The program effectively translates complex sociological distinctions into a clear, rational framework that challenges traditional biological essentialism. It serves as a necessary bridge between academic theory and public understanding of the transgender experience.
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Gender Identity is REAL! Disagree? Call Josie Caballero & Riverboat Jack | Trans-Atlantic 05.21.26Añadido:
Hello, hello, hello everyone. It is a transatlantic call-in show here on the line. You are live here with Josie and Jack. Um, how are you doing, Jack? How are you doing today?
>> I'm doing I'm doing great. Uh, I've been I've been kind of going through a bit of a work gauntlet lately. So, I've been I've been doing a lot of uh a lot of streaming, a lot of content creating, and a lot of IRL stuff. So, I've just kind of been sprinting since Monday, and uh you know, I'm I'm ready to keep on sprinting through some wonderful.
>> How about yourself?
>> I I I'm I'm doing well. Um, you know, it's been a I think I I don't even think I did a show last month. It it's been it's been a minute since I've been here.
um because I am in the heat of the campaign as we have just a little over 30 days from June 23rd which is election day for me as I am running for county council at large here in McGomery County and things are so close like it's so close um I mean I it is it is a it's a sleepy race but it's a race that we are feeling very good about so um yeah so if if all of you are here and you want to support the campaign, you can always donate to our campaign. And I'll pull up the the link. I haven't got it up yet, but I'll I'll pull it up. And uh on the line, which is super great, we've raised over $8,000 just from the audience on the line. So, we're almost at 10. I want to get to 10. Um which I think would be super great because then I can say, "Yeah, this is a national campaign even though it's at a local level." So, so yeah, >> that's so exciting.
>> Yeah, I know. I know. It's it's it is wild, but I don't get a lot of sleep and I'm I'm overworked, but it's it's all good. It's all for a good cause. Um great. So, um let's get into um I guess last week's poll that we had.
>> Um are tanning beds safer than puberty blockers for minors? Uh this is a good one. Um 79 uh says no, 6% says yes, and 15% says I'm mad. There is not a third option. Um yes. Uh no, this is this is actually scientifically correct. Tanning beds are not safer than puberty blockers. Um there is an FDA warning on tanning beds that they has a very high likelihood of causing you skin cancer while puberty blockers are fully reversible. and um also help uh alleviate gender dysphoria for for trans youth, which is a good thing.
>> It's a win.
>> It is a win. It is a win. Do you have any things to add? Yeah, go ahead.
>> I mean, my only thing to add is one, I would absolutely have voted as being mad that there's not a third option. And number two, um I I am I am recalling Tucker Carlson did like a documentary about like ball tanning >> and and or or like red light.
>> It's like red light >> applied to the the genitals. it it I I don't know why that came up here, but like for a guy who's very against like, you know, trans people existing in general, that dude that dude I I I've been thinking about Tucker Carlson a lot. He's on my >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
>> I know it's unfortunate.
>> That that that sounds like an affliction. Um >> curse to cover politics.
>> Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean he is slowly slipping into madness though. Um like demons are attacking him and you know all all those did like an interview with a guy who was talking about how like basically anyone on the left is actually like possessed by a demon >> and like it unironically he's pushing that stuff constantly.
>> Yeah. That's just that's just ab absolutely bonkers that that he is pushing this stuff and you know and we're supposed to take them seriously.
I'm just like I don't know about that. I don't know. It's just like it's just Yeah. And the fact that he's actually considered a possible presidential contender is is absolutely just like are you kidding me? like our world is slowly slipping into the darkest regions of the of of all apocalyptic novels. Um but yeah, so let's go ahead and preview today's poll and then we'll take our first call. Um do you think the House reps uh care about parents in HB 2616 or is cruelty of outing trans kids the point? And uh this uh bill is essentially to force out uh trans uh kids in education settings. Um and it did pass the the house. Um and so did it pass the house? I'm not sure. I think it may or may not. Yeah, it did. Um so so yeah, it is going to be um an absolute mess. I mean, here in McGomery County, Maryland, um they just um were sued by a legal organization that was co-founded by um Steven Miller and it was suing the schools to say that they are not force outing kids. So, McGomery County Public Schools decided that, oh, we'll go ahead and change the policy without any legal action to if a parent requests the gender identity of their kids that they have are forced to tell those parents.
So, completely violating the trust and privacy of the students. And you know, I always say this too is like most people can recall a teacher that was important in their lives that they could talk to about, you know, things. It didn't matter what those things were, but that was a safe place that was outside of the home. And and the idea that we are taking that environment away from students to be able to trust their educators is a very very scary prospect of what we are bringing um to our country. It's just another notch that hurts our education system. But um it's it's uh really really upsetting. Do you have any any any thoughts? I mean, I it's one of those things where I it's truly horrific. Like, the the effects of this can't really be sufficiently summed up. Um because Republicans just don't care about suffering. And to the extent that they do care, it's because, you know, outrage that is justified by the heinousness of their actions is viewed as a political win for them. You know, like they they they don't really care about whether or not suffering actually happens. They just care that people are going to be outraged by it because they they get their fuel off of that. And like the trans people, we we keep being downstream of all of these these decisions that they keep making and it sucks, you know? It it sucks. and the kind of mentality that they're mainstreaming with this type of hateful rhetoric, hateful legislating.
Um, it it is directly leading to the radicalization of like teenagers and and young people. Um, and I I mean I I read some of the uh San Diego uh shooter manifesto and and a lot a not a not insignificant amount of it is rhetoric that is right at home with the kind of you know rank and file transphobes that you know tend to uh call into our show to try and tell us that we're not human.
you know, it's it is very much related to that death cult mentality that spurs people to just take violent action. And um I have no doubt that folks along those lines are going to feel more emboldened to do uh more awful [ __ ] And it breaks my heart. Yeah. Um Yeah. So it it is it is a complete um complete disaster.
And so, so yeah, it is it is it is absolutely heartbreaking. Um, and you know, I lived in San Diego for quite some time and I've been to that uh Islamic Center quite often um for many events, community events and it is terrific um to know that you know that this is this is what's been this is how how the world is seeping into madness and it is it is uh we have to hold the line. We have to hold the line. Um but yeah, so um make sure that if you're watching, please call in. Um the phone number is 7206192288 and you can also um believe if you're out of the country, use uh the web caller uh to call into the show. Um we want to talk to you. Um, as you know, if you're sitting there thinking, oh, uh, schools should force out trans kids to their parents, um, or queer kids in general, call us. Uh, talk to us about it. Let us know, um, how how you feel, um, about those type of things. So, it looks like we do have a call. Ellie, uh, she, her from California.
Um, see Ellie, you are live on the line with Jack and Josie. Um, how are you?
>> Oh, my apologies. It's muted. Uh, >> sorry, Ellie.
>> Sorry, Ellie. Let's try that again.
>> Yeah, good to hear from you, Jack and Josie.
>> There we go. Hello.
>> Right. So, um, uh, I don't know if the call screener got the the general information to you yet, but I was calling because I hadn't seen that many people talking about this, but the new ATF rulings that are set to go into effect by the end of the summer has a particular rule that I think might be really concerning to trans people generally. Basically, the law states that or the the ruling states that you have to put your biological sex on the 4473 forms, which for anyone who isn't aware, those are forms that you have to fill out for your background check anytime that you purchase a firearm. And my concern is how they're going to use that as a way of essentially de facto stripping trans people of their Second Amendment rights. And I kind of wanted to get your perspective on how feasible that could be if it's even going to be like something that doesn't get challenged in courts or something.
>> Yeah. So, are you So, when you're talking about, you know, trying to legally purchase a firearm, um I'm guessing they take a copy of your ID as well, right? Is that is that where the issue is where your ID may conflict with the biological sex or the sex assigned at birth to be more accurate on the form? Is that what your concern is?
>> Pretty much. Yeah. Like because I I mean I I I am I have purchased those before and I have had to basically present my driver's license as a form of ID and I I can kind of just see like a dark future where essentially I hand over my like legal California ID that states accurately what my like you know like you know stated sex would be and basically handing that over and then immediately getting flagged as either like we're just going to block you from purchasing this because the stuff is inaccurate or worst case scenario They basically say, "Oh, you're engaging in fraud, so now we have to go in and take you in for that."
>> That's interesting. I mean, I wouldn't put it past any of the regulations that we have happening across the the country. Um, and considering that it is not a state, it's But isn't it typically a state license or is it a federal form?
I'm not too familiar with purchasing a firearm.
I was only issued them when I was in the military.
>> So, the way that it the way that it generally works, the 4493 that is sent to I think it's the FBI or some uh agency that's federally like regulated to basically just do an entire nationwide search like okay, is this person, you know, has this person committed a felony or whatever? Have they lied about like their background check information? Things like that. And so my fear is like basically yeah it's like that federal jurisdiction would clash with the local state jurisdiction basically saying that like you know I am not who I say I am despite the fact that like legally speaking in California I am legally a woman.
>> Yeah it's tough. I mean, it it's one of those situations where, you know, anybody who is afforded the right to to purchase a firearm, no m everybody should have that right. Um, and regardless of their sex or gender, um, or, you know, religious affiliation, race, all of those things. So, when you talk about like citizen rights, you should be able to be given them across the board.
um without any weird um you know exceptions um to who we are. Uh I I do worry personally about how many different registries like we're going to be put on as trans people with different states collecting medical records, different states choosing or seeing how many people change their birth certificates for example or or or you know changing their driver's license passports and things like that. It's just, I think, another thing on the pile that is just another way to try to find the contradictions of our gender um identity and trying to put us on a list somewhere. Um, I don't want to like fearmonger, but it is something that we should all be vigilant on. Jack, do you have any thoughts? Yeah, I'm not uh terribly concerned about the idea of like this is going to be used to deny trans people guns or or take guns away from trans people. Uh but I do share the fear that it would be used and like cross referenced in some way across databases to like create like some kind of government list that could be used for various nefarious purposes. Um, but what exactly those purposes might be at this juncture, I I don't know. and without like having kind of a clearer view or a clearer mechanism of like how and why they would use this and how it would be palatable to folks cuz I know like the NRA for example has already I I believe put out a statement uh condemning like this kind of thing and >> I I don't think this is going to go over well even with like constituents um for the GOP. So like I I I agree that it's bad and I agree that like it could be used down the road for something terrible, but there are also like a million other ways for the federal government to get similar data. And >> yeah, >> I I guess I I guess like I I I Yes, it's discriminatory and yes, it's awful. Uh at the same time, I I'm I'm not entirely sure what the end game would be or how it would work. So until then, I I'm I'm going to be like, well, this sucks, but maybe maybe we're still going to be okay here. I that's kind of my initial knee-jerk response.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And it's like I don't know. I guess the main motivating reason why I kind of wanted to talk to to you folks about this is mostly that I just haven't seen anybody outside of like two like very somewhat prominent like you know trans firearm content creators like actually talk about this. you know, like there's that, you know, tactical girlfriend put out, I think, an article basically talking about, you know, the potential challenges this could put out.
And then, uh, person on Twitter, um, who runs this, uh, a program called Armed the Dolls, which is just like basically legal guidelines for trans people across the United States to, um, you know, navigate their, you know, legal system in, you know, getting armed essentially.
Um, it just kind of seems odd that like for such a sweeping and potentially alarming change, it just it seems wild that it's like it feels like nobody's talking about this.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It, you know, unfortunately, I feel like it's it's kind of the case that like not enough people talk about trans issues in general outside of like trans circles and then like we we get a little bit further niche with like firearm >> uh firearm content. Um it doesn't surprise me that um the folks you mentioned are talking about it and more people should be talking about it frankly. Um.
>> Mhm.
>> But it it is like I I think like a lot of people are are a lot of trans folks that I know anyway are have been more concerned with like ICE at TSA and like traveling and like freedom of of motion throughout the country and the focus hasn't quite been on freedom of uh to to hold arms, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely feel that.
Like I'm very I'm very content to only travel overland and really do anything to avoid going into an airport these days.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I suppose that's really kind of all I wanted to kind of talk about. Um >> yeah, thank you. Thank you for bringing up the the the topic. I I do think it's important. Um >> I agree.
>> I agree.
>> Thank you for shedding some light on it.
>> Yeah. appreciate you. All >> I guess the last thing if if people wanted to kind of like dig a little more into this and possibly voice their concerns, they are actually hosting a public um comment um period where people are able to submit complaints about particular rulings like generally for the whole batch. And there's already been a call out um from those same content creators who basically voice their concerns on like you know is this basically a soft ban on trans people?
How are you even going to enforce this?
like what mechanisms are going to be used to verify people's biological sex like that is an option that people can do and I believe that hearing is going to take place between the next two months before they go into effect in I think August.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.
We'll we'll keep an eye on it.
>> Yeah. Thanks for the information to your show.
>> Yeah. And you hope you have a great rest of your day. All right. Talk to you later. Bye >> bye.
>> All right. Bye bye.
All right. Um before we take our next call, let's look at how the poll results are shaking out. Yeah, with the uh chat. All right. I don't see um what the what the chat uh decided. Um but again, the question is, do you think the house reps care about parents in HB6 2616 or is cruelty of adding trans kids the point? horizontal chat said 98% cruelty is the point. 2% said care about the parents and that's with 166 votes.
And on the vertical with 79 votes, 92% said cruelty is the point and 8% said they care about parents.
>> Okay, awesome. Well, that that makes that makes sense.
>> I mean, it's obvious that they don't care about the parents, right? Like none no GOP policy is actually helping parents right now.
>> Right. Right. And if you are part of those small percentages that think this is about the parents, uh please feel free to call in. Um we are here the chat and um we are that's why we do this show so we can we can um have these conversations um to to folks that may not normally have these abilities to have the conversations with an actual trans person. Um, so before we take on the next call, I want to say um at the end of the show we will be reading super chats. So, uh, we read super chats of $5 or more. And we always have a friendly competition at the end of the show where whoever gets the, um, most um, #team jack or #team josies um, will get to watch the loser defend an absurd point.
We will be putting up the poll on that absurd point later in the show. Um, and also make sure you subscribe and like.
Uh, we are really becoming a huge network here on the line and your subscriptions and likes will help get the algorithm out there so we can have more of these great conversations um that we have. I mean, these conversations come from all over the world. Um, so so make sure that we keep this show going. Also, you can join the Patreon um and do that as well where you get exclusive content um where hosts get to do different questions. We do different like little like little speeches and little webinar type things as well. And there's a lot of there's a lot of cool content. So, so make sure you join. Be cool and be a part of the Patreon. That would be great. Um so, the next caller is Connie. She they 26 from um Minnesota.
You are live on the line with Jack and Josie. Um you have a question for me. So yeah, what is it?
>> Hi Josie. Hey Jack. I love your shows both, but um Josie, I know you're running for office. Um and I'm thinking about running for local office in my town as a city councelor. I'm just wondering like are there like any like anything campaignwise or uh like policy or like adversarial that I should be like aware of if I do decide to run for local office?
>> Yeah. So, um I I I have the pleasure of training uh trans candidates nationwide.
I do uh training with the uh Victory Institute where um we have an annual training with uh trans people. I also do coaching um on my personal day job um as well at advocates for uh trans equality.
So, if you want to uh sign up the interest form, I'm currently on sobatical for another month, but um you can also sign up there and you can get like one-on-one coaching and training on these type of topics. But the one thing that I I can share, you know, the first thing that I get a lot is um and that I like to share a lot anyway is you got to know your why. why you're doing this is the most important thing. Um, and that why can be a lot of things. You want to make housing more affordable. You want to make sure that people have access to health care or, you know, or it could be like I want clean water in my town, right? Those those type of things are things that help drive you to do something that is bigger than yourself.
I always like to think about the fact of um I use the example of the Hunger Games when Katniss, you know, volunteers as tribute. She didn't just volunteer as tribute because she wanted to play in the Hunger Games. She volunteered as tribute because she wanted to protect her sister. The why was bigger than her own well-being because she wanted to give that protection. And when you're a trans candidate, you're kind of putting yourself on the on the microscope to get attacked from all types of weirdos online or you know the media that will try to either trivialize your your run or or or just be like, "Oh, isn't this type isn't this cute that this person is running?" Um, and you got to be able to have that thick skin. And the thick skin comes from doing something bigger than yourself. I tell all of the trans candidates that I work with that we don't run because we're trans to make history. That's just a cool fact about our runs. It's not the reason why we run. Um because no matter what you do, when you announce for office, they they're going to talk about you being a trans person when when when you announce. That's that's how it is. The headline is either going to be trans person wants to be the first or or LGBTQ uh advocate wants to, you know, run for office. And that's what they will do.
That's what the media will do. That's what your opponents will do. And you just got to kind of be ready for that.
So, you got to be ready with a good reason why, right? A dear friend of mine, Danica Rome, who's a senator in the Commonwealth of Virginia, you know, she wasn't running because she was trans. She was running because she wanted to fix Route 28, which was a a terrible road in Virginia. And she ran on that. And people were like, "Oh," when people at the door would be like, "Hey, aren't you that trans person?"
She's like, "Yes, and I'm trying to fix Route 28." Right. And or Route 28. And and so that was enough for people to be like, "Oh, okay. You're actually trying to help the community. You just happen to be trans." So, so that's kind of what I say to firsttime candidates, um, or trans candidates in general. Um, it's not about screaming you are trans. It's about screaming you are human, right?
Because trans people are part of every part of our lives, right? We're we are parents, we're siblings, we're, you know, postal workers, we're nurses, we're leaders, we're political leaders, we we are all parts of every facet of life. And when you put your name on the ballot, that's the first time somebody will even consider electing a trans person into leadership in their lives.
And that is powerful. That is visibility. And how you show up in your community is something that you are, you know, privileged to be able to do when you run for office. Um, and and I'll I'll say this as my last point. Um, as trans people, we have to suffer a lot. Like we were just talking on the last caller just now about the possibility of getting your name put on a list because you purchased the firearm legally or we were talking about different things that we have to suffer through, losing the access to gender affirming care, um, experiencing unemployment, experiencing homelessness, like all of these things that trans people already have to have the burden.
But to run for office is also a special type of suffering that you're putting yourself through. And the fact that you are willing to raise your hand and say, "Yes, I'm going to run for office."
Gives you a privilege to suffer because you're you are suffering even more so to put yourself in the public eye on top of already suffering as a trans person because other people don't have that opportunity to do so. So, it's a huge honor and burden at the same time to be able to run as a trans person. So, those are the things you have to weigh out like so, so I know I just threw a lot at you, but like I literally give weekend long trainings on this particular topic about being trans on the trail. Um, but this is just kind of like a taste um of things to think about when you're running. And also, I would highly highly recommend um applying to do some type of candidate training program that kind of gives you the rules of the road of what to expect on the trail as a candidate regardless if you're trans. Like fundraising, like getting out, getting getting the vote out, talking to vendors, hiring staff, all of those things are part of it. and and so you should be able to get a little bit of training to kind of give you a little bit of an idea of how difficult it is to run for office when it comes to the mechanations of it. You're almost like a you're essentially just a startup when you run a when you run a campaign. Um and there's a lot of things that are involved in that. like, you know, I've raised um a little over $150,000 for my campaign, for example, and that money has to go places, and I have to make sure I spend that money right so I can have a good opportunity to win. So, so, so there's a lot there, Connie. I I'll let you respond.
>> Uh, no, that's kind of about what I was kind of looking to hear. Um, because I already do have my why. specifically just want to bring more clean energy to the community and want more green spaces and helping the our homeless population where I am. So, I already have a why, but yeah, I will have to look more into those classes. I've kind of looked at them here and there, but I haven't uh I haven't really put much thought into that aspect of uh >> yeah, >> basically being a political start up.
>> That's essentially what you have to do.
Um, and in the meantime, before you even start running, make sure you're getting involved locally in your community, go to, you know, uh, whatever local party that you're a part of, if they're doing events, um, you know, go to fundraisers where other political people are, start making friends. I I I say in in politics, relationships are the currency. Um, and and >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you want to go to places. You want to go and be involved in in in clubs. You want to figure out where the political nerds are. Start interacting with those folks because they'll give you the lay of the land of what is likely and who's in power or who's thinking about running. um it's important to kind of be involved in the political ecosystem of the people who are in in power now so you can kind of know what you're up against because if you just kind of just burst into the scene and saying I'm running for office but don't know the local political like like operation that is existing in the space you're going to jam people's toes and that people are always more likely to be more reserved about supporting somebody they've never met for rather than somebody who has already been visible in the community doing the work.
Um, so so make sure you're going around and talking to folks and being uh involved and and and talk to people who you may not like, right? You may be thinking about running against certain people. like go into the spaces that they are and start interacting with people in that space because in in the game of politics, you're going to have to interact with people that you may not particularly like. and and it's frustrating, but that's what you have to do when you're building coalitions is you have to try to make relationships with folks that may not agree with you like you know 70% of the time, but in those points where they do agree with you at that 30% you want to be able to push them into the position that you need them to be. It is a very very complex process. Um and so so it's a lot of things that you have to think about. Again, this is my life and I've been doing politics now for nearly 20 years. So, it is it is something that, you know, I put a lot of thought into, but I'm really excited that you're considering running for local office because that's really where the rubber hits the road.
>> Well, thanks. Well, thank you. That's one of >> all I heard.
>> Yeah. Well, thank you, Connie. Uh, Jack, do you have anything to add? I mean, I I would just kind of second and cosign like everything you said. Like my entire channel is mostly about covering politics and uh what I've observed is, you know, you got to you got to get involved in your community in a visible way and specifically in that political community because not only do you need to learn the lay of the land so you can make good allies, but those allies can also really be useful to you. like the other people knowing who you are um can open doors that you never could have dreamed would be opened to you and um like a focus on material benefits for any kind of campaign is going to be incredibly important especially on like the local level. Uh I think like we tend to see coverage on the national level.
Um and that can kind of take on like a sort of symbolism that isn't nec doesn't necessarily translate on the local level because on the local level, you know, people want clean water. People don't want, you know, their property values driven down by like an AI data center that's like creating a unsustainable amount of noise in their neighborhood.
you know, like people want to be able to live in their communities and like that's what they care about primarily when it comes to like local stuff. So, especially when you're running on the local level, focusing on what you can do for the community and how your policies are going to help people and being able to work alongside the the people who have, you know, in some cases been manning local uh level political positions for like the last 20, 30 years uh winds up being important. And also understanding like you need their cooperation even if they don't agree with you in lock step on every single issue. Um, it's one of the difficulties of doing politics, but uh, Josie was incredibly correct about everything that she said. So, uh, listen to Josie and, uh, best of luck. Uh, love to see a fellow motan getting politically engaged.
>> Thank you guys.
>> Yeah. Wonderful. All right, Connie, have a great rest of your day, okay? And good luck. And hopefully I'll see you see you out in the trail.
>> All right. And good luck to the rest of your calls today, guys.
>> Thank you so much. All right. Bye. Bye.
>> Okay. All right. Great. That was that was fun. It feel It felt feels like uh that was more felt like a work call.
It's like, "All right, >> time to consult on another political campaign. Let's go."
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No, I I I I enjoy it, though. I am I am a glutton for punishment and love politics.
um so much and I don't know why. There's just like honestly I don't know why.
But somebody's got to take out the trash, right? Somebody's got to push the sledge to the pipes. Um, so >> speaking of Hey, if you guys are watching right now, because I'm looking at the chats here, I'm seeing a lot of really big talk from a lot of very smart people in the chat who uh are are making some very big and audacious claims. I'd love it if you guys called in to try and I don't know, back any of that uh up.
Uh, you know, >> I I would love if you guys were able to find some bravery somewhere in your uh, you know, general vicinity and and call in and stand up for what you really believe is right, which is definitely not just rank bigotry.
>> No, couldn't be that. So, call in.
>> Call in at 720-6192288.
And again, if you're just listening, it is 720-6192288.
Call in. We're very excited to hear from you. Um, and you know, this is this is a a space where, you know, you could talk to actual live trans people. I I noticed that, you know, on other shows on the line, all of the transphobes go and talk to like the the cis men on the show. And you know, I like let's actually let's actually put your arguments to the test with people with lived experience of being uh trans people. Uh because boy, we hear a lot of big talk. Um as as uh Jack put it. Um so let's let's let's see how how that actually goes. Um great. So do you want to go ahead and take we have it looks like an advice call. Do you want to take that really quickly before um some of the other folks call in?
>> Yeah, sure.
>> Okay, great. So, uh we are calling uh so we have Aaron calling. She they from Texas. You are live on the line with Jack and Josie. How are you today? It looks like you want to talk about advice for trans folks who live with unsupportive family.
>> Tell us about it.
>> Yeah. Um I'm doing okay. Hey, how are y'all doing?
>> I'm doing all right.
>> Um, but yeah, I guess my question was, um, I'm a trans girl who lives with my mom and I guess technically my grandma, I see her a lot, but she's not in town all the time. Um, but I accidentally came out to my mom. Um, and she's not really she's I guess trying to be supportive, but she's not because she's religious, right? Um, so I guess my question was how does someone like me who's trans who isn't able to like move out yet? I don't have the money to.
>> How what's some advice to be able to get along or at least live cordially with my mom so that it's not just always tension, you know?
I I mean that's a that's a tall order because you know you have already kind of like that what what you've talked about is already attention and so like the fact that you've acknowledged it exists it it it's going to continue to exist until either you remove yourself from that situation which of course you know um or your mother like kind of begins to be more accepting and that, you know, may happen sooner or later, but you have no way of being able to know when that's going to happen. And um that's that's difficult. I I was in a very similar situation uh years ago and it I I I totally relate. It is incredibly uncomfortable and incredibly difficult and hard. Um, and I I sought to make it easier by continuing to, you know, do boy mode and like continuing to like be closeted uh in order to not rock the boat too much. And I, you know, in retrospect, I'm not convinced that was the best option. I'm not convinced that that was necessarily good or healthy for me. Um, >> and I I guess my advice would be like make a definitive plan on how you're going to get out that you can like take actionable steps towards and like move in that direction because then at the very least you have you're building momentum. You are taking action. you are expressing some agency and it'll help you feel less stuck and that will give you maybe a a bit more strength to get through that uncomfortable this uncomfortable tension, you know, that you you found yourself in.
>> Yeah. Um so, so Aaron, I want to just also say, you know, safety is paramount.
So, so you have to do what you can to basically like like Jack said, you know, take steps on how you feel. But, um, so I' I've had, you know, I have a, you know, my biological father who is, you know, complete jerk and, you know, completely like don't I have no contact with. I also came out when I was um 34 years old. So, I'm in a very different situation. Um I was already uh self-reliant and sustainable once I left um uh once I came out as trans. However, um at first my mother it was hard for my mother to kind of understand things. U my mother is also uh spiritual and uh religious. Um, but I I I want to ask you, so when you when you when you have conversations with your mother, is it pure rejection or is it a fear that you are going to be in danger?
See, that's the weird thing is that it feels like she like tries to accept it to some extent, but it almost >> Okay.
like she, you know, she says stuff like, you know, she doesn't hate me. She's trying to kind of work with me or wants me to be happy. Uh, like, but she's very dismissive of the idea of me taking like estrogen or anything like that. Um, and she still misgenders me a lot, which I've brought up to her >> how it feels, but she's like >> basically in her mind she's like, "Well, you were born a boy, so that's what you are. I don't really care." You know? Um, I guess it's like this weird mix of like her trying to >> kind of be accepting but also being stuck. And it's like sometimes I see her being more progressive and sometimes I see her going back to that stuck part. So I just it's for me I don't really know >> which one is like more like I it's hard for me to tell, you know.
>> Yeah. No. No. Um I think that's important. Um and and so so here here is like my thoughts and again this is my own personal experience um trying to mirror on to what you may deal with. Um so I always say like when my when I first came out with my mom I think my mom's fear was that my life was going to essentially be over. like essentially like everything that I've been fighting for career-wise was all going to kind of fall apart because she understood how bigoted the world is outside. So in and and you know in in her eyes at least in my interpretation she was be trying to protect me um from the world outside and and you know it was I always like to say the bigotry came from a loving place right and it's like a really weird thing to say but that's kind of where my mom kind of landed on. Um, it took her a while to get my pronouns and everything right over time. And I get it, right?
Like, you know, she has known you as, you know, someone used different pronouns for you for so long, it's going to take longer. Now, I don't want to make it an excuse, but older folks tend to take longer to get around the things that are very, very big and starkly different. Um, so I would give time and patience to that part. Um, I think in in a lot in in in my own personal experience with my family, I think once I was on hormones and lived my life and, you know, grew into the person that I am, it became very obvious of like, oh, this is just who you are, right? I think there is always a a grain of like maybe this is just a phase that kind of creeps into the minds of parents that don't want to kind of like know that this is an actual thing that sticks and a lot of that comes from different places right misinformation of like you know even even my mom is like is you sure this isn't rapid set on gender dysphoria I'm like I'm 34 years old like this is not something that happened rapidly um and you know, so she was just trying to give guidance in the way that she understood that she could in a in the way that she felt was love. Um, and and so there is a moment where it becomes untenable and you it just won't work.
Um, and then that is hard. But they're also patience and and being able to live your truth long enough around your family or if you do happen to leave and are out and then you know have access to your healthcare then then when you come back and you know come back as your full more authentic self of who you are and how how you feel externally as well as socially and like getting more comfortable in your own skin. um your family who love you will see it and and and if if they don't have unconditional love like my biological father then that is just kind of the way things are like but there are some parents that don't have unconditional love I'm sorry it's just not just not how it is um but I think that a lot of parents do and they have to get over their own internal bigotries to get around to the part that was the most important is that they love you. Um it's just but it's your choice to be as patient as you want to be because it's not on their timeline, it's on your timeline. Um but if you care about that relationship, it's going to take a massive amount of patience on your part and and it it's it's just kind of how I felt it. Um, but again, everybody's experience is different. Does that Does that make sense? I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
>> I think that does make sense. Um, I guess, um, I do kind of feel like a little bit of separation from them will kind of let them be able to process it more because I guess that's uh part of it. I feel like it's probably hard for my mom to process it when I'm still like here next to her and like she's seeing that my clothes are changing and all that sort of stuff. Um, so you know I and like you were saying when you're talking about boy moing I tried for a long time to boy mode. I kind of and kind of just dress androgynously now. I guess it's kind of the best of both worlds. But I think that for the time being I've been trying to be very patient with her. It's just sometimes, you know, since we're still next to each other all the time, we still have to think about like, oh, what are we going to cook together for dinner? What are we, etc., etc. It's I think there's more tension because she has to kind of process it in real time, you know?
>> Yeah.
>> But I think I 100% agree that whenever I go and come back, it will be different.
And and it is difficult to watch someone you love processing that big life change, especially when that process can be really messy. You know, my my mom when I came out was sort of supportive. Uh but she had to go through a period that was deeply uncomfortable for me where she would talk to me openly about, you know, feeling like her child had died. like and I'm like, "Mom, I'm I'm right here."
And she's like, "Well, >> that's what my mom does." Yeah.
>> Yeah. And and that's unfortunately not an uncommon thing for a lot of parents of of trans kids to go through kind of this period of like mourning the person they thought you were, I guess, the the person they'd built up in their head, which is not now validated by reality. And like that I I found it to be very very uncomfortable and off-putting to like experience that u processing like from like right next to her. And so I >> it I I I totally understand that that could be incredibly difficult to navigate. Um, and just to echo something Josie said, like that this is all on on your own time. You know, you you get to decide how much is bearable, how much you can take on any given day. And you have the right at any moment to just be like, I'm going to I'm I'm I'm going to leave the room, you know? I'm going to I'm going to go someplace else so you can have this time by yourself so that you know you aren't being put in kind of this uh you know smoking hot cast iron pan to like just burn >> for somebody else's sake >> because she doesn't need you to process the feelings and thoughts she's having and you don't have to suffer in order to try and facilitate that.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, that does make sense.
>> Yeah. And and time is like look, I didn't talk to my mother for almost a year and a half and it hurt it hurt both of us and you know it was it was something that you know she had the experience. I, you know, I even took almost a year to talk to my sister, which I thought was hard as well because I wasn't expecting that. But eventually, you know, with my in my sister's case, it was like she called me up and she was like, "I'm tired of being mad at you."
And I'm like, "Great. I don't want to be mad at you either, and now you was like, "Well, I always wanted a sister anyway."
I'm like, "Yeah, I've always been, right?" And and now she does this cringy thing that I I I love it, but I hate it.
But she when she introduces me to her people that in her life because we live so far apart, she's in Texas. She goes, "Oh yeah, I have a I have I have a bister and and she's like, "What's a brisister?" It's like, "Oh, it's my brother who's now my sister." And she won't say that to my face. But she says that to kind of be light-hearted about it, but my sister is kind of goofy like that. and you know and you know it's how she now comes around to it because she thinks that that's a very important part of my my um journey and our relationship is stronger because of it and you know and so so for me it's like how we are with our family is going to be unique to all of us and however you find that comfort within your family is a good thing and and you know if your if your parents parents truly love who you are, they will come around to it or you will be like my biological father who says that he has a dead do a dead son um and and will never speak of me and and is you know completely just his loss, right? I I really don't care at this point and and so but for my mother it's like you know she'll call me up now being like what is why is Trump doing this? what is the deal with the prostates or you know it's like you're obviously a woman this is putting you in danger I'm like exactly so so you know and but again I've been out for 6 years now and I am very different than I was 6 years ago when I was first coming out and and my mother didn't even understand that trans people can you know get medication and you know get the you know basic health care that allows us to walk through the world without hassle in a a lot of ways for some of us and and so and and I would even say for all of us we all have that option of healthcare and I think that a lot of family members don't understand that trans people are not the caricature on the right-wing meme or religious meme that they put out. It's like we're not we're not those people. And and so when they are confronted with somebody that is so close to them and they're like this isn't what a trans person is. This is my, you know, my daughter, my child, like this is this is this is and and and eventually what happens is that cognitive dissonance has to come to a reckoning and and it either goes in the right direction where where they get to keep their child in their life or it goes in the negative direction and you never speak to them again. But it sounds like to me, Aaron, that your your family or your mother at least is is on the right path because it the little ounce of that she's trying and those points where she where she doesn't hit the right name or pronoun can be just temporary as she is just getting used to it.
>> Yeah. So, it's not easy though.
>> I think Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I was >> Oh. Um, yeah, I tend to think that she's going to be the type who eventually accepts it. Um, and kind of like in a in a weird way, I I don't know how she's going to if she's going to be as like open to I guess I guess amicable is the right word as as your mom was. But I I feel like she's going to go down that that sort of direction. Uh >> but yeah.
>> Well, Aaron, the best of luck. I really I really appreciate it. Thank you for sharing. And you know, >> I I I I wish you the best and I hope um that uh the the best for you and your family and your relationship.
And I I would just add one one last thing like I really make a plan and like that has actionable steps to get you closer to a point where you can be independent.
Um because when you start feeling stuck and I I know from experience that I hit many points where I felt stuck. having actionable things that I could do helped me to feel unstuck and gave me hope for a pathway out of my situation.
So, um hopefully that can help you, too.
>> Yeah.
>> Awesome.
>> Yeah, that does.
>> Well, well, thank you, Aaron. I hope you have a >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. Take care of yourself. Have a great rest of your day.
Bye.
>> Have a good one.
>> You too. Bye.
All right. So, we ready for a fun call?
Uh, let's go ahead and take Dylan. He him uh 24 from Missouri. Um, and it looks like you think it was Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. Tell us about it.
>> Of course. Of course. And hi. What was your names?
>> Um, my name is Josie and we're here with Jack. Yeah. Hello.
>> Hi.
>> Yeah. Hi, Josie and Jack. So, um I believe that Jesus created us and that our bodies are not our own. Uh man and woman that it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. That Jesus created us uh that our bodies are on our own. Man and woman. And I believe that the devil is causing the confusion with uh uh man and woman. Like why a boy is saying that he's a girl and a girl is saying that he's a boy, especially at a very young age, like at a very very very young age when their brains are not developed. I believe that the devil is causing that confusion. Uh especially like for young children whose brains are not developed.
>> Can I can I ask you how is the devil causing this confusion?
>> How is the devil causing this confusion?
Um the devil is causing this confusion by uh uh lying.
But like so like literally whispering to children >> like children are hearing voices that >> telling them to to like transition.
>> Um so the Bible says that uh Jesus like he gives us the good word because like he's a shepherd but um the devil immediately comes to steal like our shepherd from us. So yes literally. But like when the Bible when the Bible says that, Dylan, do you do you think it means literally that like Satan's a guy coming to steal sheep? Like what what is the mechanism?
>> I guess I'm asking I'm asking how do you think >> the mechanism is that allows Satan to like interact with children?
>> Exactly what you said that he's a guy like Satan um immediately comes to steal the word.
>> Okay. So like Satan is like a like like guys like like satanic like like Satan is like going up to children and telling them you need to be trans.
>> Yep. Yeah. He's a he's a fallen angel.
Um literally literally.
>> So could that have happened to you, Dylan? Could that have happened to you?
Did like did did Satan come to you and say you should be trans when you were young?
>> Yep.
>> Yes. The devil.
>> How did that How did that happen? But howvil can you explain to me when you were young when the devil came to you and asked you to be trans?
>> Oh, okay. Um, uh, for me, my situation was that the devil, he caused me to hire prostitutes. So, when I was very young, um, like very >> when you were a child, >> very young. Like >> very very young. Like, >> you're already very young. You're 24 now. How like how young are we talking about here?
Like I don't even want to talk about it but like very young I was hiring prostitutes because the devil caused me to do that.
>> Wait so who was the devil? Who is the devil that caused you to do that? That's because for me it's like you know okay so Dylan and I I am I am trying to actually figure this out right because if you if you feel that like a devil a being came and is is going out there I want to know the proof behind that because that sounds like a very serious thing and that proves more than just you know the devil trying to I I I really am very curious on are you saying the devil as a metaphor or are you saying like an actual entity that came to you and said hire prostitutes.
>> No, I'm saying that your creator is Jesus and that there's literally an adversary of God and that this is the devil.
>> I'm asking you for in your ex in your circumstance when you hired prostitutes, did a literal guy walk up to you and say, "Dylan, you got to hire some prostitutes." Or was it some other mechanism?
>> No, like what you said, a literal guy.
And um this world belongs to Satan. And so >> what does he look like?
>> I'm very curious, Dylan. Like you said, it's an actual guy. That's a big statement, right? Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like what do he look like? Just so I can know if like a random stranger walking by is the devil or not.
>> Of course. So um the human world, the entire human world is in the hands of the Satan. So what does he look like?
The god of this world.
So, who is God's world?
>> So, wait, I thought there was only one God. I'm I'm getting confused, Dylan, because like you're bringing in a lot of different words into this conversation, right? And so, when we're talking about, you know, you're talking about lies and things like that, but like you're saying a lot of things that look, I was I was raised Roman Catholic. I was actually Pentecostal for a while. Then I was also just a spiritual religious person. I've read the Bible cover to cover and there's a lot of interpretations that happen when you when you when you think about these things. So like when you say there is a God of this world. I thought the only God was the God of the Bible, the Christian Bible. So So now I'm very confused about where is the lie.
>> Okay, let's say like I'm the devil. Like I'm a literal guy. I'm a little guy.
>> How do we know you're not the devil?
How would I know I'm not the devil? Um, let's say I know I'm a literal guy.
>> You just said you're like the devil's a literal guy and so you're a literal guy.
So, how do we know you're not the devil, Dylan?
>> Um, yeah. Let's say I'm the devil. Um, like you said, like a literal guy.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. I I mean like a physical like guy.
Like you could reach out and touch him like a human type guy. like maybe maybe a human guy but like has red horns and like a cape and a pitchfork. Like I want an eyebrow to look for and how to know I'm not talking to the devil right now.
>> Um how do you know you're not talking to the devil? Exactly how you are right now? Like flesh and blood. Exactly. That that's the devil too. Like exactly how you are. Flesh and blood.
>> Are you saying all humans are devils?
All humans are devils.
>> What? No.
>> Are you saying all humans are devils?
Yeah. I want to know if I'm talking to the devil right now.
>> Let's say I'm the devil and you're talking to the devil. Like I'm the god of the devil.
>> No. Just let me know. Like first of all, let's just start let's just start off.
Are you the devil?
>> No.
>> Okay, cool. So, >> how can we tell if someone we're talking to is or is not the devil?
>> We need to tune our devil detectors here, Dylan.
Your creator is Jesus and the adversary of God is the devil. So, how would you tell if it's the devil? Uh, by your creator, which is Jesus.
>> Well, I don't have I don't have a a direct communication line to that. So, so look, okay, so I came out as trans at at 34 years old. Do you think that a person like a like a or a devil came to me and and and whispered into my ear to make me trans?
Not not even like that, but exactly like that. The devil's a literal person came to you.
>> Okay. A literal person. I can tell you right now that nobody told me to be trans.
>> He wanted to be like God. And so like >> I guess wait to um >> Dylan, I I'm still a bit hung up on the previous stuff which I feel like we need to get past in order to talk about more more things. But like the Bible says even demons believe and tremble. So even if you're talking to us about Jesus, how do we know you're not lying to us and you are the devil?
>> How would you know I'm not the devil that I'm not lying to you? Um >> how would you know I'm not lying to you?
Um yeah. Am I the devil?
I'm I'm a man, not the god of this world. Uh how do I know the god of the human world?
>> The the god of this world could wear many faces, right?
>> Uh but like what you said, he's a literal guy. Like he's a literal guy.
>> Yeah. You said he's a literal guy. Yeah.
You're saying is a literal guy. Like so so can we identify where the devil is?
is, you know, I mean, Tucker Carlson said that the devil could be Donald Trump as the Antichrist because he he speaks in in, you know, relig religious systems. He he put his image of himself as Jesus. He he he holds up the Bible but upside down. He says he's religious but never goes to church. He thinks that he's going to hell. Like, could I could I interpret him as just a guy that's the devil?
Um, I would say to that that your creator is Jesus. And since Donald Trump thinks he's going to hell, like, um, I have so much faith in Jesus, like your creator is Jesus, too. And, um, if Donald Trump thinks that he's going to hell, then no, he's not. He's neither, um, like >> isn't that where the devil lives?
>> Well, wait, >> doesn't the devil rule hell?
>> The the devil might be here right now, Josie. We still haven't established that Dylan is not the devil. Like the devil is very devious and works in duplicitous ways. So I want to know how are we supposed to know Dylan isn't the devil.
He's being very clever right now slipping through these questions. And I I haven't tuned my devilar. Okay. Well, I Dylan, how how do we know you're not the devil? Like we need to establish that you're at actual authority that we can trust. Otherwise, you might just be trying to tempt us and trick us with a devilish trickery.
>> Am I tempting you? No. Um and what I would say to this um >> I mean you might be you might be tempting the long game.
>> Yeah. You could be trying to tempt us to not be who we are, right? Longm investment. I like for example I think a devilish thing would be to tell somebody who's happy with who they are like a trans person and then try to convert them to be unhappy would be a very devilish thing because because if I was created then I was created to be this trans woman here. So the devil would tell me to not be that to be depressed and to want to not be alive. So so for me that's how I view it. If Dylan, if if you are trying to say that trans people shouldn't exist, then that is essentially denying my happiness, which is what the devil would do. Correct.
>> Your creator is Jesus, though.
>> I regardless, it doesn't matter.
Wouldn't the devil >> The devil would say that?
>> Yeah. Wouldn't the >> Exactly what the devil would say?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Because the devil would essentially say that you're created a different way, so don't be happy.
>> Right. So, so do you understand the logic behind that? Because if you're trying to say that a trans person shouldn't be trans, but the trans person is happy being trans because that's who they are, it would be a devilish thing to do to try to change that person to be unhappy and living in a way that they're unhappy living.
>> Wouldn't you agree that would be a horrible thing to do to somebody like to make them depressed or make them no longer live the way they're they're they want to live as human beings?
you're making me say that your creator is Jesus, but also that um >> regardless of regardless of what is the creator because I I really I really don't I'm not interested in that conversation. My my my my conversation and what I'm interested about is wouldn't it be a devilish thing to do to try to tell somebody that is living their life happy to be unhappy because they're wrong living the way that they are to be happy.
Let's say I'm the devil. Uh making you like making you uh think that you're like like a boy when you're a woman and a man when you're a woman. Um like let's say I'm the devil. Like thing would be what I'm doing.
>> But how how is the devil making us?
>> Well, no. He said he said the devilish thing is to tell me that I I should be a man when I'm actually a woman. That's what you said, right, Dylan? Like, I'm a woman sitting here in front of you. So, so therefore, yeah. So, the devilish thing to do is to tell a woman like myself who is happy being a woman to be a man instead.
>> Let's say I'm the devil. I would want you to uh leave your identity of like what the creator is, which is Jesus, um to basically to belong to me, to belong to um >> Wait, no, that doesn't make sense. Wait, Dylan, that doesn't make sense because I wouldn't the devil in your characterization of the Christian God, devil, be happy with me being trans.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, so why would it not be a devilish thing to do to tell somebody who's happy being trans to be unhappy not being trans?
>> Uh, because Jesus is heaven and heaven is Jesus. And you will not make. So Jesus wants me to be unhappy.
>> This is sounding kind of like what the devil would say, Dylan. My devil is beginning to go off >> because because it would be because it would be really effed up, right? If Jesus was to come in and be like, Josie, I don't care how happy you are. I want you to be unhappy in the body that I tell you to be in. I wouldn't trust that Jesus because that Jesus is essentially telling me to be depressed and unhappy.
>> Let's say I'm the devil. I'm making you depressed and unhappy.
>> I'm not depressed and unhappy.
>> Dylan seem to know a lot.
>> You seem to know a lot about what the devil would do here, Dylan.
>> But do do you do you understand why the argument of trying to say like there's an actual guy being the devil coming in and and saying trying to speak lies into my ear, which is not what happened for me to be a trans person. I was born this way. like for someone to say to me and I look and I I've been told many times as a trans person that they're going to pray for me and that I was created a certain way and I'm living against that plan and all of that type of stuff. But that plan whatever if there was one would essentially for me to be depressed for the rest of my life or no longer want to even live. So for me, I think the loving thing would do would allow me to live as the person I am that would be happy, not depressed and sad and upset because because at the end of the day, why would a creator put happiness as a trans person on my on my body? Wouldn't it be better if he would not make me depressed if I was uh living the gender that I was assigned as a man?
Like that doesn't make sense, does it?
Why would Why would Jesus be so unloving to me?
>> Uh Jesus is heaven. Like heaven is like my creator.
>> That's not an answer. That's not an answer, Dylan. I'm asking you a direct question. Why would Jesus make me unhappy because for trying to force me to not be a happy transwoman that I am today?
My creator. Um, my creator.
>> Your creator, not mine.
>> No, he's in you, too.
>> Well, well, apparently he has a contradicting view, >> right? Because apparently your point of view of what Jesus created me is to be unhappy as as a man rather than happy as a trans woman, which is not my view.
I wait, Dylan. There's a man inside of all of us, >> the man Jesus Christ.
>> So, like trans men are valid. They're just embracing their true inner identity, right?
>> In Christ, >> you're just embracing your true inner identity. But we're not under the laws of the Bible. We're under the grace of like uh my creator.
>> That's right. Ah, I've caught you, devil.
That's right.
My devil dar never misses.
>> Never misses.
>> Dylan devil very similar. Not even a good disguise.
>> Like Dylan and look I and I we're not trying to to to completely like poke fun at you. It's it's the reality of the fact is like your argument doesn't hold up to the scrutiny of the fact that as a human being, as a trans person myself, I am incredibly happy. I'm a good person.
I I I try to help as many people as possible in my life. I and I I I'm very I'm very content with who I am. And the idea that >> creator is >> it doesn't matter and and the thing is I even even if I which I reject that but even if even if I were to give you that argument why would why is your because you're positing you when you came onto this call you were like you know you're created in the image to tell a man that they're a woman and and all of this and speaking whispers in the people's ears but that doesn't comport with the lived experience in the reality that me as a transwoman is a happy human being while when I wasn't a trans woman I was on death's door and and and not a a very depressed human being. So why why would it be in the best interest of uh the this creator even if I were to grant you that that I need to be unhappy for the rest of my life? Because for me I think it would be very devilish to say no you're wrong. You're supposed to be depressed because that's the way it was made. That's [ __ ] up. Wouldn't you agree?
>> I disagree.
>> You disagree. So you you agree. So your thought is that I should be unhappy that some other people can be happy as men or if they were born, you know, assigned male at birth, like they can be happy.
Or women that were born a female at birth, they can be happy. But trans people, they're meant to be depressed because we're supposed to force them into something that makes them unhappy.
That doesn't seem very very nice. That doesn't seem very good. Wait a minute, Dylan. I'm I'm just going to I'm just spitballing here. Okay. What if Satan convinced the doctors to assign the wrong gender?
>> Not a real thing.
>> What is the guy in this WORLD AND HE CAN'T convince doctors to lie?
>> Yeah, that's weird. Weird. I I just I you know and and so Dylan, do you understand why we it's like that none of this holds up to scrutiny because the lived experience of trans people all over all over the world.
>> A man cannot get pregnant.
>> That's brainwashed. A man cannot get wait Dylan. Hey, do you know what the Bible says about the church and its relationship with Jesus Christ?
Say that again.
>> Do you know what the Bible says about the church and its relationship with Jesus Christ?
>> Yeah. My creator.
>> Okay. So, you're you you go to church.
You you are a churchgoing man.
>> No.
>> No. You're you're not you're not part of like the the community that is uh one in Jesus Christ.
>> No.
>> No.
>> Dylan. That's literally heretical.
>> Yeah. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
>> Uh so so so yes, a trans man can get pregnant.
>> Um just because your definition of man is different. Like I don't understand.
Like but anyways, you were heret you were being very heretical there.
>> You are heretical.
>> Uh give me the floor. Give me the floor.
>> Wait. No.
I need to finish my train of thought. I I can't allow your satanic lies to triumph over good in this situation. I'm sorry. Okay. So, are you familiar with the term the bride of Are you Are you familiar with the term the bride of Christ?
>> Yeah.
>> What does it mean?
>> Uh one in Jesus. That uh that he by the washing of the word uh saved uh basically those that are one in Jesus.
>> Yeah. that by being part of like the church, the the the the spiritual construct of the church, >> you are in effect a bride of Jesus Christ.
How do you feel about being transed by uh the Christian Bible?
>> You're talking about that there's neither man or woman, Jew, or Greek. Um that all are one in Jesus. But I disagree with you.
>> God stole your gender.
>> No, you're talking about that Bible verse, which is that there's neither man or woman, Jew, or Greek, but all are one.
I'm also talking about the bride of the bride of Christ which is the church.
This is pretty well established in theological circles.
>> It's also directly mentioned in the Bible in the New Testament.
>> And and brides are women, right?
>> Are you not a bride of Christ, Dylan?
>> You're the bride of Christ. I'm the bride of Jesus.
>> I mean, I'm I am the bride of Christ.
I'm I'm a I'm a wonderful lady. Are you the bride of Christ?
Uh like you like you.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Okay. So So you are in essence a woman in this case, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Cool. I I Dylan, welcome to the trans community.
>> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Well, Dylan, it was fun. And you know, um, you know, we we we really got somewhere today. We understand that the devil is a just some dude. Um, and that >> a literal dude. No, a literal dude.
>> A literal a literal dude, which literal meaning actually like in this context, like some just random guy. Uh so so but anyways uh appreciate your call and uh you know good luck out there. Hopefully you know when you when you you know I still I'm still a little sused out. You might be the devil yourself. I'm not sure because you >> don't go tempting folks Dylan. Don't go tempting folks on our watch.
>> Don't we be whispering lies.
>> Am I the devil?
>> Am I the devil?
>> You didn't establish that you weren't.
>> Yeah. I mean I mean you do want me to be unhappy which is what I think the devil would want. So you you you were very clear on that that you want all trans people to >> be wants all trans people unhappy. Yeah.
>> You know you know a lot about what the devil would want. I you know a suspicious amount about what the devil would want.
>> Suspicious about so much for calling in.
>> All right. Talk to you later. That was fun. All right. Bye.
>> My god.
I let that go. We let that go on too far. But uh >> I know. But I was having so much fun being a devil detective.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um All right. Uh so so Jack, there's two uh people on there's 242 and then 253.
Um are you looking at the call-in list?
>> Uh yeah. Uh >> which one do you want first?
>> Honestly, I'm I'm happy with either. I guess 242.
>> Okay, we'll go with that. Um so we are going to bring in Bradley. he him um from Indiana um wants to bring up the counterargument that Jesus wants me to be happy. Uh so tell us about it.
>> Hi. Yes. Uh my name is Bradley. I'm actually from Idaho. Um I probably didn't >> Oh, Idaho. I apologize.
>> Yeah. No, no, it's my fault. I I I said it wrong. I said Indiana when it's obviously Idaho.
>> It's all good.
>> Yeah. I just wanted to clarify that. But so, um, the reason I just wanted to counter that Christ doesn't necessarily like the point isn't for me to be happy all the time or happiness. I know that in the fruit of the spirit, it talks about joy and joy can be part of happiness.
Um, I was able-bodied up until I was 23 and then I was hit by a car, lost my legs, became partially paralyzed, >> sorry.
>> Um, bound to a wheelchair and I really do struggle at times with depression. Um, because I know what I used to be able to do and I don't I'm not able to do that now. But I I found that Christ has Jesus Christ, his sacrifice on the cross, all that stuff has been a part of why I am still alive, why I do feel joy, feel peace, patience, all of those things.
And I'm not saying that you being trans the way that you were born, that you should still remain that way. Um, if if what you're feeling is truly something that you want to pursue and you find peace and joy and happiness in that, I do still believe that Christ is is still still loves you, still looks at you as his child. Like I don't believe that you're condemned, that you're going to go to hell, all those kind of things.
So, >> and I know a lot of people, especially Christians, come at you guys >> um very harshly.
>> Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that, Bradley, because the the caller before you does think that we're condemned, right? That we are we are we are tricked by a literal guy that is the devil whispering into our ears to make us trans. Um, and yeah, that was tongue and cheek when we were talking before. Um, but you know, even you know, there for for trans people and queer people in particular, we are thrown a lot of hateful rhetoric from people who posit themselves to be religious or Christian themselves. And it's it's exhausting, right? It's it's it's it's incredibly exhausting for, you know, people that, you know, oh, I'm going to pray for you so you can find who you really are. And it's like it's so disrespectful to the to the journey that I have had as an individual to get to where I am, religious or not. And so I do I do appreciate I do appreciate you um saying that, you know, who we are is our choice and who and we should we should deserve, you know, human rights because, you know, that's just who we are as people.
>> Yeah. and and I'm so sorry to hear about um your accident, but I am also happy to hear that you've learned to um you know be able to be comfortable with who you are and you know live your life with you know the the new reality of which you've had to to deal with for you know quite some time. And so I do appreciate that.
I I will say, you know, I am not a religious person. Like I said on the call before, um, you know, I used to be I was raised Roman Catholic. I was Pentecostal for a short period of time and then I was just like religious in a way that was spiritual, you know, and I've read the Bible cover to cover and, you know, and it just did not serve me.
But that does not change the fact that I'm a good person and I want to do good by my neighbor and be kind and you know loving to all and trying to support others. It's just that you know for me >> I religion doesn't have to be central to my life. Um, and you know, I just >> and and so for me, I guess like with that last call, it's like when people are trying to preach to us to say, "Oh, you know, you're you're this and you're a creator and Jesus is inside of you and all that type of stuff." regardless of how a person believes I I you know it's not it's not kind when when people are just like this is who you are and this is what you need to be and and you know >> so so so yeah but I I appreciate that.
>> Yeah, absolutely. And I I despise organized religion. I despise organized Christianity because it it has abused um what Christ has intended. It's abused the Bible. I mean, I have people coming up to me saying, "God's going to grow me a new leg."
>> Like, what? Am I a [ __ ] lizard here?
>> Yeah.
>> Am I just going to grow a new limb?
Like, where in the world and in the history of the world have you ever seen that?
Um, and so I think that a lot of times people who are religious feel like, "Oh, I'm doing the right thing by preaching to you, by judging you, condemning you."
Um, they're in in essence, I believe, condemning themselves. And a lot of times it's that hatred that they that's coming towards you guys is because part of them I think like want likes it. It's like a secret. you know, those white guys that are despised gay people, but secretly they're doing gay stuff. I think that can be very similar with a lot of religious people that if they were in that religion, they would probably, you know, go towards being trans or or those kind of things. And I think if we take the individual out of it and they're their who they are and what they've been through, it's going to take away any any argument or any connection. And all it does is is cause hatred and division.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um well, I'm sorry you guys go through that.
>> Just to add my my two cents here, you know, I I grew up in fundamentalist Christianity and like I I tried really really hard for a very long time to be exactly what it demanded of me. I was a pretty model >> uh character within the within the church and um >> ultimately like it was not sustainable for me to continue to exist that way, you know. Um and it it reached a point where like I I had to make a choice whether or not I would live and I chose to live. And I I know that that is very much the point of view that a lot of trans people are forced to come to uh because of the the pressures society puts on us to conform, >> right? And >> like I I I appreciate that um your religious belief helped you to find meaning in in your suffering. I I know suffering can be really difficult to navigate in particular.
Um, >> and you know, I don't share that religious belief anymore. Um, and I I don't I'm not compelled to I I don't have good arguments to gravitate towards your position on religious matters, but >> um I I I do hope uh you continue to learn, you continue to keep an open mind, you continue to grow because I think that those things are are paramount for for everybody as as we go through life.
>> Yeah.
>> And um >> very true. I I think I think like the open-minded open-mindedness you've displayed here indicates that you're on you're on a good path to continue to >> learn about the things you don't understand instead of condemning them.
And I I encourage you to just keep >> keep that open mind. It's really important.
>> It is very important.
>> Well, Bradley, thanks for calling in. I appreciate you.
>> Yeah. Thank you. And then please uh and again, thanks for calling in and I hope you have a great rest of your day and thanks for sharing your story.
>> Thank you. You guys, too. Thank you so much.
>> All right. All right. Bye.
>> Bye.
>> All right. I think we should go with uh 253 next.
>> Let's go. We're just getting them in there. Um hello. Uh this is uh the the trans show on the line. We have Kell he him from Missouri on the line. You're live with Jack and Josie. Uh you want to talk about uh kids shouldn't transition.
So tell us about it. Tell us why.
>> Well, it's not even necessarily because of the kids. It it's >> it's because I I grew up in Washington State, right? And in Washington state, I had many parents approach me and usually more religious parents um and they would tell me that their their kid learned about transitioning at the age of seven from their teacher, right? And then what would happen is the school would then take away their kid because they wouldn't let them transition, right? And this was more than anything an effort to take away religious people's kids.
>> Uh because it wasn't religious people's kids that were getting this.
>> Quick, why why would you have parents approaching you on this?
>> Yeah, that's a weird thing. how when and where this is happening.
>> I was a YouTuber at one point. Uh I >> I would broadcast their stories and they weren't abusing their kids. They were actually some of the most loving parents there were. And all they said was, "If you still feel this way when you're 18, you can transition, but right now we think that you're you're just being influenced." Right. because they never things until it happened and then once it h once these meetings happened first meeting they would be like oh the this kid is definitely trans and I I don't think it's quite that easy.
>> What was your YouTube channel Kell if you don't mind saying?
Uh most of the videos have been taken down now because of uh people striking against me, but it was uh Kelsier cluster or something like that. It was a Kelseier's cluster f I don't I don't want to cuss on your channel. I don't know if >> No, it's fine. You can't >> I don't know if you allow that, you know.
>> Yeah, you can you can cuss. Yeah, it's fine.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I did weed reviews in Washington. I did uh I did several things. Uh it was kind of a cluster [ __ ] to be honest.
>> So, so, so, so Kel, let's let's let's let's take a step back. Let's take a step back because like what you brought is you know anecdotal evidence which you know we we can we can bring anecdotal evidence from all sides all the time.
So, let's actually talk about the actual the actual crux of what you were trying to say about um kids not transitioning because the claim you you are saying is like the state is using this to take away kids from religious people which isn't actually the case. It's actually more likely that you know uh queer kids will end up in the foster program more likely than not in in most cases. So, so you're saying so I just want to get your claim right. You're saying kids shouldn't transition because they will be taken away from their families. Is that what you're >> No.
>> So why why should transition specifically >> because of the fact that there are voices currently on the market, let's say, uh trying to get them to transition for a political point. And I I think maybe later on down the line we might be able to do it, but right now the political situation is just a little bit too tense.
>> So my my question is so so we we talk you remember how you say it's not that easy. Um and so I want to agree with the point that it's not that easy. You can't just be like, you know, a kid puts on different clothes one day and then all of a sudden they're trans. Are you familiar with the gender um dysphoria diagnosis at all?
>> Uh I have it.
>> You have gender dysphoria yourself?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> You've been diagnosed by a doctor?
>> I will clarify that.
>> But you've been diagnosed by a doctor?
>> By a diagnostician? I I saw a diagnostician all of 10 times and they said at the end that I I do have gender dysphoria.
>> Okay. How old were you?
When you say you saw a diagnostician, what what exactly?
>> You mean a therapist or a psychologist?
>> Yeah, it was a it was a therapist. It was essentially a therapist.
>> And how old were you, Kell?
>> I was 18.
>> Okay. So, you were legally an adult.
>> Yes, I was legally an adult.
>> So, so, so, so it is a different situation for children. You do understand that, right?
>> Oh, yes. Oh, yes. completely different.
It should be completely different.
>> It it is right like it like we we have uh clinical practices for when a child is diagnosed um or a minor let's say is diagnosed with gender dysphoria. It is insistent, consistent and persistent um alignment with the gender that they that is is not with the gender that they were assigned at birth or their sex they were assigned with birth. Um, it takes years for most cases for a a young person to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. A teacher cannot diagnose a kid with gender dysphoria. A school nurse cannot diagnose a kid with gender dysphoria. A school counselor can't diagnose a kid with gender dysphoria. It is a clinical practice and and diagnostic that is done over the ca over the course of years before a child is given the clinical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Once that clinical diagnosis happens is when the medical system will kick into into gear.
If they are below the age of 9 or 10, depending on when they have the the the first signs of puberty in 10 or two, then they can get uh um hor hormone blockers or puberty blockers that are, you know, fully reversible. If they choose to get off of them, they'll go through their their normal um gender transition of of their, you know, of what they were born, or they can go on to uh cross- sex hormones. um if if they so choose. But the reason they do that is so they can have even more years, sometimes two to three years longer to make sure that they are 100% right. Now there is less than a 1% regret rate when it comes to gender transition when when this happens even for youth. And the reason this is is because trans community members want to be right about this. It is in the interest of the trans community to not get this diagnosis wrong because if it was always wrong then it would affect our ability to be able to to show that we are trans and who we are and we need basic healthcare.
So, so for the trans community, it's in our best interest to not trans everybody because that's not what everybody needs.
It's only 1% of the population that receives this care. So, so I still don't understand why kids shouldn't transition when there's such a strict process that's already in place.
>> Not what I'm seeing in places like Washington, Oregon, or California. That that's just what's the what's the transition complain about is teachers getting the hormones specifically for somebody.
>> That's not happening. That's not happening.
>> That's not happening. They would be prosecuted.
>> It happened in the few cases that I covered. it a few cases that I covered and I I even >> Is it anecdotal?
did an interview with a kid where he said that on day one when he first found out about transitioning, he was given hormones. And that kid later found out that he was not trans and >> he he will never be able to have kids, >> you know, and it's unfortunate because this is a >> as trans I'm a trans adult. I can't just walk up and get HRT. I I like I'm a trans adult.
I've been on HRT for years, but like if I run out, I still need to go to my doctor to get more pills, >> right? There isn't going to be a case where a trans person's just like, "Hey, here's an entire prescription for HRT child." That doesn't happen.
>> It's not true, Kale. And if it was, it would be a national story. Like, do you realize how scrutinized the trans community is? If that was true, Khloe Cole would lose her job because they found a new person to freaking grift off of. This is not This is not a true story.
What? Whoever told you this either either left out a lot of the key points of like blood work, diagnosis, like all of this type of stuff where like if a if a teach if a school nurse is giving medication to a child, it's because it's doctor prescribed health care. Just like a child just like a a school nurse can't even give a kid Tylenol without permission from the parent. So what you are talking about is a massive scandal and I have not heard any about anything about this. I'm a national trans leader.
I researched this for a living and I have never heard about this Kel. So I would be very suspicious about this story and I would have done a little bit more journalism to make sure that this is true because this is not I do not believe it's true and there's no evidence to show this is true.
Well, it's kind of hard to present evidence through the phone.
>> Where where's the news story? Where's the news story, Kale? Because because there would be a huge news story.
>> I don't even have my channel anymore. I don't even have access to that channel.
I've not even it would be a news story.
Would you not agree that this would be a news story that that that a school prescribed kids hormones?
>> I think it depends. I I think it highly depends because in that area it would be very hard to scrutinize than I did and it would not be published >> unless it had 100% proof >> because it's not true.
>> That's not something that would be published in Washington. You'd have to go out of state to publish it.
>> Tell first of all, okay, I I I need to I need to step in here, right? Because essentially what you're coming to us with is I know a guy who told me a story and like that's not compelling evidence of anything. And you know you live in this you live in America. You live in the same country we do. You have eyes. You pay attention to stuff. You know that if there was a story like this, every major right-wing grifter on the internet or Daily Wire host or, you know, Fox News affiliate or Newsmax or Outkick or an infinite number of conservative publications, >> all you've talked about are let me finish. I look at >> as nothing more than toilet paper.
>> Well, let me finish. Right. you know that if this had any even semblance of merit, they would start talking about this non-stop and they would never stop talking about it. And you know that because they did that to countless trans people. Like just think of what they did to Leah Thomas. They still talk about Leah Thomas. It's been like 5 years.
They would be talking about the case you're citing until the end of time. I don't even remember the that was that that that was like the swimmer in in college sports.
Like anyway, conservatives will do this till the end of time. They're not doing it with this story. And that, you know, I I don't imagine it's because, you know, it's so true. They just didn't discover the story. It's probably because the story is bunk. Unless you can provide more information. And like especially when you're saying like when this person was a kid, they they got hormones from their teacher. Trust me, bro. Again, like, okay, I know I know adults who when they were kids believed in Santa Claus, >> you know, like >> that that's not proof that Santa Claus exists.
>> Yeah. And >> it's not proof that Santa came down their chimneys.
>> It doesn't. And and Kell, it doesn't matter what state it happens in, right?
Like it like think about it. Washington state is on the cusp of passing an anti-transports bill right now. Like like it doesn't matter. It's everywhere in every state. Yes, they are because because of a ballot. Because of a ballot.
>> I haven't been there in three years. I haven't looked up anything for Washington State in quite a while.
>> So So, so Kell, do you do you know that if there was somebody that had that happened to them, it would be blown up all over the media because trans people are the thing that everybody's talking about all the time in national media when it comes to Republican politics and things of that nature. They literally like Donald Trump just signed a memo saying that people who believe in radical trans uh trans trans ideology or transgender ideology. Um we will find you and we will kill you was the last sentence on that memo. Like like this is this is the reality that trans people are under such a high scrutiny right now that if a story like that actually happened, we would not hear the end of it until 2028 presidential election. It would be all over, wallto-wall, all over. So, I say be more discerning on this because you just have to be a little critical because all you have to do is ask a question. Oh, really? What school was this? Where where what kind of medication was it? Where where like that's what you got to do, Cal. You have to investigate further just like we did to you when you told us this story. We didn't automatically be like, "Oh, wow.
That's wild." No, we actually said, "Okay, where is this happening? Who is this person? Where is the news story?
Why am I not able to find any information on this? Because it is something that is said out loud with no evidence backing it. Just like there are litter boxes in schools that that doesn't actually happen either. But people make it seem like it's actually real. The litter box story has more news coverage than what you're telling me right now. So, so how is that how is that a a a thing that I can take you in good faith and say, "Oh, that must be true because Kel told me it must be true." When we are two trans people on this call with you right now trying to tell you that we are trying to use clinical diagnosises on how kids and and and minors and adults can get basic health care for their needs. If it's gender dysphoria, then they have there's an entire clinical process behind that.
It's not teachers handing out medication randomly to kids. That is just that's so absurd.
>> Well, I guess I have to look closer into this. I'm having trouble understanding you. And I did understand everything you said, but it's it's cutting out in and out and in and out and in and out.
>> I'm sorry.
>> It's like >> Yeah. it. I don't know if it's on your side. I don't know if I'm making everyone >> I think it might be on yours. I think I think it might be on your side because I think it's on your side because nobody in the chat is talking about it and the chat would be going nuts if that was the case.
>> But yeah, the chat would be definitely going nuts with what I hear in my ear.
So, it must be on my side.
>> But Kell, go get the go get more information and call back.
>> You probably have more people to disagree with.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Thank you.
>> Call back another time.
>> All right. Appreciate >> looked into what you've said.
>> Thank you.
>> Appreciate you. Appreciate. Thanks.
>> Oh my gosh, that was wild. It's like that was that was the claim out of like that one >> kicked the hornets nest >> deep out of someone's ass. Um, all right. Like uh so >> 275 or 316?
>> Let's go with 275.
Cool.
All right, we have Joe, he him from New Jersey. You're live on the line with Jack and Josie. Um, what do you want to talk to us about?
Your phone may be asleep, so wake up your phone.
Joe, you there?
Hello, Joe from New Jersey.
All right, I'm going to return you to Q.
We might be able to speak to you in a moment. See if the phone issue fixes here in a moment. We'll try to bring you back in in a moment.
All right, we'll go with 316.
Let's do it.
Hello, Cody. He him from um Wisconsin.
Um, you are live on the line with Jack and Josie. How are you?
>> Hello. I'm good.
>> Good. So, you are wanting to call about how uh trans how not trans women are women and trans men are men. Um, so so yeah, tell us about it.
>> Um, yeah. So I guess maybe I lean towards a debut slightly that they're not because it's kind of just the idea that okay, you know, we can have a meaning like adult human female that you know, it seems I guess I guess it seems somewhat like simple and everybody um doesn't seem to like vary so much on the right when it comes to this definition.
But then for the definitions that are sort of proposed like >> or do you have us on speaker because it's kind of you kind of sound far away.
>> Oh, I do. Um Okay. Um give me one second. Let me try to um >> you could you could tell me any better right now.
>> That's much better. Can Can you Can you go ahead and start over on your argument, please? Sorry.
>> Yep. That's that's fine. Yep. So, it's just the idea that um I feel like on the right there's this sort of simple just adult human female view of woman um and on the left there's like a bunch of different meanings that I have found or encountered and just I'm sort of making so sort of like a noium inference like all of the definitions that I've encountered on the left I can like poke holes in them or they have counterintuitive um conclusions in their definitions. So, it seems like I just want to reject the less meanings of the word woman that are trans-inclusive, and I just want to stick with the rights. That's kind of where I'm at.
>> All right. So, um Cody, let's start then. So, is there a difference between sex and gender?
>> Uh yeah.
>> Okay. Uh what is that difference?
Well, um, in in my world view, it would just be that gender would be like categorization based off of like species and and age and sex and and then sex alone would just be, you know, the the, you know, of or like organized around the production of a certain gam that makes sense.
>> Okay. So sex is so so I I I for the sake of conversation, we'll we'll use your sex definition there, but let's go ahead and uh go back to your gender definition. Your gender definition had sex in it.
>> Mhm. Yeah, I did.
>> So, so, so, so, uh, could you give me a finer point on the definition of gender or not the definition of gender, but like how gender and sex are different?
Because if you're are you making the the claim that they are inextricably linked or sometimes linked or >> Yeah, I guess saying that they're inextricably linked cuz like in order to have a like a gender, it's always going to be like um you know it's going to be hinging on whether like you're a male or female and then it's also additionally going to be like the age and species.
>> Okay. So, so, so in your definition, you are saying that gender is essentially like sex. Correct?
>> Gender is like sex. I mean, you could say it's like it, but it's again, it's not exactly the same because Okay.
>> The same would be equals A and this is not A= A.
>> Okay, great. So, so when you say adult, human, female as as the word for woman, right? Like that's what a woman is.
you're still tying gender to the sex of female, meaning that there is really no difference.
>> I don't think that the conclusion that there is no difference follows from that. I think that I mean, you could say that they're similar.
>> So, so can >> I don't think that >> can a woman So, can a woman be an adult human male?
>> A woman cannot be an adult human male, though. But so so how is that not saying that sex and gender are the same?
>> Because okay, I'll give one example. Uh because we could have a female who's an infant and she wouldn't be a woman even though she's a female or we could have like a female dog and that would be >> so regardless. No, no. And I'm talking about human stuff here and I'm using your definition, right? Because we can talk about, you know, a child female is a girl like we I just just just bear with me for the sake of argument here, right? That that we're having this conversation. So if adult human female is woman, then that is essentially positing that gender and sex are the same.
>> I just literally don't think that follows. I think that they could be similar, but they it can't be the same because if they're the same, then they would be like interchangeable, but they're not.
>> So, tell me the case. So, tell me the case that an adult human female is not a woman. Then, if it's not the same.
>> Oh, I think those two things are the same, but adult human female isn't just sex. It also adds a condition of being adult and human. So, it's not just sex.
>> Okay, hold on one second. Sorry, my my headphones are going off. Hold on.
Sorry.
Okay. Sorry. Okay. Sorry.
>> I'd love to interject, but I want to let this play out.
>> Yeah. Let this play out. Okay. So, so let let me let me let me play it this way for you. Okay. So, if if for me when I say sex and gender are different, I am saying that they are different. So, the sex definition of what you said was the game production biological blah blah blah whatever that is, that's sex. But when you talk about gender, I don't use the word sex in my definition of gender because they are different. The gender is like my schema, what I think of a woman is in society. It's a social construct of who we are as a woman. So for example, when you are interacting with a human being out in the world, you're not you're not touching people's genitals to make sure that you call a woman a woman or a man a man. you are using the the social cues of what that person is is in front of you to determine someone's gender and how you approach that person. So therefore, it's not necessarily about the sex of the person, it's about how the person is inside of the social construct of the schema of what a woman is. So for me, when I think of sex and gender being different, I think about it in the sense of of this. So, so let let me use this logical statement. Okay, it's a it's a logical test. It's that's what I usually say.
So, tell me if you agree with the statement. Some coconut trees have coconuts and some coconut trees don't.
Do you agree with that?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So then the statement that I'm going to do a logical test to show that things are different is some women have penises and some women don't. Do you agree with that statement?
>> Yep.
>> You do agree with that statement?
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. So, so in that case, so so let me do this categorization for you. a a black woman, a curly-haired woman, a a white woman, a cis woman, and a trans woman, they're all types of women, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So, in in that in that in that like logical construct, a woman can be somebody that is trans.
Um, a woman can be somebody who's who's trans. That's true. Okay.
>> But I don't think trans women the way that you define trans women are woman, if that makes sense.
>> But you just told me a trans woman is a a type of woman.
>> No, technically not. I said that a woman can be trans, meaning that you have an adult human female who >> But the statement that I just said, and I'll repeat I'll repeat the categorization again. A black woman, a curly-haired woman, a cis woman, and a trans woman are all types of women.
>> No, there I don't agree now because now you added in trans women. And since trans women are not adult human females, but the rest of the categories were adult human females, I can't agree to that now.
>> But but but now now so that means that the statement a some trans some women have sorry some women have penises and some women don't. Do you not agree with that statement either?
I still do because I agree that you can be a female with a penis. Um, just because of sex and >> Yeah. So that's the reason the reason I say penis, the reason I say penis is the because that is a biological thing, right? That is the you were talking about the the the the production of gameamtes and all of that type of stuff.
So a a penis is the the the com the sex portion. The woman is the gender portion. So that's why I use the coconut tree as the logical statement because a coconut is different from the coconut tree. So So in my in my logical test, the woman is the tree and the coconuts are the gender. I mean the sex, sorry, the sex. So therefore, the statement some women have penises and some women don't would logically comport with the idea that sex and gender are different.
I don't So here's the part where I don't think I agree. When you said that like the penis is the sex part, but the woman is the gender part. I'm just looking at that all as like one sex part. Like you have the the woman who is a female and it happens to be a female who has a penis. So the reason a woman is because they're an adult human female.
>> So they're not different then. Sex and gender are not different. The reason I'm the reason I'm I'm pinning you down on this right now, Cody, is because the idea of sex and gender is critical to the understanding that trans women are women. If you don't if you don't agree that there's a difference between sex and gender, that's what the hangup is.
Because if we're having a conversation that is that we're talking past each other, right? If your idea of gender is a binary male female and my idea of gender is the identity of a person who lives in the social schema of the social construction, then we're never going to agree on a shared definition. So therefore, it is impossible to be able to have a conversation of what is a transw woman in the context of a type of woman because that's my belief, right? a transw woman is a type of woman just like a cis woman is a type of woman just like a black woman is a type of woman.
It doesn't it it's a categorization and that's why we use the word woman the way we do because if that group of women were in the corner and they were talking you would go, "Oh, it's the women in the corner over there."
You wouldn't say the women in the corner except for that trans woman >> because there would be really no way for you really to know, right? So that's why linguistically we have the word for woman which is gender and not female, right? That is a sex term. That is something you talk about with the doctor, right? Do they link sometimes?
Sometimes they do. It's a 90 99 98% of the time it's female or tend to be women. But in that 2% of the time it's not that way. And that's why we talk about gender being different from from sex. Does that make sense?
>> Sort of. But I have two points of contention. Um, so the first one is I I really don't think I'm seeing gender and sex in the same way because remember for it to be the same. I I'm looking at it just strictly the same like a logical sense like a equals a. I'm saying that gender equals female plus adult plus human and the sex is just the you know just the female part. Right. So that's one thing and then for the >> Mhm. Oh, I was going to say maybe to address this I can step in and try and give like an example, right? Like how when you're walking down the street and you see someone walking towards you, how are you assessing whether they are a man or a woman?
>> Uh it's just like an abductive inference. It's just an inference to the best explanation. So, like there's going to be different um I'm just going to say pieces of evidence for that they belong into certain categories like wrinkles is a pretty good indication that they're an adult. The human thing, it's like okay, well, you know, that's pretty easy to tell, right? They look like you. And then for the female part, I would just probably be looking at like secondary sex characteristics and, you know, other sort of fe things that are typically associated with, you know, females. Um, and I would just, you know, try to do that to make an inference that they're probably a female, although I could be wrong.
>> So, so you're operating off of like um, you know, basically uh, incomplete information, right?
>> Mhm. Yeah. To >> when when you are talking about like someone else, you you say, "Oh, she or he I just passed him or her." Right?
It is basically you are taking a bunch of cues that you have ascertained visually via whatever but you aren't like >> going up and like seeing what their genitals are. You're not doing like a blood test to see what their, you know, DNA, what their gametes are, right?
>> Mhm. Right.
>> And so instead, what you're relying on are a bunch of socially derived like points of notice, right? You are creating >> social cues, >> social cues, right? And you are using those cues to categorize the person that you just saw and walked past. And you're saying, "Okay, they're they're a woman, she, her, they're a man, he, him, right?"
And >> I'm I'm approaching this from a position of utility because gender is just a concept we use out of utility because you know 100 years ago people didn't know what the [ __ ] gametes were, you know, and most people don't ever get their DNA tested to know what their own chromosomes are or what their own gametes are. They don't they don't know.
They they go around they make assumptions based on their own physiology, what they know about themselves, what they know about their medical history, etc. But they aren't actually going out and testing that even for themselves, let alone for other people, right? And so functionally, I I would put forward that your definition doesn't matter in the real world. Your definition doesn't even really hold up under lab conditions, but I'm not going to go into that. Like what we're talking about when we're talking about gender is that, you know, tapestry of different social cues, different meanings that are attached to that social categorization.
And it's more complicated than just adult, human, female. like it it just the thing you're talking about is more complicated than that. In the same way that like if you look at a chair, a chair seems very simple. But when you start getting into all of the, you know, physical properties of what it takes for a chair to even exist in space on Earth in that room without falling through the floor and without like bursting into flames, like all of that winds up making the existence of a chair very complicated.
And it's not as simple as it first appears to us. And that's kind of where we're trying to go here, which is that your definition >> isn't functionally correct >> and it's not useful because you've effectively created something that isn't comporting with how anybody lives their lives or how anybody functions in the world.
>> Right.
>> Okay. So, I want to I want to respond because you said kind of a lot of things real quick. Um, >> yeah.
>> So, number one, for your example about people in the corner and how I would say, oh, like look at the the woman in the corner. I wouldn't say the woman plus this trans whatever. So, but we do this many times with other categories.
Like imagine if we had a bunch of like middle-aged people in the corner of the room, like, oh, oh, there's a group of middle-aged people talking over there.
>> And the way that you're determining that is based off of like those cues and the evidence. like you look at their face and like maybe they look, you know, somewhat middle-aged, like they have a couple wrinkles, the way that they dress.
>> And but here's the issue, right?
>> You could have somebody who is um let's say very old who just happens to have great skin care and they're really an old person, but they just look middle-aged. Now, just because they happen to look like the rest, and we would like functionally we would say, "Oh, look at the middle-aged people over there." It doesn't change the fact that in reality it's middle-aged people plus an old person in that group. Um, so that's one point.
Yeah, that that proves our point, right?
That's exactly what we mean. The the the idea of categorization and how we look at the world and people has nothing to do with the biological realities of what we're talking about. Right? And that that's why the idea that the sex is a necessary condition for gender is where the issue is because the sex is not the necessary condition for gender like it it is it is it it some like most of the time is part of the gender like like I said 98% of the time but for that 2% of people that it's not the same is why we have an evolution of language and understanding.
Right? A lot of times people use, you know, male and female and man and woman as something that's interchangeable. And about 98% of the time that might be true, but the reality is as we grow as a human humanity, we get better at describing things in words. Words are just descriptors. They're not prescriptive. So the idea that if you just say, "Oh, a woman is only adult, human, female." That is not my lived reality, Cody. Like my lived reality as a trans woman is different from the definition you chose to try to describe.
Your definition is not prescriptive. So, wouldn't it be in your best interest to be more descriptive in how you go through the world rather than trying to be more rigid in the way that words are are are created like and and used. Like it would be really silly, right, if somebody was like, "All fire hydrants are red, right?" But then the second you see a yellow fire hydrant, well, that's not really a fire hydrant. Yes, it is.
Right. And and so so so the I that that's what I mean. It's like what's the utility of ostracizing an entire group of people from the categorization of who they are?
>> Okay. Well, number one, um when you say at the end there who they are, I mean obviously from my perspective, I'm not I'm not granting that just yet, but um so I want to respond to the fire hydrant and then the chair thing that you brought up earlier, right? So, like for a fire hydrant, it wouldn't make sense to say that it's only a red one because you have yellow ones. Um, I'm not, you know, I guess, let me respond to the chair thing first, right? Because the chair example, it all I have to say looks simple, but it is complex because it is a cluster concept. Um, and the reason that I feel like we're justified in saying that a chair is a cluster concept is because anytime that we attempt or anybody has attempted to describe it with sufficient and necessary conditions like saying a chair must have X, well then there's always counter examples and those counter examples like seem at least to me like seem intuitive. Um so okay but then I feel like for women I'm not so sure that we have to change it to a cholesterol content because if I say that is the three necessary conditions are adult and female I don't think that I could be necessarily presented with a good counter example like any counter example I'm just going to claim like yeah sorry intuitively that's just not a not a woman >> but Cody you're waving that away you're hand waving >> and a couple of points because the example I was giving with chair was invoking kind of cluster concepts. But the point I was trying to make about chairs is that the existence of a chair is very complicated beyond just how we define chair, right? Like it's molecular makeup. It the atomic structure of all the component parts of the chair. Like when you start zooming in on what a chair is, it winds up becoming very complicated. Like when you start examining a chair just in isolation, it becomes wildly more complicated than it first appears when you just look at a thing and you're like, "Oh, that's a chair." And then you walk by it and don't think about it anymore. Right? And the other part that I would just throw out there is I want to invite an additional variable in here because there are other countries in other parts of the world that have more than two genders, right?
Like are you aware of the Hijra for example? Like they exist in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Tibet. They're all legally recognized in those countries as well as a legally distinct third gender.
And so I feel like once you start broadening like this idea that you have latched on to it really starts to break down because there are you know groups of you know some of the most populous nations on the planet that reject your idea of this binary between gender identities.
>> And it's not just it's not just us existing as outliers. It's also a overwhelming, you know, overwhelmingly more populated area of the planet than the United States even.
>> Mhm. I'm not sure if somebody else wants to jump in. I heard somebody >> I do I do want I do want to jump in really quick. It's like the idea that this this definition that you're tied to, which it sounds like you're very tied to this definition. Um, and and the idea that it could be more complicated, you kind of just handwave away. It's like, I don't believe in that, so therefore, I'm going back to my original definition. But the but the reality is the lived experience of people and how they experience gender goes beyond the three-word or, you know, a three-word definition that you are trying to prescribe to an entire community of human beings that share that gendered category.
Do do you do do you see why it gets a little frustrating because we're trying to work with with you Cody? Like the idea of like we talked about categorization, we talked about, you know, sex not being linked to gender and you you started this conversation with the idea of like I lean with the right and I kind of reject what the left is saying. And I think we've done a pretty good job laying out why we have the point of view that we do, which is the difference between sex and gender. And in your in your definition that you have, you explicitly make sex a necessary condition for gender, which makes it the same.
>> Okay. So sex is a necessary condition.
So I I'll just touch on the last point.
I'll work backwards. I don't agree that having sex as a necessary condition makes it the same. Like I literally just don't think that that like logically follows. Um but aside from that, I just want to quickly hit on some >> Oh, >> I I just got I got to stop you really quick because I don't I don't agree with your premise there. Right. Because the idea of the difference between sex and gender means that there's a difference between sex and gender. The idea that you're just saying I'm adding age and I'm adding you know you know human to the category doesn't make it a different word. You're just it's just it's just sex with extra steps. That's all you are telling me. Gender is just sex with extra steps. And and so for me that doesn't make it not gender. Does that make sense?
>> Not necessarily. I'll try to maybe provide an analogy here. Maybe this will be analogous. So imagine that as I said we have old persons and we have young persons right and a necessary condition to be any you know an old person or a young person is like a necessary condition for this is to be a human because I believe that in order to be a person you need to be a human but like because of the fact that I'm adding extra steps like I'm adding the old versus young part I feel like these are two distinct categories >> in the same way that like gender is adding extra steps to the sex.
>> No, no, no. Because because old and young are social constructs that are external to the to the person. Gendered categories are internal. Like like who do like that's what I'm trying to say.
The gendered category is what somebody is. Just like somebody who is gay, they are gay. Just like somebody who is trans, they are trans. It's not something we choose. It's just something that's inside of us.
Well, part of my issue is you mentioned how being old or young is a social construct, but within my definition of gender, which is, you know, woman and and men being adult human males or adult human females. The the adult aspect of that, being an adult is a social construct. I I I don't even know. Maybe hum some people might argue that being a human is a social construct, but for sure an adult is a social construct.
Again, they're still linking it all to sex, though, regardless about age and everything like boy and girl and man and woman or you know that that's all that's all relative. What I'm talking about is the gendered piece, the identity piece, the person the person who they are, right? That's what I'm talking about.
And that who they are part does not have to be connected to sex. That's what I'm telling you. Can I can I try maybe a different tech?
>> Um >> Um yeah, I had a couple other points to respond to by the way for what the other host said earlier, but you can go ahead.
>> Okay, thank you Cody. Um when you think of what a man should be, like what do you think of >> what a man should be? Um, no. What good what qu what good qualities should a man embody?
>> What good qualities should a man embody?
Um, well, this might not be the type of answer you're looking for, but like I feel like all people, including men, should be morally correct people. Like they should, you know, be truthful, honest, virtuous, those sorts of things.
Um, I'm not sure if you're asking me like what are the typical associations that people call >> Let me how about what what do you think people consider manly?
>> Asking um like people consider something manly like if it's like um if it's like typically associated with the male with with like the male sex. So like things like being muscly or um being brave. Um you you might like maybe you could even say hairy like biological traits those sorts of things.
>> Yeah. But could that those traits not also describe some women?
>> Yeah. But I would just say that these are things that are typically associated with the male sex. I think that that's usually what people mean by manly.
>> That's male sex. You said it right. No, those are men. Those are gendered things that you were talking about. We're not talking about sex.
>> Well, in my view, they're inextricably tied.
>> Exactly. Because they're different.
>> Cody, that's what I've been saying from the very beginning of the show. all the same.
>> But you you you are are continually and this is why we keep talking past each other because we're back to the original point of this call which there you do not see a real difference between sex and gender >> because you identity a equals >> the law of identity A equals A. It's it clearly is not A equals A. It's A equals A plus additional categorization.
>> So I mean No, because >> they are different.
>> You're No, they're not the same that way because you are still saying a a plus a plus b plus c in a parenthes in a parenthetical. You still need a to exist. So therefore, they're not the same. I mean, they're to they're the same to you, right? Because you need to have a necessary condition of sex to make gender happen. So therefore, they're the same because regardless of how many extra categorizations that you create on top of this does not change the fact that sex is in in is is 100% needed for you to be able to understand gender. That that's that's that's really what it comes down to. And and so I and I get it. I understand. I look, we've talked to hundreds I've talked to hundreds of people on this show at this point. I know. I know Jack has talked to hundreds of people in her own life, but the but the reality is every time these conversations happen, Cody, because I'm not trying to be be in bad faith here, right? Like I'm trying to actually like explain why a trans person or a trans like woman in this case identifies as a woman because that is not connected to their actual sex. Now, as a trans person, I acknowledge the fact that I was assigned male at birth, but that doesn't change my gender because my gender is woman. That is who I am. It's who I am, right? That's what it that's what it is.
>> I I'm also going to throw this at you.
>> I Yes. But then I would love to step in.
>> Okay. So number one, when you're saying that's the same because they both have this necessary condition of like sex is this might be analogous but like I would say that you can have electronic books, you can have physical books and both of them have the necessary condition of like possessing you know like written material. But both just because both have the necessary condition of possessing written material, it doesn't mean that like written material is the exact same thing as like an electronic book. It doesn't mean that an electronic book is equal like written material like like >> so now replace replace replace notebook with person and now you can say an electronic book is a woman and then a maintenance book is a man and then yes it makes sense because the people can come out different genders regardless of the sex that they were born. That's what I'm trying to tell you. So yes in your analogy the notebook is the person the human being and the words on the page are the gender because the words on the page are created and put on it just like the gender is put on the person. The pages themselves cannot be changed. So therefore that's what it is. Does that make sense now using your analogy? Well, respectfully, I I honestly still I don't think we're making progress on my on the whole topic of whether my gender and sex are the same. I I did want to respond briefly that >> you're making it a derivative. You're making it derivative. And that's what I'm trying to say. They're not derivative either.
>> They're completely separate.
>> It's a it's a plus b equals whatever you want to say, right? That's what it is.
It's not a plus a plus blah blah blah.
It is just two different concepts.
>> Okay, I I'm gonna step in because I think I can I think I can demonstrate this. Okay.
>> Are you familiar with the television show Thomas the Tank Engine?
>> Uh I I don't think so, but it I I think it rings a bell. What's the point?
>> Yeah, it like like it's a show about like trains. They have like faces on the front. the they're they're cute little stories told about the train characters interacting with one another. There's a guy with the top hat.
>> Um voiced by Ringo Star uh narration. Um it's charming. Um but a lot it's a show made for children, right? And >> the main character is named Thomas the Tank Engine and he's a train. Um, and my question is, is Thomas the Tank Engine a boy? Because somewhere hidden on that train, there is like male gameamtes and genitalia.
>> No, I think that's just personification.
I think that we're just using like um like uh what's that called? Like some sort of figure of speech when we say that they're a boy or girl. like in the same way that people Thomas the Tank Engine is a character who's a boy, >> right? I don't think that they're literally a boy. I think that that's just a figure of speech in the same way that when somebody like that's a conservative many times you'll say them you'll see them tap their boat and say she's a lovely boat. Like they don't actually mean like she they're just kind of like using you know flowery language.
>> Yeah. So they're they're making like an appeal to like a set of like social ideas around like what a man or a woman should be, right?
>> Which isn't connected to the sex.
>> Isn't connected to some secret genitals hidden away on their boat or on Thomas the Tank Engine, right?
>> Yeah. Correct.
So when we're talking about gender, we're talking about that set of social ideas that get categorized as man and that set of social ideas that get categorized as woman. And that also leaves space for other identities to be categorized as like non different flavors of non-binary for example, right? And that's how you then also can account for, you know, for example, nations like India that have official third genders that are recognized, right? Because when we're talking about gender, we're not always talking also about sex.
You might have that sex association, but that's not true of everybody.
>> Yeah. and Cody, I'm sorry that we I'm sorry that I have to we we do have to wrap. I'm so sorry that we have to cut this call short. We did have a pretty long call. I would love to have this call again. I think I'm I think I'm on next week as well, but I want you to do something for me as kind of like a little bit of of a thought here. the the lived experience of trans people and the gender and is is is very real to who we are as human beings like like Jack said and and just because someone doesn't agree that I'm a woman doesn't change the fact that I'm a woman. Um and and so so the reality is we have to have words that describe people's lived realities and lived experiences because at the end of the day if we do not have those things then that's how discrimination happens. That's how people start to say that I uh that people like myself don't deserve human rights because they want to make things the way that they see it in their world and make words descriptive. I mean make words prescriptive instead of descriptive. So I would love to have this conversation again and I want you to think about how gender could be something that is not derivative of sex. And I would love to hear how you think about that. But I'm so sorry you I'll give you the last word Cody.
>> Yeah. Um well I guess I guess the only thing that I want to say at this point honestly uh besides Yeah. I'll give that some thought. And um I I recognize that not everybody like uses gender just in the way that I use it. You're you're all right that people like use like gender terms for just referring to certain like social uh associations with maybe femininity or masculinity. But aside from that, I what I really want to get before I go is can I get either of you guys' definition of woman?
>> Um someone go ahead Jack if you want.
>> Yeah. someone who identifies with like a lot of the socially prescribed ideas around femininity, around womanhood, etc. And uh I I think that's that's about it. What it takes to be a woman is simply identifying with that. But what a woman is is going to change from context to context because different societies have different ideas of what a woman is.
you know, like our idea of womanhood is not the same as like what it was in 1600s France, for example.
>> And and my my definition is fairly similar of the idea that we have these social schemas of who we think a woman is and that's how we are perceiving the world. So, so the idea of woman in in my definition is a is a categorization of all of these different qualities that women that women have. So, my definition of woman is different from Jack's is it's different from yours because my my definition of womanhood is is individual to every woman and and every person essentially. So, for example, like my mother, my sisters, my my people I've looked up to that are women. All of that is part in my mind of what a woman is and how I live as a woman, as a person.
So, that's that's what it is. It's it's a very personal thing just like any I'm and I'm sure every woman would answer that differently to you, too. Like, if you asked a woman, "What is a woman to you?" You know, I think people will give you a different answer. And I think that adds to the complexity of like what the beauty of of womanhood. I mean, there's entire libraries written to feminism and women's history and what women mean, right? And and how how that exists in the world and the reality and the social social construct of everything. And that's what makes women beautiful, right? And and men and and people in general. And so to put us all in a box is kind of cheapens who we are as people.
Okay. Um, well, it sounds good. Uh, I would like to critique those definitions next time. I don't know when next time you guys will be live, but >> I will be live next week.
>> Yep. Every Thursday.
>> Okay. All right.
>> Sounds good. All right. I'll help you.
>> Sounds good. All right. Have a good one.
>> Later. Bye. Bye.
>> Bye.
>> All right. And I think we have a uh hard stop if I'm seeing that correctly um at in 10 minutes. Oh my god.
>> No. No. A hard stop on callers. Sorry. I I meant um well cuz Joe was still on the line and I wish he had stayed cuz he was next. I tried calling uh talking to him in the screener and I don't know if he ever solved his issue, but >> Okay. Um >> you can talk to Jay and give her the last >> Okay, we'll give we'll give Jay another 10 minutes then. All right, sounds good.
We'll just go in and finish off with Jay. she they pronouns from um Michigan. Um and you are live on the line with Jack and Josie. Sorry we only have 10 minutes, but get to uh what you wanted to talk to us about.
>> Howdy. I wanted to talk about a lot of relatively complex issues, but they can be boiled down simply. um living in areas where there are extreme red dots.
Um like so for context, I live in a relatively small town in a blue state uh or at least well it's a purple state if you really think about it. But uh do you have the notes um on on my call-in?
>> Yeah. Are you aware of the area and um of like of that particular area?
>> I mean I am not I I don't have a ton of uh background on that area. No.
>> Well, it's pretty uh weighty on the socopolitical stage in the United States. Um, and the thing is it's like heavily tied to the Heritage Foundation and such like that. It's >> just >> when you live in an area where it feels like everything contradicts each other, but you're in this this area where, you know, you have, you know, a lot of, you know, government officials and stuff coming in and and doing all these things that are just as scary. It's hard to have any hope, but at the same time, you get this whiplash because you'll have people who will validate you around you and you have it's like it's a it's a college town.
>> Um, and the college there's there's a an extreme wealth gap in between the people here.
>> Yeah.
>> That and I don't know if you are aware of the institution.
Yes, that mentioned in my notes.
>> I am now. Yes.
>> Okay.
How do you like I I don't know uh your two backgrounds in particular. I was recommended this show by a friend actually. Um but uh it living in a place like this, it's psychological warfare for trans people.
It's >> Yep.
>> It it how I don't know. It's It's hard to think about even going for any kind of local, you know, election or or trying to to to figure out like how I can make any impact at all when you've got the federal government at your back door in your backyard whispering in your neighbor's ear that you're the devil.
Thanks Dylan.
Your uh the previous caller Dylan the I'm sorry referencing because the devil did call the devil did call earlier. Um so so yes um so I I I I will I will um I will say this to you Jay and you know I you know I hate to say it like I'm for I'm 40 now so I'm essentially an elder in this in the trans community at this point but I had the honor to sit with many trans elders and um some that are no longer with us but legends legendary uh trans people. Um, and one of the things that is common that comes up time and time again is when a young person comes and says, "It's getting so bad. It's awful. It's scary."
And I'll use the words of um of Miss Major. Um, she's no longer with us, but I've had the opportunity to sit with her and share space with her. And what she says is, "Honey, we're still [ __ ] here. No matter what happens, even in the darkest times of our community, when we were um wiped out in and in Nazi Germany, when they when they were they we were in the interment camps and death camps as well. from the times where we have been hunted down by police uh to times that we have, you know, had very horrible, horrifying times in queer history and trans history. Honey, we're still [ __ ] here. We are not going anywhere. Living truly and proudly is the best weapon that we have. And I'm not saying that you have to be open and proud and waving a trans flag every time you go out the door. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that our community understands the violence. Our community has stood the test of time and it will continue to stand the test of time. We build resiliency. We stand close together. We huddle close to each other. We build communities that we can lock arms and arms. But resiliency does not mean invincibility. And resiliency means that you can take a punch and keep moving forward. It doesn't mean that that punch doesn't hurt. because the pain is real, the loss is real, the tragedy is real, but we will persevere because we're we're there's a there's more of us than they think and they will never find us all. And I say this as a leader, you know, as a as a trans veteran leader nationally, that they think they got all the trans people out of the military. Oh, they got another thing coming. We're we're still in there. Some of us may be hiding, but we're still there. And as soon as the military allows us to openly serve again, we'll come out in a big wave just like we did last time.
And I know it gets dark and I know it gets hard and and it's okay to feel like the world is against us. But just know that there are people every day that are fighting.
And sometimes it's you, sometimes it's somebody next to you, sometimes it's somebody across the world, sometimes it's somebody your next door neighbor, but in reality, we will still persevere and we will still be here. Um, I know it's hard. I know it's hard, but this next election cycle that we have, and I know politics is not everything. It's not. It's just one wave of theory of change that I have. There will be more trans people elected in this election cycle and there will be more trans leaders. There will be more doctors that provide health care even when they're not allowed to do so. There will be more people coming out every day regardless of how bad it is. So, I hope that helps.
Um, go ahead, Jack. I would love to throw in there that if you are looking for where to find hope, right, that that's in your call screener notes. Um, I I have found, especially as we've gone into a second Trump administration, like the antidote for feeling hopeless isn't to just like rely on kind of that old adage, hope springs eternal, because I feel like that's that's a lie, you know?
like it it doesn't hope is created. Hope takes work. And so one of the things cuz I I'm a political organizer, right? And one of the things I talk about on my show is that if you are feeling doomer, the ultimate way to feel safety, the ultimate way to feel hope and create that for yourself is to involve yourself in the efforts of your local community to organize other people, right? And I know, you know, I'm not that familiar with, you know, where you are, but I can tell you that basically everywhere in this country, there is some kind of local democratic group that you can join, some kind of local DSA group you can join. And by working together with other people that creates hope because our hope has always been in each other in people coming together and working for the common good and that's where we have to turn for it now when things start getting really bad. You know by building community and by being known by others and knowing others in turn like that's how you build safety. That's how people will be there for you if things get worse. And so my my advice to you, if you're feeling really hopeless and feeling isolated and feeling like you might have a target on your back because of where you live, find the other people in your community who are working to make things better.
You know, it it's like that old Mr. Rogers adage, look for the helpers and then seek to become one yourself because by helping others, that's how we breed hope.
>> So >> that's right.
>> Um yeah, >> Jay, what um I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
>> I um I appreciate the the words of wisdom. It's definitely good to to hear it because, you know, being in this area, you don't really hear it because it's you don't really get to connect with the trans population in the area because of how it is here. And it's like like you can it's it's mindboggling because you can drive like 10 12 15 miles away and be near somebody. But when you for instance don't have access to like transportation when you live in rural areas. It it makes everything feel so far away and like you have no hope. But knowing that there are people out there who want to help and >> guarantee it >> it definitely like especially um having you know you guys talking on this show definitely what I would I'll occasionally you know see a talk show or so like this and I'll I'll call in I think I've called in on one other show um but uh it's like >> and apologies Jay, we we do have to wrap up, but I will add >> that if you need help connecting with other people in your community. Uh if you go over to my channel, Riverboat, you know, Riverboat Jack on YouTube, and join our Discord, we have people in my community who can connect you with local uh organizing groups. So whether it's DSA or your local Democrats, um don't I don't want to leave you hanging or not sure where to go, but um I I our community will help you. So >> all that being said, thank you so much for calling in.
>> Yeah. Thank you, Jay.
>> Yeah, >> thanks for having me on.
>> Good luck out there. Yeah, no problem.
Bye.
>> All right, so that that's the show. Now we got to do super chats. We're going to read through them really quick and then Jack is going to defend her um position that she is uh >> have cocky. We do have a lot of supers, so we're gonna have to bustle through them. But >> chat, don't make me look bad now.
>> All right.
>> I got I got to throw it in there every now and then. Got to throw in some some spice and some shade. All right.
>> Unexpected right hook.
>> Yeah, of course. Uh, so, uh, 699 Canadian from Marine O'Hare 1369. I think we have difficulty with all sorts of identifiers and gender is one of them. Hash rock paper scissors. Oh my gosh. Ready? Uh, one, two, three. Shoot.
Shoot.
>> I lost.
>> Okay. You have to Yeah, it's okay.
Getting one on the Oh. Oh, I see. I see.
All right. All right.
All right, next one is Sorry, one second. I'm trying to get set up so we can get through these. Okay, here we go.
Thank you for the $10 from Mororrow 92.
How do I get over the belief that most of the supportive people in my life are placating me about my identity? Uh, build self-confidence. Like that's that's what that has to happen. That That's what that is. It is a lack of confidence.
>> Just got to build it.
>> Yep.
>> Tell yourself how great you are.
>> That's right. Because you are. $5 from Mara Feather Bender. The NRA has already put out statements against stripping trans people of the Second Amendment.
#team Josie. That is true.
>> That is true. Unlikely allies. Thank you for the $5 from Joshua Everett at 9887.
Because we have missed Josie for quite some time now. #team Josie. Hopefully we get we get some decent calls today. Let me know from the future. I think we did.
>> Yes.
>> Not the devil detective.
>> Yeah, I know. We did get the devil in here. That was that was interesting.
>> $5 from the jazziest dog. You know, as a diehard RBJ fanboy, I got to go with #team jack. Thank you.
Thank you for the $5 from Beaker Squeakers. You are a literal guy. You can be the devil. #team jack.
You are a regular guy. You can be the devil. He just kept on saying no.
Literally. Yes, we we are agreed as literally a guy.
Of course, the devil would be a guy though. Uh $5 from just wrench. Uh just wrenchit jacks. Uh, I am a girl and I can be the devil. You know what? You're right. That was really sexist of me saying that the devil would be a guy.
>> No, she said, "Can I be the devil?" And I say, "No."
>> Oh, >> women can't be the devil.
>> Oh, I think you know what? I I think I think some women could be the devil. You never know.
>> Maybe.
>> Break that glass ceiling, girl.
>> They're an equal opportunity tempter.
>> Yeah. Oh, that's true. Yes.
Is this me? I forget whose turn it was.
>> I think it's you.
>> Okay. Thank you for the 99.99 from Balthazar 228. I would trust Jack with all my trans questions. She's double transgender and transgender. #team Jack.
Thank you.
>> Yeah.
Bye. Dollar Canadian from socialist Maliki Malachi. Uh offliners robots in disguise. Hashte Jack.
>> Hell yeah. Thank you, Malaki.
Thank you for the $5 from Christina Gamerg. Joining the Democratic Socialists of America is a great start to politics. Largest socialist organization in a century. #team Jack.
Too true, Christina. Thank you.
>> And you you're the one that gets the point when I'm actually endorsed by the DSA. What's going on right now?
>> We we we do we do my community does have an informal DSA caucus.
>> Oh, okay. Well, that that that is fair.
I mean, I was the only candidate in my race at large that actually applied for the DSA endorsement because everybody here is so scared and I'm like, of course, I'll freaking get endorsed by them. Sure.
>> Hell yeah.
>> Working class solidarity.
>> Yeah, of course.
>> Um, Mara Featherbender, new meds must really be helping me so much. I look at both of you smiling and feel a wash of love. It's been forever since this was casual. #cle Josie. A glad glad to hear that.
>> Thank you for the $5 New Zealand dollar dues from Margie Fancy Pants. Trying my first call. System is rejecting it. I am calling from about unwarranted exclusion from the community. Ironic, isn't it?
#team Josie, you go, girl. I'm sorry.
>> Blame Jimmy.
>> Just blame Jimmy. It's >> Jimmy Snow. How dare you be transphobic like that?
$5 from uh Slifner 8. If the devil is most convincing deceiver, then the words of God must be his most intricate lie yet. Dylan #team Lordfree Me from Tis Call.
We tried. We tried. Thank you for the $5 from Alma LM38 in Oprah's voice. Oh god.
And you get a devil. And you get A DEVIL. YOU OVER THERE, YOU'RE GOING TO GO home with a devil. Devils for everyone. #teambo.
>> You deserve that one. That one. That that I'll give you that one. Yeah, that was good. Yeah. $5 from Joshua Everett.
No. No. Satan is a very literalminded person.
Team Josie.
I love it. Thank you for the $5 from Robin Webster, 1968. I am convinced that Dylan is deceiving us. #team Josie. Yes.
$5 from Legally Mod. Pleased to meet you. Hope uh you guess my name. Dylan probably. Team Josie. That's true. If if if there's ever a devil creature is like, "What is my name?" I'm going to say Dylan.
Thank you for the $5 from Joshua Everett 9887. If you rearrange evil Dylan D, you get why Devil Land. It's all connected.
#team Josie. Oo, dang. People are figuring it out, >> man. Devil's got to get on his game.
>> You've You've cracked the Dylan code.
>> I know. $5 from Green Garbador. Uh, I'm just imagining Elizabeth Hurley from Bedazzled whispering in my ear while I sleep, telling me to be trans. # Whoever reads this. Yes.
>> No.
>> Thank you for the $5 from Legally Mod. I often wish I had a man inside me.
Progesterone is a hell of a drugg girls.
#team josie.
Oh my god. So real. This is my god. $5 from Katie Ironfist 4389.
Fill in is a titanic shaped brick wall of circular reasoning. Yes. Yes. I think circular reasoning is being kind and charitable.
>> Domain expansion. Circular reasoning. Uh for Thank you for the $4.99 from Mikey Wallbanger. Sucks. Y'all got to teach [ __ ] how to research. Almost like they don't care about the truth and are just justifying bigotry's shame.
>> Too true. Mikey, oh my gosh, the domain expansion circular reasoning is is really is like how would you explain that? Because you know your power is only expanded by explaining the power.
Like I was just like oo it's a good one right genuinely be great.
>> It would be absolutely great. Uh $5 from um millennial or millennial um what kill is lying about Seattle public schools offering gender affirming care to students at no cost from ko uh k o news.
HRT requires referrals. Yeah, exactly.
It's so annoying.
Thank you for the $5 from Melaton Al Kell. Did you forget this is America?
Nobody is getting free healthcare. Stop believing fake stories. #team Josie # voteforsie #donate to Josie. Truth.
>> Yes, all of those things. And yeah, that was good. Nobody's getting free healthcare.
That's a good one. That's good. $10 from Aliia uh true silver 7052.
Of course, kids are influenced. They're learning um influence. They're they are learning. Why is the stuff you approve not called influence, but the stuff you oppose is kids should be allowed to experiment and grow and find themselves.
Too true.
Thank you for the incredibly generous $20 from Sleep Near8. Here's $1 for every $5 worth of super chats in the horizontal stream so far. Uh heart the peachy outfit look today. Jack #team RBJ. Thank you.
>> I think it's a cute little crop top situation.
>> I like the color. It's very nice.
>> It is. It is a nice color. It brings your color out very nicely.
>> Yes, it's nice. $5 from My Name is Timmy's dad. What are your plans as councilwoman to deal with Dinkleberg team Josie? Well, you know, we got to stop the Dinklebergs from Bergen. That that that's that's first step to to solving this crisis.
Thank you for the 99.99 from Darth Willow. Maybe the difference is women don't need to learn how to be women, but apparently being men is so complicated they have to learn how to be men according to current right-wing rhetoric anyway. Yep. Yeah. Yep. $5 from appli Thomas. The trains gender tank engine will always be the goat analogy. No, it's it's it's true. It's a good way to separate sex and gender. It it is.
>> And it always throws them for a loop.
Uh, thank you for the $5 from Elami Dios Gary.
>> Well, I mean I mean is the the trains do go into tunnels. So, is the tunnels women? I don't know what's going on there.
>> Fun fun fact. Last time I used this, someone left a comment about how uh one of the trains was specifically intended to be non-binary.
>> Oh, nice. Nice.
>> Uh oh, this is you, I think.
>> Okay. Uh from Greenman Dave, Joanna Wellie for Michigan State Representative and #team Josie for president. Yeah, great. Hell yeah. Thank you for the 999 from Balthazar 228. Interesting how no one is ever asked what is a man because it was answered in 1997. A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk.
Have at you.
$ five dollars from at that Nadellin or Na Nadlin. Naen, I think that's what it is. Uh, hashtag team Josie. [ __ ] yeah.
Marilyn, looking forward to Frederick Pride this year. Oh yeah, that is happening soon. Yeah, I might have to make it out there.
Thank you for the $75 Australian from Cliff the Thomas and Friends again. Omega LOL justice for Dr. Softhole. Uh yeah, that Uhhuh.
>> is that you?
>> That Yes.
>> Are you Dr. Softhole?
>> I I used I used a scrunchie to illustrate how we have a tendency to anthropomorphize objects and that's why AI is really dangerous. And I took off my scrunchie and just said, "This is this scr Hello, I'm Dr. Soft Hole." and then like just threw it out behind me and everyone now remembers the character Dr. Softth Hole and mourns her passing.
>> That's how it always happens. That's how it always happens. You You should have known better.
>> Every time it gets brought up though, it it just proves my point.
>> That is true. Uh tired calling this time for advice and didn't make it through.
Hope I can connect with y'all next time.
#team jack. Yeah, sorry we couldn't make it through.
>> We had a lot of some spicy calls.
>> Yeah, thank you for the $4.99 from Bramley CX. I'm not here for Josie assuming a win before the votes are even cast. #team check. That's right. Your hubris will be your downfall.
No, don't punish me.
Uh, Ali uh, $10 from Ali Truce Silver 7052.
Hey now, don't be dissing Mommy Satan, protector of the gays and punishers of the bigot. She's a legend and saved us from the god if he exists. # Keem josie.
Fair.
Thank you for the 999 from Balthazar.
You have to be careful when combining trains rights and socialist rhetoric or you get Thomas the Tanky engine. It's too too true.
>> Too true.
>> Thank you for #team jack.
>> It Josie has clinched the win. And the topic today is that >> Dylan is absolutely Satan himself.
>> Go ahead and give a a brief for people who weren't here when Dylan called. So, who is Dylan in this explanation?
>> Dylan was a man who called in earlier today to talk about uh how it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, and how that is a lockproof argument against trans people.
>> And uh I the only reason trans people exist is because the devil tempts them into becoming trans. And so >> we I I then asked him if he was the devil >> and we proceeded to investigate. We we we uh we we did some Satan investigations here tonight.
>> All right.
>> And he said he said it. Satan was a literal dude.
>> Yeah.
>> A literal dude. Charging up the clock in three, two, one, go.
So folks, I think we need to reckon with the fact that there was an incident earlier today on stream when uh an entity called into the show. Now, I don't know if this entity was spiritual.
I don't know if this entity was physical, but in in its own words, it was a literal guy. And I have to take it at its word. Now, this entity called itself Dylan, but it was quoting extensively, suspiciously extensively from scripture, telling us exactly what Jesus would want us to know. And I just have to say, when I asked it, hey, wait a minute. Are you Satan?
The amount of dodging of that initial question was incredibly suspicious. When I asked how I could calibrate my devil dar to understand if I'm talking to a literal Satan or a human being was unable to answer me in any kind of clear and concise fashion and instead tried to make arguments against trans people and why trans people deserve to be miserable forever. And I just want to point out that seems like an incredibly uh satanic thing to do. Someone who would tempt uh mortals into their own downfall would surely desire everyone to be a miserable forever, you know, trapped within a circular well of logic for all eternity like a very own Dante's Inferno circle.
And I just have to say at the end of the day, Dylan wasn't able to provide any proof for any of his positions whatsoever.
But, you know, just kind of just kind of seemed like a like like, you know, someone you probably wouldn't want to get a beer with. And, you know, that that's kind of satanic when you really boil it down.
>> I'm convinced.
>> I'm convinced.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> All righty.
>> Oh my god. It's so good. It's so good.
Uh, the Dylan lore is real. Sorry for all of you named Dylan, but every Dylan will be suspect of being Satan for now on.
>> Sorry about that, but the devil chose the word Dylan. This is your cross you have to bear.
>> Hey, >> I really I really wish I had like one of those Sherlock Holmes hats I could have just grabbed from offscreen and put on like it would have been perfect. It would have been perfect.
>> It would have been perfect. And join the Patreon because this is fun.
>> Join the Patreon. Do it.
>> Yes. device is
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