Jay Dyer Explains How the Bible Is the Word of God to an Agnostic

本站添加: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00][music] >> Reason, you got to unmute.

[00:00:09]Can you hear me now? Yeah.

[00:00:11]Right on.

[00:00:13]Um Yeah, I get stuck at the at the very base.

[00:00:18]You know, just at the very beginning of this that I get frustrated cuz I listen to these debates and stuff.

[00:00:26]And um I hear you know, Christians are basically arguing I get stuck at the whole the the Bible is the word of God thing. I know it's you're probably annoyed with this kind of basic atheist I'm I'm not an atheist, but I just I I kind of get stuck there because it I never hear it a satisfying answer.

[00:00:48]Well, what's the problem with I mean, ultimately the quote word of God is identified in John 1 as the second person of the Godhead as the actual living person of Christ.

[00:00:58]It's not >> you're But it's in a lesser sense we could say that the Bible is quote the word of God in the sense that it reveals things about the Messiah or the Logos.

[00:01:09]Yeah, but you're What I'm still stuck at >> [clears throat] >> you're referring back to the book as proof that the book is the word of God. So I'm when I'm I didn't make that argument. When did I say that the book proves the book?

[00:01:22]Uh well, you just quoted John something or another.

[00:01:25]>> I'm telling you our position about what the word of God is in its strictest sense it's not the book, it's the person. A person is not a book.

[00:01:34]But in a in a lesser sense it's a reference also to the text. But the text reveal the person just like if somebody wrote a letter to you about me, could you say, "Well, do I know Jay?"

[00:01:44]Well, you know me in the sense of reading the letter about me, but that's different from knowing me directly.

[00:01:51]Right.

[00:01:53]Okay.

[00:01:54]So So the So it's And And you're using that analogy to say that the gospel of the apostles is sort of the letter that you're going >> Yeah, exactly.

[00:02:06]And so, these people are talking about and so, we kind of gather who God is or who Jesus was based on sort of a triangulation of these different accounts and that's Yeah, well, who who who Jesus is is derived, you know, from Messianic prophecies, the claims and all of that, but the proof for why that religion is the case versus others, I would argue or atheism or whatever, I would argue the transcendental argument's the the strongest proof for that.

[00:02:32]Okay, I don't think I understand. I'm I'm I'm I'm a Buddhist, so so for me, it's virtually simple. It's it's a little more like the Buddha would say you don't take my word for it. Like, I'm telling you this is kind of how the brain works and and and this is you've got these desires and then if you can sort of watch them and not attach to them, then you kind of unlock a different >> [snorts] >> I'm simplifying, but you can [clears throat] kind of unlock a different state of being and don't take my word for it. Sit down and here's some here's some instructions that you can follow and then you can follow those instructions and then experience it for yourself and or not, but like go just go figure it out. Test it yourself and see whether it works.

[00:03:15]Um I think the problem with Buddhism as I understand it, I'm not an expert in it, I've just kind of had a few interactions and read a little bit. I mean, I think the main problem with most of the Far Eastern religions in general is that they really end up denying fundamental principles of logic. They would say that's quote Western and so, at root there's almost an acceptance of contradictions and absurdities and if that's the case, then you can't do debate at all because debate presupposes abstract invariant principles of logic and and critical thinking and if Buddhism's true, those things don't really exist in some a way. So, if you're if Buddhism is true, you can't debate.

[00:03:54]I've never heard that argument. Could you Could you elaborate more?

[00:03:58]>> Okay, so let me Do you think that there are as a Buddhist universal laws of logic?

[00:04:03]Yes. Okay, where where are they? How do they exist?

[00:04:07]How do Where do they come from? I mean, I think it's I mean, I'm not you're going to you're going to be able to out-debate me on, you know, Aristotelian logic or or whatever.

[00:04:16]>> Well, any kind of logic.

[00:04:19]Yeah, I mean, it seems from what I understand, you know, I've been into the Buddhism thing for two decades.

[00:04:26]Um that he's he's actually quite logical.

[00:04:30]He's He's basically saying cause and effect is sort of exper- experimentation. So, try this, sit down.

[00:04:35]Here's a Here's a technique.

[00:04:38]Try it, and then see whether it works cause and I mean, people in the West >> that's a different question. So, so maybe the maybe the Buddha was really good at doing logic, but this is a different order or level of questioning, which is what is logic in that worldview, and how is it the case? So, I'm asking for the ontological status of logic and universals, math, these kinds of abstract principles, not can I do them and do they work? What are they?

[00:05:05]Where are they? And how do they work?

[00:05:07]Mhm. I don't think I have a good answer for that. What What What would you say in the Well, in Christianity, there is an example for that. There's an answer for that because God is a personal being and not an impersonal absolute like in Buddhism, and so reality, the life, the world that we're in has meaning. It has a telos. It has intentionality, and I would argue if Buddhism is true, as far as I understand it, there is no meaning, telos, or intentionality in the world.

[00:05:31]Uh well, I mean, I don't think that's really a good reading on Buddhism, but I can't really I I'm not knowledgeable enough on the on the logic, you know, kind of giving an epistemological >> Well, okay. I mean, is there purpose Is there purpose in the world? Is there Is there telos?

[00:05:51]Is there purpose in the world?

[00:05:53]>> Yeah, or is this a world to escape from?

[00:05:56]They Okay, I see I think I see where you're getting at. I think what the Buddha would say is that the the feelings of the sense of purpose is is a sense that we can experience. And that if you if you get if you experience that >> purely subjective or is it an abstract Is it a Is it an objective principle or is it purely subjective is what I'm asking.

[00:06:20]Is it purely objective?

[00:06:23]or subjective?

[00:06:25]I couldn't get I don't know if I have a good answer. That's a good question. I don't know if I have a good answer for what >> fair enough. I mean, I Yeah, so I'm not trying to be mean or trappy or whatever.

[00:06:33]It's just >> No, I don't feel I I know you're I didn't You know, you could I'm sure debate circles around me on many things, but I I uh Yeah, I don't really I I don't I'm not really sure what to say about that. I just know that from from what I know, it's it's a little more experiential.

[00:06:52]So, it's it's saying that Here's some instructions. Follow Let me put it this way. I think the the Buddha is more like, "Here's some instructions.

[00:07:00]Follow these instructions and then tell me if you don't feel a sense of purpose about your life." And and those things will come to pass. You will You will You will feel them in your Okay. You're saying that's subjective.

[00:07:12]>> Yeah, it sounds like a I'm trying to be It just sounds no different than like you know, uh well, I do what feels good to me, man. I mean, I I understand this more sophisticated than that, but uh it potentially it potentially might boil down to that. So, >> [music] [music]