Does atheism require faith?

Added: 2026-06-04

[00:00:00]This is a clip from our show, The Divangelicals on the Line, and you can get the full episode at the link below.

[00:00:07]Have fun.

[00:00:08]>> Hello.

[00:00:10]>> Hi, Sarah. How are you?

[00:00:12]>> Hi. How's it going?

[00:00:14]>> Oh, it's going fine. And yourselves?

[00:00:17]>> Good. Good.

[00:00:19]>> Not too many.

[00:00:21]>> Not too many Christian callers today, huh?

[00:00:24]>> No, not too many. [gasps] >> Okay. So um what I would like to get to and talk about and discuss is um that just as Christianity is a matter of faith on the Christian's part, so is atheism on the the person who deconstructs or the agnostic, frankly. Phil, >> you're going to have a tough time making a case for an agnostic relying on faith.

[00:00:55]Um >> yes. Well, I think that the agnostic is is really just an atheist, it's a it's a dodge. Okay. So, if you're going to say that you that you don't know whether or not [clears throat] God exists, you're really implicitly denying that God exists.

[00:01:17]>> Yeah. Like I can understand a world where like listen, there could be a god out there. I just don't have sufficient data to come to the conclusion that there is one. So like I'm just I don't know. So like that's not denying that I know for a that's not me saying I know for a fact that there's no gods out there.

[00:01:35]>> Well, there are spiritual realities that we can we can confirm actually exist.

[00:01:40]Right. The laws of logic.

[00:01:42]>> Um >> I don't think the laws of logic are irrefutable and provably >> provably transcendental. Right.

[00:01:50]>> Oh. How do you prove that they're transcendental?

[00:01:54]>> Yeah.

[00:01:55]>> Yeah. That's a good question.

[00:01:57][clears throat] Listen, if even if the Bible is not true and and evolution is how we got here, it would be impossible for language to evolve as it has um unless the laws of logic were underwriting the reality of the evolution of language.

[00:02:15]>> So, that right there proves that the laws of logic are transcendental.

[00:02:21]>> I think there's a problem here. I think you're miscatategorizing the laws of logic as if they're like prescriptive, but they're not. The laws of logic are just descriptions of the universe.

[00:02:32]There's not like a a like a tablet out there with a giant cosmic Moses that says the laws of logic. I have the laws of logic prescribing how the universe ought to function.

[00:02:43]>> Well, the the point is is that the laws of logic are actually on the scene of reality before human beings could develop as we are. So you made a claim, sorry, you made a claim about that, but you didn't actually give any evidence for that. What is your evidence that we could not have developed language any other way?

[00:03:06]>> Yeah. Well, in order to have um any rationality at all, you have to have the three laws of logic in existence. Okay.

[00:03:15]So the fact that we're having a conversation proves that the laws of logic exists because you can't you can't uh kneel anything down in reality without just first of all the the law of identity a is a okay if the laws of logic don't exist then we all well they don't exist in the sense of like there's not like some plaque out there that says you the laws that the universe must obey this. No, it's just that the universe functions in the way we came about with our brains and our ability for speech and then we started to describe the way that the universe functioned and we call that description >> the laws of logic.

[00:03:56]>> Yes.

[00:03:57]>> Can you demonstrate that these laws exist outside of humans?

[00:04:02]>> Be impossible. Like I I made the point before it's impossible.

[00:04:06]That's not That's a claim. You're You're making a claim. You're not showing us >> logic writing the parameters of reality.

[00:04:15]>> The laws of logic do not create the parameters of reality.

[00:04:20]>> No, the laws of logic are an immutable aspect of our creator in my opinion.

[00:04:25]>> That's your opinion. But can you demonstrate that these laws exist outside of the human experience?

[00:04:34]Yes, I do. I did by pointing out that it would be impossible for um human beings to evolve as we are being able to communicate. Language would be impossible unless the laws of logic were setting the the parameters of our reality.

[00:04:49]>> Well, Tim, did you understand what I meant when I said that the laws of logic aren't prescriptive, they're descriptive?

[00:04:56]>> Um, you know, why don't you unpack that for me?

[00:05:00]>> Yeah. It's like the law of gravity. Like there's not like some like written law out there says like gravity must function in this way and that's what the law of gravity is. No, the law of gravity is just gravity exists and we observed it and then we des we and we described gravity and that's what the law of gravity is. Law here doesn't mean like like law like in the like in the legal sense where I'm prescribing some sort of behavior that you ought to follow. In the same way there isn't like a law of logic that the universe is like okay this is a law I have to follow it.

[00:05:30]That's not how the laws of logic work.

[00:05:32]The laws of logic are like the law of gravity. They're just describing things.

[00:05:36]The law of like of contradiction is describing just how in the universe that contradictions don't exist. That's just the universe exists and we're we're observing the way that it exists and then we create the laws of logic as descriptions of the physical world.

[00:05:53]That's it.

[00:05:55]>> No, I I don't accept your your definition. The language would be impossible without the laws of logic.

[00:06:02]Therefore, the laws of logic are fundamentally prior >> to language um evolving if we evolved.

[00:06:10]>> Is okay. Is that's like saying that language would be impossible without the law of gravity.

[00:06:15]>> Well, no. The law gravity has nothing to do with how um communication and language functions, but the laws of logic do. And they're spiritual. You can't do anything about them. they are what they are and you either abide by them or you go into the land of irrationality.

[00:06:32]>> So how can you can you demonstrate to me that it would be impossible to have language without these laws existing outside of human experience.

[00:06:45]Like you're making a claim about it but you're not telling us how you arrived at that opinion.

[00:06:53]Well, we can't we can't have any rational communication without um something being what it is. A is a that's the law of identity. It's most law.

[00:07:06]>> That's just describing the universe.

[00:07:08]>> A is a we can't have any rational discourse at all.

[00:07:14]>> Well, Tim, all that means is that in order to have rational discourse, the universe has to exist. But the laws of logic don't like have some sort of ontology. Again, they're just descriptions of the universe. That's all. The universe exists and we as thinking creatures arise on the earth.

[00:07:32]We're able to observe the universe and describe it.

[00:07:38]>> No, I don't I don't buy your your um rationalization there. The laws of logic must be in existence prior to if it's your worldview that everything evolved, right? which would include language, human language. It would be impossible.

[00:07:54]It's impossible for Listen, it's impossible for us to comm >> Hang on. He was speaking. Let him finish.

[00:08:03]>> I muted him. Go ahead.

[00:08:05]>> Oh, yeah. As far as I can tell, we don't have any evidence that the laws of logic really existed prior to Aristotle in the 4th century B.C.E. as like a formalization of anything. The universe existed, but we didn't have the laws of logic, dude.

[00:08:20]Hello.

[00:08:22]>> Hi. You were muted, so now you're unmuted. Go ahead.

[00:08:26]>> Okay. Well, I don't do Do me a favor.

[00:08:28]Don't Don't mute me in the future. I'm not interrupting anybody. I have some points. And if you >> I'm so sorry, but I couldn't resist.

[00:08:40]>> Wait a minute. Was this the Tim show?

[00:08:41]Did I call into the Tim show? I don't remember that. [laughter] Tim, what makes the laws of logic spiritual? I don't understand your rationale. Your rationale there.

[00:08:53]>> Well, is the law of gravity spiritual >> exist because it is an immutable aspect or property of our creator.

[00:09:02]>> The law of gravity spiritual >> not only look the laws of logic not only point towards the existence of the universal mind.

[00:09:11]>> Tim, can you stop reading your script and just answer his question?

[00:09:16]Yeah. Stop reading the script.

[00:09:18]>> Question.

[00:09:20]>> Try and answer his question. I didn't hear it >> because you were talking.

[00:09:24]>> Yeah. You're reading a script, bud.

[00:09:26]Let's let's talk like real people here.

[00:09:28]Is are the laws of lo you said the laws of logic are spiritual. Is the law of gravity spiritual?

[00:09:34]>> Sure. in a way because it's it's um part of God's creation and everything that that God created is >> um backed up by um principle spiritual >> the law of gravity isn't isn't God's creation. It's Newton's creation.

[00:09:51]>> I'm sorry. Can you say that one more time?

[00:09:54]>> The law of gravity isn't God's creation.

[00:09:56]It's Newton's creation. Again, I don't think you understand what the Lord law here means.

[00:10:03]Well, all the laws of and order that we see in the universe are are basically a reflection or revelatory. It tells us something about our creator.

[00:10:13]>> They're describing the universe, but they don't tell us anything about God. A god.

[00:10:18]>> Well, logic does.

[00:10:21]>> What does what do the laws of logic tell us about a god?

[00:10:26]>> Yeah, excuse me. Not only do the laws of logic point to um the fact that God is uh perfectly rational. Okay, it's impossible for God to be irrational because he is logic. [clears throat] It also points to the trinity.

[00:10:43]>> It does. The trinity is illogical. But that's beyond how does the law of identity and the law of non-contradiction >> and the law of excluded middle point to a god? All that tells me is that the universe exists and it exists in a particular way, but it doesn't tell me whether or not a god exists.

[00:11:04]>> Yes. Well, it's it's evidence of the universal mind.

[00:11:08]>> How?

[00:11:09]>> Okay. It certainly one one thing it doesn't point to the three laws of logic um and the other trinities that are in reality. One thing it doesn't mean atheist >> trinity doesn't mean three things.

[00:11:23]>> Yeah. That's not the word meaning of the word trinity.

[00:11:25]>> Trinity doesn't mean you have a group of three things.

[00:11:30]>> Yes. Yes, it does. It's it's a >> trinity of three.

[00:11:35]>> Nobody. Trinity that would be blasphemy.

[00:11:39]Trinity is the belief that there are three persons in the one God that they are made up of one essence. But the law of identity, the law of non-contradiction, the law of equity middle are not one law being um like personified by three different persons.

[00:11:54]They are three distinct laws.

[00:11:58]>> No, I'm you misunderstood me. I'm just saying that the three laws of logic are a reflection of the trinity. Not that >> um I'm not saying that logic is God [clears throat] saying that God is logic. Those three laws are a reflection.

[00:12:12]>> There three gods.

[00:12:13]>> Are there three gods?

[00:12:16]Are there three gods?

[00:12:17]>> I was making I was making a statement and then you started talking over me. So >> yeah. Any anyways are there three gods?

[00:12:25]>> No, there's one God. Just like the number three. Look, God is um the many and he is one. He is three and he is one. He's three persons in one being.

[00:12:37]>> Just like the number three is one number Tim but three particular unit.

[00:12:44]Tim, the issue we are having is you are saying that three laws of logic are a reflection of God. But the only thing those two things have in common is the number three. That's it. Like and God isn't even three separate gods. God is just one God in sort of three buckets.

[00:13:05]So the idea that the laws of logic are somehow reflective of the nature of God is contradictory. Your God is not three separate laws but three in one. And so your point about the laws of logic pointing to God or being a reflection of God is illogical and at best confirmation bias.

[00:13:29]>> Okay. Well, um you know, you're welcome to to that opinion. I don't see it that way. I think that the the the trinity we know you don't see that way time.

[00:13:40]>> Excuse me. We know you don't see it that way, Tim. But Tim, like you don't even know what the word law means in the law of logic. Like you you don't understand what these words mean.

[00:13:53]>> Yes. I I'm I'm very well aware of what the law the word law means. Okay.

[00:13:58]>> So in in this in this scenario, Tim >> um does the law make something happen?

[00:14:08]>> No. [clears throat and cough] Um, they are the the rules of reality.

[00:14:15]>> But when you say rules of reality, is it that there's like this written rule and that the universe has to conform to the rule?

[00:14:23]>> No, we don't. No, people don't have to, you know, people make logical mistakes all the time.

[00:14:28]>> No, no, no. That's not what he's asking.

[00:14:30]>> Yeah. I know I'm saying does the universe not people not do people make illogical statements but does the universe is do the universe has to obey the laws of logic as if the laws of leg have been prescribed for the universe to obey >> no human beings don't always obey the laws of logic and in fact the laws of logic can be quite intricate um >> okay Tim I think you're confused you're confused for example can I be Dalton and not Dalton at the same time No.

[00:15:00]>> Okay. I can't break the law of logic.

[00:15:02]>> I can't break the law I can't break the law of logic. I can I can make a I can make a thought which sort of doesn't align. No one can hear you talking while I'm talking to him.

[00:15:14]>> Um so I can make a statement which doesn't accurately reflect like the way that the universe works. But like I can't actually so quote unquote break the law of logic. I couldn't do it if even if I wanted to. I can't be Dalton and not Dalton at the same time. So the question is the fact that I can't be Dalton and not Dalton at the same time.

[00:15:36]Is that because the universe is obeying some sort of prescribed rule? Is that what you think the law means in this instance?

[00:15:45]>> When you're being logical, would you guys put me on hold again?

[00:15:51]>> Whis.

[00:15:53]Hello. Yeah, I muted you because you would not stop and listen to the question.

[00:16:00]>> Okay, >> I think we need to go back to the gravity example again for Tim.

[00:16:03]>> Don't do that. If you want me to be silent, just say, "Hey, I'm in the process of making a point. Let me make >> We did, Tim. I inter I said your name about six times before you stopped talking." You're doing it right now.

[00:16:18]>> Okay.

[00:16:19]>> Okay. The fact of the matter is let's go back to >> the law. Tim, stop. Tim, before you make a new point, >> Tim, >> before you make a new point, we want to make sure that you understand the point that was being previously made. So, hang on. We need an answer to the question that Dalton was asking you.

[00:16:43]>> Yeah. because I'm I don't think quite understand the way that the word law is working here because you seem to be treating the laws of logic as if they're prescriptions for the universe as opposed to being what they just simply are descriptions.

[00:16:59]>> Well, they're they're both.

[00:17:02]>> No, it's not. They can't be both.

[00:17:04]They're either one or the other, bud.

[00:17:06]>> No, we discovered the laws of of the laws of logic. You won't find the laws of logic in the Bible. They come from Greek thinking. Okay.

[00:17:15]In philosophy, >> so >> they invented the laws of logic.

[00:17:20]>> Okay. Hey, Dalton, try not to interrupt me when I'm making a point and I'll try not to interrupt you. Okay, >> Tim.

[00:17:26]>> Tim, the whole point is that the Greeks invented the laws of logic.

[00:17:31]>> No, they didn't invent them. They discovered them. They are what they are.

[00:17:34]They've always been around.

[00:17:35]>> Were they under Were they under Were they under a rock? Were they written on a tablet part of uh the truth of God?

[00:17:45]>> Let me ask it this way. Wait, let me ask it this way.

[00:17:48]>> So Tim, before the universe existed, let's let's do this hypothetically.

[00:17:55]>> Did the law of gravity exist before the universe existed?

[00:18:04]I think that uh conceptually speaking the the laws of gravity and the physical laws of the universe were part of God's concept or knowledge base.

[00:18:15]>> Right? So this is the issue we're having >> before this physical universe existed.

[00:18:21]>> Um you know the whether or not there was gravity in some other dimension or something. I would imagine this is probably so I don't know.

[00:18:30]So this is the problem with the the way you personally are using the word law.

[00:18:35]You are using it as if these laws exist all onto themselves and the universe is forced to be in compliance with them.

[00:18:46]>> As if the law of gravity exists. Right?

[00:18:48]So we're telling you that that's incorrect.

[00:18:51]>> That that is not what a law means.

[00:18:53]>> Yeah. So it's my position. I understand.

[00:18:56]Um, it's so uh I'm not >> we're telling you what science is saying.

[00:19:02]>> What's that?

[00:19:03]>> So law is a scientific term. So if you want to talk about a law, you should know what the word means and use it correctly. So you are co-opting the word law and using it incorrectly.

[00:19:18]>> Okay. Well, um, force of reality, that's what laws are. Okay. It it is what it is.

[00:19:26]laws laws are what they are.

[00:19:29]>> Okay.

[00:19:30]>> I'm not saying I'm not saying that um logic is is something that um God created. There are some Christians that believe that. I don't. I think that that logic. The Bible says God is love. But um I I think that we can also say confidently that God is logic. Reality exists as it does. creator has certain immutable properties that he himself embodies eternally.

[00:19:58]>> Tim, none of that made any sense. Um, the laws of logic, the only thing the laws of logic demonstrates that it exists is that the universe exists and that there are minds around to describe the universe. That's all that the laws of logic demonstrate. They don't point towards a god of any kind. And also, I'm not convinced that the universe ever had a definite beginning.

[00:20:19]yourition does away with it.

[00:20:25]>> I know this is the pot calling the kettle black here.

[00:20:32]>> Um, so Tim, you bring with you the presupposition that there is a god.

[00:20:37]>> Yes, this is true. I hold this by faith and you hold the opposite by faith.

[00:20:41]>> This one got called about the fact of the matter is that atheism is a position.

[00:20:48]There's no there's no there's no faith in atheism, Tim. There's no there's no faith in atheism. Calling atheism like a like a like a faith position is like calling abstinence a sex position. It's just it it doesn't it doesn't track.

[00:21:02]>> I think so because atheists may respond.

[00:21:07]I think >> let's test something. Do I as an atheist hold to the position that there is no God? That I know that as a fact.

[00:21:15]Well, you want to make laws and govern society according to your worldview and your beliefs. So, yes, you do hold those account.

[00:21:25]>> Wait, what law have I passed that teaches that there's no God?

[00:21:30]No, [clears throat] I'm not saying that you're going to make a law saying that there is no God, but famous.

[00:21:39]My question was my my question was Tim that um as an atheist, do you think that I hold the position that there is no God?

[00:21:50]That I know for a fact that there's no God. That's not my position.

[00:21:54]>> I'm not I'm not Well, that would be that would be a straw, man. I want >> that would be that would be a straw man, Tim, as I am an atheist and I I don't know for a fact that there's no God.

[00:22:04]There very well could be a god. I'm just not aware of any good evidence for it.

[00:22:09]So, I lack belief in it.

[00:22:13]>> Well, you still want to you you people everyone wants to make laws according to what they believe is moral and right and true.

[00:22:21]>> Sure. But that doesn't have anything to do with God.

[00:22:23]>> That includes the atheist. And you have an understanding of what morality actually is. [snorts] >> Wait, wait, wait a minute. Hold on. From how we exist, >> as do I.

[00:22:36]>> So, except I'm on the opposite.

[00:22:39]>> Tim, I'm going to need you to stop for a minute, Tim.

[00:22:42]>> You're about to make some huge generalizations about a very diverse group of people. The only thing atheists have in common is that they are not convinced that God exists. It doesn't say anything about whether they're Democrats or Republicans or pro-life or pro-choice. It doesn't say anything about what their morals are. And you seem to be assuming that all atheists somehow have the opposite moral system to you. And that is an incorrect position. And it tells me that you have not actually researched what this position is.

[00:23:24]Yes. Well, I I personally like I believe um God is logic. I believe that God is morality and that you cannot know as an atheist.

[00:23:33]>> Whoa, my neck hurt from that.

[00:23:35]>> My damn, you're breaking my neck with that crazy pivot.

[00:23:39]>> If I'm If we're going to have a conversation, you're going to have to try and let me finish a statement.

[00:23:44]>> Okay.

[00:23:45]>> Not completely ignores what I just said.

[00:23:49]>> Yeah. I was in the process of answering what you just said. Okay.

[00:23:56]>> Listen. So, >> so are you going to directly address the fact that atheists are not hom just be clear. You're about to directly address that Sarah pointed out that atheists not homogeneous and we don't all have the same beliefs.

[00:24:11]>> Yes. But it impacts it impacts atheism or a theistic or religious worldview.

[00:24:19]um uh colors how you understand what morality actually is and what logic is too.

[00:24:24]>> But like Tim, what's the atheist position on abortion?

[00:24:27]>> Logic and morality emanate from God like light from the sun.

[00:24:32]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's fine, Tim. That's fine. That's that's fine, Tim. Tim, what's the atheist position on abortion?

[00:24:38]>> Well, I'm sure that atheists have a variety of positions. I would think that most atheists are in favor of of executing the baby within the womb. And there are atheists who are pro-life as well. What's the atheist position on the afterlife?

[00:24:54]>> Well, in general, um I don't think that they believe that there's any afterlife, >> except there are tons of atheists that do believe in an afterlife and ghosts and spirits and all kinds of nonsense.

[00:25:06]Like the only thing that, as Sarah said, the only thing that all atheists have in common is that we lack belief in a god.

[00:25:13]And being an atheist doesn't tell you anything about the morals of the person.

[00:25:17]That's that's a whole another worldview.

[00:25:20]Like secular humanism is what paints my morals. It's not atheism. Atheism doesn't play any role in my morals.

[00:25:27]>> Okay.

[00:25:29]You're an atheist or an agnostic.

[00:25:31]Atheist. Agnostic. Tell me in your view what morality actually is.

[00:25:36]>> Well, as a secular humanist, because my atheism doesn't play a role in my morals. as a secular humanist fairness and well-being.

[00:25:45]>> Okay. So, um that's that's what you guys claim. But when >> not you guys, hang on. No, no, Tim. You guys is incorrect. There is no atheist position on morality.

[00:26:00]That is what Dalton said.

[00:26:02]>> So, so >> morality is merely >> Wait, no, Tim. Not the you guys.

[00:26:07]>> All right. And it seems that you again, can you imagine that there are atheists who hold your exact moral code that you you actually think the same thing with some atheists about all of your >> That's possible. [clears throat] I think that that's possible. It's unlikely that it's a it's a very small percentage of people.

[00:26:29]>> You just made that up. You have no idea if that's true or not.

[00:26:34]>> You have no idea if that's true or not.

[00:26:36]You just made that up.

[00:26:38]You don't have you don't have the you don't have the percentages.

[00:26:41]>> My intuitive take on on reality in your intuitive take is full of bias.

[00:26:48]>> Yeah. Let's not trust your intuitions here. Let's actually go with data.

[00:26:52]>> Be pro-life.

[00:26:54]>> I have. I've debated atheists on the on the on abortion.

[00:26:58]>> Dude, you don't know any atheists, do you?

[00:27:01]>> Atheist or pro-life?

[00:27:03]>> Oh my gosh. Um, sincere question here, Tim.

[00:27:07]>> Less than 10% of atheist, I'll give you that. How about that?

[00:27:10]>> No.

[00:27:11]>> How many atheists do you actually know?

[00:27:15]>> Like personally, like, >> yeah. So, before you start making these big judgments about atheists, perhaps your view has been skewed by your own life experiences. And maybe if you got to know some atheists, you actually might feel differently about it.

[00:27:35]>> Well, maybe maybe this is true. Um, so maybe I can attend uh you know an atheist meeting in my in my area and talk to them. But I would imagine that at least 90% of the the folks that claim to be atheist agnostic or pro-choice >> as a Christian throwing numbers out there.

[00:27:55]>> Stop doing that, dude. you like you just explained why it was wrong and then you just did it anyway.

[00:28:01]>> Yeah. Stop throwing out numbers until you have hard data to support your position.

[00:28:06]>> Oh, come on. I've I've listened to atheists talk for for a couple years now. At least on >> It doesn't matter. You've heard a very small You've heard a very You have a very small sample size. Let's not make any silly claims that you're not going to have any data to support.

[00:28:22]>> Well, it's not a silly claim to hold that most um It is a silly claim.

[00:28:27]>> Atheist are pro-choice.

[00:28:30]>> The baby while it's in the womb.

[00:28:32]>> You don't know that, Tim. I don't even know. I don't even know that, Tim. And if I, as an atheist, don't know that, you sure as hell don't know it.

[00:28:40]>> Okay. Well, Tim, we've got another person talking about a particular um moral conviction that atheists have.

[00:28:51]>> He's just gonna keep going.

[00:28:52]>> Okay, Tim. Hi. So, we've got another person in the queue, so I think we're going to have to bring this conversation to an end. Um, but thank you very much for your time and uh we appreciate you calling in.

[00:29:08]>> See, that's the thing about tag bros.

[00:29:10]They just don't know the basic definitions of words.

[00:29:14]>> Oh, yeah. Okay, we've got another one. Um, okay.