A CEO who built a USD 3.5B company, now scaling the future of accounting

追加: 2026-06-01

[00:00:11]Welcome to the ASW podcast series, an initiative by SW India. In this episode, we feature Steve, CEO of Creek Professional Alliance, who built a USD3.5 billion company and now is reimagining accounting profession scaling creed to a USD 500 million run rate in just 35 months. Joining him is Shre Gupta, VP global growth operations at Creed, a trusted adviser to a CPA firm leaders on leadership, growth and transformation. Together they discuss leadership at the top, coaching entrepreneur and how accounting firms can manage change, succession and growth in today's evolving advisory landscape.

[00:00:50]The conversation is hosted by Kunal Mehara, co-founder and managing partner of SW India. Over to you Kunal.

[00:00:56]>> Welcome Steve and Sh. Thanks for coming to our SW podcast. Really excited to have discussion with you. I hope you will also enjoy the today's discussion.

[00:01:06]>> We're honored to be here. Thank you for inviting us. So Steve maybe we'll start uh with your introduction like you had a remarkable career leading matters firm from a single franchisee to a 3.8 billion uh company listed in NASDAQ and then served as operating partner at Lightbe Capital. So what inspired you to move into accounting and professional services space and what do you see this industry that excited you?

[00:01:31]>> Yeah, I think um a couple things. First of all, the industry as as you know and we've talked about it's going through such a transformation and you know my whole career you know scaling from you know $1,300 to a $3.8 8 billion company was really about you know people structure strategy and scale and uh investing in people and I think that you know given the dynamics in this industry you know which you know we've talked a lot about but there's you know the the the rapid fa pace of technology changes um the um you know of course there's a talent you know shortage and there's a challenge there and then you got rapid consolidation which I've been a part of >> um in multiple industries actually. And then you've got, you know, the clients really just, you know, changing their expectations.

[00:02:25]>> And so when you think about all of that, you know, that's an exciting mixture of things to to work with. And um so it became very exciting to have to have an opportunity to be a part, you know, a little, you know, footnote in in this transformation that that we're trying to do. But at the heart of it, it's really about entrepreneurialism. Yeah.

[00:02:46]>> What I care the most about is like what we are so focused on is really honoring the entrepreneurs and um and that's that's something that's been kind of consistent across really all the chapters of of my career and so very excited about that opportunity here in the accounting space. Um >> how's your experience so far?

[00:03:06]>> It's been exciting. Uh I I tell you the um you know for for people who say you know accountants are boring they're wrong. Accountants are amazing. And uh and I think there you know accounting is um for me you know being a you know running a small business and then growing to a public company. Um accounting was was really the language of business and it was it was it was the the truth of everything that was happening. So it became the backbone of my existence for many years. And so um to now be partnering with with the professionals that work really really hard you know to to help give this advice is is really huge. So it's been it's been a lot of fun.

[00:03:48]>> So obviously you've been dealing with the accountants or CPS on the other side being you being a client now you are dealing with other side.

[00:03:56]>> Yes. Exactly.

[00:03:57]>> So what difference you are finding?

[00:04:00]>> Well it's it's yeah great great question. Um it's it's um the professional works really hard. um the professionals, the the practitioners um they have a very hard job. The the the the amount of of um expertise that's required, the amount of time that's required, uh the amount of technology that's required, I mean, it's it's a very difficult job. Um so, it's it's been it's been interesting. Um, but I'll tell you like what I'm also excited about is there's there's really an opportunity to to help um we work a lot with midsize firms to help them think about structure and strategy and scale which has been >> um you know something that many firms really have yet to invest in. you know, how how do how do you invest in the things that are necessary to go to the next, you know, what's next for for these firms? And and and many of them are hitting that wall and they're trying to figure out how they compete, how do they thrive, how do they survive in a rapidly changing environment. And so to to to be partnered with them and to to talk about, hey, you know, this is uh this is some ways that we can leverage our our combined experience of the experience that they have being in the profession and then the experience of scaling a company. It's it's fun because at the heart of it, they're all entrepreneurs.

[00:05:25]>> They really are very entrepreneurial.

[00:05:27]No, I think uh if you ask me personally especially being 28 years in this profession and this is the right combination to have of people like you coming out not being have that legacy of accounting profession but you have a legacy of how to do business grow and all that like you have grown metrics so that's the kind of experience you or I would say it is needed to handhold the the kind of firms you are working on Because what I've seen dealing with lot of CPS and all that there is they are under some so I would say a silo that it has to be done like 1 + 1 is equal to two it has to be done like that only but people like Steve Shake and always come with a solution 3 minus 1 is also two that's the result you wanted it but there's other way to do it so I think that's the way I'm very sure you you guys are going to have have lot of good result and success not for the member firms and for creed also.

[00:06:28]>> Yeah. I mean a lot of a lot of the structure of I call it like the thief structure of a lot of the managing partners you know typically have left a big a big four firm and and went out on their own because they believe they could do it better and they and they are they they really focus on client service. They focus on the relationship.

[00:06:49]Um, but it's very difficult sometimes to to um grow a business and build an actual organization structure while you're also managing your client book.

[00:07:01]And so the firms that break through what we're seeing is they're the ones who have really invested in this infrastructure um operating rhythms you know infrastructure like a chief operating officer um technology infrastructure uh so it's people I call it people process technology like we we all talk about every day and so um so um you know it's it's that that that's that's looking at it from a business perspective and then with this with the transformation that's happening in the world uh with technology. Um we're we just really feel we're very long on the humans. We really feel like the relationship if if uh the compliance is what got us here, the relationship's going to be the moat. you know, the what's going to separate us from everyone is uh is the relationships and the trust and that and so we want to use the the to the tech tools, the AI to free us so that we can have more time to invest deeper relationships and solve more problems. That's the key.

[00:08:03]>> You're right. I think you have got the pulse of our side that trust and relation is the big factor. Mhm.

[00:08:10]>> So sh coming to you, you obviously started your uh professional career with startup in India and then you went for for the uh MBA and uh from US how what uh how did your journey lead to create and how what what draw you the idea of transforming into CPA profession?

[00:08:31]>> Yeah, so I think thanks for the question. Thank you for having us and having me also join with Steve uh for this conference. our honor.

[00:08:39]>> Um, so I think to back up a little bit, right, my journey started in India. In fact, Gorgo is where I've spent most years of my life. I grew up in and around um, you know, all of this. Um, interestingly, I went to college at Stam College of Commerce thinking I would become a chartered accountant and I would become an accounting professional.

[00:08:58]Um, but you know, life had other plans.

[00:09:00]I did still start my career in professional services, but I ended up going down the advisory path. uh you know doing management consulting for a few years and and eventually what really attracted me to the startup ecosystem was the opportunity to build businesses and work with really smart people to come up with solutions to problems uh that hadn't been thought of previously.

[00:09:23]So I started in the hospitality industry uh you know being part of an early team of a well-known um hospitality tech startup which is a very very human intensive operationally intensive business >> and then in some ways I think I've been able to carry some of those lessons from working in at at the intersection of hotels and technology also to what I'm doing today at cite which is working uh with our accounting firm partners and our accounting firm colleagues to bring the best of technology and process to power the people who are delivering that exceptional client experience to you know the clients we serve and just as in the past um you know I was motivated by you know the the the goal of bringing highquality standardized experiences in the hospitality industry to to people uh I think we now have the opportunity to open up uh access to highquality insights >> and and access to data to uh what I think is a very critical part of the American economy which is the the small and middle market uh economy because the kinds of insights that businesses need in today's rapidly changing environment >> historically were only able to be accessed through um you know providers like the big fours and and the big fours don't work for everybody. So I think what excites me and every day, you know, what what I'm motivated by waking up every morning is to be able to work with our partner firms to serve real uh the real economy and to serve real America and uh serve the entrepreneurs, the businesses, the individuals uh that we get to work with um bringing them access to this the highquality data, insights and solutions to their business problems. And by doing that we're helping them you know preserve wealth create more wealth for themselves and for the economies that they're a part of. Um and I think that's at the heart of what we do. I think lot of audience who will be going to see the PA will be interested to know Sha who born and bought up in India Gorg went for college higher education in US now he's helping the people at the local level in the US especially on accounting and profession which is obviously they involve technology and all that which you are helping but there are a lot of local nuances relationship and all that that need time to understand and so how you transform yourself. So I I'm very sure you will be requiring a lot of transformation at your end also.

[00:12:00]>> Yeah. So I think >> hospitality to this is it I know the process and I think but the business is all together different.

[00:12:07]>> Yeah. So I think very briefly quickly addressing that as well. Right. I think one is accounting is the language of business in some ways and and it's interesting because I studied accounting and through college and then even at my uh you know the masters level of course I studied a lot of accounting. Um but I think being able to bring lessons from different businesses and apply them to uh apply those lessons in new industries and new spaces I think hasn't left me and seeing the power of what technology can do to really augment and amplify humans has also stayed with me. Uh so whether it's hospitality, whether it's residential real estate which are two industries I've worked in previously or it's accounting now where we're bringing you know the best of technology and process to power the people. I think as long as you're approaching it with a mindset of learning getting to the why behind the why behind the why essentially and trying to get to the core the the you know first principles of you know why does a problem exist and and what solutions can help us address those problems. Uh I think you don't need to be an insider to to be able to work in this industry. Of course, being a practitioner takes a different kind of training and expertise and so the good news is I am not the one advising our end clients on how to save save you know optimize their taxes or how to >> you know yeah you're doing great job and wishing you a lot of success and and you will be the examples for a lot of people in India and especially the accounting side I can a person from non-accounting side technically speaking even you you know I you are art is with so I think wishing you a lot of success.

[00:13:51]Thank and thanks for coming today in our broadcast. So Steve let's let's come to Creit which I'm more interested and obviously I've been following Creed for last two years in terms of what you are doing and the growth and everything is concerned but never got an opportunity to discuss onetoone with someone who who is like actually can tell about what is cret about so what basically is a professional alliance is about what you the problem you are solving what value you are creating for your member firms.

[00:14:26]>> Yeah. So, um you know, I think when you think about what's happening in industry, you've got kind of this dynamic that's the four horsemen that are coming at us, which is the technologies changing at an incredibly rapid pace. You've got um a talent shortage.

[00:14:43]>> Uh you've got clients expecting more and then you've got rapid consolidation. So, if you're a mid-market firm, you know, the the the decision you have to make is is kind of do what do I stay as is or what's next? What how do I how do I how do I grow? How do I survive? How do I thrive? Uh standing still is not really an option. Uh the big four have a um you know, a war chest of of resources. And so what Cre's solving for is what I I basically I call the the T's and the C's. So our terms and conditions are or not really terms and conditions in the sense that they're our T's and C's. So think of us more like um uh the Intel inside uh like the brand Intel inside Dell. So you stay you you stay your brand and we're we're allowing um and not just allowing but we're structurally creating it to where these firms can keep their identity they can maintain their culture and they can align the incentives uh with us so that they so that their growth is their growth but they get access to these resources as Trey was talking about so we can bring and it's really it's a little bit so when I get into the tease and the seas. It's it's about bringing the the Fortune 500 level tools and technologies to the middle market. So, we're arming the rebels, so to speak.

[00:16:10]We're arming the entrepreneurs so that they can >> be competitive so they don't have to trade off. It's not a trade-off between autonomy andor growth. So, you have options in the industry and there's lots of great options, but you can you can merge up, but then you have to potentially give up your autonomy. And many of these entrepreneurs love their culture, love their team, they don't want to give it up, >> but they don't want to also at the same time they don't want to uh fall behind because the the world is moving so fast.

[00:16:42]But if you're a firm in say the middle of America, >> are you really going to be able to invest in the engineers um that would be necessary to de to develop AI agents? Are you really going to be able to vet? we've vetted over 200, you know, um, technologies with great depth. Are you gonna have the resource to do that? And, >> and I will tell you, um, you know, you talked about like being in the accounting industry or not. Um, >> when I when I was building up mattress firm, it took me eight years to get to, you know, 60 stores.

[00:17:18]>> Okay. But then when I partnered with a private equity firm who did not know how to run a mattress store, I knew how to do that.

[00:17:26]>> But but what they did for me was they gave me jet fuel. They gave me they gave me access to these tools so that I had data. I had insights. I had capital. I had all of these things. And to go from 8 years to 60 stores and then and then go to 2500 in the next 5 to seven years would never have happened. And so so so if you know if if you think about that and you translate that to this world, >> what we're really looking at is we've got a very fragmented industry >> and how can we offer them the talent, >> the te the technology and the tools, the best practices that would be at the Fortune 500 level and then the capital, the cross-selling and the collaboration.

[00:18:11]>> So that's what the alliance is about.

[00:18:12]It's really about um you don't have to give up your growth. um you don't have to trade off growth for autonomy and at the same time you still get to be you in terms of your investment and so you still own your so think of us as just another partner.

[00:18:28]>> Okay.

[00:18:28]>> And so I don't I don't I think we're a hybrid.

[00:18:31]>> So there's there's definitely and and private equity is very very successful across the industry and we we we're very we highly respect it and we're part of it but I I call us a partner equity.

[00:18:43]Yeah. So the P for us is partner equity not not because because because we're really just another partner.

[00:18:49]>> No, I agree. Now obviously partner equity comes with a lot of strategic value and other benefits also is not only the money part but there are other benefit like >> like you mentioned when you taken PE in metros they bring not the money but lot of other >> tools and reach out or the the aspect which needed to escalate help you in terms of building the scale which otherwise is not possible only with money only money is obviously is like an oil >> but you need right car also.

[00:19:18]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:19:19]>> To reach the destination, >> you need a lot of things, >> a lot of things, >> you need access, you need resources, you need people. Just to summarize uh steeps just for obviously I understand what benefits and studies but just from a simple understanding point of like I have a firm in US form midsize firm what what is the model works between say example a firm in US or your member firm and create in terms of the model is concerned obviously you mentioned about the value you bring on the table from technology to relationship to lot of learnings and other thing is concerned but how this model works that. So you create invest in that member firm or how that work you?

[00:20:00]>> Yeah, the way we the way we work is um if you own your firm and um you just choose to partner with us is that we actually invest in your firm. Okay. And so we have we've partnered with uh almost 50 firms at this point.

[00:20:14]>> So we have 50 different partnerships.

[00:20:17]So, so basically we're your your investment is inside your firm, not in the other 40, you know, plus >> they're not interrelated in any case.

[00:20:25]>> They're they're interrelated in the sense that they get access to the talent, the tools, the attack, but but but and they get access to our economics. Um but but at the same time, their growth is their growth. So that's the structural difference of how you know we're we're we're investing.

[00:20:43]And um and then I think you know one other thing is we very subtly different from a a traditional PE model. We have a venture capital uh partner. So we were founded by >> uh ZBS partners which is Jake Sloan >> and uh really amazing entrepreneurs that have have proven this this this this model this independent model. um it's it's a JV model really it's a joint venture model in multiple industries and um the veterinarian industry HVAC industry so they they've done it many times over um but in this case we've also partnered with Thrive Capital and with Bessemer and so what's happening is with Thrive by having Thrive Capital in there they have a they have a a permanent capital vehicle. Oh.

[00:21:35]>> So, so we don't have a um we don't have a we don't have a short hold, you know, kind of mindset. We're not trying to just buy it and build it and and cut cost, flip it >> or there's a time restriction, >> right? And so, so it's very important for us because we're really trying to build enduring companies and so we can make investments with a very long horizon viewpoint.

[00:21:58]>> Well, that's very important. Well this as we were discussing off the that this uh profession requires a lot of longtime investment and all that >> and sometime VC NPs have their compulsion from exit and time point of view. So that's where I think alignment is very important and all right >> horizon time horizons and investments are a real issue. So if you have a 4 to sevenyear time horizon, by the second year you need to start making your your your efficiency cuts because you want to show a 2-year history.

[00:22:30]>> So the the the honeymoon is fast and uh so we don't operate in that mindset at all. Um, of course we have a we have an ROI focus and we have a focus on on building something that's that is profitable, but but at the same time, you know, we have a very long horizon about how we think about investing. So our view is is really long on people investments and and uh and process as as Trey was talking about building process from the inside out. And so at the end of the day, the the these, you know, these managing partners that that we've partnered with are excellent at what they do. They're amazing.

[00:23:10]>> Um, and many of them u just, you know, having the exposure when you've built a 10, 20, $30 million, $40 million firm is really impressive. But having the exposure of how to scale to a hundred million and and how to really, you know, invest in that is really really um something that if they've never been there >> um then they don't know what they don't know. So what we're trying to do is is help them with with exposing them with the data, the insights, the technology, the people, >> all providing all platforms, >> all all in all sense. Uh but but but um I have I have a saying with them. I call it playbooks, not rule books. And what I mean by that is um you know we will provide playbooks to you but also different from you know many of the platforms that I've seen before is we're not mandating change. You're still the captain of your ship.

[00:24:04]>> You're the entrepreneur and um >> we're just helping you.

[00:24:07]>> Yeah. If you like this playbook, great.

[00:24:08]But if you don't, you know, then >> it's your choice.

[00:24:11]>> Then um you know it's your choice. So >> and I think to add to Steve's point, which is a point Steve also made earlier, right? um we've got we align on a common language through which we assess you know the the health of the business the health of the people and the health of the client experience right it's what we call the triad so when when we're partnering with our partners uh we we are aligned that you know we're heading in a direction that they care about that we we care about supporting them and and eventually as long as we're delivering exceptional client service and we are delivering great experience to the people who power our business. The business is healthy and and that's why we're here to sort of supercharge their growth. So I think the triad really s serves as a tool to give all of us a lot of clarity on on you know where are we going what's the destination.

[00:25:01]>> Yeah. So to clarify that this the scorecard in the triad is >> is uh is people prosperity which is our culture >> um client prosperity and financial prosperity. So if we're kind of what I always talk when I talk to the partners, they're like, "Well, how will we deal with a problem?" And I'm like, "Well, or how will we make a decision?" And I say, "Well, the triads are compass." So if you make a decision based off of people, >> is this good for the people? Your people >> and is this good for the client and is this good for our financial pro prosperity? Well, even if it's a mistake, you can't really make a mistake because as an entrepreneur, what would you do? you would make a decision based off of this exact same principles. And um and so um that's our scorecard.

[00:25:46]That's what that's all we we focus on.

[00:25:49]And if we stay true to that, so so it's not you know the financials are kind of a lagging indicator to us. So we think the leading indicator is just the client growth and the people growth. And >> I think the obviously in our business in profession accounting you always see what the kind of qualitative aspects results you are getting either hiring people having what solution you are building and giving value to the client and then the follow the numbers and the commercials will follow.

[00:26:22]>> Commercial can't follow first because as we all agree there is a business of trust and relationship. First you have only then you can charge fees to the client otherwise and for that you have to have lot of things right as you I think that's the foundation of creed that's why you're building in terms of technology capability reach scale lot of other things not onepoint game is a lot of important aspects which has to be built in terms to be say from $30 million to $100 million >> yeah I have a saying I say a lot of times to our team which is if you want to grow the firm we have to grow the And so blind people.

[00:26:59]>> Yeah. And uh if you think of like a tree, >> what we see is the leaves, but the health of a tree is the roots underneath. And we don't see that. But to your point, like inside the culture of an organization, for the tree to be healthy, for the firm to be healthy, we really got to invest deeply into the soil, you know, the watering, the fertilizing of the culture because that right there will make the leaves, the client, you know, really green and really healthy. And so, so my mentality is is we invest there first.

[00:27:33]Uh even in the face of all this technology um it is really about um making using the technology to make accounting more human not less human >> more human because the relationship is um is really the the stickiest and most and it's really what the clients pay for. That's what they value the most is they value that the trust that they've put inside you for all these years that you've been doing that and that's that's that's what they pay for. And so we want to we want to free that up. But it's it's it's also very difficult because there's so much work that has to be done. That's one of the exposures that you know I've really seen is just how much work is being done. So we're feverishly working on the back end to free uh if I if I were to say there was one word like what's the major objective it's one word freedom.

[00:28:26]>> Yeah.

[00:28:27]>> Freedom of time freedom of opportunity and and that freedom unlocks everything.

[00:28:33]It unlocks it as a client having the freedom to make decisions. And so freedom is is really really a very critical um aspect of everything that we're doing.

[00:28:46]>> No, I agree with you. I think uh if you ask me, I always speak with my team that obviously we have to have right strategy, right people, right technology that's given that's the many that's the game you have to have.

[00:28:58]>> But I think following the right process day in day out discipline is very also important because this business takes time. You have to be patient. You have to follow the process. Is not like you went to meeting you will get the result.

[00:29:14]You have the people they will be revenue generated on the second day. That's not possible. Having that expectation is wrong. It's follow obviously right strategy, right people, right technology and the process uh follow discipline following the process is very critical for the success otherwise people lose patience or people lose their track also.

[00:29:36]>> It's everything in life. Yeah, you just said the I mean if we want to play sport, you know, um you know, the difference between me not being a professional golfer and the professional golfer is the discipline.

[00:29:48]>> And so by showing up every day and just follow and reducing that variability and showing that discipline >> is how that that I guess Roy won the masters because you if you have that discipline over years >> and you you you get into tough situations, you know what to do and and uh to your point, it's not overnight.

[00:30:05]Yeah. And so um you know technology is a tool. It's an enabler but it is not the solution.

[00:30:11]>> It is uh it is >> human relationship and that's where I be super technology is not going to be >> uh uh Steve I have a a very interesting thing to understand. Obviously my number is old. You said 50 forms you >> we just crossed over 46. We're getting close to 50.

[00:30:29]>> My number is 30 which is older.

[00:30:31]>> Yeah. But my I have curly to understand how you are able to integrate this 50 mindsets technology everything I understand that's common but integrating this 50 mindset bringing on that platform >> is a big challenge is not for this profession I think for every any managing 50 people at the top >> is always difficult and to make it to work for common goal >> yes >> all agree >> yeah um it it is it is challenging ing because and and to add to it like in a in a traditional rollup you could you could mandate changes and so we're not doing that >> and so um in in many ways what we're doing is is can be a little more difficult but it's also faster because >> we have 50 speedboats you know we don't have this big lumbering ship you know we're not we're not we're not really trying to build >> uh the next huge nameless faceless type accounting firm with you know with um just hundreds of thousands of 300,000 employees that we're not really focused on that. What we're focused on is we're focused on honoring the entrepreneur.

[00:31:39]>> And so with them being the captain of their ship and aligning incentives and that's the big structural difference is we're not >> we're not buying 100% or 90%. We're partnering with them so that they have a a significant stake in the outcome and and they are the experts that built the business. And so they're leveraging us kind of like Intel inside just to do the processing, just to do the back office, just to do those things. And so as a result of that, the way we're doing it is we're not we're not mandating changes, but we are offering um tools that unlock change. And so if you want to access those tools, then we've vetted different systems that you can you can change. And then we offer an integration team for change management.

[00:32:22]>> I would say the hardest part of it is change management. Well, it is >> because it's not just about tech change.

[00:32:27]It's about human uh as you know going through your your experience in your firm. Um the human change is is usually harder than the tech change. Plugging the technology in is is pretty quick but but getting the the the habits to change uh >> and know obviously obviously we being part of democratic societies and >> US and India is like the same culture very similar. You have to have agreement with all only like the things kind of and democracy it has to be there. No I agree I think Sh coming you being a growth and global opinion you are responsible for the driving growth and value for the member firm how's your journey so far at great and what is the biggest takeaway uh experience or challenge you have experienced till now especially dealing with this member firms and and people like my accountants >> right so I think fundamentally I think it's important to remind ourselves right that We're we're in the business of working with humans to serve to serve humans. So as long as we keep that at the center of how we work with our partners in the US and or our team members that are are sitting sitting in other parts of the world outside of the US. I think to Steve's point change management is critical and change needs to be thoughtful. It needs to be intentional. So we've we've decided to build our solutions not in a vacuum but with our firms and what we've done is whether it's technology whether it's process everything that we roll out as as is a joint effort which is designed with our firms and our international team working hand in hand and our technology team working hand in hand to develop that um what we are bringing with our global global operations or our global delivery capability to our member firms is really uh unlike anything that they would otherwise find in the market because it is a combination of uh cutting edge technology and AI that is either developed in-house by a technology transformation team or is available in the market but is still new and implementing those solutions and those tools is hard. We're bringing those technology solutions, testing them and designing them and running them with our international team which is based in India and then implementing it within our firms. So it becomes a joint effort and and by doing that our global delivery team in some ways also becomes you know they become change agents. They help help our firms navigate that change. They help our firms deliver that value internally as well as to their end clients better. So I think it's been a really rewarding experience. We've got a you know a few data points that have been super encouraging. We've just finished our first tax season and you know just our first tax season alone um we've you know delivered over a 90% u first time right uh outcome on thousands of tax returns. uh our AI capabilities are really working with a very high level of um uh you know accuracy and precision where our AI platform that has been developed by our technology transformation team is also u you know able to get almost 97 98% accuracy on many many forms um and eventually we're freeing up the humans whether it's in the US or in India to be able to spend more time working together and to be able to spend more time with clients to deliver value which which I think makes it really powerful. Steve, anything you'd add to that?

[00:36:07]>> No, I mean I think just to to your point, I mean the more time we can free up the more we can focus on what the clients value.

[00:36:14]>> Yeah. I must acknowledge and appreciate that as Steve and Sh knows I speak with lot of CPA firms from 3 billion to bigger two and smaller one in US and other part and whoever has their operation center or delivery center in India whenever is not that they just I am suppose I'm speaking with them they generally speak about the basic work of text preparation say audit testing or some kind basic word there but as I I have spoken with Steve also earlier and today as we are discussing what you are speaking is more futuristic more technologydriven more new things you are developing in India whereas I have come across CPA firm they are just discussing is like in a cost-saving operation center and they just want to outsource some of the basic work I understand that that's also that's a good way to do it is all without the thought process >> right >> you have a thought process that's okay we will do that also but we will do this also which is for next 3 years because it takes time to build test and a lot of things also like tax payment cycle comes once twice in a year you can't be live >> all day and day out so so it takes times to to be say 100% uh success rate of uh accuracy is concerned it will come in October or April next year >> to be confident >> and so the opportunity that that creates for our team in India or in other parts of the world is not just to be doing tax returns or to be doing audit testing, right? They're part of the solution.

[00:37:52]They're part of designing the solution and delivering it. So, our teams are very focused on delivering outcomes and delivering solutions for our business and our firms.

[00:38:00]>> And by doing that, we're able to improve the quality of solutions we deliver to our end clients.

[00:38:05]>> No, I think that's like as we you know, in my firm also, we do all basic work.

[00:38:10]I'm not saying I'm not I do the top end of the work or the work virtualistic >> but I think the thought process is we have to do the basic work in any case that's a part of our responsibility or the business requirement of our client but you have to ready for the future also that's where the differentiation is that you are working on X also you are working on Y also so that you make X plus Y for your client that's where that and obviously I know there's a still it has long waved for you to learn in accounting profession. Uh so what is the biggest challenge you have you think AC come across in our side of the business either on business strategy point of view or people's side anything which you think is still to need to be solved.

[00:38:56]>> So I would call it more an opportunity than a challenge. Um but I think the opportunity on on sort of in accounting and especially if I take the global delivery the India lens >> I think the opportunity is how do we develop the accounting professionals of today and tomorrow to think very differently from how legacy uh you know professionals who have trained them who they have seen and who they've learned to emulate have thought um I think AI is such a transformative shift in how we all spend our time. Um how do we equip our teams of professionals in India to also be using uh AI and using technology in in new ways to deliver value to end clients and it's not easy right because as someone who studied accounting I know that I was trained to follow accounting conventions and follow certain rules and apply those principles and rules to my uh from an academic lens into business practice. Today we're talking about a very different mindset. Um and so I think that's the opportunity which is bringing in people who are willing to unlearn and relearn um how this profession will deliver value to our clients no 5 years 10 years 20 years from today which is going to look very different from how you know value was delivered in this industry 5 10 20 30 years ago. I >> agree with you. So uh coming to stay uh just uh so what is the long play for say next 5 years 10 years what is a vision or what is a goal you are thriving at greed to achieve >> yeah I think our long-term vision is you know going back to we're really at the highest level trying to create more value for our clients and that's move from reporting the past to shaping the future and so that transition that Shay just talked about is really the vision of how can we equip um and transform our firms into really um the most modern advisory platform that we could create.

[00:41:02]And so if we can equip them with the technology and at the same time invest in the people and the process, the discipline you talked about, then then the the exciting part about that is the entrepreneurs get to still maintain their business, remain competitive and and candidly I think provide service. You know, if you think about the middle market is going to continue to demand more services and more value because they have a PhD in their pocket now. They have they have chat GBT in their pocket. So, they have access to this stuff. So, we need to make sure we're in front of that value and we're giving them that information.

[00:41:45]>> Uh, and then getting ahead of just compliance work and getting into advisory work. And so, we want to go deeper with our relationships. We want to go deeper with our service offerings.

[00:41:55]And so if you 5 years from now, we will have covered, you know, all the states and all the service lines and and all the technologies. And so um and I think the secret ingredient that we will end up with is kind of like oxygen.

[00:42:12]You can never stop an entrepreneur.

[00:42:14]Entrepreneurs have passion.

[00:42:16]>> You know, it's not like this corporate mindset. They have incentive and they have passion. And that is unstoppable.

[00:42:24]>> But if they don't have the resources to compete then it's very difficult.

[00:42:31]So we want to give them the resources but then you know we want to liberate the advisor >> and automate the data layer and that's really what we're trying to do. And um >> so it's not necessarily like a size objective. It's not it's it's really just about um you know providing that support in a in a unique way that that that honors the entrepreneur >> where Steve the two parties we are in commercial where the number game also has to play it rightly also >> and especially obviously the money being invested by P and all that they can't exit at some time is not with you I think whoever is doing investment >> yeah there's there's lots of ways you can access, you know, liquidity, right?

[00:43:15]And so grow growth >> I I I'm not apologetic about growth because it's the fuel.

[00:43:20]>> It's actually the fuel that that that continues to invest in um in technology.

[00:43:26]Uh but but you know, Thrive Holdings um which has, you know, an investment in in Creed is a holdings company. And so um with this permanent capital mindset, you know, we we can continue to invest and just um you know, create value >> for a long time now. I do think I mean we've grown very fast. We just crossed over 500 million inside 30, you know, under 35 months. So So it's been a very fast ride, you know, for us to to get to the half a billion dollar mark. Um but you know look I mean size size is a component. It's not the only >> So let me put the head on difficult part on me next 10 years 3 billion 5 billion.

[00:44:15]>> The way I think about it is you're always going to have like the big four and they're really really massive and they're and they they serve >> a really great you know uh spot in the world. uh we're not trying we want we want to be the big one the big one collection of entrepreneurs and so I'm sure you know aspirationally in 10 years we be in the top 10 we we we are you know um ostensibly you know get well over 5 billion um at some point um but that's not you know we want to partner what's more important to us is partnering with the the right ethos >> no I I think Sorry but number is not to be taken and that we are like what do you say materialistic but number also give you indication that I am serving so many people clients who are satisfied. Yeah, exactly.

[00:45:07]>> That's a way to look also.

[00:45:08]>> Yeah, >> obviously because we are, let's be honest, we are into the commercial world. But what we are trying to achieve is serving, say we started with zero and we are serving 5 million, I would say 5,000 client, 10,000 whatever number is that's our goal.

[00:45:24]>> Well, you know what's so interesting about this space which which um um coming from my previous world, you know, there it was it was a decent size space, but this space is so much more infinitely large. Yeah.

[00:45:37]>> So, I think technology and we talked about this earlier, technology is going to open up so many more service lines.

[00:45:43]>> So, what's interesting about the um like in the mattress space there's only there's 320 million humans in the US.

[00:45:50]They all sleep on a bed. So, you have kind of this finite pool.

[00:45:53]>> The time size is limited.

[00:45:54]>> Yeah. Unless cows start sleeping on mattresses, you know, you're you're you have a finite pool of how many beds you're going to sell because there's a turn rate >> in this space. What's so interesting to me and why I'm so excited about it >> is >> you can continue to have more services that it's almost infinite because there's because it's about advice. It's about advisory and and that the world is getting more complex.

[00:46:19]>> There's there's more regulation. There's more things happening and businesses need and with technology coming that's just going to open up even more data and that data is going to require someone to interpret it. And so these professionals that you've worked with your whole life and we all work with, they can interpret that data for the business leader that's the purest entrepreneur in America that's running an HVAC company or running, you know, uh just, you know, just the middle of America. And I I'll tell you like running a company for 15 years, you know, with just getting my Quickbooks done uh by the 15th and then by the time you make a decision, it's 30 40 days old to running a public company. When you're running a public company, everything is different because you're you you are predicting the future because you have strong FPNA, strong analytics. And when I got to that stage, because of the investments that we had made, I started to realize like this is this is really gamechanging. If we can equip the middle market who can afford that with those types of tools, this this who knows how big this could be, but it goes on beyond any number that we can think about. It's just it just goes on and on and on. So, it's an exciting space and that's for all of us. Like it's it's it's this isn't a zero sum game. you know, we can have like all of the consolidation in the industry, we think is a good thing cuz it's raising the bar. And so, we think that, you know, that that the consolidation is is very healthy and our competitors, we honor them. We we we we admire them.

[00:47:57]We're all going to learn from each other. This is not going to be a zero sum game.

[00:48:00]>> No, I agree with you. And just for for data point for everyone, like you know the service sector, what is the market opportunity globally is 4 trillion. Wow.

[00:48:11]>> Service and obviously within services there are a lot of categories but that's the size of the market global opportunity.

[00:48:17]>> Yeah. The midmarket US the middle market US companies is like the third largest GDP in the planet.

[00:48:23]>> I mean it's massive.

[00:48:24]>> No no like if you see India market and even the US market 50% more is service.

[00:48:31]>> Yeah.

[00:48:32]>> Is not manufacturing. China maybe have 50 60 manufacturing but we are in service driven economy. So that's the opportunity coming to that example of matters.

[00:48:41]>> Yeah, it's it's so massive. It's it's it's it's >> just having the right solution and >> it's it's more um it's it's there's more growth than than I think all of us can handle. And and I think that um >> um this technology is going to really create. It's interesting if you go past in time um whether it be the internet or even all the way back to the 1400s and the printing press that when when there's been transformative uh events in the on the planet there's always fear but then what happens is there's 10x the opportunities because it creates new industries it creates new opportunities and we are at the precipice the dawn of the >> single fastest and probably one of the most material transformations in the industry of the world happening right now with AI. So um you know I just think it it creates so much opportunity. It's exciting.

[00:49:34]>> Agree. There's a I think there is way to look into half glass full or half empty.

[00:49:40]I think you have to see that it is half full giving you more lot more opportunity than taking out.

[00:49:46]>> Humanity always finds a way. humanity finds a way to to to to to evolve and and and a way to to um you know um in essence capitalize on the opportunity.

[00:49:58]So it's exciting. So Steve just uh one question obviously like creed there's another same uh I think the organ firm called ascent which is also doing some similar kind of consort I am not sure the what model they have and just now last week I see one another uh startup mortals alliance they have got $85 million this >> and that's was surprise to me a 25 year kids nothing to do with accounting and they are trying to create a alliance of a accounting firm. So what obviously modus alliance is just an example not a to quote on but from ascent point of view what is the difference and and from asend and plus the lot of p investment which is happening I think they are also playing the same kind of play and a different market segment and all that is concerned but obviously you have different play from technology and holding that's more money side and all that so what is >> I think we I think from our from my perspective everything I've seen from and and the others is very admirable. I mean, I think that they um >> they are they are partnering with firms.

[00:51:10]They're keeping the brands the same.

[00:51:12]They're they're supplying them with with opportunities and access very similarly and uh it seems like they're building a really good uh platform and so I think we have a we have a lot of respect for him and I think that makes us all better. I think again I think the structural difference with us is we we we partner and our our partners own um an equity interest in their firm and we invest in their firm. There's no roll up in that top co. And so when you roll up in a topco you personally your ownership would be diluted across let's say you bought a 100 firms then then let's say let's say you bought you partnered with us and you rolled 30 or 40% into >> your own firm >> versus in a topco that 30 to 40% rollover which I think in their case it's it's it's it's a smaller percentage >> um but then that gets diluted across you know and it continues dilutions >> yeah and so and so still there's huge huge value that can be created there and um and and I must say you know >> um that model I have seen and lived on both sides working with light bay capital private equity and and being a part of mattress firm and buying a lot of firms and >> there's no way um we ever could have grown without that help and so I think what they're doing is huge I just think for us it's really about three things it's about your growth is growth >> and so you can see your number. It's about >> it's about a permanent capital vehicle.

[00:52:48]And then the third thing is you don't have to trade off autonomy. There's a subtle difference here of autonomy um versus growth. Meaning that when you still own a very large percentage of the company, you have the autonomy and the authority and candidly the incentive to make the decision. And I would say and I would say um just like oxygen in the room keeps us alive and you can't see it, >> entrepreneurial is the oxygen. And so whenever whenever um >> there's a blood >> Yeah. whenever that gets watered down >> and you lose the entrepreneur, you know, that that's a scary thing. And in this case, um, at CIT, we we are really focused on keeping that oxygen in the room because that entrepreneurialism is is what built it. And we're to the point you were making earlier, we we do have a lot of deep domain expertise on our team, but at the same time, we're not building a bench of people to run these firms. We're relying on the entrepreneurs to run the firms and then we're investing in their next generation and and and using equity as as a as a which I think uh many are doing as well using you know equity as a as a currency uh to to uh to incentivize the next generation so that it can be win-win. At the end of the day all the models are really good options. It just depends on who's what what's best for you. And we don't think that every every firm should join us or them. It's just it just it depends on what's best for them. And again, it's not a zero sum game. They're they're they um they're going to do really well and they're proving it. So, no, you're right.

[00:54:37]Obviously the market size so big and obviously uh every firm or individual has his own choice to make. If they if the right combination and thought process is matching then only it results into X and plus Y and just I'll acknowledge Steve for last one hour what I was speaking obviously uh the the the the most I think the important aspects which you have reiterated again and again entrepreneurship entrepreneurship I think that's the big difference is going to be there for success if you ask me say you have 46 firms why how it grows If there is one entrepreneur today and if you are able to develop or create or build next 10 entrepreneur in each firm, I think your game is on.

[00:55:25]>> Yeah.

[00:55:26]>> These all numbers will be >> and it has to do with it really if we all if we just all back up in the industry and we say well why would that be so important? It has to do with what the client expects and and the client values a relationship and the client values a trust. So um the these rain makers that have built these firms are very special and um and so we're really careful not to uh change that DNA.

[00:55:51]>> I agree. So Steve, I think we already I think covered our time and but lot of things to cover but never the rest we'll have next time. Uh just maybe we'll close this with a rapid fire. Uh Sh, I'll start with you just to make something interesting and then we can close. So uh sh if you were to start career today, would you choose accounting?

[00:56:14]>> I studied accounting and I think I'm very thankful for what I learned through my education. So absolutely would probably go back and actually pursue a career in accounting knowing where I am today and I and the regret that I have about not having actually spent time uh you know serving as an accounting professional >> and one thing about credit that Mark doesn't fully appreciate. Um I think I think it truly is you know the autonomy and the the entrepreneurial autonomy and spirit that Creed is able to retain among our partner firms and and people our partner equity model is very very special and unlike anything that exists in the market today.

[00:56:52]>> Thanks Steve. How about you? You will choose accounting or not? Well, as evidence, I just uh convinced my son to uh to change to change his major to accounting. And I will tell you, my dad was a Pete Marwick accountant. Okay?

[00:57:05]>> And so um um when I started my business, um >> he told me one piece of advice, which was um to sign every check. And so for for roughly 10 years, I every Friday had a stack of checks on my desk. And I would tell you that um accounting is the language of business >> and I entered every bill and uh I did every book uh you know I did all of our books um until we got larger. There's no way I would have been >> a uh public company CEO without that experience. I really regret that I blew off accounting in college uh because I got a marketing degree and I and and and I tell everyone today before I got into here, you need to get accounting at least, you know, >> study it for a few years because it is good entrepreneur.

[00:57:59]>> It's it's if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you can't be an entrepreneur without learning accounting. And so I think it's the language of business and I think I think it's fundamental >> and the life is full circle. You are you never imagined at 57 you will be coming.

[00:58:12]>> I know. Exactly. Yeah. I'm still working on it. I'm coming around you. So this is my new my new world. I'm going back to what I wanted to do.

[00:58:19]>> You will be dealing with so many accountants.

[00:58:21]>> Exactly. Yes. Exactly.

[00:58:23]>> So last one thing crit about crowd market doesn't appreciate. What is your according to?

[00:58:30]>> Yeah. Yeah, I think it's just hard to understand uh the market to understand the the distinction of of u well first of all private equity is new to this space and so so just understanding what what's happening with private equity is new and again I want to reiterate all the models are are can be very helpful there's pluses and minuses but to understand what the definition of partner equity is and what that really means um and how we how we really um allow for true autonomy. I think that's that's a unique thing that that uh that we um are constantly having to talk about.

[00:59:07]>> No, I agree with you. It's all about execution. Exhibition.

[00:59:10]>> Yes. Exactly. So, but it's it's it's exciting.

[00:59:13]>> Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Steve, for your time today. I I really enjoyed discussing with you and learning a lot of things >> based on I hope you had a good time also.

[00:59:22]>> We had a great time. So, it's good to come over here. So, next time you have to do it in America.

[00:59:27]>> Yeah, definitely. It will be my I think that will be the great.

[00:59:31]>> Yeah, that'd be awesome.