I think it's time for a change. How how what is the mechanism you think?

[00:35:18]>> They don't have to say it. They don't have to say it. I'm saying look uh um whatever it is my time here on >> right. So the moment you sense that that they're ready, you will >> I I think the whole idea is to make sure that you begin to allow them in and begins to fill in uh some of the the positions in the leadership, assign them roles, give them responsibilities, go out and for us in in the SDP especially, uh we continue and encourage them and provide them opportunity to go out into the world and learn what leadership is all about. Political leadership, geopolitical developments, all these things. You've got to be be equipped with all those skills and be able to envision what truly an open democratic society that serves genuinely serves the people. Once they begin to acquire those skills, you would see as I've seen right now, uh, them, you know, wanting to really play a bigger role. Is this new?

[00:36:32]You think this the politicization, if I could use that word, of young people? Do you when was the you know you say turning point or >> I I I don't know when that that turning point specifically went but I again I'll tell you social media plays a big role >> and I I I recall I I look think back of that instance where uh Alfians >> you remember he wanted to to do some cause or something in US >> and then there was a push back from ministry of education at that time education minister was >> and he come out and said that do taxpayers their parents want their children uh and he used the word uh political uh conscientization. Oh, >> and that there's a whole idea of saying that >> uh you know our young people should not be aware of what's going on around that to fight for justice to to to want to make sure that there is some kind whether you know you agree with certain policies or not to be able to voice their concern because society belongs to them. The future belongs to them. But if you want to not you want to you you decry this this political conscientization what you're doing is depriving the entire generation of becoming more conscious of of their environment and that's not good. So to get uh to come back to your question, it's that it was that moment that at least and before that as well you know uh that that younger people wanted to play a bigger role that they were conscious of what's going on in uh society but then when you think back decades ago when Tanwapya >> was was the student leader at that time in the 70s and before that student leaders as well. When you look back, when you then fast forward to today, you still have these student groups at N US, at NUS, SMU, they're still very very conscious of what uh is going on. And that you cannot kill it off.

[00:38:39]>> You can suppress it for a time.

[00:38:41]>> Yeah.

[00:38:41]>> But you can never never eradicate it.

[00:38:44]>> I I find it strange because the PAP says that we can't find people who are interested in politics. Well, maybe because they have been depoliticized.

[00:38:53]Maybe because they are not politically conscious. I want everybody to be politically conscious. That doesn't mean you need to be partisan but >> and that's detrimental to society because you know what do we have right?

[00:39:03]You you keep talking about Singapore having no resources. What our biggest resource is our people and you deprive them then where do you go from here?

[00:39:10]>> Exactly. I mean it's it's it's such a strange way of thinking but the the assumption of course if people are depoliticized I suppose then the arena of contestation would be in the material realm and that's where the PAP can win over the opposition but if people are more politicized then maybe issues of justice and fairness would come >> maybe for a time maybe for a time but we've entered into an era where we're beginning to see this this dimmin ation returns, >> right?

[00:39:42]>> It's almost like sugar cane. You know your kamjia, right? The first time when you want juice, you put it through the grinder, you get thick, nice, sweet sugarce juice, right? You come on the other end, it's been rung out already.

[00:39:57]You put it through again and again.

[00:39:59]Every time you put it through, less and less juice comes out. Right? The same thing with Singapore. You talk about years ago when you mobilize entire population, right? industrialization and then women come out of of the house not be housewives and come but those are one-time events then after that where do you go now we're talking about productivity not reaching it already >> our you're not able to achieve the kind of GDP growth every time you squeeze the people less and less comes out of it and you look at it right now uh even the younger generation have you heard that of this this headline where Younger Singaporeans are increasingly finding themselves homeless.

[00:40:43]>> Yeah.

[00:40:43]>> This is where I'm saying the material well-being can only go so far.

[00:40:47]>> Right.

[00:40:47]>> And this is where I come out in the book again. Right. In terms of our development, personal development, you know, muscle's hierarchy of needs first.

[00:40:56]Yes. You take care of the the the biological >> right. But as you go along, you aspire to something more and more. And if you keep holding off the people from naturally progressing in their development, you find all these mental health issues coming to to the four and this is what's happening right now. I you know we have the highest >> global burnout rates globally and this is a huge huge worry.

[00:41:26]>> Do I see an evolution of Dr. from the civil resistance kind of opposition leader to somebody who works very much within the system of course challenging the PAP core ideologies but still very much within the system lie once described you're somebody who's trying to is it uproot or subvert something like that you know you are trying to change the system root and branch but >> you are no longer that or am I >> misreading yes I I think I think there's a big mp perception because if you go back to the early days when I first joined the SDP at that time one year after I joined the the party I published that to change and in it I talked about the CPF I talked about health care expense I talked about housing expenses I talked about education I talked about cost of living these are things that I me I've talked about there >> uh but at that time as I said there was no social media that I could you know effectively convey all these this this message >> and then through the years as I said I wanted to make sure that there was space at the same time for these issues to bubble up so we decided at that time that uh there was no venue a free free speech venue right so we campaign I picked up the mic and I went to Raffles's place lunchtime >> I was trembling and you cannot see on on him but I was really shaking at the time not because I was afraid of of the police but because I was afraid nobody would show up but sure enough I and at that time don't this is all pre- internet days that but a huge crowd showed up and it just signal to me that people were hungry for wanted to hear alternative views right so at that time before and that was where I started getting into trouble and then you know having to go uh uh repeatedly to prison because I didn't want to cooperate and pay the fine. It was a fine. Okay. I didn't want to cooperate and pay the fine. So I you in in default went to prison. Now what came of it was then slowly Lie Kuan Yu then was accosted at the World Economic Forum at Davos and asked the question why can't you know Singaporeans at this level have a venue to free speech and to everyone's surprise he said yeah probably and two year 2000 speaker corner came about and through the years then we began to find that space and this >> should you credit for a lot of credit I think. No, why not? No. Why not?

[00:44:10]>> That's not that's not the the point that I I'm trying to get.

[00:44:12]>> But the point is is not self agrandization, right? Is to show that you do this, you get this, right?

[00:44:18]>> Yes. And that my point my point is to say that this whole very uh what do you call Bobian kind of >> uh and then say yeah what to do it's like this. No, it's not. In psychology, we call that learned helplessness, >> right?

[00:44:37]>> Uh but what I'm just saying that as we go along uh in terms of where we want to go uh in life, you find that if you don't do anything, nothing changes. If you do something, things may still not change. But that's where the humanness in us comes comes about. And if you look at history, even as I said in Singapore, uh nothing ever changes if people don't put in effort. And this is that why I keep saying that whole message of hope is just not me trying to to you know kind of thing. But it really it really is something my own lived experience shows me. If anybody asked me you, anyone here in Singapore say in 1999 >> we'll have a street free speech corner you'd be laughed out of the room.

[00:45:30]>> Yeah.

[00:45:31]>> But we tried and there was strategy there was a goal and when you appeal to people's good people's nature of you know what is good about the human race things will change. So your I mean it goes back to something we discussed earlier, right? Um this idea of hope being essential for a human being. It it's what makes a human human, right?

[00:45:55]It's one one of the three things you mentioned. Um so I I definitely agree with that. Um but with all of that all of that that so speakers 2000 2025 was the election social media decrease in fear yet the PAP got 65%. Surely on 3rd May 2025, you lost a little bit of hope.

[00:46:17]In that sense that again, you know, you take two steps forward, one step back.

[00:46:24]Yeah, you get demoralized. Yes. for a time but you cannot wallow in that whole misery your whole idea of fear and failure after I don't know you know as I said it gets shorter and shorter that time for me to get over it and then get back on your feet and then continue on with what you have to do that period becomes shorter and shorter and you know I talked about your your brain that's physical psychologists call resilience circuit that actually gets activated and every time you experience a setback you experience some kind of very negative kind of experience if you're able to overcome it then what you find that this circuitry this pathway through the process of neuroplasticity it makes that part of your brain stronger so if you took MRI scan of my brain say 30 years ago compared to it I can confidently say that morphologically you will see that in that.

[00:47:32]>> Are there any pictures?

[00:47:34]>> Yes. Of your brain. No, no, no, no. I wish I had taken it, you know, I realized I would have taken it.

[00:47:41]>> But that's so fascinating.

[00:47:42]>> But it is and I'm just saying that this is where I I think that whole fascination about that interaction between behavior and your brain >> comes in. And that's why I try to relate in my book and show people that you know it's not this whole idea that this aura that you have around your head and it is very much it resides very much in in your living body and if you know how to tap harness it is tremendously powerful.

[00:48:11]Okay. Thank you so much. That that was that was quite quite incredible. I I was I was really moved uh by that. Um, do you remember uh the last time uh we had this? This was five years ago and we did it online. I asked you um who was your favorite uh PAP person. Do you remember was the answer you gave?

[00:48:34]>> I'm almost afraid to ask. What was it again?

[00:48:38]>> Ah, okay. Okay.

[00:48:40]>> Uh have you have you taken uh kindly to anyone since then? Since 2020, 2021, has anybody impressed you in the past five years?

[00:48:50]>> You know, when you talk about being impressed, I look into the heart and not to what they say on stage, right?

[00:49:00]I want to be able to reach out to these younger ministers and tell them it's not worth our country is not worth getting the kind of salaries that they're so used to.

[00:49:17]We have only one country and your existence here on earth is only a very brie. Leave behind. Leave behind a legacy that people can be proud of that you say you have enabled us right now.

[00:49:32]Not just continue to focus on our next paycheck or when are we going to get our vouchers, but to leave behind the legacy that we've empowered the people to think for themselves. Because one when you you're long gone, humanity, our country, our republic, our citizenry still needs to go on. And then we need to compete with other countries. If we don't in equip them right now with the ability to critically think to creatively think, we're going to really really begin to lose out. So if you're asking about being impressed, I again I look into the heart, not just the words of our present set of PP ministers. So to answer your your question in a very long-winded manner, I still go back. to look at the older generation which I know I I you know having spoken some of them are still alive they really had the heart of Singapore and very sacrificial >> very sacrificial >> okay thank you uh you mentioned salaries and this is one of the issues we're going to wrap up soon always one of the issues that that comes up um um how would you respond to the assertion that this is the reality we live in the real world we don't live in La La Land, we need to attract the brightest minds to join and the brightest minds, they are not only motivated by money. But money is an important part of a human beings uh motivation calculus. So how would you respond to that? This is what we have to do. If if our resources are our only resources as you said are human beings, then we need to get the best and brightest to to serve.

[00:51:12]you know, I've I've been to uh some of these these institutions overseas and spoken to our Singaporean students that my message to them is this that if we focused on the things that are right and not just on material you know accumulation then I will tell them I keep telling them that wealth wealth in its most profound sense will flow You don't have to worry about that.

[00:51:45]Okay? And it's not that it's not important, but know what your priorities in life are is.

[00:51:53]>> I come back again to uh uh this long long long uh study that someone did for about the last 70 to 80 years. What's the most important thing when they followed up with their subjects? uh and it was a longitudinal study that the most important factor that make people happy was not money was not success or was not your your what kind of car you drove it was your relationship with the people around you that's what made people happy and we make the mistake of equating happiness with wealth >> I'm not saying again that we all should take a vow of poverty because we want to be happy no you you don't >> but what I'm just trying to sell get at the right things in life and everything else will follow. Look, I I'm not rich.

[00:52:41]I still continue to live in a three- room flat. Okay. But if you ask me, am I happy? Yes. I I've got wonderful family.

[00:52:49]My children, my my my wife is still there, you know. Um we don't live in a big house, but we get by. But my most important thing is to be able to say and and that's where I feel most contented.

[00:53:03]Not happy in the sense you go to the pub and drink and sing car. No, not that kind of happiness, but really to be able to say to derive that gratification, that contentment in life and to be to experience this, I don't mean to be cliched about, but this this inner joy to be able to continue to do what I'm doing right now. And that is to try to lead Singaporeans into a world where we can really experience what to be human again to be able to think to be free from fear >> to be able to you know to to debate and to look at the the issues and then to participate in in in society.

[00:53:41]>> No that's that's great because you mentioned that you are happy and contented and I fully believe it. I I have no doubts that you are um because you have put ascribe a meaning to your life and your social relationships. I think a lot of uh young people can can can learn from that. Um but happiness is not something when if I were to ask people what association with Dr. Chi, they will they won't say oh he's a happy person. That's not they'll say he's angry or he's confrontational say all of that. And Jess was telling me that she uh off of off off air she was telling me that you're one of the most humorous person she has uh she has met. Um why doesn't that come through right why does it always you're always serious you're always angry about something >> you I I think that it's because from the years you again you ask different generations uh boomers of you know generation would say you you know this angry man that kind of boomers because as I said >> years ago every photo that came up was me scowling or eyebrow cocked in a certain my my >> you know that kind of thing.

[00:54:53]>> Having said that, I just want to say a lot of times I talk about rather serious matters, you know, cost of living, mental health.

[00:55:00]>> Don't you think it'd be a bit creepy for me as I said, keep smiling.

[00:55:04]>> You know, people say keep smiling, you know, make people wonder what you know, what you're hiding. You see that kind of thing. So, as I said, there are there are times for you to smile and I get to, for example, at rallies and so on. I you know people see me and and you know I'm I'm jo as I said you know but there are times you've got to be serious and button down and start talking about issues. So my I'll smile whenever I can.

[00:55:32]for example, right now.

[00:55:34]>> Final question. Um, over the past three to five years, um, my and I I ask you this because I don't think there is anybody who has fought for democracy in in the purest form for me, the way I understand democracy because everybody says they're democratic, right? But nobody has fought for democracy in this country more than you. I genuinely mean that. Um but my my faith in democracy is eroding because of what has happened you know in Palestine in the western countries the hypocrisy of democracy or or even closer to whom Anoa who who was who was you know seen by many people maybe not me but many people as a liberal democrat and his alliance with ANO and so on. Um what is your what is your pitch? Why should Singaporeans still believe in democracy >> when you talk about democracy? Please don't hold up any country or any one individual as your yard stick. They will fail you every single time. They will disappoint you every single time. What democracy is a set of principles, set of practices. Use that because every society, every system finds its own way under the big rubric of democracy.

[00:56:52]Right? So what does democracy entail?

[00:56:54]Let's not go too far. Let's look at our own constitution. Singapore constitution. It guarantees us I think it's article 14 14a guarantees us the freedoms to association peaceful assembly right and speech expression.

[00:57:13]You're talking about these three principles and at its very core freedom of expression means that at least you have not just media core and the government sits on top of it. Right? Then you have uh free speech to be able to assembly peaceful assembly not just at Hongland Park >> right and then you have association whereby we are able to form our own groups you know and be able to have this dialogue debate. So if these three principles, they're non-existent in Singapore at this moment and that's what we should work towards and I dare say that if ever we achieve that breakthrough, we will be that that that that shining hill, shining star on a hill, right? to be able to show the world at least that this is the kind of democracy uh where people debate they may agree they disagree but they agree to disagree in a civilized manner these are the things that I aspire to and you know continue to hold out that something a vision that we can try to fulfill so don't look at any one individual and you talk about the west you a lot of times you talk about the US and UK that never been my yard stick. But you look further a few >> the Nordic countries, >> I think they're doing much better job.

[00:58:41]You look at for example, I'm not saying that they're perfect society, right?

[00:58:44]>> Uh but you look at for example closer to home, Taiwan, Korea, maybe even New Zealand, >> these are the places that I I think have not been captured by these big corporate interests. uh they begin to you know be able to pull strings and that is is a huge huge problem.

[00:59:05]>> Dr. Chi, you may not have ever been in parliament but I think you will definitely go down as one of the most consequential opposition politicians in Singapore's history. I have no doubts about that. Um and thank you. Thank you for everything. Thank you. And I think I rarely do this but uh thank you to Mrs. Chi as well. I'm sure you wouldn't have been able to do all of this if she uh didn't endorse it.

[00:59:30]Um and you've given a lot for for this country. Uh whether people agree with your cause, you have given a lot. I don't think they can deny that. Right.

[00:59:40]Um so, okay, you may not be able to beat playgrounds. Um but uh you have definitely affected democracy and politics in Singapore in an enormous way. So, thank you for everything and thank you for this episode.

[00:59:52]>> Thanks for doing this. Okay. Good evening everyone. Bye-bye. Okay.

[00:59:57]Okay. Just talk. Okay.

[01:00:02]Okay.