Why Bitcoin's Bottom Might Already Be In – And Where It Goes Next

[00:00:00]Owning Bitcoin is only stomachable for those who want to hold who want exposure to the volatility. That's not many people. The largest pools of capital in [music] the world, insurance firms, pension funds, they don't want to hold that volatile asset. But they may, if they could, in the future, and I'm sure we'll get into this, [music] want to hold a stable or targeting stable asset that is high yield and backed by Bitcoin. Um, [music] that's when Bitcoin becomes this asset. That's why Bitcoin treasured the most fascinating [music] thing and what I think kind of unlocks the whole Bitcoin thesis.

[00:00:39]>> Ben, welcome to welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:42]How you doing?

[00:00:43]>> Yeah, very well, Jordan. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:46]>> It's great to have you on. I've made you get up nice and early for this recording before work.

[00:00:53]>> It's good. I was thinking it's very very good that England went in the World Cup uh final last night because otherwise it would have been but no it's always a nice bright and early morning.

[00:01:04]Yeah. Did you watch the World Cup? Do you know what I um I watched Extra Time last night? I didn't watch the whole game. I saw it nil nil and had to turn it on. Um but I'm I'm sad that I missed it. It looked like an amazing game.

[00:01:18]>> Yeah, I only watched the first half of Extra Time. So uh [laughter] That was that was all and then I fell asleep. [laughter] >> That's fair enough. That's the problem.

[00:01:28]It's so late. But >> yeah, that has been the problem with this one. Um, right. Let's get into Bitcoin. [laughter] Enough of football.

[00:01:40]Although we could do a football podcast.

[00:01:43]I've got that >> a big one Bitcoin and football yet.

[00:01:50]>> Um, right. Let's get into it. And I think the best way to kick it off is just could you give like just just a little bit about you and your background um for anyone that's not come across you or heard you on other podcasts before?

[00:02:08]Yeah, of course. So, um I am a investment analyst at Krock. Um Krock I've been there for about a year and a half now. uh in Kiwok primarily known for being a market maker. Um that's what we've been for um a long time but we've recently kind of pivoted as well into um options trading, OTC trading and now increasingly um asset management um which has opened up a lot of doors for me because it means as an analyst I can explore um different topics outside of the asset that we make markets on and look into things uh a bit deeper. Um, we're one of the largest market makers on Bitcoin, which is why, uh, I think I have a fair amount to say on that and can look into, um, water books and things like that to give you a bit more color. Um, but yeah, I mean, I've been there for about a year and a half. Prior to that, I worked at, um, Decentral Park Capital, uh, which was a liquid token hedge fund. spent three years there uh as an investment analyst reporting into a portfolio manager to really understood uh how to go deep on different crypto companies, how to value different assets like Bitcoin but it um also um other assets which I would consider more tech plays um which might be you know your dexes these kind of things. Um, and before that I was in traditional finance. So I spent about a year and a half at Wellington Management on their fixed income desk. And I'm sure we can get into why they pivot in a minute if you like, but that's kind of a background on myself.

[00:03:41]Yeah. No, I'm interested in like [clears throat] why we're going to go into that right now cuz it's perfect. Like why what made you pivot? Was there like a moment that you were like or Yeah. what was that made that shift actually happen?

[00:03:58]>> Yeah, it's funny. So, I think um for somebody who's worked in uh crypto professionally for over 5 years, I had quite a strange route into crypto. Um so, as everybody else does when you're at university, I decided to start a company with a few friends from my B from my bedroom, right? This probably second year of university. Um and it just so happened that the process we were trying to speed up made sense to integrate smart contracts. Um now like every university business that's now in a graveyard somewhere and hasn't been looked at since. But it got me really interested in this concept of smart contracts and um the efficiencies that they can introduce into different processes and businesses. So I ended up going down a serious rabbit hole at university. Um and this was after uh Wellington management because that was a placement um position. So I'd done that traditional finance thing, come back to university, learned about smart contracts and thought they were just incredible. So I spent um my final year whilst doing my dissertation and everything also blogging about chain link and unis swap and learning about oracles and amm and everything really loved it. Um and that was how I landed the job at Dententral Park. Now, at this point, I really hadn't been exposed that much to Bitcoin, which is why I say it's an unusual route. I went into the smart contract side of things and the decentralized application side before Bitcoin. Um, and it wasn't until a colleague at Decentral Park recommended I read uh Michael How's um Capital Wars book that I suddenly started to understand Bitcoin and why that was potentially more interesting than everything else I was looking at. um obviously for different reasons. So um the thesis in Michael How's uh book if if uh people haven't read it and I'd highly recommend you go and read it. He has um a substack um which I believe he's behind a pay wall but some of them aren't so definitely go and give it a go. But he essentially looks at liquidity flows around the world. Um and he makes the case that the system stopped funding growth um and they started um just refinancing debt uh essentially in cycles and it got to the point where this recycling of debt refinancing of debt um happens on a a cycle basis every four or five years which coincidentally kind of lines up with haring cycle. Um but what it does is makes liquidity non-optional. So if global liquidity ever contracts, um this refinancing cycle becomes a serious issue. Uh and it kind of introduced to me the idea that debasement isn't a choice. It's actually something that mechanically happens and I'm sure as loads of people have said in your podcast before. I won't go into it too much. That train is is already started and you're not going to be able to stop it. um inflation shows up in assets first, but then um it kind of came full circle to me that Bitcoin is the way out. And that was when I pivoted, at least from my own personal maximalism, from you know, decentralized to rails to decentralized to money.

[00:07:12]>> Nice. Yeah, it's unusual that you have that someone [clears throat] coming in from the smart contract side of things and then looking at it like the bigger picture of it. Um, yeah, I don't hear that often.

[00:07:28]>> It's strange like somebody could be a Salana Maxi before they're a Bitcoin maxi. I I can't tell you how long I spent uh analyzing liquid staking on Solano and why it's so much more interesting than liquid staking on Ethereum before I finally kind of got the Bitcoin thesis.

[00:07:43]Obviously, you understand it like base level, but once you go really deep on it, I feel like it's hard to to look at anything else with the same kind of lens.

[00:07:52]>> Yeah. Um, when you mentioned the four-year cycle there, because I've never read that book or I' I've not even heard of the author. Was it Howie? Did you say >> Michael? How >> Michael How?

[00:08:08]>> Yeah.

[00:08:09]>> Yeah. Um, that's interesting. I'll go and research that. Um, but talking about the 4-year cycles with Bitcoin where looking at us now where we are like what what does it look like to you from like more of like a data side of things and like is it just for me cuz I did a podcast about this like for me it just it feels the same as 2022 4 years ago.

[00:08:44]>> Yeah. Um, it just feels very similar, but there's people out there that are getting frustrated and like there's times different and it's that's always said. What What's your take on it all?

[00:08:55]>> Yeah, it's funny. I I I agree with you.

[00:08:58]The vibes feel very similar. Um, but in the data there are some slight nuances which I think are really positive in the setup. Um, so the first one would be what I've been looking at, and I want to be really careful here because this could get clipped to some kind of bottom signal, which I'm not trying to. Um, I think if you look at the draw down compression cycle over cycle, it kind of averages around 80% each cycle. So you go back to 2022, I think we're looking at something like 84%. Uh, sorry, 2018, 84%, 2022, 77%.

[00:09:35]Um we're now drawn down about 50% from all time highs in October last year. Um what I think is interesting there is that we're seeing this compression um cycle over cycle even through um large volumes of selling which we've had of late. ETFs for example have printed their worst month in June uh negative $4.1 billion in outflows. Um but it's it's interesting to me again I'm not calling the bottom but it's impressive that we've managed to um kind of shallow that draw down cycle over cycle and I think there's a few reasons for this uh which I can get into um and a few kind of signs that we're seeing which are flickers of hope for why this could be a bot and why I feel comfortable saying this now. So um the first is ETF flows and for me this is the most important thing to watch. I think everybody who watches price is watching uh something downstream of flows and ETF flows are the largest uh kind of capital movement in in Bitcoin at the moment. Um so the point to make here really is that like I said last June we had the biggest red month to date in ETFs. You've got a 7080 billion capital pool that bled just over $4 billion last month alone. It's terrible. It's really bad look. But if you look a little bit deeper, um my analysis shows that this is fast money leaving. Um it's not people who want to hold the asset, it's traders. Um so I think Coin Shares put out a report which was really really insightful. They showed that 95% of the selling in Q1 was from hedge fund and trading desk. Now these are primarily um this is capital that's for example chasing the cash and carry trade uh which is massively compressed as funding rates have gone down or this is capital that's chasing um I don't want to call it a quick buck but they're trying to make a return they don't believe in a thesis this is exactly the kind of capital that's going to rotate into um the AI trade or they're going to rotate into prediction markets where they can make a bit more money um so in a suppressed um Bitcoin market, you're going to see these kind of people move. Now, the positive thing in terms of ETF loads is that um RAAS, registered investment advisors, who really represent um what I would consider more permanent capital and patient capital, they're actually um they sold much less than than hedge funds and the like in Q1, but they're up 20% year-over-year in terms of their ETF holdings alone. Right? So, I think what we're seeing in ETFs is a rotation out of fast capital and into more long-term aligned capital. It's kind of like a a cleansing of the holder base of ETFs, which is amazing. Um, and the point to make on that, I mean, I'm not sure how quickly this will go out, but in July to date, uh, I'm saying this on the 20th, uh, we've had $200 million in net inflows, and that's even accounting for, uh, on the unlucky day of the 13th, the CPI shock uh, outflows, which is about 420 million, I think, something like that. So, we've really been resilient in July. uh and it's starting to see I think a shift in um in trend there. So I guess yeah the point to make is that it it's not that June was a loss of faith in flows. I actually think it's just shifted exposure from uh those who are trying to extract to those who are more long-term minded. Um so that's one of the things that feeds into this um compression cycle. Um another one is is just holder conviction. So the holder base has fundamentally changed this cycle than than last cycle. There's two alltime highs that I think are really going under the radar and people aren't talking about. So the first one is that long-term holders are at 15 million Bitcoin and like Jordan, you know, better than anyone. It's only 21 million Bitcoin. So 75% almost of the holders are long-term holders. Um which is very good. They've been it's incredible. They've been selling into been buying into the draw down. Um, but the other point to make is that a record high of 11 million Bitcoin is at a loss. Uh, and the important point to make here being that people aren't selling into the draw down or at least we're we're shifting from those traders and those um kind of extractors that I mentioned previously to more long-term aligned um um holder base who are willing to hold the asset through a draw down. Um why is that important?

[00:14:23]Well, it is more than just a point to say, hey, look how amazing this is. It actually tells us something about the future. Uh, which is that the liquid float is shrinking uh and it's moving from these tactical holders to um out of tradable supply to long-term holders. As I said, um it's a removal of what I would consider the marginal seller. Um and it's it's actually a removal of convexity uh on the um downside right so you have essentially deeper sorry shallower um draw downs because you have this smaller float but on the upside um I mean as soon as people start trying to buy in there's less float available um and I think it shows you on the upside that you're going to get a lot more complexity which is a really interesting setup to be in. So, sorry I spoke for a long time there, but to kind of I think we're we're nearing the bottom and we're seeing the flashes of of positivity.

[00:15:23]>> That's interesting. That's um but all I can think all I've got in my head is um I don't know why I always think of him whenever I think of like uh what it he says is it a supply squeeze or something. Adam back always goes on like whenever people show like the amount of Bitcoin on an exchange and like it's just slowly going down and down and down and I guess that kind of feeds into people are just then deciding okay I'm just going to hold my Bitcoin.

[00:15:56]Um do you think that comes or do you think this shift comes because I guess what you said there around we've got more institutions holding it for the long term but then do you think also like education has and credibility has really improved even over if you look over the last four years from the last bottom um it's totally different the players that are involved uh the credibility of Bitcoin um or the perceived like the narrative around it cuz what 2022 we had Celsius collapse, we had FTX, we had the environmental narrative was booming of it was boiling the oceans. Um whereas we don't really have much of that at the moment. Um, do you think that really like feeds into this whole that's why there's long-term holders and people are holding on to their Bitcoin?

[00:17:01]>> I think so. I think um I actually think that people in traditional finance are quite shocked at how Bitcoin's behaved um particularly [clears throat] over the last call it year to date with uncertainty in in on the micro front right um like I I kind of describe these I think of it as two different segments.

[00:17:19]You have fast money which is people trying to extract your traders, your hedge funds etc. And then you have people who believe in this asset and essentially like the uh the ultimate underlying Bitcoin thesis which is that it's a debasement hedge right um I think what has been really surprising for these people in traditional finance is that um as capital is flowed out of the um the extracted or the the short-term holders if you want to call them that into the AI trade prediction markets all of these other things um or even like you know we're getting the more hawkish Fred so potentially even more into into treasure etc. Um the other side, the long-term aligned ideology alliance side has really howled and propped us up. So the fact that we're only down 50% uh in this cycle is actually a huge positive.

[00:18:08]And I know that sounds bad, down 50%.

[00:18:11]But I mean these these guys in traditional finance are looking at previous cycles like I said and saying hang on a minute, you're still holding up even while all of this capital is chasing SpaceX and chasing the AI trade.

[00:18:21]That's actually surprising, impressive, and it it adds credibility. Um, I think you're totally right on the education side. You know, the Bitcoin Collective, everything we're doing with the with the network is fantastic. Uh, I think we've seen a lot of of education pop up around strategy because I think that strategy um came under a lot of fire and kind of had to quickly educate people about the asset. Um cuz then at the end of the day this whole structure is underpinned by Bitcoin which has been very positive. Um and also we have another they call it cycle under our books another four years which adds to um the credibility of the asset. So I think it it really has changed over the last 5 years.

[00:19:06]Even if we look at adoption to date, right? Um we've had spot ETFs again really important cuz suddenly you have um you have different banks and traditional finance who are able to go out and sell Bitcoin. Uh Black Rocket is up to 46 billion or something like that.

[00:19:25]Um it's I mean it kind of mitigated any access issues into Bitcoin and suddenly you get these um these larger um pools of capital which are invested in the asset. Great. Very good for our credibility. Um Morgan Stanley they launched the fund I think it was in April. Um they are going to take that out and put it in front of 16,000 raas.

[00:19:47]Incredible. That's shopping Bitcoin for us again. That's fantastic. Um JP Morgan I think they let they let they they now allow um their client to borrow against Bitcoin which is incredible considering five years ago I think Diamond said he'd sack anybody who traded Bitcoin. So what a right I mean that that alone could be a statement on how far we've come with Bitcoin. Um and then there's a couple of other more nuanced things. So the FASB um fair value accounting rule huge it changed the game. Um, I'm sure we'll talk about it later, but I think that Bitcoin treasury companies are pivotal for the Bitcoin thesis and the FASB fair value accounting will essentially unlocked treasury companies and and unlocked a few different doors for them just with the being able to mark Bitcoin to market. Um, and then like like you alluded to, I mean, we have sovereign wealth funds, we have US strategic reserve. Uh, I think that at the moment corporates are buying over two times the Bitcoin mind every year. Mhm.

[00:20:51]>> That kind of credibility, those things I just listed off, it changes the nature of of Bitcoin. It changes how people look at it. Um the perception is is really improving, which is why I think we're getting shallower draw downs and and people are are more interested in it.

[00:21:07]>> Yeah. And then there's something else that you so you've written like a awesome report um which we will go into um but there was a I pulled a sentence out of it or a section out of it and it was talking about [clears throat] the volatility but as we are going up. So it was talking about the price late last year.

[00:21:32]So, it was looking at, you correct me if I'm wrong, but it this is how I translated into my head, but it was looking at the volatility was dampening as we were getting closer to the all-time high, which is the first time that that's really happened.

[00:21:52]Could you could you talk about Could you talk about that? Maybe explain it better than I explain it.

[00:21:58]>> No, of course. And I I'm glad you brought it up. It's a really counterintuitive point, right? um you would expect with more um speculation that bull would go through the roof. I think the the the important thing to introduce here is that uh volatility is a capital charge on holding Bitcoin, right? Um we've historically had very high level levels of Bitcoin and a lot of investors are not comfortable uh holding an asset that swings around in price that much. Um I think that's actually another good point for this cycle which is currently realized V is about 40%. still incredibly high, but previous cycles in bears, we've had over 80% realized fall. So, it really swings on on quite um small news um or even like thin liquidity flows, right? Um I think that Sailor has said uh and maybe don't quote me on this, I'm pretty sure he said that he thinks long-term realized bowl is going to go to 21%. I think that might just be a nice 21 me for him. [laughter] But the point being that the volatility is compressed even like imply even implied volatility is right now I think it's at 12 month lows or 7 month low something like that which is great. Um now the point to make on that is that which I think is the one I was making in the report is that uh reducing volatility in the long term widens the buyer base and the reason for that is like I said volatility is this capital charge on holding Bitcoin. Um and it makes investors uneasy. Uh but it fundamentally drives position sizing. Uh it drives risk budgets, capital treatments. um how mandates view it etc. A more risky um asset or higher volume asset is not going to be allowed into certain um allocations of capital. Now [snorts] the good news is that this is compressing and it's in a a long-term compression trend. So it now can be brought into mandates and capital rules that was previously gated from. I'm not suggesting that tomorrow um you know insurance firms are going to change their mandate and bring in Bitcoin. I mean more the trend over time is very positive and this is the kind of thing that gets the asset um eligibility into being collateral and certain different types of things. Um the cost obviously is convexity. You're not going to get these huge moonshots or at least less of them than we used to have the 2018 um recovery um these kind of these kind of price actions. But the way that I see it is kind of the price that you pay for adoption of the asset or the introduction of institutional capital is lower which is good and less moonshots.

[00:24:44]Um now why is all compressing? Uh it's a number of different things. I mean like we are seeing in this market lower volumes. Um so that's just natural. Um but the point to make is this uh influx of capital influx of institutional capital um particularly in ETFs which we're actually seeing um deepening deepening um kind of plus or minus 2% spreads on on centralized exchanges etc which all leads to that lower bowl and it's it's just a m maturation of Bitcoin as an asset um which we think is incredibly positive.

[00:25:24]>> Yeah. No, that makes total sense. Um, so moving on, let's move on to the report. We've talked about it a little bit and then we'll move on to the treasuries as well, we're moving on to the treasuries right now. Um, but what sparked you to write the report um in the first place? um because it's a report around the digital asset treasuries um in Europe.

[00:25:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. What you >> what's it? Good question. So um I mean I started looking at Bitcoin treasure companies about a year ago. I released a report. A colleague at QP came to me and said I think that these these structures look really interesting. It was around the time when Mabs were flying up to five times like everyone was really questioning the strategies. And I'll be honest, Jordan, I came at it with a very skeptical view. I mean, essentially, we went in to write this piece which was, you know, let's let's find a hole here and let's take these down and let's suggest why they're not going to um work long term. Um that report was really interesting. We did a lot of work and I came away from it thinking I think these are actually quite sound structures and I think that I could feel a personal thesis forming uh on the basis of big contracted companies. Um and maybe I could maybe I could actually just introduce that thesis now before we get into why we wrote about the European one. Okay. I mean, for me, I think that um the end game for Bitcoin is not people holding it um like myself, yourself, buying it and holding it in cold storage. For me, the endgame for Bitcoin and the thing that I get most excited about is the whole financial system being built on top of Bitcoin as a reserve asset, as a as a base, a dig store of value. That's ultimately the way that I see the asset. um that's the thesis I have and until that gets invalidated that's kind of the path that I want to move down or at least uh look to different companies that are trying to move down that. I think it comes in three phases. So the first phase um is allowing people to hold and own Bitcoin and we we're really there at the moment.

[00:27:37]I mean we've made huge strides. We've come from self custody to centralized exchanges allowing you to hold Bitcoin all the way to ETF which solve the um solve the allocation issue mostly for large institutions. Obviously there's mandate constraints but but really we we've got that nailed down and that's where we are. The second piece um is when Bitcoin becomes collateral. So an asset that um the system can lend against can utilize can rehypothecate.

[00:28:11]Um and that's where digital credit comes in. Uh essentially the the instrument issue by bit trading companies and we'll get into that and define it in a second.

[00:28:19]Um but that's just starting. That's the second phase. That's just starting. And then the third phase which is ultimately like the end game, the end goal is when Bitcoin becomes the the bedrock of the whole system, the financial reserve, what gold used to be when we were on the gold standard. Um, and this isn't this is really not an original thesis. In 2010, how Finny wrote on a Bitcoin forum that he believed that the ultimate fate um of Bitcoin was to be highowered money um that sited collateral for banks who issue digital cash, right? That's exactly a Bitcoin transit company. Um Eves uh Chafati came on and said a very similar thing on your podcast, right? I thought it was a great episode. um this is now like a reality with digital credit. I think that was a year ago.

[00:29:11]Since then, uh I mean since June 2025 when when Staty brought out St. um and that for me is why digital credit and and Bitcoin treasury companies the issuers is the pinnacle um for the Bitcoin thesis. Um, you know, owning Bitcoin is only stomachable for those who want to hold who want exposure to the volatility. That's not many people.

[00:29:38]Uh, the largest pools of capital in the world, insurance firms, pension funds, they don't want to hold that volatile asset, but they may, if they could, in the future, I'm sure we'll get into this, want to hold a stable or targeting stable asset that is high yield and backed by Bitcoin. Um, that's when Bitcoin becomes this reserve asset. So that's why Bitcoin treasuries are the most fascinating thing and what I think kind of unlocks the whole Bitcoin thesis. Incredible. Now to come back to your original question, uh why did we write the report? Well, I wrote it in collaboration with Tomato web company uh the largest UK Bitcoin Treasury company um and the Bitcoin Treasuries uh conference. We did we released this report at their first conference in um in Bristol where I met you joining. Um and the reason was I mean I was kind of talking to guys at Smarter Web and we were mingling over the fact that most of the research that comes out is really targeted around the US particularly strategy also strive um maybe some coverage elsewhere in the world with Meta Planet etc. Um, but not many people are talking about Europe. And the reason for that is Europe's small. It has nuances. It doesn't have digital credit.

[00:30:51]Um, but there are some incredibly exciting things happening and we kind of saw that when we released the the report and we wanted to get out there and and introduce the European side of this um to to everybody who's looking at this space.

[00:31:06]Yeah, there's a good picture of the space here as well cuz it is Oh, not overlooked, but America takes the limelight a lot of the time. I mean, that's why we did the conference and stuff like that, cuz we're like, let's bring something, let's do something in the UK and uh for Europe. So, yeah, it was nice to actually see like that concentrated on um all of these companies, which is really nice. Here's how change usually happens. A handful of early movers [music] start doing something quietly. Then a few more join.

[00:31:45]Then it becomes impossible to ignore.

[00:31:48]That's exactly what's [music] happening with Bitcoin in UK business right now.

[00:31:53]And the businesses moving early are turning it into a genuine competitive advantage over everyone who waits. The Bitcoin business network exists [music] to bring those people together. From solo founders to companies with hundreds of staff, it's a [music] place to network, learn, and become a collective voice that [music] can genuinely shape the future of Bitcoin in this country.

[00:32:20]If you're a UK business [music] owner, entrepreneur, or interested in getting Bitcoin in your business, go check out what we're building with the Bitcoin [music] Business Network. Right, let's get back to the episode. I've got I'm there's two paths I could go down here. [laughter] I just want to ask this question first is what do you say to people that think um or more uh go down the path of Bitcoin could be money one day? Um because or do you see I don't know how to phrase this. Um like I think that bitcoin at some point when volatility has dropped like could be that uh global currency. Um, but there is going to be a massive like massive period of we're just going to have it as I believe a reserve currency the same as what you're outlining there. Um, but I see the end goal as slightly different. Um, who knows how it's going to end or how what that end goal is. But what's your views on those two different things of having bit keeping Bitcoin as like that base reserve global currency and then building that credit on top versus the world would a very different world it would have to be um for Bitcoin to be that that currency. What's your thoughts on those two?

[00:33:59]Yeah, it's it's a really good question because I'm sure um as you have I spent a lot of time thinking it over and trying to understand like where I personally fall on it. Um so I think we've got a long way to go until Bitcoin volatility compresses to a point where it's similar to gold's volatility.

[00:34:21]um that it's it will come with adoption and there's a few different things I'm looking at in terms of what adoption could look like. Um but ultimately we need um larger pools of capital to have access to Bitcoin or some indirect access to Bitcoin before the volatility dumps. In the meantime, uh the Bitcoin treasury model is a great way to structure it because you have if you think of the capital structure in two sides, it's not always as simple, but uh the common equity and then the um digital credit. Uh the common equity will take the volatility exposure so that the digital credit can have this more stable asset and they have a yield which is part of the debasement trade, but the common equity gets paid for the remainder and the volatility. That's how I think about it. Um that's for me at the moment is really the only way that this can be structured until that ball goes. Uh but to answer your question because I think it's a really interesting one on what happens like let's play this out. Bitcoin volatility is massively reduced. Why don't we just use Bitcoin for everything? Why don't we have this drink that I've just bought priced in s right? Um so I subscribed to and it's funny going back to the Eve's um podcast again. In that podcast he held up a book. I have it. I'm not going to do it again. It probably be the first time some the same book had been held up twice on but he held up a book which is uh the denationalization of money by um uh Hayek.

[00:35:48]>> Yeah. He um in that book makes an argument that money um in its current form with central banks is essentially a monopoly. And the reason that we've got into this issue with uh debasement and money printing is because there's not I mean there's there's a lot of different reasons but one of the main ones is a lack of competition um a monopoly over um financial decisions around what these central banks can do um and a lack of choice for consumers in terms of um where they can take their money and what they can pay for it. Now if you look at the model that's been created around digital credit you essentially have free competition. Uh you have strategy and strive in the US who have spun up stretch and sata. Um you then have actually a smaller Swedish company who's spinning it out today. They're launching their new professional first in Europe.

[00:36:43]>> Wow.

[00:36:43]>> Um very very small. They're called the Bitcoin I think they're called the Bitcoin Treasury Company. Very on the nose but impressive. But the point I'm making is you get three or four um different options of digital credit. Uh hopefully we'll have more in Europe soon. Before you know it, you're going to have five or 10 different versions of digital credit or money if you like which are backed by Bitcoin. Now I personally believe and it this is an ideological thing that competition in money and the ability to move freely between money um keeps those uh who issued the money or the credit um accountable [clears throat] and it keeps them from doing anything silly that blows themselves up. I actually think the transparency you have in a Bitcoin treasury company you can see the end of everything um is totally different to a central bank. I mean, if we applied the same metrics that we do from treasury companies to central banks, it's insane. Like, we'd say, okay, how how much reserve do you have back in your credit that you can't personally print? And the answer to that, Bank of England, like 0%. Because none of the gold's on their balance sheet. The Fed, I think, if we're marking their gold to market, it's about 42%. The European Central Bank is slightly better. I think it's about 79%.

[00:37:56]But all these big treasury companies are five times over collateralized. Anyway, I'm getting that's a bit of a tangent, but you get the point I'm making. I think that competition between money uh is good for the end user. Uh it results in prudent uh reserve practice and management. It results in prudent um yields. I mean, you don't have a rate um that's getting announced by a central bank anymore. You have a rate. Okay, fine. It's at the discretion of strategy maybe, but the market's really going to tell you where to go on a regular basis.

[00:38:27]Um, so I'm very much of the free market competition on the money side, which is why I think that Bitcoin personally won't be the money. I think money backed by Bitcoin makes much more sense from from a competition.

[00:38:42]>> Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, I love hearing the different cuz the thing is we don't know [laughter] what's going to happen. I love how this evolves and like right we all agree that this is the best thing if like it's it's plausible that it can become money because we can transact with it unlike gold um where it's very difficult but then like we're in the world today we're so used to having um like that credit on top and yeah it's just it's very I love hearing all the different views on it.

[00:39:23]>> Um, >> don't get me wrong, I still think like even if we had these digital credits, you could definitely still have sats moving.

[00:39:30]>> This is the thing >> digital gold, right? Like you can move it so freely. I think if you could hold gold and things were priced in gold, would people use it? No. It's a bit clunky. Um, but there's nothing stopping Bitcoin in that regard. So, and maybe you get a hybrid. Who knows?

[00:39:45]>> Or maybe come cheaper and we'll depart with it. Hopefully that's [laughter] >> um sticking on strategy and then we're going to move more closer to home. Um strategy, what's your take on uh so a few weeks ago they sold um a decent amount of Bitcoin after saying that they were never going to sell. And what's your what's your take on that? is that my view on it is that they're doing it to um please the S&P committee um to show that they can buy and sell and how liquid it is. Um what's your take on why why they've done that?

[00:40:34]>> Mhm. Yeah, it it was it certainly caused ripples across um the kind of Bitcoin space. even just the whole crypto space seemed to turn into um capital structure analysts overnight. So it was [laughter] it was a really interesting one. Um so I don't know. Look, I think the really important thing to point to is that this isn't a solveny issue and this isn't a question of solveny. It's a question of liquidity, right? So um everybody who started screaming, you know, bit strategy in a death spiral, I think we're they they don't understand the difference between liquidity and tooly.

[00:41:14]That's the first point to make. Now, the other point to make is they only sold 0.4% of their Bitcoin. I think 3,588 Bitcoin, something like that. Um, very, very small amount. And I think they sold it for three reasons. Um, the first of which is dividend coverage, right? Um, what we need to understand really is that perpetual preferred while the common equity ATM was turned off. Um and um that was really one of the main uh fundraising sources for them. Um when Stretch came in, they raised billions of dollars through this product and it's it's now like one of their most important fundraising uh tools. They have to protect it and the market was screaming at them quite rightly that they needed some dividend coverage. Um so I I it made complete sense to me why they would protect that amazing like star player for their team. Um now at the time that they sold that uh it would not have been um a good idea to sell common equity. I know they've done it since. So it actually you know the market changes quite quickly but at the time it wouldn't it would have been essentially dilutive to to sell common equity to fund uh dividends. Also the actual stretch product itself was trading under par so they couldn't turn on that. So it's essentially the least costly way to fund dividends at that time and they needed to build up that bucket was to sell Bitcoin at a small amount. Now the second piece uh is that it was tax loss harvesting. So I I' was really really impressed when I learned this but Sashi doesn't hold all of its Bitcoin in in like one or a few different custodians. It holds it across a thousand different wallets each with a different cost basis. they had one wallet, let's call it for example, it won't be this simple, but one wallet with a cost basis of 125k, 126k pico top. Um, they can sell that now at a loss and then harvest that tax loss for for obvious reasons. Um, the third point, and I've kind of made this already, is that I think that it's a very big signal for the buyers of their digital credit. It essentially says we're not going to stiff you. we're going to we're essentially going to sell our own Bitcoin stack before we stiff you. And it's really important because they're saying they're signaling to these digital credit holders, we still want you and we're going to protect you even to the point of selling our Bitcoin. Uh which I think is probably the the biggest reason. Uh you obviously touched on, you know, um getting stretch rated is will be one of your biggest unlocks ever for digital credit. Um, one of the arguments is that um, in order for it to get rated, the underlying collateral Bitcoin has to be shown as liquid. Uh, you could make an argument that that's partly why they sold this Bitcoin. I don't think it's as big a argument as the others that I've listed, but I I can see the thought process behind it. Um, so yeah, it's it's an interesting one. I think it's actually a trivial um it's a trivial thing to discuss anyway. And the reason I say that is because Stratey has decades worth of uh dividend coverage in their asset Bitcoin. Um they're just proving that they're willing to sell it into cash. So they now I think have something like 24 months worth of coverage in cash alone and then 30 years in Bitcoin. I mean even if Bitcoin traded sideways for 30 years, they could pay everything out uh on their dividend. So that's fine. Um I like to look at a metric called the Christian um which is essentially at what point would the debt and the preferred be equal to the bitcoin nav.

[00:45:02]So what I'm saying there is when is there no value left for the common equity holders um and at which point you know if they sell an additional bitcoin they're suddenly just depleting the value that they've already sold for the debt in the press. Uh that metric is at $27,000. So if you think that bitcoin is going to draw down 60% roughly from here um in the next uh year or so then strategies uh has a problem. If you don't then um strategy doesn't have a um and I think that the final point to to state here and then we can kind of chat about it is that um it has decades worth of coverage but the best part is that it's only a very small kagger that's needed over those decades to make this a non a non-issue. The only risk here really is a huge huge draw down in Bitcoin, which by the way at that point, you know, we'd all be questioning the original thesis on Bitcoin. Uh I kind of laid out it's not going to be a reserve asset if it draws down to, you know, 90% of this cycle or whatever it would end up being. Um that would be a buck in the trending in invalidation in a thesis. So that's one of the ways it could um be a risky strategy. The other is this if we have a sustained decadel long trend where Bitcoin doesn't move and sell Bitcoin.

[00:46:25]Um do I think that's going to happen?

[00:46:28]Very very very unlikely. It only needs Bitcoin only needs a 3% kaga compound annual growth rate um for I think this is a stri but it probably applies to strategy too for them to be able to pay dividends inly uh by selling Bitcoin. So for me this is really trivial. It got overblown but I think it's really important because like I said everybody become a became a capital structure analyst understand not only Bitcoin more but they understand um companies way better because of this. So yeah it's it's classic. It's a market overreacting to something um relatively trivial but it's a good educator.

[00:47:08]>> Yeah 100 100%. And it's like look now people have forgotten that it really happened [laughter] >> like it's passed and um like this happened I feel like this happens every cycle I want to say in 2022 Sailor was getting slaughtered as well um for his move and then look at him in 2024 um into 2025 and now it's just a Bitcoin draw down and then all right let's let's come back to this in a year or 2 years time and see where the lay of the land is now that they've got this uh new mechanism the iPhone moment um whatever you want to uh call it.

[00:47:58]So I want to bring it back closer. That was a brilliant way better analyze than me. [laughter] I was one of those just like cuz I just when things like this happen I I don't think much of it because I'm like right okay well we've just seen this before it's just people reacting to a Bitcoin draw down and a company built on Bitcoin drawing down um and so then it's just so interesting to see everyone uh freak out [laughter] you know I mean this is a problem I mean it's not necessarily it is a problem but it's not necessarily a ministic problem which is that you have major herd mentality when it comes to crypto. And if uh if there's one analyst out there who has a relatively big voice who doesn't like it, suddenly you're going to see that reflected back to you on your timeline in different newspapers. I mean, I'm I'm pretty sure Financial Times, The Economist, etc. all covering this, which is why I say it's a great like learning moment because lots of people will look at it and actually say, "Hold on, this is completely fine." Um, but yeah, it's it's funny how how much people compile Um, all right. Let's bring it closer to home. So, talk to me about like when are we going to see a pre here as well because I believe smarter web it looks like they're making moves towards that.

[00:49:23]I don't fully understand the RNS is going out. So, I need you to explain that. So [laughter] I so just to caveat this um I really hope we can get this episode out fast enough because I think that it's going to be announced within the next few days and it will be very telling. Uh hopefully I can call it if it doesn't matter if not [laughter] but yeah so look so I can if you don't mind I'll just uh give a little talk on why I think that digital credit is is so important for Europe and then I'll speak to um the fact that it's coming out or kind of has come out with the Bitcoin treasure company uh in Sweden. So if you look at the um cohort average in Europe for MNAB, the basic MNAB which is very very simple market capitalization of all the common equity divided by Bitcoin holdings uh trades at an average of 0.75 call it 25% discount. Now Europe has come under a lot of fire because people analysts I've spoken to have said why would we touch that? why we touched that when the US is performing well. Um, they obviously have digital credit which really plays into this. Um, and then other people have said uh particularly Europeans and shareholders of the companies. These look so cheap. They're all trading at a 25% discount. I'm buying Bitcoin, you know, $100 worth of Bitcoin for $75. Now, I think there's a bit of a mirage going on in Europe. And I think this is something people don't understand. It's important to explain.

[00:50:59]So the reason you have them trading at a 0.75x basic mnav is there's a dilution margin um in Europe because we didn't have access to um a [clears throat] digital credit product or perpetual preferred instrument um and we have kind of shallow equity markets and demand for these kind of products relative to the US. We obviously did get a lot of ATM harvesting which is brought in a reasonable amount of Bitcoin but these are very small products. Smarter web's about 200 million pounds worth of Bitcoin uh similar for Capital B. I mean that's kind of the threshold in Europe versus billions in in uh the US. Um so we're kind of capital constrained and what that led these European Bitcoin Treasury companies to do in order to accumulate Bitcoin is to innovate and I think that they deserve props for this.

[00:51:52]Um, but they've issued convertible debt, very similar to what Strat has done, but they've issued really exciting convertible debt. Capital B issued Bitcoin denominated convertible debt. I think Valentine and the team over there and Alexander have done a really great job with that. Smarter Web did a similar thing that convert converts in August, so in a few weeks. Um, but they also had to push into credit line. So, for example, Smart Web has a I think it's 30 million pound credit line facility with Coinbase. is straight lending. They're borrowing capital to buy Bitcoin. They have to pay it back. There's a rate there's a an interest rate on that. And the reason I'm saying all of this is their innovation, the convertible debt and the credit lines are uh senior claims within their capital stack and it's debt uh that sits within that capital stack above the common equity. Um and that's why the um the kind of discount in basic MNAB hides a lot of things. What you really want to look at is the fully diluted enterprise value MNAB. Uh which and I don't know that's a lot of words but basically it's you could have to unpack that. Sorry. It's basically the market capitalization like beta ignores the debt and theft and and all of that stuff. This one says, "Hey, they're actually in the capital attack. We should look at those because it affects the value of the equity or how much Bitcoin that equity has a claim on theoretically in the queue." [snorts] Um, so fully diluted enterprise valuation there, it's market capitalization plus the debt plus any press, which the US guys will have minus cash divided by um the Bitcoin. And when you do that, there's an average across the cohort. It's at par. It's like 1 to 1.1x.

[00:53:43]Now, the point that I'm really trying to make is that these European companies are not at a deep discount. In fact, what you're seeing is that there's no premium and there's a lot of dilution through debt. Now, you could look at that as a skeptical analyst and say, well, that's a big negative. Uh, these things have debt and that's why they're trading at a discount. Um, and it makes them less attractive. Now what I would say as um as a positive analyst and optimistic analyst in this space is no the reason that they trade like that is because they haven't had access to this digital credit product that the US have had. Don't get me wrong the US have dilution as well. Strategy has about I think it's some maybe $7 billion worth of debt um sat in their capital structure and even like strife is senior to stretch the convers.

[00:54:36]So they have a similar problem but what they have is a perpetual preferred product where they can sell it accretively at $101 [clears throat] which they have been doing for a long time. Obviously that's shut now. Um it's closed but it was on for a long long time and they bought Bitcoin accretively with basically limited dilution in that capital stack [clears throat] in an increed manner. Um the optimistic analyst would look at Europe and say when they open the door to digital credit and they have a similar structure that discount that 25% discount is going to close. And for me that is like amplification on any price action you will get in um European Treasury companies. That is one of the most exciting things that could happen in this cohort because it takes it from a rounding error like a bit of a joke compared to the US because they're so underdeveloped to um structures that yes they've had to experiment to bring in Bitcoin. It's been innovative. It's interesting. But actually they can clean out those capital structures using this prep instrument in the same way that Strive did uh and have done and strategy are in the process of doing and they'll raise a lot more capital. Obviously the US is a smaller uh the Europe has smaller capital markets in the US but I mean on a relative basis. So that's why I think that digital credit is so exciting in Europe. It's going to change everything. The companies will have a new lever and investors I believe have a bit of a gap to close which would be very positive. Um so that's the context. And what's happening is that this week we've had probably the biggest development we've ever had on the European side in terms of Bitcoin because I see digital credit as the most exciting part of Bitcoin thesis. Um obviously we we need to pay attention to Bitcoin Treasury company today. They're launching the first press in Europe. It's brilliant but it's small size. It's not on the main market. Um and I I don't see it making too many waves for now. Um it's a it's impressive but it's not um going to change the face of European Bitcoin trading company landscape. What will uh is what smarter web company are doing. So for those of you who uh don't know and please Jordan stop me if this gets a bit too complicated and I can break it all down but I'm still with you still. [laughter] >> So the UK uh and Smarter Web have not been able to issue a P today and that's a legal blocker. It comes from an inability to pay dividends. Now, they could issue a prep if it had 0% dividend. Nobody would buy it, by the way. No one. Uh but they can't they couldn't legally pay dividends. And the reason for that is that under the UK companies act to pay dividends, you have to pay it from distributable profits or distributable reserves. You know, they profits become reserves. Um and Smarter Web had none. Uh, a part of that is because they have a 70 million pound book loss on their Bitcoin. I.e. they bought it an average price of 80K, it's now drawn down. They have that book value loss. Um, they also have legal fees that they paid for listings and stuff like that. Um, and also they're not selling any Bitcoin. That would kind of be counterintuitive for somebody who doesn't have a preferent dividend to pay. say um yeah they they have no way of paying the dividend till date. Um they did have a secret weapon up their sleeve which is called the share premium pot. Now, as everyone will know, especially smarter web investors, when they ran up to a 20 time MNAP or whatever it was, crazy last year, um they turned on the common equity ATM issue, which was essentially is harvesting that uh MNAP premium to buy Bitcoin at an accretive um uh price for their shareholders. So, not diluting. Um but when they do that the cash goes into a special pot called the share premium pot which sits on your um balance sheet.

[00:58:41]Now share premium comes from the difference between what's known as um the nominal value of a share. Um so again for those of you who aren't aware when you issue a share um when you create it technically has a nominal value of about let's call it a penny for argument sake but it's usually even lower. It's like hundth of a penny. um when they issue new equity and sell it for let's say two pound I'm not sure where smart web prices today say they sell it for2 the difference between that two pound and one p the 199 goes into the share premium pot now they sold a lot of common equity ATM I think they had 210 million in that share premium pot now web thought I think we can probably get that converted into distributual reserves in order to do so they needed legal permission. So they went to high court uh last week on the 14th of July and got approval to cancel that share premium pot. Um which means after a few things, paying off any of the debt, sorry, not debt, the losses, they paid off the 70 mil losses, they paid off the listing fee losses. After they've done that, which is all um on the books by the way, it's not literal.

[00:59:58]Um they have about£120 million pounds left over which is a pot from which they can pay dividends. Fantastic. They got approval uh on the 14th of July. The only thing that's stopping it coming into fruition is that they need to register. Jordan, I would be so surprised if they haven't registered by now. They probably had that document ready to go. I would be so surprised if they haven't registered by now, which means that technically they can issue a perpetual preferred product. they can issue digital credit in Europe.

[01:00:29]Absolutely amazing. It's the single biggest, it will be the single biggest analog uh in the European Treasury space to date. Um we can disc I've done loads of analysis on how big I think it's going to be the impact etc. So we can discuss that but I just want to make it clear that this thing should be coming out if not this week and I know they have an announcement pinned for two days time. I think that's probably it. If not this week, this will be coming out in the next few weeks or months. Um, but is it going to happen? The doors are all open. Digital credits coming to Europe.

[01:01:02]Wow. I Yeah, I didn't realize that. That was such a good way of [laughter] explaining it. Like I had no idea like that's what how it all was working in the background. Um, uh, yeah. If we could, can we go quickly go through like how big you think it'll be? Because obviously it surely it's then tied to well, you've got the 120 million, but then surely it has to be tied to the amount of Bitcoin that they've actually got as well, the size of what it can be. Um, can you talk through that? Like I don't fully understand it.

[01:01:44]>> No, of course. Absolutely. So, um, it's really good point you made because when I was first thinking through it, I'll tell you the exact way I thought through it. So, I started by saying [clears throat] this is incredible, like super simple math. Um, let's say they've got 120 million to pay dividends from.

[01:02:02]If you assume that they want 2 years worth of coverage, then they can afford to pay 60 million every year. Uh, and then if you like use whole numbers, say that it's a 10% dividend, oh my god, they can issue£600 million worth of digital credit. That's incredible.

[01:02:17]That's amazing. Until you realize that actually they only have 200 million worth of Bitcoin. That's three times the Bitcoin they hold. Never going to happen. Not the right way to think through it at all. Um, I think the other way to think through it is to back out from um, collateralization.

[01:02:34]Strategy and Strive are well sassy is the one that I'd mostly focus on. Five times over collateralized relative to its stressolding and I think that's a really good metric and marker that Europe can kind of learn from. There's lots of things that Europe can learn from the US in their crafts. Um but one of them is kind of what the market demands from an overcratization perspective. Now if you back out let's say it's 200 mil that they have. Um if you back out from that it looks like they could issue about 20 million pounds worth perhaps in their first issuance.

[01:03:08]Um the caveat is that obviously the um the debt that I spoke about earlier the um credit fatilities and the converts um I would imagine you probably account for those before you start doing them the calculation if they you know they're relatively small but let's say it's slightly less than 20 million because you have to facilitate before you divide it by five um but I think the first issue will be about 20 million.

[01:03:34]Now, obviously, that's a kind of a rolling um capital raising instrument, assuming it trades at par, and there's lots of different things. I could speak for hours on how they could trade it part. We probably won't do that today, but um uh assuming that they're able to issue that whole 20 million, they then go and buy 20 million worth of um Bitcoin. By the way, they probably don't need to put together a special cash pop because they have the share premium, which is way more than they need, 120 mil out there. So they can pay dividend from there. They don't need to set aside money for cash. They buy an empty 20 million, they want it five times over collateral rate, they issue another 4 million worth of digital credit. they probably cycle through that um until we hit the next MNAV cycle runup which will be when the ATM turns on and then you get this amazing flywheel where the ATM feeds capacity for the press and and I think that's where it starts to get really exciting and you will grow to match the sizes of stri and I mean eventually strategy yes but Strive is probably to set sites on it's nice to see as I said we always talk about America they're doing this and that. It's nice to see that happening and coming to to Europe. Um, and a couple companies launching that. Um, which was nice. I've got one more question. Sorry, we've gone over time, but this has been so fascinating.

[01:04:59]>> That's actually fun. [laughter] Um, is there anything cuz I remember the fight that strategy had with the you mentioned it earlier the FASB like the accounting rules like Sailor had to get that changed before he like just went full whack into this and he put a lot of effort into getting that changed. I remember don't know when that was maybe like two 3 years ago. Um, is there is it the same in the UK and Europe or do we need does something need to change? Is there is that battle needing to happen here as well?

[01:05:40]>> Yeah, I'll be really honest with you, Jordan. I don't know. Um, I I don't want to make something up because that's fair. That's an accounting question.

[01:05:50]Um I'm sure that the so the unlock for sailor with the um fair value accounting rule um meaning that they could mark the bitcoin to market um kind of and enabled them to do certain things within the treasury company. I would imagine what the UK and potentially different parts of Europe are looking to do especially smarter web with press now uh means that they've got all of that sorted. Uh but I I really don't have uh anything to say on that beyond that. I I it's something to learn more on.

[01:06:24]>> Yeah, fair. Um yeah, it's just something I was thinking about and I wasn't I don't know the answer either. [laughter] >> I mean, now that you've asked me that, I need to learn that. So, I I'll send you a message afterwards and let you know.

[01:06:39]>> Nice. Um well, that's no that's been brilliant. that's um honestly given such a good picture of I mean like Bitcoin where Bitcoin is where the treasury landscape is and then bringing it closer to home of will we see when this goes out it might already be out that um prep who knows but as soon as it goes out I will be putting this out if it is this week uh so don't worry about that what last last prediction Last question.

[01:07:14]>> Yeah.

[01:07:14]>> What do you think it's going to be called?

[01:07:17]>> What do I think it's going to be called?

[01:07:20]That's bit of a fun one.

[01:07:22]>> That's a good question. I think there will be the word smarter in there somewhere. It'll be like the smarter prep or the smarter digital credit. I think I can imagine like knowing the team, I can imagine that they would like to play on that. So yeah, my call would probably be smarter prep.

[01:07:40]>> What do you think? We'll wait and see.

[01:07:42]Uh, no, I think that's Yeah, knowing Andrew and the team, have a bit of not fun with it, but you like keep it in line and like with the company and it makes sense to have the smarter. Um, yeah, I I would be with you on that. The smarter prep. Um, because then it's quite nice cuz it's like it's a smart it is a smarter prep to >> Exactly. Okay, cool with that.

[01:08:11][laughter] >> Maybe we should just clip this and send it to him. Uh yeah, it's funny though cuz like the names the names are a bit all over the shape like um obviously you have stretch sata I I'm not really sure about the the convention behind them or like obviously stretch tied into the strat naming convention but it's funny if you think about the thesis we have and it's quite a serious and important thesis about fixing money and then the money that we're releasing is called stretch and and the smarter play or whatever. It just seems like um quite an unserious way to do it.

[01:08:47]>> I like it's because I feel like it's uh the Bitcoin community like almost infiltrating a little bit. That's our way of doing it cuz we've lived off memes and uh everything for so long and it's okay.

[01:09:04]Well, we're here to funk [ __ ] up and like this is this is what we want.

[01:09:09]>> Yeah. It's so funny. Somebody called it like wizard or something like that.

[01:09:13]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's too far.

[01:09:18]>> Um, awesome. Well, we could honestly I reckon we could have gone on for two hours there because I've got so many more questions. So, we'll probably do this again.

[01:09:27]>> Um, [laughter] uh, but no, it was honestly awesome having you on. I'm very glad that we've done this and uh yeah, hopefully we'll if if there's announcement this week, I will put it out as soon as it as soon as it goes out. So yeah, thank you so much for coming on.

[01:09:44]>> No, thank you mate. I' I've really enjoyed chatting today and uh yeah, it's always a pleasure. So thank you for having me on.

[01:09:50]>> Awesome.