Dr John Cooper Clarke joins the Rockonteurs podcast

Añadido: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Hello Gary. Hello guy. Now before we do anything, I want to correct the record because when during the Richard Barbieri interview, I made a mistake and it's been pointed out in quite a few comments and it was shockingly slack and embarrassing and I need to point it out which is made it was when we were talking about Dark Side of the Moon >> and how a lot of the sound effects and stuff were found. I said that even though I knew I knew, of course I knew that Alan Parson's uh had actually that the clocks at the start of time. Um I said that they were from a BBC sound effects record. Of course they weren't.

[00:00:38]They were recorded by Alan Parsons for a documentary. Um the point being they were just found. They weren't specifically for that. And I know this is incredibly dull, but I know how upset some people can get by this sort of thing. So, you haven't been gone up in front of any sort of Floydian authorities over this?

[00:00:56]>> No. No. No. I haven't been hauled before the beak yet.

[00:01:00]>> The judge in the wall.

[00:01:02]>> Exactly.

[00:01:03]>> Whatever that judge was called on the wall >> for the trial.

[00:01:07]>> Yeah. Yeah. We We saw each other last night, didn't we? We did that rather fabulous David Bowie thing. You're not alone.

[00:01:15]>> Yeah. You're not alone.

[00:01:17]>> Um, do you want to describe it? Oh, I'll try. It's um it's in a way it's quite similar to Moon's Daydream, the film.

[00:01:26]>> No, no, no, but the first of all, the room. So, okay. Sorry. Well, yes. Sorry.

[00:01:30]Let Let me Yes. It's the Lightroom for those who don't know. It's a fantastically It's an immersive space. U you go down into it. You're just in this big sort of dark cube and you they project on every side.

[00:01:42]>> Yeah. It's only the ceiling that isn't being projected on. So, the floor and and all four walls >> Yeah. have have uh cuz I saw David Hawkney show there a few years ago and then they had an Apollo show there where people were you know you know Stanley Cubri was directing people on a moonscape you know >> oh yeah cool >> and uh which was I mean that was mind-blowing I loved it and um and now they've got David Bowie >> do we think they're missing a trick by not having the ceiling like they do at that one in Tottenham Court Road >> I don't know I mean >> actually probably not if you were Bruce Willis you'd want to climb out of a hatch up there, wouldn't you? So, you'd probably need to know where it is.

[00:02:21]>> Um, but it was I did get a sore neck actually, even just from the >> Did you Did you But it was it was um it was a great it was a great night. It was a good turnout, wasn't it? A lot of people went in in, you know, because they're very so people love David, you know, and so, you know, the Gilmore were there and Noel was there and who else did we see? Damian Lewis was there. I mean, big George Boy, George. I mean, it's >> and I made a fantastic acquaintance, I must say, which is who's Debb Guj, who is the uh basis for My Bloody Valentine, uh, who was fabulous. And you got into today, haven't you?

[00:02:55]>> I've the the band.

[00:02:57]>> No, I've I've uh I've been on a My Bloody Valentine tip today whilst doing my research. They're fantastic.

[00:03:04]>> So, watch out. Um, but it it wasn't sequential. I mean, it's not chronological as much as it's thematic. the the film of Bowie, it's about an hour long. It's huge. He's everywhere. And what comes across for me is he's a great philosopher and teacher still. And you know, because it's just his voice.

[00:03:27]That's all we ever hear clips from from interviews he's given.

[00:03:32]And how prophetic they are and how um for me as a young man, you know, I would have gone off and found books because Bowie suggested them. gone off and seen movies that Bowie suggested.

[00:03:45]>> Yeah.

[00:03:45]>> And you feel that if I took my kids along to that show, they're going to be educated still by that bloke, you know, who was so hungry for culture, wasn't he? Cuz just coming from a normal working-class background.

[00:03:57]>> Yeah. But which I think was very much a thing of the time, wasn't it? I remember leading read reading an interview once with I was either Golton or Simpson and you know they're that little bit older but they were talking well not really that that postwar generation and they were saying how they were in this black and white world and everyone was so desperate for knowledge and culture and anything. So yeah. Yeah. So there are beautiful ex I mean exquisite moments.

[00:04:24]It doesn't dwell on his death which I think is really good. And I spoke to someone from the estate uh afterwards who said, you know, we we really don't want to just hover around that he's alive. He's still here. It's it's and it it has that feeling of of of, you know, it is very alive when you're in the room. And um it it there are some great moments. The Major Tom moment is fantastic. And you you it sort of cuts between all the different versions of Major Tom going up to him playing it live uh later on in life with his great deeper resonance and and back phrasing that he you know he's introducing and what that comes across as well is his songwriting guy. Do we need to say that to anybody out there Bowie fans?

[00:05:05]>> Well, I love because it's an interesting thing he says about how much his writing is influenced by who's in the room and and it it is it is that is very very true. You know, because I've always had this thing that it's interesting how he never wrote a truly musically complex song after Mick Ronson went. So, and it's kind of >> No, not there. Yeah. Not saying not saying if you look at the chords that are in those songs on on anything on Ziggy, the end of Rock and Roll, Suicide, um Life on Mars, I think depends what he never wrote anything like that. Yeah, it depends what he's writing on because he never he never did that again. No, but when he was when he was writing those particular songs and that particular period, he was at Haden Hall and there was an upright piano and from what I've you know read he he was going to the piano quite a lot for those for to write those songs. So I always think it's about whether or not he's writing them on a guitar. But you know when they do Space Odyssey you know that >> the chord sequences in that the grandeur I mean it's American song book isn't it really?

[00:06:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. I sort never got clarified the rumor that just you know the rhythm there's a rumor that that was Tim Renick.

[00:06:16]>> Yeah. Well, who came up with that idea?

[00:06:18]>> No. Who played it?

[00:06:18]>> Who played it?

[00:06:20]>> Yeah.

[00:06:20]>> Oh, well, can't you just ask Tim?

[00:06:22]>> What do you think, wouldn't you? For some reason, I never do.

[00:06:27]>> Um, what else did I want to say? I wanted to also say, you know, it was odd going to see, you know, here we are seeing Bowie completely alive on the same day 10 years after Prince died and, you know, Radio 6 were playing Prince all day long and um and you you you are aware of the fact that the real greats that have been delivered to us in music aren't very many. you know, Prince and Bowie and Freddy probably, you know, I mean, you know, they're not many where that are so charismatic, so talented and so giving and that we'll, you know, >> listen to. It depends what you It depends what you talk about. And there's all, you know, then we could talk about Pete and all, you know, there's a whole other world.

[00:07:13]>> Oh, I think I'm talking about frontmen.

[00:07:15]>> You're talking about frontmen, aren't you?

[00:07:16]>> Yeah. Yeah. Front men who, you know, I mean, Mick.

[00:07:21]>> Yeah. and um John Cooper Clark.

[00:07:25]>> John Cooper Clark. I mean, who's who's I've really loved getting back into a lot of this. And there's a there's a there's a thread I want to get into which um I'm not going to say anything about now, which I think could be quite interesting because um from everything I know about him, is that I I don't think we really want to do a dive on his career. I don't think we really want to do anything other than talk to him and see what he has to say >> cuz it's just cuz I am interested in in those beginnings. I think I saw >> No, of course though that's the thing.

[00:07:55]Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:07:56]>> I saw him at some punk shows I went to, you know, doing the support thing and and also the idea that he's influenced kind of British rap in many ways, talking songs, you know, that you know, people like Lily Allen say, you know, who who started, you know, to talk over their music.

[00:08:15]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:17]>> And did that come from sort of was who was before him doing that? Was that was that maybe even people toasting?

[00:08:24]It's it's lot toasting. It's Gills got Heron, people like that.

[00:08:28]>> There's um but yeah, because this is the thing I want to get into is >> how is it that of all the types of of rock music, pop music, whatever, it was punk that embraced poetry, that embraced poets. I I think >> whereas cuz there was a thing sorry because you know the supposed beginning of of countercultural London was the poetry festival at the Royal Albert Hall the thing with Ginsburg and everyone but then that didn't really translate into because then it was all about it was all about the songwriters being the poets you know Dylan's the poet Lennon's the poet >> so as opposit the the front man especially Johnny Rotten sort of spoke the the the the songs I am an antichrist, you know. It's like Well, it's all one note, isn't it?

[00:09:17]It's it's it's spoken almost. It it is poetry itself, you know.

[00:09:22]>> Well, you can say Yeah, you can say that about Dylan as well, can't you? I mean, there really nice tunes hidden in there.

[00:09:27]>> Yeah. But um >> but then also yeah the fact but then of course you got Linson Queasy Johnson you got um Zachariah uh there's a whole you know there's um it's interesting there's actually a whole world of these but it just seems funny when the whole argument against punk was this dreadful spitting nihilists and and yet you know there weren't any Prague poets were there.

[00:09:49]But but but he did suit it with >> they were they were just so long they just did fullon Americ post Britain workingclass Britain you know the normality of life you know and he he it the way he's translated into bands in you know I mentioned Lily Allen but also you know I want to be yours turning up which is fantastic >> turning up as an Arctic Monkey song you mean it's It's he and he's now, you know, we have to say it, don't we, a bit of a national treasure because he's >> he's on our telly box all the time.

[00:10:25]>> For sure. And >> oh, sorry. Go on.

[00:10:28]>> Second poet we've had on.

[00:10:30]>> Exactly. Um, sorry, I tell you who does deserve a mention is of course Mike McCartney and McGuff and those Liverpool >> poets, the certain extent, John Lennon.

[00:10:40]I mean those two books of poems that he he wrote, you know, and playing around with uh with puns and words.

[00:10:47]>> Um anyway, you know, we don't know anything. He knows it all. Should we get him on?

[00:10:52]>> Welcome to the rock on Mr. Cooper Clark.

[00:10:55]>> Oh no, Mr. Clark. Really, isn't it?

[00:10:57]Doctor Dr. Clark, >> guys. All right.

[00:11:01]>> All right, John. How are you?

[00:11:02]>> All right. Smashing.

[00:11:04]>> Great. Where are you? You in London or you in Manchester?

[00:11:10]just rifle through the countryside.

[00:11:13]>> See what I >> can you see the cathedral?

[00:11:16]>> Yeah. Very good.

[00:11:17]>> Very good. He's straight he's straight in with the >> I think I had a chat with you when I was on Radio London a a few months ago. I can't remember now.

[00:11:29]>> I I think I think we did. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:31]Also, I saw you you did a great job in the homecoming at the studios that you at that theater that you did with Keith >> Trafalga Studios.

[00:11:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Trafalga Studios.

[00:11:44]That was that was great. I love I love Arrow P and you were terrific.

[00:11:49]>> Oh, mate. Thank you. I was actually Gary, did you see him in the audience?

[00:11:53]Because he's very >> I didn't see him. If I'd seen him, I would have stopped him. I would have had a longer pause.

[00:12:00]But uh no, I mean listen >> that was great.

[00:12:04]>> No, Pint Pinter get it because there's a poetry in Pinterest.

[00:12:10]>> Yeah.

[00:12:11]>> Pacing.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah.

[00:12:12]>> So you're not on the road, right? Sorry.

[00:12:14]Go on. Go on, John. Do >> you remember that? It was on TV as well.

[00:12:17]I couldn't believe this. How are we for the see you next Tuesday word?

[00:12:22]>> Yeah. Go on. You're allowed to say anything you want. Yeah.

[00:12:25]>> Uh we're talking about art. So, you know, it's it's allowed, you know, but the technique of Arrol Pinser, it was uh you must have seen it. It's I mean, they've got footage of it. It was it's um uh um Oh, heck. Uh >> it's not No Man's Land, is it?

[00:12:42]>> Yeah.

[00:12:43]>> Yeah. No Man's Land. It's got >> I know the line. I know the line.

[00:12:46]>> Come on, John. You go. Let's hear it.

[00:12:48]>> Ralph Richardson and uh John Gilgood.

[00:12:52]But the two gangsters, you know, his bodyguards, you know, Foster, one of them's called, and uh and uh and this one bit where he's talking to uh John Hug, who's a kind of itinerant poet that muscled his way in after walking on Hamstead. He there's loads of stuff. I didn't understand it all at the time, but there's lots of that baggage attached to it. The Twix Twig Peepers Twix Twig Peeper as which is a line we use a lot but the but the the line was uh um uh he describes a painting and said how would you feel about that and this gangster you know he said well a work of art tends to move me uh oh that's it you know uh I'm the sensitive type and he points with Hey, this guy here uh he he will he would bulk at giving you his all. But I'm the sensitive expansive type. That's the gist of it. Anyway, he says he says uh if I saw that picture uh he says that a work of art tends I'm the sensitive type. A work of art tends to move me.

[00:14:13]I'm not a [ __ ] you know.

[00:14:19]That's Ba. You know I I spilled my tea.

[00:14:24]>> Did he? No.

[00:14:26]>> The line. And then he did it once more.

[00:14:30]>> He said it. Sorry about he said it once more just to re just to sort of establish. But yes, he he did say >> he knew he would question whether he had heard it right. And the >> guy you're bursting to get in, guy.

[00:14:44]>> I'm bursting. No, because I was thinking because there's another time in the play that I was think and it's one of my favorite lines in any play ever and it's just it just goes he goes champagne before lunch cuz the best time to drink champagne is before lunch you [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:01]>> You know what Pinter said though that what made him put those big silences in his plays was was when he was a kid walking through the East End and he and he'd hear the sound of a doo doodle bug coming and if the doodle bug sound stopped you just that silence was dreadful because you knew it was going to land somewhere near you.

[00:15:21]>> Ah I see what he I get the connection.

[00:15:24]Yeah.

[00:15:25]>> Yeah. Anyway, John, what you So, when you're going on tour, >> pardon?

[00:15:29]>> You're going on tour?

[00:15:30]>> Yes. Uh, in the uh in the autumn, really? Uh, I'll get the actual dates for you right here, Gary.

[00:15:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. South End Palace Theater, 7 7th of October, 10th of October, Pool Lighthouse, Bristol Beacon on the 11th.

[00:15:49]Quite extensive.

[00:15:51]>> Quite extensive.

[00:15:51]>> This sounds like one of your homes. I was going to say you better transform it already.

[00:15:56]>> Every list is a poem. I always say you every you know >> not every poem is a list but every list is a poem. I was once on a judging panel for the poetical judging panel. One of these poetry slams. I never I never want went to any any one ever again. It was so gladiatorial and cruel.

[00:16:19]I thought this is no place for a poet.

[00:16:21]You know, they're ripping this po, you know, some little girl, you know, get spilling her art out and, you know, get her off that like the gong show but with poetry and all these sensitive souls being ripped to shreds. Horrible. I never went to another one after that. But anyway, there was there was a judging panel of which one of which was me and uh I can't remember who the woman was. She but she said uh oh that's not a that's not a poem it's a list. So uh I said the same thing as I said there. I said all poems are list what is it? Not every poem is a list but every list is a poem.

[00:17:01]>> You ever seen that bit in uh No Directions Home? You know that movie about you know.

[00:17:06]>> Oh yeah.

[00:17:07]>> Penny Bacon. Is that a Penny Baker one or Scorsese?

[00:17:10]>> No. No. The one in sort of blonde on blonde sort of period.

[00:17:13]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:15]Scorsese, no directions on. And he he's reading this bill of fair outside this drug school and just rearranging them on the spot. Unbelievable.

[00:17:27]>> And that's the power of list.

[00:17:29]>> It's great that it's great that fantastic. Yeah.

[00:17:32]>> Well, even in a way, you know, that that you know, when he's when he's going through the cards, that's like >> turning his That's a list as well, isn't it?

[00:17:39]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:40]>> How much of an influence was Dylan on you, John? Oh, I should be incalculable, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But no more than you know John Biman and uh you know actual poets. So Henry >> certainly Henry Newbolt and Rudyard Kipley you know.

[00:18:00]>> Tell us about Henry Newbolt. I don't know enough about him.

[00:18:03]>> Oh he did Vai Lampard. The sand of the desert is sod and red. Red read red with the wreck of a square that broke the gatlings jan and the colonels dead. A regiment blind with dust and smoke. The river of death has brimmed its banks and England's far and honor a name. But the voice of a school boy rallies the ranks.

[00:18:25]Play up. Play up and play the game.

[00:18:30]>> Oh, that's where that line comes from.

[00:18:32]>> Part.

[00:18:34]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:34]>> When did you when did you Okay. So, what's the difference?

[00:18:38]What did what did you first recognize that you liked writing the poems or you liked to read poetry?

[00:18:45]Well, uh I think the there's one guy responsible for my uh uh early interest in poetry. uh John Malone who was uh the Cathol Catholic school the last two years and uh it became a hot house of poetic uh creativity thanks to him and he he would uh select uh you know u traditional poets from the pal Graves golden treasury which was the the the go-to textbook po poetry book at the time in the uh in the education system and it was people like you know John Mayfield would have in perhaps the most modern of them all. Uh but going back to, you know, uh Andrew Marvel, but he had a he had a preference for kind of fast moving things at a galloping pace.

[00:19:34]Uh Dick Turpin's last ride by uh Richard Noise, for instance, and Charge of the Light Brigade. Lot lot of tennis. The lady of Sherot, you know, pretty romantic but vigorous. that's you know uh Tommy Atkins by uh Roard Kipley and stuff like that. So uh and it was a mixed school you know we had girls in the class so it became a like a point of honor to expand your vocabulary. We were becoming aware of our uh you know softer side at that point as a class you know and it became like a kind of badge of uh badge of honor to uh be able to compose uh poetry.

[00:20:23]>> What about the reading of poetry though?

[00:20:24]That was very well that that was the main lesson that I learned that you know uh uh that it is a phonetic medium and even if you've got a book full of it, you're better off reading it aloud because you're only getting uh you know half the uh hit if you if you don't hear it. So to me it has always been a it has more to do with music than literature really. You know it is a phonetic experience. Someone once said, and I don't, this might be completely wrong, but I've definitely heard it said, that Japanese has no stress on any syllables, which makes it the easiest language to write poetry in.

[00:21:08]>> Is that a fact? Is that a fact?

[00:21:10]>> It might not be because I embrace the haiku many times like most other people in my field. Well, the the first haiku number one is the one most people like uh to to to freeze the moment in 17 syllables is very diffic.

[00:21:34]>> Yeah.

[00:21:36]But there there's something about the sort of gatling gun of your uh of your expression, John, that that when I listen to the live stuff from the early from the, you know, the 70s, the mid70s that you you're almost having to do have to do that because the the heckling that's going on from the crowd. Yeah.

[00:21:54]Yeah. Yeah. Plus, it was it was the kind of house style of punk anyway, you know, to speed everything up, >> you know. Well, yeah.

[00:22:02]>> High energy. This high energ >> but also just with the writing, the sheer amount, sorry, but like like Joe Strummer or Elvis Costello, the sheer amount of words that been crammed into everything >> jamments of the lyrics and the relentlessness of the delivery. Yeah.

[00:22:21]Yeah. Was very much the house style at that time. So seeing as I wanted to fit in uh you know them with the ground rules and along with no beards, no flares, I could deal with that. I didn't I didn't have any of those things.

[00:22:38]>> But when did you start when did you first know you had this urge to write?

[00:22:41]And I know you said about school, but but but performing and when did you first become a poet that stood on a stage? Well, to be honest, um I always ever since I found out, thanks to John Malone of the and the general hot house competitive poetical atmosphere that he created. Uh and this was a tough school I'm talking about here. This was no grammar school, man. Put it this way. We had our own coroner.

[00:23:12]So to get these people poetry was a major uh a major uh thing.

[00:23:21]>> Yeah.

[00:23:22]>> The school had its own minimum requirement.

[00:23:28]>> But it wasn't you weren't s sort of uh drawn towards picking up an instrument and forming a band or is that what you >> Well, yes, I did do that for a while actually. You know, I you know, uh like everybody else, I was smitten by the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and uh and uh yeah, we had a me and two friends. In fact, it expanded to three friends. Uh you know, I got a bass gear.

[00:23:52]I thought that looks easy bass. I thought I'll never learn chords.

[00:23:58]Uh, I'll get a B. I got a second hand Framer star base from a place called Renos which dealt in re repro repo >> right >> guitars where they hadn't completed the payments or whatever you know and uh and yeah bought the one pickup version of the bass that Bill Wyman was using.

[00:24:20]>> I was I was about to say that which is funny because that you picked Bill Wyman's base seeing as that you look like another Rolling Stone. Well, that was that was the the intention. I would have been very flattered if you'd have said I look like one of the Rolling Stones.

[00:24:34]>> What was the Manchester what was the Manchester scene in the mid60s because everyone was looking at Liverpool. What what was what was coming out of Manchester?

[00:24:40]>> Oh, Manchester had loads of clubs and loads of bands and it was always a very musicorient orientated city.

[00:24:47]>> Was the spinning wheel wasn't that >> the twisted wheel?

[00:24:51]>> The twisted wheel.

[00:24:52]>> I lived in that joint. That was my that that really was you know uh the place that I lived in you know you know like you had the blitz Gary and >> you know you the Roxy before that >> special places you know but but the twisted wheel was like not nothing it was a whole wide world opening up I mean imagine if you've never heard James Brown before >> you know that's incred you you know, I thought, what is this? And uh you know, the the first introduction to what is now known as Northern Soul even, you know, uh >> right >> uh if you've never heard, it's impossible for you to imagine uh uh >> because the references were just sort of things like Billy Cotton and you know, >> Well, no, I'm talking about post rock and roll even, you know, before that's all you'd ever heard.

[00:25:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. But they they play, you know, as I say, uh um you know, music that you just didn't hear hear anywhere else. Not on the radio, not in any other clubs. And it was all thanks to a guy called Roger Eagle.

[00:26:06]>> Yes.

[00:26:06]>> Uh and and in London, Guy Stevens.

[00:26:11]>> Yes.

[00:26:11]>> Where have I heard Roger Eagle's name before, guy? I can't. He came up somewhere.

[00:26:15]>> Any anyone in Manchester and in Liverpool, everyone, they all talk about Roger Eagle. he's came up with uh he's come with anyone we speak to from now on >> you know he would bring when those records that that he that he amassed you know and this I think this is why Liverpool and Manchester and Glasgow to a an extent as well those westernf facing ports they would use those records along with comic books as ballast they were seen as worthless >> you know remainder records that nobody didn't just didn't click outside of the G, you know, in in the States, but they got came over here and they were chang, you know, Daryl Bank, Open the Door to Your Heart by Daryl Banks, you know, you weren't here yet. Garnet Nims, you know, you did these people, you know, there was like a this whole world opened up with that music for me.

[00:27:15]>> What about the Goons? Did they Did they >> Oh, I love the Goons. I like I like I like the Ying song. We had the EP. We had the EP with the Ying song and I'm walking backwards to Christmas major blood knocks rock and roll rumba. But it was the Ying song that did it for me >> because I was thinking about, you know, how some of what John Lennon was was >> some of what John Lennon was doing reminds me of what you ended up doing as well.

[00:27:42]>> Do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Messing about with like the goons. Yeah.

[00:27:46]>> Yeah. I tell you another one. Stan Leon will it Steve Maria?

[00:27:50]>> Steve. Yeah. Ductton Knuck on Flake. Ogdton's Nut on Flake.

[00:27:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. That sort of uh fondness they have for British accents.

[00:28:01]>> Yeah. Was it Who was that other comedian who used to make music with the spoken word? Was it Stanley English? Was it uh Brown Boots? I'm thinking >> Oh, Stanley Stanley. No, St. He said Stanley Baldwin know he's the guy that wanted you don't know [ __ ] all about it.

[00:28:21]>> Who was it? Yeah.

[00:28:23]>> Um he Yeah, he was Stanley Holloway.

[00:28:27]>> Stanley Holloway.

[00:28:28]>> Stanley Hol career after that. He was in My Fair Lady, wasn't he? Was >> that's right.

[00:28:34]>> He was uh Eliza's dad. But that that you could listen to that album and I can see the kind of throughine to what you're doing. You know that there's a kind of comic you you know sort of talking about the working classes state of the working class if you like in a in a Yeah, sure.

[00:28:53]Absolutely. Social references. Well, I always this is what I always intended why I always intended to decl in in the in in places of entertainment because I thought that it really is the only way that you you could get people interested in poetry. And it does have its precedents like you say even in the musical of yesterday year people like Harry Champion and uh Gus Een the singing custom monger you know they all did monologues even Max Miller you know would do uh rude monologues >> but even Sirill Fletcher >> so there is quite there is quite a tradition of uh entertaining poetry but the and the good When remember when we were a kid, they used to have the good old days on TV and whoever it was who was the MC of that. I mean, the language the language of all his just the introductions was >> Oh, yeah. Leonard Sachs.

[00:29:49]>> Yeah.

[00:29:51]>> Pret.

[00:30:00]It's kind of what you do though, John.

[00:30:02]You take the everyday and the mundane and you make it grand. Right.

[00:30:05]>> I hope I do. I hope I do, Gary. Yeah, that's part of the plan.

[00:30:10]>> And there's something about rhyme that when you say it, it just hits home even harder, doesn't it?

[00:30:16]>> Thanks. Means a lot. Thank you, G.

[00:30:18]You've written many fine songs.

[00:30:22]>> But there's a particular thing you have which is really which is where you relentlessly hammer a rhyme. You know what I mean? Again and again and again.

[00:30:30]>> Bring it up. Wear it out. It in this dog world I care about. Wasn't Wasn't there a moment, John?

[00:30:41]>> Wasn't there a moment, John, when when you when you saw Ronny Wood and and you decided that that was your look?

[00:30:47]>> Oh, absolutely. It was when he was in the Birds.

[00:30:50]When he was in the Birds, you know, Leaving Here they had a a single out 1965.

[00:30:58]>> Yeah. Hit hitish.

[00:30:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Had a real heavy, you know, power cord riff going. great record, but he looked great and it was and it was I went to see him at a club called the Oasis, another one a competitor with the twisted wheel almost next door. And the birds were on thought, "Oh, that's a good idea." We This is what I mean. Manchester was rich in clubs where uh where combos various combos could play. So we we we did get Liverpool bands playing there. Yes, it's true. We had the Hollies, Freddy and the Dreamers who had been going years before, you know, they were kind of Teddy Boys went to see them and things like that in 195, >> you know, and uh and Herman and the Hermits, as they were called, they had a kind of Peteron.

[00:31:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. They had a residency every Friday night at the plaza or a Mecca dance hall and uh you know, they did like 20 minutes of Gothin and King sort of covers, you know, they were great.

[00:31:56]Even then they were really polished, you know, her but they were called Herman and the Hermits then, >> right? So, so we had our own thing going. No doubt about it. You know, it wasn't it wasn't Mury Beat all the way.

[00:32:09]But like the Twisted Wheel though, that was a step in another dimension, you know, soul music, you know, most >> who was in the Birds then. This is Bird spelt conventionally. I don't know who else was in it apart from Ron bass, >> but it was it was Ron that made their name make sense, you know, because he was a bit beaky like, you know, as you probably noticed, you know, I also had difficult hair, you know, the only way my hair would do anything is if it's if I allowed it to stick up, you know, had that kind of hair. So, ever since then, you know, I've had the same wardrobe kind of as him, you know.

[00:32:52]Uh, >> I This is so true, John. So, basically, you're wearing a beat type uniform from 1965. And then, and then 10 years later, it's fashionable again with punk.

[00:33:04]>> What I've done, >> and then 20 odd years later, it's fashionable again with the Arctic Monkeys.

[00:33:09]>> I'm on a loop, so Yeah. Yeah. Wait a minute. Well, was that whole thing?

[00:33:14]Blues Brothers, Men in Black or you know.

[00:33:16]>> Well, it's the craze.

[00:33:18]>> Yeah. Just >> Oh, the craze.

[00:33:20]>> You You know, you if you travel, you you got to really have a a capsule wardrobe.

[00:33:25]You got to think maintenance, don't you?

[00:33:28]You know. So, I've got I've got, you know, it's easy to do you really. I mean, look at this coat. Totally unstructured. I could screw it up and throw it in a case, put it on it same as it ever was. You know, Oxford shirts, you must know that. They never need ironing. They never Nothing I've got needs ironing. I just thought about now.

[00:33:50]Never never realized till I got anything that need >> genius. So, when did you what what was the context when you first decided to get up on stage? What was it? I mean, was it a poetry thing? Was it band thing? Did >> Well, yes, I did. I did go into a poetry thing. Um, it was uh it was a benefit for uh I was sweet on this beatnick girl called uh Christine Peele. Has she been in a poem? Yeah, kind of indirectly.

[00:34:20]Yeah, she's in my book anyway, my autobiography.

[00:34:25]She g me got me my first got a reading get that give me the bug. So, it was this beatnick joint. She was she was running running running this magazine, you know, ban my bomb comic.

[00:34:39]So they they needed funds and uh you know, I did this benefit. It was featuring me and this uh fabulous band called uh uh the Victor Brooks Stadley, the late Victor Bro, the Victor Brooks Blues Train. And uh they were terrific band. Uh so it was them and me but uh and my and like my dad who's who always tried to put me off this idea of earning a living as a poet.

[00:35:06]>> It's very discouraging.

[00:35:08]>> My thoughts just gone. Hang on. I'll be right back.

[00:35:10]>> So uh All right. Shall I shall I hold things up?

[00:35:13]>> No, just keep talking.

[00:35:15]>> So yeah, he just discouraged me at Edmonton. You Nobody ever made a living out of poetry, name one. So I was all like not not that my dad knew any poet Shakespeare you know. So I said uh Phil Phillip Lin.

[00:35:31]So he he found out from somebody I don't know that Philip Larkin he's he's a librarian you know he's sort of like earning a living making writing poetry. So I'm well this that and the other no he's a school teacher and blah blah blah.

[00:35:46]Nobody was making a living making po, you know, writing poetry until Pame started winning on Opportunity Knox.

[00:35:54]>> Yes.

[00:35:55]>> But I could say, "There you go. She's doing >> I mean, John Bcherman was always on >> He was always on telly. Yeah, that's right. But he seemed like it inherited a degree of wealth that had that shambolic >> where Pame was workingass.

[00:36:10]>> That's right. But you know, John B had that shambolic approach that only the aristocracy could afford to adopt, you know, the the threadbear tweeds, you know, the slightly hesitant manner.

[00:36:25]But I thought it was part of his jam. I tell you one thing about John Benjamin.

[00:36:28]Now you mentioned that he did them telly things.

[00:36:32]It was completely at home with that new medium, wasn't he? For all he was kind of shambolic, you know, a bit shabby.

[00:36:39]Well, he wasn't. And he made those documentaries about train rides, didn't he? And he >> fabulous.

[00:36:43]>> Yeah.

[00:36:44]>> Weren't some of them weren't they financed by Shell Oil?

[00:36:47]>> But can I say though, John, you're not that dissimilar yourself really, are you? Because you know, we see you on game shows, we see you on TV, we've seen you documentaries, you know, >> I don't want to I I will say National Treasure, but it is kind of what is kind of what you >> are you you're happy in that role.

[00:37:04]>> What national treasure?

[00:37:06]>> Well, you know, I think I've got a line about it. Uh what is the uh uh a diamond geyser who never got the polish a national treasure? It's a pleasure to to demolish it. I'm abolished a longer work.

[00:37:27]>> But I think the other thing about Benjamin is he was it was about the everyday, wasn't it? Same as Lin. It was about every Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, he was terrific.

[00:37:36]He made he made you have it. I love that that one about the country club Joan Hunter done.

[00:37:43]I can't remember what it's called now.

[00:37:45]The romance in suburbia I think when suburbia was a kind of n you can imagine it being really tidy and sun sunlit. You know I used to dream of living in a suburb. I lived in the city and apartments. So you know to me suburbs were not a bigger of fun. I you know I went to Withershore once which was an overspill corporation estate in Manchester. I went with a mate of mine who was uh and I'd heard all these horror stories about Wenshore. So it's the birthplace of slaughter and the dogs.

[00:38:19]>> Johnny Mark has some Wither Shaw, doesn't he? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he had this real bad reputation. I mean I live in Sulford nobody bringing me any s you know but we went there. I couldn't believe how green and expel, you know, grass and mature trees. And the reason we were going there was because he had a Saturday job at caddying. So I thought, what they got a [ __ ] golf club as well?

[00:38:46]These [ __ ] don't know when they were off.

[00:38:50]>> And what about punk, John? How did when when did you first become aware of that and think this is my scene? Oh, well, I was talked into it originally by uh Howard Devoto, who was the original singer with the with the Buzz. Yeah.

[00:39:04]>> And he said, you know, you should get involved with with with us, Johnny. You know, anyway, they used to rehearse near where I live. Uh he says, "You you know, cuz I was I wanted I was trying to make it as a nightclub entertainer at the time."

[00:39:20]>> What's the Bernab Benn 1975? Well, he gave me my first page.

[00:39:24]>> That's right. Thanks for bringing me back on on the on a circular conversation when he was saying about you know my first gigs and I did this beatnick gig and uh so I so my dad said I said to I said I've got a professional recital coming up dad he says uh he says how much are you getting for that I said uh oh nothing dad it's a it's a benefit you know everybody's giving their services for free you know about this Left wing magazine.

[00:39:57]He said he said, "Well, well, anybody would employ you for nothing.

[00:40:05]Best advice I ever had, actually." And then, so then I thought, excuse me. Slurp. Slurp.

[00:40:14]>> Then I thought, well, who would impress my dad as being a kind of northern entertainer who's done all right? you know, that he would take seriously as a as a big hitter in the entertainment world. And there was one guy and one guy only, >> Bernard Manning.

[00:40:35]>> He was the first guy to give me cash money for doing what I do.

[00:40:39]>> Where did you fit in on that? Were you performing in front of >> I went around in the afternoon. I went around. I'd never been to the college parade before, you know, which is very rough. It's the poorest place to live actually in the entire UK where well Ernard's Club anyway you're looking for trouble you go around there you know and uh but you know I I went there on my bike and uh I knew he'd be there like watering down the optics or do whatever these whatever the club owners do when nobody So no only kidding he was a straight straight businessman. man. And so I said to him, you know, um I told him what I did. Anyway, he says, uh, he said, "They don't like poetry. They don't like poetry here, kid. Half of them can't [ __ ] read."

[00:41:34]So I said, "No, it's nothing too high for Looting." Now, here this was my plan. See, I knew that Bernard Mannings entered show business, not as a comedian, as a singer, as a featured singer in a dance band that did the entire Mecca circuit, which is, you know, nationwide. and he was a member of uh the Oscar Rabin band and uh very very well-known very respected band up there with Joel Ross any of them you know and did all the Mecca ball rooms and all those bands featured a close harmony group comprising two men and a woman uh for instance Joe the Joe Los orchestra where Elvis Costello's dad was uh you Ross Manis was the uh involved in just such a setup there. Uh you had Ross McManis. Um uh the other guy was Larry Gretton and I think it was Rose Brennan was the uh the girl, but they all had these club based on Mel Tommy, you know, the Mel.

[00:42:41]>> You'd always get it and and like if you're listening to Around the Horn, you know, there's always that moment when the when that close harmony group comes and sings a twe song. That would have been the Mike Sans sing something simple.

[00:42:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. That was George Mitchell.

[00:42:57]>> George Mitchell. Sing something simple.

[00:43:00]>> Oh, was it? No, it wasn't their show on radio too.

[00:43:02]>> Don't get into an argument with John.

[00:43:03]>> No, you're right. You're right.

[00:43:04]>> Rock with a semi-professional.

[00:43:10]>> No, but so so I knew this. I was forearmmed with this knowledge, but Bernard was actually fantastic singer.

[00:43:18]And uh so I knew he'd been all all around the Mecca circuit. And I just written that uh Salomi, it's called uh El Sup Preo of the Ritz and I knew that he'd worked at the Ritz in Man, which it's now an indie group venue now in Manchester, but back then it was the governor Mecca dance hall.

[00:43:41]And I knew for a fact that Bernard had featured there as a singer. So uh I'd written this poem anyway. I say so it's nothing too high for loot in Mr. Mming.

[00:43:49]Uh I'll give you a demo. He says go on then. So and this couplet appears in in in the poem when the ambulance is about a punch up in a dance hall. You know get murder on the dance floor. In fact years predating so anyway it's about a punch up on the dance floor. Mr. Manning. Anyway, it features these these two lines. When the ambulances came, she was lying on the deck. She fell off her stiletto heels and broke her [ __ ] neck. He said, "All right, I'll give it a go."

[00:44:26]Your dad would have been proud.

[00:44:29]So, he's the first guy to pay me for doing what I do.

[00:44:33]>> And how did it go down? In total indifference.

[00:44:40]terrible.

[00:44:41]>> I wasn't put off, you know what I mean?

[00:44:43]I got cash money for it and uh you know that was a really in at the deep end with that crowd. You know, he tried to he tried to put me off and I didn't listen, you know, and my ambition got the better of me. But even so, I wasn't downhearted, you know. Those beatnicks were very enthusiastic.

[00:45:00]The other trick was to get those beatnicks to [ __ ] pay cash money when with my name above some kind of uh canopy.

[00:45:09]>> So did that mean something to you when when sort of Alan Ginsburg did you know the what was that? Was it the Alip Pali one he he he he he did or the Albert Hall wasn't it?

[00:45:19]>> Albert Hall they're all Albert Hall was a big poetry >> which is kind of as you know which is sort of seen as the start of the massive counterculture thing. Michael Hor, the late Michael Horovitz got got that together, didn't he? Albert Holmes.

[00:45:33]>> Was that an influence on you, John?

[00:45:35]>> Well, I saw it on TV when it went when it went out. When would it have been that in 56 or >> 66? Yeah.

[00:45:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it was it was on some it was on some art program. I think it might have been uh a program called Tempo which was a sort of art slot program on ITV >> and I think I saw saw something about it on that. Yeah. Good. What about punk?

[00:45:59]Let's talk about punk cuz that was such a you know that's when I would have seen you, you know, when I was following those bands around >> and you you said Howard had got you on and to um to be involved >> because I was dressed as a because I was dressed as a a cabaret. what my idea of a cabri entertainer ought to look like which was modeled on Anthony Nulie in the movie the small world of Sammy Lee.

[00:46:23]>> Fantastic film.

[00:46:24]>> Oh fantastic. One of the great but where did you see that film?

[00:46:28]>> Uh I saw it at the Royalto in Higher Bro and Salt.

[00:46:34]>> Uh but it's been on TV a lot since then.

[00:46:36]>> Big influence on both. I'm amazed how how how not known that film is. I mean to me it's like literally one of the greatest films of the 50s. It's Keith Waterhouse and Willis Hall, isn't it?

[00:46:47]>> Yeah.

[00:46:48]>> Same thing.

[00:46:48]>> Bowie. Bowie referenced that as an influence.

[00:46:51]>> Pardon?

[00:46:52]>> Bowie referenced.

[00:46:54]>> So, yeah. Well, Anthony Newy was >> Yeah.

[00:46:57]>> quite the influence on David Bowie, wasn't it?

[00:47:00]>> That singing in your own accent, >> you know, it's quite a trick.

[00:47:05]>> So, you were doing suddenly found yourself doing gigs with the BuzzCoxs and >> Yeah. I was, you know, I I already looked right cuz I had an Ivy League suit, you know. I had a tonic suit in fact, you know, three button coat, you know, and short hair. I had it kind of feathered.

[00:47:21]That unisex hair stylist were were getting big. And I knew I knew one of the hairdressers. And I went into the girls section and got it cut like a like a swayed head chick. Not a sort. had it put like a sword.

[00:47:38]>> Bit feather.

[00:47:39]>> Was that a bit ratty at the back?

[00:47:41]>> Yeah. Ratty at the back and head chick.

[00:47:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mod. Yeah. Yeah. But what bands did you play with in those in those in the 70s? When where were you just the Roxy? We down there and I went to the Roxy once or twice. Yeah.

[00:48:00]I think my first sort of club gig in London would have been what I did the Nashville uh the roundhouse and uh what was the one that started at was it knickers >> I don't remember Nickers that's a night >> maybe I'm thinking of somewhere else anyway Johnny was on the same night on that >> oh terrific night >> but so you're supporting people though at these games right Yeah.

[00:48:32]>> And and when when did when did you start to then make your f you know people come to you and say can you write we want to publish this or did it start with records? It started with records right >> started with records. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:48:44]Cuz like I say it is a phonetic medium.

[00:48:47]And then we did the you know uh the music wasn't my idea you know to be honest. uh you know I was had to be talked into that and uh you know sometimes it's great and other times I feel like it kind of and I feel like I got a foot nailed to the floor you know but you know there's some good bits of that musical stuff >> we had a good musicians were all kind of guests from other bands you know Burns out of the >> Steve Morris out of New Order and uh but mainly the the main supply of musicians came from uh the Douggee James soul train.

[00:49:26]The late Douggee James sadly. Yeah, Douggee James. He had a group. He was uh he was a he was he was a character. He was he was out of Wither show. Douggee James had a he had a you know the fro he he met uh he met uh they used to do all like Gamble and Hoof and uh and uh a medley from hair you know Aquarius >> but you you you had didn't you have Bill Nelson from but Bbop Deluxe and Pete Shelly Bill's on it. Yeah, Bill Nelson.

[00:49:59]Some real good cameos on it. Bill Nelson.

[00:50:04]Uh >> I was saying to a guy earlier that that that it seemed to suit the time cuz Johnny Rotten had a kind of spoken word vibe to his his singing, didn't he?

[00:50:14]>> Public the public image thing.

[00:50:16]>> Well, that but even in the pistol. Well, he kind of invented a kind of singing, Johnny, didn't it? There really kind of established some kind of style there.

[00:50:26]Fantastic. I mean, you look at Liam's voice, it's kind of half each, isn't it?

[00:50:30]Johnny and John Lennon.

[00:50:33]>> Anyway, actually, someone I would say who had that before on the other stuff is Brian Ferry.

[00:50:38]>> Oh, fabulous Brian.

[00:50:41]Fantastic. He never overd does anything.

[00:50:44]>> Well, like every dream over heartache.

[00:50:46]>> Exactly. So, that's And actually, do the strands is practically a poem.

[00:50:50]>> Dystopian every dream over heartache. Exactly.

[00:50:55]Yeah. That what do the strand >> is it on does he it he does the in crowd doesn't he covers >> that is a great song that a great >> it's a great so great one of the great riffs >> were you writing about other people John or and rarely about yourself >> yeah that that's an interesting question uh Gary very very intelligent question and I think what what I do is uh I don't think you should look for me in any of my poems you know because I think if you're For a poet, sometimes you got to get an angle on something. It requires that you in you inhabit the mind of somebody you could never know.

[00:51:34]You know what I mean? You're putting words in somebody with strangers, but you know, I mean, some you have to be an adopter of positions. I think that's the best way I can put it, right? You know, and what would this guy say? How would he put it? You know, and Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I am. I can only think of two poems where I where I'm in it where that actually come straight from my heart as a as a stand up as a standalone person. And one is I've fallen in love with my wife.

[00:52:08]>> Oh yeah.

[00:52:09]>> And the other one is pies.

[00:52:12]>> Pies? Why pies?

[00:52:13]>> I eat a lot of pies.

[00:52:15]>> I'm very enthusiastic about them.

[00:52:17]>> I find that hard to believe. I love I love I fall I've fallen in love with my wife.

[00:52:23]>> Yeah.

[00:52:25]>> A football snack of choice, isn't it?

[00:52:27]>> Do Do you um do you could you give us a bit of that, John? Is that what pies?

[00:52:32]Yeah. Go on. Of course I can. Yeah.

[00:52:34]Yeah. Yeah. I've got it in here, I think. Which book is it in my in my >> Is it in this one?

[00:52:40]>> Pies.

[00:52:42]Or is it in The Luckiest Guy Alive?

[00:52:48]A homely girl named Liisa. Couldn't get Yeah. Can you get it?

[00:52:54]This one's available in the book. A luckiest guy alive.

[00:53:00]>> Not the loneliest guy.

[00:53:02]>> Never.

[00:53:03]>> You never.

[00:53:04]>> There was a There was a Bowie song.

[00:53:10]>> Here it is. Pies.

[00:53:13]A homely girl named Leisa couldn't get a gizer. Her mother told her, "Darling, don't you cry. You could knock them down like Skittles with some finacious bitles. You'll always get a guy with a pie. When rules of engagement don't apply, and your best moves fail to catch his eye. Start rolling out that dough and he'll never let you go. You'll always get a guy with a pie. The salad's in the bin. I've never seen a gym, but I'll be there to watch those [ __ ] die. But I feel fine except I'm hungry all the time. And you'll always get a guy with a pie. Please God, I shall be going by and by to that massive cafeteria in the sky. There'll be tea and angel cake, but hey, give me a break. You'll always get a guy on high with a pie. You'll always get a guy with a pie. Even when they're stale, they taste okay with ale. At the point where hunger pangs intensify cold weather with a grub that may be eaten in a public house, you'll always get a pie guy with a pie. You'll always get a guy with a pie. What else you going to do with that leftover stew and those cuts of meat you can't identify?

[00:54:41]Ingredients of this sort just taste better under short crust. You'll always get a guy with a eye spy with my little eye. Something beginning with oh I you'll always get a guy with a pie. Ah, >> you know, music can't come across when we do when we work on this format, but poetry definitely can. And that's fantastic.

[00:55:05]>> It's got a window in there, Gary. You know what's what what you notice when you read immediately is for me as a musician, I'm sure guy as well, you just think, well, you can put that to music so easily because they it sounds like it needs a Well, it has got a tune. I can hear it >> on its own.

[00:55:23]>> And obviously I'm I can I think it's amazing what what Arctic Monkeys did with I Want to Be Yours because >> I can't. If you listen to I Want to Be Yours with you, I've seen a video of you doing it live on stage, you know, in the late '7s or something >> and it's, you know, it's it's it's aggressive and it's funny. Converting it into a song by not doing >> very much, but it very much is a song the way I, you know, I wish I had done it like that those that little middle eight and what have you, you know, and all his little flourish all the flourishes that he adds to it. Plus, he's give it a great tune and he's got a terrific voice. So I can't thank him enough for doing that.

[00:56:05]>> And and I bet it has because there's been some royalties.

[00:56:09]>> It's in Well, I'm not I'm not on points.

[00:56:12]I will admit, but but you know, I'm doing all right. Don't worry about me.

[00:56:18]>> But uh the main thing the main thing with me is it's had uh 4 billion hits.

[00:56:24]>> Yeah.

[00:56:25]>> You know, streams. Four billion streams.

[00:56:28]I don't even know what that means. But if it means that four billion people are have been famili familiarized with some of my lyrics, well, what poet could ask for more than that when it in terms of exposure?

[00:56:43]>> Incredible.

[00:56:43]>> That sounds like a subject for a poet for you. Four billion streams.

[00:56:47]>> It is, is it?

[00:56:48]>> Yeah.

[00:56:49]>> Yeah.

[00:56:50]>> That's half the population of the world in it.

[00:56:52]>> But he added he added some sort of demonic quality to it, didn't he? And uh in a way it is very much in every dream heartache, isn't it? There's a there's a bit >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:03]>> There is an element of that.

[00:57:07]>> It's kind of uh reducing yourself to a a commodity for the object of your desire.

[00:57:14]>> Did he get in touch, John? Did you meet them? And >> Oh, yeah. See, meet him a lot. Yeah.

[00:57:19]Yeah. In fact, uh I met it we met Niko Mali uh the night before last in uh in Amsterdam actually.

[00:57:29]So yeah. Yeah, I do run into them individually and collectively. Yeah.

[00:57:33]Yeah.

[00:57:34]>> Talking about Amsterdam, you lived there for Did you live there for a while?

[00:57:37]>> Well, also you just said Niko Mali, which sorry does have the word Niko.

[00:57:44]>> I love a coincidence.

[00:57:46]Um, >> did you do you because you lived because that was in Amsterdam. You went to Amsterdam with her with with Nico.

[00:57:54]>> No, I didn't live in No, I lived in Brixton when Nico moved in. Yeah.

[00:57:58]>> How did that happen? How did you come How did you uh We had the same manager for a while and she lived in a part of town where I kind of near where I grew up really, but I was live by that time.

[00:58:09]I was uh living in Brixton. had an apartment in Brixton and uh she'd uh gone on tour uh Italy. So just a couple of weeks in Italy, involved a couple of weeks in Italy.

[00:58:27]And uh when she got back, she she'd neglected to pay her rent kind of uh covering her absence. So she'd been evicted, but she didn't have much stuff, so she stuck that in somebody else's house. and uh and kind of I was you know she moved in with me after that but she didn't have any stuff at all can't remember anything she didn't have any luggage but you were a fan of the velvets obviously >> oh absolutely I love that band yeah sensational I love and and you know she made her presence count there as well but I was aware of Nico even before the Velvets uh she was on Ready Steady Go I think she released a couple of singles on the immediate label, you know, >> no I look Yeah. You know, they they did a lot of good stuff, didn't they? Chris Farac Stevens, I think, but uh Nico, she brought she brought out that uh beautiful song. Very kind of wistful song. I'm not saying it's called, but she came across like as a, you know, a kind of barefoot contest on that, you know, Euro your European indiscriminate European uh uh foot loose boho >> glamour girl. She was actually one of the 10 most beautiful women in the world in the days of uh Rajie Bardau and Katherine >> D. M she was >> she was in that list. So beautiful girl.

[01:00:02]But I loved her voice, you know. It was it was very uh it seemed very incon that that a woman would have that voice.

[01:00:12]>> But were you were you were you were you lovers, John? Were you boyfriend and girlfriend? Were you just >> No, we didn't. The the corporeal world was uh was out of the question, you know. We we we were both uh heroin users. Right.

[01:00:29]>> So it just never even really got on the radar by mutual conceit >> because you you you had a great what a great drug.

[01:00:42]>> You had a you had a run in with with a famous American jazz musician as well.

[01:00:46]>> Yeah. Check big. But it took me 30 years to realize that uh that's who it was because you know he was obviously made of uh Nikos and she knew everybody Nico Fred Rico Fellini Shet you know you name it.

[01:01:04]Unbelievable. All the glamorous people I ever met really were indirectly to do with with I think but yeah check you know we were well did I meet CH? I bought drugs off Jet Baker, you know, he was our connection out there cuz Nico was all like, uh, let's pull our money more that way. I know somebody have to vape for him. He will be vaging for us, but that never happens.

[01:01:38]>> I'm waiting for your own.

[01:01:40]>> Don't you listen to those lyrics, your bandmates lyrics. that neighbor.

[01:01:46]>> Exactly.

[01:01:47]>> But, you know, it didn't happen. You know, and I was on a like a cheap suit.

[01:01:51]You know, you said he'd be waiting for us.

[01:01:54]>> We've all got connections in this is Amsterdam.

[01:01:58]>> We've all got connections.

[01:02:01]>> Was he I mean, was he playing even at that time? I know he was just tedious.

[01:02:04]>> I thought he was one of the many dra dodging hippie layer belts that that populated Amsterdam at the time. You know, he had a headband on, no teeth at the front. He looked like Giron's ugly kid brother, but you know, so but I remembered him because the last time I'd seen a picture of [ __ ] he looked like the James Dean of the Men Jazzwood. Oh, it's just unbelievably many [ __ ] magnets in the world of jazz, but he was one of them.

[01:02:39]>> And then how did you know it was him?

[01:02:40]You didn't know?

[01:02:41]>> I didn't They didn't look anything like my like my uh you know what I I I didn't know about the the missing se you know. So when I found out was 30 years later I bought the movie Let's Get Lost. You know the Bruce Weber >> thing is a cut up thing of [ __ ] then and now and that's only then did I real oh my god >> so that's check now I bought stuff off that guy you know yeah he he was and then I reflected on it and he never spoke above a guy hey just looked up hi you know just like you'd expect but uh to 30 years now I'm watching this I called my wife and I said sing that check bit there he is yeah I mean I said well I bought dope off him in Amsterdam so uh and then he came on at the end of the film you know two two two years after the completion of this film fell out of an apartment a window in Amsterdam so yeah been obviously been uh living there because of the availability of the ugly stuff, I suppose.

[01:04:00]>> Go on. But um do you when you found that out, did it make you think actually you wouldn't have been so cross about him being late?

[01:04:09]>> He was he was about four minutes late.

[01:04:12]>> That's a long time for a junkie.

[01:04:14]>> Yeah.

[01:04:17]>> Talking about But that about that though, you know, >> but your life must your life completely changed though, didn't it? Because you know by 1988 you're doing like a Sugar Puffs ad you know you and you you couldn't get less junky.

[01:04:31]>> Oh I don't know that's that's pretty junky food.

[01:04:34]>> Yeah yeah.

[01:04:35]>> What kind of puffs?

[01:04:36]>> Pure energy should you?

[01:04:38]>> It's your best friend.

[01:04:40]>> But you were managing to keep that career going at the same time though.

[01:04:43]>> Incredible though it was. Yeah.

[01:04:45]Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:04:48]Ridiculous.

[01:04:48]>> But you but but you said but you stopped being creative. You thought you stopped writing hadn't you? for a while. Well, I would write odd sort of uh um things that weren't poetry, you know, magazine [ __ ] or a forward to I kept my hand in. I had to work, you know, I had a habit and you know, decreasing funds.

[01:05:12]Was there a time of I had to I never stopped sort of working. was always kind of slogging my stuff through but that's when I sort of perfected the art of stretching out the stuff between the poems you know which was sort of very often specific to the night so really in my trajectory it's good that I had those wilderness years when because you know I think I had to substitute output I had you know nature hates a a vacuum cleaner and to I had the sort of what I didn't have in output. I had to sort of stretch out using technique alone and that meant social skills like uh you know uh gags and what have you.

[01:05:56]>> Well, how much do you see yourself as banter? How much do you see yourself as a comedian?

[01:06:01]>> John, are you do you see yourself as a comedian at times? Is that part of the job?

[01:06:05]>> I Well, that's what I mean. I I I did develop skills in that direction simply because I didn't have the the amount of of uh material poet poetic material to really keep grinding it out.

[01:06:20]I think in a way what you do would be something that actually comes and I speak as someone who's done my show is that you're incredibly lucky in that in that you touch on comedy but you're not a comedian. So it's almost like >> a comedian who doesn't have to be funny.

[01:06:37]I've always got the safety net of a poem. You know, this ain't going nowhere. I tell you, so sometimes I like the failures. They're kind of funny for me.

[01:06:48]I get I do it on purpose sometime.

[01:06:50]That's how good I am. I [ __ ] my own gig up.

[01:06:56]>> I bet you're very careful about where you do that though, don't be >> an instance. So it's real what I used to do with my late sadden and my late best friend Johnny who died recently but we used to >> get a real bang out of this what it's a crib from the Simpsons and what it is it's uh uh you ask somebody in the front row what's what's the mayor's stage whisper what's the mayor's name right and they tell you you know uh Harry B or whatever you know and then you go hey that sideb bound. He's some golfer. His golf ball spends more time under water than Greg Luganis.

[01:07:41]>> Nobody ever gets it.

[01:07:43]>> It's a real tumble weed moment.

[01:07:45]>> But who's Greg Lu Gaines?

[01:07:47]>> A bit of relief, you know, from the relentless hilarity. I love I love those [ __ ] moments. And I got one that I thought I was really proud of this gag.

[01:07:57]I'd only made it up that day, but I was in Holland, you know, where English isn't the first language, but it was a learning experience. So, the line was a a one time I thought I saw Shar and M in the Sahara Desert. Turned out to be a a Mirage swear.

[01:08:19]>> All right.

[01:08:21]It went down even worse than that.

[01:08:24]>> Right.

[01:08:26]But what I learned was they don't know about the Three Stooges in Holland.

[01:08:30]>> The Three Stooges, of course. Yeah.

[01:08:32]>> But hang on, I still want to know who that person was before. Lou Gaines.

[01:08:36]>> Greg Luganis.

[01:08:37]>> Greg Lug went a dive on Olympic diver and I think he hit his head on the on a lower diving board on the way down and uh stayed under water longer than was necessary. Oh >> jeez. Which Olympics is this? Sort of Munich 1936.

[01:08:55]What's that?

[01:08:57]>> Which which Olympics was that?

[01:08:58]>> I can't remember. It must have been in the 80s. Do you reckon? 80s. Late 80s.

[01:09:03]>> John, have you What about the the new You got a new book coming out, haven't you? Um, >> what's it called? Have it. Have it.

[01:09:10]>> Have it. And And how much is your writing is your writing changing now? I mean, you know, with kind of, you know, culture wars going on and all the the, you know, the madness that we live in right now that's constantly on our phones as well, >> does it make writing harder or easier?

[01:09:26]>> Well, I ain't got a phone, so I live completely. I'm really a man out of time on this, you know. So, no, I'm hermetically sealed in I'm I'm locked up with my own psyche, you know. Uh, whatever anybody says about me, I wouldn't know about it. I wouldn't.

[01:09:45]Frankly, I don't want to know.

[01:09:49]>> No, I don't. God knows what they, you know, but I've never been cancelled.

[01:09:53]>> Have Have you got a little because I know the book's not out yet, but have you have you are you doing any previews?

[01:09:57]Have you got a have you got a poem there?

[01:09:59]>> Sure, I have. Yeah.

[01:10:00]>> Give a little taste of what's coming.

[01:10:02]>> Got uh Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got I got a couple here. I'll give you some of the titles.

[01:10:10]A chief agnostic funeral. The idiocy of rural life recently confirmed bachelor guilt. Everybody suck but for us sequence net zero anti-hero.

[01:10:25]Hey stupid advice to the suede shoe wearer. A sudden change of attitude. Eel douchebag the eel douchebag. Go on then. Yes. You seem to latch on to that then. Eel doucheb bag it is.

[01:10:48]Yeah. Yeah. Douchebag.

[01:10:51]What the hell? A sudden change of it frame sequence net zero something.

[01:11:09]I can't believe what I left out. Sudden change about it too is that it'll douchebag.

[01:11:20]Yeah.

[01:11:22]Every man's a fascist a thousand times a day when our benevolent facilities have somehow gone astray. Indulge your inner vigilante. Rid your world of sin. But don't let Mussolini muscle in. Every man's a communist a thousand times a day. Every time the wellto-d do won't give their wealth away. Save your heartbreak, Jim. The pickings may be thin, but don't let muscelini muscle in.

[01:11:52]Reversing into the future a thousand times a day. Any [ __ ] could shoot you.

[01:11:57]Better pray that you can pay some monumental mooch, some pimped up paladin. Don't let muscelini muscle in.

[01:12:07]Time to surrender this regalia and splendor. He was a scooch mender. Now he sets his own agenda. I recommend a futuristic spin. Ease up on the old linguini. Godamn that third martini.

[01:12:22]Don't let musselini muscle in. Every man's a fascist a thousand times per day when the janitors of lunacy can tell you what to say and the fabric of the nation starts to fray. Put your hands up on your hips and stick out your chin. But don't let muscelini muscle in. My dear Pyanos, don't let muscelini muscle in. If you got that men of the gismo that don't go with fascismo, don't let muscelin muscel in.

[01:12:57]>> Bravo, thanks so much.

[01:13:01]>> Thank you for coming on.

[01:13:04]>> So, so the tour you you're playing the London Paladium as well, aren't you? You done that before?

[01:13:08]>> Yeah, we've done I've done I've done that. What is this the fifth time around? Right. Yeah. There's no it's the gold standard of all venues for me any and anybody of my age. But if you want any of the other we're also going to the Pool White Lighthouse, Bristol Beacon, Brighton Theater Royal, London Palladium on the >> I say that's a great one.

[01:13:28]>> What's that one?

[01:13:29]>> Brighton Theater Royal. Love Brighton Theater Royal. Lovely old theater.

[01:13:32]>> Yeah.

[01:13:33]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:34]>> Sorry. Carry on. London Paladium, Sheffield City Hall, Glasggo Pavilion, Carile Old Fire Station, Stoke on Trent, Victoria Hall, which is actually in Hanley, Birmingham Town Hall, Liverpool Filmonic Hall. That's a nice building.

[01:13:49]>> Yeah. Beautiful. Read Varieties, >> home of the good old days. And the four reference.

[01:13:56]>> Ah, there you go.

[01:13:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Lovely theater. I've been there before. Whitley Bay the Playhouse.

[01:14:02]York Grand Opera House. Dublin three Olympia.

[01:14:07]>> Cool.

[01:14:07]>> Belfast Mandela Hall.

[01:14:10]Whackpool Opera House. Manchester 2.

[01:14:13]Apollo Leester de Montford Hall.

[01:14:15]Edinburgh Queens Hall. Is that it anymore?

[01:14:18]>> Well, that enough.

[01:14:20]>> And and your and your and your book new books come new collections coming out, isn't it? In August or something like September or whatever.

[01:14:25]>> When's it out? The new book? October.

[01:14:28]>> October. All right, mate. Well, thank you so much for coming on, John. Been great to have you.

[01:14:33]>> And I hope you're >> When are you going to be poet laurate?

[01:14:38]>> Well, take it up with your with your MP.

[01:14:41]>> We had We had Simon Armitage, John. We had that poet laurate, didn't we? On >> Well, he's pretty good. He deserves he deserves the gig.

[01:14:50]>> We're waiting for you.

[01:14:52]>> Yes.

[01:14:52]>> Okay. Well, >> it's like nice that you poets are supportive.

[01:14:57]>> Not like not like punk bands. It's uh it's a seedthing hotbed of envy and spite.

[01:15:05]I always say to anybody that wants to show me their poetry, I always say, you know, if you do realize that if there's anything any good in here, I'm going to swipe it.

[01:15:15]>> Yeah. And the ball's in their court.

[01:15:19]>> All right, mate. All the best and good luck with the tour. Great, Gary. Great.

[01:15:23]Thank you. Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming on.