What Is Gender If Not Biology?

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]So, folks, we're back at it again with another call from the Transatlantic Callin show. It's a show that I've been hosting co-hosting now for months, and you should you should go check it out.

[00:00:15]Uh there there are lots of different calls there. I've been on several different episodes now. Uh, I co-host I I I I'm trying to co-host every other week. So, uh, you can check that out.

[00:00:27]But the show itself is on every week on Thursday. So, go check it out. And guess what? The show, the Transatlantic Call-in show is on the line. And, uh, if you don't know what that is, there's a link down in the description to the line. It has a lot of different shows on it. uh has a lot of different great content creators, some of whom you may be familiar with, others of whom you may not be. Uh go check it out. Uh there's also a link down there to the Patreon and the merch store.

[00:00:58]A lot of really cool stuff. Uh this particular episode was with Josie Cabayro. Uh go check it out. Jos's also running for office, so go check out Josie and support her candidacy. And of course, also folks, uh, if you don't know what the transatlantic call-in show is, it is a show where people can call in, oddly enough, and ask any question they want about transness, whether it's for advice or they want to have a spicy debate or they have just a genuine question they've always wanted to know or if they've been getting some conflicting information and they don't really know what to believe. we're here to help you out. Um, so call in uh and and let us know what's on your mind. It's a it's a great show. I have enjoyed every single episode I've been on. And uh we get a very wide variety of different calls. So uh of course also like, comment, and subscribe here. Uh but also if you want to check out the full episode, there's a link down in the des description to that, too. So, you know, like, comment, subscribe here, and like, comment, and subscribe over there. It's it's a win-win. Go do the things. And uh you can watch live again every Thursday. Go check that out. And uh I hope you enjoy this uh this back and forth and this call. So, we are going to be talking to Luga. He him from California wants to talk about trans allyship and what it means to be transgender. You are live on the line with Josie and Jack. How are you all?

[00:02:41]>> Hello. Can you hear me?

[00:02:43]>> Yes, we can.

[00:02:44]>> Yeah. Howdy.

[00:02:45]>> Okay. Hi. Um, I just wanted to say right off the bat, I think uh I have a lot of respect for what you guys do and uh I think you provide a very important resource. So, I think it's really cool um what you guys do. And I was just looking for clarification on what exactly it means to um be a certain gender if it is not based in biological reference.

[00:03:16]>> Sure. I will go ahead and just start.

[00:03:18]So, uh Luca, are you uh what what do you identify as? Are you a man?

[00:03:25]Uh yes.

[00:03:26]>> Why?

[00:03:29]>> Um I think that my biology makes me a male and I think that being a male makes me a man.

[00:03:38]>> Okay. So do you so you you are positing that there's no difference between sex and gender?

[00:03:46]Um I would say the only distinction I was make I would make is that um gender only applies to um humans.

[00:03:57]>> Okay, that's fine. I I I can I can I can understand that. So So that's fine. So you do acknowledge that there is a thing called gender.

[00:04:07]>> Um yes.

[00:04:09]>> Okay. So, so I just ask I just ask again is is sex and gender the same?

[00:04:18]>> Um I would say sure for all um >> you know Yeah.

[00:04:23]>> Okay. So do you believe that in society that a lot of people believe that there's a difference between the two >> between sex and gender? No.

[00:04:35]>> Yes. Okay. So, so, so your your understanding of sex and gender are they they are the same. So, when somebody says that there is a difference between sex and gender, you just say no, there's not.

[00:04:52]>> Um, no. Um, I I would be willing to learn otherwise. I just don't get a lot of opportunities to >> um speak to people who think like this.

[00:05:01]>> Okay. No worries. No worries. So, so we we talked about it earlier, too. So, when you walk around in society, right, when you're when you're dealing with human beings out in the world and you see somebody that you perceive as a woman or a man, um, how do you know that they are a woman or a man if you don't have the opportunity to like touch them on the crotch or put your hands on them to find out what their sex is? What do you do?

[00:05:33]>> Yeah. I I would not know. I might like believe a certain thing >> based on what I see about them, but I would have no way of knowing.

[00:05:41]>> Right. So, what you're interacting with >> they were like pregnant or something.

[00:05:46]>> Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, so what you're interacting with is their gender, not their sex.

[00:05:53]Right. Because your if sex and gender were the same, then you would physically have to touch somebody to be able to determine that or like see them without their clothes. In this very simple example, there's a lot of different things about sex, but so so so that on its face is you interacting with someone's gender outside of their sex.

[00:06:15]Would you agree to that?

[00:06:18]Um, I'm I'm not sure only because um I think that people can dress however they like and and you know appear however they like without being a certain gender.

[00:06:34]>> I I I I agree with that, Luka. That's not that's not what I'm that's not what I'm positing because the idea of sex and gender, right? There's the and for people who believe that gender is real and different from sex call it a social construction. The social construction is is how we society identify the gender of people, right?

[00:07:00]And society normally we ask them, right?

[00:07:03]Like if like I asked you if you were a man, right? Because I don't know you're a man other than your word that you said that you're a man, right? That's just how it goes. So, so, so for me, I'm using because I can't physically touch you, see you, have your have your chromosomes, and I have to take your word for it. So, I'm interacting with your gender as Luca, not the biology of Luca. Does that make sense?

[00:07:34]>> Okay. Um, so then when I say like I'm a man or when somebody says they are a woman, >> well, >> and I'm taking their word for it.

[00:07:45]>> Um, >> what exactly are they saying about themselves?

[00:07:50]>> They're saying exactly what you said about yourself, right? You just said you are a man, so therefore you are.

[00:07:56]>> But when I say it, when I say it, I mean something about my biology. But when they say it, they're not referring to biology, right? So, >> can I ask >> Can I ask what about your biology you're refer referring to when you say you're a man? Like when in your mind, what do you think makes you a man?

[00:08:18]>> Um, I think that it would be a group of characteristics um that when enough of these characteristics are met um you would be either a man or a woman, right? So, um physical characteristics are based around either impregnating or um or being pregnant.

[00:08:41]>> So, like if if you say you got into like a motorcycle accident and like your your genitals got shaved off, you lost the ability to like uh impregnate, let's say, just taking at your word here, would you stop being a man?

[00:08:59]>> No. No. Um I don't think >> What else is it? um like infertile people for example, I think they would still be um men and women, right?

[00:09:08]>> Why?

[00:09:08]>> But um why? Because I I think they still meet um the necessary, you know, characteristics to be either a man or woman. I think that even if um you know, something is is a little different about you because all of us are not the same, right? like um we are all human even though there's nothing that every human has in common.

[00:09:33]>> Um there's very there's very few things that every human has in common with each other, right? So um we categorize humans by a set of characteristics that things outside of our kind do not share with us. But I still and even though I would say you know for example a human is is bipal and a few other things there are there are some people who are who who don't have legs or um or or you know are missing certain things but I don't think that does not make them human.

[00:10:03]>> Yeah. And I'm not saying that that isn't that like they stop being you would stop being human if you got into a motorcycle accident. But I'm also not sitting here saying like, >> you know, you are a man because you have, you know, on paper the ability to impregnate somebody, right? Like we're talking about something very different when we're talking about your biology versus how you identify, right? Cuz I I found like in a lot of doing a lot of these conversations, right? Like for example, a lot of people are like, "Well, my biology makes me a man."

[00:10:36]Almost all those people have never done like a DNA test to like know what their chromosomes are. Um, and that's, you know, a lot of them will say like, "My chromosomes make me a man, but like >> they don't they aren't aware >> of that. They've never tested that." Um, so when people are saying like I'm a man, >> that's different from saying your sex or sexual characteristics are male, >> you know, those are two different things and it's why we have a different set of terminology for each thing, right?

[00:11:10]Because there are a lot of different aspects of gender like gender expression, uh, gender identity, etc. Um in the same way there are a lot of different sex expressions biologically, right?

[00:11:23]>> Um yeah, I just um just to confirm um do we agree um on sex on what you know determines male and female or >> Yes. Yeah. For the most part. For the most part, right? Like it's it's a bimodial curve, right? Like we And that that's that's what I mean, Luca. That's why that's why I say there's a difference between the two, right?

[00:11:47]Because would you agree that language is descriptive?

[00:11:53]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:11:54]>> Okay, great. So, do you do you >> reality?

[00:11:57]>> Yes. Exactly. And do you agree that we get more descriptive as time passes? So, for example, somebody who has a computer, >> right? Before there were computers, there were no words for like circuit boards and sound cards and all of those type of things, right? We had to develop the language as we understood more about technology. We had to create words to describe those things. Would you agree with that?

[00:12:26]>> Yeah, I'm totally with you there.

[00:12:28]>> Okay, great. So when we talk about gender like you know gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, you know, relationship configuration and sex, we can agree that those words became better descriptors of people's human experiences. So for example, sexual orientation, just because there wasn't a word for sexual orientation, you would agree that gay people existed throughout history, right?

[00:12:56]>> Of course. Of course.

[00:12:57]>> Absolutely. Right. But but humans used words to describe that uh that that behavior of of humanity, right, of being a gay person, right? That identity. Um but it existed. And then we found words to describe those things. And so we are at a point in our in our descriptive understanding of language that sex isn't enough anymore. Sex isn't that simple that it used to be in the way that we describe it. So that's why we created another word such as gender even though gender has existed throughout history because we've always had these social ways of people behave throughout historical understanding, right? Like there was a Roman emperor that was a transwoman for example. like trans people have existed. Even though they were born male or born female, they may not have in shown up to the world the way most male and female people did.

[00:14:03]Would you agree with that?

[00:14:05]Um, I do, but what I really want to know is like, >> um, I'm I'm I'm not opposed to, you know, new definitions to encompass um concepts better as we learn about them, right? Um, I'm just I'm just um lost on on what exactly um man and woman as genders would be referring to if not biology, if not the sexing.

[00:14:33]>> No. And I and I get that, right? And that's why I'm trying to talk about how when you separate sex and gender, it becomes much easier to understand, right? And and I kind of say this tongue and cheek sometimes, but do you have sex with somebody or do you have gender with somebody?

[00:14:49]>> You have sex with somebody.

[00:14:51]>> Exactly. Why can't you just say I have gender with somebody?

[00:14:56]>> Um, I'm not I'm not sure.

[00:15:00]>> Because the word doesn't make sense.

[00:15:01]because it's a different way you use the word.

[00:15:04]>> Yeah.

[00:15:05]>> Right. Because they're different, >> right? It's about the context of how you use the words that make the description possible. So, we we have sex, which we all agreed on this call, which is the characteristics of biological traits that that happen through a lot of different processes. And and so for example, I was born male, but I identify as a woman because I am a woman.

[00:15:34]>> That doesn't negate the fact that I was born male. Do you understand that part?

[00:15:39]>> Right.

[00:15:40]>> Yeah.

[00:15:40]>> Okay. So So, so, so the gender part about me, so the gender part about me is my woman that I identify with, which makes me a trans woman, right? If if sex and gender were the same, then why would I need a word transwoman?

[00:15:57]>> Yep.

[00:15:58]>> Right. Right.

[00:15:59]>> And I I would also throw out there because Josie mentioned a little bit earlier uh biodal like sex characteristics. Um kind of this distribution where like most males fall into like this kind of lump. You can't see my hand gestures. This kind of lump over here, right? And most females, they have sex characteristics that fall into a different lump. But there's a lot of different distribution of those sex characteristics between those two lumps and on either end of those two lumps. Uh I'm doing a terrible job explaining a biodal distribution, but if you Google what that looks like, you'll understand what that means. Right. Um >> Right. Right. And so the reason I bring that up is because a lot of trans people also take HRT, which spurs changes to different sexual characteristics as well, right? And so it's not necessarily as cut and dry as a lot of people imagine it is uh from, you know, their their last time they went to a biology class.

[00:17:06]And so >> with trans people in in general, you have multiple things going on that like alter sex characteristics and you also have identifying as uh like the gender they identify as. So there's two different things going on there that might uh be complicating how you're thinking about this issue.

[00:17:30]>> Yeah. And and and Okay, go ahead. Sorry.

[00:17:34]Go ahead and respond. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Um um so I don't I don't mean to like keep pressing this, right? I don't I don't know if I'm coming off as disingenuous.

[00:17:45]>> No, it's fine. I'm trying to understand.

[00:17:48]>> Um >> you're great.

[00:17:50]>> I I just like when with this whole, you know, spectrum of gender, right, that is not that does not that is not related to sex, right? um when you say, you know, I am non-binary or I am a woman or I am a man, what are you identifying as? Cuz um the way the way I see it, right, there are no um like there are no there's no unifying factors that make somebody I don't think like doing certain actions or presenting a certain way would make you a woman. think that's like regressive, right? Um, so what exactly are you saying when you say you're a woman or or you're a man?

[00:18:38]>> Yeah, >> absolutely. So I agree with you. How you present has nothing to do with your identity, right? It's just it's just how that works. And and your expression that's why gender identity is different from gender expression, right? Like gender expression is like you can be a man but be very feminine. You can be a woman and be very masculine. at is that is something completely different as well. But when you talk about gender identity, >> you are you are identifying as as as the the thing that you are. So I identify as a woman. You've said you have identified as a man, right? Somebody who's non-binary doesn't identify or identifies with non-binary understanding of things that are outside of man and woman. And and so so that is essentially what that is. And and I think that is the the difficult part when you when you're trying to understand the concept of sex and gender being different is that you have to kind of shift your way of thinking a little bit of understanding how we relate to gender as as it as as a whole as you interact with human beings, right? Because somebody says I'm a woman, right? Then they are saying and this is something this is something that that that exists right we have and and this um one of the hosts says this very very succinctly I need to write it down but it's a general schema of what womanhood is for me and how that shows up for me is kind of what woman means to me so my womanhood is developed inside of all of the women in my life culturally my mother people that I look up to all of the things that I identified with that allows me to come up with the version of woman that you see in front of you on this show >> with you just the same with you Luca where where you're man you identify as a man and everything that you understand man to be is who you are and that's developed off of cultural people that you know people that raised you people you look up to you know all of that stuff comes together to be the core the the the egg the little the little the little stone that is man for you right and and and for you that manhood is much bigger and this is how I believe you're and this is me saying this about you so correct me if I'm wrong your manhood is bigger than your than your biology right like you you can't just like you don't have like you being a man you don't have to look down and be like oh yeah I have a penis. So therefore, I'm a man. You are a man because you are a man. You embody what manhood means to you, right?

[00:21:29]Because I think it would be disingenuous for me to say, Luca, I don't believe you're a man until I see in your see between your legs, right? Because that's disrespectful, right? I trust that you are a man because you tell me you're a man. on.

[00:21:43]And for me to challenge that would be disrespectful for who you are because I just take your word for it. Just like if somebody says they like chocolate, I can't tell them, "No, you don't. You like vanilla more." It's like there's nothing I can do to tell somebody that they don't like chocolate. Right? It's just something inside of them. It's just what they are. They're a chocolate lover, right? And and so it's the same type of thing. Does that make sense?

[00:22:11]Um, so when I say I'm a man, I'm referring if if if manhood >> womanhood means something different to everybody.

[00:22:24]>> Um, >> yes. To everybody. Everybody has a different opinion on what that looks like.

[00:22:29]Well, then what why not just what would be the difference between let's say a man whose manhood means something and a woman whose womanhood means something and those some things are the same thing but they've come away with um like these influences on their lives meaning manhood and womanhood instead of both being um womanhood or both being manhood. Do you understand what I'm saying? That was kind of >> Yes. you're kind >> you're you're you're like on the verge of getting it. You're asking great questions, right? which is that we are when we're talking about man and woman, we're talking about as Josie I think really eloquently put it there like we're talking about this amalgamated idea of all the interactions you've had with other other men or other women and like the ideas and traits not traits but like I the ideas and qualities associated with that those concepts right and all put together. And when we talk about something being socially constructed in this way, especially something as intimate as identity, um it doesn't mean that it's not real. And it doesn't mean that it's not real to you.

[00:23:48]Uh but what it does mean is that it can be subject to change, especially over time. And this is where I think uh looking at history in particular is really helpful because we can see that there in the past have been certain activities or ideas associated or or qualities associated with what it means to be a man versus what it means to be a woman. And you can also like right now you can look at like India as a country and uh they have an entirely officially recognized third gender that is existent in their historical record going back uh like over a thousand years. Like it's uh when when you start asking questions about like well like could you not you know have like two people whose ideas of gender are like the same but they're using different words to describe it and like yeah you you could um because it's it's malleable. It's it it changes over time. you know, uh it was considered manly to wear high heels because originally they were developed as uh for use among cavalry men, you know, um and then it it changed over time and now we consider high heels to be relatively a feminine thing to partake in. But >> okay, >> uh do you do you do you kind of get where where we're going with that? So we're talking about we're talking about masculinity and femininity and that's what it means to be a man or a woman.

[00:25:26]>> Well, not necessarily. Not necessarily.

[00:25:31]>> So so so so remember the the expression of how you show up is different than how you are and who you are. Right.

[00:25:39]>> It could be an extension.

[00:25:41]>> Exactly. So so so the idea like you know somebody who's a tom girl a tomboy, right? somebody who's a tomboy who is identifies as a woman, has a very strong sense of gender identity for who they are as a woman, but they're incredibly butch, right? They like drugs, they do everything that is manly in the words of expression, but in in in their mind, in their hearts, they're still women, right? It's because that is who they identify with. They identify with other women. You identify with other men, right? you. It's hard to explain why you identify with other men, but it's not because you all have penises. You identify with other men because they're men and you have that unspoken bond of identity and understanding that you are men and you're in this shared schema of understanding of what man is, right? And and so because Luca, if somebody said to you, and I'm sure this has happened, I'm sure at some point in your life, somebody who's like, "Oh, you don't like trucks? Well, you're not a real man." Right. We talked about that earlier. That's disrespectful. Wouldn't you agree?

[00:26:51]>> Um Yeah. I think that's dumb. I think >> Yeah. Exactly. Right. So, because only you as a person can identify that you're a man. Nobody else can come into your world and be like, "You don't do this thing, so you're not a man." Because that's that's up. That's not that's not how that's not how gender works, right? It's about who you are.

[00:27:13]Does that make sense?

[00:27:16]>> Um, yeah, I think so. Um, >> yeah, it's who you are. You're you're a man because of who you are, not what you were born.

[00:27:26]>> Like maybe >> it's just who you are. Maybe a good a better example might a better example than what I used earlier with like a motorcycle accident >> might be um if you went and took a DNA test and you found out you had XX chromosomes >> which is possible like there are lot a variety of interex conditions that exist out there >> would you would you stop identifying as a man?

[00:27:53]Um, no. Under my worldview because of other sex characteristics that I had that would keep me in that.

[00:28:01]>> So, Luca, you would still be a male. You would still be a male.

[00:28:05]>> The difference is about gender identity, >> right? Because that's the difference, right? Like the difference is male is sex, man is gender, >> right? That's the big difference, right?

[00:28:18]And and like you said at the beginning of this call, and I'm I'm sorry we're going to have to be um wrapping soon, but like you said at the beginning of this call, like you have trans allyship, right? You understand you want to you want to support and help trans people.

[00:28:30]Is that correct?

[00:28:32]>> Right.

[00:28:33]>> Okay. So So the idea of sex and gender, right, the sex, >> the sex of who you are is male. Like when you go to a doctor's office, you're checking a box that says you are you you're you're male. So that way the doctor knows to check your prostate or do the things that that male, you know, bodies have you have to deal with, right? And but but you are a man not because you have to check that box at the doctor's office. You're a man because that's who you identify as.

[00:29:05]That's who you are.

[00:29:07]>> Right? So that's the gender part, right?

[00:29:10]That's what you deal with in society, right? When you're walking around the world, you're dealing with other men not because they have penises, but just because they are men and you know they're men because y'all have the understanding that y'all are men in the identity of men, right? Just like just like if I like me personally as as a trans woman, you know, I identify with women. I have many women friends. I do I do women issues, all of the things that I have to deal with as as as a woman.

[00:29:38]And it would be really weird if I if if men came up to me and was like, "You're a man. You're my bro, bro." Like, what?

[00:29:46]Like, that would be weird, right?

[00:29:47]Wouldn't you wouldn't you agree with that?

[00:29:50]>> Because they're not interacting with my gender, >> right? They're interacting with my sex when they say that.

[00:29:58]>> Just to be clear, I can still I can still identify with other women and still be a man, right? Like most of my friends can be women. Yeah. And I can like stereotypically feminine things and still be amazing.

[00:30:11]>> Yes.

[00:30:11]>> Yes. Yes. Exactly.

[00:30:12]>> Because like there there's a difference between like understanding where other people are coming from and personally identifying who you are as a man versus a woman, you know?

[00:30:24]>> Right.

[00:30:25]>> But but but but Luka, you would understand like if if if if all your female friends were like, "Hey, we're having a girls night. Sorry Luca, you can't come." You would understand that, right?

[00:30:37]Yes. Yeah.

[00:30:39]>> So, so that because they're choosing to hang out with their gender as a group >> and no menological differences between >> Exactly. Exactly. That's what they're dealing with. They're They're not all being like, "Everybody here has a vagina right now. We're going to hang out." And if they were, I wouldn't want to hang out with those girls because that's weird. But but but but you know but but but at the end of the day it's like that's what that's what it is. So in society we interact with gender, >> right? That's just how we that's how we deal with things. We don't deal with sex. That's like a medical thing.

[00:31:17]>> Okay. Um so I'm I'm with you guys now um for the most part. My only question would be um if these things are just how you identify and you can behave any way irrespective of your gender um but >> um gender is um or the the social concept of gender right is causing harm to some people right in more conservative or regressive places. um um women, especially trans people especially. Um, do you think it would be better to abolish gender as a whole and just um let people live how they please and express themselves as they please without being chained to um because I would say that the dominant force in society is that of two genders having to um you know behave a certain way and if you don't fit within that narrative you're ostracized and and it can be pretty harmful to you, right? So, do you think that it would be better to just be do away with the concept of gender entirely?

[00:32:28]>> I love that you're asking this question.

[00:32:31]I I I love it because I think it's a really cool question to ask, right? And um how I would phrase it is that we should be seeking to do away with prescriptive notions of gender. Uh, and what I mean by that is like the idea that like other people can police you.

[00:32:52]Like you're not really a man unless you like trucks like or you're not really a man unless you do X Y or Z. You're not really a woman unless you do X Y or Z.

[00:33:03]We should do away with those ideas cuz I think there are going to be people who always identify however they want to identify, right? Um, that's like you can't really strip away anybody's identity, but what you can do is seek to create a society in which people aren't uh trying to police other people's identities and put them into boxes where you're a man, you can't cry. Real men don't cry. Like, that's that's And it's always been And we should work towards a world where like people can just exist how they want to exist and uh they don't need to have these prescriptive notions of gender. I I think to some extent we're always going to have gender but we should seek to undo these uh restrictions.

[00:33:56]>> Yeah. And I just want to add this and we do have to wrap unfortunately soon Luca.

[00:34:00]We we've had a great call here, but um we we can't what what the word we're looking for is gender liberation or you know that that's really what it is. We want to be liberated of the rules that force us into the boxes that hurt people because of whatever perceived gender that they have. We can't abolish gender because gender identity exists. Gender identity exists in people. No matter how we we deal with it, it's inside of people. And if you don't have gender identity, then you're agender and that's something that exists as well. But at the end of the day, it's like we're not seeking to abolish gender because the gender that people hold is very good, very important to them. My gender identity as a woman is very important to me. And and I would be heartbroken if somebody came in and legislated away that gender no longer exists, no matter how you look at it, because I'm still going to show up the way that I show up every day. So, so the idea of abolishing gender is a concept that's not possible because I believe humanity has it inside of us. It's just how we are. That's just how we're programmed. Luca, you are programmed to be a man and there's nothing that's going to change that. I am programmed to be a woman and there's nothing that's going to change that. And and so because of that, like we can't abolish gender because abolishing gender would take something fundamentally away from you too because I'm sure you're pretty proud to be a man. Would you agree?

[00:35:29]>> Um, not really. But I feel I agree.

[00:35:33]>> I I I I understand that you're saying it. I say you're saying it in a politically correct way, but I I will say that being a man is part of who you are, and I would never want to take that away from you.

[00:35:46]Yeah, I agree with that. I'm just I'm not proud to be a man because, you know, I didn't do anything to to, you know, >> I understand it. I was just born >> I get what you mean.

[00:35:56]>> You're just born that way. Just like I was born a woman, but I just happened to be born in the sex of a male, but that doesn't change my womanhood because there's a difference between sex and gender. And that's what we were trying to get to all along. So, before we let you go, is there a difference between sex and gender?

[00:36:14]Yeah. Yeah, I can agree with that. Thank you. It's really >> You're a great trans ally. You're a trans ally. That that that's what that means, right? To to to to believe in the difference between sex and gender is a trans ally. Go ahead.

[00:36:28]>> Um just one last question. Um do you know of any, >> you know, other resources you could point me to um to help me out with um you know um with my journey of like I guess being a trans ally? Um yeah.

[00:36:44]Go ahead, Jaffy. It looked like >> No, no, go, go for it. I'm sure you have like a bunch already pulled up.

[00:36:50]>> Can we actually ask Luke to call back because we really got super chat?

[00:36:53]>> Yeah, sorry. We are over time.

[00:36:54]>> We we we are over time. Um, but go on Google uh look up uh organizations and uh go to go to community groups in your area. But um you're awesome. I appreciate you. But we do have to go. We have to try to wrap up in the next 14 minutes. All right. We do call back sometime.

[00:37:10]>> Yeah. Thank you so much. We appreciate the call.

[00:37:13]All right, that went so well.

[00:37:17]>> Yeah, it did. That was good. That was good. We got there. Well, that was a wonderful call. I hope you all enjoyed it. Uh I hope you uh got something out of it. Uh and if you did, let me know what you thought about about it in the comments. Uh, leave a like, leave a comment, subscribe if you will, and also consider doing that over on the line as well to support the transatlantic call-in show. And uh, yeah, it's it's it's a good time. Also, check the links down below cuz you can get links to the line, the episode, the Patreon, the uh, merch store. There's a lot of cool stuff over there and uh constantly being updated and added to all the time. So, do check it all out. And uh yeah, also if uh you're in Oh god, I I stopped at the weird I stumbled over my words at the weirdest possible time and said you're in. God, I I don't think there's any way to salvage the end of this. So, uh, yeah.

[00:38:25]Uh, like, comment, subscribe, and I hope you enjoyed this. Uh, let's keep on going.

[00:38:35]Deck is going to town. All the viewers gathered around. Twitch and YouTube is switching streams. All that content is bursting the scenes. Politics being plenty more. Her sons of fashion you'll adore. So, grab your stuff and hop aboard. We're going straight to Jack's Discord.