Why Two Things Can Be True About Sandy Brondello’s Comments

[00:00:00]Sandy Brondello's intent is separate of the impact, right? And that is where again we can separate who Sandy is, which again Sandy is not a clown. She is not someone who has a bad reputation in this league. She's a beloved coach beyond just again what she's done in this league from that. I think was really evident in the number of of people who came out after the fact and were like, "Listen, Sandy made a mistake, but she's not a bad person."

[00:00:38]Hello everyone and welcome to No Offseason. I'm Zena Kada. I'm Annie Costable. And [music] I'm Sabrina Merchant. And today on the show, the WNBA continues to dominate [music] the sports conversation. As you could say, it is a movie. drama on the court, off the court, lots of storylines, and we're going to break it all down. All the latest headlines from the league office to the hardwood, and we're going to discuss everything that's generating debate, the stars that are putting on unforgettable performances, and the biggest story lines driving the season forward. But first, one of the biggest performances of the season was delivered by Caitlyn Clark on Friday night.

[00:01:15]Caitlyn exploded for a franchise record 45 points, leading the Indiana Fever to a comeback win over the Seattle Storm.

[00:01:22]also was the first player in WNBA history to get a 40 plus point game plus 10 assists as well in that same one. And it was kind of the performance that you would expect out of Caitlyn Clark with the lore that goes behind her, right?

[00:01:35]The big shots, the big moments um and then adding another record to her growing resume. So, want to know ladies, Sabrina, Annie, when you watch this game, what did you like about the way that K Clark was playing um offensively especially? I think this was such a big stretch for Caitlyn and the fever this week because of the three games and four nights and considering all of the minutes management and you know load management that Caitlyn has been under over the last year and a half. Really to see her have this performance in the midst of those three games was the most impressive part to me that she was able to be as effective have the legs on her jumper even after playing Golden State two nights prior. Uh that was really impressive to me. And then, you know, just the you you mentioned the 45 and 10 coming from Caitlin, but like that is on top of the 30 points coming from Kelsey Mitchell who had the >> 17 points in the first quarter to really just establish this heater that both Indiana Fever guards would be on. And to think that like all of that and Seattle still was within one possession by the end of the game is really impressive for this very young Storm team. But yeah, I think the context of hey, like we're getting into the stretch of the season again, we can't afford to have you sitting out one game, playing the next game. Malia Boston wasn't available in this game against Seattle, right?

[00:02:45]Because of all of the injury management that Indiana has to do at this point. We need you more often, Caitlyn. What can you give us? And she was able to give them like really just an incredible offensive showing.

[00:02:56]>> Unreal.

[00:02:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Piggybacking off of what Sabrina just said in terms of how impressive it was considering what she's navigated from an injury standpoint this season, I got to say it was her efficiency um and her aggressiveness. In the fourth quarter, she had 16 points in the fourth quarter, shot 11 for 18 from the field, including six for 10 from three. She tied Tama to make a catchings for the most made free throws in a single game in franchise history. So, all around, I think her efficiency is is what really, you know, was the most noteworthy thing beyond the historic 45 points. Also, I wonder if she's going to frame the shoes she wore for this game.

[00:03:38]you know, I mean, the white and blue, >> right? It was the first game that she had won in her um exclusive signature shoes. And I mean, based on her postgame interview, her saying like she didn't really care. I feel like she probably is not going to do that, but it was incredibly impressive. I mean, the entire time that I'm watching it, I'm like, "Ooh, all right, Seattle, you are young." Um, because the scouting report was on display. She's going left. She's going to look for her shot. uh she's gonna go, you know, try and create for her shot, whether it's that step back, that side step or getting I mean, she had like maybe one mid mid-range shot or so um in that fourth quarter that you saw. And if she's going right, she's playmaking. She's looking to dump it off or she's looking to drive and attack.

[00:04:21]And that's all night long. She did that and she did that really cleanly. Um being able to dunk to Monique Billings, being able to find her teammates, whatever it was. Um she was just really really clean with that. I I will say I gotta give Seattle credit. Um even though this is a team Indiana that did not have Aaliyah Boston, when Kelsey Mitchell comes out and has 17 points in the first quarter, it can deflate you, right? It can make you feel like oof, this is going to be a tough night for a team like Indiana that can get 90 with their eyes closed. And um the and that and the fact that it was 17 points in that first quarter for Kelsey and then already five assists for um Caitlyn Clark in that first quarter I believe too was like this is going to be a long night but they fought back and they did a really great job I think of keeping their composure. Don Milongo was phenomenal in this game. Um missed some tough layups at the end of that one that I know she's probably going to want back but they the way they fought back was amazing. Um it was interesting to see a little bit of little bit of uh kinetic energy between Caitlyn Clark and Faj. Um FJ wasn't having that. I'mma tell you right now. I think it was a foul at the end of the game. I do think that Caitlyn Clark fouled FJ Johnson on her way up. I know a lot of people are like, "Oh, the ball is part of the hand." Personally, I feel like one, Caitlyn's hand was on her back, then she crossed over and hit the wrist. it. From what I saw, I wasn't there, but um doesn't take away from the fact that Caitlyn had a phenomenal fourth quarter. She was cooking, was able to pull that win out. Seattle should be proud of themselves, though, to be able to battle um with a team that can score as well as they can and keep them honest in that fourth quarter. Oh, and also one more thing about Indiana.

[00:06:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Stephanie White has drawn up some killer ATO's at the end of games when Indiana has found themselves in clutch situations.

[00:06:15]>> Yes. But unfortunately for the Fever, like a lot of them just shot didn't go in or the shot did go in like it did against the Washington Mystics and they end up losing in overtime. So to have, you know, finally a performance where like Caitlyn gets the big clutch moment.

[00:06:27]They show off like all of these killer end of game sets. Like it was just a nice moment for the Fever and their fans be like, "Yeah, this has been happening all year, but it's nice to see it all actually work out and end in this really cool moment for everyone."

[00:06:40]>> Yeah. I on that point too is that I love the fact that Caitlyn, it felt like she learned from the game against the Valkyries. There were quite a few times that she was leading the transition and could have pulled up like she did on Wednesday against the Valkyries with no one back, no one available for a rebound and instead of doing that, she would either pull it out or found her teammate. Um, so I thought the decision-m was much better in that regard as well. Um, ultimately great game for the Fever. But the more important thing I think more impressive than anything cuz Seattle is Seattle, right? This is a team that does have six wins on or you know at the time six wins on the season. Indiana goes into a backto back and beats the New York Liberty 1088 and Kelsey Mitchell who just had 30 comes back and has 33. This is insane. I think that is part of what is so scary about Indiana is that on any given night it can be anyone that you know pops for for their back court. All right, let's keep it going because we talked about how Indiana needs to bounce back. That's because they had just played the team that is currently on a nine game win streak.

[00:07:52]This is insane. With that, I'm gonna open up the Sabrina scale. It's back, baby. Every week I love it. It's so much fun. And right now the teams that's at the top and I love the way you put it in your Sabrina scale this week is like because that's there's not much else they can do. They're already at the top.

[00:08:08]They they they're just killing it. It's the Golden State Valkyries. Um they were already at number one. They're continuing this impressive run. Uh they beat the Mystics on Saturday. At the time that we're recording this, they're going to play the Mystics again. Uh it was a closer game on Saturday than it was previously against the Mystics, but you saw the Mystics finally taking advantage of the things that they should have an advantage on the Valkyries for in terms of their ability to score in the paint and have some size, but the Valkyries still took care of business in that regard. So Sabrina, when you look at the Valkys and you assessing them at number one, like what feeds into them continuously impressing you not only on this win streak, but overall this season? defense really just just defense. Yeah. [laughter] Um I keep waiting for their offensive marks to like start to rise and like oh it's like oh you know they're figuring some things out. They're hitting more threes you know they're getting more efficient with potentially Janelle Salon scoring outputs or like maybe Gabby Williams is finding pockets but no no this is not a team that wins because of offense. They score enough >> enough like in that game against Washington they had a couple big threes down the stretch you know to change the momentum of that game. I think they were down by six. They hit two big threes from Gabby Williams. Uh Veronica Burton has another three that uh really just seals the game for them in that fourth quarter, but like their offense is below average. Their offense is not on par with any WNBA championship teams of recent lore. Like usually teams are better on offense than they are on defense. The whole defense wins championship things a lie. It does not exist in the WNBA. Okay, you got to score to win in this league. And the Valkyries are just, you know, upending that entirely because >> they just strangle opponents, right?

[00:09:47]Like you look at the way they play defense and it's it's honestly like kind of beautiful to watch. Like there just no gaps, right? Like you're trying to get into the paint like two people just sort of like converge and like the the opening >> just is gone. Uh if you try to throw over the top like Kia Stokes having an awesome awesome protecting season, leader in the WNBA in block percentage.

[00:10:06]Natalie Niccast obviously very familiar with her from their time in Las Vegas, knew how to use her, knew how to protect, you know, some of the offensive >> deficiencies Kia Stokes might have, but like >> Kurt Miller always used to use this word congestion when talking about the way he wanted to play defense. Like he just wants to congest the paint. Yes.

[00:10:23]>> And that's all I see when I watch the Golden State Valkyries is like everything is congested. Like it's the way you feel when you're playing against them, right? Like it's just it's like >> sticky and like you can't get through.

[00:10:33]And uh that's what it looks like when you're looking at the paint. Um when you're watching the Golden State Valkyries play defense because there's the main defender, there's a couple people sliding in. They don't make mistakes though. Like strongside corner not slipping in, right? Like that [laughter] that person is staying home.

[00:10:46]But everybody else has their eye on the ball. They have their eye on the paint and they just the play on a string thing I think is like sometimes overused, but like it just that's how Golden State plays >> and you know they limit their points in the paint, right? They have incredible block percentage. Everybody on that team I think is like eligible for some sort of all defense award because they're all that good. But yeah, I I keep wanting to think like it's a balanced team, you know, like they're figuring things out on both sides of the ball. No, no, they're just really really good at defense and that's carrying everything that they're doing.

[00:11:14]>> If we can't score, you can't score.

[00:11:17]That's their motto right now and it is showing up in such a big way. And Annie, like when I think about this team, yes, it's second year. They brought back the most amount of players in any other WNBA franchise. Um, so the continuity is there, but >> when I think about what Sabrina's referring to, the congestion, which I loved seeing that work, I I've been trying to find a different way to describe it as their analyst here in the Bay cuz it there it just that's what they do. They clog so well, but more than anything, and you saw this against Washington, you've seen it all season long, but their timing is impeccable >> cuz sometimes you can dig down and dig down too early. You can dig down and stay too late. You can dig down um and you were too high on the dig down. It was, you know, the person in the low spot that should have dug dug down or maybe you were too low and you shouldn't have. Know there's reasons that some teams get beat on the back doors or on the driving kicks because someone dug down at the wrong time or stayed too long or too early and yet somehow they move on this string and that timing leans into chemistry and Gabby Williams recently mentioned about like she feels like it's home for her. She's been playing with this team couple months, right? Like and it's it's just clicked so much. like what has impressed you most about this team's chemistry and their development?

[00:12:43]>> I think it goes back to the culture aspect, right? And that goes all the way up to Joe Lake and this enforcement of the idea that we have to be a championship team within the first 5 years of this franchise's existence. So there's this call to action or this this thing this attainable um you know goal that is setting the precedent for everything that they do.

[00:13:12]And then from there, you talk about, you know, oh making selections and and going after certain types of players in free agency and then Natalie Nass implementing that culture and building this team's identity on defense because that's something that I mean when you really talk about everything you just outlined as far as their defense goes, so much of that is about will and is about commitment to effort, right? it it's not necessarily about intangibles.

[00:13:43]It's about a commitment to to that play style day in and day out. And also, you know, players talk about this a lot, but like if you're um overly aggressive or you commit to a close out or you commit to um you know uh filling the gaps like this, you have to have trust in in your teammates that they're helping on the backside. And so all around top to bottom, this team's identity is is not only so well defined, but it's so bought into top to bottom from every single player on this team. Uh Natalie Nass, the entire organization is bought into this defensive identity. And I think that's why it's it's the top rated defense in the league.

[00:14:34]>> Yeah. And you you mentioned it like and as we transition to the last team I want to talk about commitment to a play style and that requires one a level of accountability. When you have anybody committing to anything it requires a level of accountability but it also requires knowledge of what is the play style? What are we committing to? And that's one thing I could I could say that right now it feels like the New York Liberty are still trying to figure out and it's understandable even though yes they brought back their big three and you know some pieces around it in Leo Febic and Marine Jiannis and Benjelini Hamilton sure people that are familiar what's going on there's some new pieces in the mix of this especially from a head coach perspective with Chris Marco but Serena you look at you know the New York Liberty were one teams that you had trending down in your Sabrina scale. Um, the New York Liberty have become what you have called the anti- Valkyries. At the time of recording this, they've gone just two of eight or two and eight, excuse me, over their last 10. Explain this slide. Why are they going in the wrong direction?

[00:15:43]>> I mean, two and eight with the only two wins over the Aces and the links. And the reason they're the anti- Valkyries is because those are the teams that the Valkers just can't beat. They beat everybody but the >> Exactly. Exactly. Crazy. Uh, so you look at, you know, you've beaten Minnesota, you've beaten Las Vegas, beaten Vegas in the Commissioners Cup final as well. The ceiling is clearly there, right? Like you can beat the best teams in the league and then you're just blowing other games left and right and some of them are not even all that competitive, right? Like they have a double- digit lead in the first half against Indiana and by the time you look up in the third quarter, they're down by 20, right? Um the they've lost to the Valkyries, they've lost uh Portland Fire losses were earlier in the season. you know, they lost to the wings. They've lost just all of these games that they really should have been more competitive in.

[00:16:23]Uh, and sometimes it's not even like the fact that they've lost these games, it's the way they've lost these games, right?

[00:16:28]Just the there was like no life in the New York Liberty at the end of that Indiana Fever game. And that's really what caused them to drop for me is like where is the buyin on this team? Like, do they know what they're doing, why they're doing it, um, and do they believe in the system that they're playing? Because, you know, last year I feel like we constantly had this conversation about New York and like is it is it the injuries? Is it the effort? Like have they tuned out Sandy Brownello and like we sort of gave him a pass because like hey, you know, Stewie missed some games.

[00:16:57]S missed some games. Sean Qu missed some games. Like this team just won a title a year ago. They'll figure it out.

[00:17:02]>> And maybe now like this is just a team that is constantly playing with its food. You know, like we talked about this in the 2024 WNBA Finals as they were winning a title. They were playing with their food, right? like that game four that they gave away in Minnesota.

[00:17:15]>> Um, none of us had any faith that they were going to win that game even though they could clinch a freaking championship that day because that's just sort of the makeup of this team.

[00:17:23]>> And they made all the media go into the media room and frantically find flights to New York [laughter] >> to figure it out. The fans weren't too mad about it. It's fine. It's fine.

[00:17:31]Still vividly remember that. But alas, go ahead.

[00:17:33]>> We You have the same core for the Liberty, right? And you have the same problems. New coach, sure. A lot of new pieces around them. You know, we talked about Paul Ashine and Rea Gardner coming in and Rebecca Allen and all these like new faces that have added little bits and pieces. Satu Sabi, who obviously has missed uh I think eight games as of this recording um with concussion, but like the core of it still kind of remains the same. like they just don't take every regular season game seriously. And that is maybe a problem, you know, like maybe not such a big problem honestly because like eight teams still don't make the playoffs, but like they're kind of hovering in this seven eight region [laughter] of the WMA standings. I'm like there are a lot of teams that missed the playoffs now and a lot of teams that are trying to uh you know propel themselves into that top eight to make the postseason and the Liberty are just sort of acting like it's a birthright you know like they're just going to get there and it'll be fine and they'll turn it on and like do you want to be playing the Golden State Valkyries or the Minnesota Links in the first round of the WB playoffs in three game series. I certainly do not.

[00:18:30]>> So I just look at the Liberty and I don't know what I'm going to get on a regular basis, right? Like some games there's, you know, Rebecca Gardner as the first guard off the bench. And some games they're playing like a bigger three. They, you know, they even started Han Shu and moved Stewie to the three for one of those games last week. I think it was against Toronto.

[00:18:46]>> Toronto.

[00:18:47]>> Um then, you know, you see them against the the Indiana Fever and they have Marine Johannes as the three, but like then they don't bring Rebecca Gardner off the bench and it's like, well, you're telling me that your best perimeter defender on the team is somehow not available for a game when you have to guard Kelsey freaking Mitchell. I don't understand the logic there. So, I just don't know what I'm going to get from them. Anytime I watch them on TV, I know it's going to be underwhelming. That's what I've discovered from the New York Liberty.

[00:19:10]>> And it's just a very, very strange situation.

[00:19:13]>> It It's so true. I mean, that I think that tempo game, especially when you see Sabrina, the last tempo game that they had um that they lost 93 91. Like, you see Sabrina go off, you're seeing like, okay, there's like great there's always great elements to one person's game, but they can't quite put the puzzle pieces together. Annie, like if you're the coaching staff, especially because it does feel like Chris Marco is trying to figure it out. Like he's trying a lot of new stuff, which is understandable, [laughter] but problematic. Like, you have to have some sort of consistency uh in order to build off of. But I understand the idea of wanting to be flexible enough that if you don't like where you started, you can go a different route. I like the big lineup. It didn't result in a win, but it was all right, but are you going to build on this? Aka give them more minutes, give them more opportunities to continue to continue to work on this.

[00:20:07]So, Annie, if you're the coaching staff, or maybe if you've heard from the coaching staff, like what what's the answer here? What are they going to try and do, especially going into the second half of the season after All-Star break?

[00:20:17]>> So, I don't fully agree with the fact that the entire team is playing with its food, Sabrina. Like where I disagree with you on that is Brianna Stewart has been the one consistent throughout this entire season. She needs more from Sabrina Anesco. She needs more from John Quill Jones. That's just a fact. And so I think that aside, the coaching staff, Christa Marco, there's been no consistency as far as what players he's had available, right? And sure, we don't want to use that as too much of an excuse. But from there, I go up to above Chris Demarco and question what's happening above Chris Demarco as far as Jonathan Cole, the GM goes because you have players that Chris is not utilizing. Okay, one in Benigelini Hamilton, who does not look like the same player she looked like in previous years, does not look like the same player coming back from injury. But what we know is there's trade interest in her at the beginning of the season. So if this is someone you're not going to utilize, well, now you're in a situation where you have injuries, your bench is depleted, and you have a player that's getting a DMP for for what? To go back to Sabrina's point of, you know, the choice not to play Rebecca Gardner, certainly questionable to choose to go to developmental players versus again your best perimeter defender. and Rebecca Gardner. That's that's a question. But when it comes to Banija, there doesn't seem like there is a true fit for her on this roster. And there's also a question of whether she truly wants to be in New York. And when you're this depleted, what are what are you doing? So that's where my question goes is beyond Chris is Jonathan is Cole putting the Liberty putting the best does did he give Chris the best roster to utilize and obviously we don't have a clear answer to that because of the injuries but what we know is there are moves that that could be made and they haven't yet and so I think this this is a combination of of many things and sure when it comes to the coaching staff it's about consistency but how can you establish any consistency when your your lineups have been anything but like because of injury you know I I don't know that they can the only place that they can get consistency at now or it seems with Sabrina healthy again is from their big three and they need more from the other two.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's a really good call out. Stewie has absolutely been a gamer um this year and she always is.

[00:23:02]>> She always is. Exactly. I was not just this year, excuse me, but in general. Um but you're right and that's why I feel like the some pieces pop up >> in other games around her, but it's never been able to like come all the way together. I mean, we saw pieces even like the Commissioner Cup >> um I thought was a really great example or even maybe the first time that they met up against the Lyns. Um these were games where I was like, "Okay, yeah."

[00:23:27]Yeah, this is what New York could be.

[00:23:28]This is what they're about, right?

[00:23:30]>> And then it just drops or it's tough.

[00:23:33]>> Even going back to the game against the Fever, that third quarter was the differencemaker. They had a lead. They come back and they look like a shell of themselves. Well, Brianna Stewart had eight points in the third quarter. Only one other player scored, Sabrina, and she had four.

[00:23:47]>> Like, that's not you're that's super tough. You cannot that that's that's not going to work.

[00:23:54]>> Yeah. Yep. I'm with you. All right.

[00:23:56]Well, that's the Sabrina scale for this week. We got still a lot more stuff to talk about and we're going to dive into some more topics in the round the W right after this.

[00:24:10]Okay, now I ain't going to lie to you guys. I am so bummed that our entire BB block is not about the Golden State Valkyries and their nineame win streak.

[00:24:23][laughter] Okay. Um, it's not about Caitlyn Chen injecting herself, forcing herself into this most improved player, six woman of the year conversation. I think she is in both of those categories or should be in both those categories. Um, it is not about a lot of the great things that are happening in the WNBA around the league because it feels like these these some of these conversations are are being around basketball, excuse me, are being swallowed up by some of the more cultural, more um, human I guess I don't even know how to really put it. like these stories that have less to do with the basketball and more to do about how we interpret these players, these coaches, the culture around the league, etc. But we'd be remiss to not mention them and not discuss them because they are important conversations to have as well. So, we are going to talk a little bit about what happened between Toronto and Angel to start. Um, over the weekend, Toronto Tempo coach head coach Sandy Brownello faced intense scrutiny after referring to Angel Ree as a quote unquote protected species during Friday night's game against the Atlanta Dream.

[00:25:36]The comment quickly sparked widespread debate and ultimately led the WNBA to suspend Brondello for one game. Now, before she was suspended, Brondello apologized publicly, saying that the remark was made in the heat of the moment, acknowledging that her words had a broader impact than she intended. Um, she further she had more comments um on Sunday and mentioned that Barello saying, "I have a ton of respect for her. I want to make sure that it she knows that it was an emotional statement." Um, and we can get a little bit deeper into what Angel said in response to all of this, but Sabrina, help me do that. For anyone who is catching up on this story, like, walk us through what happened, the play that caused this, how did this get heard, what led to the league's decision.

[00:26:28]Right. So, it's the fourth quarter of a game between Toronto and at Atlanta and uh Nara Sabi gets called for a defensive foul on Angel Ree and she falls to the floor and the Toronto medical team has to go attend to her while she's on the floor and while this you know attention is happening to Nara on the baseline um you can hear like a mic pick up Sandy Brondello talking to the referees saying you know like come on Angel like she's a protected species and in her in Sy's interpretation she was saying like you know she's protected in the way that she is officiated like she gets a certain leniency with calls because um this is something that I learned after the fact uh in Australian sports terminology >> apparently this is a term that gets used a lot to refer to people who um get a beneficial whistle essentially um you can see it when it's talked about with like Australian rugby and Australian rules football um I even saw it referred to like the Sam Kerr uh who's an Australian soccer star um in a story. So when Sandy says like this is an Australianism that entered her vocabulary, like she's not making that up. That's definitely something that has happened, but it carries different connotations in American language versus Australia. And that is obviously what Angel was picking up on. So, you can understand how a coach in the heat of the moment seeing her player go down um tense fourth quarter game doesn't excuse anything, but like Sandy Brondello being someone who's been in the WNBA for so long. Uh we just talked about earlier this year how you know she holds told this story about Sandy Brondello helping to advocate for her mental health care years and years ago, you know, when she was a player in Sandy, I believe, was an assistant coach or maybe a head coach. I forget exactly the details there, but this is somebody whose, you know, credentials in the WNBA are long established. She has long been regarded as a players coach, right? Like people love her. She was a former player in this league.

[00:28:21]>> And uh the fact that she immediately took accountability like the next morning, posting a public apology, calling the Atlanta Dream, saying like, "Hey, I would love to talk to Angel whenever she would, you know, want to talk to me."

[00:28:33]Like not forcing it, but just saying like, "Hey, you know, I know the Atlanta GM. I know people in their organization.

[00:28:37]I'm going to make myself available should Angel like to talk to me. I think she did all that she could in this situation. Understanding that, hey, I made a mistake. You know, >> I want you to know where I'm coming from, but also this is my fault. Like, my bad. I should have done better. Uh, everything that you could have done in that situation short of just not saying the term to begin with.

[00:28:57]>> Yeah. Yep. And then it's important that after the fact, um, Angel Reese came out and said, and Annie, I believe you wrote a piece about this yesterday, um, breaking all this down. Uh, she came back and said that she appreciated Sandy's apology. No.

[00:29:12]>> Yeah. She said, "First, I appreciate Sandy's apology, but I also appreciate the love and support that I've had over the last 48 hours." And I'm paraphrasing that, but the direct quote is obviously up online. And she also went on to say that she was grateful to the league that they took action, which I think kind of leads to a more nuanced conversation that we have to have around this and the fact that >> two truths >> we we have to be do a better job of holding two truths at one time.

[00:29:48]>> Sandy Brondello's intent is separate of the impact, right? And that is where again we can separate who Sandy is, which again Sandy is not a clown. She is not someone who has a bad reputation in this league. She's a beloved coach beyond just again what she's done in this league from accomplishment standpoint to but to the point you made Sabrina her relationships like and that I think was really evident in the number of of people who came out after the fact and were like listen Sandy made a mistake but she's not a bad person which I think leads into another conversation more nuanced conversation about cancel culture. and how it's taken us to a dangerous place because it's removed the ability for us to have meaningful conversations when mistakes are made.

[00:30:47]And so I think Sandy did a fantastic job of right away taking accountability for something again she didn't intend to have this racial impact. She's again using a phrase that to Sabrina's point is is common in Australian sports, but has a totally different meaning, historical context in America. And she recognized that mistake and addressed it. And that's what I think was was the most important thing here.

[00:31:21]>> Man, you you lean into such an incredibly important part of this, the nuance of all of this and also being able to hold two truths at once. I love the way that you put that. Um, this is an incredibly charged space right now. The WNBA, it's incredibly charged and it requires another level of um, another level of care and another level of vigilance when it comes to choosing your words, especially if you are white in this league right now. And that's just the truth. And in this moment, while Sandy Brondello is heated, she I imagine is thinking about Narabi suffering another injury.

[00:32:11]Says something that Angel found to be offensive. And I'll stop right there first and say it is in in this incredibly charged space. I hate that Angel Ree continues to be in the midst of this. It is so unfair. Like it is so unfair to have these players be caught in the midst of this excess that has nothing to do with their basketball. And it's not just Angel Reese, but she is absolutely since her joining the WNBA has been in the center of this, right?

[00:32:43]Um it it makes me think of some of the comments that were made uh by Adam Silver about, you know, Caitlyn Clark being a political football. I feel like if you call Caitlyn Clark a political football, you could call Angel Reese a racial football, right? She's been kind of thrown around in these conversations.

[00:32:59]And I think that that's what made everyone especially sensitive to what was said by Brandy uh Sandy Brondello, excuse me. I I want to ask you guys um about the suspension because this is a new precedent being set. And I before I ask you guys that question, I'll just say my my thoughts really quickly. Like I've worked in the NFL before um and I'm very I was always aware of the concept of a quote unquote protected species when it comes to quarterbacks. It's been written before about quarterbacks, that they are protected species in the sense of you can't touch them, you can't do anything to them, X, X, Y, and Z. So, this was my first time as a black woman in America who grew up in North Carolina, who has been called the n-word in multiple games, who has been called a monkey, who has had multiple things, experienced a lot of racial lies type of things. This is my first time hearing the term protected species being said in general, but two being said and interpreted as a racial thing. I'd never heard that before. Um, and so this was like I was kind of taken aback by how it was being interpreted. I was like, "Oh, I wouldn't I wouldn't see that as a racial thing. I would see it as you can't do anything with her. You can't touch her. It's like an endangered species." Like there are laws against doing anything around Angel Reese. And that's how I had interpreted it. But as I was reading comments and things of that nature, like a lot of folks were talking about the the idea of a species and aka referring to a human as something less than human or separate of human, a scientific categorization, which then this is a particular unique example because in sports we do this often >> all the time.

[00:34:51]>> We talk about someone being a different breed.

[00:34:55]breed is another scientific kind of you know term to assess someone as you're being you're rare you're you're different but that's usually in a positive connotation right we talk about people being beasts beasts right on the board beasts different like breed beasts these are words that were actually used to describe black people right beasts mongrels like these are things that were used racially in the American South to negatively refer to black people. And so, um, and we know that in scientific terms back then as well that the word species were ways in which white people justified treatment of black people and treatment of them in and health uh and and health circumstances and things of that nature and how they assessed, you know, what pain they could go through or how to assess their athletic ability. All the above. Okay. I say all that to say I was surprised by it. I did not interpret it in that way, but as I see the comments, I'm like, I understand. I I understand that some people were offended. Now, let's get to the suspension because, as you mentioned, Annie Sander Barello immediately apologizes and she does it in the same way that she disrespected publicly. And that's usually always a problem is that disrespect is loud and disrespect is public and then the the apology comes quietly. the apology wants to be behind the scenes and it's like that you can't do that. So, I did have a lot of respect for that and I respected the fact that Angel Reese, you know, accepted that apology as well.

[00:36:32]>> But the suspension was new for me and I'm wondering how you all felt or not even not just felt about it, but one is there precedent for this? So there is a a kind of precedent here in that Kurt Miller, who was the Connecticut zone coach at the time in 2021, was fined $10,000 and suspended one game for language he used about Liz Cambasia's size. And that's obviously very different than what we're speaking of here, which again goes back to that kind of conversation about intent versus impact. Because you make a great point, Zena, and that we use language often to describe players as >> other than human. Um, and in this case, you know, Angel explained that there was offense taken to this, that there was a there was a problem here. And I think it honestly opened up a larger conversation for a lot of people to see that there was a problem with using this this word specifically because I don't think many Americans understand or what I saw in response to this was a lot of people being unaware of of what the problem was here. So anyways, in response to Sy's suspension, I would say this to me seemed like the league taking an aggressive action because of the larger, you know, zoom out 500 ft circumstances surrounding the league. They have been criticized for being on their back foot often for not addressing the harassment, the the language online, the racial slurs online. And that is not at all to lump Sandy into that category, but I think league leadership thought we need to address this immediately before there's any conversation about what is the league doing, is the league going to do anything, etc. And so again, intent versus impact. The impact is what, you know, gave way to the suspension in in my opinion.

[00:38:48]>> Yeah. And you think about all these situations where the league hasn't been able to protect its players, right? Like the Chelsea Gray situation and >> you know all of the online harassment directed towards Dana Bonner and Alyssa Thomas. And I think the WNBA just saw an opportunity to have the back of one of its players, right? like it's a lot easier to identify who was wrong in this situation with Sandy Rond Delo and they have the wherewithal to levy a punishment at Santi like in a way that they can't to every online actor who is you know harassing one of their players.

[00:39:18]So, I think it was more an example of like, okay, we can get behind our player. We can show Angel Ree that we have her back, especially in this very, very charged climate that we've been talking about. And like Annie said, you know, Kurt Miller was suspended for derogatory comments about a player. And I think this is a similar situation, right? Sandy Brandello made derogatory comments about a player. Yeah. Did she intend them to be derogatory? Like, that's again intent versus impact, right? Angel felt harmed by those comments. And so, >> right, >> Sandy did something wrong. The league had the opportunity to create a punishment and it did.

[00:39:53]>> Yeah. I think too this is where the standard is set now, right? That's the question I have about this the suspension is like, okay, we we've seen this now. Are you going to be able to do it moving forward? But I think the points to the fact that this is someone that they can directly assess and be able to punish versus, you know, what happened with Chelsea Gray and this obscure person coming into our DMs and using racialized language. Um, they can't go find that person and suspend them because they're just a random human.

[00:40:26]>> The WNBA fans did cause them to lose their jobs. That was something.

[00:40:29]>> That was something noteworthy. Yeah, >> I gotta give a little applause for that.

[00:40:32]Shout out to them. But, um, I still feel like you do this, but you have to wait until Las Vegas sends out a press release around what happened to Chelsea Gray for then the league to say, "Yeah, we're with you."

[00:40:49]Like, no, no, you lead the way, right?

[00:40:52]Like, and so that's why I'm like these type of reactions I'm kind of like, I don't know what to expect. Like, you know, appreciate the apology and accept the apology. The suspension has occurred. Angel was pleased with that outcome as well. So, she feels supported by the WNBA. The WNBA, a lot of fans feel supported in that way. There's a lot of fans that feel also that this suspension was um harsh and that maybe a fine would have been more appropriate in this situation. I'm happy you guys brought up the Kurt Miller example. I think that that's a um a good like you know comparison or metric to compare to.

[00:41:24]But this is going to be very interesting to see what happens moving forward. Now, on this note, let's shift to another topic that has happened. um around the league office because NBA Commissioner Adam Silver recently weighed in on WNBA commissioner Kathy Angelberg and Annie, you wrote about this that Adam, you know, praised Kathy for the job that she's done growing the league, but when asked about her future kept mom, right? He didn't say much. Um did not commit to whether she's going to stay on or not. And he also declined to address some of the reports that he had been involved in another suspension, a WNBA disciplinary decision resulting in the suspension of Alyssa Thomas after her flagrant foul on Caitlyn Clark, saying that it wouldn't be fair to Kathy or the players involved. There was more that he said and I want to ask what you think that we should make or how you interpreted his comments. um what people who are listening could make of his comments and were they pretty like standard for who Adam Silver is or was this like a hm interesting for you?

[00:42:29]So my experience with Adam Silver is that he's a very direct person and he oftent times is very extensive in his responses. What I was or took note of, I should say, is the fact that he did not deny the report from the Sports Business Journal that he interfered with Kathy or the league's decision to suspend Alyssa Thomas one game because again, my experience with Adam, if there's something he wants to clear up, he clears it up. He clears it up. if there's an inaccuracy, if there's something that is wrong out there about him, about the NBA, he he stands on it.

[00:43:21]And so when he chose not to say that's not true, I did not do that out of respect or protection for Kathy and Caitlyn, I believe were his words. I was like, okay, so he did that. He did get involved. And I think that speaks to a larger conversation which we've had here. I mean, we've been saying Kathy is operating as commissioner of the WNBA, but she's ultimately stuck in a box that Adam Silver is constantly checking on.

[00:43:59]She, you know, is is under serves under him. And I think there are ways in which her wings are clipped in a certain way.

[00:44:10]And I wonder if because of that she has checked out. She has taken a step back in certain ways where people are like, why isn't she doing more? Why isn't she more forward- facing? Why? Why? Why?

[00:44:24]Why? Why? Well, that's a whole area of this conversation that is really unclear exactly how much oversight Adam has and exactly how much influence he has on her specific role. And the other thing that I'll say about this is the the scope the microscope on the WNBA is only growing bigger and bigger with each passing year. And because of that, it's exposing where the league has inefficiencies, where the league is imp unprepared, where the league maybe needs to deploy more resources. And I think these late responses, these no responses in the past are are not a reflection of the league not caring or not thinking it should do something, but the fact that there are are literally they're they're learning as they go. They're they're figuring it out as they go where >> to deploy who, what, where, when. And that's a problem. Like that's a problem.

[00:45:32]This this should have the these holes should not be there and because the microscope is as big as it is the holes are getting exposed quite frequently.

[00:45:45]>> Yeah, Serena, this is such an interesting aspect of it of we now have questions about where Kathy's leadership ends and where Adam's begins, right? And I think about this Angel and Sandy situation and the suspension and it's kind of like did Kathy have Angel's back? Who was involved in this decision?

[00:46:11]Right? And these type that the comments from Adam Silver if anything now makes me look at that situation differently and the fact that he was the one that came in um and deployed the suspension for Alyssa. It's like how does this how does this work?

[00:46:29]who's making these type of decisions and how much is Kathy's word um how much is Cathy's word taken in those type of decisions? You've covered obviously the WNBA for a while. This is the most that Adams felt like he's a part of the conversation to me, but what do you think about that?

[00:46:47]>> Yeah, I mean we've always known that Kathy Angelberg reports to Adam Silver.

[00:46:50]He specifically hired her for the job in 2019. Uh the delineation of those roles has always been a little unclear, right?

[00:46:58]because of the ownership structure of the WNBA where it's owned 42% by the W, 42% by the NBA, and then 16% by that capital raise. Um, so yeah, I think the fact that we don't know which calls Adam makes, we don't know which ones Kathy makes, like that's always been a part of the the stew. It's just now they're being a little bit more public about, you know, where, you know, about that decision-m process. But >> I just don't want like to get overlooked that this is a very big week for Kathy, right? like right >> um Annie wrote about this last week.

[00:47:28]>> You're listening to this on Tuesday.

[00:47:30]There is a meeting between Players Union representatives and Kathy Angleber, members of the league leadership about the online harassment issue, right? Like um this was scheduled even before uh what happened I believe with Chelsea Gray. It was in response to the Alysa Thomas and Dana Bonner incident. Um you know the Angel thing doesn't fall under online harassment but it is under the general umbrella umbrella of harassment that WNBA players face. So, that's something that Kathy is going to have to preside over. And then she has All-Star weekend being hosted, right, where she will have to speak, which she has not done in a very long time. Not since the WNBA draft, I believe. And a lot of things have happened in the WNBA, since the draft. Um, so she has to speak and she also has to, you know, host a weekend in Chicago where like there's kind of a spotlight on an ownership group that hasn't really fulfilled its end of the bargain in terms of leveling up the WNBA to the new standard that they're trying to achieve in this new CBA. So there's a lot that she has to answer for right now. And the fact that it comes a week after her boss saying like we'll talk about her future later instead of just saying hey she's doing a great job as for matters of her future like that's between me and Kathy or like you know something else as opposed to like we'll talk about it later. There's so many nicer ways that Adam Silver could have phrased that other than just like kind of hanging her out to dry again before a very very big week for the commissioner. I have no idea what's about to happen now. And I can't imagine what that feels like for Kathy. I mean, obviously, Adam is not her parent, but it is her boss, and he has influence over her future. And you want to feel confident going into a space in which you are going to be a face of the WNBA, welcoming everyone in into another massive uh WNBA All-Star weekend. This is going to be bigger than it's ever been again. Um, and it it does feel really uncomfortable. And to all your points of, you know, to kind of close this out as we go close this conversation up, what is happening between the players and commissioner and figuring out how to protect each other and and you know, or excuse me, the league figuring out how to protect its players as they're just trying to do their jobs. That is is going to be very interesting for us on the outside to watch and interpret and assess. But people on the outside, people who are listening to the show, like you're also a part of this, okay?

[00:49:47]Like you guys are a part of this. And I was really flabbergasted, shocked to see the way people were talking to each other about this Angel Reese situation online. Like as you mentioned earlier, Annie, like the lack of there was a there was a lack of understanding on both sides. uh like there was a lack of you you don't trying to assess and trying to tell people how to assess the situation, how to assess the suspension, how to assess all that like it was really really toxic um communications and even when people were trying to explain you know why they felt felt offense to this people were going down their throats and being saying that you're sensitive you're this that whatever and when people are trying to this is something that we say all the time in soccer and this is not Sy's you know intent people are going down their throats I mean I saw Timmy Fed been like be called a colonizer and all these terrible words after she tried to defend her coach. Um, >> it was it was really sad to see like really tough. So, I if anything like I really do hope this conversation with the players and the the commissioner ends up being positive in some way, but it ultimately is going to come down to some things that they can't control too.

[00:50:57]>> Right.

[00:50:57]>> Right. And that's what's so hard is like they can put in all the protections in general, but that doesn't necessarily stop the people that are doing it from doing it. And the people that are really angry online and they are Oh gosh, it's it's just been tough. Any any thoughts on that to close it out?

[00:51:14]Yeah, ignorance is is like we can't right we can't control the rampant ignorance that seems to be overtaking online discourse on a daily basis because my question to all of that is why are you trying to explain to somebody why they should not be offended by something? Again, this is this is >> people trying to determine what should or should not be offensive to someone who's explaining where the offense comes from is is mindboggling to me. And I think I do want to give some benefit of the doubt in the sense of where some confusion seems to come in is is what we touched on earlier in that we use language all the time to describe athletes as being superhuman. And so where is that line right? And that is a nuanced conversation which is how we started this one of like the need to have more nuance conversation where we are not going to have nuance conversation is online and I think that's what needs to be accepted a little bit more is you are not going to convince Bob the Builder XO4590 that this that or the other. You're just not. Yeah.

[00:52:36]>> And it it's exhausting.

[00:52:41]>> Sabrina, you're with that? I heard you laugh a little bit.

[00:52:43]>> That's a good place to put a button on it. [laughter] >> Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Well, we try to have as much nuance in this conversation. I hope I I would imagine the players and the commissioner are definitely going to go into that conversation uh during All-Star weekend with positive intention in the hopes they can figure something out. I, for one, can't wait to see what happens. And it better not be no space for hate. It better not be that campaign. We need more than that. Okay? It better be something better. All right, y'all. On the other side of this, we going to do a little game. We haven't played in a while. Come right back.

[00:53:20][music] Okay y'all, it is time to play two takes in a fake WNBA All-Star edition. I have three predictions. and Annie, Sabrina, you two are going to have to decide which two do you believe I actually think, which ones are legit, and which one is completely made up. Okay, you guys ready? Mhm. Okay, my first take.

[00:53:50]I believe that the Stud Buds Twitch stream this year will not be as good as it was last year. In fact, it will be considerably worse than what we saw last year. That's take one.

[00:54:07]>> Okay.

[00:54:07]>> Okay.

[00:54:10]Take two.

[00:54:12]I believe that the WNBA Allstar Games MVP will be Olivia Miles.

[00:54:23]Okay.

[00:54:25]And then take three.

[00:54:29]I believe I believe >> God is already this one.

[00:54:38]>> What do you mean? I didn't say anything.

[00:54:41]>> Sorry.

[00:54:41]>> I didn't say anything. No, you're fine.

[00:54:43]You're fine. Um, I believe that splitting Caitlyn Clark and Paige Beckers was the best part of the new with like through the coin flip was the best part of the new elements of the All-Star weekend or the best outcome of the new elements.

[00:55:04]>> What are the new elements like the GMs or >> the GMs being the Yeah. But yeah, >> this is hard because these are all very believable takes from you. Like I was expecting one of them to be just egregious like and be like, "Oh my god, Zena didn't think that."

[00:55:21]>> The last one doesn't really feel like a Zena take to me. Like it's just so blah.

[00:55:26][gasps] You know >> what do you mean? Zena takes are very like fun and uh usually not Caitlyn Paige related. [laughter] The only reason I was going to say the last one is because of your reaction before you read it. So, it was just like a little human tick where I'm like, "Oh, is she laughing?" Because she she this is already the one that she's uncomfortable with.

[00:55:48]>> I don't think it's the first one. And I think >> I think we're very pro Studbuds on this podcast, but their 2025 stream was iconic, right? Like there's no way it's going to be as good this year. It just can't be. Especially with all like the the hype and the fact that they're no longer teammates and probably I I don't think there's a lot of planning that goes into it. Frankly, that's part of the magic. But like um you know, NECA having to like wake them up for a CBA meeting. Like that's not going to happen this year. Um I don't know. I just >> Yeah, I'm going to go with the last one because I think that you maybe wanted to see Caitlyn and Paige together.

[00:56:25]>> Damn it.

[00:56:25]>> The one I Yeah, that is Sorry. That is it. That is actually it. I think it sucks that they were separated. I wanted to see what they look like together because we had fun watching Angel and Caitlin last year.

[00:56:36]>> Um I was a little too uh by the MVP being Olivia Miles just cuz I know you're like a big at heart and like you picking a little to win MVP is probably a little that's where I >> you know buzz but we love Miles like very pro Olivia Miles podcast.

[00:56:53][laughter] So >> yes. Yeah. No, my my last take is a fake. I do think um I just fear for the subbuzz situation even though Natasha Cloud said that she's going to be the one behind the camera again this year.

[00:57:07]Um it's I think it's going to be too produced. And now that people know it exists, I feel like people are going to be on their best behavior. And that was the best part about the fact that it was just so >> uninhibited last year that Kathy dancing on this year's >> right. She's the she's now going to be on the lookout, right? Like there's just everybody's going to have to guard up a little bit and they're going to see like I mean Courtney Williams not knowing where Diplo was last year was >> Yeah. There's going to be so much. Yeah.

[00:57:35]So I just feel like it's going to be a little too produced and I just don't I don't want that. I hope not. Prove me wrong. Tell me I'm wrong. Please.

[00:57:41]Please. But yeah. So definitely not. I I agree with number one. Um two, I think Olivia Miles could do it.

[00:57:48]>> I do too.

[00:57:49]>> I think she could absolutely be MVP. She could be so much fun. You talk about a game that is made for a player like her.

[00:57:56]>> Truly, >> right? Like the We're going to see some crazy passes. We're going to see it's just going to be too much fun. So, I'm definitely I'm cheering for that. Um and then yeah, the last one I'm like, this is a lot of people. The reason I brought that one up is because a lot of people were very much for Caitlyn versus Paige, Caitlyn versus Paige, like this is going to be fun, whatever. I'm like, no, this would have been more fun to see what they look like together. You know why?

[00:58:21]There is a thing called Team USA, right?

[00:58:24]We want to see what that's going to look like. We want the preview. So, I'm actually bummed that this coin flip actually separated them. Um, and >> I don't think it was the coin flip. I think it uh they just always make it two top vote getters among the fans like the captains.

[00:58:38]>> Did they separate them?

[00:58:40]>> Yeah. So, like in previous years it's been Asia and Stewie, right? Last year it was Caitlyn and Nisa. So, I think it's probably pretty likely so long as they keep this format that the two top vote getters are going to be the leaders of their teams. Like Caitlyn and Paige are going to be the two top vote getters or could be the two top voters for a lot of years.

[00:58:55]>> Yeah. Well, bummer. That'll be I would have loved to see that. That would >> you know, someone a new rookie is going to come in and start taking a lot of votes and all of a sudden they will no longer be the top two and then you'll have them on same tape.

[00:59:07]>> We'll see. We'll see. All right. That was fun. And Annie, yeah, you're right.

[00:59:11]It was definitely a take because I was like, "Oh, do I WANT TO SAY IT?"

[00:59:14]>> OH, I was like I was I was waiting for it. I'm like, I feel like she's gonna do something that's gonna give away her take.

[00:59:20]>> I'm gonna be better next time, guys. I know. I'm sorry. I'll be better next time. All right, that's all for today.

[00:59:26]Um, appreciate you guys playing the game with me. Appreciate everyone being a part of this conversation. very much interested to hear what you guys think about this very crazy season that it's been for all the headlines that have been going on, but like also what are your favorite basketball things that you want to talk about as well because there's so much going on around the league and a lot of new names, new teams, all the above every day doing something different. So excited to keep covering it here at no offseason. So make sure you're subscribed wherever you are listening. Make sure you get that newsletter that drops every Tuesday cuz it also gives you a nice little round up there and follow our show on YouTube.

[01:00:01]Subscribe people. We look better in person. Okay. On behalf of the athletic truthteller Annie Costable and hoopant Sabrina Merchant, I'm Zena Kada thanking you for listening and we'll [music] see you next time. No offseason is hosted by Zena Kada, the Chantel Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, Lasia Clarendon, and Annie Costable. It's produced by Tena Burrell.

[01:00:20]Our executive producer is Andrea B.

[01:00:22]Scott. Monica Compton is our video editor. Our theme music is by Marcus Baggala. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at The Athletic.

[01:00:30]Be sure to like and subscribe. We drop new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.