Revealed: The SA government owns over 6 000 homes | Minister Dean Macpherson

[00:00:01]Joining me on Conversations with Gabriel, the Minister of the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure, Dean McFersonson. Hello, Dean. Great to have you on.

[00:00:10]>> Thanks, Gabriel. It's uh good to be with you and good to be with the the Common Sense.

[00:00:15]So Dean, what prompted me to extend this invitation was this very interesting statement that the you have just released about doing a comprehensive investigation of the over 6,000 residential properties owned by the Department of Public Works and Infrastructure.

[00:00:36]Why are you doing this investigation?

[00:00:38]>> Uh well, good question. and uh you know we have a an extensive portfolio of around 88,000 properties and 5 million hectares of land. So notionally we're the largest landlord in the country. Uh and for some time I've contemplated about what do we actually do with all of those um assets and I often say the difference between myself and Growth Point. Growth Point owns a lot less but they make a lot more money than we do.

[00:01:09]Um and so you know understanding that portfolio is critically important and there's obviously varying aspects to that and one of them is the residential uh component which uh was actually in response to a question that I was asked in parliament and uh you know the more granular detail became available to us.

[00:01:31]Um, and when I looked at it and I sat down with my team, I just said, you know, this is uh quite something that we own over 6,000 residential units that uh government officials are living in for which they already receive a housing allowance in their structured um salary package. Uh we then are obviously responsible for the maintenance, the water, the electricity.

[00:01:58]um and just 108 of those uh cost 40 million rand a a year. So we're still trying to quantify the entire uh value of that. So we are losing money at an incredible rate maintaining residential properties for people that get a housing allowance to live in a house for uh for which they pay probably little to nothing for. So, so, so that really what took us down the rabbit hole and uh I've then said to the director general that we need to fully uh understand how big this problem is so that we can then start making some uh decisions about is there a justified need and I can't discount that there may be a justified need um and where there isn't an operational need then let's dispose of them get them off of our books and use that money for better purposes.

[00:02:53]>> What properties does the department own and why this focus now on the kind of residential properties?

[00:03:02]Well, you know, one of the key things I've sought to do, Gabriel, is say, uh, if the department is a effectively an asset manager, which growth point is, we've got to get ourselves onto a commercial footing, so that we stop spending 6 billion rand a year on private leases. And that's the great irony um of the department is we own empty buildings and we lease uh uh buildings at the same time. two of those statements can't be true at the same time. So, um you know, uh the residential is is part of is a component of that. We then obviously have commercial buildings, land and and and other valuable assets in that. And my goal really is to unlock the value of those assets to say that the department doesn't have to own everything. We don't have to sell everything. that we've got to find a balance that says we want to retain the um uh the the valuable commercial assets um and then gear those for growth and development and for private sector um in investment and and so that's really what interests me in this residential component is that I don't believe that we should be you know the the landlord for uh you know for government officials. Um, as I said, there may be some instances where that is correct, but my my my gut instinct is is that, you know, 6,238 properties seems excessive, of which half of those are located just in case it in. So this morning, uh, on another news platform, they said, um, but you know, isn't it essential for government work? And my response is well what seat of government is in KZN that so many residential properties would need to be occupied by government officials. So um that we've had to dig this information out also uh tells me um that there may be more to the story than we fully conceptualize at the moment. But of course we will get to the bottom of it and then present those findings in due course.

[00:05:09]So I want to kind of take a step back because it's interesting what you're saying there and the point you make at the end I think is crucial that you are the minister of the department of public works and infrastructure the guy who's in charge of the you know nominally in charge of all of this and you don't have full information about everything that your department owns right um and this is two years into the job which I can imagine you you probably know a lot more now than when you first started. So, what has it been like? What was what was it like as you entered the uh the ministry? And what has it been like being the minister of this department?

[00:05:50]>> It's like an Easter egg hunt. You know, when you start, you can't uh you you you see a couple of things in the trees and someone shouting hot and cold as you get closer or further away, but there's there's always something that's that you don't know and that you can't see.

[00:06:07]Um and and and that's kind of what it's been like is that you know we've had to find our way through a lot of things.

[00:06:14]We've had to force our way through a lot of things and there's been a lot of conflict um in in that because um if there's one thing I've understood very clearly that there's a lot of vested interests both internally and externally um in this department. I mean, let's not forget it was public works, uh, you know, that famously tried to redefine a swimming pool as a firepool um, uh, in in En in Incandler and and was very happy to pay for that, no questions asked. And when you start to answer those questions, you make yourself very unpopular very quickly.

[00:06:49]Uh, and you know, you also only know what you know, uh, Gabriel. And so we've had to learn a lot. We've had to, uh, you know, we continue to find new things. um as we go along but it's how you respond to that uh that's important.

[00:07:04]So you know you can either say oh well you know it's not worth the aggravation of trying to understand this problem um or you can want to understand it and then most importantly do something uh um uh about it. And so what then are the kind of the things that you want to do your main objectives as the the minister of department the the department?

[00:07:28]Well, you you you know, we're structured in a way and that there's a a key uh a few key points. I think the first thing that I'm absolutely passionate about is making sure that we become a good custodian um of the assets that we own, that they cannot just rot, that they cannot become a blight in a community.

[00:07:49]Um and that we also have to rationalize those assets. You know, we own vast tracks of land in inner city areas that should be used for redevelopment of social and mixed use housing. I mean, that is patently obvious, but government just has for the longest time refused to relinquish that land. I want to do uh something about that. We have uh this massive leasing portfolio that I'm determined uh to to cut down. Um and some of our work has already uh borne fruit in that and that you know uh uh some of the leases that were highly questionable uh uh you know have uh at least now have a lot more oversight so that those uh either uh uh mistakes or deliberate interventions don't take place um anymore. We want to uh you know cut out the political patronage that has uh uh been the hallmark of the expanded public works program for the longest time and actually refocus that to become skills long-term skills that create pathways to long employment. And then on the infrastructure side which is the other side of the mandate while we may not be the implementing agent of infrastructure projects you know we want to better coordinate infrastructure planning uh and delivery so that we start to get value for money and you may have seen two or three weeks ago we released some data that showed that only one in six government tenders are actually being awarded in the infrastructure space which is devastating for the country because you you you know we need to make sure that we uh in in improve that because the money is there but now we're not uh uh uh delivering those uh outcomes. Uh and so we're working with uh departments and entities to make sure that we can better that rate uh of success so that we can get uh that infrastructure moving. So, it's a vast portfolio, a lot of moving parts. Um, and and one that I think has been synonymous for all uh I should say probably infamous for all the wrong reasons, but which we think actually is critical to the success of our country and that's why we're so determined to to get it right.

[00:10:10]So I must ask you about that [clears throat] infamy because it comes from uh its association with uh the kind of corruption uh that you know everyone in South Africa is familiar with and this is a question that I asked a colleague of a party colleague of yours uh who's running for the mayoralty of Johannesburg which is what do you think are you not scared about your personal safety?

[00:10:39]in you know kind of coming between uh those who are you know the the kind of corrupt patronage networks and the people who uh try to extract from them.

[00:10:50]Are you has there been any kind of threat against you personally because of the work that you're doing to try and clamp down on your department's ille uh infamy?

[00:11:02]Look, if we wanted to uh have a softer life, I probably would have gone to work for a church or an NGO where there's uh less politics and less threats. Um but this is what we put our hand up for.

[00:11:17]This is what our party sent us to do. Um and regrettably, it does come with the territory. And yes, there have been threats uh to my life. uh they intercepted um uh WhatsApp chats where they were plotting my demise. Um but you know um I can sit at home in a ball of cotton wall and uh you know and not do anything and and and that's just not in my nature as well. My nature for better or worse is to confront problems head on um and uh and and to and to push until I get a breakthrough. Uh, and that, as I said, it makes you unpopular. It makes you a target. But you, you know, I don't know how long we'll be here for, but you know, we've got to push and push and push and, uh, and, uh, and get the job done. Uh, no matter what that cost is.

[00:12:10]Uh, and we have to put aside um, you know, the threats and we have to put aside the safety issues. Of course, we take them seriously, but uh, you can't allow it to paralyze you to the point of not actually getting anything done. And you know, I think that Helen as an individual has shown more than anyone that you know, you can't take no for an answer because that's always the default position in government is no. Uh and uh and and we don't accept that. We want outcomes. We want uh results. And and I think that in part we're starting to see that Gabriel that after two years I think that there's definite points of success that we can po that we can show.

[00:12:51]There's some stuff that has been harder than I uh would have realized. Uh but we're going to keep going until we get the outcomes that we want. And >> so a last kind of question about your that your time in uh in office as minister was just has there been anything that has surprised you or shocked you uh as the minister taking over this ministry?

[00:13:16]I'm not sure that you uh have enough time for me on your show, but you know, just I I I just I'm a can do person.

[00:13:25]That's my um that's the way I've been brought up. I I look for solutions, not look for problems. Um and I think that uh often people want to find reasons for something not to happen. Uh and and that's just not what I accept uh either in my business when I was in the private sector or or now. And so um you know the status quo is too widely accepted in government instead of actually coming with with a solution. And so um that has uh maybe not shocked me but it's really frustrated me and so getting people to understand that you know the status quo and and no is not acceptable. Um and also just how long it takes to do anything. I mean it's just an unending stream of committees of uh you know task teams and everyone is terrified to make a call. Everyone is terrified to um to make a decision and and I think that there's a number of reasons for that.

[00:14:32]And so empowering people to say I want you to make a decision even if it's a wrong decision we won't persecute you for it but for goodness sake just make the decision >> and I find that to be quite extraordinary that uh decision making is incredibly lengthy um uh if at all and so that's a culture that has to change in government but that's a a longer conversation I think of why that is so and we should be empowering people to make decision and not encouraging them to to drag it out for as long as possible so they don't actually have to come to that point of decision.

[00:15:08]>> So by the way from time to time [laughter] well thank you very thank you very much have you found that in your ministry itself have has they been accommodating to what you've been trying to push through or have you found that there has been this attempt to block and maybe thwart some of the goals that you have?

[00:15:29]Uh actually public works is one of the few ministries that have had a non-ANC person before me and that was in Patricia Dil who was the minister from 2019 to 2023.

[00:15:41]Uh look, let me say this. I don't care what party you come from. I don't care what you believe in or uh you know who you choose to go to bed with at night.

[00:15:51]It's completely irrelevant um to me. I just want you to do your job. uh and and that has been my message to uh to to everyone and where people don't do their job um they're going to get a lot of pressure and get a lot of questions from me. Uh some people have not been able to take that and they've left. Um, and you know, some people have wanted to interpret that as sort of, you know, trying to um, exert political pressure on people or trying to uh, persecute people because of where they come from and who they support. As I said, it's irrelevant to me. I just want you to do your job to do so honestly and fairly.

[00:16:33]And where people have done their jobs, they have received public praise um, from me. And again, I don't care where they come from. You know, if you do your job, you'll also get praise from me. Um, and and that's been my message to the department and will continue to to to be.

[00:16:50]What I do think has to be absolutely uh front and center going forward is that there is obviously a politicization of the civil service and uh and and I think that the one thing that the GNU maybe in time to come uh will assist South Africa is that uh um is that reduction in politicizing the civil service because the civil service will know that actually you know this election cycle you could have a DA a minister next time it could be party X or party Y >> and so you know the best judge of your job is is the outcomes in which you per in how you perform. So, I think that that is starting I can see that that is starting to hit home um with with people. And also, interestingly, Gabriel, I've had a lot of people that have come to me and just said, you know, uh we're really glad that you're here because you create an environment for us just to do our jobs without uh you know, sort of uh being expected to do this or to do that or to go to this rally or that rally. Um and and I think that that also gives people comfort. So, it's not easy. Trust me, it's it's not easy, but um it's something that is important to me uh in so far as creating an environment that people uh can just get on with their jobs regardless of who they want to support, who they want to be uh and uh you know, where they come from.

[00:18:18]Um and you are probably one of the more successful of the DA ministers um in within your portfolio. I mean this project itself what we talked about at the beginning if you're successful in it would be a remarkable achievement um not and you know and that's just one of the many things that you will have done in your time in office but there have been some mixed achievements from some of your other colleagues um and you might disagree with with me on that but I guess that's your job to do um but what would you say is the kind of difference between those who have found success in their new ministries and those who have found kind of struggle.

[00:19:04]I think let's be honest Gabriel all six uh ministries that we have uh taken on none of them have been easy and trust me when I say that you know we didn't get a book uh you know how to be a minister for dummies when we uh entered into office um in large parts we've had to find our way in how to do these things and it was very different from you know the city of Cape Town which is you know had 20 years worth of uh uh you know sort of muscle memory of good governance. Um so it doesn't matter who comes in there. The Western Cape is the same. So, so we were going into something that the party quite frankly uh didn't uh you know hadn't really contemplated to the fullest extent that it maybe should have and I think that we accept that. Uh and so you know everyone has in my view has done their best. I've made mistakes. I'll be the first person to say I've made mistakes. Others have made mistakes and others have done other things really well and I've done things really well. What I will say this, I think in 2029, whoever comes after me uh or after any of us is going to have a much better uh time of it because we are effectively doing something that no one has done uh within within 30 years. So I I don't think it's for me to determine who has been successful and who has not been successful. I think we have all had success in measure and we've all had things that we've done wrong in in measure. I I would be lying to you and your listeners and viewers if I said I got it all right um from uh from the beginning but we learn as we go along and we're doing something that quite frankly is novel. And you know the the big difference between this GNU and the one in 1994 to 96 was that the ANC had a majority then they actually didn't need anyone. Here they don't have a majority.

[00:21:10]Um and and and that makes it all the more difficult as well in some sense is that you still have a party that you know in time at times doesn't want to accept uh that it lost the election. I can tell you in my province of Quazulu Natal that you know the ANC went from 54 to 17%.

[00:21:31]I I don't see them governing any different in this m in this uh uh province or let alone where they will get decimated uh in in 4 months time. So it's such a difficult landscape. I'm sure that you and your panel uh will uh you know debate the issue whether we've done right or wrong but you know you know we'll all write books about it um at some point uh and and I think that there's a lot of lessons that we've learned. there's things we could have done better and there's things that we've done very well and maybe without you know blowing our own trumpet uh maybe the panel doesn't uh look fully into some of the successes that we do as opposed to some of the things that we've done wrong as well.

[00:22:20]>> What are the signal achievements the successes for you as uh Minister McFersonson you think? Well, I think from our side, you know, one of the big reforms that I promised was uh on EPWP that has gone 20 years without any reform at all. Uh we launched that reform agenda under working for infrastructure where we take people from 2 to 3 month training opportunities to between 8 and 10 months. Now, uh I'll be shortly uh issuing the new revised guidelines uh uh for EPWP. So that is a promise that I have fulfilled. We also said that we wanted >> So sorry Dean, what is EPWP exactly?

[00:23:03]>> So So it's the expanded public works program. So you know it's it's obviously a lifeline for millions of South Africans as a as a poverty the poverty alleviation uh scheme. And we've said that you know uh nothing is uh you know can just carry on in perpetuity. And so we said we want to we want to graduate that to actually a more skills-based uh uh runway towards a long-term employment. And so um that has now uh been done and we are rolling that out successfully. We also said that we wanted to reform the way in which public works operates that we want to become a commerciallydriven asset management uh uh uh you know department that uh cuts down on leasing and uses our assets for investment. And so we are currently working to establish the South African National Property Company which is effectively an investment vehicle for uh for our assets so that we can trade in them, dispose on them uh and and derive investment. And then on infrastructure, we've really said that we wanted to uh prioritize the work that Infrastructure South Africa does in local government and we've launched that program now where we are actually uh we've taken uh four municipalities as a pilot project that have budgets of roughly between 5 and 600 million rand. quite a controlled environment where we are able now to leverage 8.5 billion rand worth of private sector investment into those four municipalities which is unheard of in local government. So I mean I think that we've on the metrics we've done well we want to do more but it's also it's a it's an evolving story. It's a it's a story that in my view if we get the full 5 years will create an irreversible track for public works and infrastructure to become one of the central economic delivery units in this country that uh that we desperately need.

[00:25:02]>> Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today, Dean. It's been fascinating and all I can say is uh good luck in continuing the good work in the ministry.

[00:25:14]>> Thank you, Gabriel. It's uh I'm sorry it took so long to get uh on your show and with the common sense, but I'm really glad that we got to do it.