Why caste census necessary? | K. Ashok Vardhan Shetty IAS (Retd.) | Dr. J. Amalorpavanathan

[00:00:00]Hello and welcome to this program where we discuss issues of national importance.

[00:00:05]Earlier this month on the 4th, government of India announced its intention to conduct a national census.

[00:00:13]This is unique in two ways. For the first time, this is going to be digital.

[00:00:19]Secondly, this is the first time since India's independence that cast is going to be enumerated. Of course, schedule cast and schedule types have always been enumerated, but this is the first time that other casts are going to be enumerated. And to know and understand the various implications of this, we have here with us Mr. Ashokan Shetty, a former IAS officer and the former vice chancellor of Indian Maritime University who has written extensively on this subject both in English and Tamil.

[00:00:52]Welcome sir. Thank you.

[00:00:54]So let us start with understanding the need for cash census.

[00:01:00]Can you tell me briefly about the history of census in India?

[00:01:05]The first census was conducted in British India between 1865 and 1872 but it was conducted at different times in different parts of the country. It was not a simultaneous census. The first simultaneous census was conducted in 1881 and thereafter census has been conducted every 10 years. Decad census denial or decadal census from 1881 to 1931.

[00:01:30]All these censuses between 1881 and 1931 they enumerated cast all all casts.

[00:01:36]Okay. 1941 the census was not conducted due to the second world war and 1951 was the first census conducted in post independence India there government of India took a momentous decision not to enumerate casts yes in the census other than SC and ST I think it was a wrong decision I'll tell you why just a minute in even in 1931 the then Congress opposed cash census they even had January 11, 1931 as census boycott Sunday. What was the reason that they were opposing census?

[00:02:15]No, they have been opposing right from the beginning. Not just 1931, they've been opposing right from 1881. I mean, there a section of Indians has been opposing it. 1901, I think it was H Rley I think he was a census commissioner. He analyzes this issue. He comes out with a beautiful uh paragraph. He says whatever may be the pros and cons of uh conduct enumerating cast in the census you can't deny the fact that cast is the single most important factor determining an Indian's life I mean whether it's a Hindu or even yes I remember reading it's a famous quote of his he says with casting if you remove cast then I mean it doesn't make sense you know so these people have been see there's a famous this one Dr. Roman statesman called Cicero. He asked a question Q Bono Q Bonana who benefits from this? He says whenever somebody comes up with a policy proposal always ask this question who benefits from this. Now if some people are saying we want cast senses that means they are going to benefit from cost senses and usually these will be the people who are the victims of cast discrimination. Yes. And if some people say that cost census should not be conducted, that means they benefit by the cost census not being conducted and you can be reasonably certain that they will be the they are the people who are perpetrating cast disc. They're already enjoying the privileges enjoying the privileges. They don't want this to come out. They're already enjoying a disproportionate share of the nation's income, resources, you know, wealth. So they don't want that to be enumerated.

[00:03:48]That's the reason. So not for any other reason. Of course they usually give a bogey of you know national unity and communal harmony and all that but the real reason is people don't want the truth to come out to upset that power structure that they have I think not only in this case but in any case you can you should I think Cizuro's point is very correct Qo who benefits from this who benefits and who loses sir you have said that not animating cast in India is one of the biggest mistakes Yeah correct. In fact, it's not only you are so categorical about that and why is that so? It's not only my saying it. I mean uh Dr. Bedkar, he wrote an essay in 1955 called thoughts on linguistic states.

[00:04:34]There there's a famous passage passage in that essay. He says earlier I could justify my points with cast tables provided by the census. But in the 1951 census for some mysterious reason the union home minister and others have dropped the census of cast senses as a result I don't have the figures to justify and he uses a term he says this is the decision taken by a person of petty intelligence I mean says this is a decision taken by a person of petty intelligence the reason is this doctor if you want to do it is not just for reservations even if you want to do planning, if you want to, you know, see how different communities are progressing, you need cast data or you need data relating to that group. For example, if you want to come up with a scheme to benefit all disabled without data about how many disabled are there, what kind of how many deaf are there, how many this one are there and all that or how many are you know born like that and how many become later due to old age or accident. Without this kind of discrete data, you really can't draw up any plans or programs for their benefit.

[00:05:45]Similarly, if you want to draw up a program for the benefit of transgenders or orphans or nomads, you need data. So without data, I mean you can't really do anything. I mean you have heard this term evidence-based planning. Exactly.

[00:06:00]The problem with India in with us is we take decisions without data. If you don't count, you can't count. You can't count. So the point is if you want to really I mean do proper planning then you must have cast waste data and because as the H recently said cast is the single most important factor in Indian life Indian life and there is a thing there's a statement which says if you are don't figure in the official statistics then you don't exist you don't exist at all for all practical purposes you don't exist so you just be I mean so you are out of out of sight out of mind it's like the civil death of the person. Yeah, civil death of the person. So you have to I mean you have to figure in the official statistic. So that's why I think enumeration of cast is important and not doing it was uh the biggest mistake and it was also inconsistent because the reason given was the re because it's not as if they have not did enumerate cast at all. They have been enumerating schedule cast and schedule since 1951. Yes. And they are about 2,000 in number you know about,234 scheduled cars and about 698 scheduled tribes together. So you are enumerating 2,000 casts and tribes already. What is your difficulty in enumerating another 4,000 and odd casts and tribes casts you know for example the total number of casts according to anthropological survey of India is about 6,235 or something. So what's your difficulty in enumerating the extra 4,235 you know so it clearly shows that the argument is inconsistent another see how can you say enumerating a schedule cast or a scheduleled tribe is okay but enumerating a ger or a yadav or a you know redee or a patail is not okay I mean I don't see the logic in this argument government of India gave was at the time scheduled cars have reservations in electoral conferences in education and public employment other backward classes don't have but that's not strictly correct other backward classes also had reservations in education and public employment in most of the states they didn't have it in the center but in most of the states they had including Tamilad including Tamil Nadu and well before independence many of these states for example Kapur in Maharashtra introduced in 1902 Karnataka introduced in 1921 Tamil Nadu introduced in 1928 in fact Karnataka and Kapur introduced even before Tamil Nadu Kerala introduced sometime in 1930 So many of the states and provinces already had uh reservations and how can you implement reservations without data you know so not so who has got benefited by this the dominant OBC the dominant sections among the other backward classes and the upper class these are the people who benefited because of lack of data because of lack of lack of clear data sir in one of your earlier writings you said this is no longer a policy choice but a legal imperative. Yeah, it's quite forceful. Can you describe that? I'll explain why I'm saying this is several times this point has been challenged. You know in 2010 I remember a single judge of Madas High Court. He passed an order saying cast census should be conducted in 2010. This was stayed by the Supreme Court and sometime in 2014 if I remember right the Supreme Court said the court will not enter into get into this matter because it's a policy matter of the government. This is the Supreme Court's order. Similarly in 2021 the then Maharashtra government under Udak they filed a writ in the Supreme Court saying that castens should be done. The time government of India replied saying no this is a policy decision of the government court should not enter into interfere in policy matters and the two judge bench of the supreme court accepted the government of India's plea dismissed the Maharashtra government's case now this both these I mean orders of the supreme court dismissing this on the ground that this is a policy decision is wrong because this is not a policy decision this is a legal imperative I'll tell you why number one the constitution itself provides for reservations in as I already said for SC's it provides for reservations in electoral constituencies education and public employment public employment yes for OBC's it provided for provides for reservation in public employment and education and from 1993 onwards that is when the 73rd and 74th amendments of the constitutional for local bodies apart and municipalities reservation has been introduced in electoral constituencies not only for SC and ST but also for OBC's I mean a state if you it wants it can implement reservations for OBC's in electoral constituencies of municipalities and punit so it's very obvious that you know you and how can you implement reservation unless you have OBC data okay that number one number two when the Mandal commission judgment was passed in 1992 yes the Supreme Court said look you have introduced this resolution for OBC based on 1931 census data. This is outdated but anyway we are clearing it but here afterwards make sure that you will uh get the the list of backward classes based on 1931 data. This is very unsatisfactory. So you should periodically update your data. Now when do you update your data census? So the next census took place in 2001. That time they should have updated should have done cast census in 2001 itself. These people didn't do it. Was it not a violation of the Supreme Court directive? Technically yes but the same Supreme Court later says this is a policy edition you can't interfere. So the Supreme Court has not been consistent either. I mean it was the Supreme Court which said in uh what in the Mundal judgment Indra judgment that you need to update your OBC data but the same Supreme Court subsequently also said this is a policy matter for the government. It is not a policy matter of the government. I mean if you are when you're doing it for SE and ST you can't for a certain reason the same and the same reasons also apply to OBC's and now they apply to EWS among the upper class also and without any no economic economically weaker sections for classes other than SCST OBC which means effectively upper class a few other upper classes are also there but effectively that is done without any so now all sections of the society have reservation so obviously And Supreme Court earlier you may be knowing whenever this issue of reservation for SCST and OBC used to come Supreme Court would say where is the data. Yes. And though the constitution uses the word class the Supreme Court in m several judgments has said cast is an important determinant of class. No it's an important in fact Supreme Court in some judgments it said sole determinant. In some it said dominant determinance and some it said relevant relevant. So it has used different words at different times but consistently Supreme Court has said cast is an important determinant of class and you must show me you must show us cast data to for us to uphold the reservation. This has been the Supreme Court's consistent point all along but in the case of reservation 10% reservation for EWS among the upper class. There was no data about what percentage of the population is upper class and there was no data about what percentage of the upper class are economically weaker but still the Supreme Court without data they upheld that judgment you know in 2022.

[00:13:33]So the point is and there's one more thing I remember I told you about this uh reservation for uh OBC in municipalities in Punjab introduced by the 73rd and 74th constitution amendments in 1993 you won't believe it it's 32 years now doctor several states tried to implement this OBC reservation Karnataka Maharashtra Gujarat Madhya Pradesh Uttar Pradesh Orisa so many so States try to implement Supreme Court inv Madhya Pradesh also Supreme Court invariably stop it state saying where is the data OBC data now for just two states if I remember right Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh they allowed it to the OBC resolution to be done for many most of the other states they stayed it saying there is no costwise data now government of India is saying we'll not do cast or used to say now they of course they've changed their stance government of India used to say we won't do this a policy sedition we won't do it and supreme court is to say without that we will not uphold your reservation so in this between these conflicting stance I mean even that OBC reservation in municipalities and punit has also been not implemented properly properly so that is why you went on to say it's not even not just a legal imperative but also an administrative imperative that is a different point I'll explain uh doctor let us take OBC reservation reservation for OBC's now recently in 2017 the the NDA government appointed a commission called Justice Rohini Commission. Yeah.

[00:15:08]Rohini Commission. Yeah. Commission of the to decide to inquire into how you know this OBC reservations being implemented. Now the committee has given its report also I think 2023 or something but it's not disclosed. It has not been made public but things have been leaking into the media here and there. Now there's a very interesting statistics of the Justice Rohini Commission report from the what has been reported in the media. Just 10 OBC cars.

[00:15:34]There are about 2,600 or 2,700 OBC cars in India. Just 10 of them have taken up 25% of the OBC OBC reservation benefits. Just 10 cars have taken up 25% of the benefits. 2,600 700 700 cars. 25% of the OBC cars have cornered 97% of the benefit 25% of the OBC costs have cornered 97% of the benefit among the remaining 75% 38% of the OBC cars have got just 3% benefits and 37% of the OBC cars have got nothing zero so what does this tell you that the the dominant OBC's are cornering all the benefits now if you had proper data then we could have compartmentalized we could have compartment compartmentalized the OBC I think Andra has compartmentalized Tamil Nadu as you know has done OB BC and MBC BR also has done BC and EBC extremely backward but actually you need more than two you may need three four five no to make sure that only some communities don't take up all the benefits in Tamiladu itself I'm told among the MBCs there are some not six or 108 MBC cars I mean this is what I heard the chief secretary chief secretary told me once just four cars among them are cornering most of the benefits The rest are getting only the crumbs you know are not getting anything at all.

[00:16:58]The problem here is this doctor. There are some communities which are numerically strong and that because of that they're politically strong. Let's say one or yados or something. There are some communities which are numerically small but they're economically educationally socially strong like brahinss and other upper class. But there are lots of community casts which are neither which have neither numerical strength nor educational social strength economic strength or educational strength. those casts fall between the two stools. I won't be surprised if these casts haven't produced a single MLA, single MP, single is officer, single IPS officer, single professor. I won't be surprised. I'm not sure. But what I'm saying is there are and they don't have a voice also because they're numerically weak. So this is the problem. Now if you had cast if cast had been done, we could have seen which are the communities which are you know very weak which have not got any representation. they don't have anything then we could have targeted our programs at them you know we could have had not just I'm not talking only of reservations I'm also talking of this one yes sir but uh enumerating the cast is the first step to understand all this uneven distribution of power but I have also read that the census data need not be dulged no see last time you know I that will in 2011 doctor they messed up that cost senses We'll come to that later. The socioeconomic classes they messed it up.

[00:18:30]As I told you already, according to anthropological survey of India, there are only about 6,235.

[00:18:37]These guys came up with a figure of 46 lakh. They were ashamed to release it.

[00:18:41]So they said it's confidential otherwise it should be confidential because all the census data is made available. It's it's if you there's a website. So all other census data is made available.

[00:18:51]only this was not disclosed because they were they knew it was wrong and they were ashamed to disclose it. So I think this time if they do the cast census properly I don't think government will say that we'll hide it. I think they'll make it available to public. They should they should make it available. It's constitutionally I think constitution is a question of census data is made all the other census data is made available.

[00:19:11]All the other data yeah this should also be made available. Sir the the critics say that uh cast census is a divisive measure.

[00:19:22]What is your opinion on this? See this is the what the this is a standard bogy raised by the opponents of cast senses saying that it accentuates cast feelings. Yes, it is divisive. Now this is wrong for multiple reasons. First it is not as if you're not enumerating cast at all. As I already said about 25% of the population is being enumerated SC's and STS are being enumerated and their population is roughly about 25% of the there's no problem there. I mean we know for example in schedule tribes a few scheduled tribes are cornering most of the benefits. Similarly in schedule cast also a few schedule cast according but there has been no problem. I mean at least there is awareness that this is happening. So that argument is wrong.

[00:20:05]Number one. Number two we are enumerating religion in the senses. We are enumerating language in the senses.

[00:20:12]We are enumerating region in the senses.

[00:20:14]Now you'll agree with me that religion, language and region are as divisive as as inflammatory as cast. Of course you know India was of course partitioned on the basis of religion and India was divided into states on the basis of language. So to say that you know only when you enumerate cast I mean divisiveness happens is totally wrong.

[00:20:35]And another third argument is it is like I mean as you are a medical doctor so you know very well just because I refuse to take an X-ray my fracture or my tumor won't go away. I mean just because you don't enumerate cast the problems related to cast won't go away. They bound to be there. So it is as silly saying that just because I'm not enumerating cast will go away. It's not going to go away anywhere. It has been there for 3,000 years. And this argument of divisiveness is also bogus because cast has been dividing Indian society for 3,000 years even without census. So to say that it's because of census cast is dividing is absolute nonsense. And there's one more argument doctor census happens only in 10 years but on a day-to-day basis so many other things are happening. For example, people sport cast surnames. Sharma, Mishra, Shukla or whatever. Rei or whatever. People sport cast marks on their body. Okay. And only about 5% of Indians marry intercast. 95% of Indians are still marrying within the same within the same cast. When you election when you're giving tickets to candidates or choosing choosing ministers, it all is based on cast. I mean this is a correct thing. I mean you would like things to be distributed. So to say that just because we are not conducting cast senses cast distinctions will fade away is absolutely this one.

[00:22:03]If you really want to eliminate cast which is a tall order I mean people from Buddha to Kabir to Nanak and all have tried and failed. If you really want to do eliminate cast you have to do the following. Number one ban the use of cast names. Government of India didn't do that. They should done it immediately after independence. Number two, ban the sporting of cast marks. They don't want to do that because they think it is very sensitive. I'm not I'm saying if you really want to do it, if you are going to publicly display your cast every day and then you're objecting to census being conducted once in 10 years, that's a serious contradiction in your stance.

[00:22:38]Third, you should encourage intercast marriages in a big way. That is the only way you can make cast go away. In fact, Dr. Dr. used to hammer this point again and again that the only way to get rid of this cast system if not immediately over a period of time is to encourage intercast marriages in a big way but after so many years we find that intercast percentage of intercast marriages is only 5%. Okay. Then I forgot to mention one point. There is a residential segregation by cast in villages and many small towns even today colonies. I'm a colonies and are in one place in another. I have seen that myself. So and even burial playgrounds also sometimes segregated by cast. It's a big problem. So Kener if you notice he introduced a scheme called some of where people of all casts stay together live together live together. So that is a character. So if you really want to eliminate cast you have to do the following things and you also have to encourage Hindu seers and sages saying you guys what government can't do you guys can do you promote abolition of cast and you know intercast marriages and all in a big way they should do that so if you really want to do away with cast these are the steps you should take to say that by not conducting cast senses we'll do we'll be we'll be able to get rid of cast is ridic ridiculous. You not conducted cast senses for last so many 70 years. Have you been able to get rid of cast? You have not been able to. Sir, you have been an IIA officer for a long time. But I met some IIA officers who think this is going to be an administrator's nightmare.

[00:24:12]They are really afraid of this. No, no, no. That's again a lie. It's again a bogey created by our people. I'll tell you for two, three reasons. In US for example, they enumerate race. You know, enumerate race. USA they don't enumerate religion in USA because it's supposed to be a secular country so they don't enumerate religion but they enumerate race ethnicity and things like this as you you'll agree enumerating race difficult I mean because there are a lot of mixed races and it's difficult but enumerating cast is not difficult every Indian knows what his cast is and every Indian knows whether his cast belongs to the you know OC BC MBC CS I mean whatever it is there any can you think of a single Indian who doesn't know what his cast is or to which category his cast belongs. No. So there is absolutely no nobody has a doubt about what cast there may be a doubt about which race you belong to but there can be no doubt about which cast you belong to. That is the first argument. Second SC and ST already I said we are already enumerating them. I mean 25% of the population you are already enumerating and you have been doing it since 1951. In fact even before independence you are doing it. So what is the big deal? I mean if you can enumerate 2,000 SC's and schedule tribes STS why can't you do another 4,000 and odd other casts and you know OBC's and upper class you can do it so that's not a problem at all these are lame excuses you know conjured up conjured by people who don't want their privileged position to be exposed a cost sensor should be able to tell us this for example even things like under trials and prisoners in jails. Yeah.

[00:25:50]What is the cost wise break up? Now supposing you find that the lower cost of the people are the ones who are there in jail which actually I think is the case empirical is the correct thing also. That's a shocking you can take corrective action you you can find out why this is happening. You know you should know this. Similarly, you would like for example, I remember there was a news I'm basing this on news item. Orisa has about 22 23% of scheduled tribes you know but they didn't have in in 2022 or 2023 when this article appeared there was not even a single judge not I'm not talking of high court and supreme court I'm talking of district court and below subordinate judiciary there was not even a single schedule tribe judge in Odisa in 2022 23 in a state which has 23% schedule tribe population so most of the other states also Maharashtra Gujarat West Bengal also they have sizable schedule tribe population but you'll find that even in the subordinate judiciary they don't have uh I think that's true of every states most of the states I mean Tamiladu and all is okay situation is okay at the aggregate level also it's bad now supposing your cast some casts are underrepresented in judiciary some casts are underrepresented in police some casts are underrepresented in general administration there's a very good chance that people of that cast will be discrim of those casts will be discriminated they may end up in jail or their lands may be seized. No, they there there will be nothing they can do because the court is full of I mean they they can't turn to the courts, they can't turn to the police, they can't turn to the district administration. So this it's a very important thing similarly Dr. Land ownership know who is actually owning the land which communities are owning the land other assets houses you know financial assets who are who are owning the land how much you know who which community is owning the landless agriculture laborers yes which what is the cast wise break up of landless agriculture laborers most probably it will be SC's and Tamil Nadu for example it may be scheduled cost one year something like this BCS and SC so you need to know this how are you going to plan at all if you don't have this breakup you know you need this breakup will it fuel the increased demands for reservations let it because we have seen that maratas in no it is actually claiming status it is actually the other way around doctor I mean people it is actually it is because we don't have data people think anything goes even let's say I'm not saying that marata I don't know really know how well they represented they are how will do this one what I'm saying is if you had data proper data you can tell the maratas look you guys constitute 16% of the population I'm just saying hypothetical example you have got 20 I mean 20% of the officers in the state government are maratas I'm just giving hypothetical example I'm not saying this is the case your land ownership in if you look at it is 40% of the lands are owned by maratas if you look at judiciary I mean 25% of judges subordinate judges and others maratas I'm just giving a fictitious example so I don't so we can say look your demand is not justified or if some other community let's say some other community us and I mean their percentage of population is uh 10%. But their share in various assets and you know thing is 5% or 2% then you know that it is justified. So that argument all these are misleading arguments doctor you can I mean you can't whether somebody Marata's demand is genuine patar's demand is genuine Gujar's demand is genuine wa's demand is genuine or not you can decide only if you have on facts on data if you don't have data everybody can ask for can ask for the moon so will so try to inflate their numbers see when the government also likes this fuzzy data to be to prevail because then they can take uh you know decisions arbitably. Now supposing proper data was there and uh let's say I'm just giving an example let's say community X their actual percentage is uh 15%. And government just for political reasons they give them 20% reservation or something. I'm just giving hypothetical example. Somebody can go to court. Why on what basis is government you know given percentage more than their share? And first of all giving castwise representation itself is not correct. I mean you should only group casts and giving for any one cast is not correct.

[00:30:19]I mean because there are 2,600 6,000 cast how are you going to give castwise?

[00:30:24]So you should group cast into categories you know. So anyone cast asking for so much that's not correct but even if they make the demand the only way to counter that demand is to have proper data and only a cost census can give you that proper data. If you don't have data then anything goes that those people can there used to be a joke that during MJ's time that each MJR asked different communities how much is your population and they each gave a figure when MJR added up it was more than three times Tamad's population so something like that happens this is what is happening everywhere it is the lack of data which is making emboldening people to ask for all make all kinds of absurd demands and it's the lack of data which is empowering government to take arbitrary decisions Sir census will only give us the cash status. Yeah. But to demand availing reservation, one has to prove social and economic backwardness. And that cannot be proved by census. Or can it be? That is not the purpose of the no census can give a lot of see individual some people even say you know census the enumerator people may lie about their cast to the enumerator. That's a bogus argument again because your cast is not determined by what you tell the census enumerator. Your cast is determined by the certific community certificate that your taselar or deputy tasar or audio is going to give you. So that is a separate exercise on a case by case basis. People will people have to apply for community certificate or cast certificate and get it. So what you tell the census enumerator is not the thing the final thing and why should people lie? I mean supposing you are a schedule cast member why should you lie saying you're not or if you are people tell the truth they will tell the truth only but that is not that's a bogus argument that you know people uh will lie about their cast and all that so whether you are really poor or not whether you belong to that cast or not that will be done by revenue authorities on a case by case basis. Now coming to the other part of your saying census is not just a headcount they ask a lot of questions about you for example the kind of housing you are living in.

[00:32:31]Yes. I mean is it a katcha house, paka house, semipaka house? Now as you know anybody living in a mud walled thatch roof mud floor house has to be dirt poor. Now in Tamil Nadu for example in 2010 we introduced a scheme called vualum housing scheme. For that we did a enumeration of all the huts in Tamil.

[00:32:52]Madwald thatch group mud floor houses.

[00:32:55]There are some 22 lakhs in Tamil. 22 lakhs and we found the not cast wise but the grouping wise you know survey we analyzed it through very interesting statistics for example upper cast people living in huts was only about 7% of the huts upper cast upper casts whereas the upper cast population in Tamilad is about 3%.

[00:33:20]Schedule cast huts share is 2.8% whereas their population share is less than 1%.

[00:33:25]But the hut share is 2.8%.

[00:33:28]Mbcs their population MBC and D notified communities their population share is about 26 27%. Hut share is about 41.5%.

[00:33:40]Sher cast their population share is about 23 or something% and Hut share is 31.2%. So MBC's HU share is more than the schedule cash share also and BC's their population share is some 40 n% the HU share is 23 24%. So this anybody who is living in such thatched roof mudwalled mud uh floor housing is dirt poor you can be damn sure. So this gives an interesting uh breakup I mean something we personally collected I personally collected as to how the distribution of you know I mean which so you find that lot of MBCs are poor I mean and the SCS are poor the reason why the SC percentage is slightly less is because there's been a scheme for converting government of India scheme for much earlier I mean much earlier it was not there for NBC that's the reason but it also shows that NBC's are poor this is one The BR car survey 2023 doctor they did an interesting uh one of the things they studied was they came up with a category called professional degree or PG degree.

[00:34:47]They they wanted to find out what percentage of people in each cast have a professional degree or PG degree. You know they found that kayas they had almost 11% of the kay have either a PG degree or uh professional degree. Kaya are backward communities.

[00:35:06]No they're forward community. They the equivalent of pil in Tamil Kais they're very educated community and they have 11% of kay have one of these degrees.

[00:35:17]Okay. Second is bumihar about 5.39 5.4%.

[00:35:22]Bumihar are landowning community. Yeah.

[00:35:23]landowning community upper class community brams are 4.85%.

[00:35:29]You know then you have this kushwahas these are upper class these three are upper class in BCs you have kushwaha yadav no these two kushwa is only 1.47% 47% and yadu is only82%. We think that yados are doing quite well but actually the percentage of yadus having these degrees is only82% in br then you have extremely backward classes like nonia mala you know their percentages are 22%.20% yeah degree that's a fairly good indicator of their backwardness then among ess you have chamar 44% mushar 1% not and schedule tribes 42%.

[00:36:13]So mushar point not even though I mean census data of has been available but the mushars have been neglected. So that's why you know there's no guarantee that just because the data is there the right policies will be framed but without data nothing will be nothing will be framed. So these are interesting statistics all these you can I mean now what does the statistics tell you? I mean these statistics tell you such an uneven uneven uh distribution distribution. The same thing you can do it for everything. I mean you can do it for housing, you can do it for uh you know kind land ownership, you can do for you know financial assets ownership you know you can do it for uh as I told you under trials and uh this one you can do for small businesses which community I mean castwise break up of businesses small businesses cast wise break up of people in managerial jobs break up of you know judges and this and that I mean anything you can do it for anything now it's not as if people don't know I mean everybody knows to say that you know just because you do cost senses there's going to be tension and all that's all not true everybody knows that certain communities are cornering most of the benefits everybody knows it it's not as if there has been this but a cost census will put these figures on a firm footing firm footing neither government can play around nor individual communities can play around So hopefully after the next census we will have enough data scientific data correct on which we can ground our policies so that this unevenness can be at least reduced here visible extent. I think we missed out. I mean I would think that this is a I mean though Nero did Jal Neu did so many things right but this was a big this was one of the big mistake he did I think that's a old you know didn't do anything about that I don't know what they're doing but there's a famous saying of Peter Ducker you know you can't manage something unless you measure measure so if you want to manage something you need to measure it so if you don't measure it you you're not going to manage it you you're only going to be bullshitting saying We'll do this we'll do we not actually somebody described census as taking a full body CT scan unless you take a CT scan you will not know where the abnormality lies and unless you know where the abnormality lies you can't surgically excise it or treat it with medicine so you need a CT scan of the country correct that's correct it's like I mean there been described as a selfie of the country group photograph of the country I think CT scan is the best description I think it tells you exactly where the problems lie you know sir we'll go on to yeah the the ill-famed SECCC of 2011.

[00:38:57]Yeah. What were the key reasons that SECCC failed? Sir, doctor, as I already told you, the Mundal judgment in 1992 and the local body amendments, the 73rd and 74th amendment 1993, they made a cast senses mandatory. There's no question of uh being a policy addition or optional and all that. In 2001, they should have done it. They didn't do it.

[00:39:23]In 2010 what happened is the parliament passed a unanimous resolution with all parties on board including BJP and Congress saying that cost census will be done in the next census which is 2011 census. Yes. So that time the UPA 2 government was there in power for some reason instead of getting this work done through the census commissioner you know they I don't know whether the census commissioner passed the buck or government itself decided otherwise we don't know what really happened. They did this work through the rural development department and the urban development department of government of India none opposed to that time sir I don't know I really don't know I mean because this is a major policy shift no census had always been done by him by the census commissioner maybe census commissioner was and it's a statutory organization he might have been providing some u support and all that but it should have been done by him I mean these two department shouldn't come in at all why I'm saying it's just an executive department they have no expertise in conducting complex social sociological or anthropological surveys. I mean at the most they would have done some below the poverty line survey or hut survey or you know that's not their job. Yeah that's not their job. So first of all they shouldn't have been involved at all. I'm saying two departments which has whose expertise doesn't lie in this. They shouldn't have been involved. The involving them itself was wrong and they designed an open-ended questioner. Open-ended means they simply asked you what is your cast and they recorded. Now as you know the same cast name For example name Rao it applies to multiple casts from brah means to sh there are multiple communities which have the name I mean bra means obc everybody there's another name like nayak it is there in multiple cast sing it is there in multiple casts badari is there in multiple cast this is one thing then there could be spelling mistakes also you may spell I r i y e r or a i y a r depending on how these guys took it down and as you know there are Tapkas you know for example if you take brahins then you have tamil brahmins within tamil brahinss you may have ayangars dshas palatayars among ayangars you may have so when when I ask you a question you may reply I mean one ayangar may say I'm an ayangar another person may say I'm a vakal another person may say I'm a tenar third person may simply say I'm a tamil brahmin there is no standardization no nothing different people said different things as you know. So somebody will the enumerators they had no idea of these things. Yeah. They simply wrote down somebody spelled his name as I e r they wrote him down as I y somebody spelled his name as a i y this so they became different casts. So because of this slipshot manner in which you can't ask an open-ended question you know you should give it as a list closed list. So what happened they ended up with something like 46 lakh cars which is an absurd figure. Then that's why government didn't publish it. They said we'll use this data for socioeconomic planning and all. I don't see how you can use it. It's such an absurd figure panagara they constitute a committee under him in 2015 to see if this data can somehow been retrieved. But he said nothing can be done about it. He went back to USA. So the point is in contrast Bihar when 2023 our friend Nitesh Kumar did the cast survey. He did a very neat job. What he did is he found that there were 214 cars specific to Bihar. So he listed all the 214 and he added a fifth another category called others. He gave this list to the enumerators and even there as you know most of these cars are state specific most of the cars are state specific and within a state many of the cars are district specific you know. So, so he gave that supposeding that some casts are only in some districts and not in others you know then then or as you know most of the casts are only state specific so nitumar did a good job he just gave this 214 plus category and everything went off smoothly your job is only to tick one one of the things but if you prescribe an open-ended questionnaire saying what is your different different people write some people even gave their gora name some people give their clan name some people give their subcast name Some people give their cast name. Some people give the mega cast name. You know mega cast meaning you say Brahmin. I understand. Somebody may say Tamil Brahman. Somebody may say, somebody may say, somebody may say, somebody may say everything each became a separate entry and some spellings may be different.

[00:43:55]Ayar spelling may be different spelling may be different. But 46 lakhs is such a huge absurd figure. I don't know if I mean people there's a thing called handlin razor. I don't know if you understand never ascribed to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity stupidity yeah so whether this is a case of handling razor or that is sheer incompetence or it was deliberately sabotaged I was coming to that question do you think it's just an administrative incompetence because that moment that they are going to give it to a executive department taking it away from senses that itself smells some malice there no mean sitting here and at this distance of time we really can't say but I will say this much but why did they no I I'll say this much doctor if government of India is properly is able to properly conduct the census of,234 scheduled casts and 698 scheduled tribes that is about 2,000 scheduled casts and scheduled tribes properly why can't it conduct the census of another 4,000 OBC's and uppercas properly yes you are it is not as if you are doing it for the first time you have been doing this enumeration of SCS from for the last so many years. So that makes you think that this was a sabotage. I mean sabotage or just plain incompetence. I mean the officers who are in charge of it. They didn't think things through. They didn't I mean they just prescribed an open-ended questionnaire. But I think the policy decision was definitely something. I mean they should have said that look whatever you have done in with SC and ST follow the same procedure here. I don't know. I mean it looks very strange. I mean I don't know. I really can't explain. So if we contrast Yeah. SEC 2011 with what Nitishh Kumar did in 23.

[00:45:40]Yeah. You think Nitishhumar did a Yeah.

[00:45:42]He did a good job. We have to give credit to him. He did a fantastic job.

[00:45:45]It went that is for the first I mean even Karnataka also did in 2015. They didn't disclose it. They didn't disclose it. Then uh Andra did Telangana did it.

[00:45:55]They also didn't disclose it. So if you if you're not disclosing it that means you something wrong or you're not sure of yourself. Nitesh Kumar disclosed it.

[00:46:05]He came out with a clear thing. So which shows that he was on the right track.

[00:46:08]But Nitish Kumar went only one step and stopped there. No, he did. See what I why I'm saying he did a correct job is because he had the courage to disclose the publish the results. Yes, he did publish and there wasn't too much of criticism. Nothing at all. The usual not that I know of. So it was no it first thing important thing is it showed that this census can be done all those people naysayers and doomayers and all who said can't be done at all it is an administrative nightmare and all this prove wrong proved them wrong now if BR can do it don't tell me that the government of India can't do it and the British were doing it the British did the enumerated cast from 1881 to 1931 how did they do it you know this is so if we describe 2011 ACC as a dismal failure. Yeah. So what lessons do we draw? No, there are multiple lessons to be learned from this which I hope they will incorporate in the 2027 census. They should otherwise we don't want to repeat of this.

[00:47:10]Sometimes I fear you know the these guys may mock it up once again and then say cast census is impossible to do. It's an administrative nightmare. I but I'm sure government of India will not allow that to happen. Now there are some uh things which you need to keep in mind.

[00:47:25]First thing is the census act 1948 should be amended to make cast as one of the parameters. Yes. Now many even though I find some articles saying without amending the census act you all you have to do is just add cast as a parameter. No, there's a difference between amending the act and adding cast as a parameter. not amending the act and I think because when you include it in the cast in the census act amend the act and include cast in the parameter then people yeah it'll become with you know it has a legal backing it is legal backing number one and it will not change according to the whims whims of the future governments you know it exactly and you can hold people to account you can say that there's a legal backing you can hold people to account that's the first point in 2010 instead of passing a unanimous resolution in the parliament saying cast census should be done In 2011, parliament should have amended the act you know they should have amended the census act they didn't do that instead they did this now if they had amended the census act it would have been difficult for the future governments to remove that thing you know so I feel first thing is they should amend the because even this announcement is not with the constitutional amendment statute to amend yes no I'm saying this is not good enough it should the act should be amended the census act should be amended and you should specific typically say cast will be one of the important key parameters. That is number one. Number two, the job should be done by the census commissioner. He's the expert. He's the domain expert and it should not be delegated to RD department, urban development department and all these departments who have no expertise in doing this. This mistake of 2011 should not be repeated. It is you don't need a separate soioeconomic cost sensor. The single census should have this.

[00:49:13]The number three as I said what like nitish there should not be any open-ended questionaire what is your cast you shouldn't ask a dumb question like that because and you should not ask one question even if you ask only one question also it's going to be wrong you shouldn't say you know for example there should be at least four questions I would see that you should ask what is your cast what's the larger cast group what is the subcast and what is your cast surname if any some people may not have cast surname for example somebody says I'm ra doesn't mean anything I mean he could be Brahman, he could be a you know Naidu, he could be a SC, he could be anybody. I mean so asking for cast alone is of no use. You should actually ask multiple you should ask subcast name. You should ask bigger group name and like let me give the example in the case of ayangar let's say cast name would bear subcast would be vakar the larger cast group name may be brain tamil brahmin I mean like that and your surname cast name may be say shadri or something whatever it is anyway this census is going to be digital and it's going to be a drop box yeah drop down yeah it should drop down menu where the people only have to tick So the the list and luckily for luckily most of the costs are limited. You may say there are 6325 casts it doesn't mean every state has 63. Most of the casts are state specific. In fact I would say that many of the casts are even district specific.

[00:50:37]Some of the some of the minor costs are only district specific. So easily you can limit the thing. First thing is no open-ended entry. It should be drop- down menu and you have to choose. Fourth point is you should finalize the list of names of each state carefully. I mean if you ask the state government they will tell you what are the costs in the state. Each state will clearly tell you and you should also ask you know some sociological and anthropological experts. Why I'm saying is government also is not infallible. I mean our fellows may give you some wrong figure saying they may forget some very small community which is there in Greece or somewhere in Kodakar Hills or something they may forget overlook that so apart from asking the state governments for list of casts and this one you should also ask sociological and anthropological experts as to what are the costs let's say in Tamil Nadu there may be some small cast with some 100 people in Salem kine hills or you know they won't even come anywhere they were this is this The second third is you should give a public uh you should publish the list in the newspapers and others in the saying these this is the tentative list of costs in Tamil Nadu or Bihar or whatever according to us if any cost has been left out please bring it to a notice these three steps have to be taken consult with the state government consult with the sociological and anthropological experts and give a public notice and give reasonable time 2 months 3 months because sometimes public notice what the government missed and the experts missed the public will point out. So, so this is the item number four or whatever it is. Item number five is you should train the enumerators well. I mean last time the enumerators were not trained at all. I mean undertrained I would say you should train them well and you should train them in the cast nuances of each district or each locality. For example, each district or each has its own cast nuances. you know that I mean the kas in digital district are different from the kas in tali or the kas in dhvaburi so when any should be trained you know properly trained they should be you know told dos and don'ts clear dos and don'ts don't mistake this I mean they should be trained you know for in this census I think they are going to 24 lakhs enumerators yeah no it's not just the number it's how well they're going to be trained that's what I read in some report more important thing is how well they are going to be trained exactly Next point doctor people will always say our community was underounted that community was magnified that's not possible because everybody has to collude and uh this one as far as possible I mean you should mix up the enumerators not post enumerators in areas where their cast is dominant dominate so that you know these allegations of you know in Karnataka for example they say the linga and say our numbers have been deliberately reduced I mean people say that we know it can't be True people may make mistakes in counting or enumeration but I don't think they they can deliberately underount a particular cast and overount another cast that is not possible when so many people are involved so many lacks of lacks of people are involved but anyway to we must make sure that there is there are no allegations of bias and you know allegations deliberately left out they left us out or something those kind of so you should train them well and mix them I mean more than training it's also deploy them properly the most important thing I would say thing is you must pilot test it doctor before piloting see last time what they made is without any pilot testing they simply got down you should pilot test it in at least four different states I would say one in the south maybe Tamil Nadu one in one in the west say Gujarat or Rajasthan one in the north say UP or whatever one in the east say Assam because each state has got some different dynamics do a pilot and within the state Maybe you would first do a pilot in two or three districts then you scale it up to the state then you scale it up to the roll it out to the whole nation because when you do the pilot in the the district you will know the defects you know what is the problem then you can correct it you know you can so it's very very foolish to you know roll out the thing in the such a massive pilot yeah without piloting it you know the the general management fund as you know is think big start small scale fast that's what they So you have to have a clear big picture but you must always start small and then you must learn lessons from the mistakes you have committed and then scale fast. So that is a very important thing. You must have a system you know where you monitor the thing and I would suggest that in the district level you must have a cell under the collector of somebody which receives complaints because people may say look our nobody came to our locality they didn't know they left this out they left that out. I mean it it's a general complaint about sensors but with the cost there scope for more complaints you know so you should have a grievance redressal cell kind of thing you know anything you should also do some test check I mean I I would also say test check whether these guys are doing it correctly I mean all these things have to be done and the last point which I would say is this is very important the reason why 2011 failed I mean I as I said it could be handling razor it could be a case of sheer incompetence but it looks more like a deliberate sabotage.

[00:56:05]So you must realize government should realize that there are powerful forces working to sabotage these things. So even if the central government is dead serious they want to do a good job of it. They can't do it by themselves. They have to depend upon the state governments they have to depend upon a whole army of staff and the staff some many of the staff may belong to casts which don't don't approve of the cast senses you know. So there'll always be a government should be wary of this. They should be aware of the point that this is not going to be an easy exercise.

[00:56:36]There is there are powerful forces in favor of cast senses but there are equally powerful forces against census who will try to sabotage it. So trying to overcome this attempts to sabotage the census you can't just leave it like that. I mean government should periodic I think they should issue a stern warning. I would I would in fact say that they should issue a stern warning that look we are spending a hell of a lot of money in this exercise. We don't want any if anybody is found to be doing any mischief we will come down upon you heavily and that I think that warning is necessary otherwise it will be sabotaged at different levels maybe not at the country level but in some local pockets here and there it may be sabotaged.

[00:57:14]Yeah, this piloting is a very good concept especially for such a mammoth exercise like this. But I think over the years this over centralization of powers has led to some sort of arrogance where they think they are always right and others are always wrong and so many of the massive programs were not pilot tested at all and so they fail. So this is I mean this is a problem both at the state level and the central level.

[00:57:44]doctor that is even when I remember I I mean I was in the government suddenly I mean one fine day the government somebody gives a bright idea smart idea to the chief minister or somebody and he announces the scheme for the whole state now that's not the way to do it you should always pilot the thing learn from the mistakes and then scale it up now there's one last point you mentioned it this is going to be a digital census you know normally doctor the after the census is done the processing and collecting and classifying you should take 2 years, 4 years, 6 years also sometimes now because it's being done digitally that time span will be considerably reduced I mean the processing but they should do it correctly a lot of people think just because you're doing it digitally it'll be it'll be correct no I mean I mean all the unless you take all these precautions merely because digital digital doesn't mean anything and digital also as you said the person has to only choose I mean he has to choose the list of casts or list of this one and sometimes you know you will find that some category has been left out not just in cast even in census something has been left out so it is a I mean I would say that the cast is just one parameter and uh census as a whole is a very complicated exercise but it can be done it has been done and every country in the world is doing census and if India can't do it then who can I mean we have got a we have been doing it since 1865 so definitely we can do it one Last question to you before we wind up. Yeah.

[00:59:16]Census is only once in a decade. Yeah.

[00:59:20]But society is very fluid. There's constant movement upwards and downwards of communities, casts and groups. So in between two senses. Yeah. Do you advise some sort of surveys at the district level at the state level to finetune your There's a very good welfare measures. Very good question doctor. As you rightly said, census is done only once in 10 years. But government of India is doing a lot of other surve what are called surveys. Yes. The national sample survey organization and other government agencies. Your health also all these guys all these guys are doing surveys. Some are done every year, some are done once in three years, some are done once in four years. Whatever it may be, the fun that applies to census also applies to the surveys.

[01:00:06]Gone are the days when you will enumerate only SC and ST. Yeah, you have to enumerate all categories. I mean you have to enumerate SC, you have to enumerate ST, you have to enumerate OBC, you have to enumerate upper class. If in backward classes there are multiple categories, you have to enumerate all of them because depending on census alone is not the thing. All these periodic government surveys and even non-government surveys also I mean they all of them should have this cast has parameter this mental block against including cast. It is not a mental block. It's a deliberate thing as I told you and I think I would like to say one more thing doctor. I mean I call this as policy schizophrenia. I said doctor you know what's see on the one side our constitution says we should implement policies of social justice that is in the constitution itself in the constitution mentioned in the preamble mentioned in different articles of the constitution.

[01:01:01]And the other side we are also talking about abolishing cast and being cast blind in our policies. Now the two things don't go don't sit together. I mean either you say we'll not implement social justice policies we'll not have reservation we'll not look at then okay cast blindness is fine but once you say we are going to implement social justice policies and the constitution itself provides for it and once supreme court itself has said that cast is an important determinant of class then where is the question of you are not uh I mean the very I'm astonished that for the last so many years we have been getting away with this kind of you know so there is this is what I call as policy schizoprenia I I mean we seem to be suffering. I mean we want to be cast blind and we also want to implement uh social justice. The two things don't go together. The two things don't go together. I mean you have to be either cast blind and forget about social justice or you implement social justice in which case cast comes into the picture. You can't leave it out. The census will definitely so the same fun.

[01:02:02]I'm sorry to this. So what applies to census? The same argument applies to the various periodic surveys. Surveys also must count cast cost. All casts. Yeah sir. So um the cast s census Yeah. will definitely give us more clues about the uneven spread of power and resources in this country and therefore greater demand for social justice and devolution of power. So for that at least we'll have to support this inclusion of cast in the census. I would like to make one small point doctor. Yes sir.

[01:02:37]We have been doing the census of SE and ST for last uh right from 1941 even before 1931 also I think they did it or something we have been doing it the data is staring in our face. I gave you the example of that Mashar community in Bihar but I mean the government is still there and everybody knows that in schedule tribes a handful of scheduleled tribes is cornering most of the benefits. Same also in schedule costs a handful of schedule costs are most of the benefit. OBC I already gave you the data. Now collecting data is essential.

[01:03:10]Without data you can't do anything. But just because data is collected it doesn't mean government will act on it.

[01:03:17]I mean government may sit on the data.

[01:03:19]Government may not do anything. But that is not an excuse for not collecting the data. Let us collect the data. Once you collect the data I mean once the data is in the public domain pressure can be put on the government saying look look at the mashars why are they doing so badly or look at the MBCs in Tamil Nadu only you know four communities are cornering all the benefits one or four communities are doing very badly many of them don't have a single MLA or MP or this one so all these questions kind of questions can be pressure should be I mean there's nothing wrong in a democracy doctor democracy is all about representation people representation and it's not enough if representation is there only in the elected bodies assemblies representation should be there in the executive representation should be there in the judiciary I mean you know the well-known statistics in the five years period between 2018 and 2022 79% of the high court judges that are appointed were upper class you know MBC OBC's were some 13% SCST some 34% this is not due to mean lack of merit or I think it is just people supporting members of their own cast. I mean but once data is available now because of this there's been a lot of debate in the media they say look you guys are favoring your own community men or cast men so even the supreme court or high court they'll feel a little awkward next time you know they won't do it so brazantly and I gave you the example of this Orisa scheduleled tribes I mean though they are 23% scheduleled tribes there's not even a single schedule tribe judge in the I mean magistrate or judge in the subordinate judiciary these are all atrocious things only data can highlight it. But without data, you wouldn't know anything. You it's like you're virtually driving blind. I mean you're driving the car blind like that.

[01:05:06]But with data there is still no guarantee that government will redress the thing. But at least you're in a position to address it. For example, let's say you have the cost breakup of under trials and uh jail inmates. I mean that tells you something. I mean you then you may say is is there a problem here? I mean is it that the dominant I mean the rival community people are occupying all the key posts in police and judiciary and others and pushing these people into the jails. I mean you will ask these questions you know sir that brings us to the end of this very very interesting conversation what you said struck me deeply that unless you open the bandage and see the wound you can't heal it correct so gas senses is first opening the bandage. Yeah. And that's the first and most important step if you want to really address Yeah. the healing of the wound. Thank you very much sir. In fact I used if I may say so a sentence which I used in my last article on cast senses was in the Hindu was this. A nation that refuses to see itself cannot heal itself. Yeah like that I read that I use that sentence. I think that's true. If you refuse to look at your wounds then obviously you're not going to even think of healing it. Yeah.

[01:06:20]Healing it. Yeah. The first step to heal is to see. Yeah. See, so senses will allow us to see with that hope in this.