Did Tolkien Make Any Mistakes? Let's Find Out! - Part I (Is Bombadil or Treebeard Eldest & More)

[00:00:03][music] Hey everyone, yo here and I hope you all are doing well wherever you are in Middle Earth. Tolken's works as we know are grand, incredible and unlike anything else in past [music] or present fiction. I mean the amount of awe and wonder that we all feel when diving into Middle Earth is so immense and is probably the reason that you are watching videos like this one. I mean it's the reason I continue to make videos like this one. Truly, there's just so much depth and beauty in the Legendarium. [music] However, with any great piece of work, particularly one spanning decades, with multiple cycles of revisions, new ideas, and the passing of the author before his works could be wholly completed, there are bound to be mistakes. [music] So, in this video, and potentially other ones to come, if you guys like this video, I want to look at some of the possible mistakes uh or inconsistencies [music] that the wonderful authors and editors over at Tolken Gateway have compiled in their article titled Possible Inconsistencies in the Legendarium. It'll be linked in the description below. All credit to them for putting this together. But in this video, we're going to be looking at what they've listed out here um with love and understanding. not to discredit any of the wonderful parts of Tolken's Middle Earth, but to better understand Tolken's writing process, the world at large, and acknowledge that just like with anything else in life, there's bound to be some mistakes made here or there or to see if they are mistakes and we're or or if we're just like misinterpreting them, right? Um for Arda is still marred today and nothing is perfect in the lingering shadow of Melor. So, we're going to read through what they have here, and then I'm going to offer my thoughts. And honestly, at the end of each of them, I'm going to ask you guys if you agree with that, if there's something else that you would add. And uh yeah, just let me know in the comments below if you like this video and want to see a part two. So, my friends, thank you all so much for joining me today. Let's begin our tale on the potential mistakes or inconsistencies within Tolken's works.

[00:02:02]All right, let's start with some possible mistakes [music] regarding characters. So let's start off with Tom Bombadil and Treebard being both called the eldest. This is also the the first one in that Tolken gateway article. So both Tom Bombadil and Treebard are referred to as the eldest being in Middle Earth. Tom says that about himself and Eland mentions that the elves knew Tom as oldest and fatherless.

[00:02:24]They also, you know, have their own name for him. I Wayne Benador, I believe. Uh however, Gandalf tells Theodin that Treebard is the oldest of all living things and Kellibborn addresses Treebard as eldest. So the possible explanation here that Tolken gateway provides is that maybe Tom is not alive as Treebeard is. And on this subject, Gandalf, Sauron, and Sauron have existed far longer than Treebeard as they are my but have not been alive embodied physically as long. So here's my issue with this explanation too [music] is that well even if Tom is regarded as some higher being whether one of the mayar valor Uruvatar himself one of you know a member of the music or an offspring of the music of the Anor whatever it is even then I don't think he's the eldest right he's not the eldest in Middle Earth or in existence obviously because I was before anyone um unless he himself is But so so that eliminates that. But even saying like Tom Bombadil is the oldest higher being in Middle Earth, that's also probably not true because the Valor, the Inure came to Arda to shape the world as it would be. Um, and unless like the moment that the world spawned in before the Valor got there, uh, Tom Bombadil spawned in too, I I don't see how he could be the oldest higher being in Middle Earth either. Now, as far as TreeBard goes, I know it was a big like the ants were created as a response to the dwarves being created, right? Owlet created the dwarves. Yavana, his wife, um, made the ants in response to the dwarves. However, Ouvatar did not want the dwarves to awaken before the elves.

[00:04:09]So, they were put to sleep. [music] Meaning that I think the elves were still awakened first before even the ants. And also, I mean, there's this idea that the the elves showed the ants how to speak and kind of woke them up from their slumber in a way, [music] uh, if I recall. Let me check that really fast. Okay, so it seems like the ants might be older than the elves, at least as far as Middleear goes, but they were not truly like conscious or like aware until the elves helped them get there.

[00:04:37]Um, but they might have been there before. Regardless of this though, I I still don't even know if that is possible. if the oldest ant tree beard most likely is older than the oldest elf potentially though again maybe they maybe Treebeard was there before the elves were but I also just think I don't know comparing Tom to Treebard in this way who truly knows what was first and maybe that's the point is like that we're meant to have two opposing points of view for the same idea [music] I don't know I would say either Tolken did this on purpose as kind of a mixed narrative because you'll notice that Gandalf doesn't call Tom Bombadil the eldest and oldest being and then also call, you know, Gandalf does not also then call Tree Beard the oldest and eldest [music] being. That would seem weirder. Um unless Tree Beard and Tom I mean they're they are very similar beings. They're both masters of their domains. They're forests. Um they're both called the eldest and and fatherless in in many ways. Um so unless they're literally like the same creature, but I would highly doubt that.

[00:05:39]Um, it's very possible that different characters have a different viewpoint or that it was a mistake that that [music] Tolken made and one that he didn't rectify in telling us what he meant by the oldest being. Again, even if Tom is the oldest higher being, that's very strange because the Inure came to the world after it was initially created. So, I'm not exactly sure what that means. And then again, I don't know really which came first. Like were the are we saying that the ants were still alive but not cured of their dumbness, right? Um until the until the elves woke them up and you know taught them speech as it were. So I don't know. Um yeah, it is an inconsistency at the least. Might be a mistake. Seems to be maybe either a mistake or that different characters have different opinions on it. All right. Well, that's an interesting one.

[00:06:34]Moving on to another one. Uh, this has to do with how characters interact with the rings of power. So, being able to give up a ring of power, Gandalf says, "A [music] ring of power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most, he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care, and that only at an early stage when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has gone beyond playing and really done it."

[00:07:05]However, right, this is a broad statement because Gandalf has a ring of power and it was given to him freely by Kyan the shipwright and also the dwarves of Duran's folk, right? They would hold their ring and until they surrendered it when near death and give it to their heir. Um like when Thor gave it to his son Thrain I as Gandalf says at the council of again coming straight from the article. Uh all of this is so um explanation. So perhaps Gandalf meant only the rings that Sauron had hand had had a hand in making uh which might be the only ones that grip. Gandalf's ring is one of the three which Sauron never touched. Duran's folk believed that they had received their ring directly from the elven smiths though Sauron did help make it. [music] Further, it is noted in the appendices that the rings could influence dwarfs to a much lesser extent [music] than men. Specifically, the only power over dwarves that the rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things.

[00:08:00]Gandalf may have been speaking implicitly only of men considering the context of the conversation in his audience. I Okay, I don't buy this one.

[00:08:08]Um, I kind of feel like Tolken was still trying to figure out what the rings of power were, to what degree they were powerful enough, right? How much stronger is the one ring versus the other rings? I I think at this point in earlier on in the narrative, he was probably still trying to figure out how all of these things worked and what their rules were. I imagine Gandalf more means here. Um, no one except Bilbo has been able to give up the one ring of power um of their own valition, right?

[00:08:42]and based on what he's been able to [music] find out because yeah, I mean Kyan gave up his ring but also beyond that Gilgalad gave up his ring to Eland Villia to Eland. [music] We also, yeah, obviously the dwarves passed down their rings. And I also don't buy this part of the explanation that says um Sauron never touched the dwarven rings because even though that is I believe, you know, from some of the appendices at least [music] that Duran's folk, the dwarves at least believed that they had received their ring directly from the elven smiths. Um I I also have seen other accounts that Sauron gathered all the the greater 16 rings, right? Those of men and those of dwarves and he ensured that they were distributed after the fall of Rean and the death of Kellbimbbor. So he did have a hand and touched all of those rings. I I think right he had corrupted the nine rings of men and the seven rings of dwarves. He'd never touched the three rings of elves and then obviously he created uh his one ring. I think the best explanation here is that Gandalf is more saying the the ring of power, not just any [music] ring of power. So I I mean that's that's going to be the best explanation here. Is it still a mistake?

[00:09:56]Kind of. But Gandalf is also talking. I mean, how imprecise are we when we talk?

[00:10:02]Sometimes it happens. Uh you could say that maybe Tolken would rewrite that if given the given the shot and the chance to be able to do so. Um, but I mean it's fine. I I think this this one is kind of like either a minor minor mistake or Gandalf was kind of painting with a broad brush, whatever it is, because I think Tolken himself was probably still trying to figure out what are the rules of the rings of power. [music] So, there we go. All right. Here's a here's an interesting little detail. Aragorn's knowledge about the lands of Ariador. He tells the hobbits and Brie, "I know all the lands between the Shire and the Misty Mountains, for I have wandered over them for many years." But later, speaking of the etales, uh, near, right, the Etnors, um, or another name for the Etnor, rather, he says, "That is troll country, and little is known to me or sorry, and little known to me, and I do not know the way. The Etnales or Etenors are on a line between the Shire and the northern part of the Missy Mountains."

[00:11:01]That's true. Okay. Explanation. And if we take Aragorn's line, wandered over them literally, we can accept that Aragorn has also wandered over the Etendales. Of course, that does not necessarily mean that Aragorn knows or should know everything about those lands or even knows all ways to Rivendell through them. He says that he knows those lands little. I actually agree with this explanation quite a lot. I mean, I think he knows. It's kind of like saying, "Oh, I know all 50 states in the United States, or I know all of the countries in Europe or in Africa or something like that versus like, oh yeah, I could lead you through them." I think it's a bit different. I think he knows like all the lands. I mean, probably from Photoel to Angmar and to the Etenors to I mean, where else? Let me look up at my map that's above my computer to Enidwife. Um, right in the southern lands of Ariador. I think Aragorn knows and probably has been to most all of these lands, but could he actually direct a path through? Does he know a lot about them, especially the Etnors? No. And here's the lore explanation, too. He would have very little reason to go to the Etnors. I mean, it's probably a painful place to him because I don't think he ever really knew his grandfather, Eridor. I think Eridor would have been would have passed away when Araborn either was not yet born. Yeah, I don't think he was even born yet. uh [music] if at all knew him.

[00:12:24]But his grandfather was killed in the Etenors by a troll. [music] And yeah, Aragorn would probably not go there.

[00:12:31]It's just a dangerous place full of trolls, full of pain in Aragorn's ancestry. And there would be there's like nothing there. So, he probably knows them, but knows very little of them, if that makes sense. [music] Um, again, it's the same of like, oh yeah, I I know these different states within the country. Oh, but could I tell you like how to, [music] you know, where where's the b best place to eat or the best road to take? I Yeah. No idea. There's another section in this article called facts. And so this one is a is actually a rather big one, a big inconsistency that a lot of people point to as one of the more major mistakes within Tolken's works, the doors of Duran. So Moria translates as black pit or black chasm in Synindar and the name was said to have been given by the elves without love possibly indicating that it was kind of a derogatory description. Makes sense. Right after the fall of Moria or Kazadum. Furthermore, the Sylmerelion states that Kazadum was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria suggesting the name was not widely used until after Duran's bane took over the city and it was overrun by orcs. It is therefore a paradox why the name appears on the doors of Duran. themselves.

[00:13:40][music] Enin Duran Aran Moria made in the second age with the consent of the dwarves. So the explanation or possible explanation here is that there are many possible explanations to this apparent inconsistency. The name may have been given by the elves in reference to Moria's inherent darkness from being underground in contrast with their love for green earth and the lights of heaven and therefore was in use before Moria's fall to the balro. There is also no clear evidence that the dwarves found this name to be offensive [music] and they may have had no objection to its use on the doors. Some external explanations suggest that since the translated names Duran and Narvy are seen in the the inscription, Moria may be a translated name.

[00:14:24]Yeah, I I have less ideas regarding this one not being a mistake um or paradoxical at the very least.

[00:14:33]It could be that. I mean, we know that the doors of Doran were made before obviously the fall, but maybe that was added later. I don't know. It probably wasn't. Um, like maybe the the name in Elvish with Moria included could have been added like after it was lost to them, but I don't think so. I think that would contradict the lore. I'm pretty sure that inscription was added by Doran and Kell or uh sorry, not Doran, but um Narvy and Kellbimbbor. Um, yeah. I don't know. I think I feel like Moria is kind of seen as an insult. I mean, who's who wants their home, even if it is underground, you want it to be the the grand halls or the great great dwarven mansions or whatever, right? You wouldn't want it to be black pit, dark chasm, or whatever it is, right? Close enough. You wouldn't want your home to probably be called that, especially if it's literally the doorway, the entrance door to your home.

[00:15:29]Welcome to the Black Pit. It doesn't say that, but close enough. Again, um I I don't know. I don't know. I think this was probably a slip of unless Moria in its olden like older form [music] um meant a direct translation of Kazadum because Kazadum is a Khazad word. It is a dwarven word, a Kazdul word uh or name rather. And so perhaps that Kazadum translated into the el like the elven name for it was always Moria. And so since the rest of it [music] MN Duran Aran Moria since all that is in Elvish they put Moria as the translation for Kazadoom. But still even in their own languages Moria and Kazadum mean different things. So there's that. How I'm trying to judge these is if Tolken were going through this video with us, right? if he was with me at at the microphone here and I'd say you have a chance to rewrite this this section and undo this, would you? If he would, it's probably a mistake or at least enough of an inconsistency to bother someone like Tolken, who is pretty perfectionist in a very good way. I mean, it makes his works what they are. But if given the chance, would he change it? I feel like he would change this one. meaning I think it probably is a mistake because again Moria in the Sylmerelion definitely seems to be a bit more of a of an insulting derogatory name for Kazadoom. So there's no way in a time of friendship when Kazadoom was at its height when the elven friendship with the dwarves was at its height. There's no way they would put that name on purpose. It's kind of an insult to be honest. I think this one's probably a mistake. But again, maybe there's some other explanation here as well.

[00:17:16]All right, let's do two more. Again, there there's actually a lot to discuss here in this article. So, let me know if you'd like me to come back and and make a second one, but um the next one is beater and biter. So, Glamrang and Orcrist. [music] These swords are said to have belonged to King Toggon of the first age. They never appeared much in battle. Okay, I I would even maybe correct this. Love Tolken Gateway has helped me with, you know, a lot of videos and organizing my thoughts and stuff, but also take this with a grain of salt, too. and and make sure you're doing your own homework when it comes to these articles. Um, Glamring definitely belonged to Torgon. Orcrist was its mate and but I don't think Toggon fought with two swords, right? It doesn't ever seem like that in the summer or anything. So, the going idea uh amongst all of like the Tolken community is that Orcrist either belonged to um like some other elf.

[00:18:07]Maybe it also belonged to to you know to I'll give it that but probably not. some other elf in Gondolind [music] um like Ethelon of the of the fountain probably belonged to to him. But regardless, they never appeared much in battle. Toggon fought only in the Narnia Nidiad, and they were witnessed only by the orcs of Bolyriian. However, in the third age, the swords are found in a troll horde in Ariador, and the orcs of the Misty Mountains recognize them by their names. The orcs do not seem to react similarly in the sight of Glamring in the Lord of the Rings, nor do they seem to recognize Narcil Endril, which is much more recent. [music] That's This is such an interesting one and honestly one that I haven't really thought much about. Um Roy and I, we did a video looking at the same article uh or a podcast rather for our patrons and YouTube members where I believe we went through this one as well. But yeah, if you're interested in in hearing more of our thoughts about all of this, check out our Patreon. But uh the explanation here is that there can be several theories and explanations of how the swords and even their reputations reach Ariador. However, the narrative of the Sylmerelion does not justify their significance to the extent of being remembered and recognized by the goblins of the third age even by tradition. So yeah, this is the tough thing about figuring out your world and it's a beautiful thing, but it's tough to figure out your world as you're writing it and as you're writing it in multiple places. The Hobbit and then its sequel within the Lord of the Rings, but then you're also world building the Sylmerelion at the same time kind of throughout your life and then you're connecting all these worlds together.

[00:19:37]These kinds of things are going to happen, I think. Um, particularly because you see a lot of references to Gondolin in The Hobbit, too. And it's like, oh, okay, this is certainly after the events of the Sylmerelion. Um, but there's not as many explicit mentions of Gondolan, I feel like, in the Lord of the Rings, even though the Lord of the Rings is a direct sequel to The Hobbit.

[00:19:56]Regardless, all right, putting that aside, I think [music] what's interesting is that the orcs of the Misty Mountains are the ones to recognize Glamring [music] and Orcrist, but they don't fight a lot of orcs of the Misty Mountains in the Lord of the Rings. Now, there are orcs in Moria, but those are different from the goblins of Goblin Town, [music] right? And and that is telling. Also, these swords found their way into some troll cave, some troll horde. Uh whether it was through like briggins that were assaulted by the trolls and the trolls took their stuff and looted them and then took it into their cave or whatever else, somehow these swords made it near the Misty Mountains. My guess is that because many of the elves of Rivendell were high elves, especially the elves um that lived in the overall kingdom of of Lynden, right, of uh [music] Gilgalad's kind of ruling and and that used to be an Ariador in the second age, which was after obviously the downfall of Gondolind. I wonder if maybe some elves had escaped Gondolind with those swords [music] and bore them in in their king's name, their fallen king's name, uh, Toorggon and potentially again Ethelon. Um, [music] and for a while they bore these weapons against the orcs of the Misty Mountains and were adventurers, but then fell prey to trolls or and left them to men and left. Yeah, I doubt they would do that. If they went to Valinor, they'd probably take the swords with them. So, I'd imagine these elves, whoever they must have been, had the swords were eventually slain and the swords were taken into this troll horde, whatever it is. However, I imagine they were menaced. They were they were used against the goblins of the Misty Mountains and [music] very few others.

[00:21:43]Meaning, the goblins of the Misty Mountains would remember them, but your random orc from Mordor would not.

[00:21:49][music] They would not know of that.

[00:21:51]That's my kind of head cannon particularly because again himself is a descendant of Togon. So I think a lot of elves would end up in the area of Rivendell or Lynden or the kingdom or any of these surrounding areas. So that makes the most sense to me as to why they don't recognize Narcel and Endurel.

[00:22:09]I mean that kind of still makes sense.

[00:22:11]That's 3,000 years later. Yeah, they're more recent, but none of the orcs that were in the War of the Last Alliance were around for the War of the Ring. At least as far as we know. So that makes sense. Yeah. Glamouring. Again, I I bet against if if for whatever reason the Fellowship of the Ring had to go through Goblin Town, [music] it probably would have been recognized again. [laughter] Particularly because 60 years earlier Gandalf had come through [music] and you know decimated or rather like 80 years earlier, whatever it is, Gandalf had decimated them with Glamring and Orcrist from from Thoren. So, those are my thoughts with Beater and Biter. All right, we're going to end this video on a big one, one that I've discussed in multiple videos before, so I won't get too too much into it, but I'm going to see what they say here, and we're going to obviously discuss it. The Eagles. One of the best known alleged plot holes is why the Eagles came to carry Frodo and Sam back from Mount Doom, but did not help them to fly the One Ring there, or at least help them at other parts in their journey, such as crossing the Misty Mountains. It is particularly hard to understand why this idea was not proposed in the Council of Eland.

[00:23:21]Explanation. This question is discussed in detail in the article on the Eagles, which gives several explanations. In general, the explanations for not flying the ring to Mount Doom are better than those for the fellowships, not at least trying to have the eagles fly them across [music] the Missy Mountains. I think especially if Tolken Tolken was not a huge fan of critics and and and um you know particular news criticism all that kind of stuff.

[00:23:45]So who knows what he would be paying attention to if he were still alive today. However, I think the Eagles thing would have reached him and he even wrote in letters uh or in at least one letter that they like he was addressing them in his mind and then they were if they were overused it would destroy the plot but if they were underused like he understood that they could be seen as a bit of a of a narrative issue. My thing is that, you know, and and this is contradicted in The Hobbit for sure, but generally speaking, items of great importance are not flown on the backs of eagles. Um, such as the Sylmeril of Baron and Luian, nor the one ring when it's on its way to being destroyed.

[00:24:26]Again, this is contradicted when Bilbo is saved by the eagles. But generally speaking, like we don't see the eagles picking up again. They pick up Baron and Lucian from Angband, but the the Sylmeril is gone. Cararoth has it in his stomach and they only appear afterwards.

[00:24:44]It's not like they're there to grab the sils, grab the one ring. Maybe the doom of these great artifacts, and I'm just spitballing here, might be too much for the eagles to bear, like weight wise or something else. Who knows? Um but again obviously when the one ring was not as important during the events of the Hobbit they were able to fly them. So even with this explanation there's still some inongruency there. And um I don't know obviously I think Tolken would change if I had him here and and he was seeing this and had the opportunity to change a bit of how the Eagles worked. I imagine he would. I think yeah, the Eagles I'm While I'm not sure I'd call it a mistake, I think he would add elaborate more, add more to their lore [music] to make it probably less of a problem.

[00:25:34]Um, if I had to hazard a guess what Tolken would add or change or modify with regards to the eagles, I think they would be placed under some more [music] explicit dooms or um, prophet like not prophecy, that's not the right word, but almost something of that power. I mean, they're Manway's servants. Clearly, they can only get so involved. And I think that's fair because look at the girdle of Melon, for instance. The somal makes its way through in the stomach of Cararoth once again makes its way through the girdle of Melon because its doom [music] is greater than that of her girdle. I kind of think it's like this too. I imagine if he could go back and and change things, maybe he would say that the eagles simply could not bear the weight of the doom of the one ring. That was not for them to do. And as direct servants of one of the valor, they were not permitted to do that. and the doom would have been too much for them to overcome.

[00:26:33]The prophetic nature of something like a somaril or like a one ring would have possibly been too much for them to handle. And so while they could have flown other members of the fellowship as they do Gandalf saving Gandalf from Eisenard or the Misty Mountains after Gandalf is resurrected, um I think that would have been pointless if he couldn't carry the ring bearer because he's got the one ring. Who knows, right? I I I I can't speak for uh the professor himself, of course, and I would not presume to do so, but based on how he handles other things like oaths and dooms and curses, prophecies, things like the girdle of Melon being able to be overcome by that. Um yeah, I imagine actually if we do a part two for this video, I do want to hopefully address the Baron and Lucian like how Baron is able to pick up a somal, but he is a mortal allegedly, right? mortals could not pick up the sylmeril, they would burn mortal flesh. So, that's another one that we could discuss in a future part of this video. So, I do think sometimes though the doom of the moment, the the prophecy being fulfilled, whatever you want to say about it overcomes certain rules or enforces and imposes certain rules on the the lore around it. [music] That's kind of my guess. Is this uh an inconvenience for the lore and a bit of a inconsistency? Yeah, it is. But I think Tolken would change that if if given the uh he would modify it a little bit if given the choice, I think. So, my friends, let me know which of these truly seems like a misinterpretation on the reader's behalf versus a mistake [music] that Tolken actually made, and which one was the most interesting to you. I really like the uh I mean I like ones that impose like frame narrative knowledge. So I mean Aragorn's knowledge was very interesting with the Etnors [music] um beater and biter like how when we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the characters again also one of the best explanations for the Tom Bombadil um and Treebeard kind of kind of conflict because it's differing characters that have the opinions of them being eldest. I I like when those inconsistencies can be spelled out as actually good writing when we look through the eyes of our characters.

[00:28:52]That's really cool to me. So, uh yeah, let me know which ones are most fascinating to you. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the matter of of all of these. Let me know if you'd like a part two in the comments below. Truly, this was a fun one to make. A lot of ranting for sure, but I'm a bit of a talker, just like Treebeard. So from this tale, we see that all things, even those of immense beauty, may have flaws.

[00:29:14]But that is also what makes them truly real and something immense to behold.

[00:29:18]For we may find great wonder looking through and past [music] such mistakes.

[00:29:23]Thank you all so much for watching. I hope you all enjoyed this video. If you did, please hit that like button and share this with a friend. And if you'd like to support the channel and what we do here, please consider joining our Patreon and YouTube memberships. The best way to support the channel. Um, also please consider looking at CastleCon's Lord of the Rings replicas and [music] weapons and so forth. Lots of good stuff there. And uh, yeah, thank you so much to our Valerant tier patrons and YouTube members, Joby Weasel, Ed Patterson, Comic Nut 64, Zumi, Peter Shepard, and Meas Flavus. My friends, please check out Masters of Mythology, our second channel on myths and legends.

[00:29:57]And thank you all so much for joining me on this grand adventure. Until the next one.